 Wednesday, February 09, 2005
How Celtic can buy their way into England
Since October last year Celtic Quick News has pushed the issue of Celtic leaving the SPL and moving to England and beyond. Our editorial position here is that this will happen, and that Celtic are currently in a position to make it happen by 2007.
This article was first posted last week by regular contributor NeilR as a late adjunct to another article. It discusses one of the options available to Celtic which could be used to force change.
How Celtic can buy their way into England, by NeilR
I have some tangential dealings with competition law in my work, and I'm told that bigger fish than UEFA are going to be fried in the next few years following recent developments in European law. How could Celtic take advantage of this and get into the English Premiership?
I've seen lots of people talk about this in general terms, but there never seem to be any specifics. Let's try to put some flesh on the bones.
There are various ways to structure a deal, but I reckon the authorities, both in Scotland and England, would have an extra-large headache if faced with something like the following (assuming MK Dons as a target for Celtic shareholders to acquire). There is a point to the convoluted structure, as I'll explain below.
1 Find an ambitious third club (maybe Gretna) willing to buy its way out of the lower leagues in Scotland.
2 MK Dons 'take over' Celtic with a share issue that leaves Celtic shareholders with say 98% of the club.
3 MK Dons directors resign, leaving the merged company's board looking suspiciously like Celtic's current one.
4 All Celtic's assets, including the trading name and players' contracts, but excluding its registration with the SPL, are lifted out of the subsidiary (Celtic) and into the parent company (MK Dons).
5 The entire previous playing staff of MK Dons are sold for whatever the club can get, or given frees, or sit out their contracts and leave. All backroom staff are made redundant. The stadium lease is bought out. All aspects of the club not connected with Celtic cease to operate.
6 The owner of Gretna (or whoever the third party is) buys the shell company that was Celtic, and follows a similar procedure, in this case moving players etc from the holding company (the old Gretna FC) down into the newly-acquired subsidiary.
7 The holding company of Gretna resigns its original position in the Scottish league, and keeps the SPL registration in its newly-acquired subsidiary (Celtic as was, now renamed Gretna).
End result from the fans' point of view:
a) An unchanged Celtic team playing under Martin O’Neill in the English League, but based in Glasgow,
b) Gretna playing in the SPL based in Gretna, and
c) The footballing entity called MK Dons FC going quietly of business (cue wild celebrations in SW19 ensuring that another corner of the globe is forever Celtic-minded).
I would love to see the FA/SFA/UEFA blazers try to block that deal. On competition and free trade arguments, the authorities don't have a chance. It's a basic tenet of EC law that any company should be free to situate itself and pursue its business anywhere in the EC. It's not even an interesting question.
The only sensible line of argument I can see for the authorities would be a rather woolly public interest one based on sporting integrity, the avoidance of conflicts of interest.
The problem is that with a deal structured like the one above, a lot of those points are answered before they raise them:
The entity now playing English league football but based in Glasgow would be the company formerly known as MK Dons, occupying exactly the same place in the English league it had before the deal. The only thing which has changed is the location of its stadium (oh, and its name and its strip and the fans and maybe a few new players! but legally it is the same company).
The entity called Gretna now playing football in the SPL is the company formerly known as Celtic - in the same league it previously occupied.
The league position of Gretna becomes vacant, allowing another ambitious club to join the Scottish league.
No unfair sporting advantage there then; nobody being relegated to make space for interlopers, nobody being unfairly promoted, nothing.
What about the UEFA rules against someone controlling more than one club? Uh-uh; simultaneous deals mean that never happens.
We're struggling to come up with an argument here; the judge is starting to look impatient.
Well, it's obviously unfair; these guys with lots of money have taken over a small company and put it out of business for their own benefit. What will happen to football when others do the same? What is to stop Ajax taking over Crewe? Surely that is anti-competitive?
Quite the opposite in fact. Welcome to the real world. Big businesses take over small businesses all the time. Are they abusing a dominant market position (to the detriment of the consumer, not the small company)? No? Is the football market a monopoly or oligopoly? There are a couple of dozen if not more firms vying to occupy the top few slots in the fiercely competitive European market.
Case closed; we find against the plaintiff. Go right ahead with your takeover gents, and as for you lot (this addressed to UEFA's lawyers), please pick up a free copy of the Treaty of Rome on your way out of court so you don't waste our time again.
A successful move of this sort would kick off an immediate and intense period of consolidation in football leagues throughout Europe. When other clubs do the same, as they assuredly, they will seek the best commercial opportunity for them.
Some may choose to take a different view; for example, Rosenborg might choose to remain in and support a Norwegian national league rather than buying into another structure. Whatever individual decisions are made, we will quickly see movement towards a European League, or perhaps 3-4 major regional leagues around the continent, as the century-old stagnation caused by national cartels is undermined. In a few short years companies will seek out the most profitable opportunities available to them in the European football market.
In practice, after the first move of this sort, the subsequent utter collapse of national league's defences against cross-border interlopers would mean a more direct move towards change in European football. UEFA would probably recognise the futility of fighting early on, and would concentrate on keeping whatever power they could within the emerging structure.
Meanwhile, SFA committee members would be free to waffle about the future of the New Galactic All-Scottish League (2008 champions: Brechin) as all medium-sized clubs merge into a new British feeder league.
But what about the fans?
Won't someone think of the fans? Well, let's think for a moment what will determine the extra profitability that will drive Celtic, or some other club, to set the cat amongst the pigeons? Ultimately, how many customers - sorry, fans - are willing to pay to watch or be associated with the new and supposedly improved product. If it's not good for fans, it will never happen.
There are a good few issues I haven't raised here, but then I want to stimulate discussion rather than flatten it with a 40 page business plan. What do you think?
NeilR
182 Comments:
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I can see what you are trying to say, but who's to say a smaller team (in your example, MK Dons) is going to just roll over for celtic, the directors then resign and leave us to get on with it? it would never happen.
Also, Mk Dons aren't a Premiership team, the are a Coca Cola League one team (Div 2) Are we expected to just keep the likes of Hartson, Sutton et al if we are not playing top flight football?
From a business sense you make good, well thought out points but from a common sense perspective the article is seriously lacking.
Chris
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Excellent post Neil.
I'm not sure of the whys and wherefores of Wimbledon's move to Milton Keynes, but it certainly establishes a precedent which Celtic might look to exploit as a plan B for their 'move' to England.
