 Wednesday, April 06, 2005
New Transfer strategy for Celtic following the Juninho, Basturk and Barcelona experience
I have been biting my tongue as best I could while Juninho was still a Celtic player. The final verdict on his Celtic career has surely been on the cards since he was substituted at half time in his third appearance for the club against Barcelona.
Against Rangers on his debut he was clearly the man-of-the-match. He made himself available and created space in forward positions. The talent was there, he just failed to apply it since that day.
You will not need me to tell you what a shambles our close-season signing planning was. The best of intentions saw three players from Barcelona and Yildiray Basturk from Bayer Leverkusen on the menu. The wage money was there, Basturk was a free agent and a deal had been struck with Barcelona; problem was the players did not want to play in the SPL.
What a different season it might have been.
As August wore on Martin O’Neill received his ‘Dear John’ replies one at a time. With one week of the transfer window left we only had Henri Camara signed, and even the boss knew the risks in that one. That we failed to get Dwight Yorke and Marcel Desailly was surely the only blessing that month.
Lessons were learned in January. The man we wanted to sign wanted to come, and his team wanted to do business.
Scouting is underway for the new season and I know that a new strategy has been agreed within Celtic Park. Chastened by his experiences last summer, Martin O’Neill has decided that scouts will look for prospects who have yet to attract the attention of the top clubs from the top leagues.
This will mean scouting in more prosaic locations than the Nou Camp, and no more Champions League Final stars, such as Basturk, though do not write-off Germany all together.
Headcount will be up, average age will be down, average wages will be down and average transfer fees will significantly less than the £5million which will be offered to Newcastle for Craig Bellamy.
The accepted gamble this year is that we will sign players with more potential in front of them than actual behind them.
76 Comments:
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I reckon this would be a good policy, as we do have alot of players on the bad side of 30. Also I believe it is easier for us to attractive scandanavians and eastern europeans rather than spanish flair players etc, they are more used to the weather and our way of life. Would like to see a few additions maybe the big signings around the age of 26/27, i.e "petrovs age", with the addition of young startlets
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Paul67 I hope you are correct as this has seemed like best strategy for a few seasons now. Petrov being a prime example of how this could work.
Any idea how what the wage bill for Lyon & PSV is relative to ours ?
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Well that would be a step in the right direction Paul, but why are you so confident this will be the strategy - or that it will actually come to fruition? It certainly doesn't mirror the way MON has done business in the past, just because he has been chastened doesn't mean he will change his spots - I think he needs to, hopefully he realises this.
I would prefer a bit of speculation as you describe, and maybe one or two more established guys like Bellamy and Sutton in his day.
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We have had the false dawns before.
I don't believe that there will be any significant transfer activity over the summer.
2 Reasons for this firstly the clubs strategy is to become debt free and we still have 17/18 million debt and secondly O'Neil's track record has been abysmal in getting value for money.
Who is being held accountable for the Camera and Juninho debacle? The money wasted on them should have ensured European Football after christmas. When you add Sylla, Hedman, Fernadez and others, it begs the question, would you trust Martin O'Neil to spend £20 million of your money.
Going back to my first reason that we won't invest big in the summer (17/18 million debt), this is directly attribtable to mis-management during the Dalglish/Barnes era in recent years Mon has been guilty of similar mistakes.
Lets get real there will be no summer spending spree. We need rely on the young players coming through for our success, and as a consequence we must accept that,in terms of achievement we will go back before moving forward.
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Paul, any chance of naming the 3 Barca players deals were agreed for?
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I think MON was hoping Camara would feed of Juninho's passes and had the best of intentions to play the two of them. Had someone like Larsson still be there I firmly believe that Juninho would be staying. Paul i think you are forgetting that there were a large number of players in between the barca attempt and Camara. May i point out that if it wasn't for Monaco loosing Morientes and coming in with a last ditch attempt - Saviola would be at CP; so that was a bit unlucky. Nevertheless, i get your point, we need to try and punch at our own weight. We do not have the wages or a good enough league to get these players. We do have a name though, that someone like Shay Given would be interested in......
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Paul
1)You said “Lessons were learned in January. The man we wanted to sign wanted to come, and his team wanted to do business.” What do you refer to here?
2) You said “scouts will look for prospects who have yet to attract the attention of the top clubs from the top leagues.” Surely to God we should have been doing this for years!
3) Does this change of strategy mean MON will sign players early in the transfer window?
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Frankiebhoy, Financially Lyon have moved out of sight for the likes of us. The French TV deal is now the biggest in Europe, and Lyon are the top earners. PSV are, however, well below us.
Jimbho, Confidence comes from proper research – this is the plan, take my word for it.
Lincoln Green, Sorry to disagree, but….
The clubs strategy is not to become debt free. I listen very carefully to all comments
in this area, when pushed on this subject Brian Quinn has repeatedly said the same line, which goes something alone the lines of ‘I would like the debt lower than it is’.
If the strategy was to become debt free why would they have run at a loss for the last six years? I know this ‘evidence’ flies in the face of common perception, however, facts should speak louder than perceptions.
Anon, Saviola (obviously), I cannot remember the names of the other two – getting old you see, I couldn’t ever remember Marc Reipers name yesterday.
Celticbhoy, I refer to Craig Bellamy. From the best of what I can gather, we went looking for players who were proven articles at the top level last summer, this failed and the strategy disintegrated.
I wish I was sure that deals would be done earlier, but suspect that activity will take place in August as usual.
Can I also send cyber congratulations to Kevin & Angela, who are going to add to the ’67 family in October. Great news.
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I think if we identify a player we want then we have to go for him asap otherwise obviously someone else may sign him. Though I know MoN dislikes paying out wages during the close season. But get the players in early so the team can gel and be at maximum strength for the CL qualifiers.
