 Tuesday, October 11, 2005
Celtic - The Premiership and EU Competition Commissioner Neelie Kroes
The English Premiership and the European Commission are locked in talks this week over the terms under which future league TV deals will be concluded.
The league has conceded that no single company should win exclusive rights to show live games after the current deal expires in 2007, reflecting an agreement they struck with the commission in 2003. They had planed to offer six packages of 23 games for tender this autumn.
The commission are keen to ensure that one broadcaster does not win rights to show more than 50% of live games, ensuring genuine competition among broadcasters.
EU Competition Commissioner, Neelie Kroes, believes the current suggestions by the league inadequately provide for this outcome – which might result in Sky winning all broadcast rights, just as they did with the current deal. She has promised a “statement of objections” with a legal basis that the league is operating a cartel with Sky.
If the league fails to comply with the Commissioner, they can mount a legal challenge, which is likely to take around two years to conclude, however failure in such a challenge would result in a fine of 10% of the league clubs total turnover.
The league, something of a cartel itself, would need to agree how such an eventuality would be underwritten before undertaking such a speculative venture.
Richard Scudamore, the league chief executive, is now on a tight deadline to conclude agreement with the Commission before starting negotiations with broadcasters if he is to deliver on his committment to the top clubs of having a deal in place within the next nine months.
Even if he delivers a deal within this time, accepting the terms of the European Commission will significantly reduce the value of the broadcast rights, plunging the loss making clubs – who make up the majority of the league – into further difficulty.
The league appears to be placing great store in being able to change the mind of the Commission. If the do not, the current league executive have no backup plan.
A showdown between the league and the European Commission has been inevitable since December 2003 when a fudged Memorandum of Understanding was reached.
This will provide those who are looking to change top-flight football on this island the first opportunity to do so. The above information is detailed elsewhere in the media and we know as fact. We also know that Glazer borrowed £540million, some of which at 17% interest to buy Manchester United, a debt that cannot be serviced with the current income level at Old Trafford, never mind a reduced one.
For Glazer, change is not only desirable, it is absolutely necessary.
Celtic are actively involved in discussions with the other major power brokers in British football to create a playing and commercial environment which would allow them to realise their potential.
Since first revealing here in December that Celtic would soon leave the SPL I have placed a couple of markers for us to watch, the first – and most important - being Malcolm Glazers takeover of Manchester United.
If the European Commission stick to their guns during the current negotiations another significant landmark will have been reached.
The project is on plan.
469 Comments:
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Fascinating stuff. I would presume you have had a word with one or two insiders before posting. Brian Quinn's comments were certainly suggestive.
Obviously ManU would be on board for a new SuperDuperLeague and probably Arsenal, Spurs, Chelsea, Newcastle and Liverpool, too. But who else?
And how would they fend off the objections of the likes of Wigan and West Brom?
I have also noted a steady drip-drip-drip of negative stories in the English media since the start of this EPL season, moaning about attendances, viewing figures and spectator interest being down. Coincidence?
Oh, and any sign of those MIH accounts?
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This just arrived from The Brother Walfrid memorial committee, an historic event, stick it in your diary.
Unveiling of Brother Walfrid Statue
Celtic Park, Glasgow.
November 5th 2005 at 2pm.
The Brother Walfrid memorial committee would like to extend an invitation to Celtic supporters everywhere to attend the above event. Admission to this event is free.
The committee have been raising funds towards the erection of a permanent memorial of our great clubs founder, Brother Walfrid. This venture has been financed entirely by donations from Celtic fans around the World. The memorial will serve to honour the man who in 1887/88 gave birth to our club: a club that has become a community institution and symbol to the Celtic family.
Andrew Kerins, the Marist Brother Walfrid from County Sligo Ireland, is the critical figure in the history of the Club. The legacy of Walfrid and his fellow founders of Celtic has meant that Irish immigrants and their offspring, Scotland’s largest immigrant community, as well as many others from a variety of backgrounds and identities, have shared in this cultural institution, been recipients of Celtic inspired charity and enjoyed and celebrated the distinctiveness and success that Celtic has brought to their lives.
The sculpture, by Glasgow sculptor Kate Robinson, will be unveiled outside of the main entrance to Celtic Park. In attendance will be church, political, sporting and community representatives from all over Scotland and beyond, reflecting the essential nature, distinctiveness as well as openness and symbolism of the Club. A full programme of events has been arranged from around 1:00pm onwards. The unveiling ceremony will begin at 2pm on Saturday November 5th.
Some of the lounges at Celtic Park will be open afterwards for those who would like to stay and enjoy some music over some food and a pint or two. Again, admission to the lounges will be free.
