 Thursday, June 02, 2005
Premiership plans for America, Asia, Celtic, Rangers and how Glazer will deliver
Well my friends in Celtic, we are passing through the looking glass. Football is about to undergo its most significant change since the arrival of European competition in 1955. And it is all down to a very determined American.
In buying Manchester United Malcolm Glazer has opened a whole new world of opportunities for football on this island. I will explain the financial background to this deal before I discuss the wider consequences for football.
Glazer has offered £790million for the club, some £540million of which is borrowed money. The deal looked in jeopardy for some time as traditional lenders were reluctant to support it.
£275million of the borrowings are ‘pay in kind’ (PIK) loans from three different hedge funds, Perry Capital, Citadel and Och-Ziff.
PIKs do not require the borrower to pay interest during the term of the loan in the normal way; instead all interest is repayable at the end of the loan along with the capital amount. They are considered a high risk for investors (lenders) and attract a high interest rate.
I understand Glazer is paying 17% interest on his PIKs. This portion of the debt will double in value if not repaid within 5 years.
Not only is Glazer paying ‘top dollar’ on his borrowings, the total amount paid for the club of £790million is exceptionally high given the current trading environment.
To service his debt and make an adequate return on his investment he will have to clear over £80million per annum. This is a tall order for a club which has only made more than £15million pre-tax profit twice in its history and whose turnover was £169million last year.
No wonder the Manchester United fans are concerned. Either Glazer will succeed in changing the financial structure of football beyond recognition, or their club is saddled with a potentially terminal amount of debt to service.
If Glazer fails, a Leeds United style meltdown in not only likely, it is inevitable. Fortunately for Manchester United fans and Celtic, Glazer is not playing roulette; he has a well prepared business strategy including crucially the necessary support from third parties to succeed.
Glazer needs to secure his own TV rights as the very first step towards repaying his borrowings, never mind providing a profitable return.
This puts him on a collision course with the FA Premiership. Last month Premiership chief executive Peter Scudamore said: “'The Premier League is blessed with a very conservative constitution. Fourteen clubs out of 20 need to vote to do anything.
“It is almost impossible….for a small group of clubs to come along and achieve an alteration to what has been a very successful formula, both in terms of the way we do the TV deals and also the way we distribute the money.
“Many have tried, but to get to 14 out of 20 is an amazing thing”. The big worry for the Premiership is that they cannot see what Glazers next move will be.
The most powerful club in England now needs enormous change to survive. This change would also benefit Chelsea, Liverpool, Arsenal, Newcastle United and Celtic, each of whom has ambitious investors to satisfy.
These clubs are correct to suggest that the Premiership (and SPL in the case of Celtic) in its current form is inhibiting their commercial and football progress. Their directors have a duty to their shareholders to optimise their operating environment.
There is as much value in the English clubs playing Wigan Athletic, Fulham or Portsmouth as there is Celtic playing Livingston, even if they get to keep their broadcast revenue. If the major British clubs want to maximise their revenues they needs to play teams capable to selling TV rights and advertising, and only such teams.
In 2006 these clubs will publicly take steps towards establishing a truly super-league for the major clubs on this island. Nothing will be said on the matter until then.
Changes to the FA Premiership will be proposed beyond simply inviting Celtic and Rangers to join, this will happen as a mere consequence of the other planned changes.
This proposal will set entry requirements, such as club stadiums requiring Uefa Four Star status, though this is likely to move to Five Star status within a short period (50,000 seats, enormous media facilities and a large international airport nearby).
Such criteria will ensure that each game is contested by major clubs playing in front of large crowds in world class stadiums. It will limit the chances of plucky teams like Bolton Wanderers, who might manage to punch above their weight every now and again.
Clubs such as Rangers, Everton, Tottenham, Manchester City, Aston Villa and Middlesbrough will all back the plan, as it would guarantee them a place at the top table.
The league will be smaller than its current size, ideally with only 30 games, which will leave time during pre-season and January to evangelise the North American and Asian markets, each of which will have a lucrative competition.
The Premiership clubs who lose out will have a choice of voting the change through and accepting a parachute payment which will keep them in business, or facing a breakaway league without the parachute payment and a financial black hole.
This new league would tower over all other leagues in financial terms, including the Champions League. The majority of clubs should earn more than any other club outside this league, a fact which it is hoped, would see the British clubs dominate European competition.
Clubs in Milan, Turin, Barcelona and Madrid would become islands outside the big league in a similar way Celtic is at the moment and would find it difficult to attract and retain top players.
It is important for Celtic to be part of this and not be left outside. It would make us one of the richest clubs in the world at a stroke, and would mean that we could compete successfully with the likes of Barcelona for players such as Ronaldinho. A position we have never enjoyed before.
It will be good for Glasgow and good for Scotland to have what should become two worldwide sporting brands in the city.
I can hear the gnashing of teeth already. I am not going to argue that this is good for football, as the game means many different things to many different people.
At one time Queens Park and Corinthians dominated football in Scotland and England. Those clubs remained true to their sporting principles; the rest became professional businesses a long time ago.
Football is not being well served on this island by the current leagues. Two European Cup finalists in twenty years is equal to the achievement of Romania, and finishes well behind Germany, Spain and Italy.
For an island so blessed with great stadiums packed with fans paying top price to see their football, performance could hardly get worse.
Whether this fills you full of anticipation or dread, know that Malcolm Glazer will repay his loans when due, and know that football will never quite be the same again.
I’m off to write my business plan.
© Celtic Quick News, use freely if you refer to www.celticquicknews.co.uk
252 Comments:
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I knew that would happen!
Was writing a post on the previous topic knowing full well that your BIG one would be posted at the same time. Ha ha.
Here it is again>>>>>>
I admire you Paul for all the stick you are taking in your own "house" from cyberhuns. The admiration comes from the fact that you leave the majority of the inane postings on here for all to see. Kudos to you.
The problem as I see it, is that there are too many decent bloggers on here taking on the role of "moderator", in defending the personal attacks directed at yourself. This is commendable, but the only tool/weapon they have as "moderator" is "right of reply", which only fuels these fools' purpose.
The simple way to deal with these cyberhuns is to IGNORE THEIR POSTS, or give a few trusted bloggers who have the time to spare some admin rights.
I also agree that this site is becoming difficult to keep up with. Kudos again to you for keeping the masses entertained and informed.
I would hate to see the original format of this site changed dramatically, but the fact is you are going to have to make some dramatic changes here to keep it working as successfuly as it has this past year.
Good luck and best wishes on that front.
PS If anybody is looking for a good messageboard that is frequented and administered by Celts like yourselves, look no further than http://kerrydalestreet.co.uk
This board was created by a guy called Fitzpas with help from other users, when the old E-Tims messageboard was pulled last summer. Can you believe those guys at E-Tims pulled the plug on the messageboard in the last week of the transfer window!! That was just sick E-Tims.
dialupcelt.
PPS Away to read the BIG STORY now.
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Paul,
Just left Play misty for me for 5 minutes to read your article, and I certainly wasn't disappointed.
Well worth the wait.
Barry Woodlock
Motherwell
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I've always wondered what if the top 6 just said "no". I'm going to sleep on this. So much to think / dream about.
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Wish it could happen so quick. but look at the NHL big changes dont happen that fast. fingers crossed though.
Marc breen
Motherwell
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Well researched article Paul.
If this sort of league was to come about, and lets face it, there will be major changes in European Football within 3 years, I wonder how it would effect the rest of football.
I know that we need to be selfish in these circumstances, but how does everyone seeing European Football and the current domestic game evolving in the future?
T.O.T.
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What about UEFA?
I strongly suspected that your story would really put the boot into them and their current powers.
FIFA would be oblivious to such change, as their main jurisdiction is unaffected by all this.
I think what I am trying to say is that I thought Glazer and "others" would have had bigger plans than just "this island".
Bayern, Juventus, Inter, AC, Barca and Real are the bedfellows that I would have thought Glazer would be wanting to pillow talk TV money with.
Let's face it, UEFA are the middle man who have been making money for old rope in recent times on the back of the aforementioned successful clubs.
Another thought is - what do G-14 have to say about all of this, as surely they will be Glazers biggest allies in this revolution?
dialupcelt
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Well sign me up.
This is a once in a lifetime opportunity to reach the level we deserve to be at.
I hope this happens.
It would also have a ripple effect on the continent and you might see a similar thing with certain Spanish and Italian clubs.
Maybe the French and Germans would follow suit.
Anyway you cut it, The face of football is going to change in the next few years.
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How sneaky of you to post yer "Big One" when the civilized world is watching the end of the Desperate Housewives series. Shame on you!
Anyways, interesting stuff, Paul. However, I feel you may have failed to factor in vested interests, political pressure and petty jealousies. The English clubs will be loathe to change their whole structure just to bail out a charmless Yank who has taken the world's most financially-successful club to the brink of bankruptcy. Some may be happy to see him fail big-style.
Also, most of the English clubs will form a self-protective huddle to keep out interlopers from elsewhere, such as us and them. Then there are the MPs who will kick up a stink if their local club looks like being left in the lurch.
Your theory rests on Glazer not being stupid enough to risk hundreds of millions of pounds unless he was sure he could succeed. But this is a market he has no experience in. What happens if he does go belly-up?
In summation, Paul, I sincerely hope you're right but I reckon the road to the promised land may be barred with many more obstacles than you have imagined.
More optimistically, a post on the earlier blog quotes Arsenal chairman David Dein playing down the chances of major change in individual TV rights, but then he adds that it may all change if a club takes the football authorities to court. He doesn't reckon it will happen in the immediate future. But surely he must know Glazer is planning this. And if he succeeds? As they say, then it's a whole different ball game.
Keep 'em coming, Paul. As for nuisance posts, perhaps a switch to an easier format to "police" would help. No doubt you'd find plenty of "sheriffs" to help you! Until then, let's all just ignore them and move on.
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Hello paul ,fellow celts. Paul ignore the idiot .....Agree with you on the tv situation here. people want to watch big name teams look at the teams that tour here celtic, manu ac milan chelsea. Glazer knows what will sell over here......is 2007 still the year, that change could take place. still see chance of european football league,thanks for the work you put in here.
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excellent article Paul - well done
I guess money does talk after all.
When you talk of this parachute payment, in the order of magnitude do you think this would be?
I can see all sorts of legal wrangles from this. Surely these would have an effect on the start date of the new proposed 'Super League'.
I also cannot see UEFA backing a competitive format that undermines the prestigious Champions League.
Would there be relegation/promotion from this league as teams may be inelegible if they do not meet the specific requirements, a la Falkirk some years ago.
Im very uneasy about the whole change, as im not the most fervent capitalist.
If its for the good of Celtic however, then im all for it , and i agree , we as a club do need to increase revenue streams.
Will Strachan be leading us into this next phase in the history of Celtic Football Club i wonder...
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Paul, sorry for so many questions:
1)reading between the lines, are you saying that Glazer already has in place agreements with your David Deins, Peter Kenyons and Dermot Desmonds? If so, is it not illegal to withold this information from the stock exchange (i know nothing about finances-im only a daft student-but this fact was repeated often before WGS arrival as manager)?
2)Isn't there an argument for saying that Chelsea and Arsenal have more to gain by not backing Man U, so that when they go tits up (which as you've detailed clearly, would be a CERTAINTY), Chelsea and Arsenal (and maybe liverpool) can carve up the league rights as they wish, along with taking a huge proportion of the 'floating' man u fans?
3)what do you think is to be the structure of this 'superleague', will it involve promotion to and relegation from it via the leftovers of the SPL and EPL?
4)Also, why did Glazer aim exclusively for Man U, when he could have got a comparable worldwide brand and possibly acheived the same ends with Celtic or Arsenal - it was only 2 years ago chelsea needed a sugar daddy?
on a slightly different note, am i the only one that views, not just this proposed move, but the whole 'chase the big bucks, join the EPL' bandwagon as the very antithesis of our socialist, egalitarian principles? i always hoped we'd see a return to the '67 days of homegrown bhoys conquering europe and our charity based origins. i find it a little disturbing that our beloved hoops play in the relative squalor of glasgows eastend when a tiny fraction of the finances we are talking about could make massive differences to the social/economic status of a huge proportion of people.
or am i just being a hippy dreamer? if so i apologise.
Brummiebhoy
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"Im very uneasy about the whole change, as im not the most fervent capitalist" - thats what i meant to say, except mine came out a bit more hippy and ebarrassing...
Brummiebhoy
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Interesting story, but...
sources, please?
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Well, as we discussed weeks ago, the key will be the teams not wanting (can't afford to) be left out.
The '2nd tier' would never put themselves into a position that they were finacially vulnerable to being left out.
So many clubs in the EPL, for example, although are earning vast amounts (compared to SPL) from TV, they are spending it just as fast. Hence the reason relegation can spell disaster.
ITV Digital was a rude awakening for English football as a whole and any protection will be grabbed.
Well done Paul, along the lines that we have been discussing for a while.
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Paul,
Do you see the remaining teams in Scotland playing in their own league or do you see them being thrown into the mix with the other "Sneeches without stars upon thars" in England?
Hail Hail!
Honeybhoy
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We will have to wait and see.
Sounds good in an idillic world, but there are a lot of obstacles in between Glazier and his pot of gold at the end of the rainbow.
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I've just forwarded this to all the bhoys on day shift. An enjoyable and informative email to read through before reading the usual work related load first thing.
Keep them coming Paul.
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Hello Paul, An NBA game is 48 minutes long and a live TV game takes two and a half hours. An NFL game is 60 minutes and takes an incredible 3 hours to watch on TV. Point being that Americans have to watch 2 minutes of commercials for every minute of action. American sports are chopped up, that's why soccer is of little interst to media giants like ABC, CBS, NBC. This means it would have to be pay-per-view. Ruport Murdoch is trying to drum up interest in the English League on Fox Sports with his Premiership pay channel - lukewarm interest is being kind. The US is totally saturated with sports,including college basketball and gridiron and I feel a revamped league with the biggest team in Britain, Celtic, would help any billionaire, it won't bring us the millions we are seeking. What Celtic need is Europe - to be playing in two leagues, a 10 team SPL with one home and a away, and the same in a European League - with play offs of course! Murdoch has an empire and it is far from falling, Glazer has a overdraft. Sincerely and best wishes.
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Paul, what about the impact on competing in Europe? As in, couldn't Celtic be forgoing there Champions League spot?
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A pedant speaks:
Just to pick you up on the historical point: QPFC dominated world football in the 19th Century with the 'Scotch Professor' passing and running game. This is the games the world plays and England claims it invented.