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Paul,It's not correct to say that Basturk didn't want to play in the SPL.It was a case of he wanted to play in Berlin where he will have a huge Turkish fan base.Put it another way,If Paul Hartley of Hearts was asked to join a team in Germany of the same size or play for Celtic where would he choose? Only one answer.
But I get where you are coming from,The SPL is just not a sexy league for the CL stars.I think myself if we can get 2 really good European players of CL class to sign then I think the rest will follow.
As for Scouts,Celtic have always have scouts looking for them,but only at the certain priced players they have been ask to look out for.
But it might change in a few years if you are still confident we will make the EPL?
Cabbage McFlabbergaster
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Paul, let's hope your thoughts become facts in the summer. What's most disappointing is that we have failed (again) to sign any Bosman's for next season and will be in open competition with everyone else in the summer.
On the previous post, I wish now I'd never mentioned Negative Anon. Maybe he would have kept his latest opinions to himself. At times he's entertaining, often giving us a balanced view, but the latest postings are bizarre.
On point 2, Fergus didn't make a huge profit from the investment the fans made. He made a profit from the investment HE made - that's a fact! He's a businessman and never, at any time, suggested he was in it for anything other than 5 years - fact! We could all have decided to sell our shares when they peaked at £550 each and made a killing - fact! That we chose note to is our own decision.
On the loss of £1m on Juninho in a paper today - why haven't they reported the £10m Murray has lost since investing his company's money in TFOD shares? They've dropped by 20% since the share issue!
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Paul67,
I don't know the source of your information butI suspect you are being deliberately conned. I think the Board are seriously worried about non-renewal of season tickets and are deliberately "spinning" information that we are on the bring of a spending spree.
Brian Quinn is a clever man and he will always, quite rightly, play down the suggestion that we will invest in new players.
To keep supporters sweet he will, through leaks and unconfirmed sources suggest that "things" are about to happen.
We wait, buy season tickets, wait and then at the end of the transfer window hear tales of what might have been (3 Barcelona Players etc.). We then start the season with the same old faces + perhaps some unwanted bosmans but with 50,000 + season tickets sold.
Once again wake up and smell the coffee, it aint gonna happen.
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Paul,
I think that the reason that Celtic struggled with signings last season and our subsequent indifferent form this season is that Martin O'Neill took his eye off the ball last summer.
Whether it be due to family matters or whether he was considering his future, should bear no relevance on a club the size of Celtic.
Whilst I appreciate that the club must learn from disasters such as Scheidt, there should be a certain amount of delegation to the coaching staff and/or scouts.
As the scouting is an ongoing issue, then surely Martin O'Neill should have specified a list of targets for the summer and then have a first, second and possibly even third choice for each role.
To add to last summer's problems was the fact that more than half of the First Team were the wrong side of 30.
Where last summer was important, this summer is absolutely vital for the club, both on and off the field.
These same players who were the wrong side of 30 then are still there and in general their performances this season have fallen far short of what they previously gave.
It's time these high earning players were moved on, and replaced by cheaper, younger players who have still to peak.
Off the field, many fans are annoyed at the aloofness of the board, who they believe are trying to hoodwink the fans by asking for their cash long before they commit to any spending. While Saturday's debacle in booing Brian Quinn was financially unjustified, the fact that a growing number of fans are becoming frustrated at the clubs atrocious public relations should ring some bells.
Back to playing matters, Martin O'Neill should set his stall out early to pick up the cream of the WORLD'S top talented players. Especially for potential Bosman targets. I believe Paul that you think that we should leave it quite late to sign players before the transfer window due to financial reasons, but I believe that if you get in there early then you will have a better chance of getting the best.
If Martin has another summer like last year then maybe he should step aside or at least cascade his responsibilities.
Ted Moult
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Lincoln Green, for a start, I am not being conned by anyone on the board.
What’s more, your claims again conflict with what is happening in reality, Brian Quinn is not trying to whip things up, if anything he is trying to do the exact opposite. The ‘hard-up’ story is being peddled at CP these days.
Do you really think he wants someone like me out there saying that there is lots of money available to spend right now?
“Wake up”? I refer you to my previous answer, Celtic have run at a loss for six consecutive years, anyone who tells you that they will make a huge profit next year should be asked to justify on what evidence this is based on.
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The Barca players in question were Riquelme, Gabri and Saviola
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The Barca players in question were Riquelme, Gabri and Saviola
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I have read a lot of your articles since CelticQuickNews started up.
You seem to contradict yourself by stating previously that you believed we would have substantial amounts of money to spend in the summer. You now appear to be back tracking.
Given the amount of 'pie in the sky' articles in the past combined with articles that could be perceived as 'pro PLC' spin I wouldn't be surprised in the slightest that someone from within Celtic PLC is pulling the strings on this website for pro-PLC propaganda!
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How does this represent a change in policy, consider who MON has signed players from, LIVINGSTON, HIBERNIAN, MOTHERWELL, DUNDEE,ASTON VILLA, COVENTRY,LEICESTER, SUNDERLAND,CHELSEA RESERVES, ST JOHNSTONE,MIDDLESBORO RESERVES, FC RODA, TOLOUSE,WOLVES
hardly the top end of the market, the only change in policy this might have is a reduction in wages and transfer fees paid cause every player will be someone very few of us have heard of,
I reality this sounds like a very similar down sizing recruitment policy which is already under way over on the south side.
Personally, i've swallowed just about enough bullshit surrounding transfers over the last 3 years that i' am of the opinion that i'll believe it when i see it.
I am also of the opinion that if Celtic's signings are not of notable worth they will cease to get the £500 season ticket money they have enjoyed off me for the best part of 10 years, this is due to a number of ongoing issues appart from our less than insiring signing policy .things such as the following i feel are cheapining the vaule of my/our season tickets.;
we are now in the last climatic month of the season and i can't make plans to travel to Glasgow to use my ticket cause we don't know who we are playing, how am i supposed to plan time off, make travel and accommodation arrangements when i don't know who when or where we may be playing,
Also with the ever deteroring quality on offer in the SPL the only games of any real note are the games against the rotten mob, which my enjoyment off as total been curtailed by 12.30 sunday KO's.