A celebration ceili will be held in the Kerrydale Suite (cost £15 per person) from 7:30PM onwards. Tickets for the ceili are very limited and have been offered, in the first instance, to the individuals who have attended the fundraisers over the last couple of years. The remainder will be offered on a first come first served basis by contacting Jim Divers at the Celtic supporters Association.
Further details from:
Walfrid Committee Chairperson, Eddie Toner 07939585663
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Still nothing on MIH JohnBhoy.
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If sky were to appeal a decesion in 9 months time then it would be a further 2 years being added on untill proceedings are finalsed.
If this were to happen but sky failed and your predictions come true, what would be a realistic time scale for a European League to be up and running?
And as the TV rights are absolutely essential to the Glazer master plan, will he be trying to influence negotiations to move them along?
Or will he be content waiting and biding his time?
Sean
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The cracks are slowly but surely starting to show, though when my head overrules my heart I still think its a long shot, there are just too many people to have to appease, there are the "smaller" clubs in the EPL then there is practically the entire championship! none of which will like Celtic or anyone else having a slice of their pie!
But I still remain optimistic, also is it worth noting Hearts resurgence? Is it merely a co-incidince that a millionaire buys into the club (surely not with the view to losing money) and begins talking of challenging the Old Firm by 2007(nearer to partytime)?
I believe this season has been a bit of a false dawn for Hearts but if they continue to improve at the same rate he could be on to something, then that leaves the question of Hearts wanting to join the party also??
Does Romanov know something we dont? Has he caught wind of the shake up in British football that seems iminent?
I know that if it was my money and I had to pick a team Hearts would be the cheapest option within striking distance of the "new premiership" apart from Leeds maybe but they were bought up last year too!!
Is this the "exciting times" ahead that was the talk of CP in the summer?
TBE.
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Afternoon all...
Paul67, I love the topic, just I dunno if it will ever happen. I cant ever see us getting into the EPL... I do think we get a lot of negative press but I also feel if there was more to what (hidden agenda, ha!) was going on someone would have said something, at least a murmour. But there aint been owt, just a few crazy journo's laughing at us!
I buy into the idea of the European Super League, eventually, but there would only be room for 18 - 20 teams, considering the travelling involved. I have no doubt Celtic and TFoD would be part of that setup, although I cant see more than 3 possibly 4 English clubs getting in, if/when it was to happen.. same as Spain/Italy & other strong leagues.. Germany/France 2/3? It doesnt really matter who and how many, just IF & WHEN!
Would love to see more about a European Super League, but im 22 and cant see us in the EPL in my lifetime.. : /
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Thanks for the update Paul67. Have been wondering about progress on this and it is good to know that things are still bubbling away.
Once the TV rights are made available to all broadcasters (as will inevitably happen), does this mean that individual clubs can bid for the TV rights of their own games? There will need to be some criteria for determining which broadcaster gets which game, and if it comes down to cherry picking the best games, then what is to stop MUTV bidding for all Man U games?
The current arrangement between Premiership clubs on TV rights would stop this action if it were to happen today, but I think the cartel is going to be severely tested by this, and I can't see it surviving.
Going to be an interesting year.
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Paul67
I fail to see the benfit in the EPL having put out to tender 50% of their matches to the networks will have on Celtic, after all we do not play in the EPL.Another point Shunzuke's signing has only benefitted the SPL through its deal with TWI to broadcast live footage to Asia.Is any of this extra money going into our coffers? I see our future as being able to negotiate our own TV deals and not as a collective unit eg SPL.Unfortunately the weak will flounder or not be able to continue as at present, and I dont want to subsidise Rangers Falkirk Hearts etc any more.Perhaps the NFL idea with franchises in each city across Europe will be the model of Footbal in Europe and not the cosy G14 or UEFA champions League model we have at present. I for one would welcome the change as long as we are in it, leaving behind this blighted parochial biased setup of present.
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Hi Paul,
An interesting and informative article that could hopefully be the first step on the road to an expanded premiership, it's articles like this that set your site apart from the rest add in the inspired lunacy of some of the posters and you have a winning combination. With the sad state of our sports media sources like this provide valuable information and are needed as a realistic balance. I can see some small problems with the idea, would teams in Europe be representing the UK or England, one I'm happy with the other not, the other is the promotion relegation issue for other clubs and where do they go to or come from, I'm not running the idea down and hope it comes to fruition I like you I think it's the future, I just hope the problems are ironed out before rather than after the commencement.
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I think it was stated on the site a few weeks back, poss months that all the clubs get a small slice of the money from the Asian TV deal(due to the our leagues petty TV deal). I think someone said about 35% of the money goes to the winner of the League at the end of the season...
I may be wrong, but im sure thats something how it went, anyone care to elaborate?
