 Tuesday, November 22, 2005
Birkbecks and Grant Thornton report Growing Crisis in Premiership
The ‘State of the Game 2005’ report by Birkbeck’s Football Governance Research Centre and accountants Grant Thornton has thrown up the interesting revelation that twelve of the twenty English Premiership clubs would prefer a more even distribution of TV income within the league.
Birkbeck's director, Professor Christine Oughton, said, "The game is at a cross-roads. "The Premiership is experiencing a growing crisis with stagnant attendances and a lack of a competitive balance."
Joe McLean, of Grant Thornton said, "More clubs want a fairer distribution of TV revenues, because the current financial model upon which the game is based is too risky for proper long-term planning."
There is, of course, no chance of the larger clubs agreeing to a more equitable distribution of TV income, in fact, quite the opposite.
Clubs like Manchester United, Arsenal, Liverpool and Chelsea create the value in the TV contracts by paying for top players.
While most eyes have been on the negotiations between the European Commission and the Premiership over broadcast rights, ownership of these rights remains the key issue.
Manchester United, Liverpool, Arsenal and Newcastle each need to increase their income to meet future commitments, and securing their own TV rights remains the most likely source of new revenue.
When Birbeck’s and Grant Thornton are throwing around phrases like “growing crisis with stagnant attendances” and “because the current financial model ….. is too risky for proper long-term planning”, you can be sure that the ‘pack-ice’ of league stability is under threat.
I (patiently) await Mr Glazers move with interest.
669 Comments:
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Caught us cold there, Paul
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me first?
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anything for 3rd
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What Celtic are hoping for here is that the smaller English clubs will begin to make some empty threats to the bigger clubs. Then the split will emerge.
From there, it's a case of: Here are the terms. Accept them, and you're in. If not, hit da road.
Hopefully, by then Celtic will be miles in front of the rest of the SPL. My dearest wish would be to leave them behind (sorry, Ed).
With Murray steering Rangers towards oblivion, I may yet get my wish.
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Geez Paul - Gonnae give me a break? Just about every time I post you start a new thread! Anyway although it is not related to the current thread I thought CQNers might be interested in a neutral point of view from Saturday's game:
As others see us:
Just back in from a fantastic weekend in Tuscany and have spent the evening catching up on the posts.
Anyway I watched the game with a couple of neutral Italians and their view was that they were surprised by the intelligence in Celtic's play (they were expecting 90 mph stuff) but that in the first half a decent European team would have scored 1 or 2 against us. They also thought Nakamura's booking was a joke (considering Steven Thompson wasn't booked) and that it was a referee trying to balance out the bookings in a derby match to show that he had not favoured either side. My Italian friends also thought we should have had a penalty at the end when Hartson was pulled down.
And the one player they raved about? Guys who watch the likes of Totti, Shevchenko and Del Piero on their televisions every week?
Aiden McGeady.
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Young Aidens a major talent of that I have no doubt, but I always feared that he'd end up with that old curse of the winger and fall out the game. Well impressed on Saturday, the bhoy seems to have filled out a bit and has more of an edge about him than I had previously seen, whether thats down to the goading that the lads suffered over his international committments, who knows, but he's certainly no Regi Blinkered!
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Hi Paul,
I know this has probably been asked before, but if invited into another league, do teams have any legal obligation to the SPL in terms of notice or financial compensation in lieu of notice? Sorry the rest of my post is off topic but it's in answer to some late postings on the last thread.
Kojo 11.44 :- Intelligent advice is always welcome and one of the attractions this site holds for me is the variety of outlooks. While I wouldn't, or more probably couldn't use the same words as you sadly I find nothing I can disagree with in the points you make, Like any good paper there is nothing in it that can't be backed by fact.
PeatBlog 12.09 I have to agree on your point referring to the differing reputations involved with Mr Smith and Mr O'Neil, apart from the European run I would say that Mr O'Neil rebuilt a bad team, Mr Smith took over an established team. Strangely I feel they both had one fault in common, they held on to a team a year too long.
Noel 90 :- A strange way of thinking on it lol, in my lifetime I think I would go for Mr D White
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congratulations to big Johnbhoy-
1st post-well done sir.
I,m just reposting 'gavilguys post from the last thread because it does,nt deserve to be missed.
David Murray
I met a traveller in the Jock Stein Stand
Who said -- "two vast and trunkless legs of stone
Stand in Edmiston Drive ... near them, on the sand,
Half sunk a shattered visage lies, whose frown,
And wrinkled lips, and sneer of cold command,
Tell that its sculptor well those passions read
Which yet survive, stamped on these lifeless things,
The hand that mocked them, and the heart that fed;
And on the pedestal these words appear:
My name is David Murray, King of Spin,
Look on my Works ye Mighty, and despair!
Nothing beside remains. Round the decay
Of that colossal Wreck, boundless and bare
The lone and level sands stretch far away." --
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To those who have recently pointed out that the recent victories against Rangers have been somewhat hollow or empty compared to other victories. I just want to say this: I get great satisfaction from knowing how the Rangers supports are feeling. The chariman, players and staff too.
My brother mentioned to me on Saturday how he feels a greater 'low' after being beaten by them than a 'high' when we are victorious. I told him to imagine how they are feeling right now and he admitted that it helped him enjoy it more.
I may been seen as a masochist but just to quote Barry Ferguson today: "This is the lowest time of my football career. I have never felt more down than this." Now, don't that make you feel good?!
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Interesting piece which confirms many views expressed here a few weeks ago about falling attendances in the EPL. They are at at a crossroads yes...But which road will be travelled...?
