 Friday, May 13, 2005
First Glazer, then individual TV deals, then Celtic and Rangers in the Premiership
While the Glazer takeover opens up opportunities for Celtic, I cannot help but feel for Manchester United fans. They are genuinely traumatised by this and will become estranged from the club they love. What will be most disappointing for them is that their board let it all happen.
Manchester United board have been culpable for failing bring in revenue which could easily have been theirs.
By participating in a collective TV deal, Manchester United were subsidising the like of West Brom and Fulham to the tune of £80million per annum.
That they have left this money on the table made them vulnerable to a hostile takeover. If they had achieved a better TV deal in 2004 they would not be in this mess today. In a belated attempt to rescue the situation they hit their poor fans with 25% price increases for next season – and these are the people the fans want to remain in charge.
Glazer will cut his own TV deal, which will be worth in excess of £100million per annum. He has no choice, if he does not he will not be able to make a return on his money.
When Glazer moves is there any doubt that Abramovich will follow suit at Chelsea? What about Feddie Shepherd at Newcastle, is he likely to pass up a bit of revenue?
Then there is Arsenal, a club who are building a stadium costing in excess of £600million who have been unable to sell-out their existing 38,000 seat stadium. Can they afford to pass this money up?
Liverpool have seen the estimates for their new stadium rise by 50% in 18months, they are also trying to fight-off a take-over bid. What are the chances that they will leave some cash on the table?
As I have been saying here for many months, in 2007 there will not be a collective TV deal for the English Premiership. Many smaller clubs will crash and burn.
The key question is; will each of the above clubs make more money selling TV rights when they play Wigan and Portsmouth or when they play Celtic and Rangers?
The decision to invite the Glasgow clubs south will not go to a vote; it will be decided by a handful of men who share a common vision for the game on this island. If Dermot Desmond is half as shrewd as I think he is, he will have had a meeting of minds with Glazer on this subject before selling his Manchester United shares.
As for Man Utd fans, time may just prove them wrong over Glazer. The current board have presided over enormous underachievement. They have been caught in the same trap with Alex Ferguson as Rangers were in with Walter Smith; he does well domestically, so they cannot sack him, but in Europe…..
For the last fifteen years Manchester United have either been richest or second richest club in the world every season, what little they have to show for all this financial domination.
Glazer will see domestic success for what it is - a solace for those who cannot cut it with the big boys.
I wonder if we will see a share issue soon?
72 Comments:
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Spot on. It's an open secret in football that Man U see the other clubs as living on their hard work not only with the Premiership TV deals but also in opeing up new markets such as China and Japan.
If they do their own media rights deals the door is open for a major shake-up. Desmond could be a key player here in his discussions with Glazer.
Also there are strong rumours of a new share issue at Celtic which Desmond is backing and the timing makes sense.
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Feel for the Man U fans, don't... Serves them right for stealing Liam Miller on a free, hope that hun Ferguson loses his job too, l won't lose a minutes sleep.
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Well if it works out & we reclaim our place at the top of da table
?celtic=capitalism works, I for 1 will be laffin'?
roll on Sunay Sunday at Tynehassle!
Tiochfaidh arla'
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All of this has got nothing to do with football!
Paul you redeem yourself for pitying Man United fans, but he rest of it makes me sick to my stomach.
You are saying that this move by Glazer will force him/Man United to demand:
- a bigger slice of any TV deal (and thereby leaving less for smaller EPL teams)
- more expensive season tickets etc for their fans
- demand for higher TV viewing figures i.e Celtic playing Man United, to earn MORE cash from paying viewers
- Celtic to come into the EPL for this to happen
This is the end of football as a sport, as a social activity, as giving a feeling of community, as being fair and competitive and as being something ordinary people would want to be involved in.
So many posts on the previous thread (San Miguel excepted) seem to be whetting their lips about this. That is bonkers! As San Miguel rightly said…
‘We may make the bright lights of the EPL, but we will become the Burger King or even Wimpy to the McDonalds (Man Utd) in the new Corporate Premier League.
Do these people really have any emotional attachment to football ?
I doubt it.’
Too true!
I’ve read on news sites that the Man Utd supporters groups are, apart from being angry, talking about not renewing their season tickets, stop going to see the team they love and even talk of creating a Manchester club that represents the traditions and the community of the club as it has done for the last 100- odd years.
Before anyone says anything other, Man Utd fans are no different from us, we are no better than them. This snapping up great community-based institutions WILL HAPPEN TO CELTIC, if your predictions (continue to) come true Paul. ‘Wimpy’ indeed.
Too many big investors/millionaires/blood-suckers/shysters are taking more and more of OUR money, in front of our faces, whilst telling us it’ll make our lives better (our football teams exciting and successful). A BIG FAT OLD-AS-THE-HILLS LIE!
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Hello Paul, Manu story is on here on ESPN sports,it refers to pay per view, individual tv contracts,your right again, he's looking at North American market. A Shift is starting to happen.....Whats next for Celtic?
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Yes the winds of change will blow accross Europe over the next few seasons. Money rules, the economics of football are not what they were.
I am convinced the strong will get stronger and the weak will get weaker.
Opportunity knocks.
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Football is traditional, but it has changed since 1888,1967,1988, it has now come to the time when Celtic cant win the Champons league without being in a huge income league(except PVS,porto freek good managers, different issue)Celtic in the ePL with a top manager no offence to MON but Celtic in the ePL could attract Cappello, think about it big team,big money, realistic chance of doing something huge.We would be in the big league.