All in All, this summers signing better be good, and on time, by that i mean not havng to wait to ensure CL qualification before we buy,
GUUS HIDDINK CSC
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What has happened to Dr Jo scouting for Celtic in eastern Europe? Surely, the likes of Slovakia, Czech Rep., Bulgaria, Romania and Poland have the type of talent capable of doing us a turn.
These players would not seek a hefty paypacket and would be keen on a move to the SPL - possible stepping stone to England...but once they are here would realise what Celtic is all about.
The likes of Petrov, Varga and Lubo could be used to entice players from these countries.
PS
There is no way any of the Barca players would have considered playing in Scotland even if it was Celtic!
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Anonymous 12.56 pm, "someone from within Celtic PLC is pulling the strings on this website" - what are you talkin' about mate? - what strings? This is just a typical pro Celtic website with loads of Celtic fans exchanging opinions / views. Paul 67 happens to Manage the site for us, and does an excellent job thanks very much. We do get the occasional nutter coming on with ridiculous negative suggestions, consider yourself bracketed with the latter.
Kevin, Blantyre.
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Paul,
nice to get back to talking about the football side of things, and hopefully whats going to happen.
I really do hope the club are looking and the news that we're looking at the French Keeper was a little welcome boost on my way to work. The club does have big appeal to many players but playing SPL will never attract the very best, but the doesn't mean we will never be successfull, look at Porto.
This is the kind of forward planning and strategy that will bring supporters more inline with the way the board wish.
The board will suffer hugely if they don't spend or at least bring in new faces in the summer, maybe this was their plan all along, maybe the booing got them thinking.
I hope your right, and I'm delighted to at least hear that we are scouting for players and moves and being put in place.
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We should start planning for the future and really splash the cash on stupid wagers billy dodds could do a job for us. Add hutchinson, sherringham, marshall from motherwell and les ferdinand and we will still a/ compete for the spl and b/ get kicked out of the cpl in the first section. No change there then.
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A number of us have been calling for such a widening of talent searching for some time now. If the club are going after skillful talent in the Euro minnow leagues then I am in favour. I would like to see them mix it with some proven talent also.
Getting some fresh blood in from non UK areas appeals; we rely too much on the home grown players.
On Juninho, I started off giving him the benefit of the doubt and wanted him so much to be a huge success. For a while I felt he wasnt getting a fair chance. Loking back now I'm not so sure. Talent of his pedigree should have built on his first game success aginst you know who and "made a difference", just like Bellers is doing.
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Anon 12:56 - and I'll bet you were booing your stupid little head off on sat.
Its not rocket science and I honestly dont know how Paul67 has the patience for some of the nonsense that gets posted.
The facts are simple, and very very easy to understand. Try please.
1. Celtic FC is debt (lots of it), and we run up more debt every year no matter how many season tickets and strips we sell.
2. The board are obviously therefore always looking for ways to generate more income - to stop us getting into even more debt - and the give money to MON.
3. However the debt hasnt stopped MON getting the biggest transter and wages budget of any Celtic manager ever, by some incredible distance.
4. What Paul67 has been trying to document on this site, through his knowledge of accounting, are ways in which we can free up some cash , to loan some money to invest in the team.
End of story. There is no pro PLC spin, why should there be? But as far as I am concerned this PLC board have delivered the most on-field success I personally have EVER SEEN at Celtic park.
Why would I complain about that? Why do YOU complain about that?
I have no opinion on whether the board is PLC or whatever, but the facts are, the old pre-Fergus style board delivered FK all, and nearly destroyed us, the current board (post Barnes) have delivered the most successful period in my lifetime. Simple.
Unless someone can find a legless multimillioniare or a russian oil baron looking to launder a few billion on new players for Celtic FC then I suggest we enjoy the fact that we are champions and will remain so.
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PAUL ,
Do Kevin and Angela live down under by any chance???
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I put the following on another discussion forum about summer signings.....thought it might generate some response here....delioghted to note from Paul that "scouting is underway"...would have thought that should have been an ongoing commitment at Celtic park....
I have said on other thredas that we have to start "trading"..(with apologies for the Jock Brownism!!)....
Would punt either Hartson or Sutton.....preferably HARTSON....
would noty be upset if Lennon left....nor Thompson......in my humble opinion, their best days are not in front of them....
Would allow Varga to exit..same reason....
Would take anything for Douglas/Hedman/Fernandez/Sylla/Valgaren..
that's 9 players out....add Juninho and lambert to that and that's 11 off the wage bill...possibly £220,000per week to play with in wages......I realise this might be a bit radical for some...
Would try to keep Bellamy(if not Keane or Morrison)....paired with Sutton(alternate Beattie as cover)....would like to see Riordan signed....Maloney as back up
Midfield I have kept Stan/Aiden/Jackie MAC/ Didi Agathe...need at least two in in my drerams it would be Riquelme....in reality Hartley would be a decent signing....
We need some serious defensive signiongs.....Hammell or Naysmith are decent full backs....Zander Diamond looks the best young centre back in the SPL....THERE MUST BE DOZENS OF SOUND STRONG SAFE DEFENDERS OUT THERE WHO WOULD LOVE TO PLAY FOR US AND EARN WAGES OF £10/15 K PER WEEK.....How many have been listed by our management team.....at least another two needed on top of the two I have suggested....
Goalkeeper...woukld keep Marshall as back up......Green or Niemi would be fine.....Robinson would be my ideal choice if money no real concern....
