 Tuesday, May 24, 2005
Long term strategic problems caused the collapse
Regular readers will know that I tend to get a bit sensitive when our club are accused of not spending enough money. Now in our sixth consecutive year of returning a loss, I believe that simply spending more and running up ever higher losses has not been an option.
The failure to off-load players before they decline has also been levelled at the club. Many players currently at Celtic are trapped in a ‘negative equity’ trap. Their contracts were signed when the market was higher back in 2001 or 2002. Few if any would be able to get a similar contract from another employer.
Sutton, Thompson, Balde and Hartson have had their contracts renewed in the last year, though none would have been out of contract this season. Only Balde attracted any interest last summer, and even that was only a £1million bid.
Off-loading players has not been an option.
Knowing the limited budget available, last summer O’Neill went looking for loan and free transfers. He failed in attempts to sign Barsturk and Saviola, as well as a number of other players before settling on Camara and Juninho.
On 31st August Martin O’Neill knew as well as anyone that the squad had not been enhanced as he had hoped.
Right or wrong, the decision was made after the Seville season returned a record loss that spending more money was not a long term answer to any question.
Even then the club had few saleable assets, perhaps only Larsson and Petrov would have realised any significant sums, and few of us would want Celtic to be selling its best players.
An alignment of circumstances got us. Buying at the top of the market tied down the underperforming players. Unprecedented league success last season masked the fragility at the heart of the team. We aimed high in the transfer market last summer and failed one at a time resulting in the unseemly scrambling on 31st August.
The problems were foreseeable, but available options were limited.
Money has been at the root of our decline this season. As I have said often enough, our financial circumstances will change this summer.
I am beginning to look forward with some confidence.
191 Comments:
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After 5 hours of being a gibbering wreck after the final whistle and coming home to find a red hand of Ulster in my front garden and also today a paper open on my desk of the huns celebrating, very dignified , finally started to get some clarity into my head and started looking for answers.
And the blame was laid squarely with the management and the players. Both have under performed for the whole of this season, thus us being witness to some of the worst celtic performances for years.
They have let us down badly. They have no one else to blame barred themselves as how many chances during a season do you need to hold onto a lead and even a 7 point lead.
This could set us back years if the board make the wrong decisions.
The quicker we move on the better, roll on the cup final, then lets get back to playing the celtic way.
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That's the best thing we can do Paul, look forward with confidence.
We have got a good platform to build on, some players may be sold and others maybe let go, but we should have cash to buy big and that in itself will be exciting.
After Stan Petrovs comments i think it must be likely that MON will be leaving, get ready for heavy hearts again, similar to what we have felt in the past couple of days (it seems longer!)
As i said earlier, lets give this team the best send off we can and thank them for some truly great moments.
I would like to see McGeady involved, his movement with Bellamy maybe what we have been lacking in the past couple of games and may be one of the things MON may be thinkng could have given us a different outcome.
What's done is done and we have to look forward.
Some interesting articles about Glazers takeover at Man U, maybe it is time for you to use your influence Paul and let us all have a different perspective for the next few days?
Tony, Latvia
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The 3 minutes on Sunday summed up our season.
The writing was on the wall.
Mind you it could be worse, just ask Glasgow Dave. After arranging to meet to watch the game in a boozer in London we tried to drown our sorrows. To make matters worse Dave fell asleep on the way home to Guildford and ended up on the South Coat in Portsmouth with no way of getting home!
As we sang on Sunday "Walk with me oh my Lord, through the darkest nights and brightest days, be at my side oh Lord, hold my hand and guide me on my way"
Hail Hail
Martybhoy
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Of the players who have played regularly for the first XI this season the only ones I’d like to see at the club next season are :
Marshall – not sure about being first choice but has time on his side.
Petrov – to be played in central midfield.
Sutton – if still mobile enough then should be played up front. If not then maybe given a chance at centre half. Though I do have concerns over his fitness and would not expect him to play 40 plus games.
Beattie – to be given a chance though from what I’ve seen so far not a player I’d expect to make an impact in next season’s CL.
McGeady – given a chance to play in the middle where he can do some damage, he’s no winger. Again not an automatic ideal first choice as yet.
Varga – might be better with a different partner than Balde (who I expect to leave). At least should be kept as cover.
And that’s about it I’m afraid. The rest I’d let go for a variety of reasons; not good enough, passed their best, would cost too much in salary, could be sold to raise money for younger players.
It was said we needed 6 players last close season and as we effectively signed no-one so we still need those 6 plus another 8. I know 14 players sounds a hell of a lot and it is but I genuinely feel this is the number we need.
JimV
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Finally starting to come to terms with sundays disaster.
88 minutes on the effin clock.....
Sorry, no more negativity.
Lets get right up for this on saturday.
It'll be next season before you know it and all the pain and suffering will be a distant memory.
C'mon the Hoops
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OK, so we are entering a new phase at Celtic.
I and many other supporters would expect
when the official resignation of MON occurs,
the Board should detail it's ambition for
this great club. I would hope they could
set some targets as to our performance over
the next few years, if they have ambition that
is.
Please inform us, any strategic planning ?
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Paul, I'm glad you have introduced another post, concentrating on the way ahead, but I would just like to pass a comment on the phenomenon that has taken place on this site over the last 3 days.
We came here to post in our hundreds, to exorcise our pain and to console each other, and also to pay our respects to a team who had given us so much but in the end had nothing left to give. All season we witnessed our loved ones in terminal decline but hoped that they could see out one more campaign, but in vain.
What took place on this site was a massive Wake, where we were both consolers and the consoled and we all felt a little better from sharing our words and thoughts with each other, giving us courage to move on.