Id love it if as one chip wrapper said today (the rednecksish) monkies were left behind,it was said before and I agree we dont need the neanderthalistics.Celtic park can be filled without that keech.
Bottom line Dermot Desmond has bought shares after talking to his Cubic (not the 808 state tune) pals and he has had a bet/guess against their decision to invest in MU while he bet in Celtic to see who would make the most money. But they are now out of it so Dermot Desmond is waiting for the TV deal that Paul67 mentioned.
Estadio Nacional
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All this talk about share issue for Celtic in the near future with probably Magnier/McManus being the major investors has me nervous. I for one don't want anyone doing to Celtic what they have just done to Man Utd. I bought in to Fergus' idea of the majority of the club being owned by the supporters and never again by an individual.
The problem is if they buy-in, what's to stop them selling to some megalomaniac in the future who could then fully control Celtic on their whim(by doing just what Glazier has done)? Sure, if it came to pass it may turn out ok, but it's too risky for me.
You could point to Abramovich and say look what he's done for Chelsea - but it's still too early in the day to say whether he will be good or bad for them in the long run. He could get disinterested and sell up leaving them with huge debts, or sell to someone else unscrupulous. What's more, we could end up with a tool like the polo mint from the other side of the city in charge. Heaven forbid.
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Tradition, community, MacDonalds, Wimpy. Man Utd fans can moan all they like about it and so could we. The fact is that football clubs are subject to the same laws of economics as other businesses.
I would suggest that we are in a slightly different position from ManU. The influx of 80,000 + to Seville suggests as much. Our market is already there. Yes, we might have to do our far east marketing. BUT we are the original 'inclusive' club.
The Irish diaspora is our main target and if Glazer manages to do a 'Radiohead' and crack America with a British product then the potential for Celtic is huge. We can do it without losing our identity as a club. To stretch the analogy too far we shouldn't stop making records at 'Pablo Honey' 'cos the royalties just aren't going to be enough.
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Paul, I live just outside Manchester, so the sound of grinding teeth is very loud here.
Although I obviously have some sympathy with the Utd supporters, even they are admitting already that their arrogance over the last few years haven't helped them.
Last year, when Ferguson was arguing about shares in horses etc.. and it all got out of hand, the supporters started disrupting race meetings, threatening McManus and Magnier and let the world know that they thought the chaps at Cubic were a thoroughly bad lot.
What happens this year, they demand that Cubic dismiss any offer from Glazer.
Ryesammy - There have been a number of reports of the last couple of months that a supporters group are ready to launch a team a la AFC Wimbledon, and progress through the league structure to become even bigger than they are now. Nice idea, but if the world of football is changing so much, I don't fancy their chances.
What has this got to do with Celtic? We have already seen off the Kelly/White era but lets not get complacent and think that we are any different to any other potential money making organisation.
The individuals who will become involved when the stakes are raised will not be intimidated or bullied out of their position.
In 1994 we were not dealing with particularly astute businessmen, we are now.
Over the last few topics on CQN, without fail, it has come back to 'DD must put more money in' and he has done nothing for us. What would their response be if Glazer type character came in for Celtic? DD wouldn't be so bad then.
Personally, I am amazed at the response in Manchester. It is too early to ascertain what Glazer's real intentions are and as you quite rightly point out Paul, I also believe that any structure to a TV deal has been agreed.
Maybe this is a reminder to us all to think before berating a major shareholder of a team with great potential but ultimately a team that has made a loss over the last few years.
Interesting but potentially dangerous times ahead.
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I can't feel sorry for the Man U fans. They will be long term winners out of this. Given the amount of debt being raised to finance this transaction Mr Glazer has a vested interest in making this work. FOOTBALLING SUCCESS IS IMPERATIVE.
Of course, this kind of story will not sell newspapers etc. so the media prefer to go with the more hysterical Jonny Foreigner coming to exploit a venerable English institution angle.
Someone described Glazer as an asset stripper. Do you know what that means? Man U, like Celtic, will have two main assets on its balance sheet: the players and the stadium. The combined value of these will come nowhere near the £790m he's paying for the club.
Again, like Celtic, Man U have 3 main sources of income: gameday reveue, merchandise and TV money. Glazer needs to maximise all three. If he pisses off the fans, bang goes his gameday and merchandising revenue. If he doesn't invest in the team, will the TV rights be as lucrative? FOOTBALLING SUCCESS IS IMPERATIVE.
Human beings do not like change and uncertainty and the next few months will undoubtedly be trying for Man U fans. The media will be more than happy to pray on this but knowing how fickle football fans can be, I am fairly certain that when the dust settles Mr Glazer's influence will ultimately be welcomed.
GM
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All very interesting stuff. Nonetheless the need for refelctions and some sanity is needed here. What are the ramifications of the situation.
Celtic in the epl ?. Rangers in the epl, god forbid. The huns getting bigger, more revenue , more exposure etc etc. Is this what we really want to export to the world, bigotry sectarianism, the up to their knees brigade.
No, both celtic and rangers are and have always been teams based in scotland and long may it continue.
Celtic fans singing about the ira for example will not go down well at all in england, there are greater issues at hand here than making more money. Our history and our being has been in scotland where the nasty side of our game has been contained.
