 Thursday, May 19, 2005
Survival of the FA Premiership now in doubt
The battle lines are drawn. FA Premiership Chief Executive Richard Scudamore has set out his stall: 'The Premier League is blessed with a very conservative constitution. Fourteen clubs out of 20 need to vote to do anything.
“So it is almost impossible, and we have seen it in the past, for a small group of clubs to come along and achieve an alteration to what has been a very successful formula, both in terms of the way we do the TV deals and also the way we distribute the money.
“Many have tried, but to get to 14 out of 20 is an amazing thing. It's very hard to see what benefit there is. There is none in terms of moving away from the collective selling deal for a vast majority of the clubs.
“The Premier League's strength is founded upon its collective selling and of selling of TV rights throughout the world, which is the biggest issue and we will be making sure it is protected.”
The European Commission do not fancy the fight, spokesman Jonathan Todd said: "We do not have a problem with joint selling, and we have recently given our blessing to a similar agreement with the German Bundesliga.
"We have a provisional agreement with the Premier League and we are still talking to them about the terms and conditions of the contracts, but the principle of joint selling is not a problem."
So we know for a fact that the Premiership will not allow Glazer to walk away with his TV rights and that no legislator is going to make them.
This will not be a surprise to Glazer’s bankers, who have backed Glazers plan to the tune of £540million.
It is not just Glazer who needs money, remember my article from last week, Arsenal, Liverpool, Chelsea and Newcastle would all welcome the additional revenue available to them.
,
Sounds to me like the Premiership is dead - you heard it here first!
While everyone is watching this battle for TV rights, the ‘old’ media have not started to look for the story about where the really big money is in this deal.
Hope to publish tomorrow.
114 Comments:
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Message to Tosh McKinley. Heard you on Clyde tonight Tosh, if Tom Shields is giving Paul credit as a source, is it not about time you done the same? The guy deserves credit just as you deserve credit for backing him.
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paul, surely this is all Glazer v EPL posture, crank up the pressure and watch the weak wilt.
The big boys can wait until the poor blink first.
you dont need to change the world, you just need to give the impression you can!
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Paul,
It's been a while since I last posted, so a quick thank you for all of the thought provoking material - keep it going.
I don't think that this is posturing, it is about real hard cash and lots of it. The battle for ownership of TV money will become the catalyst in the dissolution of the Premiership. There are several forces at work and they are indeed set to collide and create the “perfect storm”.
1) The EC have not developed “rules of engagement” which permit them to adequately referee in a business arena that does not conform to the traditional profile of a Plc. Football, with its feverishly growing economic importance, is a game they do not understand and would rather not have to be involved in. Ex. The “Bosman” ruling was the work of the courts, not the EC Minister for T&I.
2) The unwillingness of UEFA to establish policy which effectively supports free trade yet allows the sport to capitalize on its growing popularity is reflective of the short-sighted leadership. They are increasingly uncomfortable with their role as the “governing body” rather than the “controlling body”. Ex. UEFA can’t decide whether they support domestic leagues which incorporate teams from several member countries, yet they have already set precedent which they now oppose (I think?).
3) Malcolm Glazer is about to initiate the single largest financial catastrophe in football history (just beating out the LUFC collapse and the RFC signing of TA Flo), OR, he has a plan. The fact that his bankers are putting up one whole season of Chelsea’s transfer budget, would suggest the latter. The only way Glazer’s business plan gets financing at a rate that can be supported until the ultimate transition of the debt back to the club, is with a back-loaded commitment based on seizing control of the single greatest source of immediately exploitable revenue – TV!
The major players (the ones that would vote for the inclusion of Celtic and Rangers in the EPL) are already rubbing their hands together – look for them to be gathered at Abramovich’s retreat in the Carribean this summer. I think that the sub-plot could become more interesting, as the potential resistance of the “next tier” of clubs, may determine how far this challenge to the status-quo reaches. If we were to speculate wildly, does it not make sense that the European elite will want a piece of the action – better be on board as this ship might only sale once!
I know that your own words are being written in your sleep, and I look forward to more insight on how this could unfold.
Ps. We should have bought Landon Donnovan - $$$$$
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How many teams would threaten a break away league?
Man U, Chelsea, Arseanal,Liverpool
Newcastle?
Would this be enough to get sky on board?
I believe your right Paul, i cannot see any possibility Glazer would invest or be able to borrow the money unless something like this had more than a good chance of happening.
How does Celtic fit into it?
Are there only 2 Scottish Clubs involved?
If it is to happen in 2007 as it should be given the interest on Glazers debt then is 15 million enough to equip us for the new English league which is only 12 months away?
I would say more like 25-30 million is needed to be spent this summer in order to blend a team ready for bigger challenges a year later.
The new TV deal would probably be for world wide audiences and with Glazers american knowledge then we are open to a major fan base growth in the USA and probably for Asia too.
Nike would be a major part of our marketing power but do our board have plans in place to make the most of the marketing opportunity?
As you have mentioned a couple times in the past few days you are waiting to hear anything contradictory before publising the real story, i wonder how much you know to be truth and how much is educated guess:)
The mastercard post was a gem in attracting people to the site and causing a bit of controversy, whilst mentioning the big story about to be published, Followed by the above post very quickly.
Your either very astute or learning very fast Paul:)Either way i take my hat off to you, good play!