On the subject of moving on,IF MON leaves, then whoever comes in should be given the same opportunity to establish himself as anyone else. He should not be prejudged, as we claim not to be prejudiced against anyone. Should GS be nominated, some people may be pleasantly surprised as he is a highly intelligent, articulate and passionate man, who doesn't suffer fools or chairmen gladly and is a brilliant reader of the game. Remind you of anyone.
Paul this site is now a legend, keep it up.
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TTT, I beg to differ about GS. I hope MON does what is best for himself and his family whatever happens, but that individual is not IMO "a highly intelligent, articulate and passionate man, who doesn't suffer fools or chairmen gladly and is a brilliant reader of the game"
He was a disaster here at Coventry, buying this club virtually into administration in much the same manner as O'Leary did at leeds and one season of reaching the now much maligned FA cup Final, with the saints, does not count as success either.
The man is an excellent TV pundit, I enjoy listening to his views but what he has achieved as a manager while spending a lot of money are not impressive. The legacies he has left are not pleasent either two teams relegated with squads he did much to put together.
I hope MON can stay and perhaps rebuild, whether he feels he can or not is another matter but do not believe this nonsense that GS is a respected manager. Those people achieve trophies or sustained success. GS has not!
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Paul,
Whilst I cannot disagree with the background as to why there was an inabilty to spend any money on transfers. It still doesn't address other issues.
Transfer Policy
Again- why have we never made any "Bosman" signings, even AC Milan (Jaap Stam I believe)have went down this road.
I have no problem with the Plc telling us there is little or no money to spend and you, to your credit, have explained why, but surely that is all the more reason to spend wisely ?
If as you say , money becomes available, then whoever is the manager , I hope spends it wisely.
If the manager get's say 8 million to spend then surely 5 or 6 new names (say 3 or 4 Bosmans) could be purchased . Add a mix of McGeady (a must start for next season) , Beattie and 3 or 4 youngsters along with Sutton, Thompson (assuming his form has improved) and Petrov then I truly believe we should be able to win the league next year.
Style Of Play
Ball on the ground,pass out of defence,to mobile midfielders and onto speedy strikers. This ugly brand of football in the end has not served Celtic well .
The Future
I am beginning to feel a bit better today. I spoke to my friend last night (season ticket holder at Celtic Park) who is recovering from a life threatening illness . He was literally dying (he was given the last rites) but has made a remarkable recovery he, like me, is in his mid thirties.
He has a family that so easily could have been robbed of a father, husband and brother.
He is not his old self just yet, but he is getting there.
He has asked me over to his house on Saturday to watch the final (we didn't get tickets -he couldn't go anyway) . Anyway he is so upbeat about his life , he knows he is lucky , he is the only Celtic fan I know who isn't suicidal !
He knows that there will be bad days , but there will also be good days too . His recovery may take along time but he'll get there.
He plans to be back at the Nike Dome (?) for the start of next season !
So remember folks ,yes we are down, but we are not out.
We have a long journey in front of us let's take the first step on Saturday.
C'mon the hoops !
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From failure can come great success - lets hope the people in charge can show the necessary foresight and good judgement.
as you stated so accurately Paul, the only sad point is that the memory of this team is tainted - the cup final is therefore crucial - to put a celebratory full stop on this part of the celtic story.
the importance of this great site in helping to rouse the celtic community for saturday's game cannot be underestimated.
hail hail
stevenmac, girona
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Sorry to re-post the following, but lest it be missed at the end of the last thread I thought I'd put it in again on the new thread.
Also, I wasn't suicidal San Miguel. Having lost my Mum to cancer (at 62) last year, I have adopted the "it's only a game" attitude as a form of denial!
Previous post:
"A bit of perspective. We are now at the point where Celtic need to rebuild the team. But unlike 5 years ago when MON had to rebuild a team that had lost the league by 21 POINTS, we are now rebuilding from a position where we lost the title 2 MINUTES from the end of the LAST GAME. Hardly a team in utter crisis and trailing light years behind it's main (only) rival. Compared to this season, if we turn one defeat v Rangers into just a draw, that would make all the difference.
Paul67, I notice that there have been other posters looking for Cup Final tickets (as well as myself). If you know of anyone, or if anyone on here with a ticket really doesn't want to go, then could you put them in touch please? Perhaps a thread for Cup Final ticket exchange...
Some of us really can't get hold of tickets (short of being shafted by chancers on eBay) and would love the opportunity to show that we really are TGFITW on Saturday.
Thanks."
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I cant believe how far away the cup final is...its killing me.
I just hope that if what is reported in the fish wrappers is true then Martin told the board months ago and they have been on the case since christmas, and by this time next week we have a new boss.
These will be fragile times once again. Many a false headline, as Keevins and co go into overdrive. It is imperative that the club makes the correct choices in the close season.
However , for all the moaning about the team/investment/signings/ etc. no one can disagree that we have had 5 great years - the most successful Ive ever seen (I wasnt here for 9-in-a-row). We have been 3 or 4 goals away from 5-in-a-row, had a few doubles, seen a UEFA final and had the drama of Champs League football. Isnt that what its all is about?
There is no doubts that Seville was the high water mark, and it may be another (Henrik help us!) 30+ years before we see this kind of sustained success again. I doubt it but you never know.
Big changes on and off the pitch and Im already looking forward to a new team and some joker pre season matches on channel5.
Mon e Hoops.
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I am looking forward to the cup final on Saturday as a way to exorcise the memory of Sunday's collapse. While the team needs surgery during the close season I don't believe we are in as bad a position as some of you believe.
As far as the whole 'will he or wont he' debate surrounding MON's future, I can't believe we are allowing ourselves to be manipulated to such an extent by the press. The facts of this story are available to anyone who cares to look beyond the hysterical headlines. In reality, every story since last Friday has MON's comments to Chic Young as it's genesis and these comments were entirely open to interpretation. Since MON did not state unequivocally that he was staying then he is leaving. QED? Since he said he would not be joining another club then he is taking time off to look after his wife. QED? The actual comment was along the lines of there being as much chance of MON being at the club as not and, while I admit this might have been an ill-advised comment, it isn't entirely atypical of the types of comment MON is always making to the media. Until I hear something official from the club (or Paul comes up trumps) I'm devoting my attention to supporting our team.