I'm not sure that it would be necessary to have the Third Party embroiled(Gretna, as suggested).It appears to me that if matters were approached from this perspective there are two issues which require consideration. One of them is a practical one, the other more abstruse/philosophical.
I am going to assume(I believe rightly) that there is nothing to prevent, say DD and chums(or stooges) taking over an English club. Similarly there would be nothing to prevent that club/company 'taking over' Celtic. Celtic(the company) resigns from the Scottish league(presumably with financial implications, which undoubtedly could be dealt with). The holding English company/club then renames/ re-brands as Celtic. Which brings me to the two questions(easy one first):-
1. Will the club be able to play out of Glasgow? Money answers that one. Of course Welsh/English/NZ/Australia.Blatter.All of the arguments have been rehearsed. If we were going to play in the 'Championship' then the monetary boost that these clubs would get would be huge.
2. What is 'Celtic Football Club'? If you know the history.... There are certain things that I believe can't change about 'Celtic'. They have to be a Glasgow Club. They have to be an 'inclusive' club. They have to have ties both 'historical' and present-day to Ireland. They have to retain a body of supporters who are broadly committed to these ideals and,one assumes, want that club to be a success in Europe.
As a 'Club' in that broad sense Celtic are stagnating. We can't have the levels of success playing where we are. England(or a euro League)is an absolute necessity. Will there be dissenters? Of course, but evidence from here and elsewhere suggests that they would be in a minority.
Celtic are more than a wealthy individual or individuals' plaything. Many of us 'own' a small part of our club. The tens of thousands who descended on Seville demonstrated that Celtic has an emotional bond with her supporters which might be unique in sport.
The people behind Celtic in the past have been greedy and unscrupulous. They are not 'the Club' any more than DD is the Club now. Whether DD is motivated by a love of money or love of Celtic or both is immaterial. He is smart enough to know that he has to have the hearts and minds of the supporters in whatever he decides to do. I believe that the vast majority of supporters know we now have to go to England and will support DD in doing this. It will not change the identity of our club but will surely make it stronger.
I described our attachment to Celtic as an emotional one-without being mawkish about it one might describe it as almost spiritual. Never does one feel it more that the big Euro nights at CP when 'You'll Never Walk Alone' rings out. The atmosphere at OF ganes is something entirely different. There are many, many Celtic supporters who choose not to go to these games. I for one would be happy to leave them behind to drown in their own bile.
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I have followed Celtic Quick News every day and have enjoyed the articles, but this one is just so laughable as to bring the site into disrepute. Even if this were to happen, Celtic's reputation would be so seriously damaged that the club would become an object for ridicule and hate. It is pure fantasy and I for one would want no part of it.
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If this scenario were to happen – would this then be the Celtic that my father and his father ect supported through the years or some hybrid thing flung together as an end to a means?
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I actually think MK Dons would 'roll over' as they are heading very quickly for league two.
I the biggest point against such a move and that it would be at least four years with no European income for Celtic and at least two to three years with almost no TV money. I doubt very much if we could sustain such a loss of income without Desmond (or whoever) digging very deep into their own pockets over those four years to make sure Celtic had a team capable of competing in the EPL once they got there.
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Mk Dons would not roll over.
Heading for League 2 is better than heading for extinction.
The idea is a complete non starter.
The only way the idea even makes sense is to take the 3rd team out the equation (Gretna), and celtic and MK Dons merely swapping league status, with celtic doen south and MK Dons up here. (Would they then be known as Glasgow Dons)
The idea is so ridiculous i don't even know why i'm bothering to comment on it.
C
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Dress it up any way you like, Celtic as we know it would become Gretna and we'd "take over" MK Dons and change the name. Who wants to be known as Celtic, formerly known as MK Dons??
Legally it might be sound but i'd be absolutely astounded if the fans backed this
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I'm completely with Anonymous 10:58 on this one on all his/her points.
I'm a big advocate of a move to a more competitive environment but we can't forget that this isn't just any business we're dealing with.
It's football.
More importantly, it's Celtic.
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Why is it that when anyone 'thinks outside the box' there are a queue of people('Anonymous Milton Keynes'usually) ready to dismiss their ideas as laughable? Listen up guys-the earth is round. If you remain a flat-earther look at the pictures on your front pages today of a 5' 2" woman who doesn't believe that some things are impossible. Ok-not the same-but the sentiment's the same.
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Forget about buying another team,ie.,MK Dons and working our way up the leagues,never heard such rubbish,get that out your minds,good in theory,but as noted,no common sense,a non starter,We have a great history. GLASGOW CELTIC will be going in the front door with their heads held high,after being asked.I have no doubts that Celtic will become the biggest team in the world,strong words but what I think to be true.
Can anyone tell me if there has been any talk on CP being enlarged to the full 80,000? Is that a correct figure?
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Great out-of-the-box thinking Neil.
After all, Celtic is a business and all businesses have a duty to grow any way which is legally open to them.
There is no real comparable situation I can think of in North America but professional sports clubs often are sold to different owners and moved to different cities.
While Celtic need not physically move locations this sounds like a feasible Plan "B".
Thanks for taking the time to put forward constructive and entrepreneurial thinking.
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BIG JOE, says
Don’t think this 1 will fly.
There will be public uproar, on every front.
The only way into the EPL is with the help of SKY.
Is every one 110% they want into the guffy league anyway???.
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The ideal move would be an invite to the EPL or a Euro League, but I honestly can’t see the problem people have with this alternative idea if the invite doesn’t come.
You ask if we would still be the real Celtic. Is the current club, a wholly owned subsidiary of Celtic plc, the real Celtic? Or was it the family fiefdom of the Kellys and Whites? Or the football club founded to help the poor and hungry?
Are we not really Celtic because CP was moved, then re-built? Would we not have been Celtic in Cambuslang?
Willie Maley, Jimmy McGrory or Martin O’Neil – who is the real Celtic manager?
We didn’t stop being Celtic when we stopped playing friendlies and joined the league, any more than when we co-founded the SPL. We won’t stop being Celtic if a bit of jiggery-pokery by businessmen results in us playing in the English League.
This is because Celtic is you and I, our parents and grandparents, children and grandchildren.
