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?
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Paul
Whi is Zsa Zsa?
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Podium?
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Och well... 3rd will do I suppose!
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This will be a very important point for Celtic.
The political song debate already splits the support (including those who contribute to this blog) pretty equally. Even if those who believe the rebel songs to be suitable are right (and personally I do not), it is surely in Celtic's interest that they are not heard over the next few weeks and tomorrow in particular.
PS Could have been first, but thought I'd try and contribute to the discussion instead
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Paul67 ............ If the SFA will listen out for songs the Celtic fans sing .........then they will have to listen out for songs ......Hearts, Hibs, Motherwell, Killi and the likes.
Are you saying IF the SFA hear a rebel song at Hibs tomorrow they will pas this on to UEFA?
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The SFA will try to bring us into this - there's no doubt about it. All the media reports are already mentioning "Old Firm sectarianism". I hate the Old Firm tag... we should start a campaign against it.
To Ranger's credit, if you can call it that, I think some of the other clubs in Scotland are just as bad if not worse regarding sectarianism and racism i.e. Hearts and Kilmarnock.
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gerry - from what I understand the various organisations will police their own tournaments. UEFA will investigate European games and the SPL/SFA will look at domestic issues.
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Not had a chance to check through last nights posts, but this is well worth a listen.
Speirs in top form.
Peat
Apologies if it had already been posted.
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Bryce Curdy .........thanks for that.
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Big up to Plato on getting The Golden Lantern.....
noel.
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Very good point, Paul.
Everything in the power of the establishment (in all its forms) will be done to shift the focus of this shame from solely Rangers, to the Old firm.
We all know of Rangers fans and how blind they can be to their own specific faults, so quickly to brand us all 'as bad as each other'. This could well be a big chance to further distance ourselves from the institutionally predjudice RFC.
A conserted effort must be made by us all to achieve this.
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I would like to see the club list the songs they believe are unacceptable.
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Bryce
Another problem are the "add-ons", specifically on FoA.
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Someone should save the 90 Minutes show and send it to UEFA - let them see how bad it really is!
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Bryce Curdy,
This could be a difficult move without tarring ourselves with the same brush as Rangers.
As much as it would be seen by some as a good proactive step, you can easily see the headlines - 'CELTIC PLEA TO END FANS' DISGRACE'
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I must admit that the singing of Rebel songs has decreased a large amount through the years.
I've been going to CP coming on 25 years now and when I first started going they where sung none stop and now you hardly hear them sung (apart from Rangers and some away games)
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In pursuing Rangers for sectarian singing, UEFA have set Scottish football, maybe even Gerry, the SFA do not need to pass any domestic issue onto UEFA, they are judge and jury for any Scottish game, and yes, I believe we will come under scrutiny when other clubs will not.
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Chick Young's doing his upmost to defend Rangers for their songs.
'By definition, it could be argued that these songs are not actually offensive'
The media is quite painful at times in this country.
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Our "problem" lies with the away support, where "political" songs are common, as it greater hostility to all things protestant.
I have been to three away games this year and in every one I was embarrassed by some of the nonsense that Celtic fans were singing/shouting.
"Political" seems to have become some kind of exonerating tag- as if a song that is political cannot, by definition be offensive. Personally, I get quite offended by neds glorifying the IRA.
Of course we are not as bad as Them (who are in complete denial if the wonderful David Edgar is anything to go by), but let's not pretend we have nothing to worry about...
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just wait for the uneducated to accuse the singing of the "fields of Athenry" as sectarian, as sad as it is predictable.
Celtic fans have the chance to show rangers how to create a "fantastic atmosphere (copyright jock brown) without the need for rebel songs.
Maybe when uefa are looking into this they could question the sectarian booing of irish catholic celtic players at every away game in scotland together with "f off to ireland" chants.
Heard the first rebel song at celtic park for years at the aberdeen game - "flower of Scotland"!
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Just listening to Radio Scotland:
"What about Celtic?"
"Terrorist organisations"
"Just as bad"
"UEFA will be looking into them next"
How long did it take to drag us into this?
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mgm
see my earlier comment: the argument is lost by the insertion of Sinn Fein and IRA in the song.
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It's all kicking off on Sportsound now. Come on, which one of you called Gordon Smith an Orange b?
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Gordon Smith is what he is.
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You could hear the determination on Radio Scotland to involve Celtic in this argument.
The blame on Rangers is already being dilluted.
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Celtic need to be proactive about this, or we will inevitably get dragged in, partly through a biased and lazy media and partly because we are not without fault.
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no doupt the media and the sfa will say they are tackling this issue and that the problem is with a small section of the tfod orcs, as wee all heard their were no fans allowed in the san siro apart from a handful off v.i.p.s and club sponsers and all u heard were sectarian songs up 2 our knees in ?
enouth said eh?
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Paul- not long-
gordon smith and chick[spit]young just did.
Fair play to Richard Gordon for reminding them it IS rangers that UEFA is investigating.
noel.
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Re that last topic.
Why not offer no points for a draw?
3 points for a win and 0 for a draw and 0 for a defeat.
That way a tied game offers no benefit to either team and a team will play the latter part of the game as if they are losing. Therefore attacking against another team who will also attack therefore more exciting games or at least more exciting ends to games.
No major drawbacks and the game improved.
Imagine Motherwell coming to Celtic Park knowing a draw gets them no points. They will have to come out even if it is well into the second half.
Regarding our songs then put our trust in UEFA. F the Pope is going to be their downfall and if the SFA try and make it ones as bad as the other then it could be the SFA's downfall.
Tonybhoy
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If we sing any rebel songs 2moro, you can bet the wall of silence from the Daily Record on TFOD sectarian shame will end and will suddenly become an old firm issue!
At least the Herald had the balls to publish Scotland's secret shame!
Forget boycotting JJB, don't buy the Record as it panders to Murray and his bigots!
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No doubt all the blame will be put on the doorstep of separate schooling.
One song or incident tomorrow will mean banner headlines and parity will be restored in their eyes.
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"What about Celtic?"= Let's spread the blame
"You can't blame the current Rangers management"=It's all in the past
"It's a societal problem"= See it's not our fault
"Let's talk about football"=Let's ignore it and hope it goes away AGAIN
Apologists
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I have to say that I find songs glorifying cowardly murduring terrorists to be every bit as offensive as anything I've heard at Ibrox.
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Richie the argument is only lost to those who insert that, I agree though we sink to their level when those add that bit in.
In fairness though the song is sung at parkhead (when the punters actually find their voices) by and large without the add in, just at away games its hijacked.
Your correct though, that doesnt make it right.
I was just pointing out that there are a number of songs sung by celtic fans that other supporters wrongly accuse of being sectarian.
Maybe fields a bad example due to the add ins. Maybe this is a better example - "Let the people Sing" - a fantastic song and nothing better at away games when this is sung.
I once had a debate with a rangers fan trying to accuse this song of being bigoted. I emailed him the full lyrics and asked him to point out the bigoted parts. However, had he phoned a radio phone in it would have been accepted as bigoted and we'd get put back under the "old firm" umbrella.
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Battlefield
Never mind distancing ourselves from Rangers. Let's distance ourselves from the bigoted Celtic fans.
Celtic fans singing the same type of hatred as the bigots at Ibrox and other Scottish grounds.
"So they'll be no protestants at all "
"Sad orange b******"
F*** King Billy and John Knox
Oh it's good to be Roman Catholic"
Why have you ever heard the press or media touch on these sectarian songs from Celtic fans?
Let's not just hope Celtic fans don't sing these songs at Easter Road. Tomorrow any Celtic fans hearing these songs should be shouting down such singing and then ask the stewards and police to kick them out the ground!
No bigots among Celtic fans!
Take action against them and let UEFA take action against Rangers.
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Bryce Curdy@ 2:45
Does that include the Irish National Anthem?
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bryce
YOU HAVN'T GOT A CLUE.
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mcgubligan - I confess to not knowing the words of the Irish national anthem. If it glorifies the IRA the answer is yes. I have no issue at all if it is simply republican.
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waller1888 - care to back up your statement?
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BRYCE-
drop it it.
I don,t thnk CQN is the place to initiate a discussion on the fight for
Irish FREEDOM or the latter troubles in the north of Ireland.
noel.
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listening to Radio Scotland
as some of the lads said
desperately trying to tie us into this
ive sent 5 e mails to them all complaining about the flutes in the background
NO RESPONSE OR AIRTIME
RFC are definitely trying to do something about bigotry
PROMOTE IT - IT SELLS JERSEYS
although after this summer that wont matter either
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bryce
see noel90 2.53
YOU HAVN'T GOT A CLUE
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The Irish National Anthem?
Which one would that be?
I've only ever heard the received version of the National Anthem on one occasion and that before the Jackie McNamarra testimonial (talk about using nationalism to coin/con in some money). Sung in the Gaelic beautifully by Patricia Fearns.
There is a lack of respect shown to the Irish National Anthem by some Celtic fans; it must must offend those true Irish patriots.
Some preface the song with a call Irish people to indulge in sectarian cleansing to Irish people of protestant background. That is an offensive use of the Irish national anthem.
Others add on to the Irish Republic's national anthem the phrase " God bless the Pope" I think that can be regarded as sectarian.
Are we serious about tackling the bigots among Celtic fans?
Seems like the answer among some Celtic fans is no!
