 Monday, February 28, 2005
Panorama drops the ball
Many Celtic fans will feel a touch annoyed after watching Panorama tonight. Entitled ‘Scotland’s secret shame’ it was a tabloidesque treatment of sectarianism in Scotland.
We met some familiar ugly faces from both sides and got to see the ambulances and A&E wards after an Old Firm game. A sorry business which certainly contributes to my quite-nights-in after these games.
There was no attempt to differentiate between the two clubs; the distant viewer would be under no doubt that one side was as bad as the other, which is a point of some regret for me.
I know that Celtic have become an inclusive multi-cultural club with support drawn from all sides of Scottish society. The points they ‘nailed’ Celtic on were the IRA songs heard at many away games and the drink fuelled violence which is a feature of street life in Scotland after Old Firm games.
Some incredible editing had Brian Quinn tell how political and religious songs were virtually unheard of at Celtic Park before the programme cut to Celtic fans singing about the IRA at an away game. This editing was designed to make Quinn, and Celtic by extension, look foolish. It was tardy television.
Ultimately my frustration at Panorama is tempered by the fact that I expected no better. Celtic fans sing inappropriate songs at away games. Some get tanked up and fight Rangers fans. If you think a TV producer responsible for his viewing figures is going to ignore this when investigating sectarianism in Scotland you have learned nothing about the media.
We will not get Fifa type accolades from them.
As with many gripes I have with the media, we are wasting our time complaining about them. They will pick up and run with any material Celtic fans make available to them. If we do not change the material at away games Celtic will continue to be tarnished by it.
Celtic fans should be aiming high for the future of our club. This should include a self policing code of conduct.
67 Comments:
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To repeat what my comments on the other thread.....
Well - Panorama continues to dumb down - a sad decline of a once great news programme - tabloidisation at its worst (full of lazy half truths and complete exaggerations).
On the subject matter - as we suspected - we are both apparantly the same. This is the laziest lie in Scotland.
But our answer must be to rise above all this, cast aside the last vestige of bigotry (by all means stick to the political) - and play the media game.
For Scotland as a whole this programme really was pathetic. The numbers of casualties quoted by the NHS representives are nothing to write home about - but as usual they exaggerate the impact. The numbers they are quoting are less than the average Friday/Saturday night in any major city. I'm not trying to downplay some of the idiots and it should be noted I am involved in a long running dispute with a casualty department over their treatment of my daughter following an accident - forget the cuddly image they want to portray - they are the laziest and least caring bunch of people I have ever encountered.
This is the same NHS which tried to prevent my other daughter from receiving treatment for severe earache over a weekend. NHS 24 told me they were too busy - but when I turned up and Berryknowes Clinic I found no patients there and they were extremely annoyed to leave their cups of tea. I have nothing but contempt for these people - anyone care to disagree?
We al know there is no secret in Scotlands "secret" shame. This country is institutionally sectarian ( a charge I will never tire of levelling). Incidentally despite the fact that this programme was broadcast across the UK, this was firmly a BBC Scotland production. Of course BBC Scotland neglects to delare its own sectarian signing policy.
Until this country faces up to its sectarian past it will never be able to face its future = if they can do it in South Africa we can certainly do it here. But lets tell the truth....
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Agree that this programme was no better than the tabloid journalism we have had to endure over the years.
A programme on sectarianism that did not show Celtic fans singing anti-protestant or indeed anti-anybody songs and made out that songs about the IRA make Celtic supporters sectarian.
I would like many prefer if such songs were not sung but these songs are not sectarian.
I agree that the editing of Brian Quinn's interview was a disgrace but even more annoying was the supposed singing of BOTOB during the minutes silence at Motherwell for September 11. I remember the incident clearly and the songs were being sung by people outside the ground and making their way in totally unaware of what was going on inside.
In any case, what has this incident got to do with sectarianism in Scotland?
An opportunity lost by the BBC.
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HI paul enjoying the site once again,looking forward to your next post regarding the Epl, can that program panorama be downloaded here.
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Paul, I couldn't agree more with you.
Celtic's aspirations to be recognised as a a global football powerhouse who want to play in a top class league requires this sectarian matter to be finally dealt with, as well as the business needs we talk about frequently.
Sectarianism is moronic and needs to be stamped out. Let's not focus on degrees of difference between ourselves and our historical rivals, rather we should be setting a high morale standard for ourselves and establishing the benchmark.
Celtic fans, we have a duty to do our bit and cut out the improper behaviour at all our games and in the streets.
Having been gone from Scotland for decades I often forget about the stain on Scottish society that is engrained unfortunately in our culture.
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kigoh
While I agree that songs that are simply pro-Irish or pro-Irish republican should not be labelled sectarian (but frequently are), I have always thought of pro-IRA material as blatantly sectarian. Sorry to disagree. Agree with your other comments.
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Absolute agreement with your analysis of the program Paul, it was garbage but we knew it would be. Its what wasn't said which was the problem eg Rangers sectarian signing policy was mentioned but there was no mention that Celtic have never had one. Even the very first team were mixed.
We may play up the whole Irish connection and in many ways absolutely rightly, Rangers exploit the bigotted side ie selling orange tops, chinese team's away (not the much more 'famous' home top)etc etc. Celtic are by a million miles a more inclusive club despite what you find if you do a trawl around the net and as I'm sure we'll find once this thread oes on a bit. Yes we have our own problem eg listen to James McGrory being sung, I always cringe after the first line waiting...you know what I mean.