I think where we will be in three to five years will be is the hands of the ghods...No..not under the SFA for sure...Personally I view the theatre of Europe as more likely than the EPL...I have posted before about the current challenge to Uefa (& ergo FIFA) in the European Courts by the G14...A challenge which has the potential to be an earthquake under Uefa and make Bosman look like a parking ticket...
Regarding Mr Glazer....There is another factor which should be considered...Pull back for wider context...The future of the US economy....I know..I know...It is an expensive hypothesis...but he might just be flitting! The future is the US of Europe and the Euro...( Oh and of course China)...not the pound and the dollar....That is how is see it anyway...
Celtic are on course for being perfectly positioned to take advantage of whatever the ghods throw up over the next three to five years....The wafer thin mint is perfectly positioned to take advantage of what the Scottish media throw up over the next three to five weeks...
Interesting times indeed...
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Teddy Bear From previous thread. Things are moving too fast for the elderly.
Teddy
I find it strange that Davy White is bottom of your list, when you have John Greig as an ex manager.
I well remember a 1968 game at CP where a D White side took us apart winning 4-2. In fact I think the only time we beat you that 68 69 season was in the cup final. Unfortunately I don't think Davie survived that defeat.
pjbhoynyc
My memory of the latest USA GDP is that it is rising at around 3.5% per annum, considerably better than european growth with the possible exception of the Irish Republic. I believe Glazer saw a worldwide brand and thought he could cash in and make big bucks. He seems to have underestimated the resistance to change things on the european front and the interference of various european regulatory bodies who do not follow the lasissez faire principles of large corporations here in the land of the free.
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The EPL is simply getting to the point where the cream has risen and won't sink. In any competition given current models in practice with regard to money and players this is inevitable.
The most competitive and viable model is that of the US and their sports, particularly the NFL. Any European league would inevitably become stagnant also unless structured as such. Competition law would simply have to be put to one side.
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Sir Paul,
As you darn well know, the BOSS has always MAINTAINED, that the Television RIGHTS of A SOCCER CLUB.... are , well...... JUST THAT!
They should be as JEALOUSLY GUARDED, just the same as INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY....
That being said.... It follows that TELEVISION RIGHTS SHOULD BE...... Individually NEGOTIATED! not.... EN MASSE!
GRANT UNTO CAESAR what is CAESAR'S!
Mr. GLAZER will present these facts, in his attack on the PRESENT TELEVISION DISTRIBUTION SYSTE,........
Which,as every body knows..... is BADLY DISTORTED....in that CLUBS, who have very little T.V. DRAWING POWER, are OBSCENELY REWARDED,at the EXPENSE of the TRUE BENEFICIARIES OF THE TELEVISION ADVERTISING LARGESS......The Clubs with a large Public Following!
Mr.GLAZER and by EXTENSION......TEAMS that ATTRACT THE BULK of the TELEVISION VIEWERS, will ULTIMATELY be the POWER BROKERS in Future TELEVISION RIGHTS.
There is no room in the MODERN AGE for SITUATIONS where the TAIL is WAGGING the DOG.....as what is really......in a NUTSHELL happening, today!
Celtic, by right of its GLOBAL and INTRA- National Popularity, will be obviously a very welcome participant in The COMING BATTLE over T.V. RIGHTS.
In Mr.GLAZER, CELTIC will find A very INFLUENTIAL ALLY, in the new more fair proposals,for the T.V. ADVERTISING POUNDS.
Celtic, by DINT of their Vast PUBLIC DRAWING POWER..... will be a very welcome addition to the coming NEW SOCCER LEAGUE STRUCTURE....
It is COMING.....MAKE NO MISTAKE ABOUT THAT~
And GLASGOW CELTIC WILL BE THERE!
Hail! Hail!
Kojo.
And I am going to.....
The BROWN DERBY.
G'NITE!
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Channel 67 TV2 showing the CL Final. Inter have just scored from a penalty, but I have a good feeling about the eventual outcome.
We shall not be moved ringing out loudly. Celtic attacking constantly. Updates to follow.
Dementia can't dim the memories
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Question....if a player was racially abused at a game in Scotland, would the SFA investigate?
Football Association officials will write to both Tottenham and West Ham asking for their observations concerning the nature of the chants directed towards Mido in Sunday's clash.
The player, who scored Spurs' only goal in a 1-1 draw against the Hammers on Sunday, was racially taunted by sections of the visiting support.
An official FA spokesman said: "We want to build up a complete picture of events and how disturbing they might have been. We need to see what the clubs have to say about them."
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Hi there
For years, I have had to endure the comment that the SPL is just a 2 horse race. Celtic, and Rankers.
Oh how the times have changed. I can now quip that the EPL is simply a one horse race. Chelsea. Not that I like Chelsea. I can't stand them.
On the growing division within the EPL though, it does make me wonder if the top teams like Chelsea, Man Utd, Liverpool really have the EPL in their future.
Whose to say that they aren't looking towards a European league of some description. The EPL as it stands, is suffering massive losses in attendance. The next TV deal will probably be worth less than the current one.
If you are a certain Mr Abramovich, or Mr Glazer, you ain't in football for the love of the sport. It's money, money, money.
Ultimately, the television companies will be looking to maximze their profits. I'm not saying that a European league will hapen in the next 5 minutes, or even the next 5 years. But you can't help get the feeling that this is where football may be heading.
If that's the case, Celtic should be banging on the right doors, right now.
