 Monday, June 06, 2005
Desmonds outburst and risk of a Glazer style takeover at Celtic
After a long hard season we could all have done without Dermot Desmonds introspective on Friday, though he said little different than I had said myself back in April.
As with most things Celtic, minor details tend to obscure the big picture, and there is an unpleasant big picture lurking behind this story.
Whether Celtic move to the Premiership or not, sooner or later Dermot Desmond will sell his shares and pass control of the club onto a new owner.
If we stay in Scotland £40million might be enough to buy Celtic, in England the fee will be several times this. Either way there is no chance a large portion of his shares will be bought by small, Celtic supporting, shareholders.
Celtic will either have to find a new sugar daddy, a prospect I find risible, or it will pass into the hands of an investor will a commercial return to take care of.
There are essentially two types of commercial investors, and the recent history of Manchester United illustrates both.
Cubic Expression, together with several institutional shareholders were satisfied to allow Manchester United to tick along returning profits of around 10-15% of turnover, when the business could easily be more profitable. Trouble is, in the commercial world this kind of arrangement will never last very long at a club like Manchester United or Celtic. Inevitably someone will come along and flood the shareholders with so much cash they will sell.
Glazer will now embark on a programme to maximise his return, which will certainly mean brining in new revenues, but will also mean allocating a much greater portion of revenues towards dividends. Unfortunately for United fans they will soon be bought out of their club – no longer shareholders, just customers.
Celtics turnover is circa £70million with current costs slightly more than this each year. It would not take a financier of Glazers standing to raise the £40million (or more if we are in England) and buy Dermot Desmonds shares.
We are vulnerable to a small-time corporate raider.
If I was the corporate raider and Celtic was not the victim, I would sell players who had a high transfer value and build a low cost team– not unlike Rangers have been doing recently.
I would cap expenditure at £40million a year, and look to clear over £20million annually for myself. I might even sell and lease back Celtic Park to help me clear my debts.
It is that easy to make serious money out of Celtic, just watch David Murray do something similar at Rangers over the next few years.
Under these circumstances I am sure Brian Quinn would tell me where to stick the £15,000 per annum he gets to chair the board. No worry, I would have enough cash to hire a PR-friendly telephone-wise chairman to sell my spin to the fans.
The only person capable of delaying this inevitable slide towards soulless commercialism is Dermot Desmond. If he wants to get as much money as possible for his shares, he will sell to someone with the same financial objectives as Malcolm Glazer.
The chances of attracting someone with substantial wealth who will allow Celtic to run at a loss for six consecutive years as Desmond himself has done is remote. Few of these people would put up with the hassle or media interest that comes from owning Celtic.
The best scenario we can hope for is that Desmond finds someone to sell to in much the same way Fergus did. Someone he can trust not to exploit the club for every penny possible.
Desmonds succession is the most serious threat to the future of Celtic Football Club.
That Dermot Desmond does not read this kind of discussion in Scottish newspapers is not an act of bias; it is a result of ignorance of the facts. Celtic could do so much better at getting their message across. David Murray does, I even find Celtic fans tell me how generous he has been to Rangers recently (see if I need to explain to one more Celtic fan the story of the £50million….).
As such, Desmond was wrong to publicly criticise supporters as he done last week. As regular readers will know, I argue this point here with all comers, but I seldom find a Celtic fan wilfully misleading anyone. That Quinn was booed was as much a result of poor communication from Celtic as bad manners.
The media owe Celtic nothing and we should not look for them to do our work for us. I do though, care little for the quisling Celtic fans in the media who on the one hand readily admit that finance is not their strong point, but still harangue our club on the subject with the objective of selling the tat they call advertising.
When you are in a position to influence opinion, ignorance of the facts is not a green light to harm Celtic.
241 Comments:
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I'm all worried now, really hope this wont happen. I'm away for a drink to console myself.
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Hi Paul, dont get mad, but can you tell me the story of the 50 million? did it go somewhere ppl dont know about?
Ped
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I don't think anyone here has a spare £40m, so we should all be listening when DD talks. There's no real answer to the question you raise here Paul.
As I've said before. Bring on the EPL, I'll be happy to see our scottish hacks try to keep up, and try to keep in a job.
A small point regarding people with influence. I was listening to Off The Ball the other week, Tam "I laugh at all my own jokes ,me" Cowan was saying how well behaved all the fans were at Motherwell on the last day of the season. He then says that Celtic fans beat up some bloke in a wheelchair. I don't want to condone violence in any form, but if that were Gorgeous George Galloway, we'd find Messers Cowan and Lekkie in the dock facing slander charges (or is it still libel in the broadcast media?).
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Paul,
If some of DD customers who frequent his 5 star resorts complained about the decline in standards, would DD publically crtiicise those high rollers in the same fashion? I think not. He has shown his utter contempt for the people who actually pay the bills at CP. I didn't boo Brian Quinn, though I understood the reasons behind people who did. Our very own Dr Doom couldn't have picked a worse time to put himself forward to receive a presentation on behalf of the fans/club. Timing is everything. His comments are a disgrace and I liked the way the offical website was quickly changed to Desmonds Disappointment. Ha! What a surprise that this has come out after the renewal deadline has passed. DD has certainly managed to put a halt to the positive stories that had been prevalent of late.
Yes we need his money but to say he isn't in it to make money is a tad naive. Is it possible he bought out Fergus' shares and has since been unable to make the kind of profit he'd be looking for? Maybe I'm selling his 'emotional attachement' short I don't know the man afterall. I'd be interested to know just how much he has put in and how much he's got out through dividends. Do you know Paul?
Anyway, I daresay going by the posts on here the other day that I am in the minority on this site. I thought his comments were a joke and whilst I agreed with dismay about the booing I can't believe he thought it'd be the right time to come out and launch a tirade against us.
