 Saturday, April 09, 2005
European football and Payroll levels
Of the eight teams left in the Uefa Cup, Newcastle, Sporting Lisbon, AZ Alkmaar, Villarreal, Austria Vienna, Parma, CSKA Moscow and Auxerre, Celtic have a greater payroll than all apart from Newcastle.
In fact, Celtic have a greater payroll than Sporting, Austria Vienna, AZ Alkmaar and CSKA Moscow combined.
Where do you start?
37 Comments:
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You could start by only signing relatively unknown and as yet unproven players from the minor European leagues, or by weighting the financial packages on offer more towards bonuses linked to on-field success.
Also on a European note I see that Porto are playing away to Boavista tonight. A Boavista win would do Celtic's Pot 2 chances a real favour. However, whether any of the 22 players on the pitch will remain on their feet long enough to actually fashion a goal remains to be seen!
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I think it could be argued that celtic are forced to pay over the odds to attract decent, but not great players (with a few exceptions) to scotland. The likes of Sporting, Auxerre, AZ Alkmaar, Villareal etc have decent players available to sign from their own country, whereas the calibre of footballer available in scotland is far lower.
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Given that we qualified for the Champions League, and the vast majority of those teams did not, says it all.
We are probably better than all of those teams.
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A great day already for Celtic's (ranked 22nd) CL pot 2 hopes for next season.
Bayer Leverkusen (ranked 21st) lost at home to our old friends Borussia Dortmund and coupled with Stuttgart's impressive 3-0 victory over Schalke, are now 11 points off CL qualification in Germany.
Liverpool (ranked 6th) lost at Manchester City and could be 4 points behind their Mersey rivals Everton by tomorrow...here's hoping Moyes boys can take care of Crystal Palace at home.
In Portugal, Porto (ranked 11th)are away to Boavista, and a home win there would boost our chances.
In Greece, Panathinaikos (ranked 17th) are in a 3-way race for the Greek title (only 2 CL places available) and are at home to Olympiakos this weekend. If Olympiakos & AEK Athens were to finish above Panathinaikos we could be another place better off in the standings.
It looks certain that you can already rule out CL qualification for Newcastle (15th), Roma (16th), Lazio (j18th), Parma (j18th).
In addition to the above, Inter Milan (7th), Valencia (2nd), and Deportivo La Coruna (8th) are far from guaranteed CL qualification for next season.
A win in our CL qualifier would give us the best ever chance to progress into the knockout stages for the first time...
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A great day already for Celtic's (ranked 22nd) CL pot 2 hopes for next season.
Bayer Leverkusen (ranked 21st) lost at home to our old friends Borussia Dortmund and coupled with Stuttgart's impressive 3-0 victory over Schalke, are now 11 points off CL qualification in Germany.
Liverpool (ranked 6th) lost at Manchester City and could be 4 points behind their Mersey rivals Everton by tomorrow...here's hoping Moyes boys can take care of Crystal Palace at home.
In Portugal, Porto (ranked 11th)are away to Boavista, and a home win there would boost our chances.
In Greece, Panathinaikos (ranked 17th) are in a 3-way race for the Greek title (only 2 CL places available) and are at home to Olympiakos this weekend. If Olympiakos & AEK Athens were to finish above Panathinaikos we could be another place better off in the standings.
It looks certain that you can already rule out CL qualification for Newcastle (15th), Roma (16th), Lazio (j18th), Parma (j18th).
In addition to the above, Inter Milan (7th), Valencia (2nd), and Deportivo La Coruna (8th) are far from guaranteed CL qualification for next season.
A win in our CL qualifier would give us the best ever chance to progress into the knockout stages for the first time...
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It's back to the old adage that money can't buy success.
I think we can start in the direction that the club could well be heading. A solid youth system with many promising players. Oh and maybe a left back would help us out while we're at it!
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With a pointer to history, Celtic have enjoyed their greatest success when they used homegrown players. The same can also be said of Rangers, Aberdeen, Dundee Utd in a European context.
In the current climate of today we should be maximising on our reputation and drawing on the best players available from lower paying leagues, e.g. Scandinavian, portugese, holland, to supplement a core of homegrown players.