That's seven or eight signings to replace 11 outgoings.....why can't that be afforded on the budget available.....rough cost of wages for my siggestions would be about £160/180 k per week...thus saving about £3million a year....
team next year
new goalie..
new RB...Diamond..balde...naysmith/hammell
Agathe...Riquelme...petrov...Aiden.....
Bellamy...Sutton
bench includes Jackie, Beattie, Maloney, Riordan, Marshall, new defensive signing, Hartley
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All managers have made mistakes when signing players, even those with the biggest budgets.
Many of the players he signed had potential, Sylla for example has had some blinding games, one notable game as a sub in Europe if my memory isn't failing me.
To be honest if we sign Bellamy this summer then that in itself will help us attract the 'better' players.
I believe that the Cetlic board want to move to the EPL. I also think that there is a possibility that this could happen. To do it we must convice Sky and the top EPL teams that we are an attractive proposition. To do this we must have a team that people in England and abraod want to watch, with names they recognise. This alone is reason enough for me to think that we will have to freshen up the team sheet.
Add to that the fact that our team isn't getting any younger and we need another run in Europe....
As for the debt I thought all big companies needed debt for accounting purposes. It's a handy thing to have so you can hide profit you don't want to pay tax on etc...
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Canajunbhoy makes a good point. It is time Celtic looked a bit further for new blood. Eastern Europe perhaps. However, Celtic appear to be caught betweena rock and a hard place. They are posting continual financial losses, so what do they do? Carrying on as they are isn't clearing the bank account. Nor are we competing with Europe's best (UEFA Cup final aside) , and so long as we are in the SPL, television revenue will not be a major factor. We can therefore get some cheaper, younger players and hope for the best (You'll never win anything with youngsters - Alan Hansen). Or, we can go out and spend a fortune on some quality players in the hope that they can turn things around for us in Europe. There is one problem with following the latter course though. Take a look at the squads of Barcelona, Man Utd, Chelsea, and they are littered with 'quality' players who are left sat on the bench each week. Kleberson, and dare I say it, Liam Miller at Man Utd for example. Celtic simply cannot afford to run their squad like this. It would be wonderful if we could just go out and snap up players as we like. The truth is though, there are financial considerations, and let's be honest Scottish cup replays in the middle of January, away to teams that no one outside of scotland have heard of isn't very appealing. To make it appealing we have to keep improving in Europe. it's a vicous circle whichever way you look at it.
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JIM62
hartley
diamond
naysmith
hammel
you having a laugh, if this is the extent of your ambition for Celtic go and watch Hibs,
GUSS HIDDINK CSC
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Paul, i've always managed to trust everything you say and i do believe what you've mentioned in the article. However is there any chance you could enlighten us as to how you know or who your source. And this time it can't be down to "looking at the books, its all there if you bother to research".
or do you keep your sources private.
Westim (hopefully not coming across as anti-Paul67)
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We cannot get rid of a large number of plays bring in replacements and expect O'Neil to wave a magic wand and hey presto a team appears.
There has to be continuity a lot of the players people mention can be got rid of are decent players and at worste excellent cover.
We need more players not just a blanket replacement of exsiting players.
The policy must be replace an existing player with a better one or one who will get better and use the existing play to bring the new guy up to speed.
A few of the fringe plaers can go but only if we get cover. Many of the players we signed were as cover and that is where they remained. Not every player can be Henrik Larsson.
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Anon 12.56 may be being slightly provocative but he's on the button with the contradictory articles now emerging from this site.
Talk of big spend in the summer has suddenly been replaced with scouting around for cheap european replacements.
Share issues which were 'going to happen' have suddenly disappeared from the equation.
Proceeds from the Coolmore's involvement with Man Utd and Glazer's takeover have failed to materialise.
Let's face it there is a fine line between presenting facts and analysis of information in the public domain and then slipping into speculation over what may or may not be happening at Celtic.
The water becomes muddied when speculation is presented as fact which is what appears to have happened over the large summer spend claims on this site.
There are many accountants and businessmen among Celtic fans and those who've looked at the books as closely as they can have failed to see any of the suggestions put forward on this site as being a reality.
The Celtic Trust who have regular meetings with the board have not picked up on any of the suggestions on here.
Celtic, in order to spend, need to generate cash from operations. They have been doing that over the past few years but only enough to fund a limited transfer budget and/or contract renewal payments for existing players together with work on Celtic Park. To be suggesting large spend in this kind of climate is a non starter.
As for the 'new strategy' a blind man can see that if funds are limited different approaches to acquiring players needs to be thought through and actioned. Many punters think that the manager should have been doing this some considerable time ago.
Like many other articles on here though it is sometimes difficult to distinguish between fact and speculation over this supposed 'new strategy'.
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Paul,
I've gotta agree with Anon 2:32... I like this site a lot as it seems to vear towards educated debate more than most... But in your articles I don't think you make it clear what is speculationbased on fact, hope and rumour... We all as Celtic fans hear our fair share of rumours - some true and some not...
For example, my recollection of last year's transfer news was that the Barcelona signings were pure press speculation based on a 'link-up' announced with Barcelona. My own take was that the Club based all it's eggs in the Basturk basket and that failed spectacularly. MON was then slow to sanction other moves.
M
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Anon, 12.56, I really wish people would read things properly before criticising. What is presented here is well researched news and information on Celtic.
Just the benefit of yourself and the other anon later: The board have said they have no money and I have produced a budget to say there will be plenty of money.
This article has nothing to do with the availability of money and, again, I have never said that Celtic WILL spend big, only that they money would be available for it.
As far as ‘pulling my strings’; if you would rather get your information from the press or radio go ahead.
To the anon 2.32 specifically, if lots of accountants and businessmen have looked at the accounts and failed to notice the amortisation is about to drop significantly you ask them why and come back here and tell us all.
Also, if the same people think that the players out of contract in the summer will not save us money do the same.