I hope we can use some of that astuteness to help develop the marketing needed to exploit the huge untapped markets that would be available should it all come to fruition.
Tony, Latvia
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We have seen a number of EPL clubs attempting to extend their traditional fan base, out into the Far East for an example, as sponsors have recognised this with the likes of Everton and next season I believe Fulham.
Do you honestly think Manchester City would not want to be given the opportunity of joining, given their financial position.
OK, so now we have, MU, Chelsea, Arsenal, Liverpool, Everton, Man City, Fulham (owned by Al Fayhed - now thats a capiltalist).
There may be a way around the 14 teams but does anyone really think that when this gathers momentum, Steve Gibson at Middlesbrough or the Spurs board would want to miss out.
There may be a much bigger game here and I may have missed the point completely but if we are sticking with inclusion into a revamped EPL, the biggest factor will be how many teams would be in the new league. If there are a minimum of 16 teams including Celtic and them, is anyone honestly trying to tell me that 14 others wouldn't sign up?
The reality of it is this, forget about the current TV revenue, what would the revenue be if they missed the 'boat'.
Now thats a real decision.
Some clubs don't have a decision to make yet, so they wont. If they do have to make a real decision we'll see who are really in it for the 'collective' good.
I think it's been tried before 'everyone is equal, just some more so than others' to paraphrase.
The implications of, say Man City, being left out, would finish the club.
My personal feeling is that we may not have seen the 'big picture' yet, but working on the assumption that individual TV deals are the beginning, I don't think getting 14 clubs to agree would be the issue, who to leave out would be the biggest fight.
Paul - after the Mastercard issue, I've found a joblot of Tin Helmets on ebay (remarkably comfortable too). Maybe brand them CQN and make them available on interest free credit or discounted with Celtic Mastercard? (Your home is at risk if you don't pay the mortgage - or set fire to it)
I think you might need one over
the next few weeks
Keep it going
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The minute the "suit" from the EPL said that Glazer couldn't change things the game was up. Paul, your take on this is gradually unfolding as previously described. I think that Glazer has already got Sky involved through his FNFL franchise and their TV in the US snd would not have launched his bid without talking to Murdoch first. With Sky announcing redundancies and cut backs they must be worried about their current finances and are preparing for a different future.
The Russian, while only spending pin money from his wad, is not chucking his cash away for no reason and Kenyon will alos be waiting to jump as Chelski try and raise their revenues (although why they think they are popular outside the Kings Road and Russia is beyond me).
Celtic will benifit when Glazer blows up the TV contract first of all and allows Man U to do their own deal (like Bara, Real and the Italian clubs). That will then allow Celtic (and Rangers) to do the same and start to get more cash in ahead of any league re-structure.
If there is a rights issue in the offing then I think that DD has had thye nod that there is a brighter financial future ahead for Celtic, why else would anybody invest now in the current climate if they didn't think that there was a real profit to be made in the future.
Sounds like the summer is not going to be a dull.
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Maybe just maybe the epl will do what they did before, reform,using the same format only with a non collective deal for tv rights.
Who is to say they would want or need the so called "old firm" within those ranks.
Ie man utd get the right to their own tv stream. Glazer charges say 200 pounds to watch the utd games ,its a package what difference if they are playing bolton or celtic/rangers?. None the utd fans would have already paid up front.
Bolton get the right to do the same their fans are charged for a package of their games .
The difference is package and not pay per view ie you pay your season ticket at celtic park and whether you turn up or not is niether here nor there, you have paid for the whole package.
This could be the only package available, not individual pay per view where the audience would flutuate. Celtic/Rangers would have no bearing on the above.
Therefore a move to the epl might be in our interets but even with a revamp of tv rights not thiers. I wont hold my breath.
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Welcome to the "Nike World Series League". Greed is going to eat football alive, high time UEFA/FIFA lay down a marker on the future structure of Football i.e. country hopping. the best way forward is keeping the national league structures but amalgamate the league cups (Eng, Ire, Sco & Wal for example).
Balbbriggan Bhoy.
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Paul's repeated teasers about his big up-and-coming story suggest it will touch on the issue of worldwide media rights and not just domestic TV payments. Man U are a big draw in the US and elsewhere but I would be interested to know how they compare with Celtic as regards PPV subscriptions for the likes of SPL matches, Old Firm games, Champions League ties and even pre-season friendlies. An earlier post suggested that Nike and Budweiser are only too aware of our massive drawing power. Do you think Glazer - who will no doubt have had lengthy discussions with DD, Magner and McManus - will be oblivious to this?
The EPL and UEFA are starting to twitch nervously and bluster incoherently. Their initial comments are strangely defensive, given that Man U have said nothing yet. They know what's coming and are trying to scare away the big, bad wolf. But their house is made of straw and he's gonna gobble 'em up!
All we have to do is sit tight, then stroll in the open door.
Oh, and by the way, is there a big game on Sunday? C'moanraSellik!
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Would it not have been easier for Glazer to do a deal with the following teams.
Man Utd
Chelsea (Not got a huge worldwide support)
Arsenal (Again potential fan base is limited)
Heres where it gets interesting
Celtic
Rangers (Mibees)
Real Madrid
Barcelona
Juve
Inter Milan
AC Milan
Bayern
Porto
PSV
etc
What I'm saying would he have been able to put together a european super league. A new entity with the biggest clubs in Europe? All the SKY money and CL money would then flood into this league and even if they negociated jointly everyone could see an increase in TV Revenue.