I wonder how the fan base would react after several years of NOT winning anything in the epl. Do people really believe we could compete with chelski and man u no we couldnt. We spend a tenner abramovich would only spend 100.
The saying cut your cloth comes to mind. We already are a big club who win things one day we might get lucky in the champions league, but to sell our soul to the highest bidder no ,
This is Celtic we are talking about not the all star celts playing out of the Suzuki stadium with a middle class fan base munching prawn sandwiches.
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I fully smpathise with the tradidional Man U fans here. The people who came out to protest last night are the ones that really care about their club and their community. Sadly, like here at Celtic, they will be in the minority. Too many people turn up at football these days as it seems fashionable to do so. These self same people will dissappear to follow other pursuits when they become popular.
I believe that football clubs, in particular our club, have a duty to the community it represents. I don't think we should stand by and let people like Desmond, Magnier, McManus further undermine our identity and dilute the traditions that saw the formation of OUR beloved club.
Supporting Celtic, for me, is about so much more that just success on the park. I realise that i might also be in the minority here, but i fear the day is fast approaching when i will no longer feel that i can continue to support a club that abandons absolutley everything that i hold dear about Celtic
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I had started to write this last night but it didn’t feel part of the discussion that was going on at that time.
Anyway my tuppence worth.
Glamour friendlies are only glamorous when they are a change from the routine.
European nights are special because they are not the run of the mill.
Five years down the line from any new mega-television deal it will have become old. What will the money men want then? In the words of Dr Seuss, ‘business is business and business must grow’
We are probably too late but rather than encouraging these people we should fight them. OK the end result may mean some players having to settle for just 10x the average man’s wage but at least we would still have a game we recognise.
Call me old fashioned but I like the fact that we play for the right to be champions of Scotland before trying to become champions of Europe.
I’ll stop now because the only way to truly express how I feel on this subject would take too many words for this format.
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anon. 9.26.
What's wrong with the middle classes? Are they not allowed to watch football?
My dad worked as a labourer for many years for the council. I am up here having sold my soul for the oil dollar-and I'm happy to say enough of them make it into my pocket to make it worthwhile.
Fortunately my dad's still speaking to me and neither of us like prawn sandwiches. :)
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Anons 9.26 and 9.30, can you give me the definition of what constitutes a Celtic fan.
I get the impression from your comments (and the comments of others who post here)that you have to fall in to a certain religous, social and political category to be considered a "true" fan.
At the game last Saturday there were two guys sitting behind me bedecked in green and white, proudly displaying their gold crusifixes outside their tops. They spent most of the game singing about the IRA and shouting abuse at most of the team when things broke down. They then proceeded to leave 10 minutes early. Are they "true" fans??
GM
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Rammiebhoy
The Scottish Socialist Party got hee haw in the election, that's because these extreme left wing policies are not wanted by the electorate. It's the same with football, it's a business, live with it, and we are very fortunate we have good business people running our club. Celtic are at last going to realise its full business and football potential, I for one hope to make a return on my investment while seeing my team becaome a top european team again.
Enjoy the G8 protests.
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I would be totally against the coolmore mafia taking control of our club. We must fight tooth and nail to stop this type of thing happening.
They take control – 5 years down the line they decide that they have had enough and they sell their shares to anyone – who has no regard to our traditions.
Yes, we must progress financially off the park as we are all aware that what happens off the pitch directly affects what happens on it – like it or not.
These types of people don’t become millionaires by living their lives like the good guy’s they exploit any opportunity they can (good on them that’s their choice) but its not going to do us any good in the long run.
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We have been at the poor man’s table in the shape of the SPL for too long, we and Rangers have subsidised the majority of clubs in Scotland again for too long.
Imagine how we would fell if we did not get to the top table.
This is very much a watershed in world football not only in England. It is not often on a football web site that you can quote Mary Queen of Scots but she said at her trial in England that “The theatre of all the world is not confined to the shores of England”.
For me the move to the EPL or whatever new name it would have after reconstruction would be the first of many steps.
We have to look at the way football has changed in the last 45 years with the onset of European football and now with global T.V.
I am sure that the top financial people of Celtic DD BQ and Peter Lawell will look well beyond these shores. To the deals in France and Italy no doubt.
They are playing a long game, and we are a potential major player.
Yes I have reservations but they are far outweighed by the way things would pan-out if we were not involved.
Thanks to all on this site who debate in a way which is not only from the heart but well thought through (obviously I exclude myself from the last part).
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Your analysis is just about right Paul.
Although to feel sorry for Man Utd supporters is nonsence.
For all the lilly livered hand wringers who prefer the status quo, come on what colour is the sky in your world? – a serious business man and money man in McCann saved us from the doors closing, serious money men doing deals with Sky have raised the profile and the coffers of the English league to undreamt of heights.
Can anybody seriously suggesting that a return to the collective butchers, bakers and candlestickmakers running clubs as in yesteryear is a good thing?
Can anybody seriously suggesting that ‘custodian’ running clubs as in yesteryear is a good thing?
God help us and save us if people seriously believe that.
What we are seeing now is no different from the fundamental changes that have always happened in football……. The rise of professionalism and decline of amateur status….. Celtic were at the forefront of that……. Was that good or bad for the game and good or bad for us?
In 1897 there was great debate as Celtic became a private limited liability company (as did many others) …. Was that good or bad for the game and good or bad for us?
The PLC status and Fergus (Ghod bless him) in 1994…. Was that good or bad for the game and good or bad for us?