One of the problems is the expectations of the support, the board are between a rock and a hard place when it comes to signing players - if no big names are signed then the board are singled out as having no ambition, and if they do sign big names then ticket prices, etc will all rise to pay for this which in turn annoys the paying fan.
Quite frankly I believe the signings of Camara and Juninho where panic buys(loans) to try and appease the fans, very bad business as has been shown.
The board & fans that boo the board for not spending money are all cupable for the current financial situation and the board specifically for showing a complete lack of foresight concerning the maximising of business opportunities and mimimising of costs since Fergus rode out of town.
Great website, big difference from other sites that only seem to have regurgitated press rumours on them, keep up the good work.
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Its time to look to our youth system i think, the likes of Roco Quin, Finnboggonson, Mcglinchey ect look the part. Also i have heard we have a young Samaliun kid running riot in our U15s. Id rather see these boys who most of them are Celtic fans get a chance instead of some third rate EPL player brought in on wages, Aka (Henri Cammera).
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Thank god (pardon the pun) we escaped that last thread...
For me the main differences are:
Most of these teams play week in week out in a more competitive league. To see what difference this makes cast your mind back to our hardest game in the Uefa cup run (except Porto of course) ie Liverpool and the effect it being sandwiched between Old firm games had...
These teams play in more skilful and technical leagues where playing the "European" passing game is the norm...(not the win at all costs strategy some fans advocate on here)
We pay far too much to players such as Lennon as we buy from an overpriced market...Is he our highest paid player at the moment or is it Hartson/Sutton??? (ignoring Bellamy)
I also agree with Zico2004 re; the recruitment pool;
The portugese teams have the benefit of the Brazilian recruitment pool... a pool Scottish clubs should not swim in....
The Dutch,Russian and French teams benefit from a well developed national coaching system...
However, considering all that if we had speculated a little in the summer we would have escaped the "Group of death" and be competing with all these teams in the Uefa cup...
Cheers
PS If anyones looking for a ticket for tomorrow give me a shout either on here or at rumoid@hotmail.com
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test
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BlogThis!TheBigIssue
Saturday, April 09, 2005
APR 24th Ibrox stadium
If Chris Sutton is fit (can walk!) for the semi-final bash tomorrow,do you think he should play at the risk of aggravating his hamstring again.Personally i would like to see him wrapped in cotton wool till 'the league decider' as i think this is whats important.If we have to sacrifice a scottish cup final for a fit Chris sutton at ibrox i think its a penalty well worth conceding.
p.s.It is hearts we are playing tomorrow not juve! ;-)
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Glasgow East, 7.42pm...I can't grasp the point you're making with your PS.
What's with the defeatist attitude? We've beaten Juventus TWICE, and Hearts several times in recent years. Forget last week, we'll destroy the Edinburgh huns tomorrow. Wisen up, you're supposed to be a Celtic man.
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Greetings, Paul67 et al,
Ah Pablo, my fine lad, as usual you have presented us with
another thought provoking and soul searching poser.
A conundrum that befits the Intuitive and Sophic Powers of the one and only....... Alis le Fey.
"But,Boss....We don't go to Atlantic City 'til the 16th."
Vito pointed out.
"Hush, my dear Vito. Hand me your Cell,please."
"Gosh, Fargo, why didn't I think of that?" vito said regretfully.
Giving, Vito an old-fashioned look, Fargo became occupied in the act of dialing the number.
" Hello, Madame le Fey? Good, this is your old friend, Fargo, the Exegetical.Uhu! I loved Alexander as well. Guess you are right,but say Alis, my dear, I have a little lite chore for you today. Shouldn't take more than five minutes of your valuable time.
Go on the INTERNET and go to www.celticquicknews.com
Go it, Good. Have a quick shufti, and be so kind as to give me a quick reading." Fargo instructed.
"My, my, Fargo. The question posed is indeed a veritable rebus. A gem in the heady realm of the Riddle of the Sphinx. Mmmmm. Mmmmmmmm, however a quick and somewhat piquant answer would be.,,,,,,,,, I haven't the foggiest~! The answer to the question is as elusive as how many nickels has Bill Gates??
Ergo! The answer is ........ There is no answer!!
Speculation, surmisal, postulation,
but no definitive answer, I am afraid, old bean.