Just a thought.
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Phob
The only challenge I see to a European League are some of the attendances at Champions League matches.
I think Juve got below 7000 for one game.
I question if there is the same desire on the continent for some of these games, I was in Barca in November and tickets were hardly scarce - I think it was 30,000 below capacity.
To make it a good spectacle for TV it needs to be competitive and have an atmosphere from the support. Most stadiums aren't like CP on a European night.
The other point is that I believe that some European teams already have individual rights to their image and broadcasting therefore it would need to be worth even more to these clubs.
We need to cross one border at a time.
Allowing access to PPV will be key, there is still talk of having a PPV facility on Freeview boxes.
Technology via the internet or digital (freeview/sky or cable)will mean that the potential audience is greater than it ever has been.
The key will be not to dilute the gate paying/season ticket holding supporter.
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I dont like the idea of all this super league talk we either go to England under the current set-up or stay in scotland.
I dont want to see clubs destroyed(maybe rangers) no matter who they are because of Glazers ignorance everybody has to be on board.
Why not have a 22 EPL league with Celtic and Rangers there.
Then do a deal were everyone gets a slice of the pie although some slices bigger than others.
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With regards to the various comments of the TV rights issue, I think we are all missing the point a little. It is well published that within 12 months DVD quality digital images will be available via the internet direct to TV. Therefore, with this vast unregulated media available, the major clubs will not need to depend on the fair share options from their repective league. Celtic will be able to make more money through this and the TV industry know they can't stop it. Therefore,Sky will want a deal sooner rather than later to have Celtic in the EPL. The bottom line is, the days of any league having control of sharing the revenue are numbered and they will want to make what money they can whilst they can.
PS: Paul, keep these posts coming. Great reading
Andy B Perth Aust
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Paul67 your `watch this space’, `tune into the same channel same time same place’ cliff-hanger comments make me feel like a kid again, back at the old Saturday morning cinema/T.V. days.
Phob you have a good point here you should also include the Greek teams who have a huge potential overseas following of ex-pats esp. in Australia and USA.
I want to see a pan-Europe set up rather than an EPL, we have to look beyond the shores of England as the theatre of all the world is before us, after all this is were the European competitions began without the interest of English clubs as they thought it wouldn’t work and that they didn’t need it, they were too good – any parallels today?
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Does anyone really believe that the 15 million raised from the new share issue will be give to MON?
I still think the we will be lucky to spend 5-6 million this summer.
The only way we will spend more is with the added revenue of player sales.
I don't want to sound paranoid but the media slant on this is that we will have millions to spend . When we don't spend it they will slaughter us.
One last point. Can anyone settle a pub arguement?Does CP now meet European 5 star criteria?
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As an example of the pull Celtic has around the world. I was in Australia last year and Perth in particular, An Irish pub were showing Celtic games from Celtic tv off the internet, the pub was packed to the rafters at 4am, and it was on more than one occasion, the attraction Celtic has around the world is unbelieveable, I met lads that grew up supporting their hometown club yet they'd think I was mad to get up at that hour to watch a game, whereas I'd be gutted if i missed it. The market is out there, I'm sure them scenes were repeated across Australia and the states and around the world, just needs someone to take the bull by the horns, I'm very excited by whats happening here. Also any chance you could set up a mailing list paul67? Its tough to keep checking up on the sit with the boss sitting a few cube's away. Cheers Keep up the good work..
KerryTim
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Sounds promising
Paul - i've been scanning the papers for detailed info on how Glazer went about restructuring the NFL American Football leagues, but can't find a thing. The reason being i think this would be a good indicator as to his plans for Football - sorry Soccer on these shores, that hopefull include us.
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I dont really care about ManUtd or Glazer or a TV deal that they can do. It would seem that they HAVE to do a deal just to stay afloat what with all the debt they now have.
Realisticly how much money could the Celtic TV rights be worth? (Celtic media revenue for 2003/2004 was £16.06M)
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I'm getting a bit nervous about the mention of a European league.
This would only work if it was in addition to a normal domestic league.
Domestic leagues are where the bread and butter of the game lies.
We need the fans at these games to create the atmosphere, this is
what gives the games the appeal for TV audiences. Remove the atmosphere
and the product will suffer.
At the moment European leagues appear attractive because of the current
Champions League. Qualifiying for the CL is an achievement so everyone
is excited and therefore the atmosphere for these games are usually a bit
special.
Remove the qualification from these games and eventually the atmosphere
will suffer over time.
Teams that are used to winning trophies each season could also find themselves
winning nothing for years. What will this do to attendances at grounds where
fans have been brought up winning silverware?
The 'Super' teams could end up with a product that no longer appeals to the
punters. Who knows, punters may even move back to grass roots and start
supporting a local team. SPL anyone?
Shammy
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Balbriggan Bhoy – what makes you think football didn’t start eating itself over 10 years ago when the EPL was created? Look at the number of clubs that so nearly put themselves out of business in a rush to get into and stay in the EPL – there’s nothing new under the sun – the logic and processes used to create the new model will be the same as created the ‘breakaway’ EPL back then. And the big will get bigger. Now do we want Celtic to be part of this or not? Seems obvious to me.