Paul, I sincerely hope you are correct concering the funds available to MON for transfers during the summer. To those of you dissecting the current team in a knee-jerk reaction to Sunday - while I understand the reaction, please wait until the dust settles.
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Paul,
Once again you hit the nail on the head. To me, the big question is: can we offload the underachievers. I doubt it very much. They are not going to get the money they are on at Parkhead.
Here's hoping the manager, whoever he is, can sort things out and quickly. (I suppose it's the disappointment of throwing the League away but I can't get interested in the Final-maybe I'm worried we might lose that too!!) The planning for next season has to be underway now!!
Parkheadcumsalford
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In defence on both GS and DO'L, it was their respective chairmen writing the cheques. As a manger you identify targets and ask the board to sanction the offer.
However as others have said, MON is still the manager and we have a cup final to prepare for. Speculation on his future is for after that game. The media set the agenda for the weekend and this week, as we all knew they would.
Tom the Tim, well said. Constant reading of yesterdays thread was the main thing that kept me going, and by the looks of things hundreds of others. This is what makes our club special. This is what being part of 'The Celtic Family' is all about. The overall feeling i got from the vast majority of yesterdays posts was that we can take this on the chin, pick ourselves up and move on. Yes it hurts, but I agree with NegAnon (a rarety, I know), let's use that hurt on every one of the teams who's supporters delight in seeing us suffer. They seem to get more enjoyment from this than seeing their own teams do well. Probably because they all really support Rangers.
The rebuilding starts on Saturday. We Shall Not Be Moved.
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Sunday is history – full stop!
We need to look upwards and onwards, learn from the mistakes and ensure that they don’t happen again – can’t wait till Saturday – time to raise the roof.
Faithful through and through!
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for those looking for cup final tkts. if you'd been at the semi like the rest of us, yu'd have got one
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Just a wee thought crossed my mind re. Gordon Strachan.
Does anybody think, that MON was maybe asked by the Board for his input as to who should suceed him.
I know these things happen in industry when someone resigns, so it maybe that Martin has recommended him.
They may have worked together on pundit panels for the BBC, at big tournaments.
I feel if he has been telling the Board that it was likely he was going, for some time, the Board, would in turn be asking him for names to succeed him.
I'm neutral on Strachan, and was at Celtic Park the day the guy got out of the Jungle to stiffen him, but if he comes, I'll give him my total backing, as he will be the main man.
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MON has been a great manager for us & his players have done us proud. Both have now peaked and we are in nervous times, however if you're a fan then get behind the team/club regardless of the frustration we're all feeling. Possible replacements:
1. Strachan - relegated Coventry
2. Hiddink - relegated Real Betis
3. Burns - failed before
4. Mowbray - ?
5. Steve Clarke - ?
5. Roy Aitken - ?
Tony Mallaghan's is heavier than Santa's
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On the subject of losing the dead-wood and under-achievers, and the problem that some of these are still under contract...
There are plenty of cases in business (in the REAL world!) where loss making companies make redundancies and/or ask staff to take a pay cut to safeguard the positions of their colleagues. Often this is done by redefining roles and requiring staff to effectively re-apply for their own jobs - albeit with revised contracts.
Couldn't Celtic do something like this?
I know that they have in the recent past laid off a number of "back office staff", in order to reduce their costs, and am aware that this reduction in personnel has probably led to a deterioration in the standard of customer service provided to the customers (fans) by (e.g.) the merchandising and ticketing divisions. But how many back office staff do they have to shed in order to save the same amount as they would have done by making the likes of Fernandez or Sylla redundant? Why disrupt the lives of dozens of ordinary people when they could lose just one player, who could probably walk into another "job" on £100K+ a year?
Surely they can "re-engineer" the business, and the contracts of their highest paid employees (the players) to bring their salaries to a more realistic level, reflective of the CURRENT market, not the peak of 5 years ago? Obviously some of the younger key players, who will form the core of the team for the next few years (e.g. Petrov, McGeady) can be offered packages to reflect their value to the team, as they will potentially attract higher offers from elsewhere, but the "squad players" would then be on a more realistic level.
But why would the players agree to this?
Well, we put it to them that by reducing our oppressively high payroll this frees up funds to further strengthen the team and bring in other top players to play alongside them. And it enhances the team's chances of success - and surely every professional player wants to be a winner.
Would they rather end up like the team of the 90's, as perennial also-rans, or be winning the league and enjoying (potentially) ever improving Euro success year on year?
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11:42am Anonymous...
Many of us live in England, and due to family and work commitments, and financial constraints, we are unable to get to more than a small handful of games each season. Hence it is very difficult to get hold of tickets for the big games.
I'd love to have been able to get to the semi final, and to any of the CL games, but unfortunately I couldn't. Hence my request for a Cup Final ticket on here.
When I lived in Stirling I used to attend every home game, and some of the aways, with the CSC.
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I am starting to feel a little more philosophical over Sunday.
The challenges over the summer have not changed due to the result, it has merely emphasized that we cannot hide from them
The speculation over MON and the need to overhaul the squad would all have to be addressed no matter the result.
I would hope the board, given their financial interest if not there love for Celtic, would have prepared a contingency for the above.
It is at this time that we will see the metal of our board. It is time for the board to get out some positive PR, to reveal the master plan.
I have been and remain a defender of our board. It is at this time, they must prove that this faith has not been misplaced.
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Tuesday at last and here in the Gorbals, if not exactly sunny, at least it is starting to look fairly bright and dry.