I heard an English football commentator make the comment the other day that Celtic are probably on a par with Blackburn in terms of playing ability. I'd like to think we are at least at that level, if not a wee bit better. However, if we had the same sort of television revenue that Blackburn enjoy, can you imagine the buying capacity we would have? We would be way ahead of the Blackburns of this world.
There has been a lot of debate about the Old Firm joining the EPL. Wether English clubs would welcome us. And prats like Paul Merson (possibly the former Arsenal, and Aston Villa player) writing for a certain Midlands based website who can't understand what Celtic would gain from such a move - He was never the sharpest tool in the box. But it does make me wonder if the future is really the EPL, or we should be looking even further up the food chain.
Hail Hail
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Hi there all,
Firstly could I just thank all of you for your good wishes and acknowledgements following my unfortunate encounter on Saturday evening.
The bruises are healing well and to be honest have lent a certain pioneering ruggedness to my features which has brought with it a completely unexpected side effect and benefit.
Unable to tend to my once a fine dark strong growth of manly beard, it has quickly exploded and matted in dry blood leaving me as a shocking grey, wild faced, mad-eyed Northern Hemispheric cousin of the Tasmanian Devil.
The benefit of this came home to roost today when on offering a few bob to one of Glasgow’s fastest expanding industrial force – the beggar – my largesse was rejected and I was told to hold on to my cash with the words:
‘yer obviously mair in need o’ it than ah um big man
My mouth and cheeks are still aching a bit, but as my sainted Mother used to repeatedly tell me
“Where there’s no sense, there’s no feeling”
and anyway that is probably less from my wee bit of trouble and much more from the strain of a permanently set grin!
I suppose that it was inevitable that, introspective and self critical as we are as a support we would eventually get round to doubting our own strengths as footballing force and pessimistically view our successes in terms of others failings!
Some of us will take the optimistic view that in fact Rangers are not as intrinsically bad as some think, but rather that we have significantly improved along with the capabilities organisation, style, and adventure of a number of other clubs in Scotland.Hearts, Hibs, Kilmarnock, Motherwell, and Falkirk spring immediately to mind.
Others will take the pessimistic view that while we have undoubtedly improved since that stark July evening and our scalding experience of a naïve tactics, confusion of personnel, and wasted opportunities and possession, we are no more than scraping our way back to a basecamp of ambition where the slopes of the European challenge adopt the magnitude of a man scaling Everest dressed in jeans trainers, using a Lonely Planet guide to the Himalayas!
The pendulum of my own emotions tends towards the optimistic, but I will not argue too vehemently with the champions of the more pessimistic camp, purely because real hard evidence to the bolster either wing of the debate is in extremely short supply.
The problem that we as a support and GS and the players as a team have, is how do we get the evidence, how do we breed the confidence, and how do we bridge the gap between the potential that we might only be leaders of a pack of fairly mangy mongrels and the desire that we can strut our stuff in a Crufts parade of European Pedigree.
Surely what we must avoid is the scenario whereby we win the League, but only then start the learning curve of how to play home and away against the latter day Johnny come lately pretenders to the throne of Celtic ascendancy! (OK OK That may have been a bit over the top and supremacist, but once I started typing I found myself and my mind being suffused with a Bush and Blair hallucinatory delusion of grandeur – My god they are dangerous but that’s for another time and another blog)!
Remember our previous attempts to win or even get a point away; remember our confusion on how to play Ajax at home after winning 3-1 out there; remember our profligacy at Anderlecht, Bayern Munich, Lyon, Rosenburg and Donetsk;remember our seemingly timid attitude in some of our home games on the road to Seville only for the lessons to be taken on board and our alter ego of aggressive creative imaginative and penetrating teamwork to carry the day in places like Stuttgart, Vigo, Ewood park and Anfield.
Martin, John and Steve learned but not always the easy way; remember the depression that was Basle before the stone was rolled away and the Celtic resurrection got onto full flow!
I believe that the mist of doubt has to be cleared now. When we enter the portals of the champions league next season (I accept that it is not certain but allow me that assumption please), we must not only be aware of the pace and strengths of our potential opponents but also that we have proven our capabilities in playing against them. Even more importantly we must be sure that we can inflict real sporting damage and that were the ones that carry the weapon of surprise.
I know that our work in progress will have advanced. But I also know that unless we adopt a well thought strategy of comparing and contrasting our own capabilities against the leading teams and tacticians of European football there will always be not just a chance but a real likelihood of major disappointment.
The coming 18months is possibly the best chance in many years for the most sustainable path to be taken as we approach what I believe is a critical fork in the road ahead. Rather than the financial profile having the decisive influence, our place in the Scottish football, a potentially revamped premiership, and the almost certain restructuring of European football will be dictated by the success of our strategy in being ready for Europe next year.
At the core of all this are the decisions that have to be taken on who should stay, who should go, and who we need to (and can afford to) bring in. Those decisions must be taken on hard evidence that they will have a beneficial impact on Celtic’s success in Europe.
Any other basis is no more than playing Russian roulette with our club and the emotional well-being of every one of us.
By the way, I don’t pretend to know the answers to this one (but I bet all of you do), but I’m almost certain that it is stretching the minds of the Managerial and Coaching staff at Paradise.
So how do we prepare this season for Europe next season in a way that will test our players, educate our management, and entertain we supporters? Just what is our strategy to generate real faith and sustainable vitality in the knowledge that we are good enough to once more venture beyond these shores, cross swords with Barca or Lyon, Porto or Madrid, Chelsea or Arsenal, and come away in a triumph of skills and reputation with certainly many more points, hopefully the reward of a prize or two but most definitely with the resonant accolades of pride in our team, our fans, and the echoes of welcome from new friends in new places?