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I have to admit to listening to Radio Scotland and I found it was going well until the chap Smith came in with his 'I was brought up non denomenational' statement as a precursor to a vitriolic attempt to drag Celtic into the debate.....was it me or did I detect real venom in his tone ?
Sadly just as it seems very challenging to get Celtic consumers to sing at home games, it is equally hard to get some of the less informed variety to stop singing certain words and songs at the away matches.....no matter how much we protest here tomorrow will be no different.
90 mins of let the people sing would be interesting at the home of Ireland's first football club in Scotland. That would set up the debate.
I would not phone in or text these shows but if anyone does feel the urge could they remind this lot that on the matter of ' Madrigal not being fit to host a bit match' that they do vs Barca / Madrid etc each season and the did host 10,000 Celtic fans and now enjoy a great reciprocal friendship. Perhaps it is the nature of the visitors after all ?
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Listen ghuys, can we all just keep the baw on the ground ?????????
Some things are more important.... like THIS GHUY.
We are all on the same side. Let's remember what it means to be a Celtic player and a fhan !!!!!!!!!!
pablophanque
No.1 This day in History
Magic Moments - Perry Como. 1959
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Bryce
The point I was trying to make - badly I'll admit after a re-read - was that you appeared to be falling into the media inspired "they sing about Ireland and are, therefore bigoted/sectarian". It's just one of their tactics in defence of indefensible hun, so we end up with every Irish song we sing is bad and any celebration of our heritage is equally bad.
Not aimed at you but I'm getting a wee bit fed up with fellow Celtic fans having a go at fans who feel an affinity to Ireland. An expression I once heard about Celtic always rings a bell with me - They are the team of the Irish in Scotland. Not exclusively, obviously, but that is certainly a facet of our club and support that seems to be being attacked by our own support.
Rant over.
mcgubligan
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Paul
The discussion on Radio Scotland has just backed up your article. Whatever it takes the media in this country will drag us in to this.
Interestingly the representative of the Rangers Trust on 90 minutes last night refused to condemn the phrase "dirty Fenian b" on the grounds that the Oxford English Dictionary defined Fenian as a political movement.
Nice try mate but the Oxford English Dictionary also defines it as an offensive name for a Catholic especially in Northern Ireland.
Oxford online dictionary
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waller - in what way is noel claiming I haven't got a clue?
I realise this is a difficult area that divides Celtic fans. I am quite prepared to drop it provided you also stop your personal abuse which you fail to back up with any arguement.
Noel - you maybe right, but with yesterday's developments I feel that Celtic as a club will need to think carefully about its stance on rebel songs. As Paul has said, they will almost certainly come under intense scrutiny, rightly or wrongly.
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Having listened to the SFA guy on the BBC radio program, I don't see that much is set to change here. He doesn't want to take action against Rangers (or Celtic) - he'd rather sidestep this issue and say "we're aiming to educate. In fact, we want to take no action and for the fans to self-police".
I thought that was pathetic. They have it in their power to pressure the fans and the clubs to produce more positive behaviour. Sadly, it's been left to UEFA to do so.
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mcgubligan - I suspect we are broadly in agreement. I am Scottish and have no strong views either way about Irish republicanism. I am perfectly happy for our club and fans to recognise their Irish heritage, and agree with you that there are some who will try and portray the Irish flag as a sectarian symbol.
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Historyreader
Why is saying God Bless the Pope sectarian? It may annoy/anger some of the Rangers support but that is only because of their hatred.
I'm not sticking up for the singing of the Irish National Anthem (although I don't think there is anything wrong with it) - I have spoken to Irish people who say it is offensive to them if not sung in Gaelic - I don't know why it is offensive but thought it was an interesting point.
We certainly do have a problem with a sectarian element. However, if we do have anything on the same level as "up to our knees in fenian blood" it is rarely heard at any audible level at Parkhead and when it is heard it is truelly by a minority unlike the hoards at Ibrox.
Saying this, it's not enough to accept saying we're better than them - we should continue to eradicate it - paying special attention to away grounds.
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Historyreader
Please see my response to Bryce, that's the kind of attack on Celtic fans I mean.
I totally agree that the corruption of the song is a disgrace and should be cut out by all Celtic fans. However, I think lecturing other fans and calling them bigots is unhelpful at best and gives an easy way out for the apologists at worst.
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Martinobhoy
Good shout as Chick Young tried to rehearse that point this afternoon.
Paul
CQN has not always readily sought to challenge Celtic supporters' bigotry.
It's time this blog began to not just echo the voice of some its contributors and begin to campaign against the bigots among the Celtic support.
Just as Fergus McCann stepped up the quality of our response to bigotry through the Social Charter launched over 10 years ago, we now must be willing to take the next steps against the bigots among Celtic fans.
CQN should link directly to the Celtic Social Charter and should also link to anti-racist organisations like Kick It Out, FARE and Show Racism the Red Card.
CQN should be active among supporters groups to take forward such messages.
Just as an aisde, given the evenst this week and the response from Celtic. I notice that there is a new link on the Celtic website which begins "I want..."
I want to find out what Celtic are doing to challenge racism and sectarianism, sadly there is no such link there.
Are we really proud to be anti-bigots?
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On the Fields of Athenry debate, let me first say that I do not add in the words Sinn Féin or IRA when I sing it and would prefer if others would do the same.
However, chanting the name of a politcal party is NOT sectarian. Sinn Féin has representatives elected to the European Parliament, Dáil Éireann, the House of Commons (where they don't take their seats), the Stormont assembly and councils all over Ireland. Whether you agree with its politics is neither here nor there, it is not sectarian to chant that party's name. Political yes, sectarian no.
Don't allow red herrings to deflect us from the substance of what UEFA is investigating – anti-Catholicism spewing out of the mouths of Rangers fans.
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Fact of the matter is that Rangers' problem with UEFA is their problem and theirs alone.
It's worth noting as well that Rangers are being investigated for chanting which was anti-Catholic.
Pure bigotry in other words.
I also believe, someone can correct me, that one of the UEFA delegates was Greek, someone in other words from a totally different country and culture, yet someone still able to pick up on what was being chanted. I think it's fair to say then that we're not dealing with subtleties here, but with something that's quite blatant.
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Bryce-
no offence intended-
sometimes these discussions get taken the wrong way
and I think the situation re- rangers is where the focus is at the moment.
Anyway here is Jimmy Johnstone Superstar coutesy of Wee Drew.
noel.
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burtman - you're absolutely correct, but you're arguement doesn't apply to IRA chants. They are not a political party.
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None taken noel. I do think a debate somewhere about this whole subject is now inevitable, and it would be better if Celtic set the agenda in a proactive manner.
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Any Celtic fan singing "soon there'll be no protestants at all " is a bigot pure and simple. Let's not just pretend that it is only disgraceful, it's worse than that.
I've found that is always helpful to challenge racism and bigotry.
Are you willing to challenge the bigots wearing Celtic colours?
I am not going to apologise for being anti-bigotry whether it's a bigot wearing a celtic scarf or a Rangers bigot at Ibrox.
Part of the solution ... or part of the problem?
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As a protestant raised Celtic supporter I don't have a problem with "roamin' in the gloamin'" I've certainly never felt threatened by it or found it supremacist. I don't have any time for King Billy or John Knox and my guess is it probably is great to be a Roman Catholic. It's great to be a Hare Krishna too by the look of them. You don't have to be Catholic to feel affronted by the Rangers support, home or away. I haven't had any trouble from Celtic fans as a result of my long abandoned religion but I've been kicked and insulted by Rangers fans in full view of the police, which as a tax payer I find doubly galling. As far as the rebel songs go I would be sad to see them go. The first record my parents bought was after they got married was "Irish Rebel Songs" by the Freedom fighters - great songs that lit up my childhood, probably the same songs Liam Clancy taught that well known bigot Bob Dylan to play when he first arrived in New York. I do have problems with the add ons to "The Fields" and "Willie Maley" but mainly because they're so stupid. The birds were NOT on the provisional wing, and Willie Maley DIDN'T give us the IRA. I also have problems with changing "James" to "Paul" in that song, but that's another story.
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Hi all
Just a quick football diversion
Under 19s today at Barrowfield
Celtic 2 Hibs 0
Smashing game - Baltic weather
Hail hail
Estadio
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1-0 Rangers (Boyd), 0-0 Hearts
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Historyreader@3:21
Agree 100%
Agree 100%
Yes I am willing to do so but don't think I have the right to demand the same from others.
Nor should you
I'm sorry but that's the sort of trite nonsense that simplifies the debate to the level of the playground.
No one is arguing that we should ensure that our club is anti-racist and anti-sectarian ie open to all as we always have been. My issue is when one faction of the support feel that they are able to attack another. For example I felt that after the Mark Walters incident that humilated us all, we the support eradicated racism on that scale (although I concede not entirely) from Celtic Park. I think we can do the same again I just don't agree that attacking people is the way to do it.
You obviously feel that confrontation is the way forward, I don't. Agree to disagree.
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Putting the sectarian debate behind us what is the SFA going to do about the constant booing of Lennon, Keane and McGeady. The only reason they get booed at EVERY ground in Scotland is because they are Irish, or in McGeady's case chosen to play for the Republic. The SFA are doing SFA about this yeat it is clearly racist. What about dropping a line to UEFA on this?
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The only problem with tomorrow is that because it is an away game Celtic have limited control over the support, I hope we encourage the stewards & police to eject anyone singing dodgy stuff.
