 Monday, February 07, 2005
Sorry business behind Hay, Yorkston and Balde
While just about every other SPL team seem to be able to tax Celtic, again Dunfermline offered little opposition. They are the poorest top division team Celtic have faced in many years.
I am completely unable to pass comment on Stephan Henchoz, or any of our defence for that matter. They were untroubled spectators, so much so that Martin O’Neill decided to field both Lambert and Juninho – neither of whom will feature greatly in our future.
Dunfermline manager David Hay became Celtic manager in 1983, a halcyon time for Scottish football. Billy McNeill’s Celtic had finished second to Dundee United, pushing European Cup Winners Cup winners Aberdeen into third place.
McNeill’s Celtic team were an exiting lot. Burns, McStay, Provan, McGarvey, Aitken and McGrain were footballers who always played the game looking forward. While they were enjoyable to watch, we all knew that more shrewd teams were defending better, could hold the ball better, and in Europe where it really counted, got better results.
When Davie Hay took over from McNeill he tried to change this. Celtic players started to ‘hang back’ for the first time in my lifetime.
What transpired was a poor Celtic team. Hay played his own signing, Jim Melrose, instead of the gifted Brian McClair, a dreadful decision which even now annoys me. In transferring Frank McGarvey to St Mirren in 1985, shortly after his Cup winning goal, he took the unusual step of denying himself of a talented striker, who was also his own automatic first choice player.
The dismissal of Danny McGrain in 1987 meant that the club captain and true Celtic legend was denied to opportunity of saying his goodbye to the fans. McGrain was also a first choice player at the time.
Hay would win the most exiting league ever in 1986, beating Alex McDonald’s Hearts on goal difference in a dramatic finish which made the 2003 finish look dull. However, this could not hide the stark truth that during his time at Celtic we suffered a profound reversal in fortunes which was only truly arrested in 2000.
He was the first manager to fail to take Celtic beyond Christmas in Europe and was the first to fail to develop players from the youth squad, his only modest success being Peter Grant.
Celtic fired him in 1987, the first Celtic manager to suffer this fate instead of being invited upstairs. Interestingly Jack McGinn said at the time that he was “too nice” to be a football manager. I wonder if Brian, Frank and Danny would agree.
His time at Celtic bridged the period when Scottish teams were good at scouting, coaching and building teams, to the period when they failed to do any of these things well.
I have no wish to trouble or annoy Dunfermline fans, however, it is a measure of their club that while they once knew how to recruit the very best football managers, they are now learning lessons we learned twenty years ago about Davie Hay.
The man ultimately responsible for this situation is John Yorkston. Faced with a club which has fallen sharply since last season, and the very real possibility of relegation he has struck out.
For the record, Bobo Balde is not a dangerous player by any measure. There will unfortunately be some, who will take one look at Balde and know exactly what Yorkston meant.
I spend a fair amount of time in Fife. It is an increasingly affluent, cosmopolitan place, and Dunfermline is its vibrant commercial heart. I wish Dunfermline fans true leadership for the future.
91 Comments:
-
I heard the rantings from Mr Yorkston yesterday and must agree with MON that Yorkston's comments about Bobo are way out of order. With Yorkston and Foulkes of Hearts we are now having to listen to moans and groans from people who have no football history or background but seem to like the noise of their own voices. There is never anything constructive to be said from them but they always feel the need to bitch!!
-
Each time we play Dunfermline this man feels the need to stir up some sort of controversy, he always has something to say about us. Should we therefore not just ignore his small mindedness and continue to rack up another win when we visit.
The more of a reaction he seems to get the more vociferous he appears to become.
-
I agree Paul
Dont think Hay is the right man for a team like Dunfermline
I have many Pars fans who are increasingly worried about the future with Hay at the helm.
And your comments regarding the town of Dunfermline surprise me!
Having lived there for 20 years, thats the first time i have heard it being called 'vibrant'
-
Yorkston is a mouthy egomaniac. His own players know it, and so does everyone else.
Of course the press lap it up, because mouthy egomaniacs give good headlines.
-
I thoroughly enjoyed yesterday's game. The game was over as a contest inside 10 minutes, which meant I had a nice relaxing day of sitting in the sunshine watching us control a game.
I thought Henchoz had a solid debut. To be fair, I could have had a solid debut in our defence yesterday, as Dunfermline were truly awful. Henchoz looked a little too eager to impress in the early stages and looked a little rusty when going forward, but he was solid in defence and will be better for having 90 minutes under his belt.
Sutton was immense. Again. He is the standout in our team this season and it will amaze me if he does not get the POTY award (although the journalists will probably award it to Bazza and Boumsong to share!).
Even though the game was over, I enjoyed the last 20 minutes immensely. MON, for once, brought on 3 subs. We then had Juninho, McGeady and Wallace on the pitch at the same time. Each time these 3 got the ball, their first instinct was to take it forward and try to beat their man. I love watching football like that and it was a refreshing change. I thought Wallace looked very hungry for the game and he was out to impress. He made a few runs and crosses that made an impact on me (for what that is worth).
I thought it was a sound, professional performance for the bhoys. A few players got a game, a few got a rest, and coupled with the Bellamy signing, morale appears to be high. Roll on the 20th.
PS. Pittodrie or Easter Road in the draw, anyone?
-
Yes, there was a time many, many moons ago when Dunfermline was a force to be reckoned with and Celtic had trouble getting points in the Kingdom.
Now they are brushed aside like swatting a fly. If I was their Chairman I would be more concerned with that embarrassment of a team who can't put on a strong effort, than trying to score points off of Balde, Celtic and the pitch. But then again I dont believe I'm a donkey's ass.
Yorkston, Foulkes et al, don't get me started....
-
good performance and for the 1st time this year the hoops bury a team within the 1st 15 mins of the game.
Agree with Brian 74 it was good to see 3 attacking ball players on the park for the last 20 mins with wee wallace being the pick of the bunch.
Still was disappointed with Juninho's effort surely he should trying to impress more?
Not going to comment on yorkston as he is a fud and always will be.
Paul67 bit young to remember the in's and outs of Davie Hay's reign as manager but he did give me my 1st taste of dramatic cup final victories, oh hampden in the rain, and 1st taste of winning the league that day at love street.