Football has always been more than just a game both in terms of its social importance and as a business.
This move by Glazer will hopefully be seen in years to come as another stage in football development, a move which enabled the desires, aspirations and ambitions of OUR great Club to be realised both in a UK and European environment.
Ultimately men like Glazer and Desmond make money buy giving people what they want…… just as people now go to a superstore rather than their local butchers, bakers and candlestickmakers.
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You are correct ryesammy,with all this so called new money that will be on offer,the bloodsucking capitalists are in a line to buy into Celtic.
Yes we will become a huge club as a result of this inital investment but small really in terms of what they will walk away with in years to come!If they don't make as much money as possible,ie.using our full potential,then like it or not,the Glazers of this world will take you over 'cos they know better!
Starting to sound a familiar story anyone? It's not just us,we have simply joined the football world of the Man Utd,Arsenal,Barca,Chelsea etc.
Even Hearts are getting dealt a hand at the table now.
We have to realise that we could be even bigger than that again without "Companies" sucking us dry again.We all talk about it being our club,they are only custodians,Those days are long gone and now we finally know it.
Is there any way back?
We have ALL over the years slagged off the Kellys/Whites,then McCann for taking money out the club(McCann did it all first,put a few quid in,improve things and leave with the some of the Clubs cash too)
Suprise Suprise, What's happening now?We have Mr.Desmond & Co. (short for Coolmore) entering the picture,ready to do what McCann did before a few years earlier.It was long term with McManus,buy into Man utd,mean while,the co acussed is up in Glasgow,slowly eroding the price of our shares so he and his mates can buy at bargain prices
Even MON caught on to what was going on and put a few million in too.
Seeing that there's "still something left on the table" so to speak,they will be able to buy in at a miserable 50p or there abouts a share.How much did you pay for your shares?
NegativeAnon I have listened to you very carefully since the beginning and have been in agreement with your thinking.We don't deny the club will get bigger,but in the long term is it good for the club?
There has to be some sort of balance to make it work (that includes the team)
We must NOT ignore the very fact that these people will come and go over the years,pay a little in,take a lot out,it's the way it will be,like it or lump it.
Is there any way back?
The demon on our left shoulder is saying "take the money" at the same time.No turning back now.
All aboard,
The Gravey Train is about to leave,with or without you.
Exciting times ahead indeed.
Cabbage McFlabbergaster
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Anon 9:54 I never mentioned anything in my original post(anon9:30) about politics or religion. Sadly it seems that your own particular prejudices have caused you to do so. I know why my family, for three generations, have supported Celtic and i don't feel the need to justify that to you or anywhere else. Perhaps you need to do some soul searching of your own to exorcise the sectarian demons that you carry around.
Rammiebhoy. I can only make assumptions here, but i believe that if Brother Walfrid were around today, then he would be leading the protests at the G8 summit and I, for one, would be proud to stand shoulder to shoulder with him.
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Well done Paul ....... crystal ball still seems to be in working order. Can you e-mail me the numbers tonight for the Euromillions draw and the correct scores for the next two Sundays?
As for MON and Alex Ferguson. MON's biggest allies at Manure have just sold their shares, so there won't be a mad scramble to get him there. I also suspect that DD will sell out to Glazer once he has an assurance if Cubic (it was a great tune Estadio Nacional) haven't already received one that Ferguson will be at the jobcentre soon.
However, Glazer is facing a revolt from the fans, which will at least continue through the close season until they see the colour of his money in the transfer market. I'm not convinced that he'll want to rock the boat further by firing Ferguson now - he was an ally of the fans during the boardroom struggle. Instead, I suspect he will play the long game. as Abramovich did in his first season with Chelski. Persevere with the incumbent until he has secured the services one of Europe's best. Ferguson is on a 12 month rolling contract from the summer. Advising him now that he is on notice allows him to leave at no cost to the club in 12 month's time.
What does this all mean to Celtic then?
I agree, Glazer is a shrewd businessman, every bit as shrewd as DD and his mates. So why have cubic sold up? Have they realised a huge return on their investment and can't see how Manure can generate greater returns in the future? Or are they likely to re-invest (given the opportunity)in a 'sleeping giant' that can be as big as Manure if access can be achieved to the EPL?
When the convertible preference shares convert in a couple of years, DD has effective control of the club anyway. If he genuinely doesn't want this, he will have to go for some kind of placing soon - so a summer share issue may be in the offing.
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Anon 10.23, I'm not asking you to justify anything. I simply asked what do you have to do or be to be considered a true Celtic fan? You obviously have an opinion.
Should the Club actively exclude people who do not conform to your definition??
GM
p.s. I'm not going to respond to the other insinuations you made in your post.
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Anon - 9.56
I certainly don't have any problem with football and Celtic in particular, being a business.
I also hope that you do make a return on your investment.
All I was trying to point out was that we can only operate in our current market and we have done so successfully.
To take it to the next level will mean playing with people who want to make even more money. Nothing wrong with that but it does bring its dangers.
As I also said, I think it is too early to whether Glazer will be good or bad for Utd and football as a whole.
If there are big changes in the structure, we want to be in at the beginning, my only concern is - at what cost?