I, too, was surprised at the complacency of the EPL Chair – if I was one of the middling clubs, would I really want to be part of a ‘conservative’ set-up or part of an exciting innovation?
Rammiebhoy – I think you’re concerns about competiveness and excitement are valid but essentially structural and therefore fixable. Lack of competitiveness has nothing intrinsically to do whether you play the likes of West Brom, Shaktar Donetsk or Dunfermline every week, but everything to do with meaning. With a competitive structure, the best players in the world, playing in the best stadia, marketed and delivered with the best new technology can deliver, the inevitable new model will deliver the goods.
Andy B.’s excellent point about internet delivery is one which has not been discussed a great deal in all of this and indeed gets to the core of the debate.
It is our right to be at the top table, it is our duty to demand a place, and through all our efforts here (especially of course, those of Paul), it is all unfurling before us. However, fair play to Glazer, whichever way you slice it, it is his enterprise that is making this happen.
I CANNOT WAIT!
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McGraininSpain,the new technical ability of the internet with showing sport,films and the like is going to blow everyone out the water in the very near future,sky is going to be the provider (cameras)of the live coverage of sports to these media outlets,it's the only way they will survive with Football being the main one in most countries for their revenue.
Kerrytim,you hit it on the head without realising what you actually said.
200 Celtic fans in a pub in OZ watching it illegally(yes illegal and draining Celtic of much needed revenue) on a Celtictv internet link up with only one payment being paid by ONE subscriber.
In the future you will have every expat in every corner of the world sitting in the comfort of their own home PAYING individually on the net or on SKY now straight away there is 200% more money coming in from that pub alone,think about it.
Not only do you have the avid Celtic fan around world paying you now you have the fans who support,Hearts,Hibs,Aberdeen.... who can't see a game as it's only Celtic/r*ngers supporters clubs that show the games just now.
Example:
I know one poor wheelchair bound Hearts fan living in New Zealand for 30 years who has no contact with the SPL except for a friend bringing round a weekly edition of a British football mag.
Yet he would pay ALL his pension on a chance to sit in his house drink Mcewans export and watch his beloved team most weeks.
Just to let you know I was in Singapore for a short period in 1999.(over 6 years ago)I could go into a internet cafe and watch EPL live on a broadband computer.
Choo Choo,the train is gathering momentum Paul67 as you know
3 points Bhoys it all we need
Cabbage
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I'm sure i'll be inthe minority but I don't want to see the day when my football club has to rely on groups of American, Asian or Australian businessmen packing out pubs at 4am just to compete.
I know it's old-fashioned and people will say "move with the times", but when my local team has to become a global marketing brand then I'm just not interested.
I'd far rather UEFA laid down regulations for national leagues to make them more competative ie. spending restrictions, better cash distibution etc.
People might see a European Super League as the holy grail right now but i'll be a different story when they can't go to away games, their teams languishing at the foot of the table, kick off times are in the middle of the night to satisfy Japanese TV etc.
Teams have been encouraged to exploit this so called "untapped Asian and American market" for years and there's still been no significant gains from it. I'm sure sales of Bayer Leverkusen strips didn't exactly go through the roof when they signed Landon Donovan and the same with PSV Eindhoven. Anyone remember Man Utd's link up with the Yankees to sell more merchandise? Didn't think so?
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Sorry to change the subject, but in looking forward to Sunday's games I decided to take a look back to earlier in the season to try to guage Celtic and Rankers respective chances of success this weekend.
The last time Celtic played at Motherwell in the SPL it was a very even encounter, with Celtic emerging as 3-2 winners. The goal attempts stats showed 9-8 in favour of Celtic, who also led the corners count 3-2.
Looking at Rankers last SPL outing to Easter Road shows that they narrowly triumphed by the only goal of the game. However, looking a little deeper, Hibs had 19 goal attempts (hitting the woodwork twice) to Rankers' 5 (woodwork once) and 10 corners to Rankers' 1... and all this in spite of Hibs playing the last half hour with 10 men!
If the upcoming games follow a similar pattern then Celtic's result may be immaterial. Hibs need to get at least a point to guarantee European football next season, so they will be up for it, and they can't rely on Hearts doing them any favours! So if they (Hibs) can keep all 11 men on the park for the full 90 minutes, and Rankers have a little less good luck in trying to withstand the onslaught, then the Hibees might just manage to finish the job off for us while we enjoy the celebrations at Motherwell.
And if anyone is unable to get a ticket for our game, then why not try for a Hibs brief and go support the green & whites against Rankers instead...!
(Stats sourced from Comeonthehoops.com)
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any tips on how to sit on my hands, without smiling, in the Motherwell stand whe Celtic score on Sunday??
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To Bigchipsuk : Actaully, Rangers were down to 10 men for most of the match as Nogoals was sent off in the 1st half.
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The £15million preferential share issue. This isn't the same £15m which is to be O'Neill's war chest is it?
All the previous discussion has been that we could afford to splash up to £20m this summer, and that was even before any talk of a share issue.
Is the £15 "preferential" share issue just a tool to enable some other investors to climb on board, also allowing DD to up his investment (without increasing his %age stake in the club).
I've not linked these two, but it seems that all the press have and here at CQN Paul67 is getting plaudits for predicting this spend, due to the share issue news. Fine, it looks like there is going to be cash, but this isn't how it was meant to be. Was it?
Paul, I'm confused? (and not for the first time)
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This makes perfect sense Paul, in reducing the size of the English Premiership.