Incidently Paul, DD doesn't own the club. You mention 'owner' several times, he is NOT the owner of Celtic PLC. Though judging by his behaviour he thinks he is.
qmark
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Paul,
a couple of questions. How much have Celtic paid out in dividends since Dermot took over? Would we have made a loss if these weren't paid? Does Dermot expect to make income on his shares? How much exactly is Quinn paid for his job? I also think Quinn is disliked for his arrogant attitude shown towards supporters at the AGM, this is as much part of the reason he was booed as anything. They think it is their club and we have no right to question them. Dermot obviously thinks it bad manners to boo Mr Quinn yet doesn't think it's bad manners not to show up at the AGM. I think this article is bit pro the board but you maybe have more information than i do as to what goes on behing the scenes.
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We may have to rely on DD's word that he is a fan of Celtic. Any fan of Celtic would not sell out to a small-time corporate raider. Paul, if you are able to identify the pitfalls then DD will be able too. Him being the "real" fan he says he is should prevent him from railroading Celtic down this route. You, me, my mate Barrie... every Celtic fan would not appreciate this option and I doubt DD will too.
DD has, for ever and a day, talked about moving south to the EPL. I hope, and suspect, that he will wait until this either happens or is a dead duck in the water before deciding the what he will do next.
We need to trust DD's judgment and him having Celtic's interests at heart. He is a fan after all...
TinneyBhoy
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The very fact that Desmond would want to sell his shares surely proves that he is not , as I suspect, a born & bred Tim.
If he had thought about it and realised that the MAJORITY of people who go to CP hand over a far higher percentage of their income to the club than he does - he should have took the proverbial "fifth".
Paul, your "well he's the best of a bad bunch" defence of Desmond is rather strange.
As I have said in previous posts, when messrs Magnier & McManus invest their cash (no doubt after a hard slog on some Carribean golf course owned by DD)we then move to the EPL . We will become another corporation to compete with Man Utd Plc. We will be no different to the Tesco/Asda/Sainsbury/Morrissons supermarket battles , except we will probably be the equivalent of Kwik Save or whatever. Do you think when the Coolmore mafia are counting their cash after selling on there will be any sense of regret or even a tinge of sentimentality ?
Of course not.
It seems to me that a move to England may put this club finally out of reach of the "ordinary" supporters. A level of dissafection which will surpass the 1990's. However, to stay in Scotland seems unacceptable too.
I guess it's a case of be careul what you wish for.
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I think we are all missing the point on why Quinn was booed. We were in the run in to the end of the season trying to win the league and we were 2-0 down to Hearts? if we had been 2-0 up against hearts he would have received a hearty cheer and a wee chorus of "one Vila-real".
However, for Desmond to react the way he did is quite unbelievable, he was at least petulant and could be described as childish "shout at my pal again and I'll take my ball/money away".
He is no mug, nor is he petulant or childish, he is working his exit strategy and I fear Paul that your predications of Dermot leading us to the promised land may very well be flawed.
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I don't agree with DD's comments either but I also don't go along with the idea that he is 'working his exit strategy'. If he decides to go he will go and won't bother making excuses to do it either.
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Ped, I’ll dig out the article and post a link later.
Qmark, DD has effective control and is likely to have complete ownership there for the taking if he wants it in 2007.
Northstand 404, don’t confuse your personal feelings for the board with the reality that Celtic can be sold for a lot of money to a Glazer type. Celtic are now a commercial vehicle and this is all just a matter of time as far as I am concerned. The longer we delay the better.
And, yes, we would still have lost lots if we did not pay dividends.
Tinneybhoy, I agree with you on this one.
San Miguel, we need to face the reality that Celtic is not a workers cooperative. Like it or not it is a commercial company and we need to bring the right kind of pressure on our board.
DD might not want to sell his shares, but unless he knows the trick to eternal life he will make an exit on day. If he is looking out for the interests of Celtic he will plan how to make his exit.
Anon 12.47, I think worrying about the rights and wrongs of booing is missing the point. Look at the big picture and look at the sentiment between fans and major shareholder, then tell me what we should be worrying about.
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I haven’t posted for months, but I’ve been following the discussions avidly.
Part of the PR problem was Martin O’Neill’s periodic announcements that he needed “4 or 5 new players”, and then when he was given money he proceeded to throw it at his existing squad.
This management style brought a great deal of success, and it was only this season that the cracks showed. However Martin could have been more honest about what he was doing. The board were forced to take the flak about being tight-fisted, when there was plenty of money being spent. The board were either too polite or too scared to criticise Martin, and the frustration this caused is evident in the notorious Quinn voice-mail.
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Paul,
Maybe I am missing something here, but the link between the fans and board will never be great no matter who is in charge. Most supporters have no concept of business management and what the board even do, they will always see them as the guys who "don't spend money". I suppose we could go down a Murray route and spin everything and get a better PR, but we would see through that eventually. I also think its fair to say that Celtic are probably the most "political" club in football with a lot of fans who have a politic background of one sort or another.
What should we be worrying about? we should be focusing as a club on the business problems and I believe the biggest is that we are paying way over the odds for certain players and should move them on and stop being the sentimental fools we are. One thing (the only thing) that always impressed me about SOuness at Rangers was how ruthless he was on the transfer market, as soon as they looked like getting over the hill, out they went and for a fee.
As for DD, what other reason could he have for his statements, this guy is cynical and does nothing without a reason.
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Does anyone know the extent of DD investment in Celtic? Compared to the amount he's been paid through dividends? Paul if you know I'd love it if you could share that with us.