The Corinthians were founded by Pa Jackson for two reasons: i) to combat Scottish dominance of football by copying the passing and running game ii) to combat the rise of professionalism by creating a team which trained the elite of the amateur elite who could be put into the England team.
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Eugene - I think what Paul is saying is that, initially at least, the game will cover it's traditional base of Europe, with glamour close -season games going out to the US and Asia. When (if?) sufficient interest is obtained (2, 4, 8 years later?) these markets will then be exploited.
If anyone is in any doubt that FIFA won't be interested in this scenario, have a read of the book "How They Stole The Game" by David Yallop. FIFA (and UEFA) presidents slept a little uneasily the day that book was published.
Keep up the good work, Mr 67.
Georgiebhoy
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Great news When do we tell the SPL,We have to give 2 years notice to quit don't we.
We will need to upgrade the stadium a bit to get 5* status especially the disabled section.
Keep us posted Paul, I will have to start saving for the increase to 3 season books when this happens.
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Paul - I may have been a little sceptical in the past with your articles, but I have to say this is one very good read.
You have obviously researched this in depth and then with a few not-too-implausible assumptions, you have made decent stab at outlining the strategy of Celtic, but football as we know it.
Good effort.
I have only read it once - I intend to digest it during the day and may well have some questions.
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If only it was so easy. Note yesterday the timetable slipped back 'to 2008 at the latest'.
I'm afraid it's not going to happen in the same way that'big signings are unlikely this close season. Yes we will sign players but they will be of the Hartley, Riordan level rather than the marquee players we crave.
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Paul,
Why will there be nothing happening in public until 2006? Surely Celtic would have to give notice as another poster mentioned above, i think 2 years is needed?
How much of the story has been verified and how much is educated guesswork?
I sincerly hope that it is correct. It would be a great move for Celtic.
The David Dein comments on the previous post really do suggest that he is oblivious to these plans, although i agree with you about the urgency that Glazer has to show in order to reduce interest payments on his loan and also clear the debt as quickly as possible.
If it had to go through European courts to make it happen, any idea ow long that would take?
Tony, Latvia
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Millionaires like Dermot Desmond (bought London City Airport for 25mil now worth 250mil) don't invest in football clubs just for the craic. DD is here to make money from Celtic.
Glazer, Jordan, Magnier, McManus all know what they are doing!
These things will come to pass, it makes me laugh when the media say 'it will never happen'.
As for 'grandstand' signings - what exactly is that? Berkovic et al???? Look at Real Madrid? Barca's best buys last season were the squad players like belleti from villareal.
The future is bright!
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Bit unsure about this. As much as I'm desperate for us to be able to compete at the highest level I fear this type of development may cause me and many others to be priced out of watching live football. Let's face it 'they' aren't going to make season tickets any cheaper just because you're getting less games in a 30 game season. After all you're getting better quality...so stump up! I dread to think of the levels of debt people will get themselves into to continue to watch their team. But then you and I, the football fan, are inconsequential to these guys. Who cares if we can't afford to go and support the team, there'll be plenty of 'new' fans who can afford to watch.
I have no problem with change for the better, so long as it isn't JUST change for the better of profits and major shareholders.
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Great article Paul. I think it wuold be terrific for all celtic fans to see us being able to compete for the biggest and best in the world.
I do think that UEFA and FIFA will take more than a passing interest as will the G14(18/20).
I don't see why season books have to increase, as our revenue will go through the roof. I would be much better to increase the stadium and corporate facilities and keep the real fans onside.
I think there will be all sorts of political pressure put on from all sides.
I hope it comes to pass, sooner rather than later.
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This is the type of news I have been waiting to hear.
I bought £5000 worth of shares at 48p in the knowledge that at some stage Celtic would be involved in a massive restructuring of football - at which point their true worth would be realised.
Even if this rumour is a false dawn, at some stage Celtic will be where it belongs.
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This sounds promising Paul & thanks for taking the time - but i'm keen to hear your thoughts on one small factor - what the governing body of the game have to say about all this. I understand that changes in the game will happen, though i'm unclear as to how the big clubs can force the hand of FIFA/UEFA on this one regardless of how much money is involved.
Put it this way - I can say i'm going to build a swimming pool out my back garden, however if the Council don't give me permission then i'm stuck with the crazy paving & Swingball. I know this is a bizarre analogy, but you know what i mean - i hope?
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Interesting stuff-but why would Glazer limit himself to a British market?
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As suggested by DialupCelt, isn't it more likely that Glazer would be looking to instigate the formation of a true Super League, encompassing the best that Europe has to offer? Why would he want to see Man Utd play Tottenham or Everton when they couls be facing the likes of Real Madrid, AC Milan and Bayern Munich week in, week out?
While I'm always sceptical that such a rosy future is there for Celtic to enjoy, I agree that there will be some fundamental changes in the game, probably Europe wide. And the question of UEFA backing it may not be such a problem, as they have been hankering after a European Super League for years - hence the formation of the Champions League, as it is today. It wouldn't take a seismic shift to expand this further and take measures to protect the exclusivity of the G14 clubs.
I think that what we need to hope for is that UEFA recognises the potential of our club in this equation. The spectacle of Seville and their reaction to that (TGFIE), followed by FIFA's recognition (TGFITW), will have done our cause no harm in this respect.
Meanwhile, the top 16 seeded clubs in next season's Champions League are as follows:
Real Madrid, AC Milan, Barcelona, Manchester Utd., Inter Milan, Bayern Munich, Arsenal, Porto, Juventus, PSV Eindhoven, Lyon, Panathinaikos, Chelsea, Celtic, Villarreal, Sporting Lisbon.
Of those, Panathinaikos, Villarreal and Sporting might have to make way for a second team from France (Monaco?) & Germany (Schalke?), and possibly one from Belgium (Anderlecht?). And where would Liverpool fit in? I can't see that England could warrant four teams with Spain only having two... Furthermore, I don't see a country of the size of Scotland getting two entrants, so we'd better make damn sure we win the SPL every year until it happens (if it ever does)!
But at the moment this is all still a pipe dream, and until it becomes anything else we need to be totally focussed on achieving and maintaining total dominance in Scotland and making some sort of impression in Europe. This is the only way to guarantee that we will be in the frame, if and when there is one to be in.
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The scentence that makes this for me is when you mention that Celtic will be taken along as part of the ride and not the driving force. To date us going to England has been driven (be it perceived or not) by the Old Firm ie We want in please Mr English FA - no go away Scottish trouble. Instead it will be please come Mr Celtic you are needed to improve the package. This will make the media / fan backlash far less troublesome.
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One other thing Paul that nobody else seems to have touched on - will the huns really need to be included? If this goes ahead and we're turned into one of the world's richest clubs "at the stroke of a pen" surely the same will happen to that other mob.
Anyone fancy seeing Ronaldinho or Zidane lining out for them? Me neither.
Also, as someone said earlier, surely Glazer is looking at an even bigger picture and hoping to include the Barcas, Reals, Milans etc into a European super league. Why all the focus on Britain? Surely Glazer's out to conquer the world, starting with Europe?
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McStay8, ur investments are ur own business but did u invest to make money or purely for the love of the club?
Just wondering how many Bhoys out there would be happy to sell shares when the time is right
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anonymous 9.28
We have global appeal - they most certainly do not!!!!
They will of course get bigger but it will be very much in our shadow as we have the infrastructure - they do not.
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Very thought provoking Paul. Thanks for the research work. It makes a big difference getting the information this way than via the scottish dailies. What is undoubtable is that Football is loved in so many parts of the world, no religion or culture has considered banning it.It looks like football will become the new Hollywood. Instead of the set of Cleopatra the punters in Cairo will be taken to the Theatre of Dreams. It will be in places like China where it will really take off. Football became a passion in places where people needed something to excite them after a shift down a mine or in an assembly plant. In the tea shops and hotels of Shanghai instead of Rita Hayworth they will be craning their necks for a glimpse of....Aiden McGeady. We may well be bit players to start off with but inevitably we will get a starring role. All we need are the right people negotiating at the Celtic End
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Long term blog reader, first time poster.
Really enjoy the blogs, Paul. I think this site is increasingly addictive for a lot of fans because deep-down we are all desperate for some major changes in our football environment. In other words, maybe too many of us just want to believe that the changes you've mentioned are really going to happen!
Although, going by the financial info you've mentioned, there will have to be massive changes down South or the most famous club in world football will be going down the pan.
You said that nothing will be announced until next year, but surely by your own figures, Glazer has to challenge the existing TV deal before next season begins?
Keep up the good work.
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What a load of bull. Sounds good in theory but will never happen.
ps think Rangers should be mentioned in the same bracket as Chelsea, Liverpool, Arsenal, Newcastle United and Celtic. Not down there with
Everton, Tottenham, Manchester City, Aston Villa and Middlesbrough. They are, after all Scottish champions and every bit as big as your top sides.
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Some of you guys may not have seen the previous bloggs in Jan / feb on the Europe V UK issue and also some examples of the other areas where cross border leagues are shaping up so I expect Paul will be able to give a quick link or ref to them maybe?
Basically, there is a tested format in the uk and the CL works for UEFA and europe too (and they would fight tooth and nail to keep it). If you put the uefa in the corner they will go for the jugular, scuppering everything. There needs to be a plan that works (and is tested) straight away, Glazer can't afford any plan rewrites.
Time is of the essence.
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Anon 9.30
I of course would be willing to sell some of my shares if the price was right. But I would always want to hold shares in my our beloved club.
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Well done Paul! Your article shows the clear motive that the rest of the sports and business press has missed.
The key for me is that no-one lends on a whim, even the high risk hedge funds. Therefore it is safe to assume that this is virtually ‘in the bag’ with all of the tier 1 clubs tied in a pre-contract agreement and most of the tier 2 clubs well on the way. In fact that must of happened before the beginning of May.
The MG payback does require a paradigm shift in the industry and now is the time. For any doubters, please refer to business cases like Richard Branson. For those of us old enough to remember, he managed to change the rules first in the music industry then the airline industry. The main aspect in both cases was that the barriers to entry were enormous, but once breached seemed blinding obvious. The similarities are startling.
A note of caution before we get too carried away: Celtic must be a prime mover in all of this to maximise our opportunity.
On a parochial note, I love the notion that we will be considered tier 1 and RFC tier 2.
HT
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JBII - I would question your assumption about our infrastructure.
I have watched Celtic matches in various global locations (France, Germany, USA, Australia to name a few) and we do not have an infrastructure. We have loyal fans the world over, fans who would go to extreme lengths to see the matches, we have a number of independant clubs/fan groups - but whatever organisation exists is ad-hoc and organised at a local level.
The annual meet in Las Vegas this year will probably be bigger again than last year. There is huge potential out there, but unfortunately, Celtic has done very little - so far - to maximise this.
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Why are we sitting here letting these people (Glazer, et al) take over football? When did shareholders become more important than fans? Yes, I know they can be one and the same.
Football is a sport, Tesco is a business.
Britain has changed irrevocably, and not for the better, since 1979. The NEED to make money has overcome all other needs.
The only NEED I have from Celtic is the NEED to go out and win the league and then go into Europe. My reward for this is European nights against the best from other countries.
Why shouldn’t Bolton Wanderers be allowed a chance against the big teams?
Why is a football player allowed to earn £50k A WEEK, why even £20K?
These moves are not about football they are purely about greed.
Apologies for the rant. I do enjoy the site and I’m not usually a mad old romantic.
I will try to post a reasoned opinion later.
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I meant the club's infrastructure (i.e financial stability in its own right not topped up by holding companies or generous owners!!!!) is in place.
We have global appeal (as witnessed in Vegas and the Champion World matches) that Rangers simply do not have.
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Anon 9:38
"What a load of bull. Sounds good in theory but will never happen"
Thanks for that insightful analysis. I'll mull it over for a 1/4 second or so.
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Timmy7
Football became a business the day players and agents started believing that they should be paid more for a week than I make in a year.
bryanboru
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What a lot of claptrap you people make me sick. You poncey white collar workers with no life slevering over silky football games and the demise of smaller clubs.
Celtic are a scottish club and should therefore remain within the scottish set up. Celtic already pit themselves against the best in the world and do not do to well at it. Football is a working class sport it is not for the likes of you to get away from your wifes and horrible children for a few hours, its for the lads from parkhead shettleston calton etc etc. You people make me sick with your hospitality and standing around spouting crap to each other with a mineral water and volovont in you hands spew. As Roy keane said you the prawn sandwich brigade are spoiling the game, sod of .
Just take a look at the west ham fans at cardiff. True working class people who know how to enjoy themselves. You lot should just go watch tennis or some other poncey sport.
GRRRRRR.
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Did you mean Vol au vents?
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Anon 10:06
Mate, go back to the canteen. You've got a chip on your shoulder...
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In the meantime Paul we also need to be maintaining our new found level as a UEFA "Pot 2" team. However, this is where the success of reaching Seville may come to haunt us.
Our coefficients for the last six seasons are (oldest first): 5.691, 4.856, 11.186, 23.433, 15.433 and 8.567, giving a total UEFA coefficient of 63.477 (they use the last five seasons only).
Next season's coefficient has improved slightly despite our relatively poor performance in the CL and failure to qualify for the UEFA Cup. However, this is only because the sixth last season was even poorer!
But in three years the Seville season will drop out of the reckoning, and our coefficient may drop significantly as a result.
In order to maintain our coefficient at it's current level to (hopefully) maintain that Pot 2 spot, we will have to emulate our 2003-4 performance (3rd in CL group and then QF of UEFA Cup) in each of the next three seasons.
That is the minimum requirement we have now set ourselves if we wish to dine at the (almost) top table. With success comes greater expectation...
Can we do it?
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Don't know about anyone else but I haven't been this excited about a summer since MON first arrived.
No matter what anyone thinks changes are in the air at the top level in England and we may be a part of this in ther medium term.
We have a new manager who is saying the right things and seems to have his own ideas on players.The fact that we are being linked with Riordon is positive as he is not a 30 something has been.
Momo will not be the last underperformer to leave.
Things are looking good so be prepared for Murray to come out with some nonesense about how Rankers are going to dominate the world and most of the press to believe him.
A final point , Juve ,Real and Barca are playing a dangerous game by not bidding early for Lovenkrands as we have found out in the past you can't delay when the best are up for grabs.
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Vol-au-vent ---- smal- au vent--- canapes, smanapes, you get the drift of the post sod off and let the game be for the people it was intended to be.
