 Friday, June 03, 2005
Celtic share price leaps by 25%
In the last month Celtic have gone from Champions Elect to runners up.
They have also lost their most successful manager in 30 years.
Against this backdrop of disappointment and uncertainty the share price has risen 25% - since the day Malcolm Glazer bought Manchester United.
This might just be a coincidence; lots of small shareholders like you and me might have come into some spare cash and decided to buy Celtic shares at the same time.
Alternatively large shareholders might have taken up positions based on the sudden expectation that significant changes are ahead for Celtic.
Thanks to our friend GM for the tip.
Thanks also to my new good friend Tom Shields at the Sunday Herald. Some of you suggested during the week that Tom had made a “Lazy” mistake and got my name wrong in last weekends Sports Diary.
Far from it. Tom has opened up a potential new career for me by giving me a less ‘ethnic’ surname, which seems to be the habit among Celtic supporting sports journalists.
Thanks Tom. If Bill Gates ever gets computer networks running smoothly this might come in handy. For this selfless act of camaraderie you have now eclipsed Angus Og in my estimations (who is still know as Kevin Reilly in Carfin by the way).
230 Comments:
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Hi Paul,
another long time lurker here, I was just telling my work mates this very fact spooky !! But anyone reading your blogs over the last months would have fore seen this
BB
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Excuse me for taking this from the last thread but it my have some barring on why shares have gone up:
Paul67 any thoughts as to the comments on the excellent rumour mill at ETims
that WGS has been a handed £10 million transfer budget. Also “ This entire sum is due to be raised from the up and coming share issue which, despite what you’ve heard, will not take in £15 million. Apparently the projected figure is nearer to £23.5 million which you have to admit is an incredibly specific figure to just pluck out of thin air.”
Fargo, I'm convinced now that you are `the real deal' and not as I had previously posted a farrago. Anybody got an interest free loan for a poor Celtic supporter to buy shares? Please!!!!!
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Pity I have hee haw in the way of spare cash at the moment.
BTW Paul, any chance of commenting on the points raised by myself and others last night regarding MG and ManYoo on the last thread?
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Bigchipsuk and everyone else for that matter when posting a big URL go to www.tinyurl.com and paste it there, it porduces a condensed URL whixh yiou can link to and it will reduce the size so that it doesnt mess the whole page.
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As I've said before, I keep my eye on the share price. What I've not had a chance to do is compare the movement against other clubs e.g Newcastle or other peers. This can be done in Yahoo Finance if you have the time that would give an indication whether Celtic are bucking the trend or it is a natural reaction to Glazer in the Market.
Overall the volume of shares being traded is still low so I would be surprised if it is a demand issue.
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Brilliant work Paul. Folowed the site since the beginning and your foresight has been second to none. Great reading and spot on predictions, keep the good work up.
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Thanks Anonymous 12.26pm. I didn't know that.
http://tinyurl.com/7az4h
Consider it done!
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I'm not sure that the increase in share price is completely relevant to MG's takeover. Surely all football PLCs would have risen by similar margins over this period if that is the case. I haven't checked them all, but I know that Newcastle have levelled for a couple of months now.
This time last year, Celtics share price had fallen from around 75p to 65p in a month where we had just won a league and cup double.
I don't think the fluctuation is significant enough to suggest iminent entry to the EPL or other similar shakeup, as the current share price is still way below what it was last year.
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As I posted on the last thread that a £15M share issue is not a lot given the amount of players we require. I see from CelticBhoy, via Etims, that it is now rumoured to be £23.5. That we only get £10M is a big disappointment that will only buy us:
Niemi - £2M
Bellamy or Another - £5M
Riordan - £1M
Left Back - £2M
We also need a playmaker, a la Lubo. So what about Figo I hear he is on a Bosman. Great player and why not try & get him. Wages may be a problem but at least we could enquire.
We know players with high profiles (Beckham) keep a team in the news and sell merchandise which means more Revenue & a Higher Share price.
If we want to be a part of the big revolution we need to evaluate the risks and take the chance. If we are always prudent we may be left at the turnstyle!!
StevieD
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Anon 12:44, Figo, more of a winger isn't he? Too old, too inconsistent, too expensive.
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Figo's wages are reported to be in the region of £80K per week - DOUBLE what Bellamy is said to be demanding.
Hence Figo would cost us £4M PER YEAR, even without a transfer fee! And would he want to play in he SPL anyway? He was reported to be keen on a move to Old Trafford to play alongside Liam Miller!
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StevieD
You are right enough 10 million from 23 isn’t what we would have hoped for especially your breakdown of possible signings. As well as a playmaker we need a new centrehalf and where would the money be to buy Hartley? In fact the more you look at it there is going to have to be a good deal more than £10 million spent.
As for Figo it seems he has been offered to EPL clubs and Real Madrid would pay half his £80,000 a week wages. I don’t see it do you
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Paul.Great site.
I have held back from buying more shares in case there is a share issue. At least then we can put our money back into the club at the time of asking and show our committment (as fans)to future growth of our club.
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Sorry Paul but I have to disagree on this one,but the fact is just over 100,000 shares have now been "sold" or "exchanged" hands within the Bhoys club recently in a short period.
As you said before,someone has to SELL at this price before anyone can buy them,is there something they know that the rest of us know?
This only(I know this is big money to the average fan) amounts to over 50 thousand pounds of cash money,hardly a big investment for all the big money that is being talked about and being floated about the inner circles & internet.
It only takes a few well heeled fans with a bit of spare cash or a good hand full of average fans or one or two middle class fans(does that mean you Tom64?) being currently directly by your good self.
I don't want to bum about it or take even less pleasure telling this fact but it has to be said to stand my arguement up.
I for one have invested in the last few months a quantity of Celtic shares that equates to one fifth of this amount you talk about.
Half this same amount of shares exchanged hands in the last few months even before we were still in danger of loosing the manager,most of our players,the league and no concrete information about investment for the future.
"Alternatively large shareholders might have taken up positions based on the sudden expectation that significant changes are ahead for Celtic"
You have to think,maybe large shareholders have taken the steps and SOLD also!
It's only one of various reasons that I for one and many others have been able to BUY the shares on the market,unless you have evidence to the conterary to support this which I and others in my company would be eager to here. Is it your own idea this is the "fact" maybe
Lazy journalism on your part maybe?
Big question is Why would anyone sell at this sensitive time of great riches in the future?
"This might just be coincidence"
"small share holders might have come into some spare cash"
Good get out of gaol card to support the argument you say above?
There are two sides to a coin Paul67 that I have realised a long time ago.
The daily rags have a very NEGITIVE spin on CELTIC stories to sell newspapers which is quickly condemned by many supporters including myself which is highly justified for obvious reasons.
CQN has an equally very unhealthy POSITIVE spin on Celtic events at times(not always,mostly healthy POSITIVE spin)
The truth of the matter readers is,the truth always lies in most cases firmly between the NEGITIVE SPIN AND THE POSITIVE SPIN.
Don't mistake this PAUL67 as a personal attack,that it is not,rather a search of reason.
Yours in GLASGOW CELTIC
Cabbage
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How about we take Figo on loan, with Real Madrid paying 3/4 of his wages?
And I noticed a Newcastle Utd fan site this morning reporting that Bellamy is in no rush to leave the Toons, and may even sit it out well into the coming season in the expectation that Souness will be given the boot. Apparently only 1% of their fans like the guy (according to a survey), so it is believed to be a strong possibility.
So why not offer to take Bellamy on loan again for another season? But would he still be eligible to play for us in the CL if he is a loan player?
As for the £10M budget scenario, how about:
Kenny (Sheff U) keeper for £1.5M
Riordan for £1M
Bellamy 1 yr loan £1M
Hartley £1M
CSKA left back £2M
This leaves £3.5M for a couple of good solid centre backs. And we can get Robbie Keane to sign a pre-contract to pick him up on a Bosman at the end of next season to replace Bellamy when he returns to Newcastle.
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Apologies for not posting yesterday to congratulate you on the BIG story, I had to read it a load of times to take it all in. It definately sounds good. I dont think you should reveal any sources although i feel there's more to it that has convinced you beyond doubt that this is the case, you should reveal what you can to prove to the doubters that you have done the homework and its not just an optimistic view on the situation.
On todays note, I too have heard the £23.5m figure and thought it was a bit too precise to be a guess, now that its been mentioned here too i'm getting a bit 'excited'!!
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Afternoon all, I don't think that the possible share issue is for short term funding of players. The new season starts in about 8 weeks. I would imagine that funding for players will come from 'existing banking facilities' as Paul has shown before.
A share issue would take rather longer to arrange. In saying that maybe they can borrow against it. Don't know.
Fingers crossed on Bellamy, Keane, Riordan and Niemi. I get the impression GS is better at getting leaks out to the media than MO was.
It's gonna get exciting....
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Bigchipsuk
Seems sensible to me, maybe you can put it to WGS affter he gets back from his holiday in Spain, from where, according to the Evening times 2/6/05, he keeps in contact with CP!
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Figo? youve got to be joking.
Let Figo go to Bolton and do what Macca done for Man City, what Kluivert done for Newcastle or what Juninho done for Celtic. Im not one for overpaid journeymen myself.
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PS. This figureof £10-23.5m, as Paul talked about before, will probably a few years' budget rolled together, which doesn't help matters but its still a lot more than we've come to expect recently.
So start the rebuilding Gordon we're behind you all the way.
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Interesting article I found from back in 2003, makes interesting reading with regards to what has gone on recently.
Dermot Desmond - the billionaire majority shareholder in Celtic and a Manchester United shareholder - has slammed clubs, broadcasters and administrators running soccer in England and Scotland.
In an astonishing attack, Desmond slams the "cartel" behind football both North and South of the border which he says is thwarting competion.
He says the current soccer tv rights system is illegal and calls for an independent regulator to oversee the game.
He spoke exclusively to the BBC's Business Editor Jeff Randall on BBC Radio Five Live.
Mr Desmond said: "The Premier League clubs � the smaller ones that is - have issued a mandate to the executive that they don't want Celtic and Rangers in the Premiership because they might undermine their position in the league so the Premier league executive are under guidance from those majority of clubs, and again I don't think that is competition and I don't think that's in the interests of football.
"Do you take Real Madrid and Barcelona and Juventus out of the European championship because people don't want to play them because they are too good?
"I don't think that's the way to go forward, i'ts illegal, it's wrong and it's not in the interests of clubs."
Mr Desmond continues: "I prefer the Italian model... which would create balance whereby the top clubs negotiate with the smaller clubs, that's reality.
"To say that all clubs are equal - forget about it. Manchester United have five times the revenue [of most other clubs]."
He claimed the current system for deciding television rights to the Premiership was "not transparent."
He said: "It's not in the interests of football and something has to be done about it."
Dermot Desmond calls for an independent regulator to decide on how television rights are organised, with members decided by the Minister for Sport.
He says: "The resistance is in the main from those clubs that feel threatened by Celtic and Rangers who may get relegated or be denied a Champions League place...
"We've carried out surveys and reviews and neutral people want to see Celtic and Rangers in the Premier League in the UK.
"They would bring in excess of �100 million a year to the Premiership.
"UEFA and FIFA do not object to Celtic and Rangers joining the Premiership if the SFA and the FA agree so it is not a legal restriction.
"I think football would be better in Scotland and football would be better in the Premiership."
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That was from Declan in Derry. I'm at work sorry to have to sign anonymous
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Whilst I'm at the PC, I suggest CELTIC SUPPORTERS log onto CELTIC.NET and click on the
"DESMOND BLASTS DIVISIVE FORCES"
Maybe in DD's first or rare address to the supporters via the Club website it should be more POSITIVE,If he and the rest of the board weren't so good at distancing themselves from the supporters in the Celtic View,Celtic website,AGM etc then they might have an idea why these very circumstances have born fruit.
Obviously we seem to disgust Mr Desmond & Co,hence the reason he has to tell us so publicly rather that clear the air,during his consistent abuse of the fans again and again in this statement.
He may think we are a minority.
I honestly don't know what to make of his comments!
What does anyone else think about it?
Cabbage
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Can someone cut and paste the dermot desmond article on here
Cheers
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Cabbage, clearly he and his colleagues have taken this criticicm personally, and are hurt as a result. But before the inevitable backlash can I just ask that anyone trying to drive DD and his fellow power-brokers out of our club has suitably reliable, competent and trustworthy replacements lined up first.
These guys obviously put in a lot of effort for the plc, and they are consistently subjected to much more public and personal criticicm than your average plc board member.
It's not an easy job, and while they shouldn't expect the public's plaudits for doing that job, they obviously feel that they are criticised too much for simply trying to keep the ship on course.
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Cabbage,
Although I follow your line of argument
I think you are being grossly unfair in comparing Paul and the site to the tabloids and your typical Scottish football hack.
Paul's stories often do put a positive spin on Celtic events. I wouldn't dispute that. They are often an interpretation and analysis of "facts" through green and white spectacles. I don't think Paul hides this and indeed, what would you expect from a Celtic website?!
In contrast the tabliods claim to be an impartial and objective medium. Yet despite this charade we all know they work to a very specific agenda when it comes to Celtic.
They deliberately distort fact and present it as truth. If it suits their purpose they will even just make the whole thing up (Thugs and Thieves).
Has Paul ever been guilty of this? I don't think so.
You also fail to acknowledge one huge factor. Ask yourself these questions:- Do Keevins, Traynor, McNee etc ever give their readers the right to reply?
Do the tabloid hacks ever enter into a reasoned debate with those wishing to question their stories?
Do they ever acknowledge the validity of other viewpoints and even accept that their own stance may not always be correct?
Do they let their readers take the story forward to different and opposing stances?
Do they hell. We know Paul does - and often on a daily basis. Surely this pluralist right to reply provided by CQN acts as a counter balance to any perceived spin in the original story.
Paul knows the readership here are as likely to challenge his points as take his word as gospel.
You prove that point!
Anyway, in short I think you do Paul a real diservice with your comparison.
Hail! Hail!
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Desmond's disappointment
Stephen Sullivan
From the press conference at which his departure was announced to his farewell speech on the hallowed turf of Celtic Park, it was notable that no-one was thanked more often by Martin O’Neill in his final week as manager than Dermot Desmond.
Notable because the outgoing Hoops manager’s genuine, heart-felt gratitude to the club’s board and majority shareholder stood completely at odds with the popular portrayal of O’Neill as a man who has spent the past five years in perpetual conflict with Celtic’s powerbrokers.
For Desmond, there is certainly a bitter irony to the fact that, having spent the best part of the past few years faced with accusations that he and the board were driving their manager away, it’s only with great reluctance and a heavy heart that his fellow Irishman and close friend is now torn from his post.
His only hope is that, while O’Neill will unquestionably be missed, the manner in which this most dignified of managers has conducted himself during his time in charge can become a standard to which everyone connected with the club can, and will, aspire.
Speaking exclusively to the Celtic website, Desmond said: “With Martin, as I’ve said many times before, I recruited a manager and ended up with a friend, as did my family.
“That relationship will not just terminate because he’s left the football club, although obviously I feel terribly sorry about the circumstances that are preventing him from continuing as Celtic manager.
“I can only stress how grateful I am to him for all that he’s given to the club and the fans over the past five years, and for the part he’s played in passing on the baton to Gordon Strachan.
“The spirit and co-operation between Martin and Gordon has been fantastic, and it really should be the norm for everything regarding this football club.
“Sadly, we on the board have never been given the slightest recognition for getting Martin and helping him build the team that has been so successful over the past years. Instead, we’ve had to put up with constant speculation about him going when, as he said last week, he’s never wanted to leave and still doesn’t.
“But the fans should not believe that there is a division between Martin and the board when no division ever existed. Perhaps, rather than criticising a board who work tirelessly on behalf of this club, the fans should take their ire out on the those who make these false and outlandish statements without any comeback whatsoever.
“I think there is an attempt to divide the Celtic family in some sections of the media and, unfortunately, a significant portion of the fans are allowing this to happen. I think that’s a great pity because I had always felt and hoped that we had a tradition of unity greater than that.”
For a man who, over 12 years, has invested significantly more in Celtic than any individual in the club’s history, it has become an increasingly galling and disillusioning experience for Desmond to read and hear the public perception of his and the board’s efforts.
As he he reflected this week: “At this club, it seems the more money you invest, the more abuse you receive.”
Even so, and though long since resigned to the thankless nature of his role, the past season has represented something of a nadir in this respect for Celtic’s majority shareholder, whose disenchantment with a malcontent minority element of the club’s support peaked with the booing of Brian Quinn during a half-time presentation to Villarreal’s Submari CSC on April 2nd.
For Desmond, this public show of disrespect for the club’s dedicated chairman not only represented the most powerful deterrent to any potential investors – it also left him and many of those currently devoting time and money to the club sorely tempted to remove themselves from the firing line.
He said: “For me, the biggest disappointment of this season besides Martin’s departure was the reception that Brian was given by the fans that day. I’ll be honest – it changed my attitude towards the club.
“For the first time, I questioned whether I wanted to be associated with the kind of fans, albeit a minority, who would abuse and taunt a man who has put so much of his time and energy into developing their club. I was embarrassed and disgusted by the whole episode.
“I’m used to the fact that the bulk of the board’s work goes unrecognised, but at times like those I feel that I’d prefer just to be a fan - but a real fan, not one so fickle and quick to criticism that he boos someone without any justification whatsoever. I don’t want to be subject to that kind of betrayal.
“As far as I’m concerned, what those fans did to Brian Quinn undermined the whole tradition of this club and also made it extremely unattractive for anyone considering putting money in, including myself.
“But what I’ve always said is that, while I believe we are running this club well and responsibly, if the fans or any individual believes they can do a better job and wants to invest in the club, I would never refuse their funds. I’ve never heard the fans say: ‘Let’s double the price of season tickets so we can use the funds to buy players.’”
Attempting to justify, even partially, the jeering of Quinn – not to mention Fergus McCann before him – may amount to a defence of the indefensible in Desmond’s eyes, but the club’s majority shareholder is nevertheless acutely aware that the simplistic and insatiable demand for big spending, regardless of the consequences, is simply being relayed from the country’s sports pages.
He said: “Every time I have the misfortune to see a Scottish newspaper, there always seems to be the same rubbish written about ‘splashing the cash,’ ‘speculating to accumulate’ and ‘opening the purse-strings.’ Let me tell you, these are passwords to bankruptcy.