Nothing wrong with the right amount of scepticism, it will bring value to our judgements but not blind us to opportunities
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Personally i think we will be playing in another league in the not too distant future because people like Glazer are not borrowing sums of money like £300 million so they can get a nice steady profit each year. Me thinks as Paul 67 has indicated that there are big moves ahead for British Football. While i would be over the moon about competing with the big boys, this would be tinged with a bit of sadness too as people like My Old Man will be left behind & left feeling that the club no longer belongs to the fans anymore - that's probably a factor in the demonstrations outside Old Trafford at the minute because the ordinary Working Class punter, the days of the terraces, macaroon & spearmint chewing gum, drinking cans of lager in The Jungle are all gone. I'm not sure what i want to be honest.
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ANON 10:23. I see, it is ok for you to make insinuations and assumptions but nobody else can. Sorry if i hit a raw nerve.
Anyway to answer your question, as far as i am aware Celtic since its inception have been an all inclusive club, open to all. This is one of the underpinning priciples that i "hold dear" about us. So it follows that my answer would be NO, the club should not be actively excluding anyone.
I do not have a definition of what makes a "true fan" (your words not mine) but as i previously said, having learned the history from my father and grandfather before him, i know what attracts me to Celtic and why they play such a prominent part in my life.
It really is a matter of individual choice I suppose. You need to make your own mind up.
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I dont know whats going on with all this ManUtd stuff and dont really care.
Do i want to see celtic compete with the best you bet i do, but i wont hold my breath.
Im not sure if DD is planning anything apart from selling his shares and picking up his cheque.
All i know is that i dont want a Glazer type figure taking over Celtic if we do reach the EPL and to be honest i dont think that is a foregone conclusion.
I live in hope of MON leading us to the European Cup if it does happen and not Cappello as someone else mentioned in the last article.
MON is the man to take us there.
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Cheers Anon 10.50. Just what I thought.
All the best.
GM
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Has DD not repeatedly said that Celtic were an 'emotional' investment?
Paul, how does this square with the way you envisage the next moves to be?
Is he lying when he says this or being rather economical with the truth?
I'm with a lot of other sentiments on this site, sure I want us to get bigger and more successful but at what price? And do we have a choice any more?
I have never felt comfortable since Murdoch and Sky came to the table. Actually, since then and I have never felt the same watching a footballer kicking a ball about a park and earning more in a week than I do in a year.
'Their careers over by 35 so they need that kind of money' to survive after that'. Anyone out there got a job for life? Maybe footballers should earn a decent wage like the rest of us and maybe work after they are 35! (No?!) Aaahhhh, that feels much better now I've got that out............
I'm an old romantic I guess.....it's not like in the old days etc etc etc
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I think you do have to feel sorry for the ManUtd fans they have seen the club they love plunged into uncertainty and feel that the traditions they have are being stamped on.
However, It's not like they didn't get any warning! Had they been more organised and worked together they could have taken control. Sure the Coolmore mafia are businessmen, damn good ones at that, but surely they would have sold at £3 to the fans aswell. They may have had some stipulations but they were only in it for the money.
We should not wait for the Stock market announcement concerning Celtic before getting involved and marching to the car park.
We should be in control of the future, we should decided if we want to join the EPL or stay in the SPL, we should decide if we want to sell the naming rights to the stadium.
DD has invested money in the CLub, he helped to bring MoN, Since then we have seen our fortunes change, but for 1 goal we would now be 2 games from 5-in-a-row. DD has said that he is a Celtic fan and his family would not let him sell the shares.
If he is a fan (no reason to doubt) then surely he would have no problem selling his shares back to the fans, be it a consortium or trutst.
We should own the club, we would still need to put a board in place and allow them to run the club, but they would be running the club towards where the fans want it to go NOT to the most profitable destination.
I don't think fans want a monetry dividend. Our reward is on the park, winning the league, cup finals.
All the Celtic communities, web based, CSC's, Celtic trust need to come together and decide on a single way forward and then fans the world over should get behind it.
sorry I've gone a bit. Lets start by getting behind the Team and MoN for the last 3 games.
Hail Hail
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Man U were (partly) owned by 2 Irish blokes who were interested in racehorses. Now they are owned by an American who is interested in, and has experience of, running a major sports club. I don't see how this is a bad thing. I would argue that Glazer came by his money a lot more legitimately than Abramovich. Who owns Celtic is largely irrelevant. I'd rather it was owned by someone looking to make a profit on their investment as the only way to achieve this is to make us a success on the football field.
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E Tims Rumour Mill well worth a look at today. http://www.etims.net
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Paul i find it hard to believe everything is as simple as you say it is. The way I see it is that if i team wants to break away from the TV deal they need 13 other clubs to follow suit, it would hard to find so many teams!
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Couldn't agree more Phob.For the traditionalists among us this could become the last battle for the heart and soul of the club but sadly,imho, it is one that we will eventually lose unless we start the fightback now.
I agree that there needs to be a more concerted, co-ordinated approach if the fans are to gain more influence in the direction the club takes in the future. I personally would like to see the Celtic Trust lead the way in this.
I believe a share issue is now not only inevitable but imminent. This will undoubtedly further erode the shareholdings of the thousands of small shareholders (many of whom went into debt to buy their stake) who backed the club when they really needed to in 1994. The small shareholders need to unite against these moves and the Celtic trust are the organisation who should mobilise them.
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Heres a thought!!
The english dont want the "old firm" who will decide what clubs dont match up to the Glazier standard. there are changes happening all over Europe and so I see the most likely outcome to be a european super league G12 G14 G18 plus the home country champions gauranteed entry and guaranteed big money, big tv audience and big world football fan interest. This means celtic would still play in Scotland but be gauranteed more european games and therefore more money. SKY exetera would now fund the europ league rather then the Premier as that would be where the big advertising would be.