Those memories of mcgarvey scoring the winner and of love street going mental when Albert Kidd scored at Dens Park set me on the way to being the fan i am now!!!!
Heady days for a ten year old!!!!!!
Ah love street wonder if nike will bring back that lime green top............
-
Fargo, How do you become acquainted to someone like Sarah Faberge anyway?
-
Some interesting thoughts on Hay from you guys - interesting reading 4 me being a pars fan.
I agree that we didn't give you guys much of a game, and I'm not happy with that. Ruined the match in the first 9 minutes. We're going through a bad patch right now, but I'm sure we'll improve.
There's a few things I'd like to set straight though. The article above is well written and looks like a fairly reasonable person wrote it.
Yorkston obviously is taking a fair bit of stick for the Balde comment. But, he was only getting back at O'Neil for the constant rubbish he spouts about our pitch. Fair enough, he doesn't like it, and fair enough he's not the only one either. It's the "this pitch is dangerous" comments we can't stand. Our injuries last season were almost non-existent (hence the relative success we had). This season, things are certainly a lot worse, but they are COMPLETELY UNREALATED to the pitch. There is no evidence whatsoever that the pitch causes injuries. This is the only way the "meeja" in this country will ever listen to anything that non OF teams say. In the lead up to the game, any comment on the pitch came from MON, no quotes from us defending it. So you see, it's the only way we (the "diddy" teams) can get any coverage.
I think it's been blown out of all proportion, and it's used as a pathetic excuse to bring up the Sutton nonsense. Lets all try and move on from that.
Artificial pitchs, like it or not, are now part of the game. Ours is poor just now, no question about it. It's part of an experiment, and will be changed for a better one soon. Other SPL (and now Serie A) clubs are seriously looking at them. Only by experiments will we eventually develop an artifical pitch thats as good as grass. Celtic are a good passing team, and many aspects of the surface will suit them, i.e. a flat, fast surface.
Lets look at the big picture here.
-
Paul - another good article re yesterays game, your articles are well written and always interesting. However here's a couple of points to consider, in last season's Scottish Cup final, the 'the poorest top division team Celtic have faced in many years' were leading Celtic 1-0 early in the 2cnd half when they were denied a stonewall penalty after big Bobo jumped up and handled in the box as he is prone to do. 2-0 at that stage and we may not have had the fairytale ending to Henrik's carrer that we did have. Livingston under Davie Hay won the Scottish League Cup last season. He can't be that bad. If its duff Celtic Managers you are looking for there is quite a few ahead of him, Liam Brady, Joe Jordan, Lou Macari quickly come to mind. Yorkston's comments re big Bobo being responsible for more injuries than the plastic surface was clearly a joke, I'm disappointed we have taken it seriously.
Desktop Davie
-
Paul,
I take it from what you have written that you are not a big fan of Davie Hays.
Did anyone notice Paul Lambert yesterday? He was wearing a pair of slip on shoes. McManus had a pair of Puma Match on as well.
Tony Mallaghan, Nith Path
-
not unreasonable post but then the last paragraph appeared. Fife - cosmopolitan ! You're at the madam.
-
Desktop Davie, I think you're forgetting that in that same match we had a perfectly good goal chopped off for some bizaare reason as well as a decent penalty shout ourselves.
As for Sunday I thought it was deadly dull. I'm almost glad my motherboard gave up the ghost and forced me to spend money I'd probably have spent on the match. ;o)
-
From reading a lot of comments on this site many are of the belief that it is inevitable the old firm will be plying their trade in the EPL by the time the next decade dawns.
Fair Enough. What though will happen in regards to european qualification. Will the English FA suddenly change the rules they've enforced (remember swansea qualified once but couldn't compete) to prevent any welsh teams who might get that high up the table to take part in Europe. Will fans be satisfied with no more european football?
HarshRealm
-
Hi Paul,
don't know if it was yourself or not , but i read a post hinting about the possible buying of an english side probably MK Dons in order to gain access to the chosen land of the English League. Whilst i enjoy topical debate, i have found the recent posts such as: JP McManus investing in Celtic/Celtic going to the premiership highly irritating and wide of the mark. In recent posts i must be coming across as someone with a chip on their shoulder, but as i have said on many occasions i always try to be as constructive as i can. You come across as reasonably intelligent & explain points really well, so i'm surprised that you don't knock these posts on the head.
-
If you walk on an icy road, you take precautions to avoid slipping and injury. Therefore if you play on a treacherous surface you likewise adjust your style,result, fewer injuries. One reason, I think that we roll Dunfermline over easier than most is precisely because of the non - tackling nature of the surface which prevents them from getting in amongst us allowing us to pass them off the park.
Keep up the good work (St.)Paul to Tim(othy).
-
To Hapster.
You said that the Yorkston comments were used as a pathetic excuse to bring up the Sutton thing again.
lets move on from that ,you say. Well Hapster it certainly was not Celtic supporters who were booing Chris Sutton every time he touched the ball. I presume you will readily own up to it being supporters of the home team who apparently refuse to move on .
Our manager made what he considered to be correct and fair comment about plastic football pitches, his comments had nothing to do with the opposing team club or players. it was in no way a personal attack on anybody connected with Dunfermline Football Club.
For the chairman of that club to, even jokingly, involve a player from an opposing team shows a contemptiousness that belittles the position he holds.When the top man un the club is so crass and insulting, the whole club is tarnished.
Your chairman, manager and several of your players were very vocal in their condemnation of Chris Sutton in the immediate aftermath of that game at Ibrox. Several months later in the first game of the new season Celtic were being warned not to bring Chris Sutton antwhere near East End Park that day, never mind play him, and here we are today some 18 months later and the player is still being booed by the home support, and you call it an excuse for our club to bring it up again.It would appear to me thatyour support has never moved on. Perhaps if a similar site is open to your support you could beseech them to "MOVE ON"
Martin 42.