For your information, Glazer has not bought Man Utd yet, so why should have Cubic Expression have the money from the sale yet?
Thanks for your support Kevin, Blantyre. Some people would rather Celtic fans did not debate accounts and other things discussed here.
Bobby Ewing, that gave me a big smile, thanks.
Xavier, Kevin & Angela have just moved from Mossend to West Lothian, or the Far East, as I refer to it.
Jim62, cannot argue with most of that. When I have had to make changes in my business I have found that tinkering does not get you anywhere, big results require big actions.
Westim, I now have a few very good sources, though I had none when I started this site. I have only had the odd actual player name quoted and even then I was asked not to repeat it, which I didn’t. Information is good, never second hand, and will dry up if I disclose sources.
Jama, continuity is a problem, also remember what a poor signing Petrov was in his first season, though some of the blame should be left with the management.
Do you speak on behalf of the Celtic Trust? If so, please pick out any specific point that you have been briefed on which contradicts information published here.
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2.32 PM ANON - Wake up and smell the coffee - if its fact your looking for you wont find it here - this is purely opinion and speculation based on limited information - you guys that are looking for a hot line directly into MON's office are a joke.
MacShoogle.
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Paul 67 - i'm glad we're talking about potential signings - back onto the football. I'm not slagging you off or anything as i appreciate the input you make into this site, but i was getting to the stage where one of my mates would tap me a tenner & i would be telling them that i'll pay them back over 10 years at £1 a year just like our transfers. I doubt there's a strategy as such, infact i'm starting to have reservations about O'Neill as boss. This isn't a kneejerk opinion, but i think the way forward is Steve Clark as manager with Mowbray as assistant. Look at the way Liverpool played last night - 2 wide players, 2 quick players up front & midfielders that drive forward.
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Jim 62 I could not agree more with you about the players we should be looking to offload. I have stated along the same lines several times on this board. Im not to sure however that I would agree with your choice of players replacing them apart from requelme he is the calibre we should be aiming at diamond for the future possible, especially with the new rules uefa want to impose .
Jama MON has not got a magic wand but if anyone can galvanise a squad quickly he s da man.
We have to remember that many of the disenchantment and rumblings relate to our failures in the cpl even though some tend to forget who we were up against, and who we had just lost.
We should also take into account what the departing players have brought to the club and in many cases as they are back up, why were they not used as such, ie saturday.
players out
definately
juninho
lambert
strong contenders.
joos
sylla
fernandez
douglas
hedman
henchov
varga
radical but 2 possibles.
hartson
lennon
thompson
sutton.
my own pref would to keep sutton and lennon.
Although continuity has been stated we play in the spl and will always vi for the top spot, as we will next year with out the above.
Given the above and adding 4-5 qaulity players to a squad of
marshall
didier
balde
kennedy
macmanus
laursen - poss
petrov
lennon
pearson
wallace
mcgeady
macnamara
sutton
bellamy
maloney
beattie
will point us in the right direction.
Yes it might take a season too gell, it might not, as can be seen at chelsea. What do we have to lose, another year with an ageing squad supported by bit players, who the manager never hardly uses?.
We shouuld be looking to augment the above with a top qaulity left sided defender naysmith or hammel do not fit that bracket for me, julian arca does.
A top central defender someone who is very mobile and can make a decent pass from the back?.
A top class goalkeeper to be backed up by marshall and the under 21 s goalkeeper.
A top class attacking midfielder.
And a top class striker who is in the mould of sutty but far more mobile. Keeping jackie mac and sutty also allows us to have 2 very experienced players who are versatile and also know what the club is all about.
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JIM62 I'm not the type to weigh in with out explanation, just didn't have the time earlier, but I'd like to add my 2 bobs worth now, In relation to last years last minute panic buys i did some research on who would have been available if we had had our pick of the bunch so to speak, the attached list is an edited list concentrating on players who became available or who left the English Premiership ONLY during the course of this season 2004-5.
The only criteria i set was set a limit of £2M per player and a little ambition,
FREE TRANSFERS
Wiltord
Izzet
Melchiot
Matteo
Hierro
Candela
Di Canio
Petit
Jimmy-Floyd
Zenden
Unsworth
Parlor
Kluivert
Bernard
Helveg
Rebrov
Poyet
Anderton
Nunez
Pellegrino
Babble
Danny Mills
TRANSFERS INVOLVING UNDISCLOSED FEES
Edman
Carrick
Alonso
Papa Diop
Sean Davis
Tim Cahill
Babyaro
SOME LOAN DEALS Of NOTE
Mido
Crespo
Kiki Musampa
Pandiani
Hadji Douf
Vignal
Ventola
Scrado
Pennant
Carlton Cole
FEES of £2M & UNDER
Josemi 2M
Amdy Faye 2M
Peter Crouch 2M
Rommedahl 2M
Radzinski 1.75M
Lau Lau 1.75M
Gera 1.5M
Fitz Hall 1.5M
Gronkjar 1.5M
Djemba Djemba 1.35M
El Karkouri 1M
Gary Speed 750K
Aliou Cisse 300k
Championship Manager TIme:
Considering we have wasted 1M on the midget from brazil and 1.5M + wages on henricam and were prepared to pledge the best part of 500K on fees and wages for Hartley.
You have £3.5M available how would you spend yours?
Me,, Cahill & Papa Diop, undisclosed fees estimate 500k. £1M in wages each = £2.5M , still got £1m for wages for free like Pellegrino or Oliver Bernard.
So sorry if i find the thought of diamon, naysmith hammel etal all a littel distasteful.