“The Celtic board is too intelligent and has too much respect for the tradition of the club to jeopardise its existence by giving in to such nonsense, and it surprises me fans have such short-term memories in this respect. It seems that they don’t remember how close the club came to going out of business 12 years ago.
“At the same time, people should also remember that we have actually made substantial investment in the playing squad, despite headlines to the contrary.”
Of some consolation to Desmond is that, in Strachan, he believes the club have appointed a manager highly unlikely to be influenced by whims and opinions that tend to change as quickly as our fair city’s weather.
“Gordon will make his own mark on Celtic Football Club and he’ll do it his way,” Desmond enthused. “He certainly isn’t the kind of man to listen or be dictated to by anyone.
“Martin knew, as we did, that substantial changes needed to be made this summer and we had discussed with him a major overhaul of the playing squad. Now that task has passed to Gordon and he doesn’t need to be told by anyone about what’s needed.
“He has his own ideas and everyone at the club, in particular the Celtic board, is completely committed to supporting those and giving Gordon all the backing we can.”
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Hi
what about matthew upson, about to leave on a free from birmingham as he wants to play in Europe,
He is a decent player
if we got him bellamy and robbie keane that would be perfect.
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I would advise people to read MON statement about how he feels he was treated by said press and one specific indivdual who MON says should look into his own past of shame.
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I've just read the article on the Celtic FC web site and I can't say I disagree with anything that was said. I'm not an apologist for the board but the man has a point.
I was especially interested to read Dermot's comments about the booing of quinn acting as a deterrent to new investors. For those of you that diagree with this comment can I point you at this article from the times?
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,8305-1635636,00.html
If you cant be bothered reading the whole article the section that I believe is relevant is this:
"Cubic Expression, the investment vehicle of Magnier and McManus, would have to sell, the logic went, because if it did not, it would be perceived that the deal had collapsed because of pressure from the fans and United would therefore be considered too volatile to be worthy of a takeover for five years at least. As a result, the share price would crumple, which meant that Magnier and McManus had to take Glazer’s offer or wipe almost one third from their investment. The irony being that the louder the supporters shouted, the more inevitable the deal became."
There has been some comment on this site recently about the booing of Larsson and Liam Miller but none that I have seen concerning the booing of Quinn. Perhaps we should be giving a bit more thought to exactly who deservers our support and who does not.
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Celticbhoy
The ETims figure is not what I have been working on.
Cabbage, baiting me with the “Lazy” taunt, please.
The market works in a more efficient way than most people think. Short of someone selling or buying a significant volume the price will often be determined by buy and sell orders which are left open.
In the market Celtic shares are always available at a price each trader has determined to sell at in advance – in other words thousands of Celtic shares are always for sale.
The average price people have been prepared to sell at has clearly risen.
Many thanks Wee Jinky
Not heard what DD has been saying yet.
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Yet more confused reporting on share issues and transfer budgets. I think Paul clarified this before, the two are not the same. The transfer budget is available due to amortisation and other accounting trickery. The £15m (or 23.854m - I added the .054 for a laugh) is different money. I believe this is preferential shares anyway and as such won't be offered to ourselves. It looks to me like this share issue will allow DD to increase his investment in Celtic without increasing his percentage increase, he then doesn't have to take control of the club, in teh future he will be able to cash in more chips though and his investments potential is then increased. Paul only knows where this money might be spent?
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I don't see that much wrong with Desmond's comments. Personally, I have never agreed with booing the board or the team. It adds fuel to the fire for the media.
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Hey, Antti Niemi is becoming more affordable by the day... Two days ago he was supposedly being touted at £4M. Then yesterday all the stories were saying £3M. Now it seems that he's had a further million knocked off his price:
http://itv-football.co.uk/Teams/Southampton/story_154039.shtml
"Harry: Niemi won't leave on cheap
Harry Redknapp insists Antti Niemi will not leave Southampton for less than £2million.
..."It is like everything else, if Celtic want him they will have to pay the price. It will take at least £2million. That's what the club paid for him," Redknapp vowed."
OK. £1M now and £1M at the end of the season. Deal done!
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I was embarassed by the booing of Brian Quinn as well as the treatment Fergus got unveiling the league flag.
The article might sound like whining from DD, but what are these guys supposed to do ? We expect them to ne custodians of our club, we want them to ensure we don't get back to the days of the Kellys and the Whites. So they act conservatively and are prudent with the finances while still spending more than at any other time in our history.
Do we want DD to say "for every £5 Rangers spend I'll spend £10"? Do we want a Peter Risdale the fan's friend till they found out he had destroyed the club?
Personally speaking and from what I have read along the way, I think the board are doing not a bad job. Sure we'll always want better players want to win everything in sight that's part of being a supporter, but we also want a club that's relatively financially sound and going in the right direction. We entrust the board with that resposibility. If we have read the accounts and don't like what we see. If we think the club is being mismanaged then we can complain. But let's face it the majority of fans' opinion of the board comes from the tabloids and the radio - and what do any of them know about running a PLC?
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I was pleased to read DD’s comments on the clubs web page – it’s about time the fans who booed Brian Quinn (and Fergus McCann beforehand) were challenged to consider the consequences of their (free) choice. The fans who boo are perfectly entitled to their opinion – God knows they pay enough money in season tickets to have earned that right. Personally, I didn’t agree with their actions in either BQ or FMc case. What the statement from DD does confirm though is exactly how this action affected our biggest investor….(and the man behind the MON appointment / retention over the last 5 years)…and I think it’s pretty concerning. There’s a very simplistic analysis of this that would have helped avoid there being a need felt by some fans to boo:
1) If the Board were better at informing the fans in their PR and therefore counteracting what they (the board) know is anti Celtic/ sensationalist journalism.
2) If fans refused to read / believe the sensationalist and one dimensional reporting of Celtic’s financial prudence.
Simplistic analysis I know – and not easy to achieve – maybe someone could start a Blog in the meantime that would help both sides of the equation in 1) and 2) above to understand each other better………….
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Can someone post the MON comments please?
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Just read DD comments and tell you what I agree with 90% of it.
I was disgusted by the treatment Quinn got that day, and if it hurt DD that bad then I fear for the future.
Why do I fear for the future look at what happened at Manure when the fans annoyed the most powerful people at their club.
As for the press he calls it spot on but begs the question why are celtic not improving there own media outlets to get the message across.
Must admit the piece comes across a bit egotisical and a bit look at me im great.
That’s not right and really the board in a perfect world should not be seen and take satisfaction from the success on the park knowing they have contributed.
Overall I say well done DD when you put your head over the trench you certainly make good reading.
Wonder what negative spin will be put on this as we have a lot of no bad press recently.
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I agree totally with his comments about Quinn and I also felt sad at the way McCann was booed after we the league and stopped 10-in-a-row.
I don’t think that anyone on this site who could afford to invest in Celtic wouldn’t.
But why has it taken DD two months since the Villareal game to make his feelings known, ( is he getting knock backs from investors this is not to say they are not justified just that it seems the wrong time to make this statement. Especially after losing the league to a grossly inferior Motherwell let alone a Rangers club which is crippled by debt.
I have no doubts that if even the minority of fans who he is having a go at seen him leading then they would follow.
I am sure he will know that the fans have put their money into Celtic via the various share issues, we have gone deep into our pockets and spend a huge percentage of our disposable income on Celtic week in and out and will do so in the next few weeks via season tickets and new strips etc.
At a time when there is a good feeling among fans why come out with this now?
If he can’t find it in him to thank the majority of the support for their support before having a go at us why should we defend him?
Part of this site has been to try and put a positive spin on what Celtic are doing and to try and make up for the lack of the bulk of the boards work going “unrecognised”. If it does who is to blame for that, the fans?
Paul and others here have pointed out the total lack of communication for CP to the fans.
Charm offensive where are thou DD.
Where was the big story vision for Celtic laid down by DD in this or any other article to get us behind the board?
I for one moment do not think that anyone on the board doesn’t hurt when we lose they are all fans.
I for one want DD and BQ leading us forward but if they are not there I will still be.
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is there any chance of opening a new board paul? this is a right pain to read today what with having to scroll left and right all the time.
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This is along the lines of what Paul was saying here at the time: http://www.celticquicknews.co.uk/2005/04/no-harm-in-booing-is-there.shtml
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"I'm well aware that Celtic with Gordon Strachan now in charge will be doing everything they can to get the title back. But while that is always a possibility, I am not worried about the challenge. It hasn't bothered me for 18 years - so I don't see why it should bother me now" - David Murray
Me thinks the lady doth protest too much.
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Wee Jinky,
"the truth always lies in most cases firmly between the NEGITIVE SPIN AND THE POSITIVE SPIN"
All I'm saying is read between the lines,that where you tend to find the truth more often than not,Pauls not right all the time,just as much as the daily rags aren't wrong all time.at no point did I say Paul doesn't let anyone reply!That's what I'm doing,right?
PAUL67 takes the right stance of printing the mostly positive actions coming from CP,
you said:
"deliberately distort fact and present it as truth"
That's all I did was point out in Pauls Article above.(overly POSITIVE)you only have to read the "might" on a few ocassions,but I'm sure Pauls a big bhoy,he can answer for himself.
Paul67 the "Lazy" quote was certainly NOT a taunt,isn't that what you are fighting against? I dare to question you? yet I'm given the diservice of a one line "Lazy quote"If you don't want to reply that is fine but don't think I was "taunting you" as I said far from it,it was a very reasonable point of view from me.Your views are usually on a par, the same lines as myself but obviously my view this time maybe wrong.
Cabbage
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Re;DD
The EGO has definetly landed....
The real reasons for BQ being booed:
A minority of the fans are ignorant-FACT
The Celtic PR department are at best inept, so the fans (including those mentioned above) go to the tabloids to get the "insider stories" Their jobs is.....(we have heard it on this site 100 times so I wont repeat).... Do you hear of any Big european Club/or Company for that matter moaning about their press coverage....
We were getting beat at half-time by a mediocre team
We were getting beat by a mediocre team because there has been a lack of investment in the team for several seasons...
The managers job is to take the pressure of the players and the board's job is to take the pressure off the manager. Taking the flak is part of that job.
With regards receiving little credit....look at the turnover line and your underlying investment value....you will have all the thanks you can need...If its not enough Im sure there are others waiting patiently...
On a different subject: Paul- can we have a revised budget pretty please...It would be a good yardstick to hold up to the board with their summer spend....
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Cabbage, I gave you a 7 line response....
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At 2:38 PM, Anonymous said…
"is there any chance of opening a new board paul? this is a right pain to read today what with having to scroll left and right all the time."
Is this anything to do with the long URL I posted earlier Paul? (My screen is fine though - no L or R scrolling required.)
If it is, feel free to amend my earlier post to put the "TinyURL" in place of the one I cut & pasted.
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If anyone has read MON comments can they please elaborate on who he was referring to when he said:
"It was also galling to have aspersions cast over my dignity by the journalists in question, and one in particular who might do well to reflect on his own past before pointing the finger at those of us with considerably less to be ashamed of"
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Paul
I have spent a little time with Shareholders United recently and they are formulating a plan which may be worthy of an individual blog on your site. In simple term, their idea is now to sell out to Glazer but bank the money (esimates at 140m given the £3 share price) instead of distributing it back to individual shareholders. The reason for this would be that if the sword of damocles was to fall on glazer's revolution then they would be in a position to buy back a significant portion of the club - especially if the share price was well below the £3 paid.
There are more details to be flushed out in this but I think it may be worthy of comment from the regulars and will support your line on the strength of fan ownership.
CQN family, let me know what you think.
McStay
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Bigchipsuk,
I like your thinking regarding getting Keane on a pre-contract (I think we could do this in January?).
If there is one glaring failing that has been shared by Celtic's board and management alike it is the inability to capitalise on the 'good' side of the Bosman ruling.
What possible sense can there be in blowing £2M-£3M of a limited budget on someone we can get for nothing a year form now? That sort of cah will pay his wages for 2 years!
Much as I love to slag off TFOD at every opportunity, they HAVE taken advantage of Bosman. Get Boumsong for nowt, sell 6 months later for a few million. We seem to be one of the few real 'buying' clubs around.
A link (from another site?) to an article showed that at the last transfer window all clubs in France, Spain, Italy and Germany combined only spent £10M.
We must get smarter with our signing policy and wage structure. Sure, be prepared to pay out big money to excellent players but make the basic wage low(ish) and make the bonuses very attractive.
You can never, ever lose money selling a player you got for nothing.
Regards to all
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BigChipSuk, I have no powers of edit, only you can do this, and yes it is your post to blame.
McStay, Sharesholders United have a very interesting idea there. Agree it is worth following up on.
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Looks like Mr.Sullivan on CELTIC.NET and his headline
"Demond blasts divisive forces"
has been dropped from RED alert to GREEN alert,now on the website it reads,
"DESMONDS DIAPPOINTMENT"
didn't take long for them to judge the reactions on CQN.at least you know they are listening.
Cabbage
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Looks like Mr.Sullivan on CELTIC.NET and his headline
"Demond blasts divisive forces"
has been dropped from RED alert to GREEN alert,now on the website it reads,
"DESMONDS DISPPOINTMENT"
didn't take long for them to judge the reactions on CQN.at least you know they are listening.
Cabbage
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Liam H.
I was under the impression (from listening to Clyde it has to be said) that players can sign a pre-contract with another club at any time e.g Petrov could sign a new four year deal with us tomorrow and sign a pre-contract with for four years later with another team the next day - provided the other team contacted Celtic and told them theis was happening.
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Timmy7,
Thanks for clearing that up for me. So many rules to keep track of now! why I remember the day when...
When you say they can sign a pre-contract any time does that mean only in terms of number of years in advance? I only ask as I'm fairly sure they still have to do it during transfer windows.
Mind you, I could well be wrong about this. It has been known ;-)
Regards
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DD comments are a DISGRACE. Who pays the bills at CP? Us, the fans. And yet he asks why have we not demanded the season books be doubled in price!!! What percentage of your income do you give to Celtic Dermott? Bet it's less than mine.
This man has an incredible ability to offend the people he so desperately needs to keep his shares being worth anything. Once again on the back of a positive week, Celtic manage to throw out a story to give the tabloids some fuel.
DD? You couldn't even spell Public relations.
qmark
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timmy7
In theory you are correct but in practice no club would every sign a pre-contract with a player that had over a year to run on their existing contract. In your example Celtic would need to give the other team permission to speak to Petrov rather than that team simply telling Celtic that they were speaking to him.
Pre-contracts are typically signed in the January transfer window when a player will become a free agent in the close season. According to UEFA players in this position are free to discuss their future with other clubs without seeking the approval of their current club. While this is the UEFA guidline it is worth pointing out that National Associations have their own interpretation of this rule e.g The English FA does not allow communication in the example above until the 3rd weekend in May. I'm not sure what the exact regulation is in Scotland.
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Timmy,
Clubs can only talk to players in the last six months of their contract...this is the time when pre-contract agreements can be signed. If players could sign a pre-contract agreement at any time, then Mourinho and Chelsea wouldn't be in hot water for tapping up Cole.
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qmark. Just how exactly do you propose that DD invests more money in the club?
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qmark
Im sorry but ive jst read DD comments and i cant see how you can deem them offensive.
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Tony (2:05pm)
The day after Quinn was booed at CP whilst making a presentation to Villareal I posted a message saying how disgusted I was at the way a large proportion of the support treated the man. I agree with DD in that " I questioned whether I wanted to be associated with the kind of fans, albeit a minority, who would abuse and taunt a man who has put so much of his time and energy into developing their club. I was embarrassed and disgusted by the whole episode."
It's easy for everyone else to sit there and say- "pile your money in Quinn, Desmond etc." Would you? Jim Royale would answer that question beautifully.
GingerAvenger
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Anon 3.40
There are plenty of things that could be considered a disgrace. The actions of those fans that embarrassed our club by booing BQ during the presentation to the Villareal CSC being one example.
DD has as much right to complain as anyone else. He has ploughed large amounts of his, admittedly huge, fortune into Celtic and all he gets in return is criticism from an ignorant mob who only want him to throw more cash at the club. For once he has decided to hit back and I, for one, don't blame him one bit. Certainly, I'd be overjoyed if he suddenly decided to gift, say, £50M to the club. But that should be his choice and he should not be the subject of vile invective should he choose to do otherwise.
So what if you spend a greater % of your income on Celtic? Is this now some new measure of how much of a fan you are? A guy who earns £20k per year is better than a fan on £22k?
It amused me that those who justify there endless sniping at the board for not backing MoN financially failed to note that MoN himself had nothing but good things to say in terms of the support they gave him. Mind you, see that MoN? He was a right smart cookie that had worked out you can't spend what you ain't got.
Ask yourself whether we are better off for having DD on board. If you reckon not, I'd be delighted to hear your suggestion as a replacement. Presumably someone very rich who would be willing to throw endless amounts of cah at the club rather than seeing it a s a well run, self-sustaining business?
Now I think I'll put my tin hat on and wait for the barrage of abuse (you know the sort "board apologist, rant, fume, yada yada yada...)
Regards to all
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I spent the whole day with the Villareal fans and felt even more angry at the abuse that BQ got. But why after 2 months does DD bring this up?
I want a vision and leadership from CP not criticism (justified or not) when we have just lost the league, manager and had BQ create the PR clanger of the year with his mobile phone. If this was Rangers we would still be on the floor laughing.
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Agree 100% with Dermot Desmond.
I'm glad he qualified that it was a minority of fans, but I wonder if he realises how few the minority probably was?
Like in the Fergus case, it doesn't take many fans creating an almighty din when the vast majority are silent, awaiting a speech. You'd be lucky if it was more than a couple of thousand out of 60,000. And they embarrassed the club big time as our Chairman welcomed the supporters of a club who ironically were there because of their admiration for the Celtic support!
I've met Brian Quinn on a couple of occasions, including a bar in Amsterdam with his sons as we celebrated the first but not last of MON's European successes.
Unless this guy is an actor of John Gielgud proportions, let me tell you the club means as much to him as the regulars on the blog.
Because of the worldwide size of our support however, the criticism of even a small minority still equates to a lot of people.
People who defend the right to slag off players during games often resort to the ".....he's getting £25,000 a week, I pay his wages so I can say what I like"
argument.
Brian Quinn get £15,000.
A year.
Like he would settle for that, plus all the hassle without a great love for the club.
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Ginger Avenger,
I just copied the article from the CFC web site as someone had requested it.
I had not made any comments myself.
I can see where DD is coming from.
He has pumped a lot of his own money into the Club as well and often fans ask him to pump more in.
I think the problem lies with communication like many others.