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thanks for keeping us up to date on this subject Paul. I'm quietly optimistic that we will be part of bigger plans in due course, however the thing that worries me is at the minute we haven't really heard a peep from Man Utd or any of the top 6 teams in England. We seem to be the only club making noises about this coming to fruition.
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Change is coming in football, it's inevitable.The most interesting part for me is that the media has chosen to ignore the current sad state of European football and debate how things must change. Kojo's Big "C" is begging to be picked up by some agressive young journalist. I guess the establishment(english especially) just dont want it discussed. "if we dont talk about it, it will go away".
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On this matter it is possible that the best strategy for us to take, is to step back and stay silent for a while. (They is the English, be it clubs, chairmen, fans, EFA whoever)They know who we are, they know all about us, they also know we are dying to get in there, but what they dont like, is us telling them how great we could make it. They look at the situation as if we think we have a devine right to be there, and this will make them dig their heels in further and further, each time the issue is mentioned, they will go on the defensive, and a few years down the line they would have defended it so much, they would look foolish to over turn that and welcome us.
We may be best letting them figure it out for themselves, as has been mentioned already the wheels are beginning to turn in that they are starting to realise attendances going down, real competition diminishing is like an ice cap melting in the Arctic, slowly at first........
Heres for hoping
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EdwardUrsus touched on something that has been at the back of my mind since you first raised this topic last year Paul. The issue of relegation to and from a British PremLeague is surely the biggest drawback. If we resign from the SPL to join the BPL, then finish in the bottom 3, where would we go next? Back to the SPL, into the Championship, or worse still the Welfare League??????
Does anyone have any thoughts on this?
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I honestly still don't see where we fit into this new Premiership picture.
Surely as this season's Champions League progresses Glazer will see the excitement (and cash) generated by Manchester United playing the likes of Juventus, Barcelona and Bayern Munich. Will he then not start thinking, "Why can't we play sides like these on a more regular basis rather than Portsmouth and Wigan?"
I'd love us to be playing against a higher class of opposition on a more regular basis but something doesn't seem right about the argument - The Premiership is getting boring and is not making enough money, call for Celtic and Rangers, problem solved.
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I think that we may not need to enter the EPL as uefa are calling for 16 team leagues why? so that they can do a deal with sky for a proper champions league with 20 teams playing each other once and the league winners will be true champs of europe. Eufa and sky and the clubs will make major monies and no team will play more games than theu do at the moment I.E. 30 league games 19 europe games and domestic cups.We can stay in Scotland and still get the money.
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on the subject of johnny foreigner...the u.e.f.a website covers in some detail the proposals for'club licensing'ie a set of criteria which would have to be met to enter uefa competition.
one of its provisos is that clubs 'do not spend more than they earn'.this suggests a prudent financial approach for the foreseeable future is the correct one,frustrating though it can be at times.
the website[uefa.com]illustrates the progress scottish football is making in this area with a good pic of jackie mcn being kicked on the head from behind by a flying uruk-hai
i'm now away to think about tony shepherd
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Paul,
Do you think it will be an EPL or a European League? Obviously, TV money is going to dictate much of what happens. Glazer will be demanding a structure that gives him (Man U) as much of that as he can get his hands on. As you say, he needs plenty. Here's hoping we get an invitation to join.
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Paul67
Isn’t it more likely that like Celtic the EPL is itself about to enter a period of financial downsizing as a result of less TV revenue. This scenario would be no bad thing for Celtic as it means we’d find it easier to compete with EPL teams on players’ salaries. We’ve probably missed the boom time of the EPL already.
Maybe Glazer has simply grossly overpaid for Man United ?
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Say the old deal was tendered for by Sky, BBC and ITV. BBC bid 65M, ITV 80M and Sky 100M. Sky won, but obviously BBC and ITV had a reasonable budget.
EU says no way, break it into 3 packages next time.
Now the bidders are Sky, BBC, ITV, Eurosport and Setanta.
For each package
BBC bid £28M
ITV bid £30M
Eurosport bid £30M
Setanta bid £35M
Sky bid £40M
ITV, Setanta and Sky are awarded a third each. Total £105M. £5M more than last time.
Just a thought that maybe it won't be financially catastrophic and the competition will tap into several budgets.
Not a subject I know much about so obvious corrections to rationale very welcome.
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MickWhelan, maybe you and P8ddy should get together and form this NEW EUFA group! :-)
TBE.
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To Bald Eagle. The driving force of UEFA and Sky is MONEY and not football and the best way to put dishes on roofs all over europe is to create a european league that can still be a champions league and make loads of dosh for eufa and sky and G14 or18 or20.It may seem far fetched to you but eagles do have there heads in the clouds
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Sorry Ego i mistook your ego for an eagle
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Peat Blog,
I can only see 3 options on relegation.