Celtic & MON have been guilty of wasting our transfer budget time and time again, I personaly would be appaled if MON were to be give a full 5 years worth of money up front, especailly when MON himself is only comitted to a yearly contract,
As a post note
I'll never forget listening to Liecester City fans on the radio the day MON left, one fan in particular sticks out, a die in the wool City fan he simply warned Celtic fans that MON will do what ever suits MON,
GUUS HIDDINK CSC
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All part of life’s rich tapestry VargasShampoo. It is good to change the debate around every wee while.
Agree again Anon 4.12.
As for the “Paul, great site”, “ Paul, what a lot of crap”, I am grateful for support when it comes, and though I will try to explain points to people who disagree, pointless abuse I reserve the right to skip after the first couple of lines – after all no-one is forced to read any of this.
Monmon, the Barcelona information is confirmed fact.
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Gus Hiddink, you say:
“You have £3.5M available how would you spend yours?
Me, Cahill & Papa Diop”
You are not allowed to sign yourself are you? :-)
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Being 37 over weight and with a bad back, i think Mr Hartson has that position covered
Guus Hiddink CSC
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I understand paul. I was not really looking for exact sources, just wanted to know if it was the type of "My brother-in-law's friend's cousin's dog told me" that the etims rumour mill is so fond of.
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oops, from westim (4:46)
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Talk about transfer budgets how much will/won’t he spend will the board give him the money and who he should buy. The most of the comments are made up of opinions no more or less in reality we don’t know what is going to happen. If Paul says he has a trusted source who has gave him the evidence of the change of tact in the transfer game then I will give him the benefit of the doubt and stick my hat in the ring and say I hope he is right. If it doesn’t come off well that’s life no grudges no playground squabble he said such and such etc.
One thing is true how you spend the money you get is more important but it doesn’t guarantee you success. Look at our signings this season -
Henri Camara- Henri came with a reputation of lightning quick pace ability and a scoring threat and attributes that we hadn’t had in a centre forward for ages a European centre forward. Had my doubts but supported him but my doubts were proved correct. Seemed to smell of panic when Martin signed him to many Dear John letters I think clouded his judgement. Henri had a few games when he showed he was a player but on the days he wasn’t interested he was just as bad as me on a public park. For me Henri’s trouble is that he believes he is a player, a good attribute, but also believed that no matter whom he was playing for it was beneath him. Only the cream of Europe would do for him not the spl backwater. Southampton is too small as well as they will find.
Juninho- Great idea but came into for me an ailing side who were and are still struggling. 1st game I think the occasion saw him through as well as the team carrying him but he was always going to throw the balance of the team out. We couldn’t go to a 3 at the back, as the players we have didn’t have the pace to adjust. His appearance in the team started the period of terrible performances and results we were trying to accommodate someone who wasn’t doing what he was instructed to do. Barcelona and Shakter were perfect examples also his posted missing performance in the CIS cup game at ibrox, his not tracking back allowing the defence to be stretch in nearly every game he played. I really wanted him to be the star of the show but what I saw was a shadow of the Juninho that I knew and that we all knew and it was just sad.
Craig Bellamy has done more than these two should more commitment and work rate than these two in the few games he has been here.
Signing players for the sake of signing someone don’t make a season and are always guaranteed to fail and I think this season our lack of forward planning has led to us struggling to win the league against a poor rangers side who unfortunately for us signed well and the average players they signed are punching above their weight.
All we can hope for in the summer that Martin chooses well and has done his homework and bargain basement deadline day chancers are not on the menu.
Kilo O’Neal
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Agree with the comments re Hartson, Hopefully we offered him the new deal to bring in a transfer fee.
Definately think his best days are behind him.
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Reading the above, everybody and their uncle's chipping-in with who is joining the exodus from Celtic Park in the summer.
Just who is going to take "our deadwood", as they're often referred to by many posters on here?
Remember, they're on big salaries, so most won't want to budge, I reckon, unless of course, their contracts are up, and therefore have no option.
Re Juninho & South American players in general, with the very odd exception, they just don't do the business here. Our youngsters, and Europeans, is the way forward.
Canajunbhoy...thanks for your reply last night.
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Let's hope we do sign some players but those who think we can just get rid of ones they don't fancy (quite possibly none of us fancy) is just not going to happen. Nor can we simply pick up any of those identified by "Guus Hiddink" or his/her ilk. Remember we are in the SPL, like it or lump it and the Spaniards and Italians certainly won't for the most part lump it.
Get the best we can, which seems to be Scandanavian or East European.
Parkheadcumsalford
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We should go for Zoltan Gera from WBA. We could get him for £2/3m and he would play that role that Lubo played, and possibly on the right.
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Guus Hiddink...
where do you get the £3.5m to spend...ny suggestions are based on the annual budget available to MON to cover the costs of his squad......at present at least £30 million...how he spends that is presumably up to him......in my very humble opinion he has not spent a lot of it very well....we seem to be giving very lucrative contracts to players whose best days are not going to happen in the future....while I like loyalty, I don't want my team being a retirement home for over trhe hill overpaid players!!
What makes you think that Cahill and Diop's wages would be less than £2m per year combined?...where do you get the idea that their transfer(?) fees were in total less than 500k? Are they really that good either?
I am not suggesting Diamond/Riordan etc as the complete answer..I am trying to deal with reality .Riordan has scored almost as many this year as our loveable Welshman....presumably on chances and wages that are much less in both instances.....my suggestions also include a very skillful midfielder and a request that we find two strong defenders out of the multitudes who are available ..as your very lengthy post demonstrates...Diamond appears to be fair prospect..perhaps no better than our own..Kennedy?
All I am suggesting is that our squad needs serious refreshment....and I think it needs some turnover of players...I think my suggestions would create a resaonably balanced squad which would be significantly more youthful than the current one....don't buy this nonsense that it takes years to buold a team...MON got one going very quickly in his first season...why can't he do it again...