One other thing. Scotland's secret shame, bollox.
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We'll lads it's good to see that the don't watch their programs / buy their papers / visit their websites plan is going well :o).
First things first, I know some will say I'm biased on this but can anyone here say BOTOB (etc) or anything like that is as bad as the "up to our necks in F****n blood".
Can a club who is pretty much a self-claimed pro-Scottish/Irish be neutral towards a pro-British / English agenda???
So what songs are going to be acceptable? Soldiers Songs (national anthem for many) and is it any better than BOTOB? (Anyone up for 90 minutes of YNWA, Celtic Symphony, Hail Hail and Willie Maley repeated 10 times (cause lets face it how often do we ctually properlt finish a song).
And bearing in mind all of the songs refer to the Early 20th Century and early 70's movement, during the times when it was more popular with the mainstream is that so wrong?
Someone pointed out they felt a need to move from our tradition in order to move to EPL (would their then be an ACFC and sure why don't we do that Milton Keynes idea while we are at it, this is the same support who potested over breaking the hoops on a shirt that was initially stripes,sso I don't think the "wash our hands" approach will work.
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I watched last night programme, I tried to keep an open mind, but as everyone else says it was tabloid journalism at its worst.
I thought that Brian Quinn came over far better that his rangers counterparts. I found Mr McIntyre’s comments about “ its not a nazi salute – they are making red hand of Ulster salute” absolutely priceless.
I don’t think that MON came out of it very well to be honest, for a man who is normally very eloquent; he seemed to stumble badly when asked to make comment on the sectarian signing.
But overall the programme just skimmed the issue of the institutionalised bigotry that is prevalent in this country.
A question for Mr McConnell – If he and the Scottish executive are really serious about fixing the sectarian problem let’s get to the root of the problem. Take the difficult decisions - Ban the Orange Walks. If non-Catholics believe that separate schooling is the problem – then do an independent study of this. We all know what the findings would be – at least then this would be this issue done and dusted – does any one think that Jack has the political will to attempt this – no, me neither.
Ps – can Jack also explain why he was singing “political” songs at the airport on the return journey from the Porto match a year or two back ??
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No mention on a BBC programme of BBC Scotland's decision not to interrupt a Rangers should the Pope have passed away at that time.
There is a difference between Republican songs and Sectarian songs but neither have any place at football games.
Footage of a Republican march but none of the more numerous Orange walks.
I was also very annoyed by the suggestion that Ireland's problems were transported to Scotland. Irish Catholics moved to Scotland for economic reasons and were met with bigotry/prejudice/racism from the indigenous population. It's like putting 50% of the blame on the Black population in America's Deep South for the racial problems there over the last couple of hundred years.
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Quite the worst piece you've ever written Paul.It's all over the place mate.The programme was not perfect. It is a huge subject and there was bound to be omissions but there is nobody who reads this site who didn't recognise already what they were watching.
Johnnybhoy
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Quite the worst piece you've ever written Paul.It's all over the place mate.The programme was not perfect. It is a huge subject and there was bound to be omissions but there is nobody who reads this site who didn't recognise already what they were watching.
Johnnybhoy
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The problem lies in a conflict of interest and in bred ignorance. How can a programme serve a proper purpose and be constructive in aiding to rid this country of the blight that is anti-catholicism, if its produced by a BBC scotland!? why can people in power not come out and state the obvious - that catholics and celtic fans(not inextricably linked, gasp) are subjected to ignorance, bigotry and just pure hate filled intolerance opf our culture.
The constant evening-up of the 2 sides is sickening and is simply hiding under the carpet on the issue - would we get a similar programme of half truths if an independant foreign company investigated it? - I think not, infact we know so!
To highlight this fact, how can we possible expect to eradicate the problem at Ibrox and the mindless uneducated there(and thats what they are) when people like Lawrence Mcintyre are defending fans for making Nazi salutes, claiming that it was ok because they were red hands of Ulster!!! -incredible. To further highlight, David Murray would not accept that it was shameful behaviour - he could only reluctantly (VERY reluctantly) say that it was regrettable.
It is quite simply unbelievable.
Stand up for your rights, dont "turn the other cheek" and dont let this scum(yes they are scum) run us down.
Stand up and be counted
Andy C
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I feel like I have been kicked in the stomach after watching last nights panorama. Agree with everyone who posted here on this topic.
I can't for the life of me understand how BBC Scotland didnt have some quality control over the content of the programme. NEG ANNON, they don't still have a policy surely, Have they 'officially' ended this policy or do they deny one ever existed? Somebody in QM Drive must know that what went out was misleading. Imagine that, an national institution (BBC) being selective with information?
Of course there were some quality journalistic moments, interviews with McIntyre and Murray were provided some light relief.
However, such is the enormity of the subject I think it is unfair to corner a manager (MON and possinly McLeish although I am hazy as to what he was asked)into giving a yes or no answer to questions that should be asked in a more appropriate arena/debate/forum, and not when you are there to talk about your next game or walking through an airport - Tabloid stuff.
Some English friends of mine exitedly rang to let me know that there was a programme about Celtic and Rangers on, (which of course I knew about and was dreading)they were going to watch it mainly in loyalty to me I think. Tonight I am going to have to give a post mortem and correct a few mistruths.
I haved lived in Galway for the last 12 years and have been able to look from afar with more objectivity that I might not have had before. Sad to say it still does not look good. At least though we beginning to talk about institutional sectarianism without feeling that we are all just paranoid.