As for looking for more investment from the fans. What? Like the reinvest the dividends plan that was rejected out of hand? Hmmm, can't imagine why that was.
qmark.
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Hi Paul,
If you rise to the prospect, would you post under the mask of SugarDaddy67?
Our good amigo Fargo could give you some tips on alternative handles.
Have a great day, cheeky one.
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Sorry to go on about transfer targets again, but after my post of a couple of days ago the situation has changed. With both Riordan and Hartley allegedly being available for £0.5M each, and with this assumed budget of £10M, we could now do the following:
Paddy Kenny (Sheff Utd GK), 27 years old, for £1.5M
Derek Riordan (Hibs) 22, for £0.5M
Paul Hartley (Hearts) 28, £0.5M
Tommy Miller (Ipswich) 26, for £1M
Bellamy (25), 1 yr loan for £1M
CSKA left back (22) for £2M
So we get three good international attacking midfielders, a decent international goallie, a top notch international striker, and a very promising (UEFA Cup winning!) international left back, and all for £6.5M. And what's more, they have an average age of 25 years.
It still leaves £3.5M for a couple of good solid centre backs.
So that's 8 international players (1 GK, 3 defenders, 3 midfielders & a striker), all with their best years still to come, for £10M.
Oh, and add Robbie Keane on a pre-contract to pick him up on a Bosman at the end of next season to replace Bellamy when he returns to Newcastle after Souness has been given the boot.
It's not rocket science!
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Paul, I've been reading the site for some time now and have generally been impressed, although I have to say recently the tone appears to be moving toward a PR spin for the board and our "esteemed" friend Mr Desmond.
Dermot Desmond is a wealthy and successful businessman, who is a major shareholder and board member in Celtic - no more, no less. He invested primarily to make money, as did his friends Messrs McManus and Magnier at Manchester United, not through any great love for the club. He does not own Celtic Football Club, and should be reminded of that when he chooses to patronise those fans who have invested much more financially, pro-rata, and emotionally into the club than he ever has. For the official website to allow him to comment on such a manner on the Celtic support is a disgrace. Not all shareholders are allowed to speak through the club officially therefore why should he. He showed his contempt for the support previously when he left the AGM halfway through , because of a prior appointment, perhaps he should have his PA check his diary for next year should he have something else to say. I am sure should he not be sitting on a huge paper loss on his shares then he would have sold up by now.
He speaks of divisive forces at work and then feeds the tabloids this story.
Sell up Dermot, if we upset you so much, or are you waiting to make some more cash like your Coolmore Mafia friends ?
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Given that DD responded to the booing incident almost 2 months after the event, we can be sure that it was a considered and measured statement and not the reaction of someone in a petulant mood because one of his mates got booed. I totally agreed with his statement. BQ is one of the people who brought a level of credibility and business acumen to the running of the club – which had been a running joke for as long as I can remember. If I was BQ, I wouldn’t bother sticking around.
As regards the remarks that DD is not a dyed in the wool Celtic man I think is irrelevant. We are where we are because the dyed in the wool Celtic men could not run a whelk stall never mind a football club of the stature of Celtic. Not only did they lack strategic vision, they did not have any money to invest in the club and drove the club to edge of bankruptcy. As Paul has stated on numerous occasions, Celtic have spent around £40m more than they earned in the last 5 years. How many business men, regardless of how wealthy would be prepared to accept this level of ongoing loss?
DD has built on the foundations laid by Fergus and he may well cash in at some point in the future. That is life. If the club ends up in the hands of a Glazer type figure, then it will be down to us for not investing in the clubs shares and achieve the level required to collectively block any such schemes.
Tim_Bhoy
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See if I hear or read another thing about the Celtic Board,DD or who ever and its “ Aye but they waited till after the season ticket deadline “
I am going to hand back my season ticket !
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Rhinocardiff, to accuse me of spinning for the board is unworthy and only serves to take attention from the danger.
As Tim Bhoy has just said, in the last six years the club have run up a £40million loss. If he chooses he could cut our annual expenditure to £40million from now on and make tens of millions per year.
Like it or not, hate him, love him, the budget decision is in his power.
Like is or not, who he sells up to is in his gift. Glazer or one of us.
Repeat ten times:
Dermot Desmonds is the only person who can stop Celtic being owned by a small time Glazer who will clear £20million a year from Celtic.
Then read his interview again.
Then try to stop yourself saying a ‘Glory Be’.
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First, I'll repeat what I said on a previous thread: Mr Desmond is not a stupid man. There is a reason for the public nature of his comments that were always going to be portrayed as inflammatory. We'll find his reasons in due course.
Second, and with due respect Paul, I think its fanciful to think better communication with the media will alter the way Celtic are reported.
You are spot on your assertions that the raison d etre of the media is to sell advertising.
Let's take this one step further. In order to sell advertising, the media outlet, whether that be a newspaper, radio programme or TV show, has to offer the advertiser readers, listeners and viewers.
This means they will target a certain demographic and form a view/opinion/stereotype of who their audience is.
So the Daily Record, for example, will have a stereotype of the average Rangers fan (a bigoted, working class, hun)that goes along to Ibrox every other week.
Similarly, they will also have a stereotype of what THEY BELIEVE is your average Celtic fan (working class, RC, pro-republican). Lo'and behold, your average Celtic fan is everything the bigoted hun despises.
Given the average Celtic fan is a significant minority in this country, and it's their job to deliver the largest audience to the advertiser, does it pay them to pander to the bigot or the Celtic fan?? We all know the answer to that one.
In my opinion that is why Celtic will never get a fair hearing in most of the traditional media. Our country is bigoted to the core and the business models of The Record, Sun, People etc. are set up to exploit this.
Yes, without doubt, the Club must improve communication. But they need to be innovative and do so in such a way that it can bye-pass the traditional media and get to the support directly.