Hail Hail
Estadio
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Hello fellow Celts,agree with bhoy in england,we get all the games on fox sports here, the middlesborugh game on sunday the stadium looked half empty,besides the biggar clubs their seems to be loads of empty seats, ..same thing with the champions league games on espn novelty wearing off?
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Oregonbhoy
Re - St Gs
Sorry took so long to reply been caught up in paul,s new thread maelstrom. Moved stateside myself so couple of years since set eyes on the old edifice but funnily enough rented dvd out recently called, the ratcatcher... seems to be set mostly in Kintra st and Dunsy with St.Gs in the background
ah the memories.
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Estadio....The Enlightened Scribe has all his faculties I am delighted to read...
Insightful and Prescient indeed.....
My answer to your conumdrum is encouragement, positivity, patience, good humor and keeping the faith...It is the only way...Well... the part the supporters play...Leave the rest to the Gaffer!
Gavil Guy
USA GDP is one part of the equation of illusion...Chickens and roost come to mind...consider deficit, pensions and GM (not our esteemed contributor of course)......Anyway...agree to disagree on an off topic subject...Hope you are well Gavil...
KTF
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After the Lisbon highlights, we deservedly won again BTW, I watched FSC's review of the weekend games. Unfortunately I nodded off during their long and tedious review of the EPL, and woke up to hear them discussing the CL games. If anyone saw it please tell me, did Bobby McMahon cringe in his review of Rangers and the prospects for Alex?
ESPN2 are showing the Man United and Villareal game tomorrow afternoon. Should be an interesting match up, which United really must win to move on.
Fans from Villareal were next to me when I was home for the Hearts game last season, the one when BQ was disgracefully booed. Seemed a nice bunch of fans and I hope they win tomorrow night.
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I see the meeja today is building the case that Keano is too much money and trouble for Celtic. Hmmmm something smells. Oh its the Big C.(Kojo, you never did tell us that the C has an odour).
Interesting that we had a model player in a certain Mr. Bellamy.
Seems to me that the bluenose meeja are a quivering at the thought of Keano in the hoops.
Theres only one man who can determine if we can afford him and the same man will determine if he can handle him.
If he goes for it,
"lets tell all the folks you know
Keano's gonnae put on a show,
for he is classy and he is strong
and he looks great beside Lennon"
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The Herald is very amusing this morning with Mister Spiers accusing (without of course doing so!) Prso of play-acting... Reminds me when I spoke to my father after the game that he just said 'he chucked it'... Looks like my da may very well have been correct.
B
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First up ... more kudos to estadio, another great post there. hope the bruises get you want you want from Mr S. Claus.
Right the EPL. I've spent virually my entire life in England anmd have watched the ups and downs of their domestic game especially since the formation of the Premiership.
I'd just like to here and now state my sincere belief that footballing wise, the EPL is vastly overrated in my opinion.
There I've said it.
I have taken umbrage many many times with my fellow Anglo-dwellers awhen they're abnged on about how good it is and I always just ask them some standard questions, each of which leaves them completely stumped.
1) How many truly world class players have joined an EPL team from a foreign country? By this I refer to players already considered world class and not home grown or players who have since become known as such.
2) Consider an MOR Premiership player, for example, (G.Marcotti's favourite) Gavin McCann, Matt Taylor or my particular bugbear the evil and truly disgusting John Arne Riise. Is anybody out there willing to state that an average player from the EPL is better than the average player in La Liga or Serie A. Come to think of it, some of the players doing the rounds in le Championnat (a vastly underrated league IMO) are better than those three average EPl goons.
3) If the EPL is so good, How do Cygan, Hyppia and Wes Brown all get a game for clubs considered to be towards the top of the pile.
4) If the EPl is so financially secure, explain the debt situation then?
and finally (the one that really gets up there noses) If the EPl is so competitive, Explain the Euorpean record of Man Utd and Arsenal in the Champions league spots EVERY year, with the other spots being taken by just five teams since its inception (excluding Chelsea who have for clear reasons, a superior standing courtesy of Abramovich's Oil cash). (Newcastle (2), Liverpool, Blackburn (1), Everton (1) and of course, the debt busters of Elland Rd.)
Is it not the case that the average premiership team would flounder in Spain and Italy, and probably wouldn't be that great in D1 either?
here endeth rant.
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NTL backs out of challenge to Sky on TV football
In a strongly worded statement, NTL said that the Commission had “failed to deliver a level playing field for competition” and was “refusing to amend the auction rules in a way that makes it feasible for other parties to bid for substantial packages of rights”.
As a result, the cable company said that it was “unlikely that we will bid for the majority of the rights” — code for taking on Sky for the bulk of the available packages. BSkyB is 37.2 per cent owned by News Corporation, parent company of The Times.
Sky has dominated live coverage of top-flight football since the 1990s, and currently pays £1.02 billion for an exclusive three-year deal. The FA Premier League will auction rights for a new three-year agreement, starting in August 2007, in the first half of next year.
Other broadcasters said they would study the agreement, but there appeared to be little enthusiasm for a big bid for all the rights. A spokesman for Five said that the “sixth package would be of interest”, while a more circumspect ITV said it would “carefully consider” its options.
Setanta Sports, the Dublin-based sports broadcaster, which has the rights to Scottish Premier League games, “confirmed its interest”, but indicated that it was unlikely to challenge Sky for the bulk of the games. A number of former Sky Sports staff have moved over to Setanta in recent months. The broadcaster has recently also attracted investment from Benchmark Capital.