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I didn't see the programme, but i don't like this moral high ground patter that's going about. Sectarianism sickens me & i would love to see positive changes. However can i put my hand on my heart & say that i've never sung these type of songs? - No i Can't
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Paul
As a cultural anomaly in the Celtic support, I have always felt that we don't make enough of the fact that our Celtic roots (hard K) in Scotland are shared with Ireland. Where I come from we have more in culture in common with the Irish than we do with the flute playing walkers.
I did not bother to watch the programme. The sensationalist billing said it all.
The BBC has long given up trying to produce decent investigative documentaries. Taking it seriously only envourages them to belive their stratgey is right.
The only way to stamp out sectarianism is by acting in a responsible way. That includes sorting out the idiots. Their behaviour at away games defines how others see us. And as you know Paul, perception is a stronger force than reality or truth.
Get our own house in order and then other's behaviour and attitudes will become acceptable.
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Paul
As a cultural anomaly in the Celtic support, I have always felt that we don't make enough of the fact that our Celtic roots (hard K) in Scotland are shared with Ireland. Where I come from we have more in culture in common with the Irish than we do with the flute playing walkers.
I did not bother to watch the programme. The sensationalist billing said it all.
The BBC has long given up trying to produce decent investigative documentaries. Taking it seriously only envourages them to belive their stratgey is right.
The only way to stamp out sectarianism is by acting in a responsible way. That includes sorting out the idiots. Their behaviour at away games defines how others see us. And as you know Paul, perception is a stronger force than reality or truth.
Get our own house in order and then other's behaviour and attitudes will become acceptable.
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VargasShampoo
What moral high ground and to whom are you refering? Regardless, I dont get your point. I am sure you speak for the majority of those who post here when you say sectariansm sickens you. Yeah sure, I have sung the odd dodgy song, in my young teens, when I didnt know better, I never sing offensive songs now as I am aware that perpetuates the situation. Is that being on the moral high ground? Fine by me then.
PS Inspirational username btw!
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Its crap like that that really gets to me.
i have a few rangers supporting friends and they seem to agree that thier support is far worse when it comes to this sort of thing, bigotry both racial and religious.
so why cant the BBC make this kind of programme without giving it the old 'they're both as bad as each other' crap.
it really is a shortcut to thinking .
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Neither Republican nor Sectarian songs have any place at football games.
I think the issue that many Celtic fans have is that Irish Republicanism, and by extension the songs which support it, can be viewed a as legitimate political viewpoint.
Sectarian songs which promote hatred of one section of the community can never be acceptable under any circumstances.
Therefore Celtic fans, rightly in my opinion, consider their songs are not as bad and should not be tarred with the same brush as songs sung by Rangers fans. But to go back to my first point neither type of song has any place at a football match.
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A disappointing yet entirely unsurprising view of the sectarian problems in Scotland. It followed the standard party line that both sides are as bad as each other, despite the fact that all evidence suggests otherwise. How often to do hear of Orange order and Republican marches being reported in the same sentence? Don't know about you guys but I know that I have never once seen a Republican march in Glasgow. Unfortunately, I can't say the same about Orange marches.
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I was in the Casualty ward up at the Monklands whilst the Panorama crew were there on Sunday night. It was a quiet night by any weekend standards never mind an OF game night. I saw that hack and her crew go around A&E desperately try to find someone covered in blood.
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Corrib04
what i mean is that I'm the biggest hypocrite out and i think there are a few of us if they're honest. I slate the other side for the slightest thing and i genuinely have a hatred for all the anti social behaviour that goes with it, but if we're cruising with a minute to go in an old firm game & the Soldiers song swells round the stadium then i join in. Yet if a few folk start singing the same song at an away game or against a lesser team, then for some reason the people who happily sung this song against Rangers, take the moral high ground & distance themselves from it.
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Cant the BBC not tell the difference between a sectarian song a political song and a countries national anthem.
I for one never heard the Celtic support filmed sing any sectarian songs and I for one I have never heard a sectarian songs home and away domestically and abroad. Political yes folk yes but never sectarian.
For me the songs that the Celtic support sing, represent what CELTIC was founded for, what CELTIC is about and most of all the people CELTIC were founded for. The songs are about freedom, about fighting against oppression, about fighting against sectarianism and neighbours who think they are better than you, about being the underdog, about community spirit and also about welcoming one and all to the cause.
Yes I think the song highlighted has a couple of lines which are inappropriate but then any song that mentions any terrorist organisation is a bit close to the wind but then "one man's freedom fighter is another mans terrorist.
If the Celtic support took it upon itself to stop singing the song in question then there are plenty of others that don't mention that organisation but still capture the defiance and the triumph against all odds.
Its about time Celtic stop apologising for what it is, a Scottish club with Irish catholic roots.
Its others that have the problem with us
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I think we are more than a football club, 'If you know the history' I think is just as much about you and me as fans, not just what happens on the park.
In the past these songs were what the fans were fighting for, and as the recent weeks media has shown us, we are still fighting for equal rights
Why shouldn't we sing republican songs, TBOTOB, The Soldiers song, these aren't sectarian.
If you think pro IRA songs are sectarian, go read some history books, or why don't you get a hold of the actual words, and tell me were it says anything against non-catholics.
'Let the people sing'
p.s.I do hate the chants in between other songs.
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I think we are more than a football club, 'If you know the history' I think is just as much about you and me as fans, not just what happens on the park.