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Anon 10.06 - the majority of Celtic fans on here are interested in their club, the same way that you are. Their interested in the possibilities that our club could be involved in because it's exciting times ahead - it's just healthy discussion between people from all different walks of life. I admire your romantic views on football being for the working classes & agree with you to a certain extent, but if you canny come on here & be constructive then you should go back to polishing your sovereign rings & watching folks motors at the game.
Rudi Vata's Lynx Africa
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Anon - 10-11 dont you mean the eaterie or the cafeteria or the dheli. Prefer the canteen myself.
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If they need to get to get to 14 out of 20 EPL clubs to agree and as you say they would all need to have “set entry requirements, such as club stadiums requiring Uefa Four Star status, though this is likely to move to Five Star status within a short period (50,000 seats, enormous media facilities and a large international airport nearby).” How will this work?
I looked at the capacities of EPL type clubs (see below) only 4 would have 50 k capacity now or in the near future. So the majority would have to be willing and able to commit to either moving to a new stadium or massively upgrade their own.
You mention Chelsea, Liverpool, Arsenal, Newcastle United, Everton, Tottenham, Manchester City, Aston Villa and Middlesbrough as possible clubs who would vote yes but who be the other 5 who would be able and willing to make up the numbers up to 14?
Premiership Capacity
Chelsea 42 k
Arsenal new stadium
Man Utd 67 k
Everton 40 k
Liverpool new stadium
Bolton 27 k
Middlesbrough 34 k
Man City 48 k
Tottenham 32 k
Aston Villa 43 k
Charlton 26 k
Birmingham 30 k
Fulham 22 k
Newcastle 52 k
Blackburn 31 k
Portsmouth 19 k
West Brom 28 k
Sunderland 49 k
West Ham 35 k
Wigan 25 k
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The key to all only this is the dismantaling of the current structures which lock revenue streams in place. To dismantle these structure you either need agreement or a judicial judgement. The first is a non starter (turkeys voting for Christmas, and all that) so the second route is more likely.
As has been commented elsewhere the current football Association structure is very likely contrary to european competion laws. It would only take one or two adverse judgement to bring the structure down.
UEFA is a powerful organisation but compared to the EU and European Court it is a minnow. Let us not forget Bosman.
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First time poster no.48,096 - yes, you've roused another long-time lurker to post Monsieur Soixante-Sept.
First thing, it's been clear for many years that change MUST happen in the structure of British and European football. The strain created by the ambitions and financial needs of the small number of superclubs that operate within the national league set-ups really can and will only be resolved by a new competition which satisfies these needs. It's clear that this must be supra-national as there is no other way that the required level of investment and financial return can be made to stack up on the balance sheet. It's not just the huge red figures Abramovich and Glazier have created at their clubs that are the issue, it's the debt levels of the major clubs in Italy and Germany (never mind Real Madrid's get-out-of-jail-free deal with their local council). Borussia Dortmund are just the latest to go down the Leeds United route, although the total debt they ran up isn't as big as some other clubs we could mention... As we all know, the Champions League was the compromise reached between UEFA and the big boys to create this supra-national environment, but this appears to have played out its role as a Trojan Horse for restructuring and the real deal is now about to come to pass.
Which is a long way of saying "it's going to happen, better get used to it (and make sure we don't miss the boat)".
Paul's twist here is that the proposal is for a British super-league, not a European one. As an ordinary Celtic supporter whose face is pressed up against the glass looking in I don't have Paul's insider information, but, like a few posters before me have already said, I find difficulty in understanding why it should just be a British solution. The same issues of dealing with UEFA's stated position that the national league structures will remain the basis of the industry have to be faced whether it's England and Scotland or England, Scotland, Italy, France etc etc. Also, whatever we say about global appeal or otherwise, Celtic and Rangers are only two big fish in a very small pool and don't bring a great market for TV or sponsorship when compared to continental teams. Just look at the break-down of the prize money for the CL for the financial proof of that. So unless it's something to do with the date of renewing TV agreements across Europe pointing this towards an EPL-style solution, I still think the European Super League must be the way forward.
Personally I've thought for a while that the answer/compromise will be a two-tier structure whereby teams will compete in the Super League in parallel with their national leagues, though how you resolve the need for promotion and relegation is another issue......
Yours In Celtic,
The Wee Free Tim
P.S. Great site Paul!
P.P.S. Best wishes and prayers for Geraldine and Martin
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Guys 10.06 Anon has his view - we are all entitled to one.
10.06 We have a choice to make, dine at the top table or fall into the back waters like Queens Park and 3rd Lanark. Where would you rather see Celtic in 20 yrs?
Personally I agree, I'd love to see Celtic compete in a top Scottish League that could also challenge for European Cups but it won't happen. We need to embrace change and get involved in it.
Do you want your kids to support Celtic or do you want them to be another "remeber when" story?
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Paul, the scenario your are predicting is much the same as my own thoughts on the matter.
The big factor that would allow Celtic, and unfortunatly, Rangers, into the proposed new set-up, is the fact that we both have a large stadiums and are able to fill it exclusively with our own fans, if we have decent opponants.
How many teams in Britain, or indeed Europe, can make this claim?
The next biggest factor is of course, a world-wide fan base. I think that the 'Seville factor' proved that Celtic fans would go to enormous lengths and in large numbers, to support their team, and, crucially, do it without any policing problems.
I think the the big problem with Rangers lies with their support. It was noted across the world, the Ranger's fans bigotted response towards the death of JP11, and that cannot have done their universal appeal any good.
Murray has tried to distance the club from bigots, but his attempt was decidely facile and the fan's response less than lukewarm. The 'Eggs Benidict' story was a nail in that coffin.
Besides, they have sold half of their media rights and subsequently could only expect to raise half the revenue available to Celtic. I think that these two factors could actually exclude Rangers from a place at the 'top table'
While I agree with the thrust of your scenario for the breakaway 'big league' the reformation of the other leagues is less clear.
The excluded clubs will band together and form their own little leagues as happened with the rugby game.
I think that Rangers are more likely to be in this second grouping at least until they can rid themselves of the sectarian baggage of their fans. But without their sectarian fans, do they really have any great support to call upon?
Great posting Paul. There's lots of wheeling and dealing to be done, and dare I say, exciting times ahead.
Greenmantle
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"GRRRRRR" - sounds surprisingly like the noise a constipated bear might make. Could you not find a wed-site for your own kind to spout on.
Good point about the Volvic & Vol-au-Vents. Mmmm.
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Anon 10:06
That'll be Roy Keane the multi-millionaire who earns twice the national average annual salary in a week.
I didn't know he felt so strongly about where his wages came from. If he does he might want to take a cut like Tommy Sheriden and donate the rest to charity. If not, I am not interested in his opinions.
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Shammy said..
Paul, all sounds great if we are invited?
When you say "It is important for Celtic to be part of this and not be left outside." Does this mean there is a chance that we are not invited?
Also, this would explain why the players we are currently being linked with are from the SPL. Cheap and low wages. I feel that the boards current ambition is just to win the SPL until they know they are definetly invited to the 'Ball'. Only then will they open the purse strings.
'Neg Anon' has been predicting this all year. The man's a legend!
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We in the lower reach look on this with caution and optimism.
Sure, the inncentives are there, but is this the monster you want to create?
If I could go back 50 years in footballing time - I might.
150000 at Hampden, 100000 at Old Firm Games, 50,000 at the "smaller" club matches - plus free entry at Half Time, Raymond Glendinning, Puskas at Wembley and cloth caps. That's football.
I've been to sporting events in North America, and hate the crass commercialism. There is nothing to compare with the chill of an October night in the drizzle as two clubs and their fans passionately vie for the bragging rights in Arbroath, Peterhead, Dundee, Edinburgh or Glasgow.
Let's not sell our souls down the river here.
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"There is nothing to compare with the chill of an October night in the drizzle as two clubs and their fans passionately vie for the bragging rights in Arbroath, Peterhead, Dundee, Edinburgh or Glasgow."
You can keep that, I what something better. I what to see quality football in a quality ground and a quality team representing Celtic football club.
White Collar, Middeclass and proud of it.
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"White Collar, Middeclass and proud of it."
'Middeclass' = slighlty better than Middleclass....obviously.
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Great News there Paul, really liking the Site and the "Big News" was definately worth the wait, it wouldnt be right to have published it last week because as GS said...."it was Martin's time"
Season Ticketsare upped in price every year and i think if we were to move to a different league they would definately go up in price, no doubt about it.
One more thing, i have been buying my cousins season book off him for the past 4 seasons, but now he has stopped playing amatuer football on saturdays he is wanting it back for next season, so how do i go about getting on the waiting list for my own? i would be much obliged if anyone could help, cheers!
Peter
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The reason why this is focused on a a British rather than a pan European league is that there is no market for this in countries like Italy.
Witness crowds of 10,000 (I think) at a Juventus CL game. Italian teams like to play each other and has historically always been that way.
Another point to consider is that SKY may be at the zenith of their power. The next wave of broadcast technology is more suited to the traditional markets of cable TV and bizarrely enough phone companies (3G technology). I believe satellite signals can't cope as well with the amount of data that travels through the process from sender to receiver.
HDTV signals, super broadband access etc ,video playback access anywhere in the world - it is the way forward, companies such as NTL/Telewest (about to merge I believe) and O2, Orange and Vodafone (now that is interesting from a Man Utd point of view) may become allies to Glazer in his revolution.
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As I am not an owner of the means of production nor live off my inherited land, nor off interest in shares I would consider myself working class.
Also if any one wants to know the origins of football please read `The People's Game: History of Football Revisited’ by James Walvin where you my find out things esp. in chapter 2 which may change your outlook.
Also one last plea for the end of generalised `you people’ statements as they totally make unknown assumptions, and as we all know if you ass/u/me you make an ass out of u and me.
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"As I am not an owner of the means of production nor live off my inherited land, nor off interest in shares I would consider myself working class."
Oh well done you've read Marx.
However, most commentators are agreed that Marxism is no longer relevant. Nowadays class is a state of mind. You be working class if you want, and I'll drive around in my 4x4 and be MiddleClass, but I'm still be a Celtic supporter faithfull through and through.
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Martybhoy,
10.06 is , of course, entitled to his opinion and I don't think any posters on here need to be lectured on that point. However, when he uses statements like...
" You poncey white collar workers with no life slevering over silky football games and the demise of smaller clubs."
...then he deserves what he gets. An opinion is one thing, to be judgemental and vindictive to that degree, IMO, goes beyond the pale.
If reading the posts on here make him sick, why bother to read or post? I'll go back to the same old line I've used before; if something I don't like comes on the TV, I'll switch off or switch over.
I think this is the best Celtic site by far because people of all views and opinions are welcome and while contributors may have very strong views they are, generally!, able to express them in a decent manner.
Unfortunately, Paul's excellent site may soon be a victim of its own success. Accepting posts of 10.06's sort will be the thin end of the wedge. NOT because of his opinion, because of the way he chooses to present it.
Ooooh, hark at me!
Rant Over
Regards to all
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A couple of minor observations on some of the above comments:
We (including myself) laud the "Seville factor" when talking of the Celtic support, but this is not indicative of the numbers that would travel to away games in a European league set-up. Seville was a one-off, a major European final, and a defining moment for a generation of Celtic supporters. We moved heaven and earth to be there.
For "routine" league matches this would certainly not be the norm. How many Celtic fans were there at Barcelona, Villarreal, Stuttgart, Munich, Donetsk...? It varies from a few hundred to a few thousand, but not tens of thousands. That would be a more realistic expectation in a European league environment. There would be a need for home fans to fill the stadia at these matches. (And I think that the "5 star" criterion regarding proximity of a major international airport is not therefore so relevant, as the number of travelling fans would be significantly smaller than for a major final.)
Celtic could do it at the outset, but would it be sustainable long term, given that these games would now be routine rather than "special European nights"?
Also, remember that this is still only speculation. It is a dream, not guaranteed.
A while back Paul published an article on how regional European leagues might feed into a European Super League in the future. I feel that this is a more likely scenario which better protects the individual associations and the smaller clubs therein, whilst giving everyone the opportunity to work their way up to the top table.
In this scenario I do not think that Celtic would necessarily start at the Super League level, and may have to gain promotion to get there.
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Greenmantle interesting point regarding Rankers.
Paul would we be a package deal with Rankers?
How would the local police look on a later day invasion of the Hun masses ( perhaps the wrong choice of word).
I can remember a couple of years ago they agreed to play someone in England and it was touch and go whether the game could go ahead due to fears of trouble.
If this comes to pass I would think that away fans would need to satisfy themselves with PPV or the pub.The sacrafices we make!
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Hi all,
Thanks for the great new thread Paul, and again I (as a working class guy)would love to see us mix it with the best in a new league. The only problem here is what if we wern't invited? Just how sure are you Paul that we would be one of the first teams sought out for this 'new league?'
I would be very sorry to hear that a top table was being set up but we weren't allowed to sit... It now looks like we will be passed over for the G14 again... why would that happen if we were as big as we all hope and beleive? And if were not good enough for the G14, what makes you so sure we'd be good enough for this new superleague?
Hail Hail
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Anon 10.06
I appreciate where you are coming from and what you are trying to say.
However many of us are from working class backgrounds, many have made a few bob through very hard work and discipline and we are still who we always have been.
Football is commercial and has been for many years.
It would be better if we were stuck in a 60's scenario where we could have 11 players from Scotland making finals and semis of europe every year.
Unfortunately those times have passed as the bigger clubs have made huge amounts of money in TV rights.
Celtic have been left behind by earning 1 million a year from TV whilst the likes of wigan athletic can expect to earn 20 million next year.
For the future of our club we need to be on a bigger stage.
To compete with the likes of Barcelona, Man Utd and others for the best players we have to raise the money coming in or we will forever be the poor team of European football who will never realise our potential.
This to me is more unfair that 9 million Celtic supporters worldwide are frustrated when we cannot realise our true potential whilst looking on at others with lesser clubs who are enjoying the fact they can entice some better players than we do.
If something like a new league in the realm of what Paul is describing does come about then we will be one if the really big major clubs in Europe.
Our choice is not about those who eat prawn sandwiches wanting this to happen and those who are proud to be working class.
It's about where we want to be in 10, 15 and 20 years time.
We either take advantage of the commercialism that already does exist, and do what we can to take advantage of it to help us progress to become like Barcelona and Man utd or we can be the Forfar athletic of Europe.
Tony, Latvia
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Paul, I appreciate the time and effort you have put into this article but honestly I can't see it happening.