Of the other broadcasters, the BBC has largely given up on buying live rights to club football games, although Roger Mosey, head of BBC Sport, has at least indicated that the broadcaster will examine the Premier League’s bid documentation. Channel 4, meanwhile, is the least likely to enter the race.
Broadcast sources estimated that the sixth package could go for about £75 million. Depending on the clubs involved, a Premiership game can draw an audience of anywhere between three million and ten million on free-to-air television. Those levels would make it attractive to Five, which rarely attains that sort of figure, but less interesting to ITV, which regularly transmits shows that attain more than five million viewers.
The deal between the European Commission and the Premier League ends nearly two years of talks, which at times had threatened to break down, amid threats that the Commission would insist that the rights were split more equally.
Richard Scudamore, chief executive of the Premier League, welcomed the end of “a long and often complicated negotiation”. Neelie Kroes, the Competition Commissioner, said: “The commitments offered by the Premier League should ensure that the media rights are sold in a fair and transparent manner.”
ROLL UP FOR FOOTBALL’S AUCTION
• Six packages of 23 games will be auctioned.
• Three-year contract, starting August 2007.
• No broadcaster can buy more than five packages.
• All packages to be “balanced” — meaning an equal split of games involving leading clubs.
• Match times to be set by the Premier League.
• Each package to be bid for separately.
• Independent “trustee”, appointed by the European Commission, will monitor the auction.
• Auction to begin in February or March, wrapping up in the summer.
• BSkyB currently holds all the live rights, paying £341 million a season.
• Bids expected from BSkyB, Setanta Sports, ITV and Five. BBC and NTL are also possible contenders.
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Estadio 2.35. That was a helluva post. I'm glad the unfortunate incident hasn't dulled your eruditeness (I may have made that word up).
Impressed with your analysis of the way we grew into our European games and the need to be betetr prepared for next year's adventure.
Seems to me that one of the keys here will be Sutton. He was involved more than anyone we have left at the club and he's a thinking man's footballer. I know opinions vary but I think we need to keep him for the next 18 months (and then get him into a coaching role?).
Just a thought!
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Just noticed on the web that Keane isn't eligible to sign for anyone until the 1st January.
He'll need to keep fit so maybe we could offer to let him train at Barrowfield.....!
Coat's already on.
P.S. Previous post - betetr = better.
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Watching Celtic tv last night I decided to turn over to Rankgers tv to see how they were dealing with the current situation.
Well the presenter whatever her name is (nice pair of pins by the way), must have been told by the producer to wear a mini (got to get the punters phoning up somehow).
Their resident pundit wee willie whitever his name is what a miserable wee git that is . The amount of times he said to play fer the glesga rangers time and time again. A typical wee hun kynaff. The other guy coudlnt take his eyes off whats her names legs as could I till I got clumped round the back of the napper by she who must be obeyed.
Anway the upshot is they are gutted to the core. New money must be brought in, new ideas, new players, this mob aint good enough for the glesga rangers, all that.
Cheered me up no end. Im sure Carol Thatcher could go in and do a job for them she might even get to do her business on the pitch, like most of us would like to do to the Ibrox playing surface.
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A very surprising development (ahem!) on that great hun website Follow Follow.
From BBC's website.....
The operators of an independent Rangers supporters website have banned three members after a cartoon depicting a hanging Celtic footballer was posted.
A cartoon of midfielder Neil Lennon appeared on the Follow Follow website.
The site's editor described the posting as "juvenile" and said it was removed when it came to his attention.
Mark Dingwall said he could not prove it but two people believed to be involved were Celtic supporters and one was a Rangers fan.
Offensive posts
He said: "Juvenile posts of this nature are removed when brought to our attention or become the subject of a warning to users.
"In this thread a public warning was issued to all users to desist from making or responding to offensive posts.
"Three users involved in the thread have been banned from the website.
"Two of those banned appear to be Celtic fans, one appears to be a Rangers fan."
Anti-sectarian campaigner, Donald Gorrie MSP, said although the message was childish and distasteful, it was vital to clamp down on such behaviour.
Supporter reputations will be tarnished and I think it is in their interest to get the thing sorted out
Donald Gorrie MSP
Lennon played in Celtic's 3-0 victory over Rangers on Saturday.
The cartoon, which depicted the footballer being hung from a scaffold, carried a caption with the words "Hang Neil Lennon, hang him high"."
Speaking to BBC Radio's Scotland Live programme, Mr Gorrie said: "I do think there has to be a clear boundary that people do not go across without getting into serious trouble.
"It doesn't do the two football clubs, or the supporters associations, any good.
"People will think they are all a complete lot of bampots - rather than just a few bampots and a lot of decent people who support a particular club."
Sectarian slogans
Mr Gorrie added: "Supporter reputations will be tarnished and I think it is in their interest to get the thing sorted out."
Footymad, which runs the Follow Follow site, said it acted to remove the image when it came to its attention.
Lennon has been the target of sectarian abuse in the past.
Last year vandals sprayed "You are a dead man Lennon" along with sectarian slogans outside his Glasgow home.
The 32-year-old Catholic quit as a Northern Ireland international in 2002 after a death threat.
The Follow Follow website describes itself as an independent online Glasgow Rangers fanzine.
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Estadio, scotcelt
Both thought-provoking posts.
I get the impression that WGS is already planning his signing targets for January and Summer 2006 (he has stated in public that is the case) but if we take a stranglehold on the SPL with perhaps only Hearts tucked in behind us then maybe thoughts will move on to making sure we don't have another Bratislava.