In the past these songs were what the fans were fighting for, and as the recent weeks media has shown us, we are still fighting for equal rights
Why shouldn't we sing republican songs, TBOTOB, The Soldiers song, these aren't sectarian.
If you think pro IRA songs are sectarian, go read some history books, or why don't you get a hold of the actual words, and tell me were it says anything against non-catholics.
'Let the people sing'
p.s.I do hate the chants in between other songs.
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I received the following from PS who is inhibited from posting at work:
I must pick you up on one important point. You mention that ‘...as with many gripes I have with the media, we are wasting our time complaining about them’. Generally, your point is valid however as Panorama is a BBC production any complaints made about a program regarding content, style, editing etc are taken very seriously by the BBC.
There is a specific complaints department, http://www.bbc.co.uk/complaints, with new codes of practice which have a commitment to respond to complaints within ten days.
From their website:-
“How will the BBC report on complaints?
This website will report on the volume and range of complaints we've received and, where appropriate, our responses and details of any clarifications, corrections and remedial actions taken. Please visit Read our responses or, for quarterly reports, visit Review complaints reports.
A new Complaints Management Board of senior executives will ensure that lessons we learn from complaints are fed into editorial and managerial processes. The Governors will monitor the overall effectiveness of complaints-handling across the BBC.”
The reason I am banging on here is that I personally would encourage CelticQuickNews contributors to each make an educated complaint regarding in particular the apparent editorial bias in the Brian Quinn interview.
With the BBC one valid well made complaint can be very powerful. Numerous complaints of the same theme on the same programme will be embarrassing for the production staff involved and they, in turn, will have to explain why the programme was presented in such a way not only to internal management but to the general public.
Complaints can be made online too:- http://www.bbc.co.uk/complaints/make_complaint.shtml
No idea how to download the programme seatlecelt.
Belfastbhoy, an interesting point that I have seen creep in a couple of times. To move upwards and onwards to England will not require us to change or lose our traditions, however, this does not mean that we should not be reaching for the high moral ground anyway.
Johnnybhoy, even the best slip in form during a long season, just ask Alan Thompson :-)
Highland Tim, the more Celtic fans I meet, the more cultural anomalies seem less anomalous. If we play our cards right in the next five years we will cement our place as the established club in Scotland. The previous incumbents will become marginalised.
This is the prize which awaits if we can drop the unpleasant business at away games.
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As Ricksen lined up to take the corner, against a background of hundreds of Celtic fans directly behind him all jeering and booing him, you could see he was nervous, scared probably, who wouldn't be. Quite clearly relieved to see and hear his own fans cheering him, presumably to let him know he wasn't alone, he made a brief clapping gesture towards them. For that a barrage of missiles came his way, all aimed at head height, one as we know cut him above the eye, stiched up later on apparently. The following day, the tabloids and phone in type programmes had loads of Celtic fans on saying Ricksen brought it all on himself. Eh!? What!? How did this happen? What have we become? The new FOD?
Kevin, Blantyre
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Please don't just moan about this programme. Do something. Either email the BBC complaints website (address already shown) or wirte (as I've just done) to
BBC Complaints
PO Box 1922
Glasgow G2 3WT
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What the hell has happened to the one time flagship current affairs programme Panorama?
I realised early on in the prog that we were never going to get a balanced and truthful account of what is Scotlands not so secret shame from an organisation that practiced the self same discrimination against Catholics that Rangers did until very recently, and that proved to be the case.
I noticed that there was no mention of the recent Radio 5 Live survey that proved that scots catholics were 4 times more likely to suffer from sectarianism than our protestant counterparts, that wouldn't have suited the pre determined slant that the makers of this tawdry excuse for a programme wanted to portray.
Why wasn't David Murray asked about the odious flute music that is constantly heard at Ibrox and the club's endorsement of not one but two orange jerseys to pander to its knuckle dragging "minority"?
This was tabloid " programme making" at its worst.
It is only scant consolation that Celtic came out of it looking that they were at least trying to tackle the problem whereas Rangers looked like they were paying it lip service.
Brian Quinn should be on the phone right now complaining about the final edit of the show which tried its best to make him and Celtic look foolish by its not so clever use of Celtic's away support to ridicule his stance on removing season tickets from people at CP who are guilty of sectarianism.
What can Quinn do to punish people who attach themselves to Celtic for our away fixtures?
Why was there no footage of any of the seemingly limitless orange walks that permiate throughout our society? Didn't they have enough to choose from?
Why was there no mention of the fact that until very recently in Scotland your chances of a job depended upon which school you attended?
Any mention of St this or St that on your application form would inevitably result in your services not being required.
I agree with Negative Anon that this country of ours is institutionally biased towards its like minded sons and daughters and it will take more than a biased , slanted , programme like Panorama to change this.
Jack McConnell is kidding himself on that he can do anything about this when one of the participants in his anti sectarianism think tank is actively plotting behind his back to wreck any chance of a breakthrough.
I'm just waiting now on the "lets abolish catholic schools" kneejerk reaction put forward as the way forward for Scotland although this doesn't seem to apply to any other part of the country.
All in all this programme was a discrace and a waste of licence payers money.
Hail, hail.
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First time poster but both the programme and the responses to it have made me want to contribute.
Firstly, I am a season ticket holder who has lived in / around Aberdeen for many years. So, although born in Glasgow and having spent several years living in Fife, the majority of my adult life has been out with the West of Scotland.