I think that a number of the 'posters' to the site live in an idealistic dreamland that this is going to happen and we are going to be part of it. We don't even have sufficient status to be considered for European finals (let alone so called British Super League) yet the Stadium of Light in Sunderland does - does that mean Sunderland will be invited to particpate also? I dont think so!
Given our current status and predicament i.e. 2nd best team in Scotland (the league doesn't lie!), with an unproved manager, target signings of O'Riordan, Hartley and Niemi! - shouldn't we be concentrating all efforts on becoming Scottish Champions again and making an impact on the CL before having notions of joining a British Super League.
Yes, we have potential but it has to be nurtured properly and developed over time in the correct environment
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Paul,
Interesting article, which all seems pretty feasible.
To those who suggest that a European league is more realistic, it would be riddled with far too much beaurocracy, not least of which would be the fact that UEFA would have terms and conditions thrust upon them. I can't imagine them being too happy to cooperate, as it would ultimately signal their end. Furthermore, against the background of the EU Treaty, it would be impossible to introduce within 3 years.
When the fat cats have satisfied their budgets, and are looking to increase shareholder value once again, then a World Series, rather than a European League is the inevitable consequence. This will occur about 10 years after the reformation of the EPL, by which time European clubs will be more willing to react quickly to market circumstances.
Football at the highest level has been ignored by big business for too long. It has by far the biggest global pulling power of any sport and slowly we are seeing this trickle through to club level. As Cabbage said, the train is about to depart….
KD FfM
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Like most of Paul's big pieces, the current thread makes some fabulous inferential leaps. No-one doubts that change in the structure of football is inevitable, but why must it be this way? Unless Paul has some greater 'in' than he has previously admitted, then surely this is simply speculating on cicumstantial evidence? It may be plausible speculation, but it's probably not even the most plausible outcome.
In addition, is it not possible that the increasing acquisitiveness and commercialisation of football is the cause of the current malaise, not its solution. The worry about our domestic league (and most others in Europe) is that it is not competitive enough and has become less so over time (I know Celtic and Rangers have always dominated, but not to the extent now and to the exclusion of all others). This lack of competitiveness is a direct function of the concentration of resources in the hands of a few large clubs/leagues.
I want Celtic to win everything (home and abroad), and I want them to do so in a competitive environment which rewards managerial nous and player flair...not just money. The key question should be 'how do we level the playing field(s)?' not 'how do we concentrate resources further?'. A Celtic that says gimme, gimme, gimme and to hell with all those 'smaller' clubs (both in Scotland and elsewhere) is a little dimished in my eyes.
I'll always support Celtic, because it's about us. But the only investment I'll make in Celtic is an emotional one and I'll hold in disdain all those who invest for profit.
I want to be Barca, not Man U. If you own a season ticket, you own the club.
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Paul, you said a few articles ago that you had to check with some people before you published. Can we assume that this story comes from hard sources or is it your reading of the current situation ( as in your previous blogs re the accounts)?
If so, are these sources sufficiently high up within the movers and shakers to suggest that there is little reason to doubt that this will come to pass?
What are the obstacles that may prevent this new league?
How much influence does Michael Glazer have with - say - Abramovitch?
Is Man Utd still the powerhouse it was or has there been a swing to London? You say that Glazeris not playing roulette (Russian?). However by securing the amount of debt he has does this not weaken his bargaining position? United might need this deal soon but Chelsea/Arsenal/Liverpool are not quite as desperate ( albeit two have new stadiums to finance).
What tie ins are there to the new media?
How much input, if any, does Celtic have in this? Or are we merely possible guests to the party?
This is not meant as criticism. i guess I'm just looking for a bit of reassurance.
Meanwhile thanks for the great work Paul
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Paul, you said a few articles ago that you had to check with some people before you published. Can we assume that this story comes from hard sources or is it your reading of the current situation ( as in your previous blogs re the accounts)?
If so, are these sources sufficiently high up within the movers and shakers to suggest that there is little reason to doubt that this will come to pass?
What are the obstacles that may prevent this new league?
How much influence does Michael Glazer have with - say - Abramovitch?
Is Man Utd still the powerhouse it was or has there been a swing to London? You say that Glazeris not playing roulette (Russian?). However by securing the amount of debt he has does this not weaken his bargaining position? United might need this deal soon but Chelsea/Arsenal/Liverpool are not quite as desperate ( albeit two have new stadiums to finance).
What tie ins are there to the new media?
How much input, if any, does Celtic have in this? Or are we merely possible guests to the party?
This is not meant as criticism. i guess I'm just looking for a bit of reassurance.
Meanwhile thanks for the great work Paul.
Chrisg
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Hello again
Setting aside the issue of who owns football nowadays, just a couple of comments on comments.
San Miguel at 11:02 - very interesting point regarding the parochial attitude of Italian football fans (and dare I say it, some of us too, in light of some postings here). As a veteran of many Old Firm encounters I can testify that the Roma v Lazio derby I went to was the scariest 90 minutes of my life - not so much passion as blood-lust for more than one Ultra that I saw. Unfortunately, local passion/blood-lust does not equal financial success, and, following on from Napoli's collapse last year, it is estimated that as many as a dozen of Italy's top clubs could follow them. No, it's not just Motherwell, it's the big boys too. The point about their small-ish CL crowds is also pertinent - this could indeed be because the fans are simply not interested enough, or it could also be because the ticket package is not attractive enough for them. Whatever, it can be argued that the current set-up isn't working for fans or the club.
The new technologies are very much key to the future so far as creating substantial new revenue streams are concerned (or so it says in a million and one business plans, fingers crossed etc etc). And this is where Bigchipsuk's point (11:20) about away crowds gets factored in - whether it's PPV, a package, or a combination of the two, these very same business plans use their black magic to create a percentage penetration figure of all those who can't afford to travel to the away games and just how much they would be prepared to pay. For example, Celtic may take 15,000 to a big match in Italy under the present format, but if Celtic TV can offer them the live match on whatever medium for £20, how many will choose this option? 5,000? 10,000? More? Add on all those fans in our diaspora around the world, and you start to get some serious figures.
Maybe:-).
The whole thing depends on the correct product though... Which brings us back to... EPL Plus or a real European Super League. Decisions, decisions.
The Wee Free Tim
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Thanks for all the feedback and support and welcome to all new posters. Apologies if I have not answered your question direct, I am on limited time at the moment (and do not know he answer to several questions).
JohnBhoy, Glazer needs to support of only a few people to push this one through. The rest of English football cannot stop the plan if the few at the top all push in the same direction.
No idea on the size of the parachute needed.
Uefa and Fifa have no direct interest in this as it does not affect one of their tournaments and they have already said they would not stop Celtic and Rangers moving south.
Brummiebhoy, confidential business deals do not need to be disclosed to the stock exchange.
Promotion and Relegation would remain in principle, if not in practise (as with Falkirk).
Source please Anon 3.31? aye right :-)
Scottish Leagues will remain as is without C & R.
Eugene, America will take more work than Asia, how big a slice of the US market do you need to make a lot of money? Not much.
Clarkey, I expect the Champions League soon to be admitting the top seeds no matter which league they are from, and dispensing with the 4 from a country rule.
GalaBhoy, the SPL will release Celtic and Rangers with 2 week notice on payment of a big bundle of cash.
Tony, I don’t know why they are holding back until 2006.
Couple of points on season book costs increasing:
To what extent this will happen will depend on who owns the controlling interest in the club, as well as the usual supply / demand rule.
As I keep saying buy shares in Celtic, one day soon it will be really important who owns what.
I have no info on plans for a Euro league beyond this.
Yes, alas, Rangers are part of the package (for all the business reasons mentioned above).
Class war rears its head again. I suppose a boy like me from a Holytown council estate should get back to rearing pigeons? Inverted snobbery, working class people are as capable of succeeding in business as anyone.
See that Karl Marx.
BigCHipSuk, relax, next seasons CL win will sort the Uefa coefficient.
Celticbhoy, I expect a lot of stadium development will take place over the next 10 years.
Paradigm Shift/ GingerDoc the choice is no longer ours, we do not make the decisions. This has been inevitable for 100 years, since football became a business.
Peter, pester the life out of the ticket office & you might just get lucky (not by post though).
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Anon - 10-36 "your own kind" please do expand.
Tom 64 - Checking and then rectifying your own spelling mistakes is a sign of low self esteem possibly why you choose to drive a 4x4 on normal roads. Sign of a middle class wannabee. Your not middle class you might percieve to be in your own mind but your not. If you want comfy cosy surroundings then go to the pictures.
I do have to chuckle when people put forward the 9 million fans world wide ditty. Its not true. The guy who put this forward has been replaced at celtic park oh I wonder why.
GRRRRR.
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GRRRRRRR...
How many fans do you think there are?
With being in a more lucrative league and being able to compaete for the best players, how many new supporters do you think we could attract?
The point i was making is the same you will hear from the majority of Celtic supporters, we are not realising our potential in the SPL.
Tony, Latvia
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Wee Red
I can see Man U (and Glazer)going to the wall for not servicing their debt rather than all the chaotic changes there would need to be for this to come to pass. Too many vested interests, too much greed, too much assumption. Especially coming from a Yank and to the exclusion of the other influential European clubs.
Wee Red
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All well and good, should it come to fruition, but tell me this, will we be able to compete with a board as negative as ours? I think not. Yes we would have much more money coming in, but they would still run a tight ship, and cost us the chance of signing some superstars. If we ever want to be one of the big boys again, we have to have a more forward thinking, and ambitious board.
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So you reared pidgeons paul?. Or are you just expressing a stereo type of working class people?. No doubt all those wasted hours down the GMC.
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Paul, as always a well reasoned and thought provoking article.
However, I have my doubts concerning the speed and magnatude of this plan, pricipally due to the anti-glazer anti-manu feelings that exist and that will be encouraged by this.
The political fall out from such a move would be huge and glazer would become a rallying point for anti-american anti-globalisation feelings.
I think change will come but it must be inclusive, there must be a place where everyone can survive, prosper and compete. Without competition this new format will be consumed by apathy and will alienate large sections of the public and sponsors.
I still believe a reduced EPL league 1 and new EPL league 2 with promotion and relegation are our most likely points of entry.
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Paul,
I didn't realise that you reared pigeons as well. It has been a hobby of mine for some time.
Maybe we could have a CQN Pigeon Do.
J. Lambie
Whitburn
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Anon - 12:30
"Tom 64 - Checking and then rectifying your own spelling mistakes is a sign of low self esteem"
-er..no it's a sign of someone noticing a spelling mistake.
"Sign of a middle class wannabee."
- Are you for real?, get a life why don't you.
"Your not middle class you might percieve to be in your own mind but your not." - Do we know each other well enough for you to make that statement or are you yet again making assumptions?
You obviously do not know what you are talking about and have a substantial chip on your shoulder for some reason.
Football is an entertainment not a social movement. Comprende?
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I think what Paul was meaning that when you are in the larger marketplace then you will attract new fans that you didnt have previously, whatwith tours of America, Australia and the Far East.
Look at all the new Man Utd fans when they went there with Beckham.
Does anyone appreciate what the market is like in the Far East?
Big Keowny
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I don’t think there are genuine business reasons for rangers being involved with any moves we might make – whatever they may be.
One of the best things about this forum is the absence of the dreaded ‘Old Firm’ phrase – a definition of ‘lazy journalism’ if ever there was one.
I may not be in favour of this brave new world but if it rid us of our albatross it would sweeten the pill a little.
Celtic must move to get out of this ‘partnership’ Find some way to end joint sponsorship. It can be done – after all it wasn’t that long ago kit manufacturers had to be the same – we may need to look outwith the UK for the sponsor though. I am not opposed to having the name of a beer on the front of our jersey but why not make it a good one. Furstenberg anyone?
We should also do more to target the perception that both teams are equally guilty when it comes to tolerating bigotry.
We will never end the ‘special’ nature of the derby but we shouldn’t let the fact that we share a city mean that we must come as a package.
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With a major move in manufacturing to the Far East by Europe and US their will be millions with more cash in these countries than they ever had. They will look to spend this on many things including 'western' goods and services including footie merchandise. We have a major market to aim at make no mistake.
GJ
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Timmy7 - unfortunately, there are genuine complementary business reasons for the Rangers to be involved. In terms of a "product", the new league would have the Celtic-Rangers match as one of the highlights ie the product is enhanced by their inclusion.
In France, the league struggles often to create interest as there are no big rivalries. Marseille-PSG & St Etienne-Lyon perhaps, but nothing like the BIG MATCHES that exist elsewhere. So for the new league to have instant appeal, Rangers would be included. Hopefully, though they would be relegated after a while.
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‘Good article’, ‘very interesting’, ‘well researched’……….
Get a grip of yerselves.
A few financial facts strung together with dollops of invented scenarios and hypotheses.
Yeah……... like Paul67 REALLY knows all this!!
Hahahahaha…….. laughable.
It was made up, invented…….. this guy is the Santa Claus of the internet!
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Anon 1.24
What web site are you from?
Not the one who repeats what we already know, disguised in a new headline every two days to make people click on the site?
Are you the Parrot of the internet?
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Guys, I don't know if it's been covered, as I'm struggling to keep up today. The question why would he stop at a british league has been asked a few times. My tuppence worth -:
I think Glazer will be out to maximise all the markets he can. Starting with UK, how much of the Billions that Sky put in can he monopolise. That would not preclude him from being involved in Europe too. He would look to maximise any share of the pot there. whatever shape the future takes in UK and Europe, he will hope to sell that on to the emerging market of China, India/Asia and the US.
It may take time, years, but I don't think he is in this to make a quick killing. We are one of the biggest Clubs in the world but we need to be getting our fair share of the Global markets. I think getting into the big bhoys playground is the first step.
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Take a deep breath, count to ten, then DO NOT RESPOND. It only fuels the fire.
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Hi Paul,
Interesting article. I think the amount of cash we have to spend in the transfer window this year will let us know if the scenario you mentioned is in fact feasible.
If DD, Coolmore Guys, Glazer & the rest are aware of this possibility and indeed think it will happen then the Celtic £15M share issue is not a lot of cash to do what needs to be done at Celtic i.e. Training facilities, Stadium Upgrade to 5 Star status etc etc. How much does that leave us for transfer targets?
If it does go ahead in 2008 we only have 2 years (start of 2007/08 season – not long) to get the squad up to a standard that could compete in such a League. I say 2 years because I don’t expect us to buy 7 world class £10M players in one go, we need to build up a team to gel together etc. So if the board has sold the idea to WGS then they will need to ‘speculate to accumulate’. Do you see that happening?
It would be ‘exciting’ if it does happen but also worrying as well.