Celtic have done much over the past 10 years to eradicate the problem from parkhead and have been very successful, maybe too successful considering the atmosphere at times. A list of recommended songs in the match program may help a lot of the support know what songs are acceptable.
I would think that if any of the away support tomorrow are stupid enough to sing any dodgy songs then Celtic must find them and if they are season ticket holders immediately tear up their season book and if they have come from a supporters bus then ban the entire supporters club from receiving tickets.
Celtic must protect the goodwill that has been built up all over europe by the support, strong arm tactics to deal with this problem must be deployed to prevent us from being dragged into the myre with the others.
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Noel90
Thanks for that - the goal against Man Utd was the only one I was privileged to see the wee man score in person and so it brought a huge smile to my face!!!
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i was going to put a bet on the press asking strachan about tfod's big money windfall. wish i'd done it!!
they're so predictable and that's why GS has them sussed.
i'm sure the next question he gets asked is about the bigotry from fans.
i hope he answers it in the way the question deserves.
Emjay
ps...PLEASE DON'T LISTEN TO THESE SO CALLED JOURNALISTS ON THE RADIO.
YOU'RE JUST ENCOURAGING THEM!
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The majority of rebel singers at Celtic games are not bigots, and probably ignorant as to what it means to be a Republican as well. They just want to express their Irish identity. I think they don't realise that Republicans do not have a monopoly on Irishness and they also think it sounds a bit hard to be singing about the IRA.
I have no problem with the songs, Ive sang them myself, but I just wish we as a club could divorce Republicanism from Irishness. Go and find another platform to express your support for Sinn Fein and/or the IRA. Leave Celtic to the Celts!
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Paul67 and the rest...(Im new to posting but gr8 site..too addictive)
I listened to the Radio Scotland debate. I, in fact, totally understand G Smiths point. Rangers are not the only club with a set of fans who sing derogatory chants. He never “dragged” Celtic in to it. He used us and Hearts as an example. Let’s not wear blinkers in this debate. I indeed could be offended when Hearts fans shout at me to go home to my “Glasgow Slum”. I equally could also be offended when Rangers sing ftp or “fenian” whatever. The point is, I’m not. As Gordon Smith said, it’s the people who sing these things that are the idiots. There are idiots across society, not just rangers fans. There are indeed idiots who are Celtic fans believe it or not. Stop the media paranoia nonsense. Celtic were only mentioned in a debate, and why not? I can well believe that ppl shout at G Smith and call him a dirty Orange B as he says. He never said Celtic should be investigated by UEFA, he merely pointed out that all fans are guilty of shouting derogatory chants, and where does the buck stop?
G Smith is a gentleman who I have had the pleasure of meeting on several occasions. In fact, one of the times I met him was shortly after the Bratislava game and he was talking about how great it was that Celtic were in the UEFA final. There are elements of the media who may be biased against Celtic…. (I can think of one baldy “hoo hoo hoo, Mick Young here!” and a few others.)… But, in the Radio Scotland debate, big J Traynooor (who is often accused of being anti Celtic, when in fact he is just an eediot and an “anti anything”) actually said, “this debate should not involve Celtic”. In other words he “defended” Celtic. No doubt he will still be accused of being anti-celtic, when in fact he just likes controversy to keep his listening figures high.
Keep the heid ppl. Rise above it.
Hail Hail
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Someone mentioned earlier that there was an ipod version of last night's 90 minutes which could be downloaded. Does anyone have link to the download? Don't have Real Radio Player and can't get it either. Please help!
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Doubtless there will be some un-informed rants from media hacks on the need for UEFA to investigate Celtic. Two points need to be made here.
First, as the UEFA spokesman made clear on 90 Minutes, their jurisdiction extends only to European games. Domestic games are the remit of the SFA.
Second, UEFA did carry out an investigation into the actions of Celtic supporters. It took place in 2003, and at the end of it they gave us an award.
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JollyBhoy, what about when Neill Lennon was booed by Celtic fans for passing backwards in a European Game!
Some of the booing aginst Lennon is because he's an effective player. However you are right at every ground including Celtic Park (by away fans) Neil Lennon is subject to racist abuse by some fans.
Neil is the player in the Scottish game that is subject to the greatest racist abuse.
Not if only he'd stick it back to the racists by scoring more wonder strikes!
Emjay
If Gordon is asked about bigoted chanting let's hope he does not adopt the Alex McLeish/ Martin O'Neill answer.
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Paul
As you predicted, it did not take Radio Scotland long to drag Celtic into the sectarian enquiry into TFOD songs and chants.
Gordon Smith does a good job in trying to come across as an articulate and educated individual, however he exposed himself badly by bringing up the Celtic fans singing 'who's the fenian in the blue' at Chris Burke.
If this supposedly educated man cannot (or won't - more likely) see that the Celtic fans sing this song to highlght the irony of the orcs singing about being 'up to our knees in fenian blood' when in their eyes they have a 'fenian' playing in the blue shirts, then it shows that he cannot be seen to be neutral when he brought this matter up to attempt to justify the use of the word 'fenian'.
I emailed Radio Scotland to highlight this but they quickly adopted a 'lets get back to football matters' line rapidly.
All Celtic fans should as you have noted be aware that they will be montoring us very closely....
Lets not give them any ammo to fire back at us.
Ayrtim
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malone19
Why is saying God Bless the Pope sectarian?
1) It is followed by "..and the IRA".
2) Where is the connection between psychopaths who kills innocents in Enniskillen and the religious leader of 1 Billion people and the single most important voice in the world. It is not immediately apparent to me.
3) I would imagine 99% of the people who sing it
a) Have never met the Pope.
b) Have never met a member of the IRA.
c) Haven't been regularly to Mass for 10 years, or since they were a child and their parents forced them to go.
4) It isn't our national anthem. For better or for worse God Save the Queen IS and therefore would be offensive to an Irishman as they would realise that the vast majority of Scottish people who sing it, sing it as a pretext for winding up Rangers fans, as a result are ignorant and belittle often heroic struggles for freedom.
Until we Scots address this issue, i.e., the issue of Scottish nationalism and independence then Celtic fans who sing the Soldiers Song are really not addressing today's issues and as a result look backward.
As backward in fact as those who sing about Derry's Walls.
In fact both factions being backward is exactly what London has planned for the west-of-scotland, divide and rule.
WE (The West of Scotland we, Catholics & Protestants) MUST BE CLEVERER THAN THAT.
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Paul
Who is Zsa Zsa?
fbicfc
You cannot be guilty by association. That is draconian. To punish an entire CSC for the actions of one is unacceptable. Self policing yes, but mass purging no.
firsbyhoop
Ignorance is not an excuse. Remember Lawrence McIntyre referring to 90 Minute Bigots? Pathetic actually.
Looking forward to the footie tomorrow. Should be a good game.
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Hello everybody, been reading avidly but not posted for a few months.
hailhail84
Gordon Smith is guest speaker at a RST dinner tonight. That says more about Mr Smith than the fact he was pleasant to you to your face.
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emu...
zsa zsa is murray.
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pujol...RST???
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Can't help feeling that,no matter how much we protest our innocence,no matter how many incidents which CLEARLY demonstrate that there is ONE sectatrian club in Scotland,we will still,eventually and inevitably get pulled into this sorry debacle,while it may be an exercise in semantics when we talk about what constitutes a rebel song,or what is sectarian,the plain truth is,if we could stop adding in the extras to songs such as Willie Maley and FOA we would go a long way toward giving our critics less of a stick with which to beat us.
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hailhail84
RST is the Rangers Supporters Trust, the political wing of Follow Follow fanzine ;-)
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Emus-
zsa zsa is murray
davros is murray.
darth is murray[just don,t tell D O'V.-WHEREVER HE IS......]
noel.
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This whole thing is such a minefield for debate on CQN, and always has been when it has come up, and yet it is good that we identify the issues and challenge them.
The great name of Celtic must never be compromised and we all have some role to play to keep up the good work started by Fergus all those years ago and indeed going back in history to the very foundation of the club.
I realise that many are calling out for Celtic to take an immediate and pro-active lead on reminding the support of our charter and position as a totally inclusive club regardless of race, creed,colour,ethinic, religious or political persuasion.
However to do so right now is I believe playing in to the hands of the Chick Young's and Gordon Smith's who are desperately seeking a way to extend the analysis of this problem to cover other clubs and more specifically our great club.
I am sure PL is more than aware that many would like to see this issue being a Celtic AND Rangers one rather then the specific target of TFOD
TFOD have no place to hide. At last UEFA have made their stand and the more objective and less slavish commentators like Graham Spiers, Roddy Forsyth and Phil Gordon in The Times today are beginning to tell it like it is.
The only way they can deal with this is to try and deflect some of the issue on to us and widen the scope of the problem.
Celtic need to play this shrewdly and ensure that no opportunity is takn to fall for the bait by jumping in right now to this debate.
Therefore, the role of ensuring that the spotlight remains firmly on the south side and is no way moved over to the east end is to make sure all HOME and AWAY games we do not let any Celtic fans compromise the club in any shape, way or form.
We need to get back to reminding the world of our charter, our distinguished history in being open to all AND our desire to stamp out any idiotic chants/songs that do not embrace fair mindedness and inclusion.
I believe The Mint is genuinely embarrassed by what he calls "The FTP brigade" but his words are empty rhetoric.