I agree that Panorama last night was a wasted opportunity, given that it was such a waste, I struggle to see the point of the broadcast. What were they trying to achieve? Can you imagine the 'pitch' of the production team when they proposed making the programme?
"... well, we're going to set out to show the West of Scotland population to be mindless bigots only interested in the Irish paramilitary and kicking the s**t out of each other. Then we're going to gloss over the real issues with some crafty editing, blame the lot on the Old Firm and offer no intelligent commentary whatsoever ..."
If that's not what the scope of the broadcast was, then they failed because that's what they did.
The wrongs and wrongs of who's songs are more sectarian (because, lets face it, there are no rights) are irrelevant in this debate ... Spiers was right, if you / we want to have technical debates on the relevance of TBOTOB etc to the recent paramilitary troubles that are still engrained in many peoples brains, the only place where such debate will be welcomed will be amongst ourselves ... I personally do not subscribe to the theory that excess CO2 emissions are single handedly causing global warming … but no-one’s going to discuss that as we have a nice easy thing to blame, regardless of accuracy !!
I remember going to Celtic Park pre McCann days … the ‘old’ songs were widely sung and we could not defend ourselves from the type of accusation that can be targeted at TFOD today … after McCann, I sit in my North Stand Upper seat and hardly ever hear republican tunes. I go to away games and it’s like turning back the clock … it’s the songs at the away games that maintain our IRA loving reputation.
Yes we should be proud of our Irish heritage etc but if we ever want to rid ourselves of the reputation that wrecks everything we achieved in Seville 03 the republican signing and imagery must stop. Just imagine if it stopped altogether, home and away, then how much moral high ground could we claim over TFOD and how good would it be to have total pride in being a Celtic fan … because, let’s face it, no amount of history lessons are going to stop me cringing when the pro-republican songs start. Not because I don’t understand, but because I know what everyone else thinks when they hear them.
Mark M
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Haven't seen the programme (taped BBC2 by mistake) but I can well imagine what BBC Scotland would come up with. I emailed them twice recently when Radio Scotland were having discussions on the racialism/sectarianism in football. Not only was I not quoted, I never even received any acknowledgement.
Having said that, I am firmly on the side of those who want an end to all the "Oh, it's great to be a Roman Catholic" and the pro-IRA tripe. I know its mainly at away games but that's no real excuse. Being pro-Celtic is what we are and always will be. Fergus tried to continue the job that Bob Kelly started in that regard and was vilified to our lasting shame when the league flag was being unfurled. Long may the Board promote a Celtic inclusive of all.
If you're thinking I don't know my history, I am proud to be born of families for whom Celtic was started and a grandfather who came from Bridgeton!
Parkheadcumsalford
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Haven't seen the programme (taped BBC2 by mistake) but I can well imagine what BBC Scotland would come up with. I emailed them twice recently when Radio Scotland were having discussions on the racialism/sectarianism in football. Not only was I not quoted, I never even received any acknowledgement.
Having said that, I am firmly on the side of those who want an end to all the "Oh, it's great to be a Roman Catholic" and the pro-IRA tripe. I know its mainly at away games but that's no real excuse. Being pro-Celtic is what we are and always will be. Fergus tried to continue the job that Bob Kelly started in that regard and was vilified to our lasting shame when the league flag was being unfurled. Long may the Board promote a Celtic inclusive of all.
If you're thinking I don't know my history, I am proud to be born of families for whom Celtic was started and a grandfather who came from Bridgeton!
Parkheadcumsalford
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Haven't seen the programme (taped BBC2 by mistake) but I can well imagine what BBC Scotland would come up with. I emailed them twice recently when Radio Scotland were having discussions on the racialism/sectarianism in football. Not only was I not quoted, I never even received any acknowledgement.
Having said that, I am firmly on the side of those who want an end to all the "Oh, it's great to be a Roman Catholic" and the pro-IRA tripe. I know its mainly at away games but that's no real excuse. Being pro-Celtic is what we are and always will be. Fergus tried to continue the job that Bob Kelly started in that regard and was vilified to our lasting shame when the league flag was being unfurled. Long may the Board promote a Celtic inclusive of all.
If you're thinking I don't know my history, I am proud to be born of families for whom Celtic was started and a grandfather who came from Bridgeton!
Parkheadcumsalford
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Haven't seen the programme (taped BBC2 by mistake) but I can well imagine what BBC Scotland would come up with. I emailed them twice recently when Radio Scotland were having discussions on the racialism/sectarianism in football. Not only was I not quoted, I never even received any acknowledgement.
Having said that, I am firmly on the side of those who want an end to all the "Oh, it's great to be a Roman Catholic" and the pro-IRA tripe. I know its mainly at away games but that's no real excuse. Being pro-Celtic is what we are and always will be. Fergus tried to continue the job that Bob Kelly started in that regard and was vilified to our lasting shame when the league flag was being unfurled. Long may the Board promote a Celtic inclusive of all.
If you're thinking I don't know my history, I am proud to be born of families for whom Celtic was started and a grandfather who came from Bridgeton!
Parkheadcumsalford
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Scotland Secret Shame was not just about sectarian chants and who the biggest offenders are. It was everything that goes with Celtic and Rangers i.e. the hatrid from so many, the anti-catholic songs from them and the pro IRA songs from us. All the fighting, stabbing, stoning and kicking because of the colour of your football top and what its meant to represent. From that point of view it came across exactly as it is.
Lets not hide behind 'our songs are political' arguement either. There are too many decent Celtic songs getting hijacked by chants for an outlawed terrorist organisation.