Regards
StevieD
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bigchipsuk- celtic euro traveling support has been curtailed due to CL rules regarding amount of traveling support allowed.
but from experiance and Barca 1st time 25,000 travelled and 10,000 the second.
Stuggart 12,000 travelled
Munich 8,000 tickets sold by CP.
Milan 8,000 tickets sold by CP.
Doneskt 500 :-)
Run of the mill CL away games sell out and the clubs we play are always looking to give us more tickets.
Anyway Paul what is to stop Celtic just ripping up the setanta deal and getting there own deal.
surely sky would be up for showing all our games pay per view and us just giving the opposing team a fee for their trouble?
£15 million per season sounds good to me.
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Paul, i know you cant answer every single question on this boeard, but I am still unsure as to why Glazer held out, then paid hugely over the odds, for Man U. Am I wrong in saying he could have acheived the same ends with Chelsea had he got there before Abramovich? And therefore, why should Chelsea, Arsenal and Liverpool support his moves, sure they could make some short term capital by following them, but by staying put they could rid themselves of their main competitor.
I have no business background so sometimes i feel like i am embarrassing myself here - am i missing something?
One more thing, do you think this league will run in tandem with the champions league? or, and this seems more likely to me, the ultimate destination is a pan european superleague with a supplementary cup competition much the same as exists in any domestic league at present.
And could this actually be supported by governments as it may bring huge tourism boosts? anyone who doubts the potential for regular away support in europe need only compare prices between flybe.com, easyjet, ryanair and the rail companies-its now cheaper for me to get a flight to glasgow from here than it is to get the train. budget airlines could make a killing with regular weekend flights if they got the pricing structure right, and tourism in the relevant countries would be boosted by the 2 or 3 day arrivals of footy fans every other week.governments and councils would surely be happy with that. Am I being naive?
Brummiebhoy
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Hello again everyone.
Great article Paul, one of your best yet and well worth the wait.
The thing which most surprised me is the supposed wait for 2006 for the first public steps to be taken. With a 2 year notice period for the SPL, and (I think - anyone know for sure?) the Premiership, this could mean a 2008 start for the new league. If I were paying 17% on £500M+ of debts I wouldn't want to wait 3 years before doing something about it.
Perhaps the intention is to deliver an ultimatum to the respective leagues - allow change in the summer of 2006, and receive parachute payments etc, or make us wait until 2008 and get nowt.
I estimate this change will increase the overall value of the Premiership's TV rights by 25% or so, leaving aside potential new income streams from emerging media techology. The change will also concentrate the resulting funds much more heavily in the hands of the top half-dozen or so clubs. As new boys, Celtic will earn less than Man Utd and Arsenal to begin with, but our finances will still be revolutionised to the tune of £40M a season or so.
The Premiership is already the richest league in the world. The current distribution of TV finances has been a major factor in inhibiting major English clubs from parlaying that financial dominance into European success over the last five years. Expect to see that change once the new setup is in place. There will be a major dog-fight over the first few years to achieve dominance in the domestic environment; a likely consequence is that the wages of top players will escalate beyond current levels.
This represents a huge challenge to the leading clubs in other countries. Expect a similar consolidation between Serie A and La Liga clubs, perhaps with Portugal involved too; amongst France, Germany and the Benelux leagues (well, maybe not Luxembourg!), and so on. Some clubs have already shot their bolt; substantial debt overhang will prevent them from competing for many years, if ever.
While I respect the sensibilities (if not always the logic) of those who oppose developments like these, the ruthless business imperatives which will drive them is unlikely to stop there. Who knows what the landscape will look like in 10 years time; will we have moved to a pan-European league, a World league, a closed shop of super-clubs similar to the American model? Who knows. Whatever happens, I want to see Celtic involved at the sharp end of that competition.
The bad news for others is that Rangers will be in the new league and will have a chance to excel there too. The good news is twofold. First, being subjected to an international audience will expose their more unsavoury side to severe scrutiny, and may help to improve it in some degree. Second, their relatively concentrated fanbase and consequently lower international appeal means they will eventually find their own level some way below Celtic's - though hopefully in the same league so that we can retain the pleasure of rolling over them from time to time :-)
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couldnt agree more Timmy7.Really bugs me too being lumped together with Rangers.If we were to break free I think they would eventually wither away.I think that their only reason to exist as far as a huge percentage of their fans believe is to stick it right up us-and by that I mean religiously and politically.We are a much broader church(if you pardon the expresssion)and far more inclusive.I wish the media could see that we are so different from them in many ways not just in religious terms.I would say in general the celtic support is left of centre and republican(in the sense of non monarchist)they are more right wing and monarchist.There are therefore many different reasons why we have nothing in common with them.
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This is becoming decent comedy. A bit like the 2 characters on the Fast Show :
Paul67 -"Celtic – brilliant. Aren't Celtic's board brilliant, really...." ;-)
Various Anons - "Rubbish, and that's rubbish, and that's rubbish - and that's rubbish and all...."
Thankfully, most of the people contributing have taken Paul's effort for what it worth - a very well researched piece with some decent hypotheses. Could well be the future, maybe not. A very good thought provoking read that has spawned some decent points/questions.
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Tom64 at11:11 AM, said about me
”Oh well done you've read Marx.” I was attempting to take your position on against those who come on making remarks about people they don’t even know or make generalized sweeping statements, you would have seen that if you had read my post properly, but after your patronizing comments you can …oh yes this is a family site.
You also say that ”However, most commentators are agreed that Marxism is no longer relevant. Nowadays class is a state of mind.” I’ll take your word for it as I stopped reading politics after my degree in that subject.
You also said “You be working class if you want, and I'll drive around in my 4x4 and be MiddleClass, but I'm still be a Celtic supporter faithfull through and through.” Well essentially I don’t give a monkeys what your state of mind is, what you drive or even if you are a Celtic supporter or not.
P.S Middleclass doesn’t have a capital c and faithful only has one l .
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We've enquired about Niemi, Riordan, a Man Utd Player &
Jérémie Berthod
A left-sided defender, Jérémie Berthod was touted as a star of the future from a young age, and so far in his embryonic career has looked capable of meeting those high expectations.
National team
Berthod was a key member of the French side that emerged victorious from the 2001 FIFA Under-17 World Cup, scoring the winning goal in a 2-1 success over Argentina in the semi-final. After also being honoured at U19 level, Berthod was part of the France side that won the Toulon Under-20 tournament in June 2004.
Club
Born in the Lyon suburb of Tassin-la-Demi-Lune in April 1984, Berthod joined Olympique Lyonnais as a 12-year-old and went on to enjoy success at youth level, winning the Under-15 league title in 1999/00. He played a major part in the Lyon reserves' CFA title success in 2002/03 and signed a three-year professional contract that summer.
2003/04: One of the revelations of Lyon's march to the title, he ended the season as the champions’ regular left-back. Berthod made his Ligue 1 debut at the age of 19 in a 1-1 draw with AJ Auxerre on 13 September and went on to start 24 league matches, and six more in the UEFA Champions League.
Neil Mochan
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John_H :
I agree individually with most of the points you make - except for one thing. We should not let our dislike of Rangers prevent us from maximising our own potential. As stated on a previous post, in a bizarre, kinda freaky Liger type way, Rangers enhances our brand.
The very reason ManUd, Chelsea want to play us is that the audience is interested. It is the same for us Vs Rangers - a match with global appeal.
Plus if they are included, they will only let themselves down - on and off the park - putting us in a more favourable light.
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If we are going to try and compete with the top english sides would it not make sense to start having a presence in overseas markets.
Our fan base although widespread is mainly scottish/irish origins. The wider exposure of the epl has allowed the major clubs to build a far more reaching base.
To combat this surely celtic can sponsor and establish feeder teams in places like India. They are on target to have the largest population in the world and football is the second most popular sport and growing.
If and when the big move comes we would then have a ready market or at least a base to build on. It shouldnt cost a lot and is excellent PR.
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Anonymous 1.46 - how are The Saints doing these days all the way down there in Hampshire?
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Who do you think the Man Utd Player is we're chasing?
Likely: Phil Neville/John O'Shea/Kieran Richardson/Roy Carrol/Solskjaer
Stephen McGhee
Newarthill
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I read this site a couple of time a week and have noticed a recurring theme.
The editorials are a good read but that’s all they are, a read, they are the thought and expectations of Paul67.
A lot of comment on his editorials take what he has written as truth and fact.
As far as I can see the financial details are based on fact but a huge leap of faith is required to remotely believe anything else that is mixed up with the fact.
Posters here really have to learn to separate fact from fiction and conjecture from sensible comment.
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"P.S Middleclass doesn’t have a capital c and faithful only has one l ."
I thought this was a site about Celtic football club not a spelling B (bee?).
Can you please get back on track and stop pointing out to the world my atrouushiss spelling.
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2.14 credit people with the ability to work this out for themselves.
this site is all about opinion, paul gives his you give yours, everyone makes up their own mind.
there is no brainwashing
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Tom64, yes I agree that this is a site about Celtic football club not a spelling B (bee?). But were you not the one who posted at 12:57 PM, “-er..no it's a sign of someone noticing a spelling mistake.”
I have always been “on track” and I’ll stop pointing out to the world your spelling when you do likewise.
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tom64,
how can you say "get back on track" when you are talking about Middleclass/ working class or spelling on a football site.
interseting article,
would always like to see this happen but until it does i'll stick with what we've got just now.
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The suggestion of this UK league at first seems far fetched. However once you consider that Frazier is in need of the amount of cash to repay the loans that he is, then you must assume he has a plan of this fortatude to achieve is goals. People like Malcom Frazier did not make his money by being stupid and if this is indeed his idea and Celtic are involved then it is a very exciting few years ahead for our club. It also seems very much like an American approach which makes it more believable.
On another note, milkray states rightly that we should be streching our bounderies and fanbase particularily into the lucritive and relitively unexplored asian market. Although it must not be forgotten that we have a massive suport in the USA which as far as I'm led to believe - according to a recent documertary on Ireland - is made up of 1/3 Irish descendants.
Here's my opinion on the ins and outs this summer:
Definetly outs:
Lambert
Sylla
Douglas
Hedman (probable/hopefully drop out)
Possible outs or retirements:
Sutton
Varga
Balde
Thompson
Lennon
McNamara
Henchoz
Slight possibilities:
Petrov
Hartson (don't know why but I have a feeling he will be moving)
Obviously not all these players will go (I'd certainly expect less than half to leave). I've not heard Agathe whinging about playing elsewhere for awhile but he's always a doubt now O'Neill has left.
What I've picked up so far on Strachan's shortlist is possibly:
-Bellers
-Antti Niemi
-Robbie Keane
-Kevin Phillips
-Derik Riordan (1 or two of the above strikers)
-At least 1 defender (possibly O'Shea according to the gossip)
-If not Niemi then one of the 2 foriegn keepers whose names I can't remember from media articles.
I would love to see Wilhelmsson from Anderlecht come to CP but it looks like Inter will snap him up for about 3m euros.
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would like the man u player to be richardson/o'shea. please god not neville
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Anonymous 2.14...
Quote: "The editorials are a good read but that’s all they are, a read, they are the thought and expectations of Paul67."
So what is it? A "good read" or just a "read"?
Also, explain to me how the editorials on Celtic Quick News are any different from an opinion section or editorial in any national newspaper or 'traditional' media outlet?
I'll tell you what I know is different though: the people who read this site can comment, challenge and contribute to the articles published here in an unsantisied and unedited fashion (you, for example, with your half-hearted deconstructive piffle) - unlike the sub-literate bile published by the Fourth Estate every day of the week, which sheep like yourself continue to blindly purchase, gleefully digest and spout forth to your peers as if it was the word of God brought down from Mount Sinai on tablets of stone by Moses himself.
Celtic Quick News is primarily a personal opinion forum for Paul67 - a place where he can report facts about Celtic's finances and business dealings, whilst simultaneously challenging the lazy, advertising-driven headlines of the wider media agenda.
Put down your Daily record and open your eyes.
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CelticBhoy, Bryanbhoy67
I did not instigate the conversation on those topics, I merely replied, so direct your ire elsewhere.
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Another Excellent and thought provoking article Paul.
But am I the only one who finds this whole scenario deeply depressing.
Slowly but surely big business is squeezing every last breath of romance and tradition out of a game they wil never truly understand.
I'm a subscriber to Sky so I am a hypocrite on these matters. But IMO we're selling our soul to the devil.
I grudgingly accept that this may be the only means for Celtic to compete in the future at the highest level, but it doesn't mean I have to like it.
Just ask yourself this question. Are these moves meant to benefit the club owners or supporters? The answer's obvious.
To quote a certain David Brent: "Sure you're succesful, you've got what you want. But is that all you think about, chasing the Yankee dollar?"
I'm now off to read by pocket book of Native American mediatations!!
Hail! Hail!
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An all-British league is a no brainer. The only thing that has prevented this in the past has been the national football associations who worry about the implications for the 'national' teams. But the wings of FA and SFA have been shorn and the power now rests with the premier leagues in england and scotland. The FA and SFA will probably wring their hands and cry foul, but the clubs will proceed as they see fit and maximising income is now what it's all about.
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Tom64 I disagree, but where I do agree with you is that it is now time to leave you as you lie.
3:03 PM, Anonymous If you don't like what is written here then do as most Celtic fans do with the Record and don't trouble yourself with it.
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The point of this forum is soley to bring news and opinions on matters which involve Celtic. It is widely accepted by fans that the majority of news coverage on Celtic in Scotland is bias, unfair and negative. It is not difficult to spot which team the media favours. This forum is an oppertunity to get info regarding Celtic which is not tainted to sell papers.
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Tom64 and Celticbhoy
Stop it now or you'll both be put in the corner :-)
Site needs both you guys on board, lot of anon insulters around.
PS Interesting article.
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Anon 3:03.....
"an ego trip for Paul67"......I'll echo what Martin 2:50 said...."Celtic Quick News is primarily a personal opinion forum for Paul67 -a place where he can report facts about Celtic's finances and business dealings, whilst simultaneously challenging the lazy, advertising-driven headlines of the wider media agenda."
The fact is Pauls stories may or may not happen, but the people who post here on the whole are at least willing to debate the merits therein. Not all of us agree with what he says, which I assume you don't, but he at least is looking towards ways of pushing the club on - I don't see this as a problem.
Francine McGuire
Nottingham
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thedominie, I will follow your wise council.
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I dont neccesarily agree with all that Paul writes,I do believe however he does so honestly.