There may be legal and technical problems with NeilR’s scheme (I’m certainly no expert) but let’s not dismiss it without thinking about it, and certainly not for spurious reasons.
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Big Joe, says
Some points to add to my earlier post.
To me, the jury is till out on the EPL.
I like being in the champions league most years,
If we went 2 england, when next would we be in Europe, never mind the champions leagues.
I like winning cups & leagues, not sure about winning the english second division.
Just some food for thought.
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Canajun Boy – well said. What would be a dis-credit to Celtic Football Club would be to allow them to rot in the SPL, purely as a result of not doing enough homework, which is precisely what Neil R has done in this case.
It does strengthen the position of Celtic FC from even just a negotiating point of view if the EPL, and other factions – including the press, can see that there is more than one viable legal route to join the EPL. As Celtic supporters we feel strongly about the history, standing and tradition of our club, believe me no-one more than me. However, we are about to enter what I can only describe as a game where we will have to trust our board to implement a strategy to join the premiership. Peter Lawwell has identified “ a number” of different methods of doing this. Believe me this route has been discussed and consulted upon, the press know this and I ask that when they try and twist it to make it sound as if the board are trying to sell our soul for money by buying out another club do not listen. Please back the board, it is not the preferred option to go down this route, and I firmly do not believe it will happen, but an alternative is extremely important in these cases as I am sure NeilR will appreciate.
This is perhaps the most crucial period of Celtics History – we must get it right, we must be united as a support and show our strength. Pursuing a sound and strong corporate strategy just now might be un-nerving but will be worth it 5- 10 years down the line. Celtic will not survive as a massive club if they have to endure another ten to twenty years in the SPL in my opinion?
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Falkirkbhoy
Thanks Neil R for revisiting a old Daily Ranger story when we first made nosies about moving down south, about 10 years ago!
But I'm up for it, the sooner we go down there the better, because I can't wait to see Celtic start playing football again, beacuse this will happen won't it.
As soon as we say good bye to the easy to beat scottish teams with the punt up the park we will then start playing football against the top 3 in the EPL!! I can't wait.
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Fair points NeilR although i would definetely only back this idea if every other possible avenue with regards to straight entry into the EPL had been explored and proved unsuccesfull.
there would definetely be an uproar and we would find ourselves being very unpopular possibly losing alot of our worldwide appeal.
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been making noises about wanting a larger share of the TV money that is currently shared equally among the league’s 20 clubs. When it comes to negotiations on the next TV deal it is entirely possible that SKY will use the carrot of more cash to entice the big clubs to accept Celtic (and possibly one other, smaller Glasgow club) into the EPL. You can guarantee that any EUFA objections will be quickly swept away as it is the big clubs in Europe who truly hold the power nowadays.
‘Playing in Division one in England’, forget it. Celtic fans wouldn’t accept it.
Having said that, I’m in agreement with Big Joe in that I’m far from conviced that playing in England, even if it is in the Premier league, is such a wonderful idea.
JohnH
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I am in total agreement with those who have expressed their views negatively on this.
I'm not even going to comment on the idea that "all backroom staff (of MK Dons) are made redundant".
This obsession with money stinks. It's rotten to the core. It's just not right and it's not the Celtic way. Think of where we've come.
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3-4 years of playing through the english lower leagues or eternal damnation in the spl where we are consistenly pilloried and ridiculed by the biased media. I am sure people like DD and co have lawyers etc who know what the risks and subsequently success in such an adventure would be. DD is not a billionaire by chance he is an astute bussiness man who knows the company version of the bosman ruling is not far away. Uefa s arguement that football is a special circumstance will not hold sway in the European courts. I believe a restruction of the current situation is inevitable when ? certainly with our lifetime. If Glazier does succeed in his take over of Man utd where do the coolmore mafia then invest their profits it all points to Celtic and the how the share price would rocket if football is to reach its financial potential through tv income.Although Man utd earn somewhere in the region of 30 mill from the epl for 30 plus games they earn a similar amount for a fraction of european games. These figures might be staggering to us in the spl but take into account Madrid and Barca s 75 million per annum tv money then the way forward is clear.
man u v bolton
man u v celtic
man u v milan
man u v charlton
man u v barca
man u v wba
you takes yer pick
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one quick question...
assuming the accuracy and validity of the legal issues raised...
what's to stop, say, spurs using us as milton keynes dons then and buying us to guarantee champions league entry every season. punting a few players up north every year to guarantee the prospect of champions league qualification, then simply utilising us an a money making machine for european television revenues, whilst concentrating their efforts on winning the EPL.
we needn't even be called celtic anymore... how about "glasgow hotspurs." playing in white. probably in some faceless new town lego built stadium with 9,999 seats, celtic park having been sold off for fortunes in some property developers idealised vision of east end luxury living.
and before everybody says "they couldnae afford us..." really? celtic park may not be in the ideal location, but it's a fair skelp of land a few miles from the city centre, much like, oh, say cheapside granary. property developers would salivate to get their hands on that. say, £100,000 a flat, 4 storeys tall, 3 flats to a landing, maybe (easily) 40 blocks, 480 flats x £100,000... £48M. realising a profit of c. £20M.
add to that the likely prospect of champions league revenue for say, 6 of the next ten years (the current playing staff should be enough to get it for 3 of the next 4 anyway). probably revenue somewhere in the region of £30M all told.
some judicious player acquisitions (petrov, mcgeady and possibly one or two others from the aspiring ones, kennedy, marshall, wallace, maloney, beattie) should be enough to add another, say £20M in value to the deal... especially if the youngsters get "promoted" to the EPL team to simply bump their transfer values up.
so effectively that's £70M. bump off the cost of a stadium (for that, read broomfield, a couple of million) which can be offset against selling barrowfield, or even developing it for our new swanky east end we're planning.
maybe even keep the name and the hoops for a few years, loads of marketing potential there in the states for folk who won't get informed in the media about the somewhat sinister changes. another few quid for the coffers...
i reckon on the back of that business plan, i could easily get a bank to chuck £70M at me. and would it buy me 51% of the club? you better believe it. after i've got that, screw the rest of the shareholders, my word is law.
that is the nightmare scenario that sort of thinking facilitates.