CQN is a good source of explanation of what the situation is in terms of finance, i hope that more people get to know about it through the site.
The club could do more in that respect, they have Celtic TV, their web site and other avenues in which to educate people better.
Otherwise they are left to the red tops and some other sites that are shameful in their pursuit of clicks and financial gain and they are as bad as each other.
If DD left tomorrow where would we be?
EPL dream dead and gone?
A new investor who could run us into more debt than we can manage?
I agree with him, the board should get credit for the work they are doing and have done, if MON was happy with them then that's good enough for me.
It's all about educating those who do not understand.
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I would have to say that I agree with all of those who have defended Desmond's actions. He is as entitled as anyone else to voice his opinion about the reaction of the Celtic support. The fact that he is 100% correct does not even matter. The only two days in my life that I can say I was somewhat embarrassed about the actions of Celtic fans was during the Villareal game and before the opening game of the 98-99 season, where Fergus McCann was booed off the pitch during the raising of the flag. Did any Celtic fan stop to consider that this may have been the reason that McCann never left any money for the club when he sold his shares...being in his position, I'm not sure I would have.
As far as Desmond pumping more money into the club, I agree, I would love to see a donation of 'x' amount of money. However, just because Desmond has the money does not mean he is obligated to give it to Celtic. Consider this....If each of the 80,000 Celtic fans that were in Seville gave up 2 pints A WEEK (or say 4 quid) that would give the manager an extra 16 million A YEAR. How many of these everyday fans are willing to do that? I know a lot of people dig deep already to cough up the money for their season tickets, but there are a lot of other Celtic fans who can definitely afford the 200 quid a year.
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Cabbage,
You made a straight comparison between this site and the tabloids.
The main purpose of my post was to highlight the vast differences between the two.
It is these differences that IMO make CQN an infinitely more honest and accountable medium for presenting Celtic news than any tabloid.
I'm well aware Paul is more than capable of fighting his own corner on this issue.
The purpose of my post wasn't to argue Paul's case but to merely express how I saw matters which, for all I know, could be very different to Paul.
Hail! Hail!
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Just as I will not now ask for DD or anyone else to put in their money (simple because it is their money) please don’t ask me to put in 4 quid or £208 per year more than I do now for myself two kids season tickets, strips Celtic pools, paradise windfall etc. If I had anymore money to spend on Celtic I would upgrade my season tickets.
The last time I looked Celtic were in the unique position as one of the top 20 highest income clubs in Europe because they get more than half of their income directly from the fans.
Celtic fans not putting money into the club is not the issue we do more so than any club.
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Hi all...
Paul, I agree with the majority here that DD was right to say what he has. However, I don't think the fans are solely to blame on this matter. Celtic's PR is terrible, they seem clueless as to how to go about changing this...
I remember when celtic used to show there press conferences in full on their website for free but now you need to pay for it... Now before anyone says we need the money, as far as the celtic replay etc goes, how many people subscribe to this within the UK as they don't get the live matches the same as our overseas brothers..? not many I would imagine. Therefore, shouldn't press conferences be shown in full again free AND ADVERTISE IT AS SUCH? All celtic then need to say to most of the bad 'spin' put on stories is 'watch the whole thing, then see how you feel about such and such a comment' I don't know how often I went to work after watching these conferences and having to correct other celtic supporters over points made by the redtops saying 'thats not how that was said... or it wasn't said in that context etc' The same could be done with one on one interviews with directors etc when needed... The small loss of UK based subscribers would certainly hurt this club less than the magnitude of bad press / bad coverage has on putting Celtic fans in a black mood... Are you more likely to buy that snazzy new T-Shirt when your in a better mood about your club...YES... after all, how many of us take a gift home to the Mrs when we're cheesed off with them? A wiser fan will make a happier fan... and put pressure on the redtops to come clean with there stories.
Small steps... but one way or another, Celtic need to improve radically on their PR... only then, can the fans and this board sing from the same sheet.
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To all our fans that think our board are crap, please tell me and others...............
1, who do you's what to run celtic?
2, would you's be happy with a Murray type?
3, bring back the White's & Kelly's?
4, Jim kerr & King Kenny?
5, someone who doesn't have celtic at heart?
PS the booing of Quinn & Fergus was out of order and our PR needs fixing pretty quick
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While I agree with most - but certainly not all - of DD's comments I can't but help despair at the timing of all this.
After the turmoil and heartache of MON leaving and blowing the league I have been plesently surprised at how quickly a "feelgood factor" has returned to the Celtic support.
Original concerns about the appointment of GS have been replaced with a quiet optimisim and a real excitement about potential new signings.
For the first time in a long while the tabloids have been forced to print a succesion of positive Celtic stories.
Now no one would have expected this to continue for much longer but it is now about to come to an abrupt end thanks to DD.
The tabloid hacks will be delighted at DDs comments. Rest assured tomorrow will see plenty of headlines along the lines of "Celts Chief Blasts Fans" and "Boo Bhoys Could Force Me Out".
Once interpreted by the media his comments will be as ultimately devisive as the boos of fans.
He accuses some in the support of falling into a media trap while at the very same time jumping himself into this head first.
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Celticbhoy,
I understand what you are saying and I hope I didn't offend you with my posting. I was simply to trying to point out that many fans are in the same position as Desmond in that they can afford to give more than they do. By mentioning the 80,000 in Seville, I was using that as number reference rather than a direct call to those 80,000 specifically (of which I was one). I think we can both agree that there are more Celtic fans worldwide than the current 52,000 who pay for season tickets. My point still stands however, that if those who can afford it sacrificed a little, we could achieve a lot. I am not asking those who already plough copious amounts of their income in to Celtic to give even more and stretch their finances to the breaking point. I was simply trying to illustrate that while all of these fans call for Desmond to contribute more, there are those among who could do the same (again, I am probably one of those).
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Wee Jinky you are spot on, this is the issue!
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By total coincedence my colleagues at work in London just presented me with my first framed celtic share for my 40th birthday today. Looks like it might be a wee part of history!
Ayrshirecelt
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Tully 57 4.13
So you were lucky enough to meet BQ in a bar and therefore make an assessment on his loyalty. Well lucky you but how many of us have not had that `privelege' and therefore can only base our perception of him on his comments to the press, which let's face it are always negative. I have never been one to suggest DD put more money in the club but unless the club, in particular DD and BQ, do something to establish a rapport with the ordinary fan then what more can they expect? The PR is absolutely shocking and therein lies the problem. Those who booed (and incidentally I was not one of them) did so out of frustration.This frustration is borne out of the Board's inability to communicate with the ordinary fan...try getting a reply from anyone at the club. If they want respect then I'm afraid they have to earn it.Where is their vision for the club ; what are their immediate and long term plans ; when are they going to tell us their intentions??? We don't need to know the fine detail but hey , why should we have to depend on excellent sites like this to find out what the Club's intentions are ?Ever heard of spin doctors Celtic? David Murray may be an egotistical ass but he sure can put a positive spin on all things connected with his club and thus keep the minions happy. We are not asking that we be deluded like our `friends' on the south side all we ask is that you don't simply ignore us.And while I am at it tell us about your plans to improve ticketing, online services etc.Tell us why this club of ours is so poorly run at these levels.You are after all only its custodians so will we see the club being run in a more efficient manner or not??
Jeromek
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So Desmond issues a statement attacking the fans for booing the chairman. He also adds veiled threats within this statement.
Well Dermott were not for being threatened, put up or shut up. If you feel so strongly take your money somewhere else sell your shares, you would be surprised on the uptake of these shares.
You really dont know the celtic fans do you Desmond. Your either with us or agin us, where are the lads that stood with me when history was made.
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Ayrshirecelt - Wow 59p! you must be very popular. ;)
Happy Birthday old bhoy.
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Aye Anon E Mouse I am not at all popular - just like you ehh?
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Anon E Mouse...less of the old please!
I am 40 too:)
Anon 5.13 you said put up or shut up regarding DD. Do you mean you want him to put more of his money in?
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Anon 5.13
“put up of shut up”. How much more would you like him to put up? He has “put up” more money than anyone else in the history of Celtic.
If your last comment was a threat to bring our club to its knees, you shut up, before your daft remarks cause Celtic more damage by influencing others. Why don’t you try “supporting” Celtic for a change.
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Anon 5.13
Who will you be supporting in 5 years time? It sure as hell won't be Celtic, as with that kind of attitude no one will want to invest in the club.
Wee Jinky. I agree with you that those will be the headlines that will appear tomorrow. However, surely by now very few of us actually read those rags. We know the spin but we don't have to buy into it. To be honest it's good to see that DD cares enough to have been hurt.
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Rob71 - the same team I supported on the slopes of the jungle before you were a twinkle laddie - you?.
If Pauls predictions are correct then there would be no shortage of investors wishing to punt some money into cfc. Not for the right reasons granted but no shortage nonetheless. Niether would there be if Dermott Desmond decided to sell up thats for sure.
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With all due respect Anon, if there are no shortage of investors, why did we have so much trouble underwriting the share issue a few years ago? If Desmond had not underwritten much of it himself, it would never have come to pass.
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Anon 5:13
Your comments are frankly ridiculous and show a level of ignorance reflected in some other posters to this site.
What is it about some supporters who believe that just because you have been very successful in your business career and decide to invest in the Club, that you need to throw untold amounts of money at the team with no regard for fiscal responsibility?
What is it about some of our fans who are rabid in their disdane for those who have made a financial success of their lives?
What is it that makes the same people beleive that matters of common respect and decency do not apply to them and that they can be rude and ignorant to our chairman (and previously to the man who SAVED our club)in front of overseas visitors who are here because of our impeccable behaviour?
DD is spot on with his assessment, albeit the timing could have been better.
The very soul of this great club is at threat from you, we exist in a pathetic environment that would rather see us gone and you are abetting that desire.
Discussion and debate are critical but to deride our own in such a public manner just feeds the sharks who are permanently hungry for such fare.
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Hello blogger and blogees.
succinct commentators.
bandwaggon jumpers.
middle classes.
working classes.
total classes.
marxists.
truth contortionists.
Gerry, wheres ma pint Kelly.
mad ranters
and lazy journalists.
A few people seem to assume that having an interest in Celtic and having a personal fortune adds up to blind investment to buy success in the mould of David Murray and his mysterious minted minions who pop up ocassionally to throw cash at his failed venture. Much to my frustration there are times when I felt cash needed to be spent and it was not forthcoming. As recently as the PR gaff when MON was publicy hinting that he wanted the board to spend and phone messages were being left, willy-nilly, indicating the contrary, that prudence was still the order of the day.
Now I look at the situation after numerous indicators as to the direction of the club and I know that those same frustrations will present themselves in the future (ie now while waiting for the core of the team to be signed), but I also know the future of our team is being guided by people who may have a desire to profit but they will not wreck the club in the process. I think they have a vision of the club which will ultimately provide the stage where we all think we belong, but in a manner which means we are there on a stable basis with the infrastructure surrounding the club to compete with our peers on an even footing.
This club does not have a knee-jerk plan, nor a two, three, four or five year plan. I think we have a dynastic plan, not in the mould of the kellys but in the shape of investors who have the best interests of the club at heart.
I think inventive solutions are being explored to bypass the disrace that call themselves journalists (Paul67 press conference).
I think a change of pastures will come and think how long that rumour has been bandied about, looks like long term thinking to me.
After Martin announced his departure it became obvious that he had a job for life irrespective of the papers various attempts to sign him up elsewhere.
The past weeks have left me with the feeling that love for Celtic is not confined to the loudest singer, the biggest spender or whoever. It is shared by all in the Celtic family, DD too.
I for one will reserve my right to disagree with my brother and find him intolerable and a pain in the proverbial, but I will never put him down in front of strangers or his enemys.
We must always have our voice but we dont need to scream all the time and I think this blog site is a very useful tool to get a message to the board as Mr67 would not have been invited to a press conference had the board not know the nature of the beast. Ooops opened you up to "in the boards pockets" conspiracy there P67.
Lets find more ways to "talk" to the board and push on for supporters representatives on the board.
PS If I have misspelt anything then please feel free to feel your spellchecker is indeed superior.
PPS My eternal thanks to Fergus for saving our club and you have my forgivness for actually taking all that money with you.
Support the family and com oan the ging-er.
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Anyone slating the board should have a long hard think.. do the players play for free? Does the stadium maintain itself. 5 Seasons of sucess and already some of you are sounding like rangers fans.
Does anyone have the MON comments or can they advise where to find them ?
BP
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Anyone slating the board should have a long hard think.. do the players play for free? Does the stadium maintain itself. 5 Seasons of sucess and already some of you are sounding like rangers fans.
Does anyone have the MON comments or can they advise where to find them ?
BP
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Anon 5.13.
DD is definitely 'with' us
You're obviously 'agin' him
Perhaps you're 'agin' us too.
If I was, I'd post something like you did.
Oh and I'd also do it anonomously
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Anon 5.13
That will be the same investors tripping over themselves to be the next in line to be booed.
Watched all your games from the Jungle did you? I suppose you saw the Sex Pistols in '76 too. I forget, you're only a real fan if you stood on 'the slopes' getting pissed on.
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I'd be worried if I'd bought £20k of Celtic shares and didn't understand the respective roles of market makers or institutional investors...
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Neil Lennon is a guest on '90 minutes' on Radio scotland tonight, be interesting to see if they ask him about DD's comments
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I must say another very good article Paul.
This is a very high risk strategy for Glazer / Man U I had not realised how much borrowed money was involved. With circumstances as they are I am not sure at all that he will come close to squeezing the money that he needs out of the tv deals and the fans etc. With the borrowing however comes the enormous pressure to succeed, you have taken the view that he cannot fail because of this. While he can no doubt vastly improve the TV deal and maybe force a league re-structuring including us, there is no guarantee that the vast increase in income will be realised because at the end of the day it is always paid for by the fans.
If I take my own situation, season ticket holder, occasional European adventurer, but not a sky or setanta or Celtic TV subscriber, there are just not enough hours in the day. How much more cash can the club squeeze out of me, not much I tell you.
If I had to guess about the future I would think that the pressures you mention will ensure the British League will happen but will not ensure the gains needed by Glazer to make his business plan work. So while it will be good for us and transform our finances and take us to the next level, Man U could still go into meltdown.
On the DD article, I can’t disagree with anything that he said, the booing was shameful. However our presentation / timing as usual is woeful, what will it take to transform our PR? I thought we had hired professionals. This is yet another own goal off the pitch which is really tiresome and will dominate the papers and radio for days, giving fuel to a negative story that did not exist a couple of hours ago. A first interview with DD in I don’t know how long on our own website should have been a positive story to counterpoint the usual rubbish that the mint spouts and which the media falls for head over heels.
We will never learn!
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Rob 71 - pistols,slits, raincoats, penetration,siouxsie, jam, dammed, clash, Rammones x ray spex ohh the list is endless. Keeping the original memrobila was the key.
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maybe you could sell some of it and buy some shares...
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Marzepan thanks for all the info- very informative.
Thought DD was spot on to be honest. I'm prob a wee bit younger than the average poster on this site and though my dad took me to games when I was young (lifting over the turnstiles and all that) If it hadn't been for McCann I reakon Celtic Football club would have been one of those distant childhood memories like free milk at school etc.
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Whilst I don't disagree with Dermot Desmond, having just checked the BBC website, I'm a little concerned and a little miffed with him.
I don't see why he had to be so public in his condemnation. As the largest shareholder he states that his attitude towards the club changed and that he considered walking away, not wanting to be subject to betrayal. This well respected opinion (respected by potential investors if no one else) is now in the public domain and while it may act as a kick up the backside to the "minority" of fans he refers to, it may also act as a deterent for future investors.
On a slightly larger scale, many were predicting Hearts' Lithuanian contingent upping sticks and heading off following the booing at Hampden and making Hearts the poison chalice for investment. With Desmond having been so vociferous, frank and public with his comments, I can't help feeling that it may have done more harm than good.
Unless of course Celtic incorrectly thought that what is published on the official website stays on the official website...
Just a thought...
TinneyBhoy
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stepjam
You don't disagree with anything DD said (neither do I) but you question the timing. When would be a more appropriate time to put something like this out? Surely better when the season has just ended...everyone will have forgotten about it by the time the new season starts!
The real issue here is that he felt compelled to comment on the diabolical treatment that BQ and FMcC received from so called fans at our own stadium. I can't blame him and can only hope that those who caused these unnecessary and shameful embarassments to the club and the great majority of our loyal support fully appreciate the damage they have done.
As I have said in a previous thread, our Board have been extremely supportive of our managers in recent years and I for one appreciate their efforts.
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who is buying all these shares? who is selling them?
and why?
if it's DD mates buying them, i think, if we have a share issue then it will only be open to existing share holders.
Would that mean that it's only preference share holders that can buy into the new share issue?
What price would the new shares be to buy? the current market price?
aaaaaahhhhhhh so many questions
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I'm guessing the journalist MON was referring to was Jim Traynor who regards himself as some kind of semi-intellectual (honestly!). Anyone know where MON's original quote came from? There is an exclusive interview with him in The Scotsman.
I don't doubt that Quinn, Lawell and Desmond all have Celtic at heart, more so than Fergus who still did what he said on the tin. I do think the communication to the fans is pathetic though.
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Rob 71` already have shares do you ?.
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There seems to be some misconception as to the boards role, sure give credit where credit is due for running a tight ship (especially in this precarious arena), what exactly do they contribute in attracting other funds than those the fans provide, brief supposation but on average if every season book holder spends £1,000 on Celtic season books and merchandise, match day food and stuff, that equates to £53m, turnover is what according to the accounts approx £60m, so the remainder comes from sponsorships, kit suppliers and Uefa, so really no effort or fabulous business acumen in attracting other funds - someone please disprove this for me please, because despite my excellent education i cant envisage what else the board have accomplished. Celtic PR is abysmal, always was always will be (the fourth state will see to that) - but our gifted business brains do nothing but add fuel to the fire. I personally booed BQ for the absolute disdain he treats me with, his supposed play on words on player investment, his ascertions that the last share issue would be spent on new players, the season book renewal letters justifying the increases to "maintain the squad" need i go on, and for the board apologists who think its blasphemy to criticise in the only forum available to them then you need reminding we live in a democracy. DD may have made some salient points, but what exactly is his investment in CEltic £2m, now we know he has lots of cash and the reason for this is that he knows how to make money but some things continue to plague me, scenario one - he aims to make money from Celtic sometime in the future (sorry he already has with the preference share dividend - remember those that the CEltic TRust wanted reinvested in the club but was refused for some reason) or alternatively he is so astute at making money why hasnt he made some for celtic? Answers on the back of a stamp. Maybe its not his remit to make money for Celtic, so what exactly does he contribute. Yes there is little foundation in personal abuse as the board hire and fire, with some regularity, Chief Executives to carry out the day to day running of the club, do you think one day they will get it right and appoint someone that will generate greater funds? If i have missed the point and someone can enlighten me as to all the fabulous ideas (yes those that dont involve fleecing the support) then please let me know and i will desist from chastising the board for lack of ambition, forethought (Larrson leaving for example), lack of money making ideas (oh sorry Celtic for the premiership - great idea) and lack of rapport with the support - now you may be able to disprove some of those minor accusations but establishing a rapport with the Board is something that you will struggle to convince.