The big games now are the pan european games not the domestic games this is shown in attendances across europe.
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NE Bhoy I agree, as I post upu previuosly “The theatre of all the world is not confined to the shores of England”.
Paul67 posted up something along these lines a long while ago.
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I apologies for the incoherent nature of my last post
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An Open Letter From M glazer to Manu fans.
Dear Soccer fans,
As you all know, I've been looking to buy the United's of Manchester for a little while now.
I've also heard that some of you may not be too happy about me using, sorry, buying the club in order to reach new heights and also, that I may not be a fan. Well fear not, as i'm writing this personal letter to let you know that i'm a genuine fan of you blue devils.
I began rooting for the United's back in 1992 when our little Malcolm JR was practising those Soccer home runs out in the yard. I loved the way you turned defence into offence, and the way that Bobby Shearer used to top half it into the goal bag. Oh man, that play was hot. My son tells me that you even out-zoned your City rivals Southampton in the 4th quarter of the FA World series.
As for your current team, that Rude guy is awesome!!!! I see a profitable future at the United, with the young talent of Cristiano Rooney (man, that guy can dance!) and Peter Shilton giving us hope in defeating the evil Russian tyranny which assaults the freedom of our beloved Soccer. With the marketing potential of those Neville brothers and that Pearce dude leading the team, we can all look to acheiving our beliefs of a better future.
Especially when I add Alexei Lalas and Cobi Jones to the starting 15.
Now to you, the fans. I've been to see the United's play once before, and the respect you pay your team in silently admiring the play out on the pitch was overwhelming. Because of this, i've just purchased a new £45 million mansion in the Manchester to be close to you guys. And more good news is i'm planning to add an extra 10,000 seats through corporate boxes so more genuine blue devils can experience the play. What's with the prawn sandwiches I had to eat when I was there? Well, rest assured, it'll be super size prawn baguettes when I take charge.
I can't wait to come over to the Manchester isles, as I love the country, especially the beaches and the hot chicks. I hope you can all see my vision of this future, with new shirt sponsors (Dunkin Donuts) and new team name (The Manchester Gloom) i'm sure things are looking bright.
*Further good news for you guys is that i've just agreed a partnership deal with McDonalds, who will help in promoting the Manchester brand. This will involve re-naming the stadium to 'McTrafford' as well as an exciting launch of Manchester Gloom plastic fan toys in every happy meal. Cristiano Rooney will be the face of this campaign and during this, he will be marketed globally as Roonald McDonald.
TOUCHDOWN! Take care dudes.
Malc.
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I realy couldnt give a monkeys for Man Utd fans.
Why all the protests before they've even gave this guy a chance.
Or is this just another example of the pathetic anti-American sentiment that we have to put up with these days.
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Paul
As True Tim said Glazer would need support from thirteen other teams in the EPL. Surely if some of them negotiated their own deal they wouldn't receive as much money as they receive now from Sky. A report on the BBC website says pretty much the same.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/teams/m/man_utd/4542407.stm
Steven
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Long time reader, and occasional poster who can't seem to set up an account! Love the site, Paul!!
Football is moving on. It's the 21st century and the business men have taken over from the amateurs. Like many others here, I have some regrets about the real metamorphosis of sport into business. But it is the 21st century and we have to get with the programme.
According to Sky Sports News, Glaser currently has 72% or 73% of Man U shares, and is looking to get over the 75% hurdle. Now DD owns a few shares, I know. Could his stake be the sale that takes Glaser over the top? What would be given in return?
The future is in a European league, that much is clear. I think that transnational moves will be the first step in this, and that the principle of clubs playing somewhere other than their "home" league will be established soon. Celtic to the epl could be the groundbreaker, although I hear from a friend in Germany that Bayern Munich would like to move to Serie A, as German football is virtually bankrupt.
I really hope that the scenario Paul lays out comes to pass, or we will continue to rot up here in a poor league.
Talking of which, victory on Sunday is the biggest issue for us all right now!
GJ
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"The key question is; will each of the above clubs make more money selling TV rights when they play Wigan and Portsmouth or when they play Celtic and Rangers?"
Why do people think that Man Utd and Chelsea fans would rather watch us than some of the smaller English teams? The English public don't give a monkeys about the Old Firm and the revenue they'd make from TV wouldn't be much different with or without them. The fact still remains that the Old Firm need the Premiership far more than they need us. I guarentee if you asked most Premiership fans if they would rather be playing Portsmouth or us 90% couldn't care less.
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Are you at the news conference Paul - whits happening? - can you give us any Mole / Insider type useless titbits? Wee Tam.
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why is it then that for every testamonial it is one of us that they want to come down and fill their grounds.
Why is it that every time we play against one of them we have the media frenzy amidst the 'Battle of Britain'.
This so called English 'We don't care attitude' doesn't match with their actions and demands every time we play against them.
Why is it that many pubs and clubs here in England actively court both Celtic and Rangers fans to use their facilities. I believe that behind this attitude is actually a worry that maybe Celtic and for that matter Rangers are extremely big football entities and that the slice of the pie many English Clubs currently demand is perhaps going to diminish rather than fall as time goes by.