maybe it's not so daft. there are plenty of unscrupulous property developers out there, and, for example, in barcelona city centre you can easily get a million quid for a flat. how much could i get for a flat in the posh suburb of montjuic? great, lets buy espanyol and move them to a public park in tarragona and build flats on the olimpico. florence is a beautiful city... bye fiorentina. in fact, they might have bbeen there since 1860, but munchen real estate values... woohoo, we're in the money.
it sounds silly, but it's just the logical conclusion of a "football clubs are just businesses" attitude. it's true that, in a legal sense, they are. and nothing i've outlined contravenes any existing law. you can't seriously think it's going to happen though.
to finish, my mammy always taught me "do unto others..."
if we followed your line, we'd be frankly no better than airdrie. some of us have loftier ambitions. even if it's only delusions of humanity.
we are supposed to be celtic, a way of life, not a profit and loss account. whether we go to england, or stay here, we should do it with our heads held high, not slithering on our bellies. as the statue down by the clyde to the glaswegian spanish civil war volunteers says... "it is better to die on your feet than live on your knees."
jock tamson
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Firstly congratulations to Neil in taking the time and the trouble to develop this scenario. By doing so I believe his intention was to stimulate further debate and to add to the proposition originally proposed by Paul as a re-formation of European Leagues as a means of giving Celtic the opportunity to improve as a business by exposure to wider markets so that in the longer term the club and the team might be improved and so that the club that we all love might fulfil its potential on a world stage.
Paul now feels he has good reason to believe this can be achieved earlier in 2007 in the context of the new Sky television deal offering a prospect of entry to the EPL. That possibility can be considered as Plan A whilst Neil I believe is trying here to offer a plan B scenario in what we hope is the unlikely event that the Board have not recognised that they may need one.
What is not surely in doubt amongst us all is the absolute necessity of Celtic plying their trade in an improved commercial environment as a means of so however woolly vague off the wall or extremely well thought out any proposal may be we really must be encouraging this debate in the hope that somewhere along the line the answer will emerge.
So for my views on Neil’s proposal.
As a strategy for the re-formation of a business I can’t immediately see
any obvious flaws. All the problems that are likely to arise from such a plan are problems that will result from the fact that Celtic’s business is sport where normal rules do not or have not been made to apply because of the existence of National Associations to organise and regulate the clubs. Therein lies the major flaw for this and indeed any other proposals.
To make such a scenario happen we would have to deal with both emotions of football followers at the club’s affected and the vested interests of other clubs. It would be impossible to achieve the changes Neil envisages simultaneously and even if that were possible the ultimate conclusion would be to have a Celtic club with a position in the Championship as they now call it but with no guarantee that they would be allowed to play their football in Glasgow. That would need the approval of the Football League. The Wimbledon move to Milton Keynes was blocked twice before finally being approved by an independent commission. The decision commented that "The commission, after a careful examination of the evidence, accepted that the club had no viable future unless it moved to Milton Keynes." Could that be argued for the proposal Neil makes? Maybe it could but it would not be a quick decision unless of course the vested interests of the Championship clubs believed there was a greater benefit for them in having Celtic in their league based in Glasgow. I don’t know what the rules are regarding gate receipts but if they were to see a cut of a 60000 crowd in Glasgow together with improved TV revenues that might alter there way of thinking. There you are I started off thinking it was a non-starter and now I’m beginning to wonder. Exactly what’s needed of others.
I believe there is really only one barrier to EPL or a Championship entry and that is the willingness of those within the leagues to accept us. Far too many precedents of clubs playing in other than their national leagues exist to ever argue otherwise. So in the end it all comes down to one thing the power of persuasion.
So based on Neil’s proposal how about an alternative but pretty similar scenario as Plan B.
Celtic acquire MK dons or any other Championship side. The side are re-named Celtic MK and play in green and white hoops. There will be no issues arising of conflict of interest via multi club ownership as neither of the two are likely to meet in European competition in the immediate future. With the right marketing the philosophy culture and romance of Celtic can begin to be developed in England. Support will be strong from the exiled Scots such as myself and acceptance and persuasion that we’re quite a breath of fresh air will commence.
Celtic transfer a strong enough set of players to compete in the Championship and achieve an EPL promotion spot whilst providing opportunity for the squad first -teamers who remain in the SPL to mix with the quality in the reserves to form the SPL side. Granted this side would have to compete in Europe but in what we would hope would be only one year.
Celtic MK win promotion to the EPL and begin to rake in the TV money resultant concurrent with the persuasion of the other clubs that it really would be a better spectacle at a 70000 seater re-developed Celtic Park in Glasgow. Agreement is reached. Celtic resign from the SPL and Celtic MK are re-named Glasgow Celtic playing in the EPL but based in Glasgow. The Milton Keynes facility becomes a base for one of the regionally based centres of development we can now afford being in the EPL
It would take longer perhaps and would need financing but that’s the same whatever we do. This way may be potentially less fraught and more acceptable to fans and clubs alike and it doesn’t need the others – you’ll know who I mean.
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Martybhoy says,
Afternoon Paul and fellow tims, I have a few points to post today and so forgive me for going over a few points already debated.
Firstly, Paul you will remember my sojourn to Barcelona at New Year where I met the sons of Messrs Shepperd and Hall. Their clear message to me was the Souness would be given another season of failure after this. The suggestion was that a top half (8th or 9th)finish would suffice. That was the message although we all know of the fickle world of football. My hopes are that Bellamy will love CP score a barell load and want to stay where he feel truly at home.
Secondly, was celebrating Mardis Gras in Dusseldorf at the weekend and decided to nip in to my fathers favourite shop McLaughlin's Irish Bar. I had the pleasure of the company of these bhoys in Seville and it was great to see them again.
Whilst watching the mauling of the Pars I happened upon a big German lhad who had popped in off the street, fancy dress the lot, to catch the bhoys. He was overjoyed to see the scoreline and gave us a shcok with his knowledge and passion for the hoops. He also commented that he comes to CP as often as possible and that he and 16mates had been over for the recent Motherwell game. My pooint here is, this shows how big we are, think how big we could be.
On a similar note, if that was Mardis Gras the world cup in germany shhould be an absolute corcker - what a laugh we had!
EPL - Takeover
Neil R - Thanks for your thoughts, interesting reading indeed. I think your points with regard to competition law are well thought out however, I'm not so sure I would want to pursue this strategy unless it was a last resort. It is a worthy contingency plan if our efforts for 2007 fail.