-
Paul,
Have to to say that your thoughts on Davie Hay do you a dis-service. I have read you before berating people for being uncharitable to current players and I think a man of Davie Hay's standing deserves more respect. This is a guy who has devoted much of his adult life to Celtic as a great player, decent manager and very good chief scout. I think also you have a skewed memory of that time, maybe legitimate mistakes like melrose lodge in your brain and colour the rest of your perception. The statement "during his time at Celtic we suffered a profound reversal in fortunes which was only truly arrested in 2000" is rubbish. The seeds of decline were sown well before he arrived, as much caused off the park than on it, compare the records as managers of Hay and McNeill (obviously someone you rate as a manager)away from celtic, Hay is the winner by a mile.
In terms of youth development, unless a manager has a 10 year stint in charge, the product of youth development is very much the success of the previous regime, the one thing you can say about Hay is that he can spot a player!
I also had to laugh at the "hang back" comment, having delighted in our recent successes and come accustomed to MON's style of play, Hay's teams were positively cavalier by comparison.
I'm usually in agreement with most of what you write but on this occasion there was something missing that you usually have a good dose of - balance.
-
Ogma
I do good business in Dunfermline, I wish my native Lanarkshire was as prosperous.
Brain74
Agree about Ross Wallace, he had an excellent time.
Good to hear from you Hapster, I’ll take on board your comments about the pitch. As for media coverage, we hate what Celtic get, and I don’t know why any ‘provincial’ club fans buy newspapers at all.
Maybe ask your chums not to boo Chris Sutton, or worse Aiden McGeady for reasons best left unsaid.
Desktop Davie, Dunfermline were a decent side last season, as we know to our cost, but they are well off that level now. No arguments about our other poor managers.
Tony Mallaghan
Celtic reversed during the Davie Hay period. Everyone in Scotland knew he was playing Jim Melrose because he had spent money on him and Billy McNeill had bought McClair.
Pride before points.
Anon 2.05, I am telling you, Fife is the new New York :-)
HarshRealm, I am pretty sure that your Swansea info is not correct, however, if Celtic and Rangers gain access to the EPL they will compete for a European place in the same manner as Monaco do in France or Berwick do in Scotland.
VargasShampoo
I believe we are going to the Premiership.
While I might be wrong in this, I do think that discussion of how and indeed why has value here. Our board have two years to get us into England before the new TV deals are struck there. This is what we should be focussing their mind on and what we should be measuring them against.
Sorry if it appears irrelevant to the day to day stuff, and far from hitting it on the head I have been encouraging debate (and will do so again).
The prize is big enough to throw a few strategies about.
Stepjam
Agree to disagree on the subject of Davie Hay. My thoughts are based on more than just his time as manager. He was not too “devoted” as a player.
There was also the messy business around Paul Lambert’s singing, which seen Hay dump Jock Brown (and by default Celtic) with a lot of bad publicity.
I never objected to the “hang back” style, which, as I pointed out, others were prospering with, however, it Celtic never managed to do it right. We lost what McNeill had without replacing it with anything.
-
-
I had been looking forward to yesterdays game, ever since we made our transfer window signings. Come 1350 yesterday, i was astounded at the dross served up.
Dont get me wrong, i thought we played as well as we needed to, but how Dunfermline can be "a top flight side" is beyond me. This was one of the most un-competitive cup games i have ever seen.
It is these sort of games that helps me understand why there is little atmosphere in our domestic game.
-
I live in the Kingdom and speak to Pars fans on a fairly regular basis. They are unhappy with Hay. They are also unhappy with the plastic pitch and feel the games have become devoid of any atmosphere. Yorkston is a total balloon, a guy out of his depth. A classic case of a supporter with money buying his way into a job he doe not have the skills for.
I took a fair bit of stick from Dunfermline fans for defending Chris Sutton after that Rangers game. I’m hoping there may be a response in the local Dunfermline Press to the latest Yorkston mouth not engaging with brain incident. Given that Jimmy Calderwood is no longer a local hero in Dunfermline, I suspect more Dunfermline supporters would be willing to reconsider the Chris Sutton incident.
If anyone has the resources/anorak url at hand, could someone please give me Dunfermline’s results at Ibrox over the last 5/6 seasons? Any “wee” team going to Parkhead or Ibrox, yes, even Ibrox, needs extra motivation, organisation and a winning mentality to avoid a thumping. I was resigned to Dunfermline getting a doing that day, because Dunfermline had been getting a doing at Ibrox on a consistent basis for years. If you think of what Chris Sutton actually said ; “we expected Dunfermline to lie down” there was strong statistical evidence, that unless Dunfermline were prepared to do something they hadn’t done in a long time and in a game where Rangers were totally fired up and Dline had nothing to gain, it was always a matter of how many. All the stats prior to this game, and interestingly enough since then, have shown D/line to have a thoroughly miserable record at Ibrox. I think they've only won there once since we moved to decimal currency. By contrast, even in the last couple of years Dline have drawn with Rangers and beaten them at East End.
I add into this, a conversation I had with a BBC radio journalist on the way home after the cup final. He asked me my take on the Sutton thing and I told him I had no confidence in Calderwood motivating his players on the day. He would at best ask them to go out and not embarrass themselves. He told me he met Calderwood at the Players Awards shortly before Seville. Asked about his thoughts on the Rangers game, knowing the significance for the title, Calderwood said he would “take four”. Beaten before they went on the park. I imagine Calderwood and his ilk are well known in the goldfish bowl of Scottish football. Chris Sutton would know Calderwood’s approach fine well. Is there anyone in Scottish football who thinks Dunfermline were “up for it” that day? Chris Sutton answered an honest question in an honest way and got a ban for it. Yorkston then inflamed the situation in a desperate attempt to sell tickets. If Sutton gets a 5 match ban, what should happen to Yorkston?
While I'll always be an incomer here, I'll need to defend the Fifers (my wife'll kill me if I don't!). It was a small, albeit unacceptable, minority booing wee Aiden and the pars fans in general are a committed an unbigoted bunch. The ones I know prefer us to TFOD and there is a long standing good relationship between the club and Celtic. Yorkston is out of step with his own supporters. The town itself is growing by the day, with new housing to cater for the Edinburgh overspill. There are not many decent pubs, but a few excellent restaurants. And if you are golf minded, this place is hog heavan. Anyone interested in a CQN Open once the better weather arrives (and I get my eye in..) I'll put something together to silence the doubters!