Your guess is as good as mine.
However, before we part. A bit of advice to Celtic.
In the undying words of the immortal Big Guy.........."Youf is the light and the Way!!"
"Thanks, Alis, now you can get back to your Beach front Enterprise,see ya on the 16th."
"And there you have it, gentlemen." announced Fargo, after he has relayed Alis' answer to the company.
"Now about the Riddle of The Sphinx,Boss. I think that I know the answer. It's a............"
"That'll be enough, Vito...... Say good-night Vito!"
"Good Night Vito"
Fargo
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I'd like to see more kids get a go. I thought Beattie did really well in the tour of North America + the few times we have seen him he has always looked really good, he scored a great goal against Motherwell. We pay to many players far too much cash. Thompson has no kicked a ball all season yet takes home a packet.We will struugle to keep top class players with the lure of Premiership gold always calling, but I think we should look to the example of the French clubs they keep producing quality players.That is were we are at a disadvantage we have only started producing good players again & we compund the fact by never giving many kids a chance.Of course there are exceptions to ever rule & we lost Miller & Kennedy who would have proved me wrong & both be 1st team regulars.
lastly great site
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I'd like to see more kids get a go. I thought Beattie did really well in the tour of North America + the few times we have seen him he has always looked really good, he scored a great goal against Motherwell. We pay to many players far too much cash. Thompson has no kicked a ball all season yet takes home a packet.We will struugle to keep top class players with the lure of Premiership gold always calling, but I think we should look to the example of the French clubs they keep producing quality players.That is were we are at a disadvantage we have only started producing good players again & we compund the fact by never giving many kids a chance.Of course there are exceptions to ever rule & we lost Miller & Kennedy who would have proved me wrong & both be 1st team regulars.
lastly great site
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I'd like to see more kids get a go. I thought Beattie did really well in the tour of North America + the few times we have seen him he has always looked really good, he scored a great goal against Motherwell. We pay to many players far too much cash. Thompson has no kicked a ball all season yet takes home a packet.We will struugle to keep top class players with the lure of Premiership gold always calling, but I think we should look to the example of the French clubs they keep producing quality players.That is were we are at a disadvantage we have only started producing good players again & we compund the fact by never giving many kids a chance.Of course there are exceptions to ever rule & we lost Miller & Kennedy who would have proved me wrong & both be 1st team regulars.
lastly great site
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I'd like to see more kids get a go. I thought Beattie did really well in the tour of North America + the few times we have seen him he has always looked really good, he scored a great goal against Motherwell. We pay to many players far too much cash. Thompson has no kicked a ball all season yet takes home a packet.We will struugle to keep top class players with the lure of Premiership gold always calling, but I think we should look to the example of the French clubs they keep producing quality players.That is were we are at a disadvantage we have only started producing good players again & we compund the fact by never giving many kids a chance.Of course there are exceptions to ever rule & we lost Miller & Kennedy who would have proved me wrong & both be 1st team regulars.
lastly great site
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Hartson
Lambert
Douglas
Hedman
Valgaeren
Sylla
Fernandez
Juninho
I say we start with them.Replace these guys with new signings and give the talented group of youngsters we have a chance to make the breakthrough if they are good enough.Provided MON stays away from the Premiership for his new signings we could see a reduced wage bill and the nucleus of a team with a reduced average age that could stay together for five to ten years.
BankieBhoy
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Peterm1711 11:43pm
Peter m8!The p.s. was my attempt at sarcasm sorry!I was implying we don't need big chris to beat hearts hibs moth dundee etc teams of this calibre.Its not like were playing juve and have to be at full strength, we are more than capable of beating the hearts of this world with the squad of highly paid players we have.hope ive cleared that up for you.As for the defeatist attitude i hope the above explains.You cant have a defeatist attitude AND be a celtic fan can you?As far as 'forget last week' can only reply with 'when was that':-).On your last words'wisen up you're supposed to be a celtic man'!! I thought i was addressing an important issue that could affect the final league position of the bhoys.Was just trying to raise some debate!! :-)
yours exasperated
p.s.Do you think big chris should play tomorrow peter?