1. The whole of British football is restructured into, say, 4 leagues. Celtic & Rangers in the top league with e.g. Hearts, Hibs & Aberdeen in the 2nd division and so on. Promotion and relegation would work as normal.
2. Promotion and relegation depend on who ends up bottom of the top division. e.g. if 2 English sides and 1 Scottish side end up in the relegation zone then 2 English sides and 1 Scottish side get promoted from their relevant divisions. Possibly a bit unfair on a Scottish side that runs away with the SPL only to find it's 3 English sides getting relegated from the new UK Premiership.
3. There's no promotion or relegation. The top 16 TV audience generating sides play in a closed shop. After all it was promotion and relegation that let the likes of Wigan and Livingston into their top leagues and in the brave new world of loans to be repaid we cant have that.
Personally I think number 1 is the only viable option. Anyone else get any other options?
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One thing that’s worrying me here, there is a premise for this, it’s been done in France, Ireland, Australia, however if Glazer bought Man U with the intention of making money knowing the background to the television deals and the potential for some “easy” cash then surely he’d be thinking ahead to a full European league? Surely weekly matches against Barca, Munich, Madrid etc would be worth more than Liverpool, Celtic, Bolton? Just a thought but would he not go for maximum profit?
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Peat Blog
1. Dunfermline v. Bristol Rovers in Division 4 in the middle of winter ? Can't see it.
2. Play-off to decide ?
3. In the current EPL the relagation battle is more exciting than the battle for the title.
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Once European matches become League matches they lose the 'special' feeling currently attached to them. Those European nights at Celtic Park would be lost forever.
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Sean, Glazer will give the current negotiations time to fail before moving.
The Bald Ego, the smaller clubs will not have to be appeased. If the talks fail it will force the hand of the big clubs. Forget about a voting majority being needed, this one will not go to the vote.
As far as Romanov at Hearts goes, he will not be invited south. Europe is a different matter, though.
Seany Bhoy, yes there are those who will mock this, but the evidence is only starting to be revealed, and most journalists have not done enough work to be onto the story.
Try finding out how Glazer will be able to repay his borrowings. Celtic Quick News is the only outlet you will see this reported, everyone else is saying “this cannot be repaid” or words to that effect.
The Glazer deal is the one thing we know as fact today which indicates that a business plan exists that will change the income stream beyond all recognition.
Brian74, interesting point. The big English clubs want and need their own TV rights, just as the Spanish and Italian clubs have. This is the only way Glazer will be able to afford his repayments.
Dessybhoy, this problem will precipitate the break up of the existing league arrangement in England. The big clubs will then design a league that allows them to achieve their potential – see me previous posts on the matter.
Edward, relegation will be dealt with by setting a high tariff on league entry – stadiums with Uefa 4 Star rating to being with. This is what the SPL done. Europe is another question; there are significant changes in the offing here, don’t try to fit this proposition into the existing European model, the model is set for change again.
VargasShampoo, again, look at what has happened in England. Look at the Glazer debt and look for anyone trying to explain his income stream.
Danny, Manchester United, Newcastle, Chelsea and Arsenal are all keen on changes to the EPL steup. Celtic going south is just a product of the change, not the purpose of the change.
Thanks Edward.
Martinobhoy, you have missed the point. Celtic and Rangers are not the solution, getting rid of games against Wigan et al is the solution. Celtic and Rangers just happen to have the box office needed to help create the biggest sports IP rights in world football.
Mickwhelan, the new EPL will have no more than 16 teams – including two from Scotland.
Parkheadcomesalford, the new EPL will happen first. Progress towards a midweek European League is being made and will happen in due course.
Peat Blog, is we move to the English league and are relegated, we are relegated to their lower divisions.
For important background on this story take a look back at this article, which many people seem to have missed Premiership Plans for America, Asia, Celtic, Rangers and how Glazer will deliver
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Paul great post just going for my tea break so will have a decent read and post my thoughts later.
Anyway new post on www.thelordofthewing.blogspot.com
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I feel like a lone voice in the wilderness every time this subject is raised. Does nobody on this board care about the political implications of joining an English league?
We now have a devolved parliament; hopefully (for me anyway) the first step towards independence; yet here we are trying to find ways to get crumbs from the English table. What next? Playing ‘’God Save The Queen’ after matches – well we’ll be a ‘British team after all.
A Celtic team that is successful in Europe on a regular basis and practices good ‘asset management’ will surely generate enough income to survive and prosper.
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Personally I see no major restructuring being needed if Celtic and them were to move to England. There is already precedent for it in Cardiff and Swansea. If one of these clubs and I know its a big if were to qualify or win the EPL then they would represent the EPL in europe, even though both are situated in Wales.