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To Guus Hiddink CSC and others
Just wondering what this mythological Leicester City fan thinks of its managers since MON left. The best period in the clubs history, with 2 trophies, 2 seasons in Europe and regularly finishing top 1/2 in EPL. Well if that's what happens when MON 'does what MON likes', then very few sane Leicester City fans could or indeed did complain.
Which brings me to my next point - I see the cream-faced loons are out again. You know who you are. You make it sound like managing our club is an easy job; a job perhaps the cream-faced loons themselves could pull off. Look at Guus' lovely list with all those lovely players that Martin could've and should've bought. Crespo! Just put your gear in brain for a second and try to remember what is was like for the best part of 20 years.
I'm getting increasingly impatient with the stupidity displayed by some contributors (sorry, if that offends, deal with it) and it's got nothing to do with social class or background, fashion sense, or even those that chose to boo, just stupidity. I wish there were fewer of you around and more of the vast majority of contributors to this fine site.
There - spleen been vented - let we enlightened many continue the endless task of bringing the cream faced loons into the sunshine.
Paul67 your patience is a rare thing - we should put in a small box, polish it often and treasure it - we might even wish to put it on a big gold chain - or maybe not.
McGraininSpain
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JIM62
The £3.5M figure is based on nothing more than this simple rule of economic rocket science,
the brazilian cost roughly £1m in wages & undisclosed fee
Camara, £1.5M fee and 1/2 a years wages of estimated 20K per week, would roughly equate to £2M, include the
proposed 1/2M ( fee and wages) spend on Hartley.
This seems to have been the extent of which MON was willing\aloud to recruit this season, in my estimate this season alone the above would have cost us in the region of £3.5M.
Cahill ( sounds like a good oirish name to me) was in the final 6 months of his contract at Millwall hence the nominal fee, playing football in the championship or £20K a week and champions league football , come on, ( saying that he may get it with davey moyes)
as for (El) Papa Diop, again running down his contract at Lens, there fore nominal fee, i really don't think Fulham would be paying a player who at the time was an unknown French journey man more than £1M a year, ( they got shot of Sean Davis to Spurs on an undisclosed fee cause he was becoming a player of worth, Spurs fans now rate this boy highly,) again why would he choose a potential relegation dog fight and winning heehaw over the champions league & cis cup ?
As for their quality, it's all about opinions, and they are like arseholes, every one has one, some of the good people on here, and this is the only place for grown ups to discuss matters of a celtic nature, even think momo syla had a good game once, but the thought of a midfield containing Cahill & (El) PapaDiop linked with Petrov & McGeady would excite me more than a weary midfield containing thompson & Lennon, but as i said it's all about arseholes, eh i mean opinions.
100% behind you though jim with regard to refreshing the team, and reducing the age, as for the turn over of players you mentioned, it can't come quick enough, and for what it's worth I do genuinely believe Diamond and Riordan would be better prospects than Hammel and Hartley, who sound like a firm of defence lawyers.
G.H.C.S.C. badges and caps available soon,
JUSTIFICATUS ET ANTIQUUS CSC
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McGrain-inthearse,
caller were you at the match? ever?
The supporter i heard was real if he was mythological i doubt he'd have got on 5 live, old testament may be, but 5 live hardly,
The point you make is not a huge leap of faith of course they would rather have MON as manager and be in the premiership, the point i was making was that even after 2 trophies, and there european trips he was not sad to see MON go, ( the fact Leicester City choose to follow MON with an unproven england under 21 manager was probably a bigger contributory factor to where they are now,
(i was at the Coca Cola Cup draw against Middlesboro in '97 at Wembley and have never,never,ever attended a more dull and negative cup final in my puff, & and i've been to a B&Q cup final, Middlesboro apart from Chris Morris And Derek White, obviously world class, had Juninio, Ravanelli & Emerson, the ball had snow on it and Neil Lenon was man of the match, you can imagine the rest, i got leathered by half time it was so avoid of entertainment)
WTF is a cream faced loon, if you put this in google you get some quite disturbing links, if this is what you think of me I'll kick your feckin, we'll leave it at that.
The list is not a case of who we should have bought, just a list of who we could have bought with the limited funds available, i.e. those players who moved on the cheap.
Crespo left chelsea onloan,personaly i think he is one of the worlds best at leading the line, a joy to watch even when he does not have the ball, (can't say the same for Sutty nor BBJ ) i gather that from your incredulity with regard to me suggesting this you must have shit your self when we got Bellers,
as for your suggestion of remembering what it was like for 20 years i dont have to try too hard, there was 20 years of underinvestment, and being told to know your place, we are now in the digital age, 20 years ago do you think arthur montford envisaged Sky Plus, bet it's been 20 year since you regularly attended matches though
You say you wish there were fewer of US around and more of the vast majority of contirbutors on here, could you please supply me with a list of subjects and topics that you are comfortable with so as not to upset you. And if this IS the general concensis of people on here i'll never darken your door again, and you can turn it in to the cosy wee golf club you would like, full of big jocks and wee percys. Know your place percy, well feck you Jock
You claim to be enlighted, please demonstrate this YA FUD
Bet you've got a No 7 strip with Janinho on it,
Are you Rod Stewart?
on a lighter note
I hear, that Roy Milne's got a bit of promise,
Bringiton CSC
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Yeah, what is a cream-faced loon (askin anyone, not just McGraininSpain)
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Oh boy, aggression and disagreement must be a couple of football fans,
Have all the accountants knocked off for the day?
Seriously though it's nice to have this type of subject instead of the old financial blah blah blah that we seem caught up with in almost discussion.
GUUS HIDDINK can't say too many of the players you listed would do much for Celtic, the ones that might are for reasons already mentioned elsewhere NOT going to come to Scotland/S(PL)crap heap league anyway, a la Basturk.
Paul67, one of the earlier mails mentioned Dr. Jo, Lubo and eastern Europe scouting, have you any feedback on what's going on or any promising reports.