Taggsybhoy
-
Paul,
the information is 100% correct ;)
1981-1982
1 Liverpool
2 Ipswich Town
3 Manchester United
4 Tottenham Hotspur
5 Arsenal
6 Swansea City
7 Southampton
Uefa Cup participants in 82-83 subsequently:
Man United, Arsenal, Ipswich and Southampton
Cup winners tottenham,
Champions Cup were villa/pool
Swansea had to go and win the welsh cup in order to qualify for the cup winners cup that year.
The precedent was set and the English FA haven't budged on the matter since...of course if
Celtic renounced any association with scotland and essentially became 'english' by being
part of the EFL, then they could participate that way?
HarshRealm
-
paul,
i have never heard as much slanderish rubbish in all my life. Davie Hay was a footballing legend at Celtic, who if it was not for some numty in the jungle would have won Celtic the Cup Winners Cup in 1984. Despite being continually denied money by the Celtic board, he provided the Celtic support with an excellent football side and trophies to match.
With regards the Youth Team and Peter Grant. Thats a laugh. After Peter, we had Brian O'Neill, and then Simon Donnelly. Since Simon NO Celtic Youth Team player has broken the first team mould at Celtic Park and held the position for one season. That is £2m down the drain EVERY year. Dr Jo (excellent coach) was not a success because he played Mark Burchill. He knew that all the youth team players were rubbish.
I always remember Davie Hay on when Mo Johnston left Celtic for Nantes. It went something like "I was upset he left us but after half an hour i forgot about it" It was magic.
Jose Mourinho could not do anything with Dunfermline. Don't blame Davie Hay !
-
okay Paul
so you don't rate Davie Hay but I must take you to task on a couple of points. firstly, but for a disgraceful decision by uefa against rapid vienna we would have been in europe after christmas and the way celtic were playing that season could have gone all the way to the final. Also, all the players that you mentioned McStay, Burns, Mcgarvey Provan etc all played under hay as well and i don't recall our style of play changing that much if at all. one thing that i do agree with and that is that under messrs mcneil, hay and burns we were tacticly naive and this was not addressed until wim jansen came on the scene. some might say that the football we are playing right now is not as good as we were under burns but the difference is we are winning things.
hamiltonbhoy
-
Greetings, Paul67 et al,
Really eye-opening revelations regarding Mr.David's almost pedestrian sojourn at Paradise.Thanks for filling in some blanks,Paul. It explains a lot about the change that began to occur in Celtic's approach play.
Unfortunately I was not present in the flesh, to witness what you have now pointed out. In those days, instant communication was not so available as it is now. My knowledge of all of the ins and outs that were taking place at Celtic Park, was limited to word of mouth and the occasional Sunday Post. (" Your Sainted Mama, God Bless her Soul, sure loved the H.O.N.".....Vito, Reminisced.... " Yeah! And I sure had a crush on Maggie...By the way, whatever happened to the Broons, are the still extant?")
You know, Paul, what you have just brought up, concerning such a chequered and unimpressive period of Celtic history, emphasizes the monumental and humongous improvement that has taken place,under the sound and skill guidance of Mr. Martin.(" Aye, and don't exclude the wonderful and equally skillful guidance of Messrs. Desmond, Quinn and the rest of the Celtic Board.") Vito wisely observed.
Anyone, who has the temerity to disparage,the performance of the above Super Navigators, should be lashed twice with a wet noodle and dispatched to watch the grass grow at Hampden Park.I am sure that they will have then found their true purpose in life.("Personally I would have banished them to The Land of the Lotus Eaters!") This from Collie, always a one for the dramatic.
I am having a little lull in the action,here at the H.Q., They are in heavy consultation with their Lawyers. ("Won't do Them no good, will it, Boss?" asked Vito."No Vito, I am afraid that we have them by the short coiffure, Vito."
"And the above para. was a "non sequitur", was it not?" added Collie.
"Absolutely, Mr.C........Bravo" From Fargo, laughing.
See you later,Yow Lung! ("Say , What?.."Vito exploded...."I told you , you were getting lazy. ... Go figure.")
So so ( Wow a Twoser!.....Great!) long OOLONG! Gotta be ramblin' on!
Fargo, at GHQ.
-
ross county/clyde Versus CELTIC FC in the cup. Stroll into the semis?
-
Collie====> Connoly? Nah. Too easy. in fact, well. Ach, you never know
-
Hi Paul,
I have been reading your site for some time now, and have been privoked into posting for the first time by comments made about Davie Hay. I have spoken to a couple of ex-celtic players relating to your article to try to get an inside view.
Your points about Melrose seem to be correct and reflected by the playing personnel of the day. Indeed it was a generally held view that Davie Hay seemed to stick to his "vision" of the team as oppose to playing the best players available. This is why he consistently played Melrose even although his form was very poor, and indeed why he departed with McGarvey in 1985. His reason given to McGarvey for the departure was that his "vision" was to have Mo Johnson and Brian McClair upfront as a partnership with Allan McCinally in reserve. No consideration was given to the fact that McGarvey was the on form striker at the time. McGarvey recalls in fact that his best football was played in 1986 for St Mirren.
Overall, in terms of his management style, I have heard players recollecting that he was "honest to a fault" or sometimes "lacking in basic logic."
My personal view is that Davie Hay has made some mistakes, which he himself has admitted since in actual fact. However, I would not like to think that the celtic support in general would remember his contribution to the club an negative overall. He certainly has a love for the club and some of the players he has brought in especially as a scout have been fantastic.
-
Dunfermline as 'cosmopolitan' and 'vibrant'? Keep taking the pills old bean. I worked there for three months solid within its commercial 'heart'. Every bugger there was happy to leave as soon as work finished and race across the Forth Road Bridge as fast as their Lexuses and Mercs could carry them. People on the East Neuk in their little fishing villages still go to Edina to stock up on cheese and Merlot.
Highly selective biog of Davie Hay as well. If you dont mind me saying.
-
Paul67, I must admit I was surprised by the tenor of your uncharacteristically-vitriolic attack on Davie Hay, a man rightly held in high regard by the majority of Celtic fans. He was a mainstay of the team in the early 1970s and would have stayed for a lot longer if our board had not been so duplicitous and grasping. It was THEY who wanted him to move so they could get their hands on Chelsea's cash.