My own preference however would be for a European league set up.
One day you had the Well and the Dunnypars coming to Paradise the next Madrid, Barca, Milan, Man u etc, etc. Would we still complain fickle lot that we are lol.
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MickWhelan I think you missed the point of my post but we wont dwell on the trivial, p8ddy should 'get it' though. EUFA - UEFA??
Paul67 Will the overlooking of a vote not lead to a lot of messy legal wranglings from Clubs who see themselves as worthy etc?
On Romanov I was thinking more along the lines of Martinobhoy's option 1, a promotion and relegation open to everyone. If/when Celtic and Rangers leave the SPL Hearts will/should walk it and either get them into a position where they will go straight into European competition of the "Super League".
My point was that if Romanov see's Hearts as a good investment then he obviously knows that these said changes are afoot.
TBE.
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To all those who have already read the article to which Paul just referred I hope you'll realise that where I'm talking about per season revenue I actually meant revenue over the contract duration. My Kingdom for an edit button :)
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Agree and disagree with you on this one Timmy7.
Agree with your points regarding joining the English league and being referred to as an English club.
But the playing of GSTQ will never happen in the grounds of PH, so don't worry about that sort of thing my friend.
As the painting boys off chewin' the fat would say, "You've taken that too far!"
However where I disagree with you is regarding us generating the kind of money we'd require to challenge in Europe on an annual basis.
I mean we've had a good few years of qualifying for various stages of the two European competitions and we still cannot compete with the likes of Bolton, Birmingham and Everton on the spending front.
I think this point alone shows why it would be so beneficial for Celtic to get into this league.
Fair point on the poor asset management but this along with European money would never compete with the EPL spending power.
So basically IMHO we need the type of money that a league like the Premiership generates, so we must be actively working towards this goal.
/Bishop B
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If we accept Liverpool, Chelsea and Arsenal will be crucial players in helping Glazer take his Man U out of the current set up then what is the scenario for Man U if these three clubs take a look at Paul's article, do the sums and say, "stuff it, let's persevere with a current EPL deal for 3 more years" just to watch Man U meltdown.
Unlikely, but poker of the highest order being set up.
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Timmy7
We are already a "British club" and at the end of the day we will still be a Scottish club competing in the English league in the same way that Swansea, Cardiff and Wrexham are Welsh clubs. They don't play God save the Queen after games do they???
If you want us to continue in the parochial environs of the SPL and earn accordingly then fine but don't have a go at the club for trying to get us to a place where we all want to be, ie competing on the big stage with top quality players gracing Celtic Park each week.
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Paul
I'd like to think I didn't miss the point but probably didn't express myself clearlly enough. I actually read the article
"Premiership plans for America, Asia, Celtic, Rangers and how Glazer will deliver" before I posted.
My point was yes I agree that Glazer will be looking to get rid of games against the likes of Portsmouth and Wigan but why wont he look to be replacing it with games against Juventus and Barcelona rather than Celtic and Rangers.
If Manchester United get into the quarter finals of this season's Champions League and play Real Madrid, Glazer is going to see a 67,000 crowd paying top dollar (with millions more watching on television) and a magnificent atmosphere generated. Will he then not think "Glasgow who? This is the kind of team I want here on a regular basis."
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Why not play 'God save the queen'?
The Sex pistols were great;)
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Prefer The Queen is dead by the Smiths myself.
Sorry everyone.
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Well said Bambi Celtic are one of the few clubs in Britain if not Europe that has huge potential. Not even the big 6 in EPL can guarentee sell outs for their home games, Celtic have the facilities to compete with the best in Europe and the only dead weight we are carrying is the rest of the SPL. So for Celtic not to at least try and escape the SPL would be a criminal waste of our facilities, our money, Fergus' time and money along with everything we have achieved in the last 12 years!! We will be left behind by the more ambitious clubs in Europe who have less to lose than us. Timmy7Its time to put aside your grievances and sieze the biggest opportunity that will ever come our way.
Celtic will always be OUR club so in a way its neither Scottish, Irish, English nor anything else, you try telling Singapore Celt or SanFranTic and all the rest of our global tims its not their club too.
As I heard it put the other day "Celtic are not a great team with great fans, but great fans with a great team"
TBE.
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Apologies Martinobhoy if I picked you up wrong. What if Glazer had Celtic on Saturday and Juventus on Wednesday?
The Euro league is on its own gestation period. What Glazer and his other EPL ‘Princes’’ will do is ensure that their domestic league blows every other league off the planet in its ability to generate resources.
They are keen on a Euro league, but do not like the way their teams seem to lose so often.