UEFA have been calling on Leagues for years to reduce the number of matches, especially the top leagues such as EPL, La Liga etc.
In years of World Cup, European Championship then some players could be playing 35-40 League Matches, 10 internationals, 10 cup matches of different kinds and 10 European matches. This is being viewed as far too many games for quality football to be played.
What UEFA want is a maximum of 30 league games, 1 domestic cup plus the remainder of European and Internationals.
This could come into line with a 14 or 16 team Premiership as has been mentioned earlier.
The big guns of Man Utd, Chelsea, Arsenal, Liverpool and Newcastle, plus Celtic and Rangers, then the other clubs with potential, Spurs, Sunderland, Manchester City, Aston Villa, Everton plus a few of the smaller sides, which could include the likes of Hearts and Hibs if they get their act together.
Barbara Woodlock
Bridgework
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Unknown
have you ever been outside Glasgow? come back when you have a valid arguement to make. I take it "businessmen" means someone with a job?
I heard a few crackers on here but that's a beauty.
Cabbage
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Greenmaestro,
The share issue is over and above the money Paul was talking about.
Whether they choose to spend it as well or not i don't know either.
Maybe Paul can elighten us on that?
But if it is more than a serious possibility of us moving to the EPL in 2007 then i would say we would need to spend as much as possible now to blend a team capable of holding their own.
Other factors maybe the training facility again, car park and various things mentioned by posters of this and other Celtic sites recently.
But to answer your question, this would be seperate money from what Paul has mentioned previously.
Tony, Latvia
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Is it just salary that comes into the 50% of turnover or does this include the transfer fee?
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Thanks Tony, this is what I thought. It's everyone else who's wrong.
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Hearts & Hibs, with their less than 20,000 capacity stadia are small fry in English terms. There are dozens of English clubs with bigger stadia than that. It's only Celtic & Rangers who are big enough for an invitational EPL.
JimV
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Cabbage,
If you think those 200 ex-pats are going to pay for internet coverage instead of going down the pub with their mates to watch it, I'm afraid to say you're wrong. I agree with you that they should do this, but it's not going to happen.
Bankiebhoy, I dont know exactly who Rangers' feeder club are, somewhere in middle-east/Asia. will look into it.
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I have grave concerns that the £15m will not be used to strengthen the team. When the report of this new share issue was in the press it was part of a larger article that stated that the co-op bank have told Celtic and Man City that the bank are looking for an “out” from football and want both clubs to reduce their borrowing. I am of the opinion that the finance raised will be used to reduce this borrowing.
I did notice that Paul seemed very happy to accept the Kudos’ and took great delight in stating that he was right about the "big spend" the finance that Paul discussed was due to amortisation and NOT a share issue.
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Anon 12.52pm: Sorry, you are absolutely correct. The match report confirms this, but it was omitted from the "card summary":
"Rangers had to play for more than two-thirds of the game with ten men after Nacho Novo was sent off after aiming a kick at Craig Rocastle off the ball."
Perhaps that's why NoGoals has been so UNprolific of late... he's forgotten that he's meant to kick the ball in the opponents' net, not kick the opponents in the balls!
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Cabbage,
Those 200 ex-pats are going to see all the advertising and will buy the strips etc.
The problem for the EPL is a declining market interest. As I posted on another thread from the website http://www.footballeconomy.com/.
”The biggest games remain as attractive as ever with both games between Arsenal and Manchester United attracting a television audience of more than 3 million. At the other end of the spectrum the match between Bolton Wanderers and Norwich City attracted only 150,000. Three other matches (Newcastle versus Norwich, Portsmouth versus Palace and Bolton versus Birmingham) attracted fewer than 500,000 viewers. The decline in average viewers was sharper for Sky's Prem Plus pay-per-view service. Average audiences were down more than 15 per cent compared with last season.”
The question for Sky etc is the one posed by this website (footballeconomy.com) is stated as, “A fundamental question is whether the increasing gap between the top three and the rest (exemplified by Arsenal's 7-0 defeat of Everton) will reduce interest in the Premiership as it comes to be seen as less and less competitive.”
Advertisers don't like this.
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Anon 1.15, I am counting on the ‘big boys’ going the whole hog, sure they will.
Gedinte, agree with all you say. Thanks for your support.
Thanks Tony, you are pretty close to the mark.
Rammiebhoy, your point about Man City is the key one. Anyone invited to this league would accept. Thanks for the eBay tip.
Spot on Gerryb67
Anon 8.57, your logic works, but this would half the earnings of the likes of Man Utd. Look out for the next article on this.
Balbriggan Bhoy, greed ate football a long time ago. How many players at Celtic today would be there if we were not paying obscene amounts of money? This is not starting anything, it is only a logical conclusion.
Phob, the plan does not need Real Madrid or Milan and is designed to outstrip them. In truth there are no global brands in football at the moment. Celtic and Man Utd are as close as anyone, but do you really think kids are checking the scores in Texas?
This is the job in hand.
Adrian1888, maybe, but your suggestion is not going to happen. It is important that Celtic are ‘on the train’ with this one.
Andy B in Perth WA, Internet TV is coming soon and will have an impact here. It will feed the clubs at the expense of the broadcasters.
Lostrambling, CP is not yet 5 star status. Summer spend will be much bigger than you expect.