We should all take into account the time and preperation he puts into his posts. Whether as individuals we agree with what is posted we should afford him the respect for starting up the site in the first place. If the site was not good and in a sense addictive we would not spend time on here both agreeing and disagreeing with the content, now would we. I say keep up the good work Paul.
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Well Paul this latest posting of yours seems to be stirring up the waters and a lot of muck is being stirred up.
An earlier poster suggested that it would be best to ignore and not respond to the anon posters who are trying to muddy the waters on this otherwise excellent site, I concur with that sentiment.
A lot of posters seem to be missing the point about the gross effect that Glazer's plan to manage Man U's TV rights will have. It is on this premise that everything else hinges.
Surely logic alone would lead one to see the massive shift this would have on the world of football as we know it. Does anyone really believe that this will not inevitably happen?
There will be an inevitable delay of this occuring, because of the FA's existing contract with SKY.
Some clubs will be sitting back watching how Man U progress with this project as it is human nature to resist change, but the more astute and confident clubs will be quick to appreciate that there is a whole new ball-game up for grabs and will not want to miss the boat.
The question of away support does not have to be too big a factor, except in the 'bigger' matches and it will develop naturally. The key factor will be the home support that a team can engender, and how much of a PPV audience a club can command.
Anyone who has read any of the good Celtic sites, will have read postings fom England, Ireland, America, Australia and Europe and surely can appreciate that apart from the wide audience that Celtic already commands, there are vast untapped audiences just waiting to become involved.
America has been trying for years to export their version of football without success, while soccer in America. is exponentially increasing it's market share. It's no surprise really when one considers the racial polyglot, that makes up the American population.
The people of Spanish, Irish, Scottish, S America and English decent, who have never really been sold on American football and are still interested in ' football as they know it ' is really a sizeable fan-base just waiting to be addressed.
One poster, mentioned that the American football game, which is electronically timed to last for exactly one hour, actually takes about five hours to play because of the compulsory advertisement breaks, and time-outs.
That's history now. Who really wants to spend the best part of a day, hanging about waiting in traffic-jams to and from the ground, waiting for advertisor breaks and time-outs, all for one hour of football, when one can watch a real football match in the comfort that they choose and it takes only one and a half hours, which includes only one advertising break?
As has been already mentioned, since football became a business, it is inevitable that it should evolve in keeping with the latest technological advances and this is just the start of of the advances that we are beginning to witness in Michael Glazer's purchase of Man U.
I've been watching, on Celtic TV, some of the games from the sixties and seventies and boy, who would want to go back there.
The pitches were so sub-standard they they generally resembled a ploughed field, and the total time wasting employed at set-pieces, and pass-backs between the keeper and the defenders was anything but pretty to watch.
Currently, stadiums are far superior and it's no longer a health hazard to sit where once we stood, trying to avoid the urine underfoot, and women were not catered for in the slightest, other than in the main stand.
I can really forsee the big football stadiums in Britain being like the New Millenium Stadium in Cardiff, where the external weather will no longer be a factor in deciding the fate of a game.
I also think that it is inevitable that electronic aids will be used to determine goals, and off-sides.
Those people who do not see this as an inevitable conclusion of the direction of modern football will still be able to excercise their right to stand in puddles in the rain and watch their desired preference at local parks.
If the doubters just take a look around and see the effect that TV exposure has had on all forms of sport, from athletics, rugby, even snooker, and still can't forsee the changes that will happen in football, then they are niave in the extreme or just don't want to face up to the future.
There's big changes afoot, and frankly I welcome them. Keep it coming Paul.
Greenmantle
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Francine, Celticbhoy, Anon 3.03 is gone. Sexual imagery on a Celtic site. In over 10,000 comments he is a first. Bye.
Reluctantly I will change policy and delete aggressive comments in future. Also from next post will only allow registered users. Kids use this site; as such there need to be limits of what can be tolerated.
If only those who disagree would stick to the point, take a leaf out of Neg Anon’s book, who disagrees vehemently with most of what I have to say, but displays the qualities which mark Celtic fans out from the crowd.
Held the line as long as I could dialupcelt, but we are not here to corrupt young Celtic minds.
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A very interesting article Paul, well thought, good research and some conjecture, makes sense to me.
You have to look at Glazers history here and his involvement with sports.
As we all know (or should) Malcolm Glazer is the owner of the NFL franchise Tampa Bay Bucs. Prior to his involvement Tampa were the laughing stock of the NFL, the team with the worst record in "football". Three years ago Tampa won the Super Bowl.
Glazer has embraced the principles of the NFL, the most successful sports league in the world, a cash making cow where it is well nigh impossible not to make money.
How is this done?
A limited number of teams and thus fewer games.
Great competition where anyone has a chance to win on "Any given Sunday"
Superb marketing which is eaten up by the masses.
A great TV deal shared by the clubs.
Exposure to overseas markets like Asia. This year a regular league game will be played in Mexico.
So on and so on.
Does this ring a bell?
Glazer obviously sees this as the business model for the future success of the revised EPL and just a point of note, the present NFL is a merger of the old American and National leagues.
And guess what, go to any NFL ground on a Sunday and it is still attended by the "working class blue collar crowd"
Glazer may be many things but stupid he is not and there is no way that he has entered into this agreement with the level of debt requiring service, without knowing that he can repay and then make a killing .. it's the American way.
Celtic will be an integral part of this process, we can be a "money making machine" given the right circumstances, and those circumstances are what Glazer will create for us as well as others.
Football is big, big business these days and has been for a long time and those who think otherwise are badly mistaken and in for a rude awakening.
In 1970 prior to the European Cup Final against Feyenoord when our players bickered over potential win bonuses, do you think that was for the good of the club ? No, it was business rearing its' ugly but inevitable head.
We will be at the table and we will be invited to dance, we just need to make sure that when our time comes (our day will come!!)we are ready to seize the day.
Roll on the future.
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Who the hell is this Michael Glazer character that many people keep referring to - does Malcolm have an equally wealthy brother? Lets get him on board!!
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Wee Jinky,
I think that most people would prefer a return to the 'golden days'. Your point...
"Just ask yourself this question. Are these moves meant to benefit the club owners or supporters? The answer's obvious."
...is well made and we know the answer (don't we?). Football becoming a professional game wasn't to benefit the supporters either. It is a shame, but the times they are a-changing and Celtic will either change with them or be left behind with the also-rans.
I really don't believe that it is a selfish act (as the rather irate, only working class guy ever, who posted previously seemed to suggest) and it would, in time, benefit Scottish football in terms of making the league interesting for the others rather than just an annual fight for 3rd place.
I must admit that I don't share Paul's view on the timescales involved (although I'll be happy to be wrong). There are too many (IMO) stakeholders, regulatory bodies, legal and contractual variables etc. for this to happen in a couple of years.
What IS crucial is that the board at least plan to take advantage of any scenario changes and ensure Celtic's place at any future footballing 'top-table'.
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wee jinky, you're not the only one that feels that way, as I posted near the top of the page. I fear a not too distant future where the majority of grass roots fans can't afford to go to matches, their places taken by increasing capacity for corporate hospitality. Football to replace rugby as the game of choice for the public schools?
We're a bloody football club, not a multinational conglomerate. we're a hugely important part the community (with obligations not just to parkhead but glasgow and scotland also). To hear the money mentioned...the daft celtic supporting kid in me says 'great, ronaldhino at parkhead soon', but the cynical adult in me thinks its obscene.
its not too difficult to imagine after a period of time, a feeling of disillusionment within the grass roots football fans, leading to them drifting towards other sports, and where would the game be then? if this was the case, then this move would not be the saviour of celtic, but the beginning of the end of football as we know it.
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Forgot to sign off the above 3:47 post
Brummiebhoy
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Geordie Bhoy,
Didn't he play 'Starsky' in the 70's series 'Starsky and Hutch' or was that someone else?
It's at around my age the marbles really start to go...
Regards All
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Anonymous 3.47
You have nothing to fear about the grass-roots supporters being priced out of going to see games. The extra revenue will be derived by the addition of a larger PPV audience.
As mdbhoy (3.46) has already posted, the NFL model is the direction we will be moving in and, guess what, the NFL spectators are by and largely a ' blue-collared' spectator grouping.
Of course there will be a larger corporate interest in the game, but not to the exclusion of the existing support who gave the games their passion and excitement.
Greenmantle
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MD,I dont think the NFL american football league can be used as any kind of blueprint.
They have a completely different structure to their sports. In the US the houston oilers can become the Tennasee tigers, the raiders moved from LA to oakland and are probably somewhere else now.
There is no community based following or attachement as in the UK. In the UK wimbeldon cant move from south london to milton keynes. Football is more than a game to its local area its the focal point of the community.
The elimination of opportunity for smaller teams will be the biggest barrier to major change. Change will have to be inclusive.
Money may talk but emotion shouts and screams, start taking peoples football clubs away and the fan will get hit big time.
Evoloution not revoloution is the way forward.
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anybody know how to retrieve log in details? i cant remember my password...
Brummiebhoy
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Milkray
you're right. The fans stopped Glazer taking over Manchester United
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Like a lot of others I have read this site with interest for a while but this is my first post.
I am very excited with this development. But I have one question:
-If Glazer wanted an entry to this type of market why didnt he buy into a cheaper club (celtic) instead he has gone for Man Utd which surely doesnt have the same growth opportunities as Celtic in this situation ?
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saddened by the amount of people here holding the NFL up as if its a good thing. is that really what you want?
id rather watch st ants
Brummiebhoy
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Milkray :
I can understand your reluctance the changes, but progress cannot be stopped.
Wimbledon did move to Milton Keynes - they may not have the name "Wimbledon", but the MK Dons took their place in the league.
The market will dominate - as it has always done. The Raiders moved from Oakland to LA - and then moved back because of market reasons.
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Totally agree with Paul's analysis of the Glazer/Man U scenario; this will be the trigger for change that has been in the air for some time now, albeit I have hitherto assumed that our invite to join the EPL elite would be preceded by a significant downward trend in SKY's EPL viewing figures.
We would only be invited to join them when they desperately needed our potentially massive financial clout(particularly in the context of PPV).
Glazer's debt introduces a wholly new agenda centered on media rights and their consequential revenues. It is on this aspect that Celtic is recognised as a major player by the Man U's, Chelseas et al; we have the stadium, the fan base, the international brand potential and the finance to take our place comfortably at the head table of a restructured British league. It is certain to happen...only a question of when and that will be determined by the expiry provisions of existing TV contracts and notice periods. Glazer will not waste any time; it's his cash that's on the line.
I can understand that many fans will be concerned by the prospect of change of this magnitude, however, the current product offer in the SPL is woeful and the recent trend of clubs going through financial difficulties surely signals a bleak future for the game in Scotland. We must not be pulled down with the rest of them.
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It's not going to happen. All this may well be Glazer's plan, but he has already created too many enemies for him to succeed.
It takes a team of skilled workers to build a house to completion. But only one thug with a big enough grievance and a big enough hammer to render it uninhabitable.
Someone somewhere will find the spanner and stick it right in there.
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I remember reading/hearing some guy talking about football economics in the early 90’s.
The thing I remember most from what he said was that player’s wages were set to go through the roof. He paralleled the monies earned in the film industry by the main star of a major film, to the salaries earned by the very top players in the game at the time.
There was a huge gulf between the two, and why should there be, he argued, as they were both working at the top levels of the entertainment business.
He finished off by saying that the next generation of footballer’s wouldn’t just move on to management, as was the norm at the time, they would actually be owning their own clubs, bought with all the millions they had made in their playing career.
At the time I thought – yeah right, but time has shown the guys prediction to have been almost spot on.
Just waiting on a high profile player to takeover and run a decent sized club!
One other thing I remember him going on about was attendances, and how the working class were being slowly driven off the “terraces” due to the rise in price of match tickets/season tickets. His vision back then was that as technology advanced, the majority of fans’ preference would be to sit in their own home and watch their team rather than sitting in the stadium. He estimated that eventually it would cost next to nothing to attend a football match, a nominal fee if you will, because the club would see gate receipts as pocket money compared to the millions they would make from fans via future technology.
I wish I could remember this guy’s name.
dialupcelt
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Interesting article again Paul and one which you have clearly put a lot of effort into. It's also consistent with the messages you have put across over the last few months and the conclusions you reach are well thought out. The outcome you describe sounds perfectly feasible to me, but I think there is a long way to go before we get there. As with most of these 'Grand Plan' things, the devil will be in the detail and there are certainly more questions than answers at the moment (most of them already shrewdly asked by other CQN readers who have got to the site quicker than me today - actually, that happens all the time these days).
Given that most of my points have already been raised, I don't want to go over old ground too much. But the main points from the article for me are as follows:
1) It was very helpful to my understanding of the Man U situation for you to provide us with Glazer's debt plans. I hadn't seen this analysis before and it puts things very much into perspective. To clear £80m profit on only £170m of turnover is nigh on impossible (that barely covers player wages) and something will need to change to finance that.
2) To 'qualify' for the league, a 5 star stadium with 50,000 seats is a requirement. Very few clubs have this in place already. A LOT of work is needed for the list of likely participants to meet this criteria. Is this likely to happen in the specified time frame?
3) I really can't imagine Europe's top clubs sitting on their hands and watching. They will either want to be involved, or will want something similar. These clubs also have a lot of influence and will want a share of the pie. (I have just had a vision of an NFL type structure - GB & Ireland, Mediterranean, Central Europe, Eastern Europe, all playing in Regional 'Super Leagues' with Play-offs for the Super-Duper Bowl winners!).
If this is going to happen, then part of me thinks it is very sad. I like the way football is and I like to watch any game no matter who is playing, because the passion is there for everyone, whether you are playing or spectating, no matter what the standard on display. However, and this is the crux of the matter, if the game is going to go this way, then I would rather my team were involved than on the outside looking in. If this happens, and Celtic aren't involved, then we can forget about ever seeing our club where we want to see it, ie. at the top of the European game.
If this is definitely going to happen, then we need to be at the forefront of it.
On the other issue of discussion these last few days, if the site needs to be censored, then it will be a sad day. Censorship is the last resort, and when this was discussed previosuly I was against any kind of censorship. However, that was back in the days when the site would get 100 comments a week, rather than 200 a day. The content of some recent comments have been of the nature where Paul has no option but to implement some kind of restriction on access. It is a sad step to take, but one which I wholeheartedly support.
Keep up the good work Paul (apologies for the long post - I find it difficutlt to keep up these days and end up posting one post instead of three)
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Makes interesting reading Paul,
Though perhaps you should write the next article sooner rather than later?