He may well say that he wants to put that in the past but the reason UEFA are investigating them is that for all his words he is not actually doing anything purposeful to stamp it out.
UEFA are not stupid, they know that a few idiots can ruin a game watched by 50,000 people but the reason they are looking at this is the fact that at Ibrox it is not a few idiots that are singing the song but a huge majority of the crowd and the owners of the club appear to be helpless or hopeless in sorting it out.
It seems UEFA are taking the view that if you won't sort it out we will!
Every effort now needs to be made to ensure the smelly stuff that TFOD are now in comes nowhere near us under any circumstance.
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I can't help feeling that too many Celtic fans are easily spooked.
While it's always good to keep our own house in order, something that we have been doing for much longer than Rangers, it's Rangers who are going to get punished, not Celtic.
To think any other way is to fall into the 'Old Firm' trap.
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3:58 PM, Emusanorphan
Draconian measures as you call them ARE required, because you can bet your bottom dollar that as soon as a single imbecile starts some song about something that they probably know nothing about we are letting every single rangers supporting bigot off the hook for their behaviour as make no mistake we will be made to look ten times worse than rangers supporters are by the media.
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emu,
I didn't say it was an excuse. There's nothing bigoted about rebel songs, so no excuse needed. What I said was that they should not be sung at Celtic games.
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part of the problem at home games is, the ground is that quiet most of the times!( apart from big games or when wee score), is that the only way it seems the singing starts is when the Irish stuff starts and this is in my opinion a rally call! so the answer is simple lets sing celtic songs and cut out the rebel stuff,Wee no scores of celtic songs that have no sectarion issues, while the tfod, apart from that lennon and mccartney (joke)the blue bells are blue classic every song thay hav has a fenion or f!!! the pope!
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Hailhail84
You mention the debate on Radio Scotland, did you mean the one today or last nights 90 minutes program, if you did not hear the 90 minutes program I suggest you listen again to it and listen to the RST spokesperson being put through hoops be Graham Spiers. He would not condemn the use of the phrase 'Dirty Fenian B*****d' when asked repeatedly.
The RST that Mr Smith is dining with tonight. Mr Smith may like to appear to be a nice bloke but he has a hidden agenda in my humble opinion.
Ayrtim
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I have met the pope nice guy for a german. (oh no UEFA will be after me)
I have met members of the IRA. Some very scarey i must admit, but some very great men and women.
I am proud of my great grandfathers medals from the war of independence. I had a great uncle who unfortuanalty died during the civel war the great scar of 20th century ireland
That said, I detest any sectarian singing. The leaders of the United Irishmen and the Easter rising would condenm any hatred of fellow men through colour or creed.
Celtic is a club steeped in irishness. Irishness because of our struggle for freedom from british occupation and oppression is steeped in Republicanisim.
For those who who don't know republicanisim cuts across creed, colour and financial barriers.
When we sing about the heros of the war against the british we remember true soldiers who fought and died for their country. A country i will remind you which is not yet free. Republicanisim is now using political methods for freedom why should we not sing about them if we want.
I am a season ticket holder and a professional business man but i am also proud to be irish and a republican and not a bigot.
I go to all the away games if any of you guys ever did you would savour some of the best atmospheres around. We are not bigots we are rupublicans and we are celtic.
Accept it and you wont get so wound up. Some of you guys are what makes paradise the worst ground in the SPL PC mad.
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pujol...I don't see the significance of that, any more than I do John Hartson agreeing to give out a prize at my local Catholic Social Club in Paisley.
It doesn't make GSmith anything other than a Rangers fan. And it doesn't make J.Hartson anything other than a nice guy. However I'm sure others could read something else in to it..hail hail
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Atn fbicfc,inregard to your post of 3.41,are you seriously suggesting that any supporters club,even one which contains 49 well behaved fans and one person who misbehaves should be banned from seeing Celtic?.Pleae,take a deep breath,think about what you advocate,the next step could be to simply eject from the ground an entire section because two or three people let the side down,you may be sitting in said section,does that make you culpable?
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ayrtim...was talking about the debate today...will listen to the 90minutes debate...Spiers is a top guy...and from what i have heard the RST spokesman aint..he is what I would call an idiot..but the difference with him and GSmith is that Smith actually condemed the use of the word fenian..he wasn't in any way supporting it
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Apologies
In my last post one of the paragraphs suggested or implied that the more observant and objective commentators like Spiers, Forsyth and Gordon wouild want to deflect the debate and bring us in to it.
Sorry- I didn't mean that - I was of course referring to the less objective members of the fourth estate like Chick Young who are desperate to extend this issue.
I did not mean to lump the more astute journalists mentioned above with guys like Chick Young.
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pggtips my friend (sorry Kojo!)
Can you answer that again?!?!?
Why is saying "God bless the Pope" Sectarian?
None of your answers, answer the question. Did I say anything about the IRA?
Aside from that, the IRA have done terrible things, they have also done many good things similar to the British army. However, we should not include it in any of our songs if only to negate the negative connotations.
I don't know about you but God Save the Queen certainly is NOT my national anthem!
Certain songs should not be sung at Celtic games with lines such as "soon there'll be no protestants at all" however the media seem to be succeeding in making many Celtic fans think it is sectarian or bigoted to sing Irish songs i.e. Fields of Athenrye. Where in reality it is bigoted to think these songs should not be allowed to sing.
We should be able to celebrate our Irish roots and heritage and the Irish links of the club. That doesn't mean it has to be in a sectarian manner.
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I think we all know that there will be some idiots that will travel to the game tommorrow thinking 'ill sing whatever i want' and then launch into a chorus of 'cheer up alex mcleish' or something else inapropriate.Its up to the sensible MAJORITY not to take the bait.Lets stick to CELTIC songs and leave the bigotry to our backwards neighbours.
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PS. Add-ins to The Fields ect. wreck them, there's simply no need!
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Hailhail84
I got the impression GS was trying to make out that the Celtic fans use of the word 'fenian' made it less offensive.... I did not openly hear him condemn the use of the word 'fenian', although I may have missed it...
Ayrtim
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Evening Paul,fellow tims(am I allowed to say that?) and Edward.
Bryce,Historyreader,Mcgubligan,Malone,et al.
Before we decide any grand plan to rid ourselves of supporters we don't agree with,maybe we should get a couple of things straight.
Maybe a ruler and a spirit level
The noun of sectarian is Sectary.
The meaning of which is as follows
member of a sect,esp.of the Independents and Presbyterians.
Didn't know that myself until a few minutes ago.
If there is going to be a concerted effort to rid the Celtic support of "Bigotry and Sectarianism" surely we should know what it is we are trying to eradicate.
Historyreader to paraphrase yourself. "Either you are with us or agin us" is childish in the extreme and your statement that saying God Bless The Pope(or God Save The Queen,for that matter) is somehow either bigoted or sectarian is a perfect example of why this is so.
I do not believe,singing or chanting about any Political party or organisation,past or present,or any religious or political leaders is in any way either bigoted or sectarian.
I believe chanting or singing support for organisations or individuals who promote hatred of someone based on either their political persuasion,religion or colour is both bigoted and sectarian.
I believe singing derogatory remarks about anybodies religion or race to be both.
Before we start wading into this,or putting the boot into Rangers for that matter,maybe we should at least get a definitive answer(legal?) to what both words actually mean,as this seems to be more important than everybody having their own idea of what constitutes bigotry and sectarianism and then,based on that idea,deciding who should and should not be disallowed from attending Celtic games.
PGGTIPS 3.56pm It doesn't matter what you say after God Bless The Pope.
It still does not make it a sectarian statement.You may well be diametrically opposed to the pope being blessed,but there is absolutely nothing sectarian in the statement.
Motherwell,Livingston,Dunfermline and Rangers winning at the moment.
3-1 Celtic tomorrow,and I predict there may be a couple of tunes to do with the Emerald Isle being sung.
Long may it continue.
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I'm listening to 90 minutes from last night through a link from an earlier poster and I dont think I can listen for a minute longer.
The David Edgar character is making my skin crawl.
If he represents your average rangers fan, then god help us all.
Best behaviour tommorrow Lhads, dont let down our club because the knives are being sharpened as we speak.
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4:12 PM, johnnyquest
Let me put it to you like this:
What happens IF celtic get investigated and get banned from playing in Europe or behind closed doors with no supporters?
I am all in favour of self-policing but there has to be an incentive to do it and to be frank the threat of losing your season book or right to tickets is a big incentive.
It will be the minority that can cause the problems for Celtic not the majority and as such the problem can be controlled and eradicated by setting a few examples.
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gweedorebhoy,
I agree with you up to a point. Like it or not, Celtic is A Scottish club, playing in Scotland. Many people in Scotland, Catholic and Protestant, find rebels songs unpalatable because of the history of the last 30-40 years.
To use an analogy, I would not go to the home of a Protestant friend and sing rebel songs at him. When we play in Scotland, and especially at away grounds, we are in their homes. It is not bigoted to sing rebel songs, but if our hosts find it offensive, it is only good manners not to offend them.
Hail Hail!
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malone19
God Bless The Pope
Mainly because it is completely unnecessary and foolish for Celtic fans to sing it.
Firstly, it is very likely there is no God.
Secondly, if you believe in God and I don't, but if I did, I would imagine that God would bless my friend and my foe, a non-sectarian version would be...