Kerrytim, good idea about the mailing list. I’ll see what I can do.
VargasShampoo, Glazer didn’t change the American game (as far as I know).
Thanks McGrainInSpain
I can see the train at Carfin Halt Cabbage.
Greenmaestro, you are right. Without spending a lot of time on budget forecasting:
Celtic can spend money without the share issue (up to £20m on players signing 4 year deals) and still break even.
The share issue is needed to:
Strengthen the balance sheet (very low, could do with a pick up).
Enhance property assets (training ground, facilities at CP, who knows maybe the South Stand).
The balance sheet need is largely for contingency in case projections do not come in.
Spot on Barbara, N. Motherwell.
Phob, salary only.
Yeh, good to know you're looking in Tosh :-)
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I hope everyone enjoys the game this weekend. I will be there- got a ticket for the Motherwell end. I am considering buying a Harry Potter scarf if things start to look ugly!!!
GA
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As far as I can make out Paul has been saying celtic would be in a position to spend whether 20 mill or 15 mill but able to spend big if they so wished. That does not mean they would . This was down to {that bloody word again amorisation} coming to an end in respects too hartson, sutton, lennon, thompson etc.
If there is a new prefrential share issue then yes it does allow other targeted investors to put money into the club.
Take the scenario celtic could spend 20 million through borrowing facilities etc and add the 15 million share money to the pot. A/we need better updated training facilities b/ youth training facilities,c/ monies has been earmarked for improvements at celtic park itself.
All this costs money, millions infact. I see it as a new five year plan for celtic, improving the squad updating facilities and most importantly holding onto MON.
If MON gets 15- 20 million to enhance the squad on a five year budget and the facilities are upgraded on a 5 year plan I for one will be more than happy.
MON will buy a striker and stick with him for that sort of period lets hope its bellamy.
Our goal is to qaulify for the latter stages of the champions league, thats where we can earn big bucks. If we can do that then monies can be added to the squad on a yearly basis.
Lets do what is needed firstly.
a/ keep MON
b/ sign bellamy
c/ cut the deadwood out
d/ enhance the current squad.
e/ upgrade the facilities
a+ gub the well
b+ qaulify for the champions league.
c+ win the cup .
What will the polis do when hundreds of celtic fans jump up WHEN we score evict everyone I think not. Easy buy a cheap well scarf bin it on entry and stick together. Evicting 1 or 2 easy but it sounds like there will be many of us they should partition that stand and have the celtic supporters on one end the well in the other. As the great late who ever it was said the horse has bolted.
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Bellamy is going to cost a lot of money given his injury problems.
I wouldn't be too worried about signing him for 6m as long as we were looking to sell him for at least that at some point in the future. We still seem to be the only club who buys players without a view to recouping our outlay.
JimV
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lostrambling,
I don't think CP has a 5 star rating. I couldn't find anything on the UEFA site, sure there will be somewhere.
Try this site for starters -:
http://www.stadiumguide.com/stadiumstars.htm
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There is not much point in buying players if your going to be selling them off in 2 to 3 years again.
We could get bellers now and have him coming into his prime he's 25 now his prime 30-31.
To be succesful you keep your core players for as long as they can do a job and move on other players to freshen things up.
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The problem will be 'Motherwell' fans ie Huns. Who will try to 'out' Celtic fans one by one. It would probably be best for everyone to be open in their support of Celtic right from the start. It's when you are pointed out on your own that you could get being chucked out. Important everyone sticks together.
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CP isn't on the official 5 star list because you have to apply to be on it and pass the subsequent UEFA inspections. i presume also that this costs money.The only benefit of being on the list is that you can host a Euro final. The fact that the SFA will always favour Hampden over CP or Ibrox means that there is no point in being on it other than having bragging rights. As far as I know we already meet the requirements of a five star stadium.
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Compulsory requirements for inclusion in the UEFA Stadia List
The UEFA Stadia list is the list which includes approved venues for European Championship Final Tournaments and UEFA Club Competitions' Finals.