If our own Prince plays his hand correctly, Celtic will become one of the very biggest clubs in Europe – bigger than Juventus or Barca in my opinion.
BlantyreKev, Poker yes, but you forget, poker is about making money. Arsenal et al share this in common with Glazer.
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Bambi there are people amongst our support that barely think we’re Scottish never mind British. It’s not ‘parochial’ to remain in our own country. We ARE a Scottish team we belong in the Scottish league
The ‘big’ stage is Europe; in the form of the CL. We’ve been there but we’ve not maximised the potential returns and that is what we should be trying to do. Instead we try to sell this ‘Old Firm’ novelty act to England to draw out the dwindling interest in their product. What about ditching TFOD as business partners? Has that been investigated properly, if at all? It seems to me that moving to England is plan A and there is no plan B.
We are in danger of becoming the new ‘parcel of rogues’ selling out our nation.
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Timmy 7 - we will always be a Scottish Club. Your argument about us losing identity through joining the EPL is no different to a scots person moving south/abroad to start a new life - so i don't see where your going with that one.
There's no harm in having patriotic feelings & the history of the club will never be dismissed, but once you start that political patter you'll be eating Mince & Tatties every night with a 'see you jimmy hat' on
In any case - the day we were forced to put numbers on the back of the hoops by UEFA was the start of the demise.
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Timmy7,
I see where you are coming from but ask yourself who you would rather see at CP every week, Man Utd, Chelsea etc or Livingston and Dundee Utd. Would you rather we had a chance of signing TOP quality players or would you rather try to sign Paul Hartley etc? Ideally a European league would be my 1st choice but why not use the EPL as a starting point. I agree with Paul to that extent that once we are on a level playing field with the EPL clubs then the rest of Europe will realise how big we really are and we can hopefully compete regularly at the top table again.
Don't forget that when we won in 67 there was still a reasonably level playing field around Europe compared to the current situation.
We either stagnate in the small pool or swim with the big fish in the big pool. (Like that one Kojo?)
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The Bald Ego...
Damn your eyes...and your ability to spell UEFA consistantly! :-D
I got the reference the first time!
:-)
/p
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Paul,
how can celtic become bigger than the team's you mention when we have no domestic TV audience to speak of. Regardless of any future league make up, domestic TV audience will play a large part in determiining the slice of broadcasting cake (in the same way as chap league at moment).
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Ayrshirecelt; because if we join the EPL the whole of Britain will be our domestic TV audience - not to mention Ireland.
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This path is the ONLY way forward for Celtic. The alternative of remaining status quo in a league whose income streams have decreased and will continue to decrease will see Celtic decline.
If we can't afford to pay the best players the wages they can command then the best players will choose somewhere else to play. Inevitably this will lead to a general decline in our ability to compete at European level.
Should we follow this path to a "Premiership Equivalent", we may well need to forego European competition from time to time, but if Man Utd, Arsenal, Liverpool, Newcastle, Chelsea, Tottenham et al are the replacement entertainment turns lined up I think we can live with Celta Vigo, Stuttgart, Basle, Rosenberg and the likes not coming to visit every year.
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But is it not likely that in a new EPL the money will be split according to audience potential. In an English league would we not be near the bottom of the hand out table due to our smaller catchment
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Paul67 - I don't think Eddie Toner will thank you for posting his phone number on an the site.
I'm sure that there are some numptys out there that would love to start annoying him with 'inappropriate' calls and text messages.
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Ayrshire Celt,
I'm not sure why you think we'd have a smaller catchment? Scotland plus Ireland plus every major city in England with CSCs plus the US, Canada etc...with the possible exception of Man U with it's Far East market, there isn't a club in Britain close to us in terms of catchment?
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Ayrshirecelt,
The ideal would be a situation where we are invited to play in a sixteen team league consisting of the 14 top clubs in England with Celtic and Rangers making up the numbers. Each of those teams would then own their individual TV rights and have the facility to sell those for as much as they could possible achieve for them.
This would certainly result in an increase in media income compared to what we currently receive. The question will be just how much more.
It seems almost certain that Glazer cannot afford any other situation to arise if he wants to pay off the debts he incurred with his takeover of ManU.
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Hi there Paul
Not posted in a while, but Martinobhoy, I can see where your coming from with reference to teams like Juventus, Real Madrid, or Barcelona. They are after all the recognised 'Glamour' clubs of Europe.
But Glazer is also supposed to be a hard headed businessman. Do you not think he just might have noticed around 80,000 Celtic fans in Seville in 2003. Or the fact that Celtic regularly take over 10,000 fans to friendly games in England
Glazer couldn't care less if Old Trafford is filled by home, or away fans. Just so long as it is filled.
Celtic fans have proved time, and time agin, they will follow the club no matter where it they are playing.