I’m not sure exactly what I will do today, but I definitely need to stay away from any more Guinness as the horrors of Sunday’s events were magnified a thousand times by the panic stricken paranoia and neurosis of alcoholic cold turkey.
Big T and James have just passed by my front window, probably heading up the shops for a paper. I bought myself a paper this morning, although I did take the coward’s way out since it was the Scottish sport avoiding Guardian. Still as someone somewhere once said, ‘even the longest journey starts with the first step.’
And that is exactly what I am going to do, take that first step.
My favourite walk along Ballater Street, down along the Clyde at Glasgow Green football club, back up onto the Dunn Street and cut across onto Nuneaton Street.
Just around the street’s elbow, there it is!
Paradise! Celtic Park!
This holy ground of ours is a bit special you know. It has a personality of its own. It beckons and welcomes you almost waving to you to come in and feel good. It smiles at me as each step takes me closer and it reminds me of through it’s own memories of the many great and wondrous games and players who have adorned that glorious rectangle of God’s sod.
My hearty will beat slightly faster as I near that monument to football history, and I will again hear in my mind’s ear the call of the crowds, the songs of the faithful, the roar of anticipation, and the crescendo of triumph that have been such a great companion and comfort through more years than I care to remember.
I will think of Willie Maley, Jimmy Quinn, Johnny Thompson, Jimmy McGrory, Patsy Tully, Jock Stein, Billy McNeil, Jimmy Johnstone, Paul McStay, Henrik Larsson, and oh so many other legendary players of the past. But more than that I will think of those to come, perhaps the Aiden McGeadys, Ross Wallaces, Scott Cuthberts, or Rocco Quinns.
I can see them next season or the season after that turning, twisting, passing and playing in that archetypal Celtic Way. I can see them playing for the children of today, tomorrow, and for generations still to come, when I will be sitting (hopefully) on a cloud above playing my harp and drinking a heavenly Guinness.
‘Silly old git’ I hear you say!
For writing it down? Aye your probably right, but that doesn’t mean I’m wrong.
So I’m off now and guess what, the sun has come out!
It’s great to be a Tim
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Paul,
Just a thought (God forbid the redtops are right) if Martin O'Neill does leave the club - would it be possible for you to create a topic where fans could leave their tributes to the man? He has brought us out of the wilderness of European football and restored the credibility and respect of our great Club and extended Celtic family.
We could also leave our support and thoughts for him and his family in what must be a traumatic time.
Like you, I feel that we can not underestimate the contribution the man has brought to the club especially considering the unprecedented, dire financial climate in the football industry.
Yours in Celtic,
ASL88
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cheers for that Martybhoy.
It was me, not glasgow dave
Maybe i shouldnt have had those tequilas after all
Pity about the game, but the company and banter was good
We famously had the 'No Excuses' T-shirts. Well there were no excuses after this dire performance at Fir Park.
Just read on bbc that Martin is all set to go on Wednesday. Surely this cant be a wind up by the BBC. The celtic job requires 100% commitment.
If Martin cant give 100% due to his wife's ill health, then he shouldnt be in the job at all.
Im hoping all this strachan talk is nonsense as im not too happy about him being given the transfer budget if he is employed
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I used to enjoy your intersting and intelligent articles Paul but ,I have to say, this website is turning into an online version of Prada.
More and more, you are starting to sound like an apoligest for the boards "prudent" policies.
You are beginning to look forward with some confidence? Do me a favour!!! We are about to lose our manager, we have allowed the huns off the hook to come out of one the most turbulant periods in their history with 2 league titles in five years, we have an ageing team of thirtysomethings that badly needs rebuilding and are looking at a second rate manager like Strachan coming in to sort out this mess.
The board has presided over this debacle over the last number of years, particularly since Seville. That should have been our springboard to further success but the board did NOTHING. The writing was on the wall about the current set up a long time ago and many could see Sundays disaster coming for a long time.
This "prudent" board has allowed the opportunity of sustained success in Scotland and Europe slip through their short sighted fingers and we are now ,somehow, looking at the possibility of the huns have a period of success while we have to look at a huge rebuilding job.
SHAME ON THEM.
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Yeah the manager will resign tomorrow along with JR and SR. The cup final will now be a proper farewell party.
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Anon at 11.42
How do you know those asking for a cup final ticket weren't at the semi?
I was at the semi final, when according to Celtic they had 21,000 tickets, and I think justifiably expected a semi final ticket, especially when Celtic announced that their allocation was 25,000.
However I did not get one, neither did my father and I take great resentment to you comment.
This is the 3rd occasion when myself and my father have been at a semi final and have then not got a final ticket, wasn't in the best of moods already today but reading your comment has put me in a right stinker
JhonD
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Sorry about the negative post coming up but this is just how I feel.
Hats off to everyone who can put the weekend behind them, I'm still hurting over it, and still having difficulty in coming to terms with it, ffs we couldn't hold on to a lead against an under strength Motherwell team with 3 mins left on the clock, we gave them the league and have now made eck a tactical and managerial genius !
Paul you make a valid point about the club losing money, but who's to blame for that? Us ? From where I sit all I do each year is put in more cash, season book, cup tickets, CL tickets, new strips, dvd's, clothing, windfall and food to name but a few, each year it costs us the supporters more and more to support our club.
If we continually increase the clubs turnover year after year, what more can we do, maybe the people running the club should take a look at themselves.
Mon has brought much credability back to us I'll agree that and in the beginning has worked wonders, but I'm sorry the weekend was a joke, I just feel he's to set in his ways and his inability to change or even learn from mistakes cost us dear.
Seville was a long time ago and we've been going down hill since and we're meant to accept that becasue the money men say so.