1) Minimum capacity of 50,000 (5 star venues) or 30,000 (4 star venues)
2) All seats must be individual with backrests
3) Playing pitch dimensions of 105 x 68 m
4) Minimum distances between the playing field boundaries and the retaining wall: Sidelines 6m, Goal lines 7,5m
5) No perimeter fencing around the playing area
6) First-rate dressing rooms for both teams and the referees (equal size and furnishings for both teams, spacious, bright and clean)
7) Direct, private and protected access for both teams and the referees, from their dressing rooms to the playing area, and for their arrival at / departure from, the stadium
8) Suitable and appropriately equipped dope-testing room
9) Suitable and appropriately equipped room for the UEFA Delegate/Referee Observer
10) Floodlighting of a minimum intensity of 1400 Lux (eV) in the direction of the main camera, and 1000 Lux (eV) towards the other areas of the stadium, plus an efficient emergency power supply system able, if necessary, to provide instantaneously and without interruption, the equivalent light intensity values
11) A modern and efficient public address system which ensures that messages may be delivered to public areas, inside and outside the stadium, clearly and distinctly, during the event, and which is not diminished by sudden surges in crowd noise levels, nor vulnerable to failure of the main power supply
12) A permanent TV surveillance system in colour, covering all public areas inside and outside the stadium, which is capable of producing instant still photos
13) A stadium control room with the monitor screens for the TV surveillance system. The control posts for the public address announcer, the video information board (if any) the police, fire and medical services should all be located in, or immediately adjacent to the stadium control room which must have a clear, uninterrupted view of the whole interior of the stadium
14) Internationally understandable public signage, inside and outside the stadium, including the stadium approaches
15) A minimum of two sectors, with at least 50 covered seats in each, for disabled persons and their helpers. Such sectors must be suitably equipped with sanitation and refreshment facilities
16) Acceptable sanitary facilities for spectators (both sexes) in terms of numbers, cleanliness and standards. Toilets without seats will no longer be accepted for spectators of either sex
17) Provision of first-rate media facilities in terms of camera positions, working places, TV studios. The number of Media facilities may vary according to the match and the venue. (See UEFA Guideline for Media Facilities)
18) Adequate first class facilities must be provided for VIPs, including a minimum of 200 places at the VIP box, hospitality area for 400 VIP guests, possibilities for hospitality of 200 guests of the competing teams (200x2) and sufficient room outside the stadium (in the immediate vicinity) for Champions Village – approx. 4000 guests (in UEFA Champion league final only)
Compulsory requirements for hosting a UEFA Cup Final
19) International airport(s) able to cope with huge extra demands of UEFA final (capacity for up to 80 charter flights per day in addition to regular flight) airports must be operational day and night
20) Adequate hotel accommodation, for UEFA and its partners, at least 1000 five-star hotel rooms (UEFA Champions League) / 500 five star hotel rooms (UEFA Cup) are needed. In addition, enough other hotel accommodation in all types of category must be available
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Anon 1:08 PM
Could you please explain to me why suggesting a more competative domestic programme would be better than abandoning collective TV deals to join a league where the rich get richer and the poor get poorer, is not "a valid arguement"?
I take it when Celtic are in a European league it'll be ok for Man Utd to rip the TV deal again so they get more than the smaller teams (say, oh, us for example)?
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Adrian1888 I'd say there is a point in selling players after 2 or 3 years.
These days players seem to need a fresh challenge after a few seasons.
But the main point is financial. Stating the obvious but if we sell for the same (or better) price than we paid then the cost, other than salary, is nothing.
It also helps attract promising players who would sign knowing they can move on if they impress.
JimV
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taken from the Glasgow Evening Times today: `Roger Mitchell has claimed the Old Firm could yet make it to the Premiership - thanks to Man United tycoon Malcolm Glazer.
The former SPL chief believes Glazer will break the Premiership's collective bargaining power over TV rights, giving Celtic and Rangers a chance to pitch their case.
However, the European Commission say Glazer's hopes of challenging the Premier League's collective bargaining TV deal are low.
The EC's competition commission has already intervened to prevent BSkyB extending the exclusivity they have enjoyed since the League was formed in 1992 and it was thought they would not stand in Glazer's way if he challenged the collective concept in court.
Glazer could force the issue by launching court action against the Premier League, which could paralyse their ability to negotiate with broadcasters unsure of what they were buying.'
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JimV if these promising young players impress why would you want to move these players on why not keep them.
This is not how you build a team buy selling your promising youngsters to other clubs just to make a profit.
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Adrian1888 I'm not so much talking about promising youngsters more a player like Bellamy. We shell out a lot of money for him, get 2 or 3 good seasons from him them move him for what (or more) we paid for him. IMO it's the only way we can afford players like Bellamy.
JimV
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I wonder where Rodger Mitchell got his information :)
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I dont see were your coming from here, could you imagine we had of made the tidy we profit on Larrson who's to know bellamy might make the same impact.
You just dont sell your best players there better to stick around at the club when there bellamys age.
We could easily make a profit in Petrov but we wont because were not a feeder club.
Were not rangers we dont need to sell.
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Anon 3.51pm
You stated...I take it when Celtic are in a European league it'll be ok for Man Utd to rip the TV deal again so they get more than the smaller teams (say, oh, us for example)?
I seriously doubt if we get involved with the EPL we will ever be seen a a smaller team any more than you would say Barcelona, any of milan teams or Juventus are.
Celtic are a massive club and this would be the opportunity we need to realise our potential.
Tony, Latvia
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Dear All,
You are cordially invited to break free from your shackles, brush down your brimmer and doff said headwear to the mighty Glasgow Celtic in their annual quest for domestic domination.
YOUR team need YOU, I need some spare finger nails to bite (finished my own last weekend at Tynecastle) and if we win there will be full involvement a plenty (book Monday off either way!!)
The plan is meet at the Lyric in Great Windmill Street (just off Shaftsbury Ave) for about 1pm so as to secure a good view for the game versus the dolemakers (previously steelmakers) of Motherwell.
Wear something green and white, leave your dignity at home and prepare to get hoarse as we roar the hoops to glory!!!
Nearest tube is picadilly circus.
Hail Hail and look forward to seeing you there.
Martybhoy
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For anyone who has not followed the structure of next seasons CL then todays article in the evening times is very good. I have noticed recently that there has been a lot of 'good' press about Celtic in the Times - think they are picking up the lost record readers. The recors has lost millions of pounds and attempd to act neutral have been half-hearted and rare.
With regards to Bellamy i believe that we are in a good position to bargain, as i mentioned before i wouldn't get drawn into the hpe. He is 26 I believe and he will not want to miss out on the chance to play CL football. He laso wouldn'e mind a few medals in his cabinet. Additionaly he wants to prove he can be the best, signing for Villa will hardly give him the chance to do this he has had several years in the premiership without the big guns taking notice.