Annonymous 1.22pm - I'm not sure I can agree with your comments, I understand where you come from but like it or not, money talks my friend.
Pujol - excellent comment, here, here.
Paul 67 - Glad to see Fargo back although I've given up bothering who he might be and simply appreciating his snippets of info. I hope that indeed, things are moving in the background.
Paul, count Prophetofdoombhoy, jim62 and myself into any proposed gold. London or not we will be there!
Hail Hail
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Apologies Paul, I meant Golf, but what the hell gold as well!
One final point - Did anyone notice the phone in on Celtic TV? A reader emailed in with some news of a Chinese team moving to the Singapore S League and another Cameroonian team submitting a proposal this week to join the same league. I'll try and dig a bit on this but it may prove a barometer for whats to come.
Hail Hail
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McGraveybhoy
You have hit on the key point. This is a period of negotiation.
At the moment Celtic are asking politely to be allowed into the EPL. This may be enough, but when I am negotiating I like to do it from a position where everyone knows I am going to get my own way.
Buying MK Dons, Kidderminster Harriers, or Tottenham Hotspur sends out a signal to everyone concerned that Celtic will be playing football in the EPL sooner or later. The only question to be considered by the EPL is how much collateral damage will be caused in order to bring this about.
Neil has chosen MK Dons because they are unloved, however, we could just as easily buy a high profile team who are hard up/in administration/with greedy owners.
Also, don’t be confused that we would need to play through the divisions after resigning from Scotland. We could resign from Scotland after the other team makes it through the divisions, there are other ways of getting around Neil’s multiple ownership concerns.
I am running a Negotiation Skills course for some of my staff in Bellshill on Wednesday and Thursday of next week. If anyone from Celtic Park would like to sit in they would be made welcome!
As McGarveybhoy said; lets send a clear signal to our board and to the EPL that we are up for this.
Anon 11.38, Celtic Park capacity will be increased to 80,000 when we get the green light to move to England.
Agree with what you say Derbyshirebhoy.
Martybhoy, interesting points. At the Milan CL game I had a Jananese guy sitting beside me. He had flow over from Tokyo just for the game. I hope he got back to his hotel OK with what was the biggest Nikon as yet not stolen in the Glasgow night sky.
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Hear, hear for all the dissenters. Let's not confuse legally possible with ethically or morally acceptable. In our haste to embrace the promised lucre of the EPL are we being asked to turn our back on the things which define us...which make us more than just a football club? Certainly, more than a business enterprise?
Slow down. If structural change is inevitable (as the most voracious posters to this blog insist), then, by all means, let's benefit from it and share in the shaping of it. But let's not go down this grubby route.
Like others, I'm not convinced the EPL is where I want Celtic to be. That doesn't mean that I'm married to the status quo (or that I believe the earth is flat - why does everyone who disagrees with the site's orthodoxy have to be labelled an idiot?), but surely there are alternatives. Any structural changes will be far more widespread. I think I'd be more comfortable as a Scottish club (I'm proud of both our Scottish and Irish heritages) in a pan European league, than in a English league.
Regardless, let's hear no more of this buying MK Dons idea.
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I understood that a two tier arrangement to match elsewhere in the stadium over the main stand and the corners would only increase capacity to 72,000. I think this figure was mentioned by Brian Quinn in interviws preceding the last AGM. I think there are some issues with the shallower pitch of the main stand which means seating will be reduced there. Does anyone know for sure?
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Anon 1.46
The scenario you paint is frighteningly real. When a business loses money year after year it is someone else's opportunity to make money. It is precisely for that reason Celtic need to operate soundly in an improved competitive environment. If we don't do it for ourselves someone else will do it for us and we may like the end result even less. So for all those who think the current scenario is sustainable "wake up and smell the coffee" get your thinking caps on and contribute to making it better.
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GingerDoc,
For the Record-it's certainly not my intention to label people who disagree with the 'orthodoxy' of the site contributors as idiots. I believe-though he can no doubt speak for himself on the point-Paul's intention was to stimulate 'informed' debate on what, as Celtic supporters , we weren't getting in the tabloid press.
My point, perhaps badly made, was that just because it hasn't happened or no-one believes it can happen that it won't happen. Galileo was by no means part of any orthodoxy.(Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition!)
What I took objection to-I think legitimately-was the fact that some anonymous posters were quick to pooh-pooh what was a well thought out and well-constructed argument.
I certainly would agree with many of the points raised by the objectors to such an idea. Yes-we want to be invited to the big table(wherever that big table might be to best advantage). BUT there is nothing wrong with having a negotiating position which says-'Look we wouldn't like to have to do this, but we know that we can if you don't play ball.' Whatever it's demerits('grubbiness' even) sometimes you have to use what's available to you.
Either that or we resign ourselves to remaining big fish in an increasingly small pond with no prospect of European success at the top level. The game is changing and the directors(and we) would be neglectful if they though it was ok to stand still.
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The 80,000 comes from making the main stand a new three tier stand. A good idea as I think the main stand should always be the biggest stand towering above the other 3 stands. It would make the atmosphere even more intimidating and visiting euro teams running more scared than before.
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My thoughts:
While legally feasible the battle to complete the MK Dons-TYPE transaction (I think everyone is a little too focused on the team itself – it is only used as an example) could be very destructive. It could mire Celtic in years of legal battles; although ultimately winnable the costs (legal fees, lost revenue playing in a lower division, loss/attraction of playing talent) may be prohibitive.
Celtic can work within the system to create a plan, with Rangers, since two together will be in a much stronger bargaining position, that engages English league teams.
The take-over plan mentioned above can be a good threat. Celtic needs to complete business models, start discussions, and begin legal posturing. The message is, “We are coming one way or another,” then force discussions to create a win-win situation.
Ultimately, Celtic and Rangers joining the EPL is bad for 2 English teams a year. The two teams who lose spots in the EPL, granted there are European spot implications but I think it is less important in the first few years (chances of either team making the CL are slim) and UEFA will need to revisit the make-up of Euro competitions as the Celtic/Rangers switch will be a prelude to other changes in Euro leagues.