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Anon 4.48. From one Anon to another - watching Celtic blow the league against Motherwell was the worst day out I can ever recall in supporting Celtic since the mid 1970's. The only consolation I get, and it’s a very very minor one, is that there are Numpty Celtic fans like you around who will be feeling just as bad maybe even worse.
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Apologies dial up Celt - that anon 4.48 comment was not meant for you, it was aimed at a comment that has since been removed.
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Thanks for all the support again, I appreciate it.
dialupcelt, was the guy you are referring to called Fergus something or other? You can tell me :-)
Anon 4.22, no idea why Glazer went after Man Utd, good question.
Corrib04 you are a wise student of blogging. The humdrum is much more civilised.
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BTex, Wimbledon did indeed move to Mk after an aborted attempt to go to Dublin, gates in london ranged from 8K-12K. Gates at there new home have dropped to around the 300 mark.
NFL clubs can move their franchise wherever they want as thats all they are a franchise no more than a medium of entertainment and get full houses. Your point on the raiders makes this very case.
Football is more than this, I mean surely we view our club as more than this!
Manchester United fans may have not been able to stop glazer but they are only one of 92 league clubs. The mobilisation of smaller clubs who feel marginalised by the big boys will cause more than political ripples.
America has a college system to promote players and encourage the game at a lower level. Football has a pyramid structure, any system that challenges this is doomed to failure.
I believe change will come but it will be slower and require a broad church.
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Paul, it may be pie-in-the-sky stuff. But we can dream, can't we, of level playing fields which might just give us the chance to compete at the highest level once again? I just hope the scenario you paint is realised. For you romantics, football changed utterly the day professionalism took over. Celtic were among the first to take advantage. Ask Hibs? We didn't stick to Br. Walfrid's original ideals for too long, sad to say. But the rest is HISTORY...
By the way, I have shares and wouldn't trade them for the world, as would be true of any Celtic supporter. They were bought to build the club, not for personal gain.
Parkheadcumsalford.
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Paul,
Who would you side with in a (r)evolution? Man Utd or Bolton? A no brainer, plus much of Glazer's spade work has been done.
Dialup - you, me, Fergus and DD were listening to the same man! That is what I heard too.
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I am not doubting that football is big business.
Neither am I doubting a hard nosed business approach has always been present in football.
You only have to look at Celtic's very earliest days when as a supposedly amataeur club we were able to tempt Dan Doyle from the professional Everton.
Even that loathsome tag the "Old Firm" is born from the fact the Celtic and Rangers dominance of Scottish football has always been protected by both clubs as it is of mutual financial benefit.
However, we have now entered a whole near stratosphere and I fear there is no turning back.
The grip big business has on football is now vice like and everything that is great and unique about the game is in danger of being strangled.
Italia '90 opened the eyes of big business to the potential of football as a global money making machine.
In its wake we have seen the birth of the Premieship and the laughably titled Champions League. The motivation for both has been to ensure that the rich get richer.
Football did once pride itself as the game of the underdog, where David had every chance of slaining Goliath.
Now it only cares about the elite and bank balances. It is run by people who are more likely to worship Thatcher and trickledown than Stein or Total Football.
I admit either we jump on the boat or we drown. But as I said earlier it is very, very sad. Not only that but its plain wrong.
But hey, as long as we can sit down in our fancy all seater stadium and watch wall to wall football on TV then everything is great. Let them all eat cake!
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dialupcelt,
I had a similar conversation with my father-in-law. He has recently retired from a career in tv production. (he was heavily involved with outside broadcast of sporting events).He and some of his colleagues could see a time coming when fans would be paid to attend games, almost like extras.
The last thing the big broadcasters want are half empty stadiums. A sold-out ground with tons of atmosphere is what a global tv audience want to see. This might be slightly far-fetched, but it certainly goes along with the theory that admission prices are more likely to come down.
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It's been a few days since I posted. This is because I really enjoy reading the intelligent way these discussions go, and over the last couple of days, they've been brande new!
Of course we can dream and if the potential of those dreams are based in some form of logic then even that is what creates initial interest.
If there are negatives to those dreams then even better.
That is where discussion and thoughtful arguement come from.
What really cheeses me off are those who simply refuse to see beyond the limits of their ambitionless horizon.
This is for them
And as I read with wandering thoughts of what the coming years would hold,
Lost in dreams of CQN as ambitious visions did unfold,
Like me I’m sure that most of you who post our inner hopes and prayers
Ignore those sad and stunted folk whose lives seem lost in woes and cares
who hope that ill befall each one of us who set our wishes on this site
instead of joining in the fun they sadly spout their verbal (I wonder what rhymes with site).
So behind me get you evil hordes who hide your cloven foot with shoe,
Go mix some toads and frogs with spit, get up the close and sniff your glue,
Then pray to him owns your souls whose made your brains turn into slurry,
From Beelzebub, you’re Satan’s spawn, so say Seig-heil to Mr Murray,
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Using Paul's criteria, What's to stop DD & The Coolmore Mafia relocating Celtic and rebranding them as the world's favourite Irish diaspora's team.
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Paul,
I love your work here but can i push this one a bit further. There are not enough top clubs to fill this league.
Glazer comes from a sporting 'franchise' background. I suggest he'll approach the Irish and the Welsh to use Millenium and Croke( ban recently lifted remember)and enter new teams into the league. Possible the North as well if they can get a stadium together.
Magnier and McManus sold their stake to Glazer and must know his intentions-could they be plotting an 'Emerald City' based in Dublin with the Welsh 'Cymru Utd' from Cardiff. Instant 5 star stadiums and huge followings to contribute to this 'British Isles League'.
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Sorry to go off topic here fellas but I've just noticed that on the official site they have announced the pre-season schedule.
As I've forgot my password for the official site I can't see what the schedule is.
Is there any chance one of you could be kind enough to put the schedule on here?
Thanks!
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Paul67, another interesting article.
The reason for Glazer buying Man Utd is that they are arguably 'currently' the biggest football brand in the world, if you are going to kick start a revolution then the best place to start is from a strong position.
I think if several of the big clubs are already onboard with the formation of a new super league then it will only take 1 of the major players to commit to it and the rest will follow for the obvious financial benefits - make no mistake this type of revolution is not about the good of the football team, it is about money. Simple equation - Best team = more money so as a by product of generating more money you will have to provide a good team.
Organisation of a Super League may happen quicker than anyone expects if several teams commit to it.
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The knocks on American football being a 60 min game lasting 4 hours are no different than football being a 90 minutegame with the ball in play for only 57 minuts. Having played the game fo a bunch of years, trust me, it's good to breathe - we didn't get tv timeouts here in East London, hell we were hard pushed to field a team sometimes ;o).
Fascinating article Paul - I was aware of that hedge fund stuff and was trying to find a way Glazer would make the wedge to service it, whilst this is still right out there, it's about the only way I can see it working for him. Sellin a billion shirts in the Far-East at £40 a pop when their all wearing fake rolexes. Don't think so...
Of course it'd have had to be ManU he bought - it was one of only 2 plc clubs that the English league can't live without... Arsenal's debt committment for the new stadium would have given an even more massive debt burden even if he could have secured it for less.
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Estadio - Sinking a bit low with this:
"Then pray to him owns your souls whose made your brains turn into slurry,
From Beelzebub, you’re Satan’s spawn, so say Seig-heil to Mr Murray, "
I thought after 2 days you may have come up with something better than the usual banding about of stereotypes.
You're position is much less elevated than you think.
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I have been coming onto this site for a while now, but this is my first time posting. I agree with the many others who have commented on this being an opinion site, and each person being allowed to express that opinion. I would add though that I personally think that we are jumping to a few conclusions at this point in time.
First of all, what Malcolm Glazier did with the Tampa Bay Buccaneers is not necessarily an indication of what will happen with Man Utd. The fact is that (I don't how familiar you all are with the NFL's structure) due to the very tight wage structure currently in place in the league, it is quite plausible that a team can turn around its fortunes in a few short seasons. This is very different from the setup in football, where it is all about how much money you have (for the most part...Lyon and PSV being a few exceptions).
I agree with Paul that this may be our best hope for getting into a more "financially equitable" league. If this does come to pass, then financially it is a success for the football club. I don't necessarily agree with all of the conclusions and hypotheses Paul has stated in his post, but I will admit that it is plausible. Hopefully everyone else can at least agree upon that.
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fbicfc
its not really in question that man u are the biggest rand in the world, but he had to pay over the odds to purchase. consequently his profit margin may be less than if he had acquired say chelsea, who may not generate as much income, but would have cost a lot less so his repayments would have been less - he wouldn't even have needed a loan to buy them!
Brummiebhoy
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Hi Paul love the site.
I don't have any experience in business so forgive me if i'm ignorant but presumably DD et. all would have had some sort of discussion with Malcolm Glazer when selling their Man Unt. shares in a- we sell you our shares you include us in your new league sort of deal- after all they don't get that rich by being daft.
As much as I hate the huns and would laugh for years if thet were left in the SPL I agree with a previouis poster that Celtic and Rangers may be more interesting in the same league as it is a huge derby which, given the opportunity (more tv coverage) a lot more people would be interested in watching. Besides I quite like Old Firm games and the excitement at the prospect of beating the huns into submission never wanes.
I do wonder though how attractive their fans are to a new league- and I don't mean the lack of handsome huns. Why would English clubs and cities want the type of trouble that follows them around?
I know if I was a policeman in Liverpool I wouldn't be to keen on a group of glaswegian orange bigots visiting my town and fighting with the locals, they have enough football related violence in England already without importing some from Scotland.
The prospect of some non-biased referees at an old firm game fills me with delight and if this was a european thing could you imagine the volatile Italians response to their anti catholic rantings.
On another point I thought this website was about Celtic related issues not class wars, there are enough huns out there willing to give us tims a hard time so lets stop all tim on tim negativity!
On the subject of Far east potential i went on one of those round the world trips when i was a student and was near enough jumped by seven guys from Tiwan while walking the Great Wall of China as they saw my Celtic jearsey and wanted to tell me they were big fans, they were well impressed that I had a season ticket and told me something about Kenny Dalgleish being really popular in Taiwan. I also went to uni with a Japaneese guy who came to uni in Glasgow 'cause he was a Celtic fan.
But then i'm a bird so what would I know.
P.S. While writing this i'm trying to entertain by 2 year old by bouncing him on my knee and singing so apologies for spelling mistakes and mad ramblings 'cause I dont have time to check the posting.
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6.00pm Anon - Edinburgh Utd playing at Murrayfield? Queens Clyde Lanarkshire Thistle playing at Hampden? Maybe Wembley could be used also for Spurs or another emalgamation of London sides? Twickemham too?
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Wee Jinky
The friendly dates are
Sat July 16th v Fulham (Away) . Not time yet
Tues July 19th v Leiciester (Away) @ 19:45 Tickets for this one are £15/20
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ghirl - You're right, what would you know. You've been listening too long to the paranoid rantings of your big brothers. Maybe you should get back to indoctrinating your son.
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Brummiebhoy,
Glazier paid top dollar to acquire Man Utd as they have significantly more 'prestige' than Chelsea, but that prestige comes at a price.
Chelsea are not part of the 'Royal' family of English football no matter how much money they have.
In a business situation, such as a proposed revolution, would you rather be representing the cream of the Establishment or the 'Ducking & Diving Fraternity'?
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Don't have any big brothers.
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Thanks Celtic Dave, much appreciated.
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As usual trying to catch up.if what Paul says comes to fruition, I have mixed views.Great if we are playing top notch opposition every week-every match would be like European nights and i have no doubt our stock would rise in worlwide terms phenomenally.However from a purely nostalgic point of view its miles removed from the days when i asked "Mister will you give me a lift over the turnstyles"
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I am a long time reader of Paul67's blog and enjoy it for what I believe it is.
Pro Celtic Propoganda for the thinking classes.
I cannot help but think that in the last week or so, since the media acknowledged the site, that there has been a serious decline in the follow up postings.
It seems that the place is now attracting the type of internet pond life that would usually linger around the likes of 'Keep the Faith' and 'The Huddle Board'
Anti-Rangers sentiment is something that has never been solicitated here, and has certainly never featured in any of Paul67's articles.
Yet there are now terms like 'rankers' and the use of the word 'orange' to describe Rangers' fans. Also the sudden emergence of a poet, making refernce to Nazism and devil worship in regards to Rangers.
This site does not need that type of input. There are plenty of outlets for that type of thing elsewhere on the net. Please use them.
A new format is needed for this site to continue. I hope you can arrange it Paul before the usual few idiots ruin its credibility.
BTW - You are a bhoy, ghirl. Regardless of your sex. :-)
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Publius I take your point and agree it shouldn't be a place of anti-rangers sentiment and should be about pro celtic propaganda will refrain from that in any future postings many apologies.
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Greetings Paul67 et al,
"Thatsa Ma Bhoy!" As Dom would proudly say.
Great breakdown of a very complicated subject.
The Road to High Finance should only be trod by the intrepid few.
Pablo, you never cease to amaze. Lots of thought, the by-product of your effervescent grey matter, has gone into your percipient predictions.
I am on the same page as you are. One Hundred Per Cent!
You accurately mapped out the wave of the future, vis a vis the fates of the winners and losers in the New Age of Soccer.
Make no mistake about it! Glasgow Celtic will be ensconced in the Forefront, in the coming New Frontier.
Demitrius will see to that~this man is a true Captain of Industry and High Finance.
Now if you will pardon the insertion of a teeny non sequitur.
On the Matter of the annoying anonymous posters.
I decided to consult the Vulpecular Vito:
"Vito, pal, what's your take on the solution to the Dilemma of the Anonymous Posters?"
"Just as the act of wrapping oneself in the National flag, is the Refuge of Scoundrels-----Anonymity is the Refuge of the Pusillanimous!
Shine the light of Exposition on the Cowardly Cockroaches!
Present them with 'Hobson's Choice'.
Remove the 'Anonymous' and'Other' bullets from the Comment Box.
Log In, or, perish the thought!" intoned Vito.
"Vito, Vito, you astonish and astound me~ I have been completely unaware of your esoteric and clandestine erudition. Excellent point and a scholarly presentation." Fargo enthused, but also a bit confused.
"Aw Shucks,Boss, I may as well tell the truth.
I read all of that stuff in a Fortune Cookie, I opened, during last night's Chinese
Dinner." Vito admitted, a trifle shamefacedly!!
"Well, I'll be a Cream Faced Loon!"
(See: MacBeth, Act 5, Scene 3 )
Thundered Fargo,
"Of to your room--- and no more Chinese for a week!"