Navarro
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We are virtually unanimous in agreeing with DD's sentiments, except Anon.5.13, who seems to be caught in some bygone age. I first stood on the "slopes" of the jungle in 1951 and whatever the outstanding memories of that sacred enclosure are,"slopes"would almost contravene the Trade Description Act.
However, the point has been made about the timing of his remarks, but, as a previous poster asked, when is the right time? On the run in, or the start of the new season?
Where I would criticise, is on the thrust of his attack. Instead of openly attacking the mindless anti-Celtic, Celtic supporters who allow themselves to be manipulated by the Traynors of this world, he should have highlighted the campaign that is waged incessantly on us in an effort to destroy Celtic. All he had to do was refer back to the Fergus- Saddam front page and continue through to Thugs and Thieves. He should have declared open war on the tabloids,as, rest assured, the tackety boots will be on tomorrow.
In over 50 years following Celtic, I have never known the Press to be so virulent towards us and the only reason I can come up with for that, is, unlike before, when it was "just" bigotry and hatred of what we stood for, it is now about the survival of the Establishment club, as witnessed by DM calling his pet poodles to heel to protect the "Rangers family." At least six of Scotland's finest sports journos were in attendance at that lunch and in their arrogance, reported the outcome to their followers.
To think that we still have fans stupid enough to buy their rags and,worse,buy into their propaganda, beggars belief.
I only hope that new director, Brian Wilson will bring some of his journalistic and political nous into the PR department. But remember, DD was 100% correct in content.
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well i must agree with dd on the matter of the booing just seems to be the same ones all the time ie neil lennon in the semi final yep semi final of the uefa cup misplace pass what does he get booing what is that all about i cant remember when everyone was behind the team we dont seem to be the 12 man anymore.we all should be there to see the huddle all the hairs on the back of your neck should be standing when we do the walk on be honest when was the last time you felt that and be honest.how many times did you hear mon say after the game we felt the fans get nervous or tension that should not happen at parkhead ok we have nothing to rave about on the park apart from cb we are just a normal team now but we starting to act like normal fans and thats one thing we not we are known the world over so if you are a REAL fan thats get those hairs of the back of the neck standing up and back wee gs to the hills after all rome wasnt built in a day hail hail folks and god bless the celtic
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Anon 7.59, i assume you're anon 5.13 as well.
i've done my 'share' and will continue to do so, but that's besides the point.
From you're last comment i take it that while you're keen for DD and others to re-invest you won't be.
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I despair-as previous posts have said DD's timing could have been a lot better-Comments like this will be lapped up by the press.Brian Quinn does the same-why do they have to make insensitive comments.I totally agree with the booing aspect but I object to his inferring that we season book holders havent had to dig deep.as a family we have 2 season books-we(or should I say I) buy all the new strips as soon as they come out for the four of us plus a lot of other tops,accessories etc.We also travel from Aberdeen so when you add it all up I bet a hell of a lot more of my income goes to supporting Celtic as a percentage than DD's or BQ's.Its not a competition DD but I bet I will still be going to Celtic park long after you and your buddies are gone
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bryce curdy
I can't comment on your guess at the journalist who most offended MON, albeit I'm sure he would be associated with the red tops. I hope I don't sound like a smart ass but I stopped buying the well known rags more than 20 years ago and gave up on Clyde around the same time.
I agree with your view on Messrs Quinn, Lawyell and Desmond and to a certain extent on Fergus, although the latter really was our saviour and laid the groundwork for all that followed to the present day. Even Fergus, as financially astute as he was, could not have anticipated the profit he made on his exit.
There is a lot said about our board's communiction with the fans and there's no doubt that they could do better, however, we are a PLC and that can often present serious barriers to a Board that would ordinarily prefer most of its pronouncements to be positive (a la Murray); the stock exchange imposes strict conditions on what directors can say in public and as a consequence those clubs which are PLC'c tend to be viewed as conservative, prudent,etc. Look at Man U ...there were not a of " promises" or business plans coming from their board when they were under attack from Glazer.
Have enjoyed your posts; keep them coming.
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Magister Paul67,
The strident cries of disparagement and repugnant vilifications that were directed and Mr. Quinn and by association, Mr. Desmond,were indeed an embarrassment and an affront to the decent Celtic supporters.
Be that as it may, it was the Archetypal Ravings, that are always displayed by the Soupçon of Riffraff,who are ALWAYS diffused in small pockets, throughout the population of every crowd.
The sentiments proposed by the aforesaid element are always emphatically in error.
Unfortunately,like a malignant cancer, these erroneous beliefs, can and do on many occasions, infect other milquetoast members of the crowd.
This is by no means a new phenomenon.
It has been noted over and over again, by the cognoscenti over the past two thousand years.
The most mystifying component of this phenomena is that the opinion manifested by the hoi poloi is always at odds with the truth.
Recall if you may, the Cries of "Give us Barabbas!", which were heard at that Tragic Trial.
Also, the present cries of "Michael is Innocent!"
Yes, my friends, the human animal is indeed much misunderstood with a complexity of seemingly irrational behavior, from time to time.
Doctora Detroit.
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anon 8.21
I have worked out that I have spent in excess of £2700 this past season on 2 adult & 1 concession season books,CL tickets and huns Sc 3rd round,programmes,windfall draw,food & drink, Celtic Replay, celtic Pools,4 Tops and xmas pressies @ the superstore.
You may not be too far out with your comments on what the board do for extra income.
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Who in the press was MON talking about?
Well,...
MON has a complete disliking for Bill Leckie (one of the most complained against journalists in the written media) and Bill Leckie is definitely not a fan of MON. It goes back to when there was the Bhoys Against Bigotry conference and MoN was asked what could he do about it. He stuttered and stammered, admittedly, but afterwards Leckie stopped short of calling him a bigot and a coward. It was outrageous.
Just this week Leckie was having more pot shots at MoN saying that he didnt have the courage to say what he thought of particular journos "sniding behind their backs".
In his column in the Sun, Leckie has a go and makes fun of Priests, the Pope, Neil Lennon and Martin. Derive from that what you will.
I said he was one of the most complained about journos in the written media. The most notable episode was when he received numerous complaints following an article he wrote on MON where he launched a blatant personal attack.
I've checked www.thankyoumartin.co.uk and Bill Leckie hasn't left a goodwill message...
TinneyBhoy
ps: sorry for bleating on about this, I just don't like Leckie and his anti-Celtic agenda and have no doubt this is who MON is referring to.
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For Bryce Curdy and all who asked. The full story can be found on CelticFC.net
…Yet, predictably, not every aspect of life at Celtic will be mourned and, though bitterness features infrequently in O’Neill’s reminiscences of his time in Glasgow, it’s evident that his maltreatment at the hands of the press, and certain individuals in particular, still rankles.
In a parting shot, the former Celtic boss said: “What won’t I miss? I suppose the main thing would be the personal attacks that have been levelled at me by some journalists in this country.
“You almost become used to cracked Celtic crests and crisis headlines popping up on the back of their newspapers – even after a defeat in pre-season friendly – and I’m afraid that Gordon will probably have to contend with that sooner rather than later.
“But, at times, it was pretty depressing to come into work and find that some people who don’t know anything about me – or football, judging but some of the nonsense they spout – had written a piece slaughtering me because it was seen as the thing to do.
“I’m big enough to take criticism but, looking back, I do think the more personal stuff – of which there was a fair amount – was pretty poor.
"It was also galling to have aspersions cast over my dignity by the journalists in question, and one in particular who might do well to reflect on his own past before pointing the finger at those of us with considerably less to be ashamed of."
It’s apparent from reading this that the trashy tabloid headlines do get through to the team and management. That’s why it’s even more important that we (the Celtic community) don’t give them fuel to stoke their fires. They just circle like vultures waiting on the smallest of scraps to use against us. And what does DD do? He gives them a full meal- great. PR Celtic!!!
BTW - I’d still love to know who the journalist is – anyone?
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cheers....get the drift Anon 9:10
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Superficially the possibilities voced over the past few days seem rich in potential. But I am worried simply because of the observation that 'history repeats itself first as tragedy and then as farce!'
To the world of the high stakes gambler, the bawling traders and sharp-suited finance backers and those with an entrepreneurs gambling spirit, who see little beauty in the world unless it involves balance sheets, debit and credit accounts, and profits and losses, the potential fruition of the myriad of potential investment vehicles, marketing opportunities, media coups, share-price booms, tax breaks and revenue returns driven by Mammon’s boiler room must seem like the chance of another drink to an expectant alcoholic.
Let’s be totally honest here. The club, the tradition, the history, or even the throat sticking concept of ‘brand’ matters nothing to these creatures of the preferential share issue, dividend, and option trading unless it comes with a price and a margin attached.
They are interested in one thing and that is money, because that money gives them standing and power, and while that may be engine of a capitalist society of which we are all willingly or otherwise an integral part, it can never be a solid foundation for the aesthetic and non-material impulses which give life and sustenance to the concept of a locally based, nationally organised, universally recognised team based sport such as Association Football.
And it can definitely never be the motivation or beating heart of Celtic FC.
Hell-mend them! This club is not their plaything, this club is not a tax avoidance scheme or souped-up ‘cash converter’ which will fund another suit, another holiday, another Ferrari, or another school term of over-priced fees to the already financially bloated on the back of a deception which will lead to the corrupt mutation of the life-sustaining plasma of dedicated supporters’ emotional investment and dreams, into a sad utilitarian and soulless financial derivative.
I say these things, not because I don’t want investment!
I crave investment more than the smoker in denial craves the longed-for contented drag of a B&H.
But like that Smoker-in-denial, (2 years, 8 months and 27days since my last one), the stimulus I crave must not be one that lies about its apparent rejuvenating effect and contented afterglow; it must not be one that on that first rush of pleasure pushes me in a headlong rush to the nearest tobacconists and the probable loss of my independence and relative health to an ever increasing need for more and more.
My fear is that the possible outcome that Paul has suggested, unless harnessed by a vision agreed by all parties of where we want to get to and what we want to be, holds dangers that may undermine everything that we hold as important.
If I truly believed that the potential map for the Johnny-come-lately football oligarchs could be walked with no taint or compromise to the history or future of the ideals at the centre of Celtic FC, then I would happily let them wend their weary way through the back-room deals and funny hand-shakes with only a passing thought for their limited grasp on what really makes our club what it truly is.
But, at least for the moment this happy outcome is simply not the case, because there is no single agreed outcome which will satisfy the financial and emotional needs of everyone involved.
We seem to be imagining a future which fits each of our own desires by working back from an end point and adjusting the motives of the financial gurus to manufacture a path which will lead us to that objective.
But even that objective needs to be viewed with a supersized barrowload of suspicion.
Potentially Celtic (and for want of a better word – Rangers) will be beamed to a new world of top class clubs, paying top-class money, to top-class players, while providing the top-class football that we would currently give my missus’s eye teeth for.
Hold yer horses there! Do we really believe that once this never-never land is achieved and all our clubs are up to the eyes in deb, that these financial sugar-daddies are going to sit back the and say?
‘well that’s us happy, cause we’ve made the fan’s happy and we’ve got a nice little cartel going here – no need for any more change’.
I apologise to those of a sensitive nature but ‘Utter Bollocks!’
Not least of all relegation is always a nasty monster lurking just beyond the horizon! And as we know from what has happened south of the river Tweed, the pressures and stresses and strains have led to a complete change in the culture of football and the consequences of having a bad season.
Even without this, what we are talking about is swimming with eternally underfed sharks.
When are they wealthy enough, when are they satisfied, when are they powerful enough?
They are driven by a motivation that few can comprehend!
They constantly need more and more and that can only happen through destroying the status quo and destroying stability. Whether that is by changing rules, changing names, or changing locations, it will happen.
We are sitting here around our this cyber table, debating so eloquently the rationale, the causes, the drivers, and the results of what may or may not be happening but we have not attempted to determine what ‘end’ is that we so desperately crave.
And this end must not only the best one for Celtic but also the best one for football, for uniquely in the business world, our football teams are not and can never be individual autonomous businesses competing with each other for financial dominance.
We need each other to survive, we need the Albion Rovers, the Hartlepools, The Wrexhams. We used to need the Accrington Stanley’s, the Third Lanarks, The Bradford Park Avenues, but we allowed the game to change and we set in motion a bandwagon when we allowed football to lose site of its essential mantra so eloquently espoused by Martin O’Neil.
‘This game is about those who play, and those who pay!’
I don’t know what the answer is to all our ambitions and hopes, but what I do know is that being driven down one path on the pack of the blinkered motivations of one small but financially powerful group is a recipe for schism and split and ultimate decay of the foundations upon which we all exist through our team.
We will only progress and thrive in a way that meets the needs of everyone by making sure that each of our objectives are compatible and the route-map that is planned is acceptable to all.
‘….those who play, and those who pay’
We’ll always have football because we’ll always have those who play.
We’ll only have professional football if we have ‘those who pay’
That’s us by the way!
And if you don’t think there is anything we can do about where this game goes I suggest you think on this.
Without football Sky Television, for all Murdoch’s money and ostensible power, would have died. We let that monster loose and untamed it has spawned so many ill-begotten offspring.
Less than twenty years on the rate of change has been so great fuelled by the blood-money from competing television organisations and soaked up by ever more power hungry clubs to pay ever more money crazed players that the game, the clubs, the players and in some cases the fans are unrecognisable.
If unthinkingly we simply acquiesce and allow another mammon driven coup, then in another twenty years I hate to think what we will be in for.
We are more powerful as fans than you could imagine.
As a first step, tomorrow I am going to join the Celtic Trust
I leave us all with this simple caution.
Be wary about what we wish for, it may be granted!
I am now going to lie down for a week!
Bon Voyage
Estadio
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GalaBhoy. I am sure that your big spend has been appreciated and put to good use by the club. And indeed it is they who got most of your hard earned, so it was at least in a good cause.
In total, my little jaunt with the missus to Seville cost in excess of £2,000. But NONE of that went to Celtic.
£450 went on flights. About £250 went to a hotel in Malaga for a week's accommodation. £120 odd went to Avis Car Hire. And £1,200 went to some scouser for the two match tickets (coz Liverpool didn't get there!).
I know. I shouldn't have paid so much for them to someone who was basically ripping off Celtic fans. But it was a once in a lifetime opportunity for me, so I passed it off as my annual holiday for the year. And for 2004 aswell!
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I've done you all a favour and deleted my earlier post with the huge URL that has apparently thrown the page width into disarray for many users. So hopefully things should be back to normal now.
For the record, here is the post again with the "Tiny URL" instead!
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Don't read a lot into short term share price movements. Many small investors lost thousands of pounds jumping onto the "tech boom" bandwaggon after the horse had bolted, and succeeded only in catching the downturn, nay implosion, of the sector on the stock market.
A good deal of the short term price fluctuation in stocks is down to rumour & sentiment, and the "lemming effect". You have to look at the longer term picture to get real trends, although by jumping in and out at the right moments in the short term you can make a few bob. However, if your investment is an emotional one, you should always look to the longer term.
Furthermore, don't think that by buying Celtic shares on the open market you are actually putting any money into the club. You are not. The only beneficiaries of your purchase will be those who sold the shares, and those who claimed commission for processing the transaction. If you want to put money into the club by buying shares then you would need to invest in an issue of new shares.
Looking at the longer term performance of Celtic shares you will see that these have in fact FALLEN in value since the beginning of 1996, whilst Manchester United shares have RISEN SIX FOLD over the same period!
From early 1996 to the end of 1997 Celtic shares did themselves increase around six fold, but this was a short term boom, after which they halved in value over the next four years up to the end of 2001. They fell by a further 80% over MON's first three seasons, in spite of the treble and the run to Seville! But they now stand back around the levels of 10 years ago, and at about 1/7th of their 10 year peak.
I would therefore advise anyone thinking about buying Celtic shares to do their own research and take expert advice BEFORE doing so. And remember, two key points: (1) This money will not be going into the club, and (2) the value of your investment may fall as well as increase. I would recommend the use of, and strict adherence to a "stop loss".
Last 10 years share price performance (compared with ManU):
http://tinyurl.com/7az4h
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Read DD's comments.He's 100% correct.The timing is irrelevant.
I feel really strongly about this but I'll say no more about it or my post will be longer than Estadio's!!!
BankieBhoy
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Rob71
That I was also please to see DD cares enough to be hurt tells its own story.
Welcome Pebbledash. Sing it from the hills.
Navvaro
For someone who disagrees with me on the Celtic board I find myself strangely sympathetic to you views. I disagree with your views on DD and BQ, but lets not split hairs.
Attracting new commercial income to the club is the principal role of the executive members of the board.
Celtic Quick News readers know the point of selling stadium naming rights, but the club seem not to. The previous Chief Exec’s have failed to impress in this crucial area. Peter Lawwell delivered with the Nike deal and will be judged on his performance here.
This board have had a couple of false start Chief Exec’s, I am hopeful for this one.
Stepjam, thanks.
I agree, there is not much more money can be squeezed out of the man on the ‘slopes’ of Celtic Park.
Ghirl
I agree, if it was not for Fergus Celtic would have been looking down the barrel of Hibs.
Jack73
Fair point on the timing. What DD needs to do now is engage in the argument, take the battle on and win it. The vacuum his absence has left was filled with lies and misinformation.
Win the war, don’t just blame your enemies.
Anon 8.25, keep telling it.
Doctora Detriot
Laughed out loud. “Michael is innocent”, and you better believe they will find him so.
“Give us Barabbas”, if I’ve read that once on a football web site…..
I do enjoy Celtic Quick News.
Estadio
Almost hidden in your beautiful words is a warning on clear danger which I wholly agree with. DD will one day move on and then we will be prey to those who seek a different future for Celtic.