To the money men, that's all that counts
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Varga, it’s a bit like the advert. If you don’t ‘do’ politics there’s not much you do do (a twoser in CQN parlance)
To answer your question, Bambi, I would rather see us playing strong Scottish teams at the weekend and the cream of Europe on Wednesday nights.
The money swilling around football at the moment is obscene but at least there are signs that sanity is beginning to come into things now.
Marzepans – why do we have to include TFOD in everything we do? Is it another symptom of the ‘we’re not big enough to go it
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Ayrshirecelt, I have a completely different view of the potential of Celtic than you.
Celtic sell around 57,000 tickets for games against teams from towns with smaller populations. I believe our potential to sell tickets and attract a TV audience would compare favourably with virtually anyone in England if we were in the EPL.
Minesastella, Eddie sent me the text for publication.
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U2, surely it will depend on how attractive we are to an english audience: that has yet to be determined. The scots irish and canadian us and aus audiences are currently pretty insignificant to broadcasters. Any far east audience is currently wishful thinking and dependent on us keeping top far east players on our books. There is no guarantee that we will get top $ in any new EPL. POtentialy if invited we could be at the bottom of the heap and when you thro into the hat even less of a guarantee of champ league $ where doe sthat leave us?
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Ayreshire Celt,
Our catchment area is the whole of the UK and Ireland, only Man Utd and Liverpool could reasonably claim that.
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Paul67 - give us a guesstimate as to what season would see us kick off in the EPL.
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Paul67 - okay - it was just in case it was added inadvertently.
Looks like a great post. I'll print then read and digest on the way home on the train.
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Timmy7,
Fair enough but how are these teams going to get stronger??
They have tried spending money, that didn't work, they have tried rearing their own, that didnh't work. Clubs with gates of 10,000 or less are never going to be strong enough to compete with either ourselves or the other lot. Romanov is making a decent fist of it at the mo but there ain't too many Romanov's out there and what sort of mess will they be in when he takes the property revenue after Tynecastle is sold??
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Timmy7,
I include them because they are the only other club in Scotland with the standard of facilities and size of support that would be attractive in the event of a new 16 team British League. The smaller clubs in England hold back the larger, albeit on a different sclae than can be said of Scotland. Celtic and Rangers would be more attractive alternatives due to our support and stadium. If we could achieve the move without Rangers then I'd be even happier about the situation but the criteria that make it possible for us also makes it possible for them.
Ayshirecelt,
If the clubs own their respective TV rights then I don't see how it depends on how attractive we are to an English market. Sure, the English market will be an important one but £1 from England in the new setup will be £1 more than we get currently.
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Paul - Cheers for the apology, much appreciated. I think we are both in agreement as to what Glazer is looking to achieve but maybe I have reservations on how he is going to try to achieve it. I have a nagging doubt that he wont be thinking 14 EPL teams plus Celtic and Rangers although I'd be delighted to be proved wrong.
For instance we all know how massive Celtic are (as Bhoyinengland has pointed out) with Seville and our travelling support but I do worry that doesn't ring any bells with the current EPL chairmen. Do we know for a fact that Glazer is well aware of the potential of Celtic and wants us to join the party or are we assuming that he must ask us?
I agree that we have the potential to be as big as Juventus but I wonder if we'll ever get the chance to prove it.
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Paul
I totally agree with you on this about the potential of Celtic, both UK-wide and internationally.
On saturday I was in Carnaby St in London with my bro and visited Soccer Scene. What is on the outside of the store window?
A 6ft transfer of our Lenny advertising the Hoops availability. Inside was a decent enough selection of our tops and merchandise etc. and I watched many people from massively different backgrounds and nationalities buying our merchandise while I was in. Incidently there was not a lot of Rangers, or anyone else bar the big 3 EPL clubs, gear available in comparison.
In Rugby where i live, there is a Supporters Club, I organised tickets for the local GAA team for a game last year, the interest in the Hoops down here is massive since I moved back here. If only many of you could have seen the scene in Quigleys on a big European night, the place is mobbed! I am sure that this scenario is repeated throughout the rest of England and Wales.
Everywhere around the world I have gone I have met numerous Hoops (Brisbane, Melbourne and even Osaka airport). The support for our club is global and the potential for our club second to none.
Please folks remember this club is huge. While I feel strongly that much can be done to improve the marketing and brand management of Celtic still, I still get the impression from time to time that Celtic are considered by some fans to be a biggish club in Scotland but small in comparison to the EPL. The demand for Celtic is here! Now! It just needs to be tapped.
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Thanks for your reply Paul67... I look forward to how the situation develops.
martinobhoy...