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I still think we're playing a guessing game on the TV deals. Cubic have played the game well forcing Glazer to pay top price on his last chance. Paul maybe Malc should should sign up to one of your courses...? But why have Cubic sold up when if a bigger TV deal was only 2 years away huge profits would only be around the corner for them? Celtics shares would rise in cost if the Golden EPL envelope pops through the G40 letter box. But surely the money Cubic would need to spend would still be a snip on what they'd make from their Man U sale. My guess is lots of talking still to be done, Glazer will have plan A & B, the latter being selling Tampa Bay if the TV deal falls through to reimburse his loans.
Football as we once knew ended a long time ago, no longer will we dance on the Love Street turf on the last minute of the season nor will Raith Rovers beat us in a final.
If Celts are to go Global, then I'm a Subway man myself......
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Rab1888. You may have a point about Anti American feelings.
However, this particular American brings an awful lot of baggage with him. Depending on who's telling the story, he has debts of up to £500,000,000. If he can achieve a 75% stakeholding in Man Utd, he can pass this debt onto the club. If he does this then the club could be used to clear his debts and not much else. Anon 09:17, does this explain the meaning of asset stripper? Your assertion that all Man Utd have by way of assets is their ground, and their players, is a massive simplification of the truth. There is sponsorship , and marketing deals worth millions as well. Malcolm Glazer IS an asset stripper, with a track record to prove it. No wonder the Man Utd fans don't want him.
I think if we look at the vast majority of the previous comments on this subject, we can all agree that though it might be nice to look at football through rose tinted spectacles, we all know that football long ceased to be a cottage industry many years ago. Money is fundamental to the business, but the game itself is maybe being pushed too far into the background. The recent events at Old Trafford have perhaps highlighted this fact.
Here's hoping the SPL title is ours before too much longer.
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"why is it then that for every testamonial it is one of us that they want to come down and fill their grounds.
Why is it that every time we play against one of them we have the media frenzy amidst the 'Battle of Britain'.
This so called English 'We don't care attitude' doesn't match with their actions and demands every time we play against them."
Because they know theres a lot of gullible fans up here who will gladly pay £200 a time for trips down south to pay tribute to OTHER TEAMS PLAYERS which most other fans wouldn't be loyal and/or stupid enough to do!
And the reason the media hype it up like a Battle Of Britain is because that's what they always do. If Hearts played Manchester City in the UEFA Cup they'd hype it up like a Battle Of Britain because it's the only way to get people down south to care about it.
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Yes I'm afraid we're terracing fodder when it comes to friendlies/testimonials in England. My hope is that with people now travelling to watch Celtic in Europe this is on the decline. At first it was impressive taking 10,000 plus now it marks us down as mugs.
Jim V
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anon 209 sorry i believe you are taking a very one sided view of this.
Growing up a Celt in England being one of the few in Rugby as a kid, to moving North and then recently moving back here i am amazed at the size of our 'support'. Many people who i remember as Man U, cov or liverpool fans as kids now openly support the Hoops, attend either one of the 2 bars in Rugby which show the Hoops games. The Rangers use their own bars as well. All the sports shops here and the major ones in Coventry sell the Hoops or Rangers stuff, and I am talking lots of it. i can buy most of the Celtic Umbro Training gear as well if I desired.
Your picture that you paint that Celtic and Rangers are not wanted here or thought of is IMO total rubbish.
there were 70+ registered Celtic fans in Rugby, for the big Europen matches, well over 130 might be squeezing into a bar for a game. I may as a Celtic fan question the reasons why all of a sudden these 'man U' fans now support the Hoops, but they did go up for games recently, they do buy the merchandise and they do turn up to see the Setanta games.
This demand is here in England for Celtic and for that matter Rangers. I do not see for that matter 100+ Chelsea or Arsenal fans meeting up in Rugby, but you would not state that the demand isn't there for them.
This isn't just the case here either. I am sure it is the same in Corby, Northampton, Cov, Manchester, London where there are 1000s of us creating this demand.
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The football world woke this morning, different.
For those who say they don't care what happens at Man. Utd, well you should because, for good or for bad, it could happen at Celtic Park. If it doesn't, so be it but the Glazer takeover present opportunties and present threats to us right now. Fact - Glazer has to destroy the existing structures (both English and European) in which MU operate in order to maximise income to manage the debt. In both cases, these decisions will affect the structures in which Celtic operate currently. And I make no assumption that any of this need be bad for Man. U or Celtic.
Who knows whether the Arsenal, Chelsea or MU fans give a monkeys about whether they play Crystal Palace or Celtic, and it isn't about terracing fodder. Glazer, Abramovitch and Dein care because they know Celtic put bums in front of tellies all over the world. We're telly fodder actually. That's all that matters to sky or whomsoever gets the rights to broadcast the European Soccer League in 2008. We're telly fodder and we should be thankful of that because that's our passport out of the SPHell.
So, we either put our collective napper in the sand or we engage.
Interesting times, indeed.
Three points on Sunday - this is our immediate priority.
McGrain
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Anon 209. think your being a bit harsh. I live just outside Manchester. Most of the Man utd fans i know have also followed the Bhoys for a very long time. They don't really see the problem about Celtic playing in th EPL. as usual, it's the suits that are the stumbling block
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I wonder has the club ever taken a survey of where the 10,000 or so we take to testamonial games come from.
From my experiences in Newcastle, Birmingham, Bolton, Manchester, liverpool and cardiff, I was always amazed at the flags from CSCs all over England.