All the best.
GM
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First time poster - got to say there are a lot of assumptions going on from posters here. Does anyone know for sure why D Desmond bought his shares? Everyone seems to think he has no emotional attachment to the club and is just in it for the money. Is there any hard evidence to support this or have some people just 'decided' that this is how it is.
Also - I have to mention this 'pro rata' argument - Celtic is a PLC guys - its no longer irish immigrants (like my grandpa - before I get knocked for having no history) kicking a bladder around for the sake of the community - I know the history but all the emotion surrounding D.Ds salary vs fans salary and the pro rata investment they make is emotional gusts. Live in the real world - I dont pro rata get a fridge cheaper at curries or a pint cheaper in my local because I have a 'low wage' likewise guys on the bru dont get these breaks either. If you won a million squid would you buy a house and make sure your kids and folks are ok or buy celtic a player? D.Ds made his cash just because he's a director doesnt mean he should put it all into the team.
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Qmark - in case you missed it Quinn was making a presentation on behalf of the club. In being disrespectful to Quinn we were being disrespectful to the 100 or so Villareal fans who travelled from Spain.
Big Chips UK - I am now seriously depressed. If your list is the level of our ambition then god help us.
Paul 67 - No matter how hard you try (and I relly want to believe) you'll never convince me and many others that the EPL is a realistic proposition in my lifetime.
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Seems I am in a minority, but I agreed with most of what DD said. The booing of Brian Quinn by "support" ers embarrasses the club and real supporters. It reminded me of the booing of Fergus while unfurling the championship flag - some of those boo boys have in hindsight admitted their shame.
On the day of the Hearts game, the criticisms of players, manager, board and chairmen around me were loud and loutish. My son (11) was confused as to why celtic supporters were abusing their own club.
To those who say "I pay for my ticket and I'll boo if I want", you are akin to a smoker in a restaurant polluting the air for others, including children who are learning about our great club. Let's support it in every possible way.
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It also annoyed me when the fans booed BG. The fans also booed ‘The Bunnet’ when he unveiled the flag. Why? A lot of fans do not like the people in power at Parkhead. In all my time as a supporter, they have never liked the Kellys, Whites, Fergus and now it is the turn of DD/BQ.
We will only realise that this is the best board we have ever had when they are gone. This board (and MON) has bought players I never thought would come to Celtic and stay. The board has sold the Celtic family to the players (and money helps too) to make them want to come & stay.
How many players want to leave Celtic these days whereas before they came and went the following season because they had a "wee problem". Now when they stay we say they are too old, not playing well etc they should go. We are a fickle lot.
If my comments about the board are wrong then please convince me otherwise - No "You are talking rubbish please".
StevieD
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Paul, just a quickie - am I being too cynical or could Desmond have released this stamement to create an air of ambiguity about the clubs future and drive share prices down so he can accrue more shares as cheap as possible before a Glazer type compulsory offer for the remainder? he would then become the outright owner on the cheap before any proposed moves to EPL/superleagues are announced and be the sole recipient of any financial gain.
its just the timing of the announcement has made me think like this, but as i'm sure i'll be made aware by others, i know nothing of share issues and how they work, so i dont know if prices could be influenced in this way.After all, as you have convincingly detalied in the past few months, there now seems a real possibility of league restructuring, why would think of doing anything else with this on the horizon?
Brummiebhoy
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Paul,
You ARE just an apologist for a board which is not capable of running Celtic to its full potential. The team has been allowed to deteriorate from the heights of Seville to the depths of Fir Park because of criminal lack of investment. Yet the attitude of you, and others like you on this site is "they must know what they're doing -they're successful businessmen- let them get on with it and don't criticise them in case we upset them, or in case we encourage the (peceived) anti-Celtic media". Well I'm sorry but I'm a fan - not a sheep - and I know that Celtic could do better than this misereable unimaginative shower. DD buys shares -but this is an investment for HIMSELF he can sell them at any time. As far as I know he doesn't GIVE any money to the club. Neither does Brian Quinn. In fact they TAKE MONEY OUT OF CELTIC- they paid themselves a dividend this year (DD got £2M I believe). Quinn's salary of £15K a year is not a bad little earner considering he lives in Milton Keynes wher he pursues his other sources of income. So don't dare tell me we can't criticise them.
Finally, a question for all the people on this site who agree with the boards policy of making a priority of reducing the debt rather than investing in the team, despite the fact that the debt is entirely manageable and could easily be increased without endangering the club's future. Do you have a mortgage on your home? If so, why don't you cocentrate on paying it off rather than spending money on season tickets and Celtic merchandise etc.?
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Paul, I think on this one you have become a little carried away.
First off the majority of celtic income comes from the fans, a fanbase who wants more spent at present, imagine the reaction if someone starts creaming £20m a year off the top.
This is the whole problem with football as an investment, it very rarely stacks up. Take manu out the frame pre glazer and you will struggle to find any football club that presents a credible investment opportunity.
Institutional investors will not invest in such a fickle financial model as football and the football unit trusts aimed at individuals never made it past go.
The reason why it does not work is simple you have to spend vast amounts on your team, if you dont your revenue will drop accordingly and thus your investment.
At present, DD's only option if he wanted to sell his shares would be to the fans, this wont raise what he wants so we will all remain bedfellows for the forseable future.
DD will pray for the EPL and glazer success to boost the market but while we may make the EPL, I dont see glazer making it at manu.
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Thanks Frank, remembered that after I'd posted. I take it you don't disagree about his sense of timing?
Would still like to know what DD's investment to dividend ratio is though. Anyone? Anyone? Bueller?