However as Estadio points out - how do we make sure that once in the CL we understand the nuances and requirements to make CP a fortress again and yet be able to pick up something on the road.
I'm not sure what the overall coaching situation is at CP but is it time to look at an extra coach or two to begin the focus on that?
Almost the case of having them spend their time building up their own knowledge and understanding of potential opponents for 2006 onwards as well as looking at possible players coming through.
WGS and the staff have to concentrate on winning the SPL this year but forward planning is critical. The only problem is that if it came to light we would get slaughtered in the media for being arrogant and presumptious.
Funny thing football - it is the only business where you try to plan for the future and the "parasites" hammer you, or they certainly would us, and yet in every other business sphere you would be commended for trying to gain that extra edge by applying a forward thinking strategy.
When you think about it the mantra of one game at a time has a basis in common sense and prudent good manners but it is also a load of tosh.
Perhaps that's part of the problem - I dont know?
The Club as a business is planning to be ready for major re-structuring of football finances over the next 10 years as Paul's thread has once more alerted us and yet the football side of the organisation (THE MOST IMPORTANT BIT) has to go with this "one game a time" approach.
I just hope there is even now a more structured strategy for the football side to take up the possible and lets hope probable challenge of the CL although it may be a very discreet one.
Let's hope that is the case - it is nice to adapt and learn as MON did on his travels but it would be better to learn as we go from a position where we have done some serious preparation before-hand even a year or 18 months ahead.
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Edward, Celtic or Rangers would need to give two years notice to quit the SPL without the agreement of the other clubs. This has been discussed within the SPL, and a payoff deal is likely to allow them to move quicker.
Estadio, I agree with your firm assumption that we need to position ourselves well in Europe next season.
Kojo, the ball (and most of the debt) is firmly in the court of Mr G.
With TV bidders disappearing like snow of a dyke (thanks ternar), the man needs to deliver for 2007, not 2010 I would assume.
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Estadio,Scotcelt and Shamrock Diary-
Good morning.
I broached this subject yesterday -with the demise of-to quote Graham Spiers" the twitching,kicking corpse that is rangers..."-we have no sustained competition.
If these words were to act as an inspiration to Hibernian or hearts to go on a run and give us a challenge -good!
I have no doubts whatsoever that Mr.Strachans attention will be turning to our Champions League campaign.
He may throw a quick glance back to last july-have a quick gulp of air,wipe that bead of sweat from his brow-and know that it will never happen again.
His preparations will begin in January- of that I,m sure-whether it means going to watch our prospective Champions League competitors or trying to arrange friendlies against quality teams -we will have to wait and see.
With Peter Lawell already stating that we might be on a pre-season tour of China and Japan-I,m not sure that we will meet teams of C.L.quality out there and, although it might bring much needed finance,will it not hinder our preparations ?
noel.
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Hello All - I am posting from my sick bed today so apologies for any typos.
mayomandan - excellent piece of info. re the website and also the reaction of Mr Donald "All round good egg" Gorrie. I posted last week about Celtic being tarred with the sam brush as you know who and how sickened I am by it and the reaction of this guy Gorrie proves my point. Consider the facts
A website for team A has a 'cartoon' of the hanging of a player from team B - so where does the responsibility lie? Anywhere else on the planet it would be with team A. Here in Scotland it is with team A & team B. Unbelievable !!
As mentioned previously, in some ways there is something refreshingly honest about FC Dignity fans calling you a dirty fenian b%$^$&* !! - at least you know where you stand with these 'people' - I find the attitude of mealy mouthed politicians like Gorrie more distasteful because he speaks under the guise of trying to do something about the problem, but at the back of his mind, is ever wary of the composition of the electorate who put him into the priveleged position he currently enjoys - in my opinion he is untruthful and only wants to be seen to do the right thing rather than doing it.
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Just lifted this from Fans F.C.-
"The midfielder saw his side beaten 3-0 at Celtic on Saturday to increase the pressure on manager Alex McLeish after a poor start to the season.
Ahead of tomorrow night's crucial Champions League clash against FC Porto, Ferguson told the Scottish Sun: "This is the lowest time of my football career.
"I have never felt more down than this.
"I broke my kneecap and had seven months out when I was at Blackburn but this feels worse.
"We are stuck in a horrible rut and it is getting deeper and deeper. But the only people who can drag Rangers out if this are the players."
This is Barry Ferguson-captain of rangers-admitting they are in freefall and can do nothing to stop it.
Edward-if I was you,I would be very worried.....
noel.
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Noel, i'm sure the powers that be are thinking about this.
However, I worry that it's almost an intractable problem in that friendly matches, no matter how they are dressed up, never give that competitive edge. Maybe we need to sponsor a trophy and get 3 good clubs to CP for a tournament in the summer.
There is probably a better than even chance that the league winners get automatic entry next year. That guarantees us a fair chunk of dosh but the problem of trying to play ourselves into form from within the CL group - what a scary thought.
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I agree totally that we should start preparing for Champions League football. It may seem dismissive of Hearts and Hibs but I simply cannot see them sustaining a meaningful challenge for the season. And don't even mention Rang*rs.....
I believe it's GS's job to ensure the players are 100% focussed on the SPL this year and that they're minds are not distracted on thoughts of next year. His mind, and those of his and the clubs staff should be looking ahead though. There's everything to gain from being properly prepared for the challenges that await next year. I don't however see that a strong Rang*rs team is a necessity for our progress. That is a short-sighted view. IMO the future of top class football is in Europe, with domestic competitions gradually becoming of little importance. While I'll miss the joy I get from beating them, I personally hope they crash and burn and disappear from the face of the earth. Unfortunately any move we make seems destined to be inclusive of them. Mores the pity.