I am working on a strategy for this. Stay tuned.
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I think Pebbledash has the essence of the point about the Board here. Would we rather have a Board made up of astute businessmen like DD and BQ (former deputy Chairman of the Bank of England?) than a man who would take our club and make an integral part of a financial pact with other subsidiaries of the same organisation. The interdependencies and essential cross company agreements tend to resemble pyramid selling.
Running a PLC carries a great deal of fiscal responsibility that does not need to be publicly exposed in a private company. Was it not taking Celtic back from the brink and making it public that saved us?
Mrs Highland Tim’s (nee Miss Leeds Lass) family are still in shock at the Leeds United experience. From an independent perspective my brother-in-law has been following CQN and is now green with envy at the level of debate and insight into our potential future. (pun def. intended!)
What would we rather have? The ability to influence our Board in a mature and considered manner or the obsequious toadying and forelock tugging that goes on for the norm at the dark side? Booing should be reserved for the playground where, I believe, it still has a place.
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Cabbage 1.09. agree in principal.Marty 2.15.How else can the rank and file voice an opinion? The season books are paid up front and this last month we were exalted to get them paid asap by P67.Most CQN readers are NOT kidded by our media so to bring up the old chesnut is less relevant to us.
Qmark 3.40. interesting. Who controls the real power from the the last share issue and are Eddie Jordan et alia aware of us other than an investment? Liam H. way over the top imo. Skelly2.4.15. Why did Fergus not leave any money in the club? He was not a philanthopist but a hard headed busnessman,he never intended to leave anything. He quite rightly took the risk then took the money. Training ground anyone??MDBHOY 5.46. "THE VERY SOUL OF THIS GREAT CLUB IS AT THREAT FROM YOU" Please. The enduring appeal of this site is obvious, many views one CELTIC. DD at our next AGM why not stay a while, maybe have a chat to some of us fellow shareholders? You would be afforded all due respect? Of that i am sure.
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Sorry,this is off topic.Come to think of it,can't remember what the original topic was!
While on the e-tims site,I noticed the "Freddy Adu" rumour.I don't believe this is true but would there not be a benefit in having a high profile American player or contracted Nike player to help us crack the American market?
BankieBhoy
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Not really in line with latest thread but in an earlier post, I've been scrolling back to locate it but no luck, there was a request for an inquest into what had happened on the last day of the season. I would only offer these impressions based on the old maxim - know thy enemy.
Jimmy mcGrory scored 50 goals in a season but that is not the record in scotland. Motherwell´s William McFadyen bagged 52 goals in one season, the year Motherwell won the league in 1932.
In 1937 Celtic suffered their worst ever defeat by another scottish club, 8-0, against you guessed it Motherwell.
If all that seems a long time ago, remember which team halted celtic's world record? run of 25 wins on the trot, all 75 points?? Motherwell, at celtic park.
And their manager was Terry Butcher!!!
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Paul
Thanks for your comments; I hope I'm not coming across as an apologist for the Board...far from it, but I believe in giving credit where it's due;
In previous threads you have acknowledged that the Board could not have provided any more finance to our managers( most recently MON ) without endangering the stability of the club. I wholly agreed with your assertions that we could not continue to spend more than we earned ( although the hands on the spend throttle were different from those on the earned lever ).
What I find repugnant is that certain members of the Board were vilified very publicly by an element of our support despite their obvious commitment to the club and more importantly the management and players. These mindless actions spawned the rhetoric we experienced today from DD.
I can't agree with what I believe to be your implied suggestion that DD engage in a public debate with fans on business plans, long term vision,etc. The AGM is the time and place for this sort of stuff and thereafter let the management team get on with the job . That's what DD and the Board have tended to do.
If the manager starts dropping unsubtle hints in the press that he needs more money to achieve success then the Board quite rightly should deal with that privately and not get involved in washing dirty linen in public.
I repeat: our Board is highly professional and well up to the task of meeting our demands as fans as well as the requirement to satisfy the resposibilities of a PLC. We need to look elsewhere for explanations as to why we have not achieved success on the field of play on various occasions over the past few years.
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Somethings been gnawing at me all day. I'm just in from an evening out with my lovely wife and spent the last 20 mins reading through the latest chat.
For me, two comments stand out: MDBhoy said "DD is spot on with his assessment, ALBEIT THE TIMING COULD HAVE BEEN BETTER". TinneyBhoy said (in reference to DD), "I DON'T SEE WHY HE HAD TO BE SO PUBLIC IN HIS CONDEMNATION".
For the record, I entirely agree with the tone and sentiment of Mr Desmond's statement. Indeed, without the likes of DD I'd dread to think where the club would be. Perhaps those who are so vehemently against him would like to enlighten me?
The tone and sentiment of Mr Desmond's comments are not what's gnawing at me, however. As pointed out by MDBhoy and TinneyBhoy, it is the timing and public nature of them.
Mr Desmond is, without doubt, a very astute and shrewd individual/businessman. He knows the score and knows full well how his comments will be portrayed in the media.
If I was looking to raise £23.5m, as has been rumoured today in Celtic cyberspace, why would I come out with comments that could cast doubt on my commitment to the club and potentially alienate me from the support, the very people who will likely buy the shares??
I have no doubt Mr Desmand knows what he's doing. I just have trouble working it out. Paul, Fargo et al, enquiring minds want to know.
GM
p.s. Celtic shares today closed up another 1.5p at 60p. So while our frinds in the media may wheel out the cracked crests, the market chose to ignore this very public statement. Follow the money!!
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Jack
I suspect that the board will be in agreement with you that the AGM is the time and place to communicate the roadmap. Let me tell you a story, though.
Armed with publicly available information that I reproduced on an Internet site I have created a place where many thousands of Celtic fans visit each day. They come here for this information because financial statements and the AGM are not effective communication tools.
The board need to square this circle; if the story is so good why is everyone not thanking them for doing a great job? I know the story is good, but the vacuum of EFFECTIVE communication leaves a space for lies, misunderstanding and confusion.
Leadership Jack, that is what is needed. Not the kind we get from Mr Bombastic (© CQN) across the city, just simple Churchillian leadership.
If DD rose to the challenge I bet Celtic fans would swarm to the call.
“We will fight them on the beaches. We will fight them in the fields and in the towns. We will never surrender.”
Rintimtim, I don’t need to know any of that.
Very best regards to nee Miss Leeds Lass’ brother. Nota bene, when the afore mentioned super-league comes in to play, more than just Celtic and Rangers are wanted :-)
You do the math, as they say in our North American market.
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Tonybhoy's disappointment in Dermot Desmonds statement
Point 1 - The fans are the most important thing about Celtic Football Club
Point 2 - Just in case you don't get the importance I will repeat. The fans are the most important thing about Celtic Football Club.
I am very disappointed in Dermot Desmonds statement today and I am also very disappointed in the response on this board by many who seem to say that they back it 100%.
I could understand some saying the back the majority of it but for many (and there are a good few) to say that they back it 100% then it means the back it line by line, including ones I am going to point out.
I will start by saying that most (but not all) of his comments are factual correct but in my opinion he shouldn't have said them. Along the lines of I think some fans had the right to boo Lennon for his back pass against Boavista because they pay their money and they thought they were going to miss their chance of getting to a European final. However I was extremely disappointed they did boo as booing a Celtic player for keeping possesion during a UEFA Cup semi final is not the appropriate thing to do whether correct or not. In my opinion technically Lennon was wrong for the back pass as he had more time to look up so it was wrong and not ignorance of the fans who don't realise we should keep possesion. But as I said the correct behaviour was to think that it was wrong but not boo. (However those who booed did so and are entitled to but in my opinion wrong)
Back to Desmond and what I am trying to say is that he is very wrong with the statement as a whole and very wrong in saying many things in it even if they are factual correct.
And it disappoints me that many intelligent people on here agree with it without thinking. Sometimes the intelligent person doesn't think logically and seems to be brainwashed into thinking beyond the norm when the norm may well be the correct road.
I am talking about the "intelligent people back the board" and "stupid people boo the board" mentality that splits the fans up where in fact every item should be looked at specifically on its merits.
Back to Desmond statement then.
“With Martin, as I’ve said many times before, I recruited a manager and ended up with a friend, as did my family. “That relationship will not just terminate because he’s left the football club, although obviously I feel terribly sorry about the circumstances that are preventing him from continuing as Celtic manager. “I can only stress how grateful I am to him for all that he’s given to the club and the fans over the past five years, and for the part he’s played in passing on the baton to Gordon Strachan."
All very nice and nothing controversial there.
“The spirit and co-operation between Martin and Gordon has been fantastic, and it really should be the norm for everything regarding this football club."
Excellent point and should not be hidden amongst the minor points of his statement. The dignity and professionalism during the end of MON's era and the start of Strachan's was something we should strive for and not let be the exception.
“Sadly, we on the board have never been given the slightest recognition for getting Martin and helping him build the team that has been so successful over the past years. Instead, we’ve had to put up with constant speculation about him going when, as he said last week, he’s never wanted to leave and still doesn’t."
Good factual point that the board have never been given true recoginition but it should not be part of a negative statement as it looks like egotiscal thoughts from our board. It should have been done during a praising positive statement to the fans as a bit of self praise rather than the way it has been. Or even if he just directed that to the media, i.e. saying directly that the media have never given them credit for appointing MON, then it would get the point across, some fans would say yeah their right and no fans feel accused.
“But the fans should not believe that there is a division between Martin and the board when no division ever existed."
Sorry but not trying to have a go at MON here but it was him who gave out this impression during his media briefings.
"Perhaps, rather than criticising a board who work tirelessly on behalf of this club, the fans should take their ire out on the those who make these false and outlandish statements without any comeback whatsoever.
The fans do. What about the bhoycott of the record for example. Is he saying the board should not be criticised. "The board work tirelessly." I should flippin hope so. (Nearly swore there).
“I think there is an attempt to divide the Celtic family in some sections of the media and, unfortunately, a significant portion of the fans are allowing this to happen. I think that’s a great pity because I had always felt and hoped that we had a tradition of unity greater than that.”
No need to say this at all even though it is partially true but this seems to generalise and actually accuses fans of being stupid.
“At this club, it seems the more money you invest, the more abuse you receive.”
Disgraceful comment. Generalising all fans. Factually incorrect and very self pitying.
“For me, the biggest disappointment of this season besides Martin’s departure was the reception that Brian was given by the fans that day. I’ll be honest – it changed my attitude towards the club.
Yes I was disappointed that day but to say it was a bigger disappointment than losing at Motherwell or losing to Rangers is a disgrace. It is a disgrace to the thousands who cried after the Motherwell game as the emotion they felt was unbearable. And still is. It was a disgrace to those who had to face ridicule at work the following day knowing they could not afford the day off work never mind the sanctuary of a golf course or luxury hotel to wash away the blues.
He says. "It changed my attitude towards the club". Now you along with me have had many ups and downs as supporters and many things have been done by fans/players/board members that upset us but never once have I came close to saying that "It changed my attitude towards the club"
“For the first time, I questioned whether I wanted to be associated with the kind of fans, albeit a minority, who would abuse and taunt a man who has put so much of his time and energy into developing their club. I was embarrassed and disgusted by the whole episode."
Whether I wanted to be associated. Now hold me up. We never voted you chairman. We never begged you for your company. It was you that decided to come along.
“I’m used to the fact that the bulk of the board’s work goes unrecognised, but at times like those I feel that I’d prefer just to be a fan - but a real fan, not one so fickle and quick to criticism that he boos someone without any justification whatsoever. I don’t want to be subject to that kind of betrayal."
Who says they have no justification whatsoever. Maybe they were wrong but no justification whatsoever.
“As far as I’m concerned, what those fans did to Brian Quinn undermined the whole tradition of this club and also made it extremely unattractive for anyone considering putting money in, including myself."
Fair point and maybe it would make it unattractive for anyone wanting to put money in but was there a need to say it and again he is questioning his own involvement. And as any club never mind a proud club like ours has proud fans the no-one wants someone to be hear if they don't want. We are not and will never be beggers.
“But what I’ve always said is that, while I believe we are running this club well and responsibly, if the fans or any individual believes they can do a better job and wants to invest in the club, I would never refuse their funds."
Thats like saying I'm rich and your not and until you get rich shut up.
"I’ve never heard the fans say: ‘Let’s double the price of season tickets so we can use the funds to buy players.’”
One of the most disgraceful points of his overall statement. 1) The fans actually do say it. The asked for the non payment of dividends to which you disagreed. 2) The fans have been told that increased season ticket money and share issue money would buy players and it never happened. Although through increased wage bills and legitimate reasons this could not be the case it is still wrong to say what he said.
3) Season tickets have more than doubled for some who had them years ago. And they still come back.
4) Again coming from a) a rich man and b) a director of the board then this is a disgraceful comment.
“Every time I have the misfortune to see a Scottish newspaper, there always seems to be the same rubbish written about ‘splashing the cash,’ ‘speculating to accumulate’ and ‘opening the purse-strings.’ Let me tell you, these are passwords to bankruptcy."
100% true.
“The Celtic board is too intelligent and has too much respect for the tradition of the club to jeopardise its existence by giving in to such nonsense, and it surprises me fans have such short-term memories in this respect. It seems that they don’t remember how close the club came to going out of business 12 years ago."
Generalising again there and he doesn't mention anything about a minority of fans here. So he is saying we have short term memories and we can't remember nearly going out of business. Factually incorrect as the majority of us do remember and do not have short term memories and it is also a very cheeky and insulting remark to make of the fans.
“At the same time, people should also remember that we have actually made substantial investment in the playing squad, despite headlines to the contrary.”
True. But not all of us dispute that.
“Gordon will make his own mark on Celtic Football Club and he’ll do it his way,” Desmond enthused. “He certainly isn’t the kind of man to listen or be dictated to by anyone.
“Martin knew, as we did, that substantial changes needed to be made this summer and we had discussed with him a major overhaul of the playing squad. Now that task has passed to Gordon and he doesn’t need to be told by anyone about what’s needed.
“He has his own ideas and everyone at the club, in particular the Celtic board, is completely committed to supporting those and giving Gordon all the backing we can.”
Great. Good to hear.
No I can understand why some on this board find most of it factually correct but is there are need to say what he has and also how can some on here defend it 100%.
Please answer as I would like to hear comments on all specific parts of it as I think some of the points raised are disgraceful.
I will finish with a point I said at the start.
Last point - The fans are the most important thing about Celtic Football Club.
Tonybhoy
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To all those posters bending over backwards to hail the board etc.
Think on do you really believe the fan on the street the punter really really cares about the share situ?.
Do you think we would even be having these discussions or indeed the booing of the chairman would have happened , if the proper steps had been taken.
We lose lubo - not replaced.
We lose the king not replaced.
We again revert back to going out of europe before christmas.
We lose the title in the fashion we did.
Why - lack of re investment.
The agm is staged managed the boss does not even bother to show up and when he does leaves early. Respect goes both ways.
So the fans many who are shareholders also have one way to show their displeasure, which they did.
Dermotts words though viewed unwise by many were well thought out in advance. The fans have been chastised, slapped on the wrist, what ever way you want to put it.
However im not to sure Desmond and co realise this is not peoples hobby or pastime they are dealing with, its a way of life for many. TB stated the players are playing for a people a culture, so to the board service a people a culture and they should therefore act accordingly.
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Guys,I've just had a great idea:-
Let's double the price of season tickets so we can use the funds to buy players.
Plagiarism,but,good point well made DD. He can do what he likes with his money. He could pump it it into Old Aberdonians-new set of strips, training tops,bags, coach to away games-thanks DD!!
But why should he?Because his money-at least as much as he wants to donate-is at Celtic.And at the moment it is a donation-or speculation at best.
It is a joke of gigantic proportions to come on to this site and opine about how you almost bankrupt yourself following Celtic and buying the merchandise for you and your kids.
You are a bigger fan than DD? Tell you what-buy your kids some decent food for a while and cut out the new strip. They can live without it for a while.
Nobody is ever going to force you to buy Celtic merchandise-and nobody is ever going to force DD to put more money into the club than it 'deserves'(in his view-whether emotional or business)
The 'best fan' of recent times is clearly mein host-how much is P67's time worth? Lets say his professional rate is £100 an hour.(conservative?). 10 hours a week (conservative?). P67 gives £52k p.a. to Celtic.
Who gives more than that?
Paul-see you and Bob at EDB shortly. We can have a good go at him for his failure to tackle poverty in Africa properly.
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The "Barrabas" quote earlier on was classic. As Pontius Pilate discovered (allegedly), it is hard to reason with a mob. My only problem with the DD quotes and the earlier wailing and gnashing of teeth about Henke's reception at the Barca match is that it ignores the fact that only a very small minority of fans were involved on both occasions. The vast majority sat in silence. As with those "silences" for the dearly departed, they only create a blank canvas for the moronic to have their belches heard all the louder.
In future, any such outburst of boos should be greeted by prolonged cheering and applause.
As for why DD's comments featured on TV and radio tonight and will attract banner headlines in every paper tomorrow, best ask Stephen Sullivan and our PR geniuses at Celtic Park why they put it out on our official website.
As own goals go, it's up there with Ben Casey's at a League Cup Final more than 20 years ago.
Our Board are all successful businessmen - they should know better than to react to such ill-informed brouhaha (great word, eh?).
Our directors should be much more hands-on with the fans at all levels so that misunderstandings are much less likely to occur. If everything was explained and discussed in the manner in which it usually is on this site, there would be a greater degree of unanimity within our fractious, and occasionally fractured, followers.
Can you believe that the club pays hundreds of thousands of pounds a year to produce such communications calamities?
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What is it with us as a support???
Mr Desmond shares a few home truths with the club's official mouthpiece and World War 3 breaks out in the Celtic cyber world.
Result? An own goal, which the tabloids will relish.
DD must take the lion's share of the blame on this latest one, for instigating such disharmony.
I'm sure he meant well and I agreed with most of what he said, but there is a time and a place!
Something needs to be done with our PR, and fast.
dialupcelt.
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Wee Jinky,I seem to be getting confused on what you are saying,I would have said we should agree to disagree but the fact is you are making the very point that I'm trying to make yet we are crossing paths on this?
Maybe my choice of words again confusing the matter.
But glad you have given your opinion about it.
After reading what Bigchipsuk had to say on the matter at 9.30pm maybe put it in a better light
I have to say I agree with your comments at 4.48pm completely.
Jeromek 5.06pm
Some fine words from yourself.
Navarro 8.21pm Have to say I agree with you also.