Of course the first thing we need is for someone to break MONs apparent obsession with the EPL player pool, and look elsewhere. Whatever happened to the young Polish guy on trial?
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If your info is correct Paul I can only say thank God that the penny's dropped at last and I await developments with baited breath.
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This is off topic but has anyone seen the sports articles from scotsman.com? We always (rightfully) get on at our media but it's refreshing to see the way they covered the story about Landreau (they're stealing your ideas, paul) and also they manage to pick up on the absence of a minutes silence at the weekend.
I've never seen their other articles but they it seems like they are interested fact-based, balanced reports on scottish football.
Anyway, just thought i would tell people. You never know, it might interest some of you
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McGraininSpain, great to hear from you again in such re-affirming form. Family and business life is good in the ’67 household these days, so it takes quite a bit to disturb my patience medallion.
Oregonbhoy, the site seems to have an unusual dose of invective today. Those who know better than me tell me that it is impossible to maintain a healthy does of respect on an open web forum, even among Celtic fans.
There are sociologists looking into this subject right now.
We will keep trying.
The Dr Jo question, I have no direct information, and suspect that the plan was a victim of our legendary employee relations back then.
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Agree on The Scotsman anon, would add Britney at The Herald as well.
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I dont know if this has been mentioned but there has been an interesting development on NTL recently. It's called video on demand, which allows you to order programmes to be streamed to you decoder. Unlike Sky+, you can ffwd, rewind and pause, but you dont have to have a harddrive to record. The program is streamed from an NTL hub and the program is manipulated at their end.
I raise this in connection with the setanta deal. What are there rights into the recording and viewing of spl games next season? I understand that skysports may be going to VOD in the near future, if setanta follow suit, this technology has very lucrative possibilities for subscribers to order tailored channel selections (e.g highlights or delayed viewing) I'm positive any revenue from this (which could dwarf the value of the current setanta contract revenue in the first season)would not be detailed in the SPL contract with setanta and the revenue would be negotiated with the teams playing. I know setanta's penetration internationally is becoming fairly decent, and they could make very decent profits if this avenue is available to them.
I feel a very decent revenue would be made from this, even without having to move to england so desparately and we would have more bargaining power based on the viewing figures from these matches. This would prove our value to future tv deal and league negotiotions when the revenue made is measured
Whats your thoughts
Hoopy_the_round
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Guus Bringiton
Simmer doon, wee fella. So let me get it straight - it was Leicester's finest period and this bloke wasn't sad to see MON go? And you didn't think this spurious utterance was odd? This you heard some five years ago, you remember it and indeed try to convince us that it of any relevance at all? Like it is some sort of proof of your view that MON should leave Celtic Park. Guus - he was daft. To prove my enlightened nature, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. The City of Leicester is still in mourning - trust me on this one.
I was thrilled to hear that we were both at the Leicester/Boro' final. Emerson didn't get a sniff with Savage giving him loads of attention and Ravanelli played like his lookalikey, Father Ted (RIP). No-one's pretending that any of MON's teams play the most attractive of football - but the choice is yours - at best the Burns way, at worst the Macari way, or the way it's been this past 5 seasons.
My incredulity about Crespo is based on the fact you think he'd come to play Dunfermline and ICT or indeed that we could pay his £60-70000 a week wage bill. Think it through. As for Bellamy, in the early days of the rumours about him coming up, some on this site were saying they didn't like the look of him, that his track record wasn't right for Celtic. I said loudly and clearly then that we should take 'the risk', because I felt that if there's a manager anywhere in the world that could bring out the best in Bellamy, it'd be Martin. Go back and take a look at previous postings.
And for goodness sake, get yourself on that anger management course that your social worker's been recommending for a while now.
Hail, hail!
McGraininSpain
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PaulW88 - In what way bizzare? If the fans hadn't got behind the share issue and bought the season tickets would Fergus have made the money?
I agree - Fergus did exactly what he said he would do - but I refer you again to the fact that he spent a season protecting his investment while the club faltered again on the pitch. But it was still okay for us as supporters to cough up the season ticket cash for a wasted (sacrificed) season.
Don't ever expect equality of reporting from the press - they are institutionally sectarian (again see previous posts).
Does anyone else find it bizarre that we let Juninho go now? 7 league games to go and we deplete the squad - again! Someone remind me - how many additional players have a got since the end of last season and now?
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McGrain
I only remember this fella, simply because he gave a different point of view from your usual reactionary mass, hence it stuck in the back of my aging brain, and i thought i'd mention it, not every one thinks the sun shines out of MONs arse, me included.
As for Crespo, i just gave you an list of players available during the same time we panic bought, juninho camera and nearly yorke, as for Crespo playing at ICT or Dunfermline, i agree but do you really think he gets a frankie vaughn playing against, Brescia,Chievo,Bologna,Cagliari,Lecce,Siena,Messina Udinese or Livorno, the Italian League is as full of shite teams as much as the English Premiership, don't kid your self.
I know Celtic can not compete with clubs such as AC Milan for the like of Crespo, that does not mean we should be happy with the SPL diddies we have, 3/4's of our current squad is past it or never had it, sadly we require more than just Craig Bellamy.
As for you asking that i go back to look at previous posts i must inform you that my care worker has told me of the danger of living in the past and only to look forward,
Peace love and harmony,
Still unsure about the creamy faced loon CSC
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Paul67, Invective, Yes have to say I haven't laughed as much for a while either.
Still like to know about the Dr. Jo, Lubo thing does anyone else have info ?
Briniton CSC & McGraininSpain great comments, all this discussion and no bookeeping - brilliant, keep on sparring.
As for Leicester under MON as/previous posts I always worried that he would fall back into the safety first, boring (God so boring!) style that they played.
Couldn't care less if that was their most sucessfull years, it's not the Celtic WAY.
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