Tickets for most of these testamonials being much easier to come by,shorter travelling distance for famillies to go without the added accomodation costs (if you have young famillies on tow) meaning that these games have attracted large numers from down here.
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As another exile living in the North of England I have to agree with recent comments that most English fans I know would be very positive about a move to the EPL for both Celtic and Rangers.
With regards to the negotiation of the new SKY deal in 2007 am I right in thinking that clubs will then be able to negotiate their own deals and will not be co-erced into a collective agreement as they are currently? If that is the case, we will be invited as we put a lot of fans in front of tellies!!
To anon 9.26 - I love prawn sandwiches and the thought of watchng a Celtic team full of top stars competing with the very best in Europe and the World in the Suzuki stadium is something I look forward to with great anticipation. Only problem is - I can't aford prawns!!!!
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I haven't had time to read through all the comments and I don't know if anyone has raised this yet but my concern would be that with the money made from selling their Man Utd shares, Desmond's pals might want to buy into Celtic. There would have to be a Celtic EGM to initiate the proposed dividend reinvestment scheme and this could be used to announce a share issue. This could completely destroy the small shareholder (=fan) base. They will be obliged to offer the shares in the same proportion to all existing shareholders but if they don't give people time and they don't offer facilities for paying up then those shares will be less likely to be taken up (last time they did the whole thing in four weeks with no facility to pay up). This would put us in a much more vulnerable position in respect of corporate interests with no feeling for Celtic being able to step in at a future date and buy up a big chunk of Celtic or even the whole club. We need to push Celtic to make any share issue as easy as possible for fans to buy into.
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Hi Paul. We're living in very interesting times. Change seems to be the only certainty. I have a small point regarding a move to the EPL. Let's look at this from a business point of view. How big is the market? Adding Scotland to the EPL will increase the revenue potential by something like 10% purely taking consideration of the population. Now if you are looking to increase your revenue, a 10% step up is not an insignificant amount. It is certainly more achievable than doubling or more the market potential.
It might be argued that not all of the population will follow football or change allegiances to clubs in the top flight of some new British League. However to advertisers and TV execs. this is still a 10% increase in people getting your message, having your brand in punters faces. It simplifies the need of sponsoring two teams (economies to gain here, supporting several teams didn't work for NTL).
This may be a short term gain that Glazers backers (Hope it's not the RBS, or my overdraft charges are set to increase) might accept as part of his business plan.
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Does anyone know how many subscribers Setanta have to SPL TV in England as this is the real indicator of whether the Premiership clubs would be interested in the Old Firm?
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See our favourite newspaper is at it again on the eve of a massive match. Balde to leave for nothing?The press and the media in general have excelled themselves in recent weeks (none more than the bbc"s dougie(a clyde fan)donnelly.Im sick of this paranoid tag,in fact im starting to get a bit paranoid about it. timmy7,couldnt agree more with your earlier post.Ive been following us everywhere for a long time now and while I appreciate the fact that things move on I toO am a bit of a traditionalist and feel we should champion our own country before hopefuly launching an assault on Europe. The thought of the Wigans and Derbys of this world going to ruin because of tv deals and the like does not sit comfortable with me. Got my tickets for Sunday so Good Luck Everyone,lETS DO IT
Mark-F
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Ye the whole Balde story in the Record doesn't even make any sense. It says Celtic agreed to give him a release clause so they could have him for the title run-in. But he would have been contracted for the run in anyway. Any contract he signed at Man City or Boro wouldn't have taken him there til next year anyway so the whole story doesn't make any logical sense whatsoever.
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McGrain in Spain - i'm glad someone can sensibly summarise the possible implications the Glazer deal could have on us, as there are a few anonymous posters on here who think the goalkeeper can still pick up passbacks.
Anyways Paul - i'm reliably imformed that Glazer's vision in terms of negotiating indivdual TV dosh is already happening in La Liga. The trend over there is that you've got Barcelona, Real Madrid then the rest way behind. Can you give us a bit of insight into how that transpired in Spain.
I seem to remember that Juventus attempted similar moves in Serie A, but there was revolt across Italy - not sure whether this went through eventually?
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When JP McManus played a round of golf with Tiger Woods,who was his ball boy,sorry I mean caddie?
DD himself.
At least we now know who wears the trousers in this little bit of business venture that may well be coming up soon."Yes JP,I did what you said,the shares are down,You can come up now"
A puzzle for you...
Multiple choice answers
Which Major shareholder has never seen their team play at home?
Which Major shareholder has only seen their team play once away from home?
Which Major shareholder has only seen the team a hand full of times?
Which Major share holder is too busy living it up in Barbados & The Bahamas on the future earnings to care?
A) Magnier
B)Dermot Desmond
C)JP McManus
D)All of the above
Ever here of the story of the bank robber going back to rob the same bank the following day as they thought it would be the last place they would look and got away with it again.
Sounds like the ski masks are going on,Hold on to your season tickets and share bonds real tight as we are going to be robbed again,right in front of our eyes.
I want my cake and eat it,I want money to be invested in the Club AND I don't want the club to be sold from under us again,with them leaving with their pockets overflowing with Celtic money.
We can only hope that they invest and invest heavily in the future.
NickNackPaddy
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Question asked: "Which Major shareholder has never seen their team play at home?" The answer can't be Dermot Desmond as he was at the last Aberdeen game!
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Bolton boy exactly my point you ca |