Estadio Very wise words
Tonybhoy 12.32
I can only thank you for breaking down what was said by DD & the Celtic PR(or lack of)I must say I was 99% behind what you had to say on every point.Too "Lazy" to do it myself.
Anon 12.33 you have some very interesting points also.
I haven't really added to this debate with my opinions as I think they have already been expressed by various posters throughout the course of the day.
My opinion has actually changed as the day went on about various issues brought up and opened my eyes to a few unthought of issues.
I knew from first reading it on CELTIC.NET Even the original headline of "Desmond blasts divisive forces" and then quickly changed to "Desmonds disappointment" that it was going to be a hot potato with many debates forth coming.
I must say though that DD & Co.,to some extent have created the very monster that they are trying to kill off with this article.
If you create the monster and then only feed it scraps of info from time to time,it will eventually bite the very hand that is feeding it.No good for either one.
We are being starved of info,the plate has to get bigger and we are not taking about a few Macca chesseburgers here,we need some decent steak for a change.
Doctora Detroit 8.49pm
Very strong words directed towards your fellow Celtic supporters,a little bit more respect would be nice.
"disparagement and repugnant"
"the Archetypal Ravings, that are always displayed by the Soupçon of RIFFRAFF,who are ALWAYS diffused in small pockets"...
so your fellow supporters who express an opinion,right or wrong are RIFFRAFF?
"like a malignant cancer, these erroneous beliefs"
I do believe this quote is a best unfitting to grace this or any other Celtic website towards fans especially under the very circumstances that MON said goodbye to us at Celtic.
"the opinion manifested by the hoi poloi is always at odds with the truth"
This is not just directed at you Doctora D.,just as it's not just directed at DD and his comments discussed on here.
It's very easy to look back to these type of events in hindsight and have an opinion about the booing of McCann AFTER the fact.
If my memory serves me correct,It was the majority of fans that had the opinion of McCann being the bad one for a long time,it wasn't until a few short years ago that everyone started to wake up to all the great things that he had in fact done for the Club.I,always being a lone voice talking the bunnet up to mates and fellow fans at the games and in the pub,got laughed at many a time,but it was nice that the general opinion changed over time.
It probably was a disgrace what happened to McCann getting booed but at the time it wasn't seen as that as everyone may remember but may deny,but can't.
If only CQN was around then as this problem with MCCann would have been cleared up a long time before hand.
We all learn from our mistakes and move on,but to bring up the mistakes of the past does no one any good,to bring them up on the official website is questionable!
Judging by what is being protrayed in the media,including CELTIC.NET at the moment,we are a club in disaray which is actually futher from the truth,we seem to be uniting and coming together with the odd disagreement along the way.
It's great to see so many different view points coming from fans on the internet, and finding common ground,maybe we are just not used to either,at least here unlike in personal company you can't be shouted down or laughed at before you make you point of view with everyone going a long with the mass opinion which isn't always the correct one.
It's time Celtic sorted out the PR as this has become the very core problem to many an issue and making things worse.
I think fans get frustrated also as we do believe that it doesn't take much to rectify this but we have had no voice.
There is no better man than Dermot Desmond for the job.
Yours in Celtic
Cabbage
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regarding Desmonds views:
Jeanette Findlay from the Celtic Supporters' Trust said:
"He's got a cheek to say that. The vast majority of Celtic's funds comes from the fans. That's where it comes from, not Mr Desmond. We already fund the club, we are already the biggest source of revenue and he has not lost any money so I'm not sure what's he's trying to say."
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For you Bhoys around the world,go to this page and click on the left hand side
Video clips 030605desmond
http://scotlandtoday.scottishtv.co.uk/content/default.asp?page=s1_1_1&newsid=7882
here you will find some video clips including the "interview with
Jeanette findlay from the Celtic Supporters Trust.
Cabbage
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Players such as Sutton, Lennon, Hartson, Petrov, Thommo that were all brought in around five years ago, have served us well, but the board, in order to prevent transfer cash in the last few seasons have been amortising their transfer value in the accounts.
Celtic, as a result, has lost maybe 3 - 4million each season for the past three to four years in transfer money. Instead of settling for ridiculous 1m loan deals for players like Camara, Celtic could have been adding consistently to the teams development.
Business always aims for consistent, year on year growth. A club like Celtic, that plays in a league without the luxury of fantastic TV deals, also needs to pursue a strategy of consistent and reliable growth.
I think that DD has realised this and hence is increasing his monetary value invested in the club through a Preference Share issue. It will provide 10m up front to refresh and revitalise and a further 13 - 15m over the next 5 years, possibly more depending on sales of players and performance in Europe.
On the issue of BQ being booed is not a real problem for me. Celtic's board need to be held to account over the lack o investment in the club over the last few years, in terms of player acquisition. I personally believe that DD and the board are doing a great job in keeping CFC afloat and out of a dangerous fiscal situation. The criticism of Fergus McCann, on the other hand, was disgraceful. That man saved Celtic and is as important a figure in the history of the club as any member of the 67 team, Jock Stein, Brother Walfrid, Jimmy McGrory, Larsson and DD all rolled into one. Without him CFC would no longer exist.
Shanghai Mike
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Had the misfortune of hearing real radio’s phone in last night (Alan Rough gutter journo at its worse, no research just sound bites and even they are terrible) and also this morning scanning cyberspace I can’t believe the reaction to truthful comments from DD.
It’s a case of the Celtic support taking the new oasis album title of “Don’t believe the truth” as gospel.
Right we as a SUPPORT (that’s right we are the same SUPPORT) are the clubs main source of revenue, correctamoondo, but over the last few years our money has not been enough to keep the club running.
We have had to rely on loans from DD and others to keep the club running.
That is the truth; it’s in the accounts, which are the only truthful thing that is published that should be believed. Not the press calls for “loosening the purse strings” or “big spend” as the accounts show every spare penny has been put into the playing squad new contracts expensive loan signings and the bhoy from brazil.
The truth- if we had overspent then we would be looking down the barrel of ranger like restrictions with the bank playing the fiddle or the flute.
Celtic’s PR remind of Oasis funnily enough, good product getting favourable press then someone from within with a big mouth goes and causes unneeded bad publicity.
We are a walking PR disaster a “standing on the shoulder of giants” instead of a “definitely maybe” (can anyone guess who im listening to, answers on a postcard).
This entire incident shows me is we are a big club but run like a small club.
Hopefully the new chairman is a leader a strong character and “not just the same as the old boss” and a man to take us forward.
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Tonybhoy
I'll respond on what are assumed to be the negative comments of DD's interview.
"Perhaps, rather than criticising a board who work tirelessly on behalf of this club, the fans should take their ire out on the those who make these false and outlandish statements without any comeback whatsoever."
Don't see anything wrong in that statement.Many of our fans believe what they see in the media.The boycott of the Record that you refer to by no means encompasses all Celtic fans.My question would be why do some fans believe what they read in the papers as opposed to what comes from the club,although I admit information is not always forthcoming.
"I think there is an attempt to divide the Celtic family in some sections of the media and, unfortunately, a significant portion of the fans are allowing this to happen. I think that’s a great pity because I had always felt and hoped that we had a tradition of unity greater than that."
This may imply that some Celtic fans are stupid but maybe some of them are.I saw a website the other day with supporters suggesting we sign Robbie Keane because he is Irish and supports Celtic while Bellamy isn't.I hope WGS is using more intelligent thought processes when building his squad this summer.
“At this club, it seems the more money you invest, the more abuse you receive.”
Can't see the generalisation of all fans that you see there.There is no inference that all fans are involved in this.Although this statement is factually incorrect there may be a perception from DD that this is indeed the case.
“For me, the biggest disappointment of this season besides Martin’s departure was the reception that Brian was given by the fans that day. I’ll be honest – it changed my attitude towards the club.
I'll admit,neither of the two things above rate as my biggest disappointment this season.But I'm not Dermot Desmond.
“For the first time, I questioned whether I wanted to be associated with the kind of fans, albeit a minority, who would abuse and taunt a man who has put so much of his time and energy into developing their club. I was embarrassed and disgusted by the whole episode."
I can understand why he would feel this way.I'm sure DD and BQ invest more time in Celtic than anyone would believe.How would anyone feel on a human level if you went to work every day but all you ever got was criticism?How long would you want to stick around?
“I’m used to the fact that the bulk of the board’s work goes unrecognised, but at times like those I feel that I’d prefer just to be a fan - but a real fan, not one so fickle and quick to criticism that he boos someone without any justification whatsoever. I don’t want to be subject to that kind of betrayal."
In my opinion there is no justification for the booing of Brian Quinn.A perceived lack of transfer cash should not be a reason to boo the chairman.Some of the people booing him for not spending would be the same people standing outside CP screaming "sack the board" if they took us to the brink of bankruptcy by doing what they were asked.
“But what I’ve always said is that, while I believe we are running this club well and responsibly, if the fans or any individual believes they can do a better job and wants to invest in the club, I would never refuse their funds."
I'm sorry,that is not like saying I'm rich and you are not.That is saying come up with a better way of running this club or bringing in more money and i'll listen.If anybody believes that statement lacks sincerity,the only way to challenge it is to put an idea together and test his resolve.
"I’ve never heard the fans say: ‘Let’s double the price of season tickets so we can use the funds to buy players.’”
On reflection,this remark is unfortunate.However,some of the biggest critics of this board demanding more money be spent do so without any great deal of thought as to where it will come from.A reality check here perhaps?
“The Celtic board is too intelligent and has too much respect for the tradition of the club to jeopardise its existence by giving in to such nonsense, and it surprises me fans have such short-term memories in this respect. It seems that they don’t remember how close the club came to going out of business 12 years ago."
You may say DD is generalising but I think it is inferred in the context of the whole piece that he is talking about a section of the support,not all of it.Some do have short memories though.
Some suppoters still criticise Fergus for walking away from Celtic with money.Why? Without Fergus where would Celtic be now? At the risk of generalising,I would say that it is many of these same supporters that now criticise this current board of directors.Why?
Is it just because of a lack of information coming from CP? I personally don't think so.There is an arrogance amongst some of our supporters that we got rid of the last board we can getrid of this one too.An arrogance that says if DD doesn't like the criticism,he can move on and someone else will take over.
I'd urge the fans who think this way to consider who will throw money at the club in return for the criticism if DD leaves.I'm sure the queue for that dubious plaeasure would be very short indeed.I'm not saying the board should not be challenged but many who criticise should be careful what they wish for.
BankieBhoy
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I think I can confidently say that the Celtic PR machine is a complete shambles to say the least. The comments made here over the last day highlight that point in clearer terms than I could ever hope to do.
Celtic have recently added Brian Wilson to the board. Now this is a man who was a journalist prior to becoming a politician. That means he must surely have extensive experience and knowledge in dealing with the media from both sides of the coin.
I'm not sure what his exact position is within the board, but I think that someone with his media experience could be a great help in sorting out the club's shocking PR record.
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bankiebhoy,
I must disagree and your answers seem to me those of a board apologist who is putting a positive spin on things that are definately not positive.
I agree the booing of Quinn was wrong but do you honestly think that DD statement was a good one and in the best interests of Celtic Football Club?
You say in one part that he was talking about a minorty in general and although the part I broke up generalises you say we should take it in context and it means the minority.
I disagree again. I think the whole statement generalises and taken it in context it criticises the support in general and only in very small references does he add in a comment about the minority.
“At this club, it seems the more money you invest, the more abuse you receive.”
You say "Can't see the generalisation of all fans that you see there.There is no inference that all fans are involved in this.Although this statement is factually incorrect there may be a perception from DD that this is indeed the case."
So you are saying it is factually incorrect and just a perception from DD but yet it is ok to go out as a statement.
“For me, the biggest disappointment of this season besides Martin’s departure was the reception that Brian was given by the fans that day. I’ll be honest – it changed my attitude towards the club.
You say "I'll admit,neither of the two things above rate as my biggest disappointment this season.But I'm not Dermot Desmond."
What's that about. My point was that it is disgraceful to preach to the fans about this with the heartache we went through and you say you agree but it is alright because you are not DD. Strange and I honestly think your views are blinkered by a pro DD alliance. If you disliked DD would you say his statement was good? I think the true answer is that you would have criticised it which means you are not looking at the specific statement in its individuality but taking the owner of the statement and backing him on other evidence outwith the statement. Which to an extent is fare enough but please give your views of the statement on their own. (I know you will probably come back with you can't because of the fact they are linked to the owner so impossible to separate. I disagree as I am someone who likes DD and agrees we can't spend what we haven't but I think the attack on the fans is unforgiveable)
“For the first time, I questioned whether I wanted to be associated with the kind of fans, albeit a minority, who would abuse and taunt a man who has put so much of his time and energy into developing their club. I was embarrassed and disgusted by the whole episode."
You say "I can understand why he would feel this way.I'm sure DD and BQ invest more time in Celtic than anyone would believe.How would anyone feel on a human level if you went to work every day but all you ever got was criticism?How long would you want to stick around?"
Why would we underestimate the time they spend in Celtic? We don't. We do get criticism every day at work from employees, customers etc etc and compared to any other football board I would say they do ok.
Again this is Celtic we want the best and I'm not going to let the Celtic family suffer because DD and BQ have had a hard day. If you've ever been involved in appraisals at work you would know you judge people not only on effort but results as well.
"I’ve never heard the fans say: ‘Let’s double the price of season tickets so we can use the funds to buy players.’”
You say "On reflection,this remark is unfortunate." Your having a laugh mate. It was disgraceful.
So even in your most positive spin you say he has said things that are factually incorrect and other things that are unfortunate but it was OK to do so because we are all to daft to see how hard he works and he doesn't get home to midnight.
The more I reply to replies makes me realise that this statement had not one bit of benefit for Celtic Football Club and it hurts me sore.
yours in disgust
tonybhoy
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BankieBhoy,
An excellent, well thought post. Anon at 10.42 is also correct that PR at our club is a complete shambles and has been for as long as I can remember (BQ's foot-in-mouth incidents are well documented).
The board as a collective or as individuals are not beyond criticism but there are ways and means of expressing that criticism that fall within what I would call the bounds of human decency.
The moronic mob that boo and cat call our club's custodians, in the manner that so incensed DD, bring nothing but shame on the club and the support. Can it be these same foul-mouthed cretins that that will bawl any profanity under the sun that are so upset when called on their behaviour? Are they really so fragile, these internet hardmen that they are on the point of apoplexy when someone dares to put forward an opposing view that challenges their shameful behaviour?
I've been a long admirer of Paul's optimism regarding the future of Celtic. Recent events (not just the reaction to DD, but over the last couple of years) are more and more making me question the long-term future of the club.
Anyone familiar with the E-Tims site will be familiar with Lachiemor's excellent articles. Now he has admitted that he is giving up his season book as supporting the club is becoming more of a chore than a pleasure. This has nothing to do with the style of football being played and is all to do with the style of 'support' being offered.
Boos and sighs when a pass goes astray.
Boos and abuse when the chairman tries to make an award.
Stadium emptying with 20 mins to go, no matter the score.
The list could easily go on. Our support is fragmenting before our eyes and rather than question ourselves it is human nature (i.e. much easier) to blame someone else. GFITW, faithful through and through? Give me a break. There's more to being a supporter than just turning up. It is about rousing your team when they are down, making your belief their belief. Anyone can cheer and sing when they're team is winning it takes true supporters to do it when things are not so good.
My belief is that we got too much to soon under MoN and the child-like element in our support have reacted to this exactly as a child would. They have become spoiled, insolent and demanding. Remember how we used to mock the Rankers support for their lack of voice during their NIAR? Well, it's only taken us 3 titles and 1 UEFA cup final to make us just as bad.
I hope for WGS's sake that he is a big success and that success comes quickly. If he fails to deliver immediately the calls for his head will be fast and loud. Hot on the heels of this will be the blame for the board. "They should have got Hiddink, Le Guen, Wenger...." As always, these calls will be made with no thought as to whether these people would actually want to come to the SP(H)ell or to whether men of this quality would want to coach team with such a fickle support.
I hope that one of this site's eloquent contributors replies to this post by ripping it to pieces. I could really do with something to lift the gloom.
Seville seems an eternity away right now...
Regards (as ever) to all
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Thanks for the link Cabbage.
I notice nothing has been mentioned in the newspapers or that clip about the negative media that Celtic receive, or indeed, the reaction of the fans to it which was also mentioned by DD.
Some people will never believe the facts.
How many instances have we had on this site where the facts are stated regarding finances & investment and can be verified very easily and independently?
How many times are these facts then replied to (normally by anon contributors)asking where is the £30000 million we made out of Seville and why can't we buy Raul, Ronaldinho etc etc.
It is unfortunate that DD has felt the need to speak out but if it is still niggling at him 2 months later, then he should get it off his chest.
Everyone is entitled to an opinion but at least make that heard, after understanding all the facts - 'understanding' being the operative word!!
The forum we have here is invaluable, it allows a good open debate and creates a little lateral thinking.
The education needs to carry on. Thats not supposed to sound patronising, I'm sure many on here have taken less notice of the traditional media since using CQN.
Totally agree with BankieBhoy, we should be careful of what we wish for and I deliberately use 'we'.
As supporters of this club we are in danger of only being as well behaved as the worst hooligan and as understanding and supportive as the loudest opponent of the board.
I would also like to know if Ms Findlay, from the Celtic Supporters Trust, had actually listened to the whole interview by DD or just the soundbites of a journo who then pushed a microphone under her nose.
I would bet it is the latter, yet she feels that she can comment for an organisation, which directly or indirectly includes all of us.
The comments that 'he (DD) hasn't lost any money' and 'the fans are the biggest source of revenue'.
The business has lost money, DD has made an investment , just like any supporter. Is she saying that he should have lost money or indeed the Celtic fans lose money when they 'invest' by buying a ticket or merchandise?
The fans are a big source of revenue, the proportion is about to change.TV/Streaming will be cash cow for us.
I also notice that on the same day that DD has made comment that the board should be thanked for bringing MON to CP in the first place and they always had the speculation he was leaving, MON gives the papers a headline about him almost joining Spurs 2 years ago and saying he only needed money for 2 players of European quality to make an impact on the CL. Who created the speculation then? Certainly not the board.
For some reason, that is MON's way. I think he was fantastic for us and there are very few things I would change about the last 5 years, but MON, you made mistakes too. He only needed 2 more players but if the board hadn't invested to the level they did, he would have needed 8 players. Its all relative.