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Glass half full, I'm less sanguine about this. One of the real strengths and weaknesses on the internet is its anonymity. Would we be surprised if a story broke that a couple of Rangers supporters had hacked into (in fact just logged onto) a Celtic web site and did something that was aimed at getting us a bad name? Of course we wouldn't - bloody typical would be the response along with how stupid to get caught.
My guess (in bold) is that this is a smokescreen but i'm far from certain - which of course is the whole point. Deep waters this.
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Scotcelt-bingo !
-good idea.
Something along the lines of the Amsterdam Tournament but sponsored by Setanta.( or m.i.m. ? :P)
I would have Stuttgart,Paris St.Germain and Wigan-3 different styles-anybody ?
noel.
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Estadio - glad to hear you're on the mend, did you consider shaving off your blood-matted facial mane or is that a snip or two too far? ;)
DarthOVader 12.40 (re Gavilguys post) :-
"...Round the decay
Of that colossal wreck,
boundless and bare,
The lone and level sands
stretch far away..."
And it was decreed a
casino would be built
there.
As for Barry Ferguson's "never felt this down" comment, seems to be the only rangers player with fighting spirit who is "raging against the dying of the light" and deserves some respect for this.
Murray said last week his club was now on a sounder financial footing - was this the usual spin and stuff and nonsense or has he found a dusty old booty box stashed under his granny's bed?
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Peat Blog
For coming third you get the satisfaction that you are still above the TFoD!!
As far as the league goes, the EPL will have to do what Celtic have been doing for the last few years in not living beyond their means. Only MUtd have a real problem in this regard (Glazer debt), the rest are just chasing the dream and can trim their sails in a downturn.
Do the Scottish media (TMoD) really think that La Guen will take on a job where there is ony £2.50 of a transfer budget!
What’s the news on our forwards for the weekend?
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CL Preparation
Even going for our own tournament with invited guests will only give us friendlies since that is how the opposition will treat it.
Different season starts and commitments means different application.
How about taking 15 Bosman's on a four week trial, fully paid, lining them up as a team and playing half a dozen times. The incentive would lie in a possible contract for anyone good enough to beat the hoops.
Perhaps MON could do a 4 week stint as the Bosman Manager for his retainer?
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Hello all
I find the hypocrisy of the Footymad web people staggering. This is hardly the first time Follow Follow has had accusations of bigotry thrown at them.
in the past Footymad have just pretended to ignore the complaints. It is high time they were taken before the courts for this sort of behaviour. They are, after all, supposed to be the people responsible for Follow Follow. It's no use acting indignant after the fact, especially when thay have had complaints in the past - not by me, but by a well repected journalist that I am related to.
Also I'm with GlassHalf Full. How can Celtic fans be the ones accused of causing trouble. I doubt very much it was Celtic fans that posted the cartoon of Neil Lennon. Probably it was their reaction that was the problem, (How dare they complain!!).
Footymad is run by a bunch of stupid people down here in England, who appear to have no idea of what they are running, or simply do not care - and I strongly suspect the latter. If they cannot be more responsible than this, they shouldn't be allowed to run a website of any sort.
If you carried a placard with an image of David Murray being hung, you would be arrested for riotous behaviour, or possibly with breach of the peace at the very least. Why should Follow Follow be treated any differently.
Hail Hail
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Morning All,
Still catching up from the weekend, and sweet child of mine what a good weekend it was.
Just as I got to grips with one thread a new one was off and running.
Anyhow, this is my favouritest of all CQN topics, 'Breaking out of SPHell'!
The pack-ice is in the microwave right now, we have moved from what people called wishful thinking to speculation to the lazy media reporting on it every week. Our plight seems to be gathering pace by the day.
The conduit is apparent- TV!
If the negotiations are to start in the next 6 months Celtic must be banging as hard on Hadrains Wall as hard as they possibly can.
The catalyst is apparent- A Fresh Product!
Estimated £75m for the last package? What if we throw in two of the biggest Derby matches on the planet and guarenteed subscriptions in Scotland? £85-90m? No peanuts.
TBE.
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Glass half full, I had exactly the same thoughts as you when I read that article. Why don't we just amalgamate clubs and be done with it?
The line 'Mark Dingwall said he could not prove it but two people believed to be involved were Celtic supporters and one was a Rangers fan' really got to me. If he couldn't prove it why is he making such a comment? I agree with scotcelt56 that maybe everything is not as clear as it seems but until I have any evidence in front of me why should I even consider such a conspiracy theory? If you look closley at TV footage of that fateful day in Dallas in 1963, I'm sure you can see a man on a grassy knoll wearing what appears to be a green and white block scarf.....
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mayomandan, be careful about 1963. I'm sure that noel90 could produce you a photo with exactly that. He's managed Angelina Jolie, L-Lo and a whole bunch of others so a grassy knoll in Dallas should be a piece of cake.
For the avoidance of doubt I do think the "two celtic fans" is a smokescreen as I honestly can't imagine any sane Celtic supporter putting up that image - even to get a Rangers web site in trouble -and insane ones probably wouldn't have the technical nous.
I hope.
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Scotcelt-
are you talking about this grassy knoll ?
noel.