Bottom line is he's not the owner and shouldn't be making these ridiculous statements about people who work damn hard to be able to follow their team.
qmark.
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It wasn't the booing that embarrassed me per se, but the timing of it.
Not only was it done at a match that was being attended by a load of Villarreal fans, but at the precise time that a presentation was being made to a representative of those fans!
Those fans had come all the way over from Spain to Glasgow to witness a team whose supporters had so impressed them with their friendliness and fairness, and who profess to be TGFITW. Then they arrive in grey Glasgow to witness a choris of booing when their rep walked out to receive a gift from the club.
Do we think they'll be back to visit us again?
Maybe next time the boo-boys will engage their grey matter before opening their mouths, and save it for a match that doesn't have the same significance. They can turn up at every other match and wave anti-management banners or chant "Quinn oot" until they go hoarse. Just try not to embarrass our club so much next time.
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In an ideal world, the major shareholder in Celtic would be a quiet, mild mannered, life long fan, who would throw millions into the club to buy players as required.
But we don't live in an ideal world. Like a lot of successfgul businessmen (Bill Gates, and Alan Sugar for example), DD is used to getting things all is own way. Riding roughshod over people is second nature to these eccentrics.
Have you ever noticed, when a business is doing well, the top money men take a LOT of dosh as their reward. If things don't go well, there is recrimination much further down the food chain. Those at the top are apparently NEVER to blame. DD's comments should be treated witht he comtempt they deserve. They are typical of the sort of person these guys are.
This is merely a powerful man spouting forth, because he can, and using a forum (wether rightly, or wrongly) as a tool to do so.
We as mere fans don't know all the idiosyncrasies of business. but we shouldn't have to? Like any supporters, we want to see success on the pitch. Plain and simple. The board, and DD in particular, are well aware of this.
It has been stated many times (quite rightly)on this site, that the board were short sighted after Seville. They didn't add impetus, or funding, to the building of the team. So DD, consider this. We got near the top 2 years ago. Today, the club is worth as a going concern some £40 million. There are rumours today that Steven Gerrard might be on the move to Chelsea, or Real for £50 Million. In other words, the cost of building the team now is much, much, more than just 2 years ago. At least building it to be a top European outfit. I would suggest that you, and the other board members got this so wrong. You might like to rememeber this the next time you want to have a go at the fans.
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Since time began fans of all football clubs have always been suspicious of the suits who make the decisions at their clubs. The only exceptions to this are the clubs who spend silly money they don't have. This will never change & to be honest i'm bored rigid with this obsession at our club. The way i see it is they are trying to run the club to the best of their ability without freefalling us into crippling debt - see Leeds & Boruusia Dortmund for details.
If we existed in the Premiership then fair enough - these people like DD would be rightly scrutinised because we would then have the riches to invest & the suits would have no excuses in a financially rewarding league.
Currently ourselves & Rangers are strenghtening our squads for next season. However - One side is getting persistant coverage in the tabloids about the exact amount of money they will spend - the other side gets coverage if they are linked with a player or announcing future plans for a pie in the sky Casino. This bias in coverage is instrumental in influencing the weak minded of our support who take the bait from the Scottish Tabloids & it spreads from there.
One thing we're all agreed on though is that the communication from the club is dire. We desperately need a strong PR person at the club who can tackle scenarios head on & put things across in an articulate fashion & in a way that is idiot proof.
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Paul
Time for a vote on the site, I think.
Do you think Paul is an apologist for the board. If you do, choose "Boooo".
Or
Do you think Paul does his best to present a reasoned and constructively critical perspective on the board's activities. If you do, please click here " " and we'll send you an applicaton form for a club credit card.
Sorry bhoys and ghirls, but this board has just provided us with the best five years a generation or two or three of the Celtic support have ever had. Yes, it could have been better. But it could have been (a lot) worse.
We'll know when it's time to turn against the board. But it's not now, and for my money it won't be this board.
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I think Milkray makes a good point - the potential for a negative reaction to a takeover is probably greater in glasgow than in manchester. As celtic's income is heavily weighted towards fan spending then there is a power there to hit the bottom line if someone decided to run the club for profit.
The obvious caveat here would be that everyone would lose out in this scenario - the investor, the club and the fans. A watered down team for a watered down club with a watered down support.
Paul, do you fell a potential selling of shares by DD would be seen as a failure of the 'master plan'? I read with interest previous comment about him holding off buying more shares at the low prices of recent years as it would have looked as if he had got one over on the other guys who got on board a few years ago at his request/advice.
I did find the article strange as there appears to be no upside - certainly didn't appear to be designed to buy GS time with the transition.
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Hi all,
First time poster long time reader, love the site.
I have just read the atricle on the official site and felt that it was slightly inflamatory. Now if that is my impression of the article being edited and distributed by a Celtic source how would it read if it were to be distributed by one of the tabloids.
I was not among those booing when Quinn came onto the pitch against Hearts (I was away having a smoke.) But I would still defend the right of those supporters to make their feelings known. For desmond to come out and say;
"we on the board have never been given the slightest recognition for getting Martin and helping him build the team that has been so successful over the past years."
This statement is incredibly strange. If DD is just in it for the money why would he care what the fans think of him and the other board members? If on the otherhand he does have in emotional investment in the club how does he imagine these comments will help? Sadly I feel that this is DD shooting himself in the foot, another pratfall in the Celtic PR circus.
A number of posters have mentioned the move to the EPL. I think that this is somewhat of a smokescreen. When we use the argument of T.V revenues and contract re-negotiations will demand Celtic entry into the EPL, we forget that at present other European teams have higher global coverage than Celtic. Now I believe that given Celtic's history we could be bigger globaly than most European clubs, however we are not at that stage yet. I feel that we should be looking at the bigger long term picture which should be within a structured European league. I felt that the Atlantic league that was muted a couple of years ago would have been a perfect staging platform for Celtic to capitalise on there global potential.