Dont you think that Celtic ARE a big attraction? I do, and im sure with the revenue generated from a European Super League/new EPL would make us one of the mest attractive teams on the planet... what with all the support all over the world for our beloved team, our true potential would be unleashed.
Case of, look out world, here comes The Faithful.
KTF!
Hail! Hail!
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Not mest most*
Have to agree on the need for an edit button!
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Timmy 7 - I do politics & rational debate, but sorry to say i'm not very patriotic at all. I think a major reason for this is the condascending pipe we are fed from SNP Party political broadcasts, Braveheart, Sean Connery, Greggs The Bakers, Rabbie Burns, Scotch 'n' Wry, Johnny Beattie, Film stars wearing kilts, Ally Bain & Friends, Dean park, people going to Edinburgh at the bells, Scotland Today, The Daily Record, Margo MacDonald, Sheila McDonald, Kirsty Wark, The Barras, Edinburgh's Mayor, Haggis, Colin Hendry's face, Ashton Lane & Wet Wet Wet
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To discuss being bottom of the heap or otherwise we'd need to know who was in the heap.
If we assume it's the top 12 to 16 from the Premiership I really can't get my abacus to give me an answer that puts us bottom.
Everton, Villa, Tottenham, Charlton, Blackburn - what fan base would be willing to pay in comparison to ours? Even Arsenal, Man City, Newcastle with large, passionate support, would not generate the levels of pay-per-view revenue (in my view) than Celtic. Even more Celts than normal around the world would pay to see us compete with these teams.
We may not numero uno (immediately), but I see us easily in the top quartile. I my vision of the Celtic diaspora and the part they would play is different to yours. And I wasn't even including the new potentials Naka and Du Wei may bring....
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Sir Paul, and my Amiga...Bambi.
Paul my old Paladin, thanks.
The Boss was referring to Malcolm's New Approach.... in one of his last submissions.
I suppose you cottoned.
Just as Theseus unwound the Guiding Thread, in the way IN and therefore had a built-in escape path, on the WAY OUT,....... So our friend Malcolm has constructed his strategy.
Malcolm,has been described as the Epitome of the Raider's Raider.
He always has a "Get out Gaol Card",nestling somewhere in his luggage.
The Boss has supreme confidence in his Financial Finagling (That is Malcolm...Oh! Check that....... It fits for the Boss as well......... MMM!).
As you have astutely posited Malcolm is the, Llave de Puerto,to Celtic's EPL admittance.
I am supremely confident that Celtic will use it to unlock the Treasure House.
Ah!The Fair Bambi!~~~~~~~~~~
Loverly, Loverly,my dear.
I like it.
Can I use it?
You Bet!
Buttah! Pure ee eeee Buttah!
Hail to Celtic!
Kojo.
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Varga, I could argue this point with you all day; it saddens me when Scots are amongst the most anti-Scottish people there are (not that I’m disagreeing with all of you list although Greggs is an English company, I believe) But this is not the place. Just hope that I don’t buttonhole you at the next CQN Open.
Bambi, my theory on the decline of Scottish football opens a whole new can of worms – think striking teachers and a lost generation of players.
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Jas, nothing can happen until 2007, though 2008 is a more realistic early date. There is still lots to do, but the train is very surely moving (to borrow an old analogy).
I always pay attention Kojo! Keep your paddle handy the good ship is leaving port.
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Martinobhoy-
The Glazers were at both Celtic v Manchester United games played in Seattle 2003and2004.
They would have noticed the majority of the crowd were Celtic supporters in both the games.
Dontbrattbakk-
Owen Archdeacon ?
Tony Shepherd ?
The reason your girlfriend isn,t talking to you is because she probably thinks you are gay....
:)
noel.
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noel-it's not that i'm gay,it's just that i yearn for a simpler life;the bhoys of summer!
we're a club who are regarded as being on the side of the angels,but we're in cahoots with coors and nike,not usually regarded as the most enlightened of employers...the stadium name might raise a few bob..
we should get into a euroleague,but will there be safeguards that the 'celtic franchise'can't be sold and moved to another city-mr.glazer has a background in u.s. sports,where such things are not unknown,and the devotion of the fans has not been enough to stop it happening
this is mildly depressing so on the way home i shall think of keira knightley..and john halpin..but not together
dbia
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Keira Knightley....
mmmmmmmm........
nice.....
noel.
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Hi all
This suggested move to another league,IMO it is worthy of noting that Celtic not Rangers are the team invited to play testimonials in Englang, and reinforced by our reputation gained in recent Euro games. So ditch this Old Firm tag of somekind of mutual benefit society look after ourselves who cares about them. They IMO have much credibilty/evidence of appropriate behaviour to gain before they can go outwith the Scottish boundaries without causing mayhem.
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