And who said you don't here anything sectarian at Celtic Park? How many of us sing along to 'Forever and Ever, we'll follow the Bhoys'? We shall never be mastered by who ?
Go to the game on Wednesday and listen to how many times you hear someone shout, chant or even talk about orange bastards. Lets not pass the buck, we know they have a lot further to go in cleaning up their act than we do but we still have a hell of long way to go.
Jinky Johnstone
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When I read and see impassioned and I have no doubt well intentioned defences of the singing of Pro –IRA songs as excusable on the grounds that they are political and not sectarian I can’t help but think of Burns comment “ Oh Wad that God the gift tae gie us to see ourselves as ithers see us” (apologies for what is probably not the exact quote but you get the drift ) because like it or lump it that’s the nub. I to my shame now sang these songs in my youth before I knew any better but for the life of me I can no longer draw any sort of “nice” distinction between these and Billy Boys and the like . The defenders of the IRA songs and for that matter for me The Soldiers Song as far as I’m concerned are playing semantics and not dealing with the reality that Irish Republicanism is in the minds of most of the rest of the World associated with Catholicism as the Orange Order is associated with Queen Country and the defence of Protestantism. Denying it and failing to eradicate it means that wherever Celtic go there will always be the opportunity to say one is as bad as the other because whether we all like it or not in the big world outside that’s exactly how we’re seen.
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Derbyshirebhoy- even though I did state that the songs featured where political rather and sectarian I was not saying it was alright. For me the some of the Celtic support and the outside meeja have a problem with a vocal show of support for the IRA. If the Celtic support were to stop sing the boys of the old brigade and adding that bit in the Wullie Maley song then for me no accusations that get fired at Celtic just now would stand up in court. As I said in my earlier post there are songs out there that just as well show our defiance and what Celtic is about that don’t mention the IRA. Its time for the support to embrace other songs just like we embraced the fields of Athenray, let the people sing and this land is your land, which are all just as impassioned as boys of the old brigade but don’t mention the offending terrorist group.
I disagree about your take on the soldier’s song I hope this does continue as it’s the song of our founders and a strong part of the Celtic identity.
Jinky- can’t remember the last time Forever and ever was sung by the Celtic support.
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Many years ago, there was a programme on STV or the Beeb about "religous violence in scottish football", on this programme the guests were Jock Stein and Jock Wallace, at the beginning of show the host (can't remember who) said something like "As manager of the reigning champions Celtic it fair that we turn to their manager first, Jock Stein, Jock what's Celtic's position on this issue, to which Stein replied, " I don't know why your asking me about religion in football, I'm the manager of Glasgow Celtic, ask Jock there !
Mr. Wallace looked like he hoped the ground would open up and swallow him, simply because he'd absolutely nowhere to go on this, I think his words were "Aw come on Jock".
Shows that very little changes, the media can't accept that despite our perceived flaws (republican sympathies etc.) we're not the same as THEM, we're not the other half of some imagined partnership, we're DIFFERENT, BETTER, ask the spanish police, look what happened the last time THEY went to a cup final in Spain, and THEY won !
Maybe Panorama should have gone down to Paisley rd. west, where after many years away from my country of birth, I was shocked to find that things had changed for the worst, bars that are owned by the dregs of Northern Irelands terrorist organisations, Red hands, and dirty looks if your perceived as resembling a fenian, don't forget of course the highlight of the Kinning Park year, the orange walk.
Thankfully, I was only visiting an old friend and having left Scotland years ago no longer need to live, or raise my son in an environment where "the peepul" want to wade up to their knees in his blood.
Scotland's shame, yes it is, but it won't be solved by making it a two sided issue, it will be solved by putting the real culprits in the spotlight, namely THEM.
I think that the first step would be if Celtic's representatives publicly objected to the use of the phrase "Old Firm" every time someone uses it, maybe then people would realise that we're serious about not being part of Scotland's shame.
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Many years ago, there was a programme on STV or the Beeb about "religious violence in Scottish football", on this programme the guests were Jock Stein and Jock Wallace, at the beginning of show the host (can't remember who) said something like "As manager of the reigning champions Celtic it fair that we turn to their manager first, Jock Stein, Jock what's Celtic's position on this issue, to which Stein replied, " I don't know why your asking me about religion in football, I'm the manager of Glasgow Celtic, ask Jock there !
Mr. Wallace looked like he hoped the ground would open up and swallow him, simply because he'd absolutely nowhere to go on this, I think his words were "Aw come on Jock".
Shows that very little changes, the media can't accept that despite our perceived flaws (republican sympathies etc.) we're not the same as THEM, we're not the other half of some imagined partnership, we're DIFFERENT, BETTER even, ask the Spanish police, look what happened the last time THEY went to a cup final in Spain, and THEY won !
I think the first step should be that anyone representing Celtic should object to the use of the expression “Old Firm”, if it is continually pointed out that sectarianism is prevalent to one sector or group then that particular group will increasingly find itself in the spotlight for all the wrong reasons (or right reasons), let MON after every game against the Huns mention the filth pouring of the terraces from the Orc end, point out the Red hand flags, the blatant support of terrorist organizations, the concern that so and so from “C company” is in the crowd etc, you know what I mean. (Maybe not MON but someone should get the ball rolling)
Soon Murray and his chums will start to feel very uncomfortable under this barrage of negative publicity, maybe change can happen, unfortunately it might be up to us. The establishment won’t act because THEY are the establishment.