Sorry for the essay but I had a lot to get off my chest.
Ryn
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chennaiseabird,
Obviously your aspirations for Celtic are as low as those of the Board.
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I perhaps may be playing with live ammo here but I don't think you can pin the blame of lack of investment in the team since Seville primarily at the door of the board.
I think Paul has done a good job here explaining the merits of the five year transfer cash up front strategy which worked well for MoN up to seville. However, the biggest failure was the lack of turnover of players during the whole 5 year period - especially the second half.
Sellable assets such as Hartson, Larsson, Mjallby, Sutton, Thompson, Agathe and so on have all been kept at teh club for as long as possible when perhaps a trading of these players for cash would have allowed MoN to bring in fresh legs instead of letting those legs creak over the age of 30.
The lack of funds generated through player sales was the key factor in there being no large investment in new players post seville. MoN chose to reward his senior players with good contracts that were perhaps too large to justify in terms of what they delivered after seville.
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Paul - on another subject i think we will be 8 players lighter than this time last year with the following players gone/likely to go:
Paul Lambert
Henri Camara
Juninho
Rab Douglas
Momo Sylla
Ulrik Laursen
David Fernandez
Joos Valgaeren
I've estimated that this would be an anuual salary saving of around £6.7 million. Am i close with this figure?
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Ok I want to clear up a few points, maybe some wrongs on my part.
Some love DD some don't fair enough but the ones who go on about he's invested his money in Celtic What money, did his money not go to Fergus McCann in exchange for his shares?
How much of DD's investment actually went into the club bank account to help out with th running of the club?
I know that's were my money and your money goes year in year out, money that comes right out of your bank account.
Paul Celtic have run up 40 million loss over the last fews years, I always thought that was the banks money and not out of DD's pocket?
Share issue's how big a success would they have been without us the fans?
How much has DD actually put into the club, and how much has he taken out?
He wants to criticise us then he has to be prepared to take some question backs, after all without us there would be no Celtic Football Club.
The chance that someone can take us over simply to make huge profits is always going to be there unless one of us comes into 100's of million ( please be me ) welcome to the modern football world.
My opinion is that any investor is entiltled to make a profit, after all thats the reason behind investing, but to treat the paying customer with such contempt was shocking, continue in this manner and the 70million turn over will slowly drop.
If Quinn and Desmond have such business acume, surely they can see that all this would never have came about if we had any sort of PR.
Love when this site talk about football, talking about finances always goes in murky waters.
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Chennaiseabird: Hi there. I think your vote is just a tad over simplistic. For what it's worth. I don't think Paul is a apologist for the board. I don't agree with everything he says, but that's what helps to make the world an interesting place. My concern with the board is that they initially got in a manager who was superb at bringing out the best in players - although arguably was too loyal to some that were past their sell by date. However, Seville should have been the launch pad to either maintain, or improve the squad. They did neither, and the slip is all too obvious. We have just lost the title to the poorest Rangers team in years.
I don't believe we should go massively into debt like Leeds, or Borussia, but some investment was required after Seville. Because of that shortsightedness, that investment will be many more times what it might have been. To say the board is doing the best they can is someway short of the reality of the situation. The board have slipped up, and slipped up badly.
We are now in a position that the ony realistic way to get extra dosh is for a team of not quite top drawer players to somehow have a good run in Europe.
I'm sorry if this sounds all doom and gloom, but if anyone can point to some positive light at the end of the tunnel, then let me know.
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Forgive me for appearing to be an apologist but can anyone explain just what exactly has the board done wrong? Are you saying that they should have sanctioned us going further into debt? If the rumoured share issue in the Summer comes to fruition then I presume that most of the shares will be purchased by DD. Is this not him investing his own money in the club? In fact this is the ONLY way that DD can legally invest money in the club as we are a plc and he cannot just gift the money. IF he gains full control of the club, that is another matter.
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Ok Paul, to accuse you of "spinning" for the board is perhaps unfair but I would still have to disagree with you on your views on Dermot Desmond. How many of us had heard of him or Fergus McCann before him before they heavily invested in Celtic ? Are there other investors out there, a la Abramovich, who would invest in Celtic ? Perhaps there are, none of us are really qualified to know. So to say only Desmond can save us is perhaps not entirely accurate.
Incidentally I don't wholly disagree with Desmond, it is wrong to boo one of our own. Our players, our manager and, yes, even our board deserve our support, particularly when the club were entertaining guests from abroad. Nevertheless it was somewhat naive of Mr Quinn to expect to be cheered to the rafters.
My point, perhaps not put very well, was that Dermot Desmond should not be using the official club site to criticise Celtic fans. He has had the opportunity to answer questions from some of those same fans and fellow shareholders at recent AGMs, yet has not deigned these to be important enough to sit all the way through or even attend at all. If he is so important to the club, as to be permitted to talk via the club website then surely it is also important that he fully attends the AGM.
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Correct me if I'm wrong....but didn't Fergus when he left say that the club's shareholdings would be structured such that th club could never be in the hands of a single dynasty ever again.
I'm sure DD's shares only amount to around 23/30%, so who would want to buy him out knowing they wouldn't have control over how the club was being run.
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At 1:17 PM, Bigchipsuk
Tommy Miller is, I believe, available on a Bosman.
Have we ever signed a Bosman??
In Saturday's paper it said Miller would be signing within 48hrs, but have seen nothing since - anybody any news?
Hopefully WGS will be back from his holiday in Spain soon & the new arrivals will start coming through the door.
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The proposed share offer will now make very interesting reading. If, as many claim, DD has given these remarks due consideration.