Many people say Seville was their greatest moment supporting Celtic, being at the game and knowing how I felt on the trudge back to the bus, I'd totally agree with you all if we had won the cup we didn't, my greatest memory was Wim Jansen ending Rangers Domination of Rangers in Scotland, dancing on the parkhead turf will live with me for ever and the feeling of finally winnning the league again.
Looking forward to the Cup Final, MON does deserve, and will get a great send off, but I for one will not be going home and crying at his departure.
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Fair enough we have limited resources but mistakes were made.
MON's eye has been off the ball for VERY understandable reasons....we looked like a dying team out there on Sunday.
You just wish we were able to build on the team after Seville, but we can't make money appear from nowhere...Paul's right we have actually spent more than we had. There aint a big reserve of money sitting anywhere that we have been saving up.
Time for a fresh start indeed. I'll take Gordon Strachan, though I'd actually like David Moyes more.
We shall see.
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12.20 anon. you claim the board did nothing.
What would you have them do? What is your plan? How is it Funded?
Mud slinging is easy. ideas are the difficult part. More than happy to listen to people criticise the board but please outline an alternative credible approach.
I have defended the board as I have yet to hear the alternative approach. I am willing to listen and prepared to be convinced.
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Paul,
Here's my tuppence worth on the incoming manager.
It's inconceivable to me how the decision makers can band around possible candidates and conclude GS is the best choice.Is that progress?
If any of the top five clubs in the premiership became managerless MON would be linked to all those posts.Would GS?
How can he progress the club?
Progress would be success in the CL.Lets face it,its financially rewarding if you gain moderate success ie get to the 2nd group stage.
Thats not a unrealistic goal to set ourselves.
Therefore why don't we insist that the next coach must have achieved that in his career.
Can i suggest Paul le Guen,formely of Lyon.He's available,no compensation required!
I will get behind whoever comes in but,to me,GS in a appointment that lacks ambition,shows no imagination and will leave the fans deflated.
Celtic is a big club bound in chains never to fully realise its potential because of a timid,unambitous board who are scared to take a business risk.
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"If we don't score 2 goals in the first 20 minutes then we're beat...." Dinnae be daft I told my mate.....the rest is history.
I now think O'Neil has been working his 12 month notice. I apologise for speculating but I really need to find answers that contributed to Sunday. Ability should not be a factor in a game where one team is playing for everything & one team are playing for nothing. M'Well should have been bullied into submission, so what if it had taken a few yellow cards or maybe even a red, at least we would have known how much the players wanted it.
Rewind to last summer, this is where I think O'Neil asked for time off & Brian Quinn refused. O'Neil may then have argued that his coaching team could handle things & sent them to the USA in charge. When things didn't go well in the opening games O'Neil was told to get out there. This is where his relationship with Quinn finished & notice served.
I hope the board have acted sensibly in finding a replacement, there is money to be spent & spent wisely it must be.
Meanwhile there's a cup final to play for & an awful lot of pride at stake. Winning the cup will in no way make up for Sunday but I want to know that those players who wear the shirt I love are hurting. I know some will be, some won't. Some I hope will never pull on the hoops again, but I'm luckey, I have a ticket & many through financial, geographical or health won't be at Hampden. So I will cheer on 11 Celtic jerseys for 90 minutes regardless of who is wearing them.
On Saturday we should celebrate being Celtic fans & stand srong & proud. Maybe we should also make a donantion to cancer charities as a way of saying thank-you to Martin.
SWBhoy.
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Tuesday night over here in Sydney, and still feeling sick to the pits of my stomach, i have been here for nearly three years and never missed one game, on celtic live,believe me its been a struggle games kicking off at midnight,and midweek games 4.45 in the morning.But thats a passion that never dies in us all,We will return stronger and better ,and live to fight another day, thats the Celtic way. So lets have a great day on Saturday, and give Martin all the applauds he deserves.Hold your head up high.On a funny side My wife is glad that the season is over , i wake her up with all the shouting at the screen during the night.HAIL HAIL.
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Tom the Tim, thanks for your kind support.
BigChipSuk / Sam Miguel, thanks for your perspective. Sorry, I have not seen a ticket going spare.
Point noted ASL88.
Would the nameless anon from 12.20 like to tell us how much money he would have liked to see Celtic lose these last five years?
Just how close to insolvency would you like us to go? Maybe within £8million?
Have you actually checked how close we were at the end of last season and extrapolated to where we can expect to be this season?
Or have you just picked an emotive point without checking any figures and then accused me of being an apologist?
I have spent a lot of time looking at our accounts and I am willing to bet that you have not. I am willing to bet that this is the first time you have been asked how close to insolvency you think Celtic should go.
Hard question I know, but when you are losing money at the rate Celtic have been lately this is the question you need to answer before authorising any spend.
I expect the cumulative loss for these past 5 years to reach around £40million. It is only when we face the fact that this is not prudence that we will begin to understand the problems faced by our club.
Not to nit-pick, but I believe Prada is a ladies fashion label, not the late Soviet newspaper Pravda.
If you point is valid, come back and tell us all how low we should have run the balance sheet down without feeling the need to have a pop at me.
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Rob 71 i am not wishing to get into an arguement about the merits of GS or DO'L, but as managers have either of them won anything.
One cup final for Millions of pounds spent, lets not beat around the bush either here.
I hope we win the CUP, set out a long term strategic plan for the development for the squad development and start to move forward. I just want the best available person doing the job. I do not want our Club to sign someone in any position or as manager just because they are Scottish or Irish when there are better candidates available.
PS. Paul is it true that we have been overlooked for entry into the G14 because our entry would be unfair without Rangers, yet both chelsea and Newcastle have been accepted??
If so yet again we are perhaps held back by the constraints put upon us by unfair competition rules. How can we help to shape our futureif we are not at the top table helping to make decisions?
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I have to say I'm a bit perplexed at the stick Strachan has been taking in some quarters.
The difference between Strachan now and MON 5 years ago is a Worthington Cup.