Celtic need to make the move attractive to a larger group of teams (all other teams in the EPL and the Coca-Cola Championship). A Celtic/Rangers move to the EPL means larger TV revenues for all EPL teams and 2 additional home sell-outs for the smaller to mid-size EPL teams. A new TV contract needs to be put together that is for both the EPL and the Coca-Cola Championship. In the contract EPL clubs ‘give’ more TV revenues to CC teams. This is attractive to the EPL teams because although they get a smaller percentage of revenue the pot itself is larger – which ultimately results in higher TV revenues.
In the new TV contract which captures the EPL, Celtic and Rangers and the CC. All EPL teams, get an equal base amount, except Celtic and Rangers which kick in ~10% of TV revenues (for the first say 5 years in the EPL) into a bonus pool for CC teams which is also indirectly funded by the EPL teams who get slightly less than the ~5% of the EPL TV rights money they get now. AGAIN this is attractive because it is a net gain (in real revenue terms) for EPL teams and it is ‘hidden’ since all these numbers are written into a new TV contract that is for the new EPL w/ Celtic and Rangers and the CC.
This bonus pool is split between the top 10 teams in the CC (but not the 2 promoted teams) and the 2 relegated teams from the new EPL. The higher placing teams get a higher percentage of this bonus pool. The logic here is that each year Celtic/Rangers being in the EPL will hurt 2 teams out of a pool of about 15. These 15 teams are the Norwich City, West Ham, Portsmouth type clubs – those who will be fighting relegation from EPL or for promotion from the CC. Celtic and Rangers take 2 of these teams’ spots by being in the EPL; to make it palatable you provide financial incentives for the larger group. As it now only 2 teams will get benefits of EPL TV money each year, after this deal all of these teams get a net increase in revenue.
The big carrot in all this is that Celtic have something every English team covets – a very strong loyal fan base in North America. The entree into this potentially VERY lucrative North American market Celtic provides EPL teams needs to be highlighted and marketed. Forward-looking English teams will see the potential this largely untapped market holds.
There are also lots of ways to structure league places, cup competitions and friendlies in the transition years to make it attractive to English teams.
Just my thoughts….
Finally, in response to an Anon poster - my understanding is that plans are in place to increase CP capacity to 75-78k. A major problem is that all admin, tour area, locker rooms, etc. will need to be relocated and there is no good plan for intern facilities.
The answer seems upgraded training facilities with some type of museum. Of course all of this costs and Celtic do not have the funds for the training area upgrade, let alone Celtic Park.
p.s. If anyone is still reading this ramble…this board seems to have people with lots of business experience/expertise. I am an American who just completed an MBA from a globally ranked business school (in the FT’s top 10 this year) in the USA, who is looking for a job. I would love to relocate to the UK and any thoughts, suggestions, contacts for jobs would be greatly appreciated – I can be reached at ctcnyc@hotmail.com Thanks.
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Sorry, why would there be rejoicing at SW19? The people who turned up every Saturday to support the MK Dons will now have to travel to flipping Glasgow every two weeks to watch 'their' team. This is possibibly the most ridiculous idea I have ever come across from a Celtic fansite and I for one am suprised it got the backing of whoever runs the thing. Celtic play their football in Scotland. While a significant section of our support may wet themselves at the possibility of joining the EPL (and I must admit the thought of it does sound appealing) I don't think it wise to set up our entire support for what could be (most probably) a pipedream.
I am not a killjoy or a pessimist, I simply think that the effect of having our hopes constantly raised and dashed has led to the current apathy towards the squad and this can only get worse. If you promise someone the Man Utds and Chelseas in two years time will they still turn up in five years if all that is on offer is the Dunfermlines and Livingstons?
I would personally be in favour of a switch but am not as niave to think it a certainty. I think that you as a site are wrong to promote it as such.
Yours in Celtic
Conor McGinley, Belfast
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Paul
Love the site. Congratulations to you and all of your subscribers.
I am excited re the possibility of having a golfing get together.
Count me and my pals in.
Would'nt it be a kick if Fargo did show.
Speaking of Fargo. I have a question, for everybody.
What's a "Mulligan"?
Glengharry
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I was reading an (old)interview with Billy McNeill last night where he stated that even when he was playing the game,he always felt that Celtic should have been playing down in England as that was where the players would be tested.
The opportunity is here now to make the move to the EPL that Billy McNeill recognised was required forty years ago.
Neil's post was,by his own admission,designed to provoke debate.On a personal level,it would not be my first choice but if it meant Celtic getting to the EPL I would accept it.
My dream for Celtic is to see us win the CL as I wasn't alive to see the first one.To do that,we need to be playing in an environment that allows us to attract the best players in the world while paying them well for the privilege.That environment is not Scotland.
BankieBhoy
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Anyone for a Plan C or D?
Plan C
In my mind, if its going to happen at all and DD seems to thinks so, it will probably come from a splinter group setting up for want of a better name a..."super premiership".... The likes of Chelsea and Man U are already bored with the Norwich and the West broms of this world and a top ten plus the OF would be more appealing.....
What are the main barriers to this apart from turkeys voting for Christmas.....
Plan D
A British Cup but played on a group stage....
Get rid of the cuckoo cup/Carling cup reduce league sizes/games and play British cup games instead... Make four teams from the SPL get in the cup therefore allowing a third and forth team to become more able to compete with the OF......
I would prefer to stay in the SPL but on a competitive basis.....I stayed in London long enough to realise that the OF in EPL will probably mean a return to hooliganism.
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Well done to NeilR, whose carefully researched thesis on the way to riches certainly knocked the increasingly unseemly critique of Davie Hay off the front pages. Unfortunately in my humble and uninformed opinion, that is the best I can say about his plan. Too many twists and what ifs about it and in comon with other contributors, I can't see us retaining the quality of players required to progress to the Promised Land.
It may be an over simplification but I think the engine for change is the path which I perceive DD to favour. That is to challenge the cartel that IS the EPL,i.e. collective deal for TV rights. Like restriction of trade, this is also contrary to EU law and without this bargaining position, the EPl ceases to have any justification to exist. Already in Europe, clubs have their own TV rights with obviously the more popular ones having access to the bigger share of the pie. Sky are aware of this as DD has already, prior to the last TV deal, fired a warning shot accross their bows and EU are monitoring the situation.Therefore it is television rights alone,which means BSKYB, which will force the change. In the meantime,Paul, you have suggested that we focus the board's mind on this matter. I have advocated in other channels for cancelling the Sky Sports package in order to let them know that I, for one, am not happy to subsidise the likes of Rushden and Diamonds, Chelsea et al whilst we are outside with our noses pressed against the window, like wee Burkie's fans.