He returned in 1983 at a stage when Billy McNeill had been sacked by a board who couldn't understand why Celtic had failed to pip a Dundee United side which was en route to the European Cup semi-final, even though Caesar's thrilling side had finished above an Aberdeen side which had just won the European Cup Winner's Cup. Charlie Nic had also departed and Davie was given just a pittance to replace him with, hence the signing of Jim Melrose. At that stage Brian McClair was only 20 and had just turned full-time after years at university. He wasn't ready... yet. And it didn't take Davie long to realise Melrose was a dud. He was in the reserves by the turn of the year and was sold in 1984.
Davie was certainly more pragmatic and less cavalier in his tactics than Billy McNeill but their records at clubs away from Parkhead show which approach was more successful. The 5-0 demolitions of Sporting Lisbon and, of glorious memory, St Mirren showed his teams knew how to turn it on when necessary. His limited (but historic) trophy successes can be partially excused by the fact he was up against the best Dundee United and Aberdeen teams in these clubs' histories, albeit one of the worst TFOD outfits.
But Paul, are you REALLY trying to defend Jock Brown's transfer meddling in the Wim Jansen era? If you're taking that self-obsessed chancer's side in discussing one of the most shameful episodes in recent Celtic history then you are in a very small minority.
Last season Davie Hay took a team from administration to the League Cup. He's now taken over a Pars outfit bereft of a forward line since the departures of Crawford and Brewster.
Yes, yesterday was easy. But that was because we scored with our first two attacks (and BBJ got away with a clever foul for the first) and were able to cruise from then on in.
In conclusion, Paul, by all means have a go at that buffoon Yorkston but I feel your comments about Davie Hay are more than unfair.
-
OK Bhoys and Ghirls, chew on this one.
Congrats to the hoops for a fine 3-0 win
Malcolm Glazer has launched a third attempt to buy Manchester United.
John Magnier and JP McManus, who own 28.9% of MU, will lose.
Glazer will eventually take control of the biggest club in the world.
John Magnier and JP McManus will be looking for a fresh avenue, and Glasgow Celtic fit the bill.
Come on the Hoops.
-
Celtic looked very bright and confident yesterday, I think there was a new-found buzz about them, probably thanks to the transfer activity.
Pity they didn't add to the 1st half three, but Dunfermline (and Davie Hay!!!) must be given some credit for not imploding a la DUFC and indeed were unlucky not to snatch a consolation goal.
However, I can't understand MON playing Lambert (and to a lesser extent Junhino).
At 3 goals to the good, it was a perfect opportunity to give a couple of youngsters a run.
Look how Wallace reacted when he came on - he was brilliant. Certainly, a lot more decisive in his play than either McGeady or Junhino.
As for Yorkston, we shouldn't flatter him by giving him so much attention.
Just ignore the guy and don't make it easy for the red tops.
Looking forward to seeing CB next weekend. The squad is looking very good at the moment with plenty of competition in all departments.
Probably more than enough for the double, but I'm not so sure about CL.
Still one or two key positions were we need real class additions.
tickety-boo
-
Paul,
Have to admit in common with a few others to being surprised and disappointed about your comments concerning Davie Hay. I'm a little too young to remember him in the Hoops, but my uncle was fortunate enough to play against Celtic on a number of occasions. He rated Hay very highly as player, having played also against most of the Lions.
He wasn't a perfect manager, but trying to construct a team with THAT board would have been well nigh impossible. As has been pointed out there were one or two useful sides around as well. I pretty much bleed green but the Dundee United side which was cheated out of a European Cup final place was perhaps the best Scottish side I have seen 'live'. As scout some of the talent he brought to the club(when we were still operating on the cheap) demonstrated he certainly knew a player when he saw one.
I might be proved wrong but I've never seen him be anything other than dignified under particularly trying times at Livingston. Indeed he is always complimentary about the strengths of the Celtic side.
Many things are about opinion but when that opinion relies on a traverse through mistakes made by someone who served(and given the returns served would mean served) the club on more than one occasion-and brought trophies to the club on those occasions-I think you have lowered the standards of your otherwise excellent site.
-
A quick addendum re Brown/Hay. I have had the misfortune to encounter Brown in his other professional capacity. To say he is a first-class arse is an understatement. His current stint on Setanta does nothing to dispel that long-held impresssion.
-
Further to the Davie Hay debate, never heard the like of that my life. Not only did he give me the greatest day of my fledgling Celtic career at Love St. He was also responsible for some of our most exciting and imaginative,(and profitable) signings in my lifetime in DiCanio,Van Hooijdonk and Cadete. I would in all honesty have him back as a scout without hesitation.
Brian G
-
Taggsybhoy
did i hear of a CQN open of golf at Pitreavie or Pitfarrane?
Maybe get Fargo over as well cos he aint bad with a mashie niblick and spoon ;)
Ill away and get my clubs then.....
-
Tom the Tim, thanks for your support, I appreciate it.
HarshRealm, I stand corrected, thanks for putting me right. I am sure you are also correct that Celtic could choose to compete from England and not Scotland.
Timtales, Simon Donnelly broke into the team under Lou Macari and Brian O’Neill was 13 years old when Hay left Celtic. Celtic won nothing during season ’83 – ’84 and I am pretty sure would not have won the Cup Winners Cup if the correct result had stood against Rapid Vienna.
In four years he won one league, one cup and no league cups, which only just qualifies for the plural “trophies to match”. I remember it clearly as a time when we failed to compete against Scottish opposition who themselves were losing ground in Europe.
Hamiltonbhoy, Hay did try to instil some defensive discipline, it just didn’t work.
Fargo, the Sunday Post, you know no-one ever complains about their football coverage on Celtic Quick News. Either they are peerless, or perhaps no-one reads the anymore outside the key demographic of The Pioneers society.
Twenty years from now someone called Paul09 (after the next European Championship) will be telling the tale of how Fergus, Martin, Dermot and friends ditched the Loser tag and made our team winners again.
I am still trying to unravel your recent mutterings, my Latin is not all it could be.