Paul67, how do we up the ante and get the message over to not only the board but also the ordinary supporter? Will they allow a representative to board meetings (with the ability of direct input) and how else can we open the access to the 'real' stories?
We can't make everyone read or understand them but if they are accessible then that will be a start.
Another thing Paul67, why do you always have to come up with the answers? :-)
I don't care if DD makes a fortune but we are a much stronger club. I didn't care that Fergus quadrupled his money. In fact, he should be congratulated, they all should.
We cannot tell anyone how to invest their money or threaten them. As has been previoulsy stated we all have the chance for a piece of the action, don't complain if you don't take it.
Irresponsible comments from the CST do not help.
Sorry if some of this has been covered already.
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totally agree with tonybhoy except for one point.i had no problem with the booing of bq.to put it simply,our team played poor football this season,we all saw it coming,and the buck stops with the chairman.boo.
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Liam H- not going to rip your post to peices but going to agree.
understand fully what you mean and towards the end of the season it did become a chore, but then we lost the leaguE AND mon left.
watching Celtic should never become a chore its a passion and funnily enough i regained my passion watching MON press conference.
he made me see that the fire inside never dies and if you really care about the club then it will never leave.
Im sure the guy from E Tims will regret when the 1st day of the season when he is not at the game.
the traditional spirit of the support is still there, it was on my supporters bus on Saturday, it will be on my bus going to my stag night next week, it is always at away games.
problem is nowadays due to these fairweather supporters we have to look harder for it.
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Rammiebhoy, the board will not allow supporters representatives on to attend board meetings, there are many things wrong with this concept.
Better communication would be enough to get around the problem. The club are trying, they meet every month with the Supporters Association as well as meeting with the Supporters Trust.
I have also benefited from this ‘reach-out programme’ gaining access to the press conferences. If I am being truthful I suspect that the board know they need to improve communications but are unsure how to go about it.
Celtic Quick News can do its bit, and will hopefully do more in the future.
Great No 8, interested to discuss your Shareholders United experience as I have a
couple of thoughts, drop me an email to 1967@lisbonlions.com, thanks
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Paul67
Not surprised that the board are probably unsure about how to communicate more effectively.
It is a difficult proposition given the 'spin' of traditional media.
What about opening it up to the thoughts of the board for this specific issue?
As a salesman you'll know, find the solution to a problem and the deal is done.
Lets make their job easier and present options which they know will have backing from some sections (never all) of the support.
It is clear that there are enough individuals on this blog with the intelligence and probably professional experience, to contribute some interesting options.
We all have an opportunity, which has already been recognised with your inclusion to press conferences, to contribute.
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tonybhoy
We'll have to agree to disagree on this.You asked for those who agreed with DD 100% to respond.I have conceded that maybe one or two points could have been put better.
But,I have to say thet your second post does you less credit than the first.You have either failed to read my response properly or twisted what I said to suit yourself.
At no point did I agree that DD was wrong to preach to the fans.I said I agreed that the BQ incident and MON leaving were not my two biggest disappointments.If that wasn't clear then hopefully it is now.Also,I am by no means "blinkered by a pro DD alliance." This statement is judgmental in the extreme.He has been good for our club.Fact.
You say that DD is generalising about the support,but as a member of that support I don't feel his remarks are aimed at me.If his comments are wrong to be aimed at at all suporters,why don't I feel the same as you?
I have completed the odd appraisal or two in my time and one thing I would add to what you said is that at no time have I allowed rumour or insinuation to play a part in forming an opinion of the appraisee.Their performance is based on fact.Some supporters would do well to remember that and perhaps check the facts out when appraising the boards performance over the last few years.
Ultimately,I still believe DD has nothing to reproach himself for,even if one or two of his comments could have been more eloquently put.Like it or not.I presume not.
BankieBhoy
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Liam H "The moronic mob that boo and cat call our club's custodians"
Just as well the moronic mob were about in 94 to chase out the then custodians or you guys wouldnt be able to hold your love-in on here.
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Is it just me or is there some kind of class war starting within the support at the minute?
I have said here previously that it worried me that some of the comments recently seemed to suggest that if you were rich you couldn't be a "real" supporter.Is there some kind of power struggle going on? Or has it always been like this and I just never realised?
BankieBhoy
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I'm totally fed up with Desmond and Quinn treating the supporters with contempt. We are entitled to be heard and listened to. A lot of us who pay thousands to watch the team each year are simply taken for granted. I've not heard either of these two thank or praise us for our loyalty and support. Booing Quinn was the Right thing to do as we are fed up with the mentality that being average is ok. We demand the best and are entitled to a baord that shares our views not one that constantlty tells us tha we should be happy with our lot.
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If Dermot had been an average fan and posted on this site what he said,what would the reaction have been?More than likely the same?
Is it the view of most of the fans?
Do we not have a voice?Or a case of shut up and be quiet!
We have to meet somewhere in the middle,don't you think?
It's the only way to move forward.
Too many misunderstanding between board and fans,lets communicate more.
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Change of subject for a second,
Paul67,The Mole,Fargo,Great No.8, anyone?
I know Celtic had signed a young Canadian boy from Vancouver by the name of Jacob Lensky,he couldn't sign offically until December when he turned 16,Did he sign?
The usual names of,Kennedy,Maloney,
Wallace,McManus,McGeady,various other Scots/Irish are on everyones tongues,then we have the two Icelandic boys,and I'm sure a few others too.
Quite a few youngsters being bought in,is this a view to the near future or just trying to find the next exceptional young player?
Do you think WGS will go down this road too,go for the more experienced players or a mixture of both?
Would be nice to see a few young ones in the team to see how they fair over a season in the first team,it's not done the other SPL teams any harm.
Cabbage
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Rammiebhoy, I have been thinking alone the same lines. I suspect the Celtic would welcome a less confrontational platform to communicate on.
There has been the odd reference to the demonstrations in 1994 which precipitated the downfall of the old board. In essence that cause is being used as a justification for unrest directed at the current board.
The two scenarios could not be more different and it is important to continually repeat the facts as often as possible to as many people as possible.
To the Anon 1.12 who has never been thanked for his support by the board; if you were a season book holder you would get a letter each season thanking you for your support. If you were a shareholder you would get two letters a year thanking you for your support.
Small point, but it is a comment which is often made and seldom checked. Three thank you letters a year is enough for me.
Cabbage, I am waiting to see if they sign Riordan before publishing advice along the lines of ‘bin the youth system’. Apart from winning their leagues (which I applaud) in 20 years we have never produced a player who has fulfilled his promise.
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One aspect of Boogate that bemuses me is the accepted wisdom of the inalienable right to abuse, which is claimed by a "minority" of Celtic supporters.
Nowhere in the laws of God or Man does anyone have the right of physical, mental or vocal abuse over another, especially under the premise of paying their wages, or putting food on their table, etc.
Abusers are cowards.Whether it in the home, workplace or football stadium and instead of boasting of their "rights", they should really be seeking counselling for their problem.
Imagine standing at the bar of your local, being ignored by the bar person and subsequently issuing a torrent of abuse at the unfortunate employee because they were not performing to your expectations, and you paying their wages 'an all.
One of two things would happen.Either your backside would kiss the pavement or the heavy hand of plod would descend on the collar.
As we all know, the answer to unacceptable service is to remove your custom and starve the offending recipient of your patronage.Nothing secures a change of attitude of a business better than a drop in income.
Another myth which has grown legs is that verbal abuse of the Kelly/White board brought about their demise.Nonsense. Those people could withstand all the abuse in the world as they were without shame.
It was the city bankers that removed them, not the terracing bankers.By withdrawing financial support by not attending matches, the club was brought to the brink of ruin. Enter Fergus.Therefore, the only "right" we have is the right to buy the goods or not.
Perhaps it is a blessing in disguise, in more ways than one, that we lost the title, as we will be spared the embarrassment of whichever board member would have drawn the short straw being greeted by the faithfull. Then again ,the boo boys would be absent as hopefuly they would have withdrawn their patronage in order to effect change. Robroyston anybody.
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Regarding the DD/BQ booing matter, this is a tough one. I wish the public display of booing had not happened as it serves up fodder for our detractors.
Having said that,people who play on any theatre, including our own football theatre of dreams, leave themselves open to emotional feedback from the audience.
The learnings for the fans are: Does it really help the cause and the club overall?
Does it help our club image overall?
For the Board: Do you really understand the level of anxiety and displeasure there is among a large section of your club's supporters.
There are positives we can all take away from this.
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Paul67
Didn't mean to suggest anything confrontational.
I agree that the mood in 1994 (and the methods of the board at the time) are completely different from now.
The demonstrations, boycotts and threats of 1994 were the last resort to save the club, not just because we hadn't bought a top class striker. In fact, 2nd in the league was almost a dream, how short memories are.
Even at that time, nobody was 100% sure that Fergus would follow through with his promises. We just knew something had to be done. I still can't remember him really being welcomed with open arms after the Dempsey fall out.
In saying all that, I also feel that if supporters have a grievance, then it should be communicated. That doesn't mean booing, demonstrating or threats, it means a new forum for airing those views where they can be expressed and taken on merit.
I know I'm an idealist and I also know (and have seen on this site) that facts can be clearly stated and as easily ignored. There are some people who just wont accept the truth.
I am pro Celtic not pro the Board.
My own personal opinion is that they have done a good job, I would have liked to have seen a bit more of a gamble taken on occassions but how can we argue with where we are now? They have achieved more than we could have hoped for by recruiting MON and then the investment in the team.
The only way that the support can really show that we are different to any other club, as everyone keeps saying, is to understand why the Board make certain decisions, ensure they understand any concerns and most crucially Agree to Disagree on some matters.
I don't expect them to consult the fans on everything. I believe the real problem is communication and the media, not necessarily the decisions that have been made.
I am sure that if a few ideas were thrown around, the options for communication would be readily there to be discussed with the Board.
It has to work both ways and benefit everyone.
I am sure the Board are as desperate as we are to negotiate around the traditional methods and let us know whats going on.
The biggest issue that we need to understand is that there are certain times when specific answers should not be given e.g.
- How much is the transfer budget?
Commercial suicide to announce these things
- MON needs to leave and we'll look for someone over the next few weeks.
I can just see the reaction.
They have handled many awkward situations very well recently, we may be able to assist with that in the future.
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bankiebhoy
not meaning to get personal with you and your right my second post is more obstructive, which is probably down to my anger.
Trying to summarise a bit. I am (or was) a DD fan and think he has done a good job for us. I didn't think we should have booed BQ. But I am of the strong opinion that DD statement was 1) not beneficial in any way for Celtic Football Club and 2) a disgraceful slur on our supporters which the media have gladly utilised.
DD statement is the equivalent to booing the fans in public and if you ask me what's worse booing BQ or booing the fans then booing the fans is worse in my book.
I know you said that his 2 disappointments were not the same as yours and I did acknowledge that but you failed to comment on the fact that he was so out of touch with our feelings if that was his opinion.
Maybe the pro Desmond alliance jibe was uncalled for but I didn't deny he has done good for us but my point was that you are seeing it through DD glasses where as I am a DD fan who is seeing it for what it is worth and am raging with it.
For what it is worth I have felt let down by many fans this year and have questioned on websites our part in home defeats.
I take your point that the remarks are not directed at me but as club I feel self ridicule is the last thing we need in this country. Whether or not it is justified.
I never took any kind of rumours into my assement of the board but you have to ask yourself how is our communications performance.
Do you still think he has done nothing wrong.
Disgraceful comments that have totally changed my opinion of him.
I will finish by asking you a question.
Do you think the statement is in the best interests of Celtic Football Club?
Paul67. You silence is deafening
Tonybhoy
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The board do not give the supporters a platform to have an input except for the agm. Why are they afraid to have a supporters rep on the board, what % of shares are owned by ordinary supporters, why do we not get a say on how Celtic are run?
If we are kept in the dark all the time but expected to dig deep into our pockets year in year out then they must expect booing and jeering.
I paid 16.5% of my take home salary for last year into Celtic did DD pay 16.5% of his take home earnings...no i didn't think so.
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Link for the Scotsman article.
http://sport.scotsman.com/football.cfm?id=611872005
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Anon 12.56
"Just as well the moronic mob were about in 94 to chase out the then custodians or you guys wouldnt be able to hold your love-in on here."
I was there in '94 and supporting the hoops long before that. There is a big difference between the support ousting a corrupt board that had taken our team to within minutes of bankruptcy and the teddy-throwing nonsense that we have to put up with now.
The Kellys/Whites were crooks and I've no qualms with saying it.
I well remember the centenary title clincher against Dundee when you couldn't move inside CP, yet the crowd was supposedly 45,000. They were stealing from us, the supporters. Good riddance to bad rubbish.
What is going on just now is totally different. The club borrowed to support MoN's plans. The coffers were dry, yet the boo-brigade wanted more money spent.
As I said before, spolied little children crying because they didn't get their way.
The real problem with these cretins is that there mindless activities detract from reasonable supporters who DO still have issues with the way the club is run and projected. Unfortunately it all gets lost in the white noise of wailing put up by those who are just too lazy, stupid or both to look at the facts.
Regards to all
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I remember those days too Liam.You could hardly move at CP some days but attendance put at 26,000 or something ludicrous.I was young at the time and never really thought about it but now when i do think about it .........
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tonybhoy
Thanks for that last post.We both want the best for our club but on this occassion we don't see eye to eye.
To answer your question,I think the statement could be in the best interests of the club if it makes the supporters he is refering to have a think about the damage they could be doing to our club.
As I said before,we have a right as supporters and shareholders to ask questions of the board.But to boo the Chairman and criticise in print,on the radio and on the web with no attempt to suggest how they would do things better to me is unacceptable.
There is an element of our support that needs bringing down a peg or two.As I said previously,there is an arrogance about some of them that suggests they are the club.That they can do what they want and say what they want.I know because I work with people who are like this.
Well,while they can and do say what they like,I see no harm in DD telling them what the long-term consequences of their actions could be.The only problem is it could have nasty consequences for the club and not them personally.
Incidentally,people may think I live in a little cocoon but I don't care how this statement is perceived in the tabloids.I don't read them.Their opinions mean nothing to me.
BankieBhoy
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There is one question that should always be asked BEFORE the release of statements? e.g DD'S yesterday and BQ'S after our half yr results.
How will this be perceived and reported, with the emphasis on PERCEPTION.
For all the various talent that is on our board from hard nose bottom liners to the visionary the perception is that we penny pinch.
Rather than point the finger of blame, how can we change that perception?
This site has already seen the positive development of Pauls attendance at press conferences.
A small step perhaps, hopefully the
start of positive perception spreading to all Celtic fans.
I want to see the increased application of Savvy
in communications from Celtic,
how hard can it be?
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Tonybhoy, I am working on a considered response.
Terry O’Neill, I am sure each one of us would have cautioned DD before releasing this.
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Here's me taking a flyer - How do you think the majority of Celtic fans would feel if If we were to offer Liverpool our place in the Champions League qualifiers? We are going to be in a transition period next year and the chances of us doing well in the CL are slim. We have always had a great relationship with Liverpool so why not. Whether Liverpool accepted it or not is another matter - but it would certainly raise our profile down South.
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On a slightly different note, I found it extremely ironic that MON chose to give his "first, last and only" one-to-one interview with Glenn Gibbons of the Scotsman.
I've found that The Scotsman and Scotland on Sunday tend to be a bit snobbish when it comes to most things from the west coast, but have to say that their reporting of Celtic is probably the most balanced and fair coverage out there.
It also tells you something about what MON thinks of Mr Gibbons' west coast counterparts.
GM
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We all want to see improved communication at CP, mabey this should be seen as a watershed.
DD dosn't make statements lightly and would know full the consequenses of his statement before releasing it.
He should have considered however that in a Celtic context he needs us every bit as much as we need him. I feel that this statement has alienated himself and the board further from the ordinary Celtic supporter
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The more time I've had to think about this one the more angry and frustrated I've become.
This is a new era for the Hoops and what I think what the support would like to have heard from DD at such an important time is a rallying call.
Instead what we have is probably the most devisive statement I can remember coming from the Parkhead board room in a long time.
All in all this board has probablly done a lot more good than bad.
But whatever your opinion on the merits of the board I think most Tims would agree DD has scored a massive own goal with these comments.
He comes across here as being every bit as arrogant, spoiled and aggresive as the fans he lamblasts for booing BQ.
Maybe that was his intention. To give those who booed a dose of their own
medicine?
Whatever, I think all he has achieved here - apart from gifting the media another anti-Celtic story - is the creation of a huge wedge between the board and the support, the majority of which I believe were generally appreciative of the boards sound financial management of the club.
Why did he feel the need to say what he did? I think it may be a mix of anger and arrogance.
Although its worth noting that he came out with this after the renewal date for season tickets.
On the subject of season tickets I think his most insulting and offensive comment - and the one most likely to anger and isolate fans - is that about the support not calling for an increase in season ticket prices to fund new players.
How crass is this man. Has he no idea how deep we have to dig to pay for tickets, merchandise, TV subscriptions etc.
As has already been pointed out I bet the average fan contributes a lot more of their income of Celtic than DD.
For this comment alone DD should apologise.
If he doesn't, and he really has that much contempt for the ordinary decent fan, then maybe we are better off without him?
I always thought DD was much maligned by some sections of the support but he is now digging his own grave. Has he forgoten that Celtic is as much mine and yours as it is his?
I'm sorry for the ramble lads. I hope it makes some sense as I've had to type it out quickly as I'm all set to head out to work.
Hail! Hail!
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Supporting a football team means different things to different people. In the main all Celtic supporters want the same thing, success on the pitch, but have differing views on how it can be achieved. I seem to remember the fall out when Fergus shipped us off to Hampden for a year agianst the advice of the rest of his directors who wanted to buy a team to compete with Rangers. And how the press loved it. Football is money first and football skill/players and fans last.
What we have now is a board who view success in pounds, shillings and pence and are running the show accordingly. And as DD is the head honcho, he calls the shots as to how this is done. If the man had any balls at all he should have come out immediately after the game against Hearts and rightly rebuked the booing minority. But he didn't, he waited till all the season ticket money was safely locked away and the manager's position revealed then dumped on the fans, who having taken a pounding from all sides following the Well disaster were just starting to feel good about the future again.
All the season ticket money come from our pockets, we buy the strips, programmes, pies, dvds and we subscribe to the awful TV channels that show our team. Instead of saying thank you DD threatens to take his money out. This kind of chat reminds me of all the chat in the press about how much money Murray has "pumped" into Rangers. He bought shares at the start, giving £6m to the previous owner and right up until their recent hide the £40m in an MIM subsidiary rights issue he didn't put a penny in, the punters did. DD might have taken a small stake at the start and added some more at the last rights issue but I don't think it was all his cash as he has a group of investors involved with him. Taking the money out would involve him selling to somebody else not taking our cash out of Celtic.