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as i've said before-the old firm is long past it's sell by date and it is becoming more and more a convenient getout for lazy journalists.i'm sure if they could they would like to write that 80,000 old firm fans went to seville,and there were no arrests.
if we are going to break out of the spl we stand a better chance on our own.at the game on saturday you saw faces and heard voices from all over the world,all wanting to be part of the celtic family.
i think the forwards for the weekend will be hartson and mcgeady.
sutton,majic and shaunaldinho are doubtful,but it's only tuesday,and there have been a few near miracles worked at parkhead already this season.
gale 8 becoming severe gale 9 in
german bight
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or this one -please note the fat bloke in the rangers top looking over the fence.
noel.
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noel
I fervently hope you are right about us being able to start preparations for Europe sooner rather than later (even if it is discreetly done)
Yesterday after st anthony's quiz about teams who have visited us to play friendlies I posted that someone like Dynamo Kiev would be good because they would already have started their season and if they could find the time that would be a right good test for us.
Playing three different teams with different styles is also a sound idea to sharpen us up with tactics.
Whatever else, please would someone at CP spare us Leicester, Fulham and Leeds next year.
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After watching Ronaldinho destroy Real Madrid at the weekend it was interesting to witness the Madrid fans applauding Ronaldinho's second goal. There was article in one of the papers yesterday saying how this was great to see and how it would never, ever happen in an 'old firm' game. I am sorry but I have to disagree with this. Was this particular reported not at Celtic Park on Saturday to witness the Celtic supporters applauding and cheering Peter Lovenkrands when he came on in the second half. This act of sportmanship puts the Madrid fans in the shade.
Happy days
HAIL HAIL
Bhoy O'Bhoy
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I was at the game on saturday and maybe I missed it when we were celebrating our goals but when did hemdani come on ?
noel.
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Noel he started but I think he was hiding behind the corner flag on in Fernando's pocket because he didn't seem to do much
TBE.
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stephen thompson was also given a rousing reception.in a footballing way ronaldinho and s.thompson are twins separated at birth
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Cheers TBE-
I can,t believe those thugs at follow follow wanting to string up our captain
noel.
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My apologies-
wrong Lennon
noel.
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Shamrock diary - Have to agree about our choice of oppenents in friendly games.
Do we have some arrangement set up with Leicester as part of MON coming to us? As for Fulham, while they're a Premiership side, it's hardly ideal preparation for Europe. Although I know the game is always looked forward to by the large Celtic fan base in London.
I like the idea of a 4 team tournament, so long as we're playing teams of obvious European class. The Amsterdam tournament is usually of a high quality. Also a chance to exploit Marketing opportunities in a city where we have left our mark recently.
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scotcelt56 & mayonmandan
The fact that we are even having this discussion re-enforces my point. If Mark Dingwall is reading his I am convinced he will be laughing his head off because his ploy of introducing uncertainty has worked - he has spun this with the help of the BBC and Donald Gorrie and turned a story about the disgraceful conduct of some people supporting FC Dignity into an analysis of the conduct of old firm fans. Game, Set & Match.
I have contacted the Press Office at Celtic Park to complain about this - they are taking the matter seriously. Perhaps if more of us complain thru the club something can be done about this.
Make no mistake - the Dingwalls of this world will always behave in a certain way. It is the most prominent medium in this country (the BBC) whose conduct I am disgusted with. Their shameful quoting of this blatantly biased man is not the behaviour of an impartial news gathering organisation.
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Dont Bratt Back-
ronaldinho is a player while steven thompson has the same ball control as this bloke .......
noel.
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Interested to note that keane agents states he's waiting for the Celtic call and Keane might not be prepared to accept a big wage cut.
Dunno which part of this statement is true but roy if your out there your not needed and if you do seriously want to come and your a true supporter then an issue like wages should not be a problem.
P.s Get used to lacing Petrov and Lenny's boots.
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I was really surprised to not see those two feature on last nights conjoined twins documentary on channel 5.
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Whilst we all are excited and feel that we've got huge potential if we joined some sort of Super League, bear in mind that there's not the same excitment about it down south. To be honest, they don't really care, and we have to sell ourselves.
So I think signing the likes of Keane, Bellamy and even having WGS as manager are all good for our profile.
We all think we've got nothing to prove to anyone about the size of our club, but I don't think we can sit back and wait to be welcomed.
And sadly, I think we can't sell ourselves seperately from the "Currant Buns". If we're to get invited, so are they....
by the way, the MSL Barcelona team is intriguing - maybe Celtic should make enquiries about starting a Boston franchise. Even if it's small stage at this case...
Ok, Speculation overload....
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Something I posted on another forum, but makes sense, to me anyway.
"I'm the same as yourself, I dunno where Keano would fit into our team. what about?
Taking him on the terms of player coach. He will give us that extra option if we need to hold out games, Lennon and him in midfield. We can go away in Europe and defend a lead if need be, we dont have many other defensive mids in the squad.
Then he can coach the youngsters when he isn't needed."
He can be played in the same way we played Lennon and Lambert a few seasons back when needs be.
TBE.
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I wonder when that pic was posted on Follow Follow.
I know I complained about it being posted OVER A YEAR AGO, to footymad and Nil By Mouth
Screengrab Here
Be assured, it was a horrible, horrible thread all the way down - unbelievable they're even talking about Celtic fans on that report....
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If we are to have a tourney, what about CELTIC'S G8 SUMMIT (the G standing for green)
Guest list:
Tokyo Verdy
Sporting Club Lisbon
Werder Bremen
Real Betis
St Etienne
Santos Laguna
Austria Vienna
This could be followed by some musical ext |