He points out the fans should put there money in but we here rumours of a closed convertible pref share placement. The effect of which will be to guarantee DD a return of his choosing but enable an inrease in voting rights should he require it.
Perhaps the implications of this statement give clues to future strategy or perhaps DD just got out the wrong side of the bed.
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Great No 8, DD will not sell until he knows the outcome of the master plan.
There is no great upside to this, sorry.
Cambuslang, your figures are v close to my estimate.
Anon 14.26, what a good memory.
Fergus did design his exit to allow fans an advantage, he also included a large donation to the club if they took up his shares. Unfortunately the take up from small investors was very poor. Most of his shares went to DD.
DD have effective control at the moment and will have actual control in 2007 when his convertible shares convert.
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When DD appeared on the scene, plenty of ex celtic players, some in the media, and some not, came out and said that they had never heard of him. Not one person said yes he was a well known fan who was at most matches.
The 'big shots' at clubs always get to mix with the players, so why had no one heard of DD?
He is in it for the glory, to be able to say to his fellow money men, "look at me, i am in charge of Celtic".
Sadly though, and it breaks my heart to say it, he is probably the best we can hope for. Hands up if you want a Malcolm Glazer mk2?
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VCixi. It's fairly straightforward. Celtic are completely alone in the world's top teams in that they rely on the fans coming through the turnstiles, more than anyone else. we do not have the luxury of a massive TV deal.
We had the basis of a really good squad 2 years ago. In order to maintain/improve your squad you can go the way of Leeds or Borussia, as mentioned earlier - spend money like confetti. This is the road to oblivion.
Or, the board could have invested a reasonable amount on the squad to possibly ensure continued good runs in Europe, and continued income - there are no guarentees in this world though.
If you do absolutely zilch, as the board have done, you end up with an aging squad, on long term contracts that are expensive to deal with. that's exactly where Celtic are now. The young players in the squad are good, but there's no Henrik Larssons waiting in the wings. The board is guilty of sitting on it's hands. As a result Celtic's debts are maybe bigger than they need to be, and the team isn't playing as well as it should.
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You will find it's the Celtic supporters that have put much of the money in over the last 5 years not the board.
How much has the turn over been in the last 5 years added together for those 5 years?
Can anyone tell me?
Whatever the figure,thats what has been put in mostly by fans.
After the fans have put their wonga in for shirts,tickets,(away fans pay too)etc., add in the sponsorship of shirts,advertising around the stadium,sponsorship of player cars,Celtic TV money,Setanta money,internet money,corporate sponsors,Celtic foodstuff,Museum,Celtic View(isn't it one of the biggest in UK?must be making a few quid)Celtic this that and the next thing.It all adds up,big or small
Paul or anyone,can you tell me exactly what the break down of other monies are brought into Celtic by the Board?
As you have pointed out yourself Paul,we should be doing more externally for funds for the team.
Even us poor souls on CQN have come up with some fantastic ideas recently on here,(granted a few were roasters as well)to make some extra cash.
If DD and JP McManus can spend 350 million on a golf course in the Carribean!
Before they had realised,if they build 100 luxury houses on the grounds at 3.5 million a pop,they have made their money back pronto style with a luxury golf course thrown in for free and some new neighbours.
How about they "speculate" (there's that word again)
Build some cheap accommadation beside the park for say around 500 basic rooms,nothing fancy.There's some of your travelling support from N.Ireland got a room for the night(money going to Celtic,ie players wages)instead the money goes to some as equally cheap backpackers in the city centre or more expensive hotel.
Go on speculate.
Soon there will be easy access with the new M74 right outside our doorstep.Every supporters bus travelling from the south is right on the door step son enough.
Build a pub for the masses,not just that terrible one that was called a pub in the stadium.
If drink is good enough for us in the heated seat section,it's good enough for everyone.
Sort that superstore out too,bigger doors,my daughter never knew it was there for 2 seasons and walked past it everytime without seeing it(thank god)
potential of 50,000 fans in customers in one day,yet only a handful of staff in there working.
It's not the first time I've walked out 'cos I couldn't get served.
It's not the first time either i couldn't even get in due to bad location of doors.
Get the drift?
Only took me 5 min. to work that out after reading this blog.
No money for the team,no money for the training ground,yet they want a new board room for 3.5 million!
Speculate,just like you do with EVERY other business you buy into.
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I'm certain that Paul is NOT an apologist for the board but even if he was it wouldn't bother me in the slightest, we are all big boys and girls and can make up our own minds which way we want to go, can't we? And most of us can do it without the need to be abusive to those who have an opinion that's different from our own, for those who can't - get well soon. My own take on is that since MON took over the players wages have rocketed up and as a result we had hardly any money left for new players. The money we did have was blown on the likes of Junihno, Camera, Henchoz etc. Was that the boards fault? Hopefully WGS will be able to get things back on track in terms of sorting out a wage structure that we can sustain over a long period and still sign new players when we need them
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Bhoyinengland. My point is that they can't spend money that isn't there. I will echo what Paul has said many times, we are spending more money than we earn. DD, Quinn et al even if they had the desire to can't just throw money at the club as it is not permitted. The only way of doing this is by issuing more shares which if the rumours are true is what they are planning on doing in the Summer. The only thing that they could be accused of is not speculating to accumulate as is highlighted by Anon 3.30pm, this incidentally would also require a share issue or getting further into debt in order to finance it. In the current climate do you really want to see Celtic going down the same road as Rangers did during the DA years?
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No offence to the refuseniks (before he proceeds to offend them). Talking through your bum about business because you don't comprehend it takes up valuable space on this discussion board.