"God Bless the Pope, and the opposition we are playing today!!"
Thirdly, why do we care if God Blesses the Pope or not?
Will the world stop tomorrow if God doesn't give a damn about the Pope?
Will Celtic win 3-0 as opposed to losing 3-0 if God blesses the Pope, doesn't bless the Pope, or doesn't exist at all, therefore unable to bless anyone?
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Gweedorebhoy,I am going to say something i never thought I would say.
I agree wholeheartedly with your post.
Kano
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Kano - I completely realise that rebel songs are not sectarian, and I would expect UEFA to make the same distinction. Within Scotland, however, I do not expect this arguement to win.
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Welcome hailhail84 and thanks.
Emusanorphan, Zsa Zsa:
“look at my diamonds da’ling”, extravagant flaunting of financial strength in better times.
She wears a wig.
Gweedorebhoy, I have heard your argument from the other side. They believe they have a right to object to the Pope, whom they believe represents a threat to their traditions.
Whether they are right or wrong does not matter any more, they will suffer as a result of it.
The question you have missed is this; will the SFA interpret Celtic fans using the word “orange” to describe Alex McLeish, someone who is not in the orange order, as a derogatory term for protestants?
I believe they will not pass up this opportunity, and will select others if this is not immediately available to them.
As a result, Celtic will be dragged into this and will suffer. Some Rangers fans still think they are in the right, many Celtic fans will think they are in the right, but so what. By then Celtic will be in trouble.
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ive said it before and been slated but ill say it again the buckie bhoys are an embarassement.
problem is they are also,now, more than ever, dangerous!
they will be bevvied up tomoro and will 'sing whatever we want'.
i was accused of being an uber celt because i found these guys to be an embarrasement.
now, it appears paul is asking for them to be reigned in.
sing whatever you want in your own home/at parties,etc but the biased media are desperate to lump us into this UEFA debate.
ABSOLUTELY DESPERATE! and its the buckie bhoys who will help them!
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Firsbyhoop,good manners and not offending people is something you worry about at the dinner table.
The debate is about sectarianism and bigotry.
What's next,ban people for swearing?
Ban people for wearing that horrible bumble bee top we had about ten years ago?
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noel
Without the crisps. Actually reading it again, what I said last night makes sense. On the beer again of course.
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pggtips
That is just sad and pathetic!
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pggtips,
unnecessary and foolish? That still does not make it sectarian or bigoted.
AS for very likely there is no God, this is not the place for a theological discussion on the existence of God. Suffice to say, I think a lot of people will disagree.
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BTW the IRA and other Republican organizations are not sectarian. They are open to all, whatever religion or colour you are they do not discrimanate, as long as you are commited to a 32 county Ireland.
However singing about "soon no protestants at all" is sectarian but singing the boys of the old brigade is political and its not even about the Provisional IRA.
The Huns can sing about King Billy, so what. King Billy was backed by the Pope who was worried that King James would be a threat to Rome. So if your a Roman Catholic you should get behind the rejoicing of King Billy and give it loads with the Huns :-)
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pggtips,
once again my jaw hits the floor when reading one of your posts!
Peat
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Gods a busy bee blessing the Pope saving the Queen. The sfa have previous where Celtics concerned ie attempt to ban the tri colour from Celtic park. Who said to appease tyranny and aggression is to play into the hands evil, well if no one said it someone should have done. This has all come to the fore due to the exploits of the invited select attending the San siro. You cannot go to Rome and sing what they sing and behave the way they do. As they are about to find out. Dilution is the key dilution.
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Bryce,maybe we should be concentrating our efforts on changing this perception.
Surely the insistence on Irish songs being banned is bigoted,rather than the singing of them?
Kano
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hi all great site, long time reader first time poster hail hail
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Bhoy Molloy,
Very droll!!
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Kano,
so we can be as offensive as we want? It doesn't matter because we're at a Celtic game?
Manners maketh the man as they say. I'm not saying we should go around giving it "after you Claude" but anyone who goes around deliberately offending folk in any situation is a moron.
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Kano
Exactly!
Also, what are people meaning when they say "rebel song" that is important to clarify.
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Noel 3.16pm Thanks for posting the Jimmy Johnstone link - The wee man defines the term superstar. Class.
Makes you feel proud to be a tim.
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FirstyHoop
I think his point is that why is it offensive? Ok, if you are directly offending someone then that is not right.
However!
If someone is offended because people are Irish or Catholic then that is their fault and it only makes them in the wrong and indeed bigoted.
And believe me... many people are anti-catholic and anti-Irish... especially in Scotland.
Are we being offensive because we are Catholics or because we are Irish/have Irish roots?
This is how the some in power would like society to be and to a certain extent they are succeeding.
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Never ever thought I'd ever be saying this but here goes:
Come on Hearts. Let's have a goal.
Mea culpa
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Paul, Emjay, Noel
Thanks for that. Was worried for a bit that it might have been that babe from Hector's House!
fbicfc
If I chose to travel from Darlington to Easter Road on a Supporters bus, I am not responsible for the actions of the other 48 travellers. If one is guilty of an offence, then by your measures, I have to be punished by being refused tickets for future games? Draconian in the extreme.
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Firsbyhoop,what you find offensive has nothing to do with what "folk" find offensive.Everyone has their own idea of offensive.
I learnt most of the Irish songs I know from a Protestant Rangers fan I grew up next door to.Damn good singer he was too. RIP Duncan.
So please do not feel you you have the authority to speak as the majority.
Personally believe providing a safe environment for your family "maketh the man".
Good manners and being completely inoffensive I will leave to Librarians,they get paid for it.
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Now that Hearts have dropped yet more points and allowed Rankers to creep within five points of second place, if Rankers win there final ten games (including 2x against Hearts), they'll take the second CL spot. Not likely, I know, but still, had hoped Hearts would put up more of a fight.
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I view todays results as a disappointment. We should be good enough to stay out front but we really want Hearts to finish second.
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The comparison of our behavior to that of Rangers is like comparing a bump at the traffic lights with a stock car race.
Its a question of scale. Racist behavior at home is what its all about as far as UEFA are concerned.
Interms of behavior and outlook i would compare Celtic fans with Republic of Ireland fans and Rangers fans with England fans.
Now if anyone tried to say that Irelands fans were as bad as Englands fans they would be laughed at,yet that is what gets suggested all the time in this country with regard to Celtic and Rangers.
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i think tfod will drop points before the split. its just whether hearts can capitalise. not sure if i care!
more importantly its a chance for us to go 15 clear tomorrow.
let's get this league won quick and then we can sit back and watch the drama unfold below us.
Emjay
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Malone19,
read my earlier posts today where I have already said more than once that Republican/rebel songs are not offensive.
But Irish does not mean Republican. You have every right to be a Republican, but there are many reasonable people in this country who have every right to have very different feelings about the IRA etc.
Being Irish and to a lesser extent Catholic, is not a choice. Being Republican is.
Being anti-Irish or anti-Catholic is bigoted. Being anti-Republican is not.
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Get the feeling Hearts will now struggle.
They play each other at Tynecastle soon don't they?
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4:50 PM, Emusanorphan
yep, only way of making sure the idiots are controlled effectively. Supporters clubs should be responsible for the actions of their members as they are the ones supplying the tickets.
This is not the time for Celtic to let their guard down. We must be seen to be whiter than white, we do not want to be dragged into this issue with rangers.
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The slaughtering of David Edgars by Britney last night on 90 minutes shows the nonsense of arguing semantics on this issue, and yet that is exactly what has been happening on our site today.
Arguing about whether or not its OK to sing God Bless the Pope isn't the point. Is anybody seriously suggesting that it is sung by devout Catholics in a moment of religious ecstasy? If it isn't why is it being sung at a football match?
Its a tribal chant pure and simple as is the (ab)use of the Union Flag by our frinds at Ibrox. As a tribal chant it is promulgating the divisions within the West of Scotland and could easily be dealt with by football authorities that choose to do so. No point in semanticsnow , the UEFA investigation means that we're at a seminal moment and need to get our act together.
Parkhead is much better now and rarely can chants be heard that are offensive. As has been pointed out many times though the away fans aren't the same and whilst there support is tremendous, some of the songs are offensive and easily described as 'discriminatory'. At that point we can repeat all the semantic points we like but it'll be to no avail.
For the record, I was born and bred in Glasgow from an Irish Catholic background which I'm proud of (Donegal) but Celtic are also an inclusive club.....that includes having British soldiers as fans eg!!
OK major tin hat on now.
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fbicfc,
talking about idiots....
Ach you aren't even worth it.
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fbicfc
Utter mince! If the guy next to you at CP sings an offensive song then you too are guilty? Supporters Buses are a very cost effective way of travelling to games for those who cannot afford cars or do not drive. Your suggestion smacks of Social Apartheid.
If we win our next 3 games versus Hibs, Inverness and Livvi and Hearts do not win against TFOD next week then we can win the League against Hearts on 5th April.
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Kano,
I speak for no-one but myself. If you don't agree with me that's fine.
I don't think CP an appropriate place for the singing of rebels songs. Neither do I find them offensive personally.
I also beleive offending people unnecessarily is stupid. A "man" who does that will quickly make enough enemies to make his family unsafe. Very stupid.
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Fencelt,wouldn't dismiss it as semantics.
We have to know what is breaking the rules/law and what is not.