McGarveybhoy, I will take your comments on board and give DH a break. Managers playing their own signings instead of the best players is a known phenomenon and I was pretty sure that Hay had fallen into this trap (unlike MON who will keep Juninho on the bench no matter what).
Alright Johnbhoy, ExiiledinAberdeenTim, Brian G, I will leave DH reputation well in tact in future. No attempt was meant to back up Jock Brown, a sorry time all round. Billy McNeill resigned in 1983, though he was dealing with a board I would also have resigned from. And the excellent Dundee United team failed to win anything under DH time at Celtic.
Chewing away bogjoe.
-
Celtic did all that was required to win the game yesterday, then it was cruise control from then on in. We didn't look too interested in doing much other than keep the ball in the 2nd half. Similar story to most games this season.How cold was it in the main stand tho??
The Pars were very poor. I'm sorry its not working out for Davie Hay at Dunfermline. I've met the man a few times as he's been a legend on each occasion. I have nothing but good memories of his tenures as manager of the hoops. I hope things get better for Davie soon.
Re the move to the English leagues. The MK Dons (or similar) route should be a non starter. We don't need to buy our way into their league and fight our way through the divisions and miss Europe for however many years it takes. If it does happen we'll be invited onto the top table.
Not sure about it being 2007 but only time will tell. The biggest clue however will be the resignation notice we have to hand into the SPL with 12 months notice......
-
"What transpired was a poor Celtic team. Hay played his own signing, Jim Melrose, instead of the gifted Brian McClair, a dreadful decision which even now annoys me"
I've just sussed out who you are..... Paul67.
I remember quite a few conversations with you about 5-6 yrs ago in Livingston.
Great site keep up the good work!
P.S. I followed the sun and headed over the hills.
-
Kircargo, drop me an email and I’ll tell you if you if you are right 1967@lisbonlions.com
-
Paul,sorry to harp on about Hay's time at Paradise but for the record,as we all know;
Aberdeen won the European cup winners cup in 83,Dundee United reached (and were robbed in) the European cup semi final in 84 and reached the Uefa Cup final in 87.
In between times the Souness "revolution" came along and changed Scottish Football (for the better???).
Heady times indeed,now THAT was a league that took some winning.(Just ask Hearts fans,haha...I'm forever blowing doubles..)
Would agree that Danny McGrain should have been treated with more dignity though, he was after all THE GREATEST!
Brian G
Coatbridge.
-
I've been a frequent visitor to CQN for a couple of months now, and I've been pleasantly surprised by the knowledge and content of the letters compared to other inferior sites. However, this is the first time I've been compelled to write myself.
I must say I was somewhat taken aback by Paul’s opinion of David Hay as a manager. Personally, I thought the guy was a great boss, and could spot a player a mile off. OK, I agree that he must have consumed two gallons of Stella Artios, and a bottle of Johnny Walker Black Label when he signed Melrose, but apart from him, he never brought in too many duds. I vividly recall that A-Hole scoring for Partick at Firhill one day against us, and looking straight in my general direction, giving us Tims the V sign. I could never take to him after that, even when he wore the sacred hoops. He was utter crud into the bargain.
Added to that, the fact Hay’s hands were severely tied (as were Cesar’s) by the grossly incompetent, and miserly board. Who can forget him telling Jack McGinn he wanted to sign Chelsea’s Scottish center-half, Joe McLaughlin, only for the bold Jack to retort, “Ye’ll need tae buy him wi the money oot yer ain poakit, Davie”. You couldn’t make it up!
Peter Grant? Do us a favour. The Maestro had a back like Quasi Modo from carrying him. OK, I’m well aware Peter was Celtic through and through, and God bless him for it, but so is every one of us here. I mean, would you accept Bartholomew Dick performing in our central midfield? Of course not, we prefer him singing The Celtic Song, because I’m sure you know, that was Glen Daly’s real name.
Taggsybhoy…. I’m convinced I know you, (not that I’d ever dream of exposing you to the world, you understand!) It’s just certain comments you’ve made, and your suggestion regarding a CQN Golf Open, that finally did it for me. I reckon you, M McL, Bendy The Mule and me, had a round on Annanhill in Kilmarnock nearly four years ago. Well OK, you three played, I just staggered along suffering the mother of all hangovers. You see, I was drowning my sorrows until 5 o’clock that same morning, after the evil huns had beaten us in the Scottish Cup Final the day before. If it is you, you will remember The Mule got whacked with a Top-Flight 3 on the elbow from somebody’s errant drive. I know it was that particular make of ball, because the imprint can still be read on his puny arm. It was the first I’d laughed since 3pm, the previous day.
All the best
PM Fae Stevenston
-
Last word on Hay: Paul says we wouldn't have won the UEFA Cup the year Rapid put us out (with the connivance of UEFA) but I was at the final in Rotterdam when a good Everton team beat a rank-rotten shower of dirty, cheating, Austrian (lot of asterisks to follow!) and I reckon that game could have been a classic if we'd been there with McGarvey, McClair, McStay, Burns, McLeod, Aitken, McGrain, Bonner et al, backed by 30,00 fans. The following season we drew 1-1 at Atletico Madrid (Judas scored), then lost at home in the surreal no-crowd encounter. And I remember, after the Love Street glory day, being one of the 100 Celtic fans in the Soviet Union when we went down 3-1 to a truly excellent Dynamo Kiev side. The events of that couple of days in the Ukraine would make for a classic comedy play. I'm going to start working on it soon.
Anyway, add in the board Hay had to deal with and it's clear Davie had little luck in Paradise.
Going back quite a way to the Hapster post from the Dunfermline fan, he tries to claim his pitch isn't dangerous. Firstly, as artificial surfaces go, his team's is far too bare for decent football. That apart, a Sports Illustrated article a few years back examined the number of serious injuries recorded in American football games played on astroturf and grass. The difference was alarming.
And just the other week I was talking to a hockey coach who was pointing out that in Holland (the top country in Europe for that sport) the trend is to change artificial surfaces back to grass because of the number of serious injuries suffered by young players.
As an amateur player of post-veteran status, I was always well aware of the added pain in my joints I felt after a game on an artificial surface. And it was during a match on the plastic pitch across from Ibrox that I suffered the worst injury of my (albeit ordinary) career.