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As a shareholder and life long Celtic supporter, i`m sick of hearing and reading all this sh*te about us moving to a different league. All that this is about is making Desmond and O`Neill even richer....at the expense of the ordinary Celtic supporters. The SPL is NOT holding us back in a football sense whatsoever, you only need to look at the likes of Dynamo Kiev, Porto etc to realise that. What we need is to get rid of money grabbing a*seholes like Desmond(where was he in 1994 ??), and his mouthpiece O`Neill, who was NOT a football appointment..remember the board had actually appointed Guus Hiddink (remember what he did with S.Korea ??). We need a good manager who actually coaches, players who want to win medals rather than take the ridiculous EPL wages, then extend the capacity of the stadium to 80,000 to bring in far more money. We`re guaranteed European football at the moment, IMO if we go to the EPL under O`Neill, we`ll be the new Leicester City. We should stay where we belong but have a massive clear out...best thing for the fans. Hail Hail!!!!!!!!!!!
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As I have previously stated, I would love to see us playing in a more competitive league;
the EPL being the most obvious choice, outside the SPL.
NeilR – Usually your posts make a lot of sense, but this…..
Pipe. Dream. Pipedream.
Far too convoluted. There are too many assumptions made, and we all know about assumptions.
Never assume that anyone will roll over and die easily.
This kind of mind set is against everything that epitomizes Celtic- Very Murray-esque in my opinion.
However, in going with the flow….Derbyshirebhoy thoughts make better sense, if we have to along this path.
I do believe that realistic entry to another league (i.e. EPL) will require Sky’s consent and help; Sky being the only media entity with enough clout to push this kind of issue. A sweetener to the other clubs will be required as jamiecis has stated if we join the existing English league structure.
However Jamie’s model could be bypassed if the present English league structure was made redundant.
A Super League possibly, outside the confines of national identities and institutions.
When all is said and done – I never want us to leave Paradise.
Would love to see 80,000 of the Tic all together in song.
Three tiers for the main stand has been mooted before.
Will our pitch be able to receive enough sunlight if that happens, or will the stand be further away from the pitch?
Harking back…
Paul - Did Davie Hay steal your toffee apple or something?
Thought he was a great player for us. Celtic weren’t terrific under his leadership, but the team certainly could win and thrill at the same time (something that is often lacking at present). Celtics old troubles stemmed from certain families that would have let us go bankrupt.
At Dunfermiline he has just lost his established strike force – how easy would it be without ours? He also has to report to Chairman Windbag. Give the man a break. DH is a Celtic man when all is said and done.
Hail! Hail!
HF
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Conor McGinley
Our board think it is possible, our manager think it is possible, there have been many valid arguments on the legal and commercial reasons why it should happen.
Instead of dismissing not only the argument, but the site as well, how about taking on the arguments made and pointing out why they will not happen.
This is what is missing from the people who tell us not to look for change, it is also what the board, Martin O’Neill and many fans have missed as well.
Thanks Glengharry, email me contact details and I will send you details of the golf when we get something organised 1967@lisbonlions.com
Rumoid, Plan C or something wider is most likely to happen.
Tom the Tim
Couple of points of confusion, there would be no need for Celtic to leave Scotland several years before competing for entrance to the Premiership, so retaining players will not be a problem.
As several have said. This is a clear legal route. It is affordable and its adoption will be an enormous agent for change.
The collective TV deal will not happen again, and there will be an opportunity to gain access when the current one expires. As I said above, however, I don’t like going into negotiations with the other guy holding all the aces.
If we act in the manner Neil has described, we will have the opportunity to force the issue. The fact alone might be enough to smooth our way in come 2007.
Half Full
If it all sounds a bit complex let me reduce it to this:
What if I buy MK Dons, or even a conference club?
If I done this tomorrow you would all know why. English football would know why a few days later. No deals struck, but I would be building a team to grow up the leagues.
Then I loan a handful of players from Celtic, enough to get me alongside Crewe in the Championship.
I would then be in a position to make my move. Do a deal with Celtic for them to buy me out and move my league registration to Glasgow.
The onus would then be on those with the money and inclination to stop the deal to try to find a legal case against it. The Football League would need to think of a new reason (which was beyond legal reproach) that they were unable to find for the Wimbledon fans to stop it.
Before all this took place, Celtic would be sitting across the table from the Premiership negotiators with everyone knowing that Celtic were coming, the only thing to be discussed is how and when.
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Hello Anonymous 6:39,
In answer to your question…. Apparently, before teeing off, American golfers decide how many “Mulligans” they’ll have. Each player is then allowed to have that amount of duff shots. Say for example, it’s just one stroke, and you proceed to poofily slice a drive 50 yards into the trees on the right like The Mule, you can turn round to your giggling opponents and declare, “That’s my Mulligan, by the way”. In other words, the shot doesn’t count, and proceed to play the stroke again.
I’m led to believe it’s strictly a Yankee thing.
Sorry to bore the non-golfers, but the guy asked!
PM
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I'll repeat what I said the first time Neil commented on this.
"Neil - I agree entirely that this route is an option and you are spot in with the legalities involved. I must say that I laughed out loud when I read UEFA's recent announcements on who would be allowed to play etc - they are stuck in the dark ages with not a clue about legalities.
I have 2 buts though.
1) Do we really want to go down this route. I was under the impression that this would not be necessary - that some form of reconstruction was under consideration. Its one thing to force yourself in - but we would make few friends in doing so. However - if we have no choice then so be it.
2) Regardless of the legal truth there is a underlying issue which would threaten the stability of football. One of the things which has kept football strong is that there are not competing football authorities etc. We have one structure and one set of rules etc. This has been held together by clubs agreeing to follow the rules of the overall football associations. These rules are in addition/on top of the legalities and indeed they may be contradictory with the legalities. if clubs increasingly refuse to abide by these rules and use their recourse to the law we are in danger of breaking up this concensus. The danger is we end up with several competing football federations and a complete mess (just take a look at boxing and recoil in horrer).
Is this what we really want?"