Before you post regarding this, please try and take a bit of time to understand what shares are and what ownership implies- and the difference between being a shareholder (ownership) and putting money into the club buying a season ticket (cash purchase of a product). When you buy a season ticket you are buying a product- not the right to say how things are run.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shares
Who cares apart from you about how much money pro rata you give to the club and why that should buy influence? Yes, we all want to see more income but we dont want to hear you going on about it. You dont expect to go into Curry's and tell them how you think the fridge display should look just because you bought a cooker and a Dyson there two weeks before, you can express displeasure by not buying there but thats about it. You are a consumer of products in which you deem that you are getting a fair trade for the goods you receive in return otherwise you woldn't buy them.
The problem is in people conflating support for a business with their emotions. Paul is quite right to look at things in the cold light of day and delineate the realities of our current situation.
If you want to make a difference to how Celtic is run in the long term as opposed to who we get on the pitch next season then buy shares instead of that flash new Nike strip. If you buy the strip after thinking about this then dont expect the club to look at you as anything other than a willing consumer.
I love Celtic and that's why I intend to buy more shares. It is my small way of getting a little bit of control- I hope other people do the same.
ChiefChirpa
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WeeTam: Agree that MON did up the wage bill considerably. It would be fair to say that MON was a great football man, if not a good businessman. But the board are the final arbitors to any contracts. If the football team is not performing, it is right and fair to blame the manager/players. However, if you don't invest in the squad, then this is not down to just the manager. True, Juninho, Camara, and Henchoz were less than ideal - and that's being kind to them. However, the board agreed to them being signed on the wages they were on.
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BhoyinEngland. So you are admitting that the board have allowed investment in the team. Your criticism is that they allowed MON to spend the money unwisely. Hypothetical scenario: If MOn wanted to buy a player and the money was available but the board refused to sanction it because they thought he wasn't good enough. Who would your criticism be aimed at then? The bottom line is that MON was employed to make the footballing decisions, the board were paid to make the financial decisions. How can the board be criticised for the managers (or players) failings.
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I'm sorry, but I don't see how you can criticize the board for allowing MON to sign the players (ie duds) that he has signed over the last few years. If you actually look at the money MON has spent on wages and transfers in the last three years, you will see that we have wasted a lot of money. The problem after Seville was that MON extended contracts of his "big players", pushing the wage bill higher. These are players who are getting on in years (even at that time), and have little or no residual value. If the board had vetoed these contract extensions, these same supporters would have been up in arms complaining that 1)money was not being spent to keep the team intact and 2)the board were interfering in football matters that should be the manager's decision at any rate. At the end of the day, as was said before, you cannot spend what you do not have, and we simply did not have the money over the last few seasons. Hopefully that will change this summer, but we will wait and see.
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Vcixi: Of course we can't spend money we don't have, but when players are being signed up for 2 years without playing - Paul Lambert for example, then the board should have already been asking questions. They weren't. MON went to them with contracts for aging players. the board should have been looking at the writing on the walls. Old players sitting on the bench getting £1.5 a year, or getting new blood in the squad that would cost less in wages. This isn't rocket science.
Ultimately MON was paid to get Celtic back into winning ways. He left the club in a much healthier state than when he started. The board on the other hand is paid to ensure the financial well being of the club. So far, it would be fair to say, that the jury is still out. There have been a a number of suggestions made on this web site about helping the finances. Some superb, some dire. The board know full well the reality of the situation. We aren't in the EPL, so no big TV deal. approximately 60,000 every home game. Merchandising that needs improving. They should start from there and start to show some initiative. So far, the biscuit tin mentality is returning with avengance.
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reading earlier posts I note reference to the manu supporters trust.
Look at what nice things they have to say about DD, they go on to refer to our good selves as RATS, lets hope mad malky puts them out of business!!
http://www.suforum.org/newforum/showthread.php?t=17072
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The closest current comparison to the Lambert case would be Jackie, so for arguments sake if WGS decides to give Jackie a new 2 or 3 year deal and the board knock it back, who do you side with? If there is anyone to be criticised for the Lambert situation it is MON as it is him that made the recommendations on who to keep/lose. If the board are guilty of anything it is having too much faith in MON. The level of criticism they would have received in the Press and from MON and from the majority of us it has to be said if they were seen to be obstructing transfer and re-signing decisions would be tenfold to what it is now believe me.
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that SU Forums made my day! so glad we can get on their nerves like this, wonder how many of the will be wearing chelsea shirts in a few season
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From the shareholders united page.......
"Has anyone noticed that wherever you are you are never seemingly more than a metre away from someone in a green and white shirt?"
This from a supporter of "the biggest club in the world"
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Vcix: Mmmmmmm. I suppose that's why Mr Lennon hasn't been signed up then. Maybe the board finally got off it's backside and decided that this was getting too expensive. However, you talk about criticism. Can Celtic get anymore critisim than they already do off the Hacks in Scotland?
On top of this MON was well known for being too loyal to older players when he was at Leicester. If the Celtic board didn't know that before they signed him, then just who is to blame for that? John Barnes perhaps!!
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Hi Paul,
It seems to me that this time you are verging on scaremongering. Although my analysis is going to raise more questions than answers.
Why has DD chosen the aftermath of O'Neill leaving to discuss this. Why not when we were chasing the SPL.
Why on the one hand has there been a commitment to underwrite a further share issue and then state a displeasure of irked fans will lead to further investemnt drying up.
When was DD commitment made to the issue? pre or post BQ boo fest?
I still cant see the logical link here until these questions are laid bare.
It smacks of desperation on DD's part. Unloading that at a time when we are beginning to regain a sense of confidence as Celtic fans. This has also been driven in part Paul by your analysis over the last ten months that something big is developing.
Im none the wiser and a whole load more confused
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