As Edwyn Collins might have said of East End Park's current surface: Rip It Up and start again!
-
Excellent thread this one.
Just thought I'd add a couple of my own opinions:
SFA INVESTIGATING COMMENTS MADE: I know I should probably not rake over these particular coals, but it has returned to the limelight, somewhat. Just BEFORE the Rangers - Dunfermline game in 2003, Jimmy Calderwood was interviewed and said something to effect that "it was great to be here on such an occasion". Now what bothers me about this is that unless he knew something no one else did, then the "occasion" could just as easily have been happening 30 odd miles away in Kilmarnock. Yet nobody at the SFA thought this worthy of investigation or did they already have Chris Sutton in their sights by then.
DAVIE HAY
I'll add myself to the list of dissenters, Paul. Admittedly Hay's time is shrouded by many years of alcohol abuse, but my recollection of his tenure is that he was more sinned against than sinner. He was dealing with the most miserly, incompetent, self-serving group of people to have been associated with Celtic in my lifetime (as an aside, I met one of the Kellys at a small business on the southside of Glasgow once - I can't remember which one, now there's impact for you - everyone was very deferential calling him "Mr Chairman", but he was simply an eejit)and I doubt anyone could have made a success of Celtic at that time.
THE PITCH
Yes it would appear that there are fewer injuries on their pitch than before, but it's easy to see why. Players are holding back for fear of serious injury. I recall BBJ cautiously pulling up at one stage because he knew he was going to go over and possibly injure himself. But, if the Pars are allowed to continue with the synthetic surface, then it's almost inevitable that there is going to be a serious injury on the pitch one day. Of course, that won't make any difference to our media chums, unless, of course the injury is to an Orc, in which case, you can expect the cries of "No Fair" to be heard throughout the land.
-
peterm1711
Got it in one! You should be a Private eye! Paul will be delighted to know he's now running a Friends reunited site as well as a Celtic chatroom! How can I forget Bendy getting walloped by that missile! At the risk of boring CQN readers, I'm actually going out to France to see MMcL this weekend to kick his a**e over 36 holes or so. As you can imagine, he got a sky dish off the back of a lorry and we'll catch the Inverness match in his house! Mel never divorced him for leaving his honeymoon short to go to Seville. I'm sure you've been in touch with him.
Ogma, thanks for the suggestion. I was actaully thinking of the silver sands of Aberdour. The pro's a Celtic fan and would make sure we all had a good day. Paul owns the franchise for the brand name of CQN, so its his call if we can have a CQN Open! Don't know if you play Paul, but if not, you are more than welcome to award the cup! Apologies once again to the non-golfers. Fargo, you are more than welcome. Keep in touch PM fae Stevenson.
Taggsybhoy
-
Taggsybhoy
I am not a golfer, but would be more than happy to attend for a social visit.
Wonder if we can get a sponsor for the cup?
-
The situation with Welsh clubs in Europe has changed since the Swansea example used. In those days the Welsh preferred to qualify for Europe via the 'back-door' of the Welsh cup. UEFA put a stop to that loophole which is why teams like Inter Tel (or whatever their called) have been appearing in Europe recently. If we did play in the EPL we'd have to qualify via it and couldn't get in by playing in the say the Scottish Cup.
-
Hi Paul
was only young at the time, went to Love street on 8th Birthday 1986, but I also agree with others that you are too harsh on David Hay. Hay did his best under the circumstances. Yes, as with other managers there are question marks. even O'Neill has his question marks. The 1980's was a different era, where a number of teams were genuinely of a much more level playing field than now.
Hay was restrained by the lack of ambition of the ancien regime. Look at the players we know he was trying to bring in, McLeish, Strachan, Clarke. If yuo add them into that Celtic line up I believe he could have taken us further.
Were people like McGrain not more shafted by the board at the time? I have never really seen any ex-players slating hay.
As for his post Celtic career, I think he has done ok given the circumstances. Ask most St mirren fans and they will claim he done well given the resources, ditto with Livi. and don't forget he's a Lillestrom legend
-
I know this is slightly off topic with the current thread.
Suppose both us and TFOD get into the EPL and leave the scottish league behind. Over the course of 30 years , say, Hearts (heaven forbid) have become the league winners for 10 years in a row. Will they then progress to the EPL as their stature increases? I know their fan base will be smaller but if they, like us, become too big for scotland, whats stoppin them moving to England.
Also, could a lesser English side apply to play in the scottish premier for 40 years or so just to improve finances then move back again? Not sure of the comparable tv revenues for the likes of ICT and Bradford.
Anyway, these analogies go way over my head.
Its all these mutterings of a prestigious 'CQN Open'™ goin to my head!
-
Brian G. Agree McGrain was the Greatest! Paisley that day was on par with Seville (slight difference in weather as I recall...). Funniest thing about Albert Kidd scoring was that all the Huns had thought Walter Kidd was the scorer & had started celebrating at Ibrox! Celtic played Dundee in the opening game of the following season & Albert got some reception from jungle! Back when Scottish football was good....how times have changed!
SWBhoy.
-
Paul.
I seem to remember in your post on Celtic playing in the premiership that you stated that you didn't believe that Cubic Expression would be investing in the club, instead you said that it would be someone else.
Even after NeilR asked the same question to you in a later post, he received no answer.
This puzzles me greatly.
Surely this would be seen as a great piece of business, ie, sell all your holdings in Man Utd at a greatly inflated price and invest some of your vast profits in Celtic Shares.
The way I see it is that Cubic Expression would be in a no lose situation.
They would be buying into a potential goldmine, in terms of global branding, that Peter Lawwell himself has gone on record in saying could be bigger than Man Utd should Celtic manage to gain access to the EPL so therefore I cant imagine why they wouldn't want a piece of the action.
DD has long standing business tie ins with Magnier and Mcmanus so what makes you think that they wont be investing in Celtic?
It looks like Malcolm Glazer will get his way with Man Utd, his offer will eventually prove too inviting for shareholders to resist, so I cant seem to follow your logic on this one.
I can remember Fargo hinting that Celtic was DD's baby but with Cubic Expression behind us we would surely be strengthened.