DD is a businessman first and is obviously trying to goad the fans into giving him an excuse to jump ship. As for BQ he should not be allowed out in public again unless he is going to be positive and should certainly have his mobile phone taken off him. I know that he is trying to manage expectations (down as always) but he must know that he is not particulary popular (have we ever had a popular chairman/chief exec) and that usually there is a big mess to clean up after he speaks (or texts).The board don't appreciate a bit of stick from fans who aren't the richest in the world and who scrimp and save for away matches, home matches, testimonials and anything else the marketing dept dream up to throw at us. Sitting in the padded seats, getting your "half time pie" delivered and enjoying a relaxing drink after the game while waiting for your driver to whisk you home doesn't seem to reflect my version of our traditions.
We will find out in the fullness of time what DD is up to, but in the mean time if he doesn't like to be associated with our sort (whether booing or sitting on our hands)then don't talk the talk, walk the walk. Very few successful people issue threats, they act as that is the best way to send out a message.
Just when I thought the therapy sessions following the Well game were working.
Gerry
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Like most people, I'm (still) concerned about Desmond's comments. Today, the papers are running back page headlines about how Celtic fans disgust him. His comments are fodder for this type of media.
He did have a go at the media, which interestingly WASN'T reported, but surely by making these comments he knew they were going to be reported with "Celtic in Crisis" headlines that MON commented on. Desmond had a go at the press for trying to divide the fans from the board and then he makes these comments! He's not a stupid man which is why this worries me...
TinneyBhoy
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The Scotsman is the only Scottish paper i read now.It is the only one where I have seen in print from a Scottish journalist that it is a lie that "one side is as bad as the other" when it comes to bigotry and sectarianism.He (Robert McNeil) puts the blame fairly and squarely on our friends from the other side of the city.The other journalists such as Gibbons are also fair.
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An after thought...
While I remain concerned about Desmond's recent comments, I'm still convinced that we will ultimately benefit with him at the helm. A man worth over £800m is a good man to have around...
Paul, are you aware of any benefits of Desmond owning Betda, the world's second biggest betting exchange which, according to reports, has a near-monopoly on the Asian football betting market which is huge, nay, astronomical? Perhaps this could be a card of his to be played at the "are you gonna let us join the EPL or what?" table... Like I say, he could be a useful man to have around.
TinneyBhoy
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Shammy said..
Just spoke to a guy in the pub who is related to a player who plays for Spurs. He was saying that Spurs have signed Andy Johnson from Crystal Palace. Is this more proof that Robbie Keane is looking for a new club?
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Dermot Desmond's comments. Don't take them personally. Think about the atmosphere at Celtic Park last season. Think about BEING Brian Quinn when he was derided in public. Think about how the crowd (not you personally) behaved at home matches. I would take this board before ANY OTHER IN THE HISTORY OF THE CLUB.
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Then I got further up (I always start CQN from the back page. A habit from when the Daily Record was my parents' paper of choice)and read Gerryb67. This sentence "DD is a businessman first and is obviously trying to goad the fans into giving him an excuse to jump ship."
If DD wants to jump ship, he will. he doesn't need an excuse, he's a businessman. But that just might goad him.
Brian Quinn is doing the best he can, and I think it's a pretty good effort. I remember the Kellys and the opportunity they squandered (European Champions and runners up in a 4 year period). SQUANDERED. SQUANDERED.
\o mistypes there. A generation of Celtic supporters lost their heritage. Paul McStay, Tommy Burns, Brian McClair, you deserved bettter. But then so did my sons.
Quinn, Desmond, O'Neill. They got us to a place we never were before. Genuine contenders, which even in 1966 we weren't. Jock's genius.
Let's stop questionning the motives of people who might actually make some money out of our success and just enjoy the success. Whoever you are, whatever you do, even if you're just buying the Daily Record, somebody is making money out of it. Which is why this website exists, I think.
Desmond, Brian. You're not MON, but I think you're doimg a great job and GS, initials part, is a stroke of genius. Well, we'll see, but it's good start. And if you've any spare cash or football strips, there's this lovely little school in Madras just waiting to produce our top goascorer of 2015.......
PS. Has anyone spotted MON's blog today?
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Chennaiseabird I'm intrigued. Are you saying that MON posts on CQN?
TipTop
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Paul:
Looking at the number, coherence and relevance of the postings over the last few days, will you think again about imposing a couple of restrictions on the board? You did say there'd be no more anonymous postings - speed that day. Even better, impose a limit on every correspondent of, say, two posts per topic.
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annon 9.36
Well, I'm not saying he does or he doesn't. I'm just asking if anyone has spotted it. But I just wish I'd been able to have Tommy Burns, Gordon Strachan, Neil Lennon and Michel Platini in my midfield. With John Robertson or Jimmy Johnstone (only kidding John) on the wing. And John Hughes (the original) through the middle. Big Good John.
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Shammy said..
Being a Tim living in Scotland is a struggle at the best of times.
Having to put up with the negativity that is the
Scottish media is bad enough without DD giving
them an easy story.
He mentioned the unfortunate times when he actually has to read the Scottish Press.
Well I hope he enjoys the free dinner he gave to the rags today. They have taken great pleasure in sticking the boot into Celtic courtesy of DD.
DD, we are in this together, we all care. We boo BQ (although I didn't) because we care as much as you. Not everyone follows or understands the finances of running a football cub. All we know is that we love the club. We all want the same. Please don't under-estimate the fans. We boo because we care.
The next time you have something to say, then please say it
thru' the club. Let us know your plans for the future. Tell us what you want for the club. Tell us what you expect from the fans. Speak to us directly thru' the club, not thru' a feeking newspaper.
We must stick together, don't give the media the ammunition to divide us, we must stick together.
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Then again, having discussed with GS, we think that Lubo would be better value than the Frenchman, especially if we had big Roy at the back.
Sorry Delia, more than twice a night. But then, I've been out here
for a while.
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Haven’t posted for a while so I’ll try to keep it short.
Firstly on the DD thing. I am reminded of the time at Dens Park where Neil Lennon, after enduring a barrage of abuse, made his views known to the Dundee fans by sign language. Oh, the righteous indignation – “How dare he make such rude gestures!” – we have only been goading his for the best part of an hour. I am pretty sure that it would not have been the worst thing seen or heard by children in the Dundee stand that day by quite some way. How many of the people who have posted on here today have themselves suggested that DD “put his hand is his pocket”, or that “he doesn’t really love Celtic or he would…” or similar. Yes, it is ok for you to call him out but heaven forbid that he should call you out. “He’s lost my respect”, yes I did laugh out loud at that one.
DD, BQ and the rest of the board (with MON’s help) have done pretty well for our club. If, 5 years ago, you had been asked, “How about three championships out of five in the next 5 years, and we will miss the other two by oh, lets say 3 goals or so” would you have said yes? I would certainly have taken off your hand for that. The memory isn’t quite what it should be – how many did we win in the previous five seasons?
I would agree with those who complain about communications from Celtic Park. We need to be given a clearer picture of where the board wants to take the team (and the company). I would be delighted if this could be achieved and I think that things like inviting Paul67 to press conferences is a small indicator that perhaps the board are looking to address this issue. The have a job on their hands with some of the selective reporting which goes on in this country (for mostly commercial reasons). However I would be keen for someone to give me an example of another football team who communicate better with their fans. A yardstick against which we can measure ourselves. Over the few weeks I am going to “do the research” as Paul67 would put it. I want to see whether there are any clubs who put the message across much better than Celtic. If anyone can point me in the right direction I’d be grateful. My concern is that the generic mission statement of all football club boards is to win stuff and beat the other local lot.
Paul67 you had a post quite a long time ago about setting goals (like achieving a reasonable level in Europe) it might be a good time to update this and repost. It would also be good to get feedback from Celtic Park on the Mission Statement for the Club for the next 5 years.
For some reason as I am writing this (ed – drinking him, surely not) I am reminded of the Monty Python sketch about the four Yorkshiremen:
…
Third Yorkshireman: You were lucky to have a lake! There were a hundred and fifty of us living in t' shoebox in t' middle o' road.
Fourth Yorkshireman: Cardboard box? You were lucky!
…
“Three championships in five years and a week off from watching The Bill”, YOU WERE LUCKY. (Or, more prosaically, we had a great manager and a good board backing him).
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Stevie 61
You should add too your last blog the best supporters in the world ( UEFA, FIFA) who have been taken for granted for far to long.
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I'm curious as to whether the shirt sales from Ireland would help fund a Robbie Keane transfer?
There would surely be a huge burst in shirt sales over there, or at least a significant one.
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Paul
Time to end this thread methinks; I have read every one of the posts on the DD press release and for the most part have been moved by the strength of feeling amongst the contributors; it's testimony to the passion which we all have for this great club that we can engage in such an exchange and still find common ground in the context of our continuing support.
Some of the posts have bordered on the agressive but I'm pleased that the majority of contributors have not risen to the bait. That speaks volumes about the quality of debate on this site.
To the minority who continue to try to justify booing the Board ( or even worse the players ) because you deem it your right having paid your money I would say this: the gutter press will jump on your behaviour much quicker than DD's or BQ's in their relentless quest to undermine our historically magnificent spirit.
I repeat earlier calls on this site : don't buy the rags; don't give them the oxygen of your patronage!
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TinneyBhoy, I had no idea DD owned a betting exchange. Agree, he is a useful man to have around.
Delia, I am now deleting comments with aggression or disrespectful language which will remove retorts to them by default. I need to check with taggsybhoy and hear from any other regulars who have problems getting an account of logging in (I have been sampling this week and had difficulty creating an account).
Stevie61, I remember the previous article well. My thoughts are long term objectives are centred on getting into England leading to world domination.
We will not hear this officially, but I have no doubt this is the case. Short term objectives are all we take seriously at the moment.
I had the same thoughts about the Neil Lennon incident.
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DD was right to make comment now about the Quinn incident. No other time would have been appropriate and in my view it needed to be logged with the Celtic fans. I've seen a wave of positive stories since WGS was appointed, AND THERE WILL BE MORE TO COME. I think DD has been extremely wise in timing his comments as he has.
It still leaves a bitter taste for me the way Fergus was booed at CP unfurling a League Championship flag - the first one in a decade and it would have been another decade but for the wee fella putting his money where his mouth was when nobody else was.
We are a diverse type, the Celtic support, and we, more than any club on the face of the earth, will never be able to please all of our people at any time.
Waste all our money, nearly bankrupt us and win hee-haw. Kelly & White. Unanimous - OUT.
Save the club, use our money well, build a stadium, give us back dignity and stop 10. Fergus. Unanimous - THREE CHEERS? Nope. Significant minority - BOO.
Give lots of cash to Dalglish/Barnes (minuted objection by Fergus at Board meeting in Ireland to appointment of Dream Team). Squandered £15million. Unanimous - OUT.
Appoint MON. Unanimous - YES? Nope. Significant minority wanted Hiddink.
Board give MON millions to spend despite millions lost with previous manager. In Debt for years as a result. Verdict - EXCELLENT, but can't be continued without risking Kelly/White scenario.
Lose millions almost every year due to wages and amortisation required to bring MON signings. Majority - SPEND MORE. Minority - be careful of Leeds Utd precedence.
Result - minority boo Quinn for doing balancing act.
We are a fickle and diverse bunch. We all want the same, but react differently to the reality of footballing life in Scotland.
We can't blame the board for some of MON's less succesful signings, and there have been a few. But we scream "give more money", despite the fact that reasonable amounts have been spent less than wisely than we would have liked.
We really should be thankful that Quinn and Desmond have been in charge and not Kelly and White. We should have been thankful for wee Fergus, and most if us were.
I hope we don't look back in a few years and wish we treated the current Board better, the way most of us do when we look back at wee Fergus.
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Paul, as requested befoore... When you are referring to a comment that someone has made, can you put the posters name and 'time' of post so it is easier to look back on what you are commenting on.
A small request to improve the excellent content of the site.
Hail Hail..
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GM 6.38
Interested to note your comment on the exclusive "first and last" interview granted by MoN to Glenn Gibbons of the Scotsman.
You quote the irony of granting the scoop to an East Coast journalist over the taboid Westies. In fact, the afore mentioned Mr.Gibbons is a Possilpark lad, who was a school contemporary of mine at the now sadly demolished St.Augustine's Secondary school in Milton, Glasgow.Notwithstanding his background, I have always found him to be a fair and balanced journalist and a credit to his profession, even though he was a wee nyaff at school. I also concur with your sentiments on Boogate and share your fears on the class war that appears to be manifesting itself within our ranks. Perhaps it is the silly season and all will be well, if GS1 puts out an attacking minded team next season, in contrast to MON's turgid endeavours of last year. The King is dead, etc.
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Simply put, the PUBLISHING of DD's comments was inappropriate at a time when everyone should have been uniting behind our new manager. What good did it serve Celtic for our major shareholder to be attacking his own customers? It wouldn't happen in any other business.
Going back in time, Brian Quinn came out days before the Hearts game, after the release of reasonable interim accounts, to say there would be no extra money for the manager. Why did he say that? Are we eternally destined to shoot ourselves in the foot? The plethora of press articles afterwards ensured that his appearance on the Saturday would merit a muted response, or even a hostile one from a voluble minority. Who among the Celtic PR team did not see that coming?
Solution? One I mooted years ago - institute the title of Honorary President, and give it to Billy McNeill.
Would anyone have booed if Caesar had come out to make that presentation to the Villarreal supporters? Would anyone boo if he was the one introducing speakers at the AGM? The title would be ceremonial, but it would also give our greatest-ever captain (and a shrewd media operator) the chance to speak to our boardroom wallahs and give them solid advice.
That apart, it is clear our PR right hand does not know what our PR left hand is doing. Having people in place at Parkhead and also paying a fortune to an outside agency does not help.
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Anon 12:25
You say it as it is...
Regards as always, to you all
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There's a rumour going about that a huge "swoosh" has appeared in the North Stand this week.
Anybody been inside the Stadium lately that can confirm or rubbish?
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Fergus invests 9 million the fans 20 million. Ra bunnet walks away with 40 million not a bad days work.
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Anon @ 5.51am,
What's your point?
Are you saying you would have said to Fergus "no thanks" on 4th March 1994 if you knew then the figures involved?
He told us exactly what he intended to do after 5 years and did it to the letter. He said he would make a pretty penny, nobody else was willing to take the gamble on - he was.
He got his profit, we got our stadium, our shares, our pride, our dignity, our base to build upon and the foundations for the best times we've had in a generation.
I would have looked the wee man straight in the eye....er, well, sort of :)...on 4th March 1994 and said "DEAL".
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Hleb says he was offered a deal from Celtic but didn't accept as his current team were no worse than Celtic,maybe we should give him another offer again.
Negative Anon,
The house investments in Barrowfield are looking better as the days pass,time I took down the boards and installed some windows.
Cabbage
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Tom the Tim, I wasn't aware of Mr Gibbons' background. Thanks for the info.
My point wasn't really about giving an interview to an east coast journalist, it was more about giving one to an east coast publication.
Also, MON didn't only snub the west coast tabloids (which any right thinking person would do), he also snubed The Herald.
Indeed, I find the snide undertones of articles written by Braodfoot and Wilson to be just as irritating as the in your face crap found on the back pages of the tabloids. Maybe MON was of the same opinion?
I've recently made a conscious effort to cut out all exposure to the Scottish media (both listening and reading), but I may give the Scotsman a go. If it's good enough for MON, it's good enough for me.
All the best.
GM
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Paul, any thoughts on Peter Lawwells comments on developing the current training facilities?
I know you did an excellent post easrlier about alternative opportunites.
Did you put those ideas to the club?
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Newcastle fans think they are signing Chris Sutton. It's on the Sky website apparently.
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Hopefully not, ghirl. In my opinion Sutty ranks ranks not that far below the King in terms of contributing to our success over the past 5 years.
Indeed, I don't think he gets the recognition he deserves. He is literally an unsung hero.
I reckon there's still life left in his ageing bones. Punt Hartson and get Sutty back up front where he belongs.
GM
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I love this new pro board status that more and more on the site are now taking, like we're not worthy and should be greatfull for everything they've done for us.
Maybe its time the board were a little more greatfull for everything we've done and continue to do for this great club of ours not their's and treat us a little better, and not simply as turnstyle fodder.
The board should simply be more truthfull with us supporters and they would find more and more will come on board with them rather than be against them, if they continue to treat us in the manner which they do they will find they will simply alienate themselves more and more for the majority of supporters.
Desmonds statments were at I though harsh on us the supporters. If they paying support many who have been at the club longer than Quinn and Desmond, feel the need to display their unhappyness at the running of our club they have everyright to do so and have my full backing. Maybe they should simply take their custom and money elsewhere, but the board know that this will not happen, they hark on about football being a business to an extent is it but there are huge differences, they only take the parts they like.
For Desmond to comment that he'll never stand in the way of anyone putting money into Celtic and he' never heard the fans say lets double the season ticket price and give all the new money to transfers to me is shocking. Coming from a man worth who's estimated worth is 900 million or so, I can't believe it, does he's not realise where our club draw a large majority of its support ? Many Celtic fans come from low income, their yearly wage would be Desmonds lose change. The club have a turnover in excess of 60 million where does he think that money comes from ? The Celtic support do back this club massively, look at the share issues, new strip last year, possible 3 new strips this year, then next year possible change of sponser resulting in 3 new strips again, these will all sell massively. The large majority of the clubs turnover comes from us not them.
I've stated before Celtic support can put upwards of 10% of their annual income into the club each year does Desmond ?
Them to moan about anti Celtic biased in the media and that we let it split us, maybe if the club had decent PR or they simply cam eout and told us, via there own paper their own website or simply in the media its self, the media would find it much hadder to split the support.
Lets not critise each other, and play tit for tat, lets get behind our new manager and support him, but getting off our hands and singing and backing him and the team, lets get the atmosphere back into Celtic Park, lets not boo players who pass the ball backwards when winning, lets not moan because people jump up and down and celebrate Celtic, if you want to sit on your hands in silence for 90 minutes go to the pictures and see a good film, let support the club like we once did and hope that the board will give us our place and realise that it would only take small steps to get us all singing from the same hym sheet.
Rant over breakfast time.
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