I believe Strachan could do a good job, given the time and patience that was readily granted to MON.
MON worked a miracle in his first season here - no other word for it. Not bad considering all we were looking for was a wee bit of pride.
If Strachan does indeed get the job, I sincerely hope he will be afforded the full support of the fans. If we can't be a collective, then what's the point?
PW
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Well it looks like MON is on his way, Petrov quoted that he 'understands the reasons' and the official website talking about MON not confirming a sabbatical.
If it wasn't true, I would really have expected a denial by now.
EK Gerry, I also remember Strachan getting smacked the season after, for scoring a penalty against us in the first few minutes at Pittodrie.
If Strachan is the new man, my concerns are how the money will be spent.
I am with you Paul, we will spend but the rebuilding would be difficult even with someone who has been in the job for 5 years.
It is a different prospect having someone who doesn't know the board, have an intimate knowledge of how the club works or indeed the necessary standing to attract the type of players we may need.
One thing which may go in his favour, I know he has been travelling all over Europe to investigate coaching methods and how other successful clubs are run. He's not just been doing TV work since he left Southampton.
I hope my nervousness is unfounded, but if MON does leave, his successor will need our full support and some of our patience from day 1.
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Paul67 - looks like etims having a dig at you!
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Paul Le Guen is my choice too. A tacticaly sound manager with a good knowledge of european football. An up and coming coach who has an excellent track record of buying top quality players for reasonable money.
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Leicester City MON record having spent not very much.
2000-01 Division One play-off champions
1999-00 League Cup Winners
1998-99 League Cup runners-up
1996-97 League Cup Winners
two runs in UEFA cup as well, think they made it to quarter finals when they got knocked out away from home by Atletico Madrid.
Er strachan one FA cup Final lost having spent shed loads more money than MON ever had and Coventry City Relegated. Played one tie lost one tie in European Competition as a manager. There is no comparison in their relative successes as managers.
One has been a success at 2 clubs, the other hasn't and walked away from a job too stressful at Southampton.
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Like many others reading these messages have helped me get over the last 3 days.
My first match was Fir park in 1966 when Lennox clinched the league in a 1 - 0 victory. I thought sunday was heading for a nervous repeat, but no.
Nothing in the 39 years that have elapsed since my first match prepared me for the collapse on Sunday. Milan in 1970 was hard to take. The departure of Jock Stein was inevitable given results but still hard to take. Seville wasn't really a major disappointment to me because 95% of it was about the experience of us being there and participating.
It's now time to get real. MON is going (probably announced tomorrow). He and the board have been preparing us for this over the last couple of weeks. I suspect they believed it would be on a high not the low we are currently experiencing. Winning the Cup will be nice if it happens but it will not erase the pain of Sunday for you, me or MON for that matter.
You who automatically dismiss the prospect of strachan seem to assume that there is a queque of top managers just waiting in the wings to be called.
We need to recognise that we have effectively slipped back to 2000, MON's first year in charge. We need someone (whoever that may be) to spend wisely and give back domestic supremacy never mind this tosh about taking us to the next level.
The next manager will also have a difficult job because of the raised expectations about our youngsters. He will have to do the weeding out because if you are honest that with the exception of McGeady (and his lack of pace is worrying) and possibly Kennedy if he can return to full fitness, the remainder are not good enough and will not make it.
Let's hold together now and stride positively into the future. We need to back the new manager whoever he is and remember that we support Celtic Football CLUB - not an individual or group of individuals but an institution that will rise anf fall as one.
Apologies for rambling.
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Not something I'd normally have bothered doing, but it irked me sufficiently to make me act...
I have just emailed Setanta as follows in response to their article (attached to the end of my email). Feel free to do likewise.
MY EMAIL:
"Dear Sirs,
I would like to complain about your article (copied below) about the present situation at Celtic with regard to Martin O’Neill’s tenure as manager of the football club. I believe that this is a blatant case of mischief making on your part, and is irresponsible reporting with the fans and players trying to pick themselves up from the massive disappointment after Sunday’s result in time for the Scottish Cup Final this coming weekend.
Whoever wrote this misleading piece didn’t even have the guts to put their name to it. Not surprising since it is reported as though it is corroborated fact, when indeed it is totally unsubstantiated speculation. I use www.newsnow.co.uk as my first point of reference when following Celtic news, a site which monitors over 20,000 news sources every 5 minutes. I find it rather strange that you claim that “Martin O’Neill will quit Celtic on Wednesday, according to reports today”, when yours is the ONLY report that has appeared with this claim. Surely you can understand that Mr O’Neill would not relinquish his position at the helm right in the middle of the preparations for the Cup Final, and his team’s only chance to regain some pride and win a trophy this season. So why deliberately print such a controversial and unsettling piece without substantiating your claims.
Furthermore, given that it is common knowledge that the primary reason for the speculation over Mr O’Neill’s future is the health of his wife, and his desire to spend more time caring for her at this difficult and traumatic time in their lives, why would you then suggest that John Robertson and Steve Walford are also about to quit? If you check the reports on NewsNow you will in fact see references to the likelihood that these two will in fact take over the reins with Mr O’Neill in a consultancy role. Yet you don’t seek to report this angle as it would not be sufficiently unsettling on Celtic Football Club for your own disruptive agenda.
I expect you to either publish your sources or print a retraction and apology.
Yours disappointedly,
Damian Scott"
THE OFFENDING ARTICLE:
"O'Neill to quit on Wednesday
Celtic manager Martin O'Neill will quit Celtic on Wednesday, according to reports today. The Bhoys boss has been silent on his future, but it is widely accepted that he will be stepping down in order to spend more time with his wife, who is seriously ill.
O'Neill's assistants John Robertson and Steve Walford are also set to leave the Glasgow side, while former Southampton Gordon Strachan is the favourite to land the job for next season after his break from management.