Fargo,
"Am going back to Glasgow,
Am coming back someday......."
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What's with all the anti~Esatdio?
Takes a lot of guts to put out the stuff that he does, more than hiding behind an 'Anon E Mouse'
Don't take take it so seriously just enjoy it it's actually pretty good ;)
Not sure about Glazer et al.
Bit to complicated for someone of my limited intelligence.
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Aye, thats right Sean.zo88. There's nothing anonymous about your name or Estadios eh?
It doesn't take guts. Its rubbish. Its not funny. Its inconsistent with the site.
Estadio - why don't you put your obvious talents to better use and come up with a Gordon Strachan song?
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fbicfc
point taken, and i don't really know much about the business side of things, but chelsea were just an example, another option that would fit the criteria are liverpool. their board have already shown they are ready to discuss the selling of the club with anyone(no matter how dubious their origin). liverpool certainly are part of the upper echelon of british football, and have a huge worldwide following, perhaps less than man u but they would be available at a fraction of the price. what im really trying to say is why was he so willing to play ball with DD and the coolmore mafia when we were also available. it doesnt bear thinking about.the money he paid for their shares alone could probably have bought celtic outright!
and DOES ANYONE KNOW HOW TO RETRIEVE THEIR PASSWORD!?
Brummiebhoy
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Anon E mous... don't want to get in to slaggin' match but my name is Sean by the way;)
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Mines, Anon. My friends call me Mickey. You can call me Mr. Mouse.
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brummiebhoy- maybe the moneymen wouldn't back his loan if he was to buy a club in a league like the SPL or if he bought Liverpool who havn't had the benefit of Man U's marketing. As he needed such a big loan and if his business plan is what Paul is saying then maybe the banks would only agree it on a club like Unt.
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but then he wouldnt have needed such a big loan if he was to buy another club I suppose. Thought I would step on my own point before the likes of Anon E Mouse does
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Dear Monsieur Mouse,
There shall be no Ad Hominems or to include the dear ladies--- No Ad Feminems either, to be fired on this Hallowed Site.
So Be off with you!
Return to your Mouse Hole and familiar surroundings.
You are seriously out of your Element.
Remember----
Not to Coin a Phrase......
"Those who can.....do!
Those who can't..... Criticise!"
Selena
M.I.T.
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An interesting piece Paul. It is very helpful to have the financial background to Glazer’s takeover of Man U set out so clearly. As you suggest something has gotta give. Where I take issue with you is your confidence that this will (inevitably) lead to Celtic and Rangers joining the EPL or whatever takes its place. I accept that Glazer needs Man U to generate lots of profit to pay back the debt and I also accept that he has a very good chance of changing the structure of the game in England. However I think you underestimate how easy that might be. It is not just the EPL that has to be persuaded/cajoled/bribed into acceptance. Any change to the EPL has an inevitable knock on effect on all the other levels of the game in England. The Championship or whatever it is called would need to be involved and the FA would need to give any final change its blessing. Quite a lot of negotiation here. Which makes me doubt that Glazer would want to also get involved in negotiating with the SPL, the SFA and Uefa. While Uefa would not block an agreement that had the blessing of the FA and the SFA, they would still be involved. And I cannot see why Glazer would want all the extra hassle and time that that would involve. The point is that a 16 team super league as outlined in your article would either generate the money that Glazer needs or it wouldn’t. I find it almost impossible to believe that the inclusion of Celtic and Rangers would make any significant difference. With only 16 teams in the super league there would be much less chance of Wigans and Portsmouths being involved and the extra income that two home matches against Celtic and Rangers would generate for Man U cannot be that decisive. If it is, then Glazer really would be playing Russian roulette. So while the addition of Celtic and Rangers would be nice (from the other clubs point of view) you need to explain just how it will come about. Financial pressure does not explain how change will actually happen, nor does it guarantee that it will happen. A final point, which I have raised before. Assuming that a super league is established and that it has Uefa permission to invite teams from other national associations, what grounds to you have for believing that the EPL, or its successor, would want to invite Celtic and Rangers as opposed to teams from France, Belgium or the Netherlands.
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Shammy said..
Ghirl, just put your point across, don't worry about the childish input from the smart ar*es.
Just read that GS is on holiday in Spain. Thought he had a job to do..?
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I think the reasoning behind Glazer's plan is fairly straightforward. He sees potential in bringing the EPL to the American and Asian markets. However, in order to do that he needs to control a big enough product. There is little point in Glazer buying up Chelsea or Liverpool and trying to tap into these markets because Man Utd. are already firmly entrenched in both, although not to the extent he envisions them being. I think he took the view that initally he was acquiring a large amount or risk, but the potential for future profits (assuming he gets this plan off the ground) is very high. Also, perhaps he felt that he needed to control the biggest English club in order to push this through. Any thoughts?
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Wee Jinky
I was unaware of the Dan Doyle part of our history, thanks. If given the chance I would opt to have Celtic compete on a level playing field with Europe’s finest and take my chances.
As you correctly point out, ‘those days are past now, and in the past they will remain’. The soul of Celtic has not gone yet, though I accept it is under threat, especially when ownership of our club passes through several sets of hands in the future.
I am going to let the board worry about tying up the details of getting to England and concentrate my efforts on encouraging share ownership among as many Celtic fans as possible.
Oh and please, no need to use the “Thatcher” word.
Rob71, and excellent point.
Without packed stadiums the TV product has less value. You can buy a ticket to see Borussia Dortmund for the equivalent of £6 and they sell 60,000 per game.
Dortmund have already reached this point.
Estadio, I am going to look up your posts and create a wee folder of them. Please tell me that have a career in the creative arts.
Allez le vert 67, Glasgow is the biggest audience for Celtic, where the biggest money is and so is where Celtic will stay.
Anon 6.00, Dublin and Cardiff do not have a heritage in club football like the big Scottish and English cities have. I accept that in principle the option is there, but I would expect to see other English cities there first.
Thanks ghirl and welcome.
I have no doubt that Glazer had many conversations with DD before the Man Utd deal was done.
I have spent many hours typing with a 7 month old or a 3 year old on my knee. Know the problems well.
Welcome Publius.
Fargo, was looking forward to hearing from you.
I will follow your advice as usual.
Welcome Anon E Mouse, our friend Estadio has built up considerable good will on the site. We were invaded by some invective this afternoon which raise the heckles of many.
Brummiebhoy, sorry, passwords cannot be retrieved.
Ghirl, I believe you may well have hit the nail on the head:
The Man Utd will have a value circa £400million, way above any other. The ration of debt to core brand value to buy Man Utd would be lower than it would cost to buy a Liverpool or Spurs.
Alistair7, I am very confident we will be invited to the party. DD will see to it!
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Brummiebhoy,
DD & the Coolmore mafia are astute business men, when approached by Glazier to buy there shares they have possibly been made privvy to some of his ideas and thoughts for a future superleague.
Maybe they sell their shares in Man Utd, make pots of money, and then maybe put some of the surplus cash thats sloshing about into another football club that they 'know' will be invited into a future superleague.
All if's, but's and maybes!
As for buying another club in the EPL or SPL I really don't see that Glazier had any option but to go for the top branded club, although Liverpool amongst others would be attractive I think they are significantly below Man Utd's penetration into other significant football markets, such as Asia.
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I'm sorry but this place is beginning to sound like a nursery playground. Pauls comments have been made and we should stick to the subject instead of the sad rants
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Corrction to Previous Post:
Should be "Ad Feminams" ,
I pre suppose that anyone cares.
Selena.
M.I.T.
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Look Fargo, I mean Selena Moonfaced whatever, I will decide on what elements I am either in or out. You however, continuously demonstrate being out of your gord. Put the bong down.
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spot on Publius even though the sport of 'rubbing blue noses in it from time to time within the confines of a financial environment' should really be permitted.
Not posted too many times myself (although viewed from day one) so a bit rich to comment but what the hell do i care.
There is undoubtedly a decline in standards, generally thanks to a few new posters and scurrilous infiltration. Don't be too dispondent celts those who know they've missed the CQN vibe - CQN is unique and can take some getting used to if you've been used to posting on some other forums.
An important point was proposed a few days ago and I second it. Maybe the only way to protect CQN is to pay for the privilege to post?
How about a small fee, say a fiver/tenner per year, by way of postal order/cheque to a PO box to permit posting. Viewing of course free to all. All profits to Jinky's charity fund? Maybe i'm way off the mark Paul and reigning (raining?) on your, and those who have been posting from the hubmle beginnings, parade - if so apologies.
celticwully
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Dear Monsieur Mouse,
Besides being inaccurate, as to my identity, I counted at least 2, vituperative Ad Hominems, in your diatribe.
Naughty,Naughty.
Don't look now but your obvious immaturity is showing.
Selena.
M.I.T.
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Moonface -
I like Ad Feminems better. More accurate too. So if you'd like to toddle awf, with your little linguistic superiority complex, we can get back on topic.
CUL8R et al, ad infinitum, je vouderes un kilo de pomme, ad nauseum, bite me.
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Paul. There has been a couple of posts suggesting that all you have is supposition and speculation. Can you confirm that you have more information available to you than is generally known?
Re the site: I have been a long time reader and sometime annonymous contributer (since inception). It is an unfortunate trait of popularity that standards can start to slip. Let's hope that allof us who wish this site to remain the best Celtic site on the net can maintain an example of how to conduct reasonable debate. Hopefully those of a less charitable disposition will rise to join us.
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I note with interest the harsh financial reality that Glazer has set himself with his takeover.I am pretty sure I read that a fair chunk of the family silver has been staked on this too.
Man U haven't quite become the Glazer family business but I would say they have now become the focal point of his business empire.
Failure at Man U really isn't an option for him and I doubt that some of the biggest financial institutions in the world would be queuing up to offer him cash without the prospect of getting a return on their money.
I understand why some people can see change in the EPL but not necessarily with us involved.But the need to maximise individual TV rights,creating maximum interest for every game,means that we are a far better option than anyone outside the top six.In fact,only Man U could claim to have a bigger worldwide support.
As for UEFA and the National Associations,I don't see what they could do to prevent it.I remember when the SPL and EPL were setting up and threatening breaking away,lots of people said it would never happen,but it did.Why? Crossing palms with silver,I fail to see how this arrangement should be any different.
The next small step for me to see if this is going to pan out is if Magnier and McManus invest this summer.If they do,it won't be for the love of the club,it will be to make cold ,hard cash on any prospective move.But as Negative Anon says "do the ends justify the means?" I think they do.
Incidentally,why did Glazer buy Man U? My own theory is much the same as a previous poster.Many rich people like possessions.The staus and prestige that comes with owning the most famous football club in the world can't be underestimated.Nor can the unswerving belief that you can make it bigger,wealthier and more successful to maximise your investment.
However,I feel sorry for Glazer.Little does he know that within 20 years, the team he has bought will only be the second most famous football club in the world!!!
BankieBhoy
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Hi Anon E mouse,
I would have responded earlier but my grilled pork steaks had caught fire!
I did not mean to upset you and was definitely not trying to create or pander to a stereotype. I was however creating the time honoured caricature which was aimed at the entirely negative postings of those who contribute with only malice in mind.
Positive contributions from whichever source are always welcome in my own world.
Paul surely deserves nothing less!
Anyway as for the anonymous aspect, I would just say that any reading of the piffle I have posted over time would have revealed what I drink, where I drink, who I drink with, where I sit at Paradise, where I live, what age I am. The only things missing would be my name.
But let’s keep a little mystery.
As for Wee Gordon.
I look forward to the day, hopefully not in the too distant future when the ripple of welcoming applause, the warm but careful reception, and the doubts of many who have felt let down over the past decades, with only one or two obvious exceptions, are all replaced by a Celtic Park resounding to his name.
Where the scarves and banners and flags bear the inscriptions and homilies to a man who has not only taken on the task of replacing MON, but who has taken that mantle to a level higher, who has created a brand of passionate football which makes the hearts and lungs beat and pump faster, where the songs and arias of praise are justified by glorious deeds, challenges overcome, opponents vanquished, and where the seeds of hope have flourished into a Celtic tree that no woodsman and no axe will ever be big enough, strong enough, or disingenuous enough to undermine what our club has always stood for, still stands for and always will stand for.
Believe me when that happens, Gordon will get a song from me.
Till that day, well as I say I don’t intend to upset you
But whether Gordon succeeds or not, whether we have money or not, whether we are in England, Scotland, Utopia, or Shangri-la, whether we are playing Stenhousemuir, Arsenal, Barca, or Milton Keynes Dons, I’ll be there and I’m sure just about everyone I know will be there.
We’ll still have dreams, they’ll just be different dreams.
I need those dreams and reveries, I love to discuss others hopes and ambitions, I would never invade someone else’s space and shatter their vision of the future and I don’t like people who do it us.
Again I say Paul surely deserves better.
Regards
Estadio
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Paul, interesting article.
However, being a little cynical, I find the proposed endgame hard to envisage due to the unsubstantiated nature of the article. Whenever I read any kind of article in any newspaper (be it political, scientific or sporting) I am always inclined to treat it as merely hypothesis unless it is clearly backed up. This article, I have to treat in the same way I am afraid.
What is indisputable is that interesting times are ahead for football as a business. The biggest club in the world changing hands in such circumstances guarantees that the new owner must have an agenda to maximize profits.
I agree that tv revenue is the most viable way to achieve this but I am not convinced that there is a need for him to set up a British league. I think that by securing the rights to set up Manchester United's own tv deal within the existing Premiership and Champions League structure, Glazer will achieve his aim.
Where Celtic may benefit is that they would then be able to secure their own tv deal within the existing Scottish football set up thus increasing revenue that way - although obviously not sufficiently to compete with the Manchester Uniteds of this world.
Alas, I think European domination will remain a dream unless we can unearth a batch of youngsters to eclipse the Giggs, Beckham, Scholes, Nevilles, Butt group that Sir Alex brought through for their big year in '99.
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Hail Hail Paul, great reading, it really was worth waiting for!! Excellent article and I for one salute your indefatigueability!! (I hope thats how you spell it!!)Keep up the good work, and if this is the standard of article you produce when childminding, then I look forward to the quality of article when you are able to give 100% attention. (Please do not pass this comment on to Mrs 67!!)
On another point wasn`t it excellent to see the welcome the King of Kings received at Jackie`s testimonial, it blew away the bad feeling left by the booing of him on his appearance for Barca at C.P. The man is a Celt through and through, and to think he received nearly as much booing as the likes of Andy Goram, Ian Durrant, and McCoist etc! Sunday gave me joy in my heart, it gave me Larsson.
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