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Glasgow East, 11.43pm...Point taken, I thought you were MAYBE being sarcastic, just unsure, that's all. Several cans consumed from the Miller Brewing Company from Milwaukee, USA, must have fuddled my little brain. Good on you then.
Big Chris? I'm getting concerned about his ability to stay fit now. Don't get me wrong, he's been a cracking player for us, but I honestly think his Celtic career is almost at an end.
We can, and will, beat Hearts today, with or without him. Personally, I think he'll be on the bench.
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Glasgow East, 2.41am, apologies, I got your time wrong. It's the bev again!
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Re Seeding. Yes it is now looking very likely (even letting Liverpool finish 4th) we'll scrape second seeds.
The villareal loss really was great news ;) Very tough for them to get through to semi's.
Looking at the CL qualifiers. There are still some hard ties. I really hope the draw favours us next season. If Alkmaar win another couple of games in Uefa they might scrape into the seeds for CL qualifiers.
In any case. Udinese/Bologna, Everton (assuming they get 4th), Shakhtar, Macaba Haifa, wisla or partizan belgrade, brondby are not that easy!
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Valgaeren is playing today. And no, this isn't a belated april fools prank. i just saw the teams on Sky Sports News
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Poor advert for Scottish soccer today. Can anyone take a decent direct free kick and get a shot on goal?
Hope Hartely is not on Mon's list for the summer window. Now, that wee Lithuanian who scored thir goal looked sharp. What were we saying about players from non elite Euro leagues?
Fargo, good to see you back.
The Atlantic City at this time of year can be a bit dreech. Take your bunnet and wellies.
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regarding pot 2 a couple of things to be taken into consideration if you look at http://www.xs4all.nl/~kassiesa/bert/uefa/data/method3/trank2005.html based on this it is still possible although unlikely for Villareal (due to defeat against Dutch side) and Sporting Lisbon ( 2 far behind)to overtake us, Feyenoord could also overtake us as 2 Dutch sides are still in Europe raising their ranking points and they are just behind us
Paul
Beijing
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For the Pot 2 theory, after all of this weekend's games are played (I'm too distracted by the Real v Barca scoreline at the minute) I'll update this file again:
http://www.stevie21.f2s.com/coefficient.zip
Or click here
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Boysfromthenorth, thanks for your comment.
I have real regrets that we lost Miller. He was the best to come from the youth system in 20 years. On the positive side, at least the coaches have someone to judge the emerging talent with. They will know where Miller was at each stage. They will know if each player is more Miller than Burchill.
Bankiebhoy, your plan should be under consideration.
Fargo, good to hear from you after your crew have been posting in your absence for so long. I’ll give you one thing, you have been consistent in banging on about youth, however, are they ready to play Champions League football next season?
I suspect Martin would say “no”. I have been watching Celtic kids breaking into the team since the late 1970’s, so you will forgive my reluctance in too much potential.
As the consensus is saying, Pot 2 is looking good. I would even be happy to see Liverpool clinch 4th place, as Everton will make still opponents in the qualifier – especially if we are playing “youf”.
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Canajunbhoy:
I agree with you about the Lithuanian lad, he looks a decent talent.
I also like the young Irish boy who got sent off for body slamming Andy Davis, Mick 'o' Lynas I think he's called, he is another very decent looking prospect, very tricky and direct, good engine, and most importantly two footed.
There must be scores of hungry kids like this all over who could surely come here and do us a turn for a reasonable wage.
I for one would prefer to see MON going down this road and getting a bit more value for money at the same time lowering the overall age of the team.
This kind of strategy aligned with the development of our own very promising youth is the way to go.
One exeption .....Craig Bellamy.
We must do all in our power to keep this special talent at CP.
He has ALL the attributes to go on and be a hoops legend.
He lights up CP and brings some passion back to both the fans and the team, he is an exceptional player and I hope that just this once we really push the boat out and sign Bellamy.
Players like this dont come along very often and I hope that he stays and experiences Champions League nights at CP, he'll never want to leave then.
What a difference today with Big Chris back, the team definitely suffers when he's out.
Hail, hail from sunny Craigneuk
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I was at the game today, came home and watched the tape. I wonder if they turned down the volume on the mikes around the pitch. The cousins of william roundly booed and sang through the 20 seconds silence, not a minute or not even 30 seconds.