The police won’t act because, well they are the Glasgow police, and we all know how they shake hands, and how unbiased they are on match day! (yea right)
It worked against the Daily Ranker (to the utter horror of the media) lets try it against the Huns.
Send Panorama down Paisley rd. west on a Saturday after the Glasgow derby see what they find there, then bring them back to Baird’s for a pint with the real Scottish football supporters, best in Europe, Mr. Sepp Blatter said so, he can’t be wrong, can he?
Lastly, entrance into the EPL might be more acceptable if the English see us for what we are, not tied to TFOD by some umbilical cord, not two peas from the same pod, and definitely not inseparable partners.
Proud to be a Scot, and of Irish descent, a Fenian, pro-republican, non sectarian, and very proud of my team it’s supporters and it’s traditions.
Oregonbhoy
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Sorry gents, I thought the first message did'nt go out as I got cut off, had a think about it and edited the original.
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Hi
anyone who thinks that "The Sash" and "Hello, Hello..." are unnacceptable but "The Soldiers Song" and "Boys of the Old Brigade" are in someway acceptable at a football match is surely a misguided soul!!
Football songs should be about what happens on the green stuff in front of you now, not about what's been happening in that green place over the water for the past two hundred years!
Let's kick bigotry, sectarianism and religion out of the game altogether!
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Let face it Bhoys and Ghirls, we all knew where that "documentary" was heading.
Vote with your feet/remote/silver.
Don't give them the ratings.
Don't buy that rag with the continually broken Celtic crest.
Don't listen to the Radio Hun-In.
I know it can be hard when you are needing your "fix", but don't be tempted by the Dark Side.
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paul, too many jonnies on this site? can i claim some exclusivity please?...on a serious note our chairman was ill-advised to appear on this stitch-up job, as has been previously posted, due to the nonsense we have to endure from the BBC every week. do you agree though that he came across better than his counterpart?
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First time poster, but long time reader.
I think that as Celtic fans who want the club to progress to the next level we should stop worrying about wether or not we are better or worse than Rangers fans when in actual fact we should concentrate on getting our own house in order first. How can we complain about a programme which, whatever the rights or wrongs clearly shows Celtic fans indulging in secterian/republican chants. (Every Panorama programme i have ever watched that i have a knowledge of the topic, has a ridiculousy one sided angle, usually presenting a view which the viewers will find most interesting/controversial, rather than a balanced view of the facts)
I think we all have to commend Celtics progress on removing secterian/republican songs at home games, i am amazed at the progress made, despite not believing for 1 minute that Fergus McCann would be successful in his attempt to stop secterian songs, but it just shows what can be achieved by one man with a will to succeed. I think that if the same resolve was shown by one of celtics current leaders (peter lawell,brian quinn or martin oneill) the obvious problem associated with the away support could be eradicated in a short space of time. Could you imagine the perception of Celtic and their fans throughout England where this is undoubtably percieved as an "old firm" problem, if Celtic fans cleaned up their act. I am sure an invite to the premiership would be more likely.
If Celtic wish to progress as a club then this behaviour must not be tolerated, if Rangers and their fans wish to remain in the dark ages then that is their perogative but lets not hide behind the line "were not as bad as them".
As for Brian Quinns statement that the away support are not all season ticket holders therefore the club cannot do anything about it, i think we all know that this is not true.
With the right leadership and a collective will this problem can be eradicated at Celtic, and frankly if problems persist away from the ground then its in the hands of the police/politicians to deal with what would then be a social problem and not a problem of Celtic FC.
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First time poster, but long time reader.
I think that as Celtic fans who want the club to progress to the next level we should stop worrying about wether or not we are better or worse than Rangers fans when in actual fact we should concentrate on getting our own house in order first. How can we complain about a programme which, whatever the rights or wrongs clearly shows Celtic fans indulging in secterian/republican chants. (Every Panorama programme i have ever watched that i have a knowledge of the topic, has a ridiculousy one sided angle, usually presenting a view which the viewers will find most interesting/controversial, rather than a balanced view of the facts)
I think we all have to commend Celtics progress on removing secterian/republican songs at home games, i am amazed at the progress made, despite not believing for 1 minute that Fergus McCann would be successful in his attempt to stop secterian songs, but it just shows what can be achieved by one man with a will to succeed. I think that if the same resolve was shown by one of celtics current leaders (peter lawell,brian quinn or martin oneill) the obvious problem associated with the away support could be eradicated in a short space of time. Could you imagine the perception of Celtic and their fans throughout England where this is undoubtably percieved as an "old firm" problem, if Celtic fans cleaned up their act. I am sure an invite to the premiership would be more likely.
If Celtic wish to progress as a club then this behaviour must not be tolerated, if Rangers and their fans wish to remain in the dark ages then that is their perogative but lets not hide behind the line "were not as bad as them".
As for Brian Quinns statement that the away support are not all season ticket holders therefore the club cannot do anything about it, i think we all know that this is not true.
With the right leadership and a collective will this problem can be eradicated at Celtic, and frankly if problems persist away from the ground then its in the hands of the police/politicians to deal with what would then be a social problem and not a problem of Celtic FC.
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I have been looking at all the points that have been made here, and in general agree with most of them. The site seems to have a lot of very sensible contributers.
Leaving aside the pros and cons of singing Republican songs at matches for now, but is it the actual songs that are sung that are sectarian?
I believe that the add ons in between lines in songs are the most offensive, for both sides.