You say "Parkhead is much better now and rarely can chants be heard that are offensive"
Parkhead isn't much better now,it has the atmosphere of an insurance seminar,and you barely hear chants of any description,particualrly as most people aren't even there with fifteen minutes still to go.
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All - not sure how the Scottish media portrayed the Rangers fans behaviour in Benidorm. Here is a link to a Spanish newspaper site that covers the Costa Blanca area. This is the front page that greets us expats in shops throughout the Valencian province:
Benidorm Riot
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Kano,
Quite frankly , nah won't lower myself to bandy words with an obvious fool.
Emusanorphan, hope you will enjoy NOT being able to watch games in the future because the idiot from a supporters bus stops EVERYONE from being able to watch due to their stupidity.
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Agree with you entirely that its too quiet at Parkhead now Kano and hope the Junglebhoys continue their excellent work.
As for what is acceptable or not we won't get a list of songs, the criterion will be is it discriminatory? The definition of that will ultimately be a matter for lawyers and not this forum I guess.
In the meantime we need to get on with enjoying being Celtic football fans without bringing political or religious issues into the manner of our support which could be offensive to reasonable minded folk in Britain.
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As a long time exile in England, my sad perception is that Scotland is still a country riddled with racism and bigotry.
The one comfort I take, is that the club I support is and always has been inclusive of all colours and creeds. The same cannot be said of all our supporters.
Reading this thread it strikes me that we are getting into the exact same arguments on sematics that were rightly ridiculed by Graeme Speirs on 90 minutes.
What does 'Fenian' mean - what does 'God Bless the Pope' mean - what does chanting the IRA represent - what do we think whe Paulo di Canio gives a fascist salute?
The reality is that it is all absurd and has no place in any football ground.
I will make a confession, I don't see Celtic play live very often these days. On the occasions I do watch them, I genuinely believe that our supporters attitudes have improved dramatically since the 70's and 80's and the height of the IRA - but it is still there and should be lamented not justified by hiding behind arguments on semantic definitions of words or phrases.
Celtic are a Scottish club with Irish roots. I personally grew out of that Glasgow Catholic phase of 'wanting to be Irish' when I was in my teens - I am quite proud to be Scottish and I am proud of Celtic.
In reality, many Celtic supporters from Glasgow are mongrels, coming from a background of mixed marriages, forefathers who have 'turned' their faith etc. often for the love of another human being - that is certainly reflected in my own background.
With all that in mind, I have as little time for Irish supremacy or Catholic supremacy as I have for the putrid attitudes that pervade Ibrox.
So let's not kid ourselves by also hiding behind dictionary defintions. Rangers problems are significantly worse than ours - but we shouild also set our own house in order.
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Firsbyhoop 5.15,
Your first sentence was great.Sadly went downhill quickly from there.
Obviously you are a "man",and I am stupid.
Oh and I am also a moron.
You know what is offensive and what is not.
And you have decided what is suitable to be sung at Parkhead and what is not.
Why do you bother coming to a DISCUSSION FORUM when you know you are right and you know what is good for everybody else already?
And by the way,my family has not been threatened,so my idea of being offensive and manners,while obviously being different from yours,seems to be perfectly okay with everybody I have ever met.
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fbicfc
Did you know that the FBI are responsible for carrying out policies you adhere to? Prison Camps in an illegally occupied foreign territory. Camp X Ray and Delta housed Prisoners who are guilty by association. Taliban = Arabic Moslem. Arabic Moslem = Taliban. Guilty by association. Same principal used by South African Police Force against Blacks = ANC "terrorist. Policy also used by Nazis against Resistance and Police in N. Ireland against Nationalist Community. Guilt by association. Same principal.
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murrays fear of the rangers supporters trust is obvious.....he invites individuals as openly sectarian as mark dingwall to meet with him at ibrox.....
...this individual has had his sectarian bile published all over the infamous follow follow web site , murray will be well aware of this as he is so sensitive to all aspects of his and rangers public profile....
there is not, an never has been, an equivalent act of our chairman entertaining such an odious element.....
if murray wants to keep on having cosy chats with these bigots, especially as it was to justify the failure to produce signings in january, and not to threaten them with removal of their season tickets, then he deserves everything uefa throw at him....
he could and should be doing a lot more to rid his club of the thousands of his own supporters who sing about totally inappropriate matter for a sports event....
equally, if we have any support who sing about sectarian bigotry then they should be banned for life as well.....
even if we only have a relatively minor proble, it is still a problem...the club need to continue it's good work in making it clear this is not acceptable.....and to enforce the strongest sanctions against those who are guikty....
the media are not wrong to say that clubs other than rangers have a problem....they are very wrong to indicate the scale anywhere else is remotely comparable...however the scottish media don't make a blind bit of difference in this ...uefa know the difference between a few idiots and thousands singing sectarian bile and acting violently in uefa competitions...
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Paul,
Have you heard anything about major investment in the club over the next couple of weeks?
Willie Haughey's name has been mentioned to me as being the one that is looking to invest.
Not sure how valid this story is though.
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Emusanorphan
I think fbicfc's idea is that we self-police - if someone is out of order we turn round and ask them to stop, if they don't we get them removed. The problem with this is that in some cases it is very dangerous, pulling someone up about being out of order could easily end in violence.
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Fencelt,the people who are making an issue of this are UEFA.
They obviously have a criteria for what they would consider as breaking the rules of any game under their jurisdiction.
HamptonTim,if what we are hearing now,that the dossier on Rangers has been getting compiled for far longer than anybody previously realised,is true,then the statement from Murray condemning his "FTP brigade" may well have been more calculated than heartfelt.
And may only have been uttered to distance the club from the bigoted chants.
UEFA WILL have clear rules on what is acceptable and what is not.
These are the rules we must follow.
I am not in any way defending Bigoted or Sectarian chants.
I also happen to think that the Rangers Trust guy went a lot further in his condemnations than I was expecting.
Spiers was good,but he refused to give the guy credit for the things he did condemn.
Not saying I agree with the Rangers guy as far as the Fenian thing went.If the song was using the word Fenian in it's true sense(which it is not,as it has a double meaning to Scottish and Irish) I would have to say that he had a point.And you can hardly expect the guy to go on National Radio and condemn the song as bigoted,when UEFA will be watching and listening to every utterance concerning them.He may also be aware that it is this particular song which they are likely to get in trouble for.
You may well wish to dismiss the line of allowable songs as semantics,but we had better find out where the line is.
Wiping out singing about ours and the club's history "just in case" is to me, not on.
Stop the bigots I do agree with,but turning the grounds into morgues in case someone may be offended,I do not
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In addition to my previous link, here is another Spanish site that details how a hotel was flooded thanks to an Orc:
hotel damage
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HamptonTim
While being overtly Irish or British/English may get up each set of supports noses it does only that. I get annoyed with all the Union Jacks and England flags the Rangers support carry and I don't doubt they feel the same about the Tri-colours. However, just because it annoys me doesn't mean we should have it barred. Celebrating ones religion may well annoy opposite fans but you cannot stop it just to make everything in the garden rosy.
Derogitery remarks towards others is a different matter - you cannot (and probably should not) ban people celebrating their own identities but desicrating others should be eradicated. Them singing Rule Britannia p*sses me off but I can put up with it.
What I should not need to put up with is "up to our knees in fenian blood" just as they should not need to put up with "soon there'll be no protestants at all".
Stopping people annoying the opposition indirectly is a completely different debate. Directly offending them through words of hate should not be allowed.
On another note, you say you are proud to be Scottish...
Well as you say Scotland is riddled with racism and bigotry. I don't think racism as big a problem (although maybe that's because there's less of a divide) but sectarianism and bigotry goes right to the top - amongst our media, governments, laws and authorities. I am not proud to be Scottish, it can be a terrible place to live if you open your eyes to it.
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Malone
fbicfc is not advocating self policing. I support that. He wants an entire CSC to be denied access to tickets (banned from watching Celtic) if ONE is guilty of offensive signing/behaviour. Guilty by association. Beggars belief.
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PLG joins RFC on three year contract - offical.
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They've announced le Guen. 3 year deal. Interesting times ahead.
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Welcome Boyle 1888, you have a doppelganger
TimOTay, heard no such story, and would doubt the chances. Celtic do not need the money at the moment.
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Kano, why would not singing any political or religious songs turn the ground into a morgue? Maybe we could then sing the De Profundis?
Seriously though Kano, we've plenty of Celtic songs to sing, so no need for a morgue. UEFA are defining this as racism and racism is defined by the perception of the victim; ie if you believe you've been racially abused then it is likely to be classified as a racist incident.
In this context if other folk perceive some of the songs as being offensive then it is likely to be interpreted by authorities as such.
BTW LeGuen's arrival at Ibrox has just been confirmed...a three year deal not two years as reported last week.
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Paul
Heard the same story suggested by TimOTay myself last year. WH to purchase DD's shares?
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Paul - I know you forecasted that Graham Roberts would be the next Rangers' manager and, like the rest of us, did not see why PLG would want to got to Ibrox based on his other options. Do you have any thoughts on how this will play ot e.g a MON type revival based on good man-management?
All the best from a sunny Spain.
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Will Mr Le Guen's brother need to change from his work clothes to visit him ?