Look forward to your thoughts on this one, as always.
Hail,hail.
-
Sheepworryingbhoy
Remember the day well, and the talk that the rain that poured on us all day was supposed to have been irradiated by Chernobyl. Strange then that 19 years later, the mutants are all still to be found at Ibrox. On the way to the game, Davie Hay was on Radio Clyde saying that we definitely would win the league that day. How the pundits laughed!
On the way home there were still stragglers from Ibrox joining the motorway. How we laughed!
Happy days…….and Danny McGrain is still the finest Scottish footballer of all time. Only Dalglish comes close.
-
I have to admit to being disappointed to see Davie Hay being selected as a target for criticism. His management record, considering the restraints he was operating under, are of the 'glass half full/ half empty' variety.I will leave that argument alone, & had decided to bite my tongue & not respond to the article.
However, I think that would be disloyal to one of Celtic's true heroes.In well over half a century of watching the Hoops, Hay was without any doubt the toughest player I have ever seen. Although never a dirty player, DH struck fear into the hearts of every supposed 'hard man' of his era. If any opposition player was 'putting it about', you just KNEW that the quiet assasin would become the avenging angel, all in his own good time.A believer in the old adage that revenge is a dish best served cold, Davie very rarely even fell foul of the referee when the inevitable retribution was meted out.Despite this, Davie Hay NEVER acted the hard man, & indeed had a quiet & modest demeanor. I think Celtic owe him a great debt of gratitude.
-
The one trait that runs through all things Davy Hay is loyalty or the lack of it. whether as a player or manager, Davy always had an eye for a bigger club or position orteam to manage.He had really just peaked at Celtic in 1974 when he went to Chelsea, we never really got the best of him as a player. As assistant to Ally McLeod at Motherwell the players were in open revolt till Ally was sacked and he took over as manager. he walked out on Motherwell because he thought that he was getting a bigger position in America.
The man may well have stayed on as manager of Celtic,thus showing some loyalty for the first time in his life, but he was sacked. And who among us is to say that that sacking was not deserved. No other Celtic manager in my fifty odd years following the TIC, has ever been 8 points ahead at Christmas and still managed to loose the league.
We all loved St Mirren the year previous, but at that time the fight was with Hearts, when it was coming from Ibrox,we found him lacking the guile and more importantly the BOTTLE.
He may have been responsible for the finding of THE THREE AMIGOS, but even then he was associated with an entertaining but ultimately failing team.
I must admit that as a supporter of long standing Davy Hay, at whatever club he may have been as player or manager, leaves a lot to be desired as a person of integrety
Martin42.
-
Pujol - 1.55pm
Don't get to too many games these days, but I made it to all the title run-in matches in '86, including Love Street. Don't recall the pouring rain though! Surely all the transistor radios would have been trashed as the whole of the Celtic end stopped watching at 5-0 up and listened in to the score at Dens.
Hay was good while he lasted. Got sacked not for the years from 83-86, but for throwing away a 9-10 point lead to TFOD over Christmas 86-87, which is when the rot set in.
-
Love St 1986 - the day Celtic nearly killed me, or the day Celtic saved my life. You decide.
Having given up all hope of a result (I know, I'm still ashamed) I went to London with friends and ended up watching Liverpool win the league on Saturday at Stamford Bridge. Due to a ticket mix-up, I ended up in the Shed rather than at the Liverpool end. The Shed was a nutter's paradise in those days, the first thing I heard when I came in was 5,000 skinheads chanting "We hate Archibald, he's a Scottish Jew, he's a Scottish Jew..." - and of course he wasn't even playing! So I spent the whole game keeping very quiet, even when King Kenny stuck in the winner. How I envied the ecstatic Liverpool fans at the far end, as I tried to blend in with my surroundings - which was difficult without either Doc Martens or a shiny-new no.1.
At last, the game finished. I was shuffling out of the ground and concentrating on keeping my jaw as slack as possible when I heard "Blahdy Jocks - Celtic have wahn it - I 'ad £5 on the other lot".
I completely lost it. Until about 10 seconds later, that is, when I realised that I was leaping around like a madman singing "Champee-ones, champee-ones" at the top of my voice - with around 500 very bad-tempered Chelsea fans staring at me from close range. The feeling in the pit of my stomach when I realised they thought I was a Liverpool fan is hard to describe. Then came the realisation that my only other excuse - being a Jock - wasn't going to help either.
I have no idea how I got away with it - the only other time I had been in the Shed, I saw some guys get the kicking of their lives, for nothing much really. I really thought my turn had come. It would only have taken one to give me a shove, and they'd all have joined in. But before I could even begin pleading for mercy.... they all turned away and walked on.
What saved my unworthy ass? I have no idea. Maybe I had unwittingly out-nuttered the nutters, a bit like the Viking berserkers. But I prefer to think the grace of Celtic was on all of us that day.
-
Thanks Martin42 for the correction - Hay lost an 8 point lead - and we lost the plot at Smallpox on New Year's Day when they won 2-0.
-
Big Joe, said
Hi Paul, and fellow Tims.
Hope every one is having a good day, I am, but enough about Hay.
How about this, to stretch you’re imagination.
Not for the first time this season BJH hit the woodwork, maybe its just me, but he seems to do that a lot. CELTIC do it a lot.
This is my point.
Increase the size of the goals by a ball width on each post, and, wait for it, a ball width on the bar.
The gaol size in football has remained unchanged for 80 odd years.
Ever1 is looking for ways to making the game more entertaining, well this would work for me, what about you lot.???????????
Hail Hail.
-
It's strange the goal size hasn't changed when the average height of men has.
I've also often wondered why some hockey teams don't use massive 500 pound guys to just block out those smaller hockey nets???
HarshRealm
-
Thought DH was a GREAT player for Celtic. One o the best in my 50 years of watching. As manager, he gave us Love Street (in the rain? I think it had stopped by the time Kidd scored; it might as well have for all that mattered to us) and that can't ever be forgot. Right up there for feeling with Billy McNeil's winner against Dunfermline in the Cup, John Hartson's goal at Anfield and Seville. An all time high. For the rest, DH is instantly forgettable as a celtic manager.
|