One more point - MON needs 15M at least or he is off! He simply wont accept to be a martyr any longer. The board need to wigh up the cost of loosing this man. Could be a hefty amount when you think about the bigger picture. Anyone coming in will not want a MON team and we cannot attract a decent coach without giving them the much talked about 'warchest' - so come on splash the cash Celtic! Yes if Tosh is reading and the money is spent he owes Paul a mention.
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Adrian1888 I'm not suggesting we become a feeder club (like PSV heaven forbid). What I'm suggesting is that we operate in the big money transfer market by buying & selling players. We cannot afford to buy too many players for 6 million without recouping what we paid for them.
JimV
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Martybhoy - I was told there's only a small TV in the Lyric and it's difficult to get a decent view of the screen. Is this true ?
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Sure we did it when MON first came and Paul says wee about to break even this year and hopefully there will be spare cash lying around.
I just dont really see your logic about selling players to make a handy profit.
The better way to make the profit jim is to progess to the latter stages in the champions league without selling the players.
We were unlucky this last couple of years the lyon incident springs to mind.
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The Lyric has 2 small screens, but good atmosphere.
I'll be in the 12 Pins at Finsbury Park:)
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4.58 Anon,
I have watched many a game in the Lyric and the view is fine. There is always 2 TV's and it's not a massive bar so it's fine. Other places that show the game includes O'Neils in SoHo, Jack beards in Tooting and Tonny Flinns in Chiswick but Sunday will be a banter.
Just off the fone to my skin and blister who has secured me a ticket, but I'm no going as I cannae get a flight :-(
GHail Hail
See you there, I'll be wearing my brimmer - you'll no miss me.
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For all those Celtic fans going to Fir park on Sunday with tickets for the Motherwell end, what you do is this, wear a big woolly jumper over your Celtic top, talk with a Motherwell accent, mention what a raw deal Stephen Pearson got a few times, pretend that you are looking for any Celtic supporters who shouldn't be there by giving those around you the evil eye, when Celtic score look absolutely gutted, when Motherwell score stand up and look as if you are having a great time. As the game progresses and the folks round about you think you really are a Motherwell fan then providing they don’t win your home free. You can invade the park at the end and whip off the big woolly jumper. Good Luck. Joe 90
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For a genuine, at times scary, atmosphere nowhere tops the Yucatan on StokeNewington High Street. 57 TVs. Free sunday lunch. Russian bar maids. Perfect.
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5.09 Did you count all 57 screen yerself? I might go there on saturday just for the free Sunday lunch of course!!!
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Martybhoy
Did you say "spare ticket"
Email me on rumoid@hotmail.com if you need to find a deserving home for it...
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McGraininSpain - I agree with you regarding the competitive nature being fixable but it would always be short term and need further amendments. The issue is, the Champions League, in its current format does not draw the audiences/attendances it should until the latter stages.
We take 7-12000 on any away trip in Europe, not many are kicking down CP to get that many tickets for their own supporters.
A UK based league would shine for a number of reasons and remain bright for a number of years.
As I said before, the mid table clubs in EPL are the ones who hold the power. It makes sense for the top 6 because they can make a lot of money, the rest is about survival.
Glazer will not need to force anything through it will evolve naturally.
Domino effect anyone?
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Hi Ghuys
MON the Hoops and no skitters THIS Sunday ...... PLEASE!
Sorry to change the thread a wee bit, but (paranoia notwithstanding) is anyone else a toaty wee bit worried that this is Poo Dallas' last game at senior level? What are the chances of him going out with a BANG, being the MAIN MAN on the park, letting everyone see what they're going to miss?
He is probably the worst referee for wanting to be in the 'centre' of things and I'm just a wee bit worried. I refereed for years and know that your best games were when you were hardly seen - Dallas doesn't fit in with that. I know, if we can't beat the 'Well on this day of days we probably don't deserve the League, but IF things are a wee bit sticky in the first 20/25 minutes or so and IF there's a bit of an opportunity at our end what are the chances of him doing what he did after the 'coin' incident? His pal Davis isn't there (this weekend at least), but Motherwell WILL have a different team out from last week and big Butcher WILL have them fired up (to be fair he has done the same against THEM), so there are going to be plenty of opportunities for Poo to make 'decisions'!
Or is this just paranoia? Mind you, just because you're paranoid doesn't mean you are wrong!
Here's hoping for two party weekends in a row.
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paul, lets say you get to cut your own TV deal, does this just mean you will show your own home games?
I would guess away games will require the oppositions permission in order to get it on tv, internet etc.
Now given the fact that they know they wont be able to match present revenue by selling subscriptions to their own fans, surely they will need a cut from the big boys. Perhaps they will set up a collective and try and bleed the big boys.
They cant and wont just take what they are offered, they need cash as much if not more to try and compete.
What about cup and euro games? the media rights are owned by the FA and UEFA.
KEY POINT Who gets the advertising cash? surely this will be huge maybe even more than the tv. Just think millions of viewers/consumers world wide, target age 18-40.3 minute slot for top of the table clash aint going to be cheap!
I dont see the middle order just rolling over, they maybe small but they are not stupid, they will want more than a few crumbs from the top table.
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