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Coming from Ayrshire it might come as no surprise that I was born in a Protestant household. My father is one of the most virulently anti-catholic/anti-irish bigots you could ever meet, he shares these views with my maternal gandmother; My maternal grandfather was an Orangeman and....... a Celtic supporter who introduced me to Celtic when I was 3. Work that one out- certainly messed with my head. Dont know why I told you all that.
I think it is important to get a sense of perspective, to accept history and to remember that fitba is predominantly a working class sport. I think fans should be able to abuse, offend, goad and wind each other up. But the time for Discriminatory abuse has passed.
However, to suggest that there is no place in football for religion and politics for me is political correctness gone too far. I have no problem with people blessing the pope or the queen (tho I do neither) or the Irish National Anthem and FOA -let them sing swing low sweet chariot, rule britania and their song about "rebellious scots to crush". But I do think the time for singing about the IRA has also passed. I think in this age Celtic fans have to be clever in expressing their Irish, catholic, scottish, inclusive roots in a distinctly celebratory manner. My opinion only.
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Sir Paul and my dear friend, TimoTay,
There is a Billowing Cloud of Smoke, circulating Lazily over the Celtic Boardroom.
Naturally, where there be Smoke.. the source is Always.. Incandescence.
Celtic's Burgeoning Success,has Not Gone Unnoticed.
As the Parkhead Future Brightens, the the Stock will attract,more and more Interest from Sophisticated INVESTORS........
One of whom, is the subject of Your Inquiry.
Celtic in Europe, will create a much more Appetizing Atmosphere.......one, in which the value of their Securities Can Blossom.
A DOUBLING IN VALUE of such, can not be DISCOUNTED!
I will go further....... I predict a TRIPLING IN their worth........ should Celtic Definitely avoid a Prerequisite Qualifier and enter the Euro Cup Proper.
Ineluctably,any investment is not without risk........
So, I am DUTY BOUND TO ADD THE CAVEAT......... THIS IS NOT A RECOMMENDATION TO PURCHASE CELTICFC SHARES.......
It is only for Public EDIFICATION in Possible SPECULATION.
To the Cognoscenti, this is indeed a Chance to Grab the Elusive BRASS RING!
Hibernian 0 Celtic 56
Hail! Hail!
Kojo.
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Whitedoghunch-
are you saying that tomorrow will be the other Monsieur Le Guens' busy day ...?
noel.
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Fencelt,where is the story on LeGuen posted?
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It was announced on Radio Scotland Kano.
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I do hope the suggestion that W.Haughey is to buy DD's shares is nonsense. Such a move would be catastrophic for our club. Trust me.
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Thanks fencelt,it is now up on Sporting Life and Sky Sports.
LeGuen states "the club have a proud history and tradition"
mmmmmmm
Paul,
you didn't stick a fifty on Graham Roberts did you?
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noel90
indeed- he is employed by the same company as mr keevins brother
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Sir Paul,
I know there is no need to impart this information to you......
Please ignore.
Celtic Fc. are a PUBLIC LIMITED CO.
And as such, ANY MEMBER OF THE INVESTING PUBLIC,can purchase ANY AMOUNT OF THE CELTIC SECURITY FLOAT, on the OPEN MARKET......of course, there is a Maximum Amount...But I see no need to complicate this EXPOSITION.
Suffice to say, there is NO NEED to Consider the Shares Held by DEMETRIUS in THIS part of the EQUATION.....
On behalf of CERTAIN OTHER INTERESTED PARTIES......... I MYSELF......"COULD"...............THROUGH AN INTERMEDIARY, of course.... Have Acquired a Substantial Interest in the Celtic Stock, extant.
That shall remain a MOOT POINT.
However........
This Advice is being offered....only under.... ADVISEMENT.
Hibernian0 Celtic 61.
Hail! Hail!
Kojo.
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Are you guy's sure le Guen's brother is a priest? There was an interview with his mother in a paper this morning and she never mentions him. She's really proud of the dentist and the driving instructor though. She's a bit surprised Paul made it in football because Gilles, the driving instructor, was always the footballer in the family. She's the Mayor by the way. Of course it was the Record so maybe they just made that up. She really didn't seem to like Paul much though, so that suggests it might be true.
Anyway, what I came on to say is that next year's SPL is looking pretty exciting if Hearts hold on for 2nd and re-invest. No way will Romanov let Rix and Duffy take Hearts into the Champions league. With three serious teams all going for the title maybe we'll start to get a bit of atmosphere going at home again. I'm really looking forward to it. It'll make the Champions league tougher though. I don't see much "resting" going on.
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SweetShunshukesBadassSong
no I am not sure
I never read this anywhere so I am taking it on info from a friend.
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Denia Bhoy, Le Guen is an interesting appointment.
For a start, he is a low risk manager with enough experience to cope in the job.
He will be dependent on how much money Rangers can provide, and I make no assumptions that will be enough. Success will be winning the league next season, this is what Rangers have bet their future retail revenue on.
If he fails, Rangers should be weaker, and Celtic stronger, the following season.
Hearts have an important role still to play. If they can hold onto second place, they will deny Rangers a crucial amount of money for next season. The Hearts – Rangers game at Tynecastle next week is huge.
There is no reason to assume he will have the effect on Rangers MON had on Celtic. He took over the French champions and kept them there by spending more money than anyone else – Lyon are among the highest TV earning clubs in Europe.
He seemed to hit a barrier in Europe, failing to reach the ‘big’ rounds that he spending possibly deserved.
Celtic have been planning next season for some time, and have been expecting Rangers to have Le Guen – they have also been expecting Rangers to pull a better retail deal out of the bag than they have.
We will be stronger next season, they have a steep hill to climb.
‘Nuff said Kojo.
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Two things I should add Denia Bhoy:
If Rangers fail to catch Celtic having spent this money, they are a busted flush. It will take them a very long time to sort their finances out.
Celtic must not get into an ‘arms race’ with them this summer. They are stepping into another boom and bust period, we need to stick to our own plan, irrespective of how much money they spend - even if it means losing the league next season (not that I think it will).
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5:41 PM, Emusanorphan
You seem to be trying to fit your obvious political views concerning 'Guilt by association' into a discussion on handling an unhealthy section of support, the option of banning some individuals for breaking the club charter is a million miles from the political stance you are taking.
If you read my comments from the start you will hopefully be able to interpret them as being for the good of Celtic. I am advocating a strong stance by Celtic to ensure we do not give ANY ammunition to the media.
You seem to be willing to allow the minority of idiots the right to dictate what happens to majority of the Celtic support.
Your view seems to be one of 'It's not my problem' well as they say If your not part of the solution, your part of the problem.
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all Le Guen is a good signing, he will have them playing football and will clear out the crap, as for tradition ( a sectarian policy of not signing someone from a specified religion!! )
What I can t understand is what is the attraction to plg? Murray must have a sweet tongue as he could have gone too many other clubs with more money, dont get it
on the sectarian stuff, Rangers actively encourage it of that there is no doubt, the pre match histronics with the flags and the flute bands eminating from the tannoys make it sound like a the warm up to the 12th of July. If we did a similar thing with flags ect we would be slaughtered, think sash and orange strips, they mine the mindless bigotry for ever penny
Estadio
was at the under 19s too bloody cold, but good game liked our number 3 and 7s
which one of the twentry poor souls were you?
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Bazza
Everyone in football (except KEANO:P) make decisions based on money...
I would think it is also being used as a stepping stone to the EPL.
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I welcome Mr LeGuen although fall short of wishing him luck. I wonder if though, had there been a poor result for them and a good result for hearts, would this info have been released before our big match.
Evening time saturday seems peculiar to say the least - It will be surprising to see how much and how detailed the coverage of this 'short notice' possibly 'rushed' will be by our independent and unbiased 4th estate.
Good luck to Gordon and the team tomorrow - our confidence and ability and stature is growing - it's time for assertion.
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PS - Meant to add - Best of luck to our travelling support as I'm sure there will be a concentrated viewing by our lovely press boys as to how we, that other part of the Old Firm, conduct ourselves.
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I get the impression that this announcement is designed to try and upset Hearts ahead of the game between the two sets of dark forces next week and the renewal of season books at Mount Doom.
We are not part of that equation (thank heavens) and we can simply get on with the game.
Tomorrow is a real toughie at Easter Rd and TFOD have actually done us a favour by taking away all the pressure from us prior to a crucial game whilst "The Mint" further massages his already overblown ego.
Next week perhaps the ideal result will be a draw and then we will only be a couple of games from securing the title.
What happens after that is not our concern except who wins the CL as that will determine our automatic entry to group stages.
I couldn't give a monkeys about who finishes second or Le Guen arriving at Ibrox - we've been here before with Advocaat and so TFOD will do as they always do spend money they can ill afford to placate the unwashed hordes in the Copland Stand.
Applications for Rangers seasons books for 2006-2007 are due for renewal next week - that's why the timing is as it is.
Let the rabid hordes get on with it and let us concentrate on building a team that even an excellent coach like Le Guen will find hard to topple.
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I have been reading with interest the debate about what does and does not constitute bigoted singing and chanting from the Celtic support. The distinction between political and religious lyrics seems valid up to a point.
As this debate has been sparked by UEFA's decision to investigate Rangers fans' behaviour during both legs of the Villareal tie, I would suggest that the immediate concern for the Celtic is any chanting directed AT opposing players or fans.
Specifically, it was the "dirty F***** B******s" chant that landed Rangers in trouble. I would predict that it will be anything resembling a "(dirty) O****** B******s" chant that risks landing Celtic in trouble with UEFA (or the SFA).