There have been some really excellent points put across in this thread expressing the emotion and the underlying belief of being a celtic supporter. There is of course a precedent for this - Airdire United. Ask yourselves this - do you think of Airdrie United as the same as the old Airdrie - or do you think of them as the parasites who destroyed Clydebank? These may be wee clubs but I know clydebank supporters who were just as passionate as us - can you imagine what it would feel like.
Also - what about the continuity of history - Celtic MK indeed - over my dead body.
I ask again DO THE ENDS JUSTIFY THE MEANS?
We must continue to ask this question - as others we have said we are Celtic - we are not the imperialist forces of capitalism. We are a community - is it enough for us to simply look after ourselves at the expense of others.
And is this all for the benefit of Celtic or is it for the benefit of a few wealthy individuals.
There is going to be lots of soul searching over the next year - will we maintain a hard fought integrity or will we simply be the same as all the other greedy clubs in the world.
The choice is ours...................
Money V Integrity
Soul V Growth
etc etc
What I would really welcome though would be the chance to dissociate from our evil cousins. No more old firm - let this country rot in its sectarianism and prejudice. Leave them to their nonesense.
All of the paths are open now - which way do we go?
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Half fool – (re) your question about the stadium allowing sunlight. I can tell you that whilst as a guest at the SKY BOX- (old press box), John McGuire (sponsor bhoy) let me know that he had been told that this was his last season with access to the box. The reason he was given, was that the Box would no longer be in use, the reason being to allow glass paneling above to let more sunlight on to the grass. This was a while ago. It seems to me that there is no official time frame regarding any stadium increases, and no set plans to exactly how this will be done. We can speculate that the removal of this box would be to allow for another two tiers for example. Please note that the position on this decision may well have changed. If anyone knows better please let us know.
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Paul - When you buy said football club, do you really believe that you would progress through all the leagues like they were nothing?
A John Toshack like feat does not come along every day.
If Cuckoo FC ends up stagnating in CC league 2, would you then buy another club, to eat the heart out it?
TB (God Bless him), tried to lead Reading with millionaire backing and Scottish reservists (in Celtics standards)- and look how easy that was for him.
It all looks easy in Champ Manager.
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Thanks for you response mcgarveybhoy.
Often wondered about this and the defunct "Big Screen", hanging over many of our heads.
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As a London based tim, i have plenty of contact with premiership club's fan's. During a recent night out with friends and friends of friends i brought up the subect of Celtic joining the EPL, this to my satisfaction, turnt into a fair debate. The overall view from my drinking chums was that Celtic in the EPL would be a huge attraction, but would never likely to happen. When the question was posed, why not? No one could give a decent counter argument, most agreed that SKY are the string pullers and if SKY where to put pressure on clubs to open the door for Celtic they would do so (most of them knowing how there respective club's boards operate-greed and how vital SKY's money is to the EPL).
Rangers are seen down here as being a big club but not with the same appeal as Celtic.
My view is that the time is ripe for us to make our move.
I dont belive that we will have to resort to NeilR's option, but as Paul says it as a good negotiating tactic, to be in a position of stength, at the table.
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??????????????? Oh, that was a constructive quote to this exellent website. Yeah, well thought out. (Note the sarcasm)
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My friend at 11.05, this is not the place for religious comments. Celtic are there for all irrespective of their faith.
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Fair Play,
Those were silly comments. I am sorry; I respect all who post here.
I am Celtic, and I am proud - perhaps too enthusiastic - I really mean no offense.
Hail Hail
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Good to hear back from you anon. We all share the same passion.
It is up to us to keep raising the bar and to move clear of the others.
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Paul67 this is the worst article to ever appear on the site bar none. It strikes me as having all the hallmarks of many of your own articles: sophistry, rhetoric and relative linguistic guile are used to bamboozle those a bit less clued up in creating an argument that ostensibly sounds watertight but is actually bollocks.
Here are my three ideas as to what will happen to Celtic within the next five years.
* We will remain in the SPL (or whatever its called by then) as there will be no window open to us to get into the EPL unless there is a pan European league -which would make the EPL notion redundant anyway (cannae see that replacing the CL though).
* We will have a new manager within three as MON goes elsewhere to further his ambitions.
* We will realise we can be a strong midtier European team in the Lyon/Ajax mode by concentrating on youth policy and developing our brand strengths (albeit within a Scottish structure).Through doing this we can put together decent teams with capabilities in the CL up to and beyond the QFs.
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Gedboy says:
The historical integrity of clubs and their geographical location is not as secure as many think and there are many precedents for weirdness in football.
New Brighton Tower (Wirral) were dreamed up as an adjunct of the New Brighton 30s tourist trap.
Arsenal (the old Dial Square) moved away from Charlton to poach part of Tottenham and Orient's territory.
Don't forget the current Airdrie team. Clydebank got into the SFL by taking over East Stirling. The ES fans fought tooth and nail and eventually won. Look at the old tables and you will see a team called ES Clydebank which then turned into two teams: one called East Stirling again and one called Clydebank.
Then Clydebank go bust. The company is bought by the new Airdrie United who change the name and play on in the league. Airdie Utd has nothing legally to do with Airdrieonians. It legally is Clydebank FC renamed.
As one of the 29 (actually I counted 53) fans at the doomed Clydebank's game against East Stirling at Morton, I understood why the ES fans were shouting that they hoped Clydebank died when I guess many other fans were sympathetic to Clydebank's plight.
Now if weirdness like that can happen, there is no legal barrier to Celtic getting into the English League structure. Whether or not it would be ethical to kill a club to do this is a horse of a different colour.
I personally hope for European Leagues of many divisions so that we can improve our grade of football without destroying what currently exists.
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A brief comment... Celtic are currently a global brand with the potential to grow to become one of the pre-eminent brands in world football as the market evolves over the next few years. However we are currently stagnating in the SPL and I believe that we need to get out and quickly while we have this window of opportunity.
World football is changing and consolidating, it is changing from regional markets to a global market and if we don't raise our profile at this key stage we will miss the boat. We must not underestimate stakes here, if we don't act soon we will wane and be forever a provincial club trapped in SP-Hell.
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12:12 anon: a salient point... the revulsion towards those who would destroy the cameraderie of another tribe is truly despised, even through the generations and indeed at a game which only 50? people bother to turn up for...
have our club not suffered enough institutional resentment, or should we solicit more?
but that's not my point, here's my point...
i've read a fair few of the artic |