Celtic midfielder Stilian Petrov has already accepted O'Neill's likely decision telling Celtic TV: "It will be hard to see him go but everyone knows the reason."
"The gaffer has been great in his time with Celtic, with us and with the fans.
"I hope everything goes well for him and his family but, at the end of the day, it is his decision and he knows what is best."
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I'm obviously still upset about Sunday but I'm heartbroken for MON. To have his tenure at Celtic end on this note is truly painful.
Judging by the pictures that accompany the story on the BBC website, the media will try to portray him leaving in humiliation. It is the duty of each and every fan to give him the send off he deserves and show these people the reason why Celtic are special.
With regard to the new guy, the dye is cast. Give the Board a wee bit of credit for having someone in place to hit the ground running.
Whether you actually agree with the appointment or not (Wwhoever it is), it is again your duty to give him the benefit of doubt.
Over the next 2 months the new guy will need to rebuild a team. His decisions in the transfer market will dictate our success and failure for years to come. The least we can do is to support him in trying to take the club forward.
GM
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Frank from Bedlington there may not be a queue of top managers availabe right now but we are talking about the Celtic Job.
Especially if we are moving to the EPL in 2 years, its a major job if it becomes available.
I don't think we are as far back as 2000 either.
Tony, Latvia
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We have no manager, an over the hill team who have suffered the biggest reverse in our history. Not a great deal of cash to spend.
Am I alone in not feeling confident about the future ?
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What pulling power would Strachan have to bring quality footballers to our team. None thats what be prepared for second rate expensive southhampton flops and coventry misfits arriving near a statium near you soon. We all know that the wage bill has to be cut well we will get what we pay for the title next year is already surrendered the day MON walks away.
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Baldymeister - point taken, although getting to a champions league semi-final is something i'm sure we'd be happy with.
Whoever is manager has to be a long term appointment as we can't go back to the instablity of the late '90s.
Saturday is just the beginning.
"The pessimist sees difficulty in every opportunity. The optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
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If Strachan is appointed the club have taken a huge step backwards. The next stage of the plan was competing in the next round of the CL. Until the style of British Football changes then the way forward is a European Manager. Co Adraisane or Paul Le Guen would be my ideal choice, both play attaractive flowing football, which the Celtic Family are crying out for.
G
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I'm not going to jump on the bandwagon & slate specific players. The flaws on Sunday are the same ones from Seville. We all know the areas of the team that need addressed & we all know who are past their sell by date, however our backroom staff leave me confused. Steve Walford deals specifically in the art of defending - with 3 minutes to go we were defending on our own 6 yard box. John Robertson deals with our wing play & the art of crossing a ball. We have absolutely no width & no one who can put in a decent delivery. This to me is a major flaw.
On the managerial front i hope all of us, regardless of the dissappointment of recent years, can show our appreciation for Martin O'Neill. He has made tactical & transfer mistakes, but he has brought us much joy along the way, brought passion back to Parkhead & we are now taken seriously in European Competition. Saturday will be a sad day, but the torment he must be going through is hard to express. The most successful Hoops Manager since Stein - what else can you say.
Paul - There appears to be some apprehension towards appointing Strachan because he relegated Coventry, but who realistically is fit for the job, can instill attacking football again with a small transfer kitty, and cut it at European level.
Hiddink has done great with PSV, but remember he relegated Real Betis.
Le Guen (Lyon) is a technically gifted coach, but a top three finish in the French league is perceived as a successful season over there. In this country, second best is failure.
Mowbray - worked wonders with an inexperienced team, but can he step up
Burns - failed before
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Paul - you know I don't agree with your financial analysis - but now is not the time for further debate (that will come soon enough).
I just want to repeat my last post on this thread - right now this is the most important thing for us:
Hullbhoy - never doubted the e-tims bhoys for a minute. Happy with a day or two's introspection - but after that we need to come out fighting.
This isn't for the Celtic board (you know what I think), it isn't for the players and it doesn't even need to be for MON (though for me it will be).
On Saturday we need to come out fighting for each other. There is no-where else in this country we can turn to but one another. If we do this it will help the healing process immesurably.
The league has gone in the most awful of circumstances - our worst fears were realised. However now that the worst has happenned what else have we got to fear? We are liberated. No more fear, no more watching through our fingers, no more tears.
All thats left for me is anger and determination. Anger at this little backward country which despises us through its inherent sectarianism. Determination to show these people what we are made of and what a true community is like.
Oh and there is a fair sprinkling of revenge in mind too. Remember all these wee teams whom we were bored of thrashing. Well I'll tell you what - I will never be bored of that again. I want Dundee Utd to be the first victims of this. I will never get tired of defeating them.
So to all Tims out there - to ETims, Keep the Faith and the many other Celtic boards. To those of us still in despair. Use the anger - Saturday presents us the the perfect opportunity to show our unity and our strength.
WE SHALL NOT BE MOVED.
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First time poster, great site Paul, keep it up. Looking forward to your BIG story.
Firstly, I'd like to take this opportunity to condemn the media over this last few weeks have clearly manufactured their own headlines, this has been the biggest case of Chinese whispers I've seen in a long time! It started off as 'O'Neill makes his intentions unclear' to 'Strachan to replace O'Neill following his step down as Celtic manager'! To quote MON verbatim when asked about his future "I came back with my old stock answer; I know it gets really monotonous. I’ve been leaving this club for five years. There is as good a chance of my staying as leaving" In context its no different to the same answer he has given for years now!I just hope that Celtic fans wait for the facts and turn their backs on that media bandwagon that's been trying to get up Kerrydale Street for the last Five years. What effect they had on yesterdays outcome we'll never know but I'd urge all Celtic fans to reserve judgement and keep the faith. Secondly, this is a new low I've felt as a Celtic supporter, not so much disappointment as hurt, much more so than Seville, because as that little genius from Kilrea put it, we were punching above our weight then. Now however, to beat Rangers at Ibrox and go Five points clear with four games to go and not win the league is truly unbelievable. I thought I'd feel better today, how wrong was I? I'm still trapped in the perpetual motion of shaking my head in disbelief! This, I feel, is the turning point for Celtic! And I for one cant wait to be part of it.