I have read previously on this site a few individuals defening the use of "Orange" as an insult. That kind of semantic debate is on a par with David Edgar's reference to obscure dictionary definitions.
The simple truth is that when any adjective is followed by the word "b******" it become aggressive and discriminatory. If the adjective is a race or skin colour, it is racist. If the adjective refers to a religious denomination it is bigoted.
I disagree with Gordon Smith on most things and I disagreed with the timing of his remarks this afternoon, but when he suggested that any Celtic fan calling him (and by extension anyone) an "O***** B******" was also a bigot he was correct.
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Edward agree with the gist of your complaint re calling anyone a b....
Gordon Smith however is not impartial and seeks to bring Celtic down to the same level as Rangers
He acts as an impartial observer which he clearly is not
In terms of scale the problem at Ibrox is much greater, its not a minority but the whole stadiun singing this tosh, or at least thats how it comes across on TV
We do have a problem with the away support but not home, because the club actively has worked to eradicate it
As per my earlier point Rangers encourage it with the Flag waving and flut band playing
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I get a chance to see Ligue Une weekly here and most of the football is unexciting and frankly pretty poor. The league is not as strong as many believe and the TV money is entirely due to the large population, 50+ million I believe.
Apart from Lyons which French clubs have impressed in Europe recently?
As avid a football fan as I am, even the highlights show bores me. I have no doubt there are some skillful players but in general the teams are full of dross and their games are boring.
You will have got the impression I think the standard, except maybe for Lyons, is poor and that the games are boring.
So if this is PLG's claim to fame
BRING IT ON, spend the family jewels on expensive French imports and take the Mint's shilling.
Our prudent management and youthful conveyor belt will see us maintain our position atop the midden.
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On Le Guen issue.
Personally actually didn't think Murray would have snared him. Breaks my heart saying it but the guy is quality. The guy could entice some really good players.
However, every confidence that WGS will pull of a few quality signings to combat this. I hope PL and the rest of board back WGS plans for signings in the summer.
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I WILL STATE THIS AGAIN, AS I BELIVE I AM THE ORACLE !!!!!!!!!
i feel the paul le guen scenario shouldnt scare the celtic family....... if we are strong(my belief is we will get stronger) then that should be enough, regardless of the other side....
another thing being, is this pre advocaat ???? the money leguen will have to spend ??? 5m pound players ???? who comes to scotland ??? FRENCH NON, polish yes !!! does he know any ???? any japanese ??? the way i see it, it has to be 19yr old african/french who will cost 3mill and have to adapt to our frenetic game .... he is bound to unearth a gem, but my belief is he will have it hard... in fact i confidently predict he will fail.......... FAIL ........ 10/3/6 THE BIG PREDICTION...... and a rational thought out one too......
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graham spiers
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bazza67
I wouldn't disagree with you for one minute about the scale of the problem or the difference between the two clubs in their actions to discourage/encourage bigotry. But putting our own house in order is the gist of this thread, regardless of what happens elsewhere.
By the way, I am not Edward, though no offence taken - Edward always comes across as a very reasonable and certainly far from bigoted Rangers fan!!
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I cannot believe some of the comments on this site today. Do people think that by calling people "orcs,huns, TFOD etc" results in them being better than Rangers supporters?
I am married to a protestant who has family within the masons, so what?
My kids are going to a non denominational school and are protestants, so what!
I am a die hard Celtic fan and a proclaim to be a real good catholic, again so what!
There are too many people who are confusing nationalism and sectarianism/bigotry and are becoming self proclaiming.
Support your team,don't forget the past but there is still a need to eradicate any bigotry that still exists at parkhead and educate the future generations.
That is what it should be about, not continue to portray that we are any better.
Before anyone comments, the bunnet has helped to ensure that Celtic set out to combat bigotry/sectarianism in the 90s and there has been significant improvements but ask yourself one question, why has Paul posted a subject about this and the focus that will be on the away support tomorrow?
Answers on an e-postcard please....
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Folks,
I havent read much of the thread so sorry if someone else has covered this..
When Dick Advocat arrived at Ibrox it sent a chill down my spine. Rangers were pretty dominant I think you will agree. Dick Advocat was a proven manager at the top level and lived up to his reputation winning silverware spending around 64million (?) until he lost his dressing room and MON came in to see him off.
With the arrival of le Guen there are similarities between then and now.
Strike that! there is ONE similarity.
That being that LeGuen is a top class manager.
However, he does not have 64 million to spend and more importantly he is facing what is developing into a top class side in Celtic.
Further, he is facing a resurgent Hearts who if they do not implode will be even stiffer oponents next year.
Further, if Hibs continue thier progress they will also be no pushovers.
Advocat had it easy, Lots of Spondoulix, no opposition. These are different times, I am looking forward to the impending implosion at Ibrox, bring it on.
Hibs 0 Celtic 4
Im not even nervous about this game its a stick on. (Dont quote me on that though)
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Paul - I agree with you that PLGs appointmemt - along with the JJB Moonshine money - looks like a gamblers last throw of the dice. A note of caution though, George Burnley demonstrated at Hearts that a new manager and a bunch of new players can be moulded quickly into a top team in the SPL without spending vast amounts of money. For this reason I think if PLG is an execellent technical coach and man-manager he could turn things around reasonably quickly. As others have said, however, as long as we continue to progress and improve we will be hard to beat. We are one season ahead in terms of management, coaching, team restructuring and already have firm plans in place for next season.
So, to paraphrase, Franklin D. Roosevelt (the original Teddy Bear), we have nothing to fear but fear itself.
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Paul Le Guen? A guy who had a few big years spending big. Otherwise, who knows? No need for much worry or attention.
Bigotry? Some sections of our support still have much to learn but the majority have dragged that minority at least into the 20th Century. Which is way ahead of a high proportion of the gers support. Good luck to UEFA and mainly to the Scottish Parliament in their determination to arrest barbarians.
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Anybody know more about Le Guens failure at Rennes. He is quality though. We love to dismiss the huns at every turn but Murray has pulled a rabbit from the hat here.
We know they are skint its public knowledge yet they can persuade Le Guen to sign up. I hope its more like Boumsong and he will have a get out clause and will be off to some big EPL club next season. The positive is that like Keano this signing raises the profile of the SPL yet again. The more quality associated with it can only be positive, shame though he didnt join the Arabs or Livi :-)
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Just saw the weather forecast-must be a bit of a doubt over the match tomorrow.Fingers crossed.
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And onother thing..... I'm proud of my / our Irish heritage and never want lose it. But the real sign of our defeat of all that bile, bigotry, discrimation and hate is when we are as proud to wave the Saltire as we are to wave the Tricolour. I look forward to the day when the Saltire is waved proudly at Paradise!
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Like Estadio and bazza67, I got along to the Youths game today. I was the one behind the goal in the fetching padded, green anorak. Appropriate, eh?
Diarmuid O'Carroll (penalty, 4mins) and Simon Ferry (30 mins) got the goals, but it could have been far more but for some heroics by the Hibs keeper, Andrew McNeil.
Some of the football was a joy. Hope you all get the chance to see some of it on CelticTV next week.
Bazza67: The Celtic No. 3 was Ryan Conroy, who usually plays left of midfield. No 7 was Marc Millar.
As a service to my fellow anoraks, a full and comprehensive report has been typed up by my now-thawed-out fingers.
It can be found, as usual, on:
CelticFCblog
Must dash now to put the weans to bed!
JohnBhoy (;-0)
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timgreen, the saltire was well in evidence in Seville. I (and am sure others) are really proud of our Irish history but are also really proud to be Scottish.
Discybhoy
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All this talk about them...
Old Money. Blah..Blah..
Unemployed French manager... Blah..Blah..
Mental Owner. Blah...Blah..Blah
BRING IT ON. We are ready.
Anyway, what about the team for tomorrow. Who will be left on the bench. Will it be Naka again or will BBJ get a rest. My team to start..
Boruc,
Telfer, Balde, McManus, Wilson,
Petrov, Lennon, Keane, Maloney, Zurawski, Hartson.
Prediction; Hibs 1 Celtic 3.
(BTW. Heard a rumour that Eck is the No. 1 target for Hearts next season. Surely Not....)
Lubo.
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I agree about Seville DiscyBhoy and it was to our credit. One of the highspots in our great history.
Let's grab our Scottish heritage too while the morons are up to their necks in 17th Century mud. Marching boldly backwards under the union flag.
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Lubo,
Like the attitude. Keep telling it like it should be bretheren!!
Discybhoy
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Lubo - I'm fairly sure that McLeish recently said he would not manage any other SPL team as he is "a Rangers man", I also can't see him wanting to work with another ego-maniac chairman. I reckon the Coca-Cola league will be his next stop, perhaps with the newly relegated Sunderland.
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Ill be honest,ive been a harsh critic of GS this season (probably too harsh at times) but i wouldnt swap our situation with theirs for all the frenchmen in france.
With our healthy financial situation and current squad im looking forward to GS leading us into the CL next season .
Bring it on!!!
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Anybody think that if BBJ is rested we will try Stan again up front and bring in Naka? Dion or Stan - who's it gonna be . . .
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I quite fancy resting BBJ, bringing Naka in and starting with a 4-5-1 with Stan,and Keane bombing up to support Magic.