NO comment from the sky team, I wonder if there will be any comment tommorow. Utter disgrace.
However, back to the point in hand. We need to try to augment the current squad with younger players with pace. I think we have a few high earners on the way out. Even Lennon will have to take a pay-cut to stay. We need to use guys like Dr.Jo and Lubo, although I think he's managing someone now, to try to create a scouting system in the eastern European countries. We also go on about the fact that no-one would come to Scotland unless there is a premium on their salary. I think we can use our proximity to the EPL by offering players buy out clauses. If a player comes here and shines the EPL do take notice.
I hope that we will be in CL every year for years to come. This gives all teams the opportunity to see our players against the cream of Europe. They soon took notice of Miler after a couple of good Euro games. It might be hard to take to see players we discover, and are successful for us, leave but if it reduces the wage bill and brings in quality then fine. We could perhaps ensure the clause is only close season so as not to loose best players mid season. I worked for Rangers with BSong, although they were paying a huge salary too. If we can suggest Celtic is a stepping stone on the way to greater riches, and maybe one or two like it here, may not be a bad thing. We have to face reality. Until our league/TV situation is resolved, we will struggle financialy.
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on the thread on bellamy, did anyone see him talking on Sky Sports after the game? Talking about loving the club, players, fans and manager? I'm still not sure whether he'll resist the temptation of The Premiership, but it certainly reassures me as to thinking there is a possibility of seeing him next season.
Unless your Charlie Nicholas, of course.
westim.
ps. That's trophy #1 in the bag as well then
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Greetings, Paul67 et al,
Glad to be released from enforced Purdah.
Just received a missive from the 3 Trainers:
"Who does the Bell Toll for?"
"It Tolls for Thee!"
Rangers eat your heart out~
Bellamy is destined for Paradise.
Will sign Contract at end of Season with Glasgow Celtic!
So it is Written, so it Shall be Done!!!
No my name is not Ripley, believe it!
Fargo
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Yawn,Yawn,Yawn Fargo
Clutching at straws again now that posters are not listening to your posts. Another "told you so" to be brought up in the summer time by you.Get in the queue big man,too many "told you so" posters hoodwinking the decent Celts on here.
It has already been reported in February that Celtic have scouts in Eastern Europe but not picked up in the general conversation,so no exclusive there then.
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A VERY good week for pot 2 chances.
Defeats for Liverpool, Porto, Leverkeusen and Villareal (in the UEFA cup) and draws for Valencia and Deportivo.
The biggest obstacle now by far is the qualifier(s).
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Fargo,
Are these the same three trainers that told you after the Rangers 0-2 game that "Douglas has played his last game for Celtic"? Oh, and didn't they say that a player missing chance after chance (who I assumed to be Hartson) would be "summarily dropped from the team"? And that Henchoz has the three C's (COOL CALM and COLLECTED)?
Doesn't sound like the most reliable source to me.....
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Not the best performance yesterday, but at least we're in the final. Balde & Hartson are the weakest players in our team. Too often Bellamy skinned his man for pace and would look up to try & find Hartson, only to see him jogging into the box eating a Roll n Sausage.
Fargo - did you used to do the clues on Ted Rogers Dusty Bin?
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Frankly, I was appalled at Hartson's workrate... I vividly remember a pass out to Bellamy on the right hand-side...Both he and
Hartson were in line at this point. Bellamy hared down the wing to the touch-line, looked up and fatty Hartson hadn't reached the area yet. It was simply unbelievable. Can MON see in his fitness we can't? Celtic employ a nutritionist and fitness trainers... If a player is unwilling to follow their advice he should be fined...
M
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Re Seeding Pot 2 and Feyenoord.
Maybe I'm wrong here, but I thought this was how it was calculated:
Feynoord this season have 9 points + 33% of 10.666 current country total (3.52) = 12.52.
We are 1.77 points ahead of them.
In order for Feyenoord to leap us would require Netherlands to collectively accumulate 97 points.
(97 total / 6 teams) * .33 would get them the extra points this season to leap us for next rankings.
Since Netherlands are currently on 64 points total and there isn't 33 points available, even if AZ and PSV won every match, getting the bonus points aswell...can we not then discount Feyenoord or are my calculations dodgy ;)
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