In Barcelona, there was a drunk guy who was singing the Soldiers Song, and inevitably added the line "Soon there'll be no Protestants at all". No sooner were the words out of his mouth, when an elderly gentleman chinned him about his use of phrase. He correctly pointed out that some of Celtic's legends have been Protestant, Stein, McGrain, Dalglish to name but a few and that there was a fair percentage of Celtic fans who were not Catholic.
This was the first time in all my years of following Celtic that I had seen this happen, and fair play to the gentleman, it made not just the singer, but all those around him take stock of the situation.
The same applies to other songs that are sung at Celtic Park, Fields of Athenrye, Willie Maley etc.
Over at the dark side, they are forever adding lines to do with the Pope, the IRA or Catholics in general.
Finally, someone from the Scottish Parliament needs to come out and explain what is classified as a Sectarian song or shout. Even the Police don't seem to know the exact law as a number of cases have been thrown out of court recently.
Newarthill John
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Jonnybhoy, Brian Quinn came across as the sensible one. The two Rangers representatives done themselves no favours.
Martin was mugged. His extract was not an interview for Panorama, he was just asked about sectarianism and did not want to participate in the conversation at that point. When this was played he looked as though he was trying to avoid something.
Welcome on board MichaelC.
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Newharthill John- the song your reffering to is "on the one road" not the soldiers song
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Celtic Ultra, I think what Newarthill John is trying to get through is that 'On the One Road' Usually leads into the 'Soilders Song' with these numbskulls
Mick Cronin - Cleland
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Celtic Ultra, I think what Newarthill John is trying to get through is that 'On the One Road' Usually leads into the 'Soilders Song' with these numbskulls
Mick Cronin - Cleland
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Celtic Ultra, I think what Newarthill John is trying to get through is that 'On the One Road' Usually leads into the 'Soilders Song' with these numbskulls
Mick Cronin - Cleland
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Mick- But they are still 2 different songs.
On the one road if the correct words are sung does not have the offending line.
The line is "dublin belfast cork and donegal"
As has been mentioned before its supporters that add in the lines that offend and that should stop.
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Celtic Ultra,
I know that On the one road and the Soldiers Song are 2 different songs, but as Mick Cronin points out, a proportion of the support lead one onto the other.
I was making a point about the bits that people add onto the songs, as opposed to the contents of the real songs.
However we are not here to split hairs, merely to discuss what we can do to stop our club being associated with the other lot when it comes down to sectarianism.
Newarthill John
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Newarthill john and Mick- sorry didn't mean to come across as splitting hairs but in the midst of all this topical discussion i feel that they are some songs getting tarred with the same brush as the songs that should be stopped.
While backing that the support remember our fore fathers i understand that songs that mention the IRA have no place at football and songs that are against a certain religon or colour have no place at football.
If Celtic where to produce a charter say then all it would need on it would be "no songs that mention terrorists or will offend any one's religon or any one's colour shall be sung".
That covers the offending SONG and any lines that get added on.
IMO if sung correctly "on the one road" has the same sentiments as the fields of athenray as do a lot of songs that people say are the offending ones.
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Long time reader, first time poster.
I've been living down in Watford for some years now so have not had first hand experience of the usual day-to-day muggings/slashings/beatings/murders within Glasgow that are caused purely by the fact that we are all sectarian!! What?..eh?...it must be true, BBC said so!!
On catching the program on Sunday evening I went to bed absolutely fuming - but for different reasons that most of the contributors on this board.....I was fuming at the name Glasgow had been given more than that of Celtic itself. We know that bigotry on the South Side is far deeper than that of the East, but lets get on with it.
Glasgow was depicted as a City of Scum, a city of single minded, knuckle dragging thugs. What BBC done for Glasgow was nothing short of shocking! Do they not have any Corporate Social Responsibility??!? It's not only Quinn & Murray who should feel aggrieved - Glasgow City Council should be holding crisis meetings all this week to come up with some sort of legal book they can throw at the BBC.
OK, we are far far away from the perfect society but it is a tiny, absolutely tiny section of our proud Glasgow community who are the repeating offenders.
I hope BBC get dragged over the coals on this. I also hope that Celtic (and even Rangers as a collaboration) commission a foreign INDEPENDANT team of journalists to carry out the real story. With the draw that we have we could easily get prime time on a more 'balanced' station.
Last thing, to go back to the harpings of many of the posters on this notice board - the whole 'they are worse than us' saga....there is one sure Pro-Active way we could deal with this as a club. Draw up a treaty....a plan...a promise to society that both clubs will stamp out all signs of bigotry within the next 5 years. Make it public, give it notable milestones and let the media get off on this. Such a promise, an absolute commitment to rule it out of society will surely publically expose Rangers Football Club if they are indeed worse than us. If they fail to meet any milestones that we do meet in our new joint public agenda then they will be exposed.
We are not perfect and I cannot see an absloute commitment from the current Leaders within CP to take us there. Until such time as Celtic admit ownership for their side of the divide - we ARE just as bad as them.
I love Celtic and I love Glasgow - both were dragged through the hedge backwards the other night on National TV and i hold Celtic more responsible than Glasgow City Council, that is for sure.
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Celtic Ultra,
There's no need to apologise over your posting. I see where you are coming from in separating folk songs and those which can be classed as Republican / IRA.
The club have obviously been going down the road in recent years to try and eliminate the singing of the latter. Indeed it only seems to be at away matches and a small section at Celtic Park that carry |