Hail Hail.
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How about the first 2 signings being Riordan and Mowbray?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/h/hibernian/4575821.stm
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Paul,
Not quite sure I totally agree with you this time. I agree that it is not money that caused us to fail. How much do we need to spend to be able to beat the Motherwells, the Hearts etc.
Surely the Celtic reserves or 19's would give these teams a run for their money let alone the first team. If we loose to AC Milan then I can take the lack of spending argument but if we loose to Motherwell or any other SPL team then don't us trot out this money to spend crap. How much money do these teams spend that allows them to beat us on a consistent basis.
As for no selleable assets , I do not go with your arguements. Rangers had a weaker value than us two years ago,if you compare the playing staff, and yet they were able to refresh their team with absolutely no new money. If they can do it then lets take our head out of the sand. If they can renew their team by cutting out dead wood even paying them to go then why can't we.
We may not have been able to sell our players for much but we could save a heck of a lot on wages by releasing them. These money could be better spent on acquiring a Bosman who has superior skill and would also accept a reduced wage to our over-inflated players. [Valuations and wages has come down since we last signed these players].
The reason we have an aged team is that O'Neil is too loyal to players and would rather not let them go. This imotional attachment blinded him to obvious failures of these players.
This isn't a witch hunt for O'Neil since I believe that he has been great for the club. Just as I suggest that managers must not be imotionally attached to players we supporters must also not be too imotionally attached to any manager irrespective of how good they have been. Once we become imotional attachment to anything, we loose perspective and rational judgement. CELTIC is a living entity and must always look to the future. Yesterday's achievements belong to our History but it should not stop us from moving forward. They players were great for us and they gave us Servile but that is no reason not to notice that they can't take us further and replaced them even drop them when they are not playing well. O'Neil has been a great Celtic manager but that should not stop us from knowing that his style of play and personality traits can not get us to a higher plane.
Now for the arguements about pushing the boat out , breaking the bank etc.. this seems to be a Celtic thing. I have never heared anybody at Ibrox or in the media asking for David Murray to break the bank or push the boat out to get success. Possibly that is not a great idea for Rangers. When it comes to Celtic every media pundit and his dog is advising that we break the bank in the hope that there will be success. I suppose they mean well, if not many of us would not believe it.
I do not believe that we should gamble the Clubs future for an uncertain gain. My grandad supported Celtic, My Dad supported Celtic, my son supports Celtic. We supporters now are only custodians of this heritage which we will pass on to future generations. It is not within our power to gamble this heritage and endanger it for future supporters. My view is that as supporters we can only do the best to nurse this Heritage through our times and safely pass it on to the next generation. WE INHERITED IT , IT IS NOT OURS TO GAMBLE AWAY.
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Tony - agree to disagree on points but please drop the 'EPL in 2007' nonsense. It's not going to happen.
As I said we need to get real and stay together and for the meantime focus on the short term and stabalise the ship.
That's not going to happen if we get distracted by daft talk about the EPL.
Much to my disappointment we are stuck where we are.
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As someone once said "this too will pass"
Paul I share your excitement for what lies ahead.
At fir park on Sunday i had to keep my mouth and enthusiasm in check because of the seat i had in the Main stand.
The thing that stood out for me apart from the obvious, we have come to accept a team that only plays in spells.
For 15 minutes at the start of the second half Celtic played with verve and pace and i thought it was only a matter of time.
The Halmark of all great Celtic teams is their fitness, drive,pace and the ability to apply constant pressure.
How many times have we witnessed that this season once? twice?
Pace and ability is always the answer lets look forward to Saturday and the Summer.
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Paul,
I have it on very good authority that Celtic will announce to the Stock Exchange tomorrow that Martin O'Neill is stepping down as manager after Saturday's final.
I have also heard from a gentlemen that both you and I know that Strachan has signed a 4 year contract.
I am not pleased about this at all. He does not have the credentials that we are looking for. i.e. A European pedigree. However I will back him to the hilt if he gets the job.
Kevin McGarry
Newarthill
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If MON is offski, then the Board could do worse than give Phillipe Troussier an interview. He's just been released by Marseille (due to club politics, not the man). Has great knowledge of world football, has been successful at club and country level and he has an eye for finding gems of players in Africa. Also speaks great English.
Why we fall back on UK managers with no pedigree when we want to crack the Euro scene is beyond me ????
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Frank from Bedlington, Time will tell about the EPL, i still think it's a big job that should attract a lot of top class managers.
I think we have all said & thought a lot of negative things in the past couple of days and often we say things out of major disapointment.
I did the same and have not done a decent days work either yesterday or today, it is very hard to take at the moment.
I would not expect the club to go for anything less than a very decent appointment if MON does go. I honestly don't see Strachan as the right choice and think we would need to be very careful if we have got major money to spend in the summer.
Whoever comes in should have a good track record of getting good players for reasonable money.
I still hope that MON will be here next season.
If not then if we could attract a European coach, with a history of teams that with technically gifted footballers who play the ball on the ground....that would be the preferred choice for me.
After Paul posts his story about the Glazer effect then see if you are still as scepticle about the EPL move.
If it did happen then i would hope that we would be on a major investment operation into the team.
Still no word about a share issue right enough, maybe it's just about timing.
Agree to disagree Frank, but i'm staying positive ...for now.
It's a very thin line though for the board to tread, most of us could easily switch the other way depending on the actions in the next couple of weeks.
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