 Thursday, April 12, 2007
Celtic Champions League ambitions should be encouraged
I sometimes read the diverse opinions on football expressed here, and feel like screaming. Despite watching the game for most of our lives, few football fans have even an elementary grasp of tactics.
Then I see some of Europe’s top coaches like Bayern’s Ottmar Hitzfeld, Eindhoven’s Ronald Koeman and Roma’s Luciano Spalletti make some abecedarian miscalculations in the Champions League quarter finals, and I wonder if the rest of us are too far behind.
When Celtic entertained Milan at home in the last round, both clubs played it tight not wanting to risk losing a goal, a scenario which brought scorn on Celtic from some quarters.
I remember hearing the same in 2004, when Celtic beat nine-man Barcelona 1-0 in the Uefa Cup first leg at Celtic Park. Instead of ‘going for the jugular’, Celtic kept it tight, not leaving space for Barca to exploit.
If watching Bayern Munich, PSV Eindhoven and Roma in the quarter finals has anything to teach us, it is that the Champions League is the most unforgiving of tournaments. If you attempt ‘get the sleeves rolled up and have a go’, even at home, weaknesses will be brutally exposed.
I have watched Bayern Munich a couple of times this season; they look like a pretty decent team, one who would certainly be looking to win the SPL, but last night, despite, or perhaps because of, a moral boosting 2-2 draw in Milan, they failed to lock the back door.
Losing at home by a couple of goals is a doomsday scenario for Bayern. Today their fans and the German media will digest what will be seen as their abject failure. We have no right to think that such a defeat, or worse, the 7-1 thumping Roma took at Old Trafford could not happen to Celtic.
It could and would have happened if Gordon Strachan did not get his tactics right. The four games against Milan and Manchester United were among the most tactically mature Celtic performances I have seen. The victory over Manchester United was certainly the most significant change of tactics mid-game I have seen from a Celtic manager.
Stronger teams, better teams, were matched, even though I doubt a single Celtic outfield player would make it into the Manchester or Milan teams.
After that win, Gordon Strachan was asked if he felt the team was where he wanted it to be, a suggestion he laughed at. Celtic do not have the players to threaten the Champions League trophy itself, but we have a manager who has yet to find his ceiling and who pushed one of this season’s finalists all the way.
It will take him time to get the team where he wants it to be, but when he does, don't think for a second that this season, our best crack at the big cup in a generation, is the limit to the ambitions of anyone at Celtic Park.
207 Comments:
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Is it a First
Bobo must stay
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Looks like it.
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Can't be
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Gordon Strachan needs time and a few pounds more to take us forward thats for sure - will he be given both?
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Paul
Totally agree with this thinking, but you do not need to look too far back to WGS first European game to see where he learned his lessons.
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abecedarian
honestly - anyone know what it means without googling it?
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St-Gris,
like any other manager, he needs time, money and luck. They are, of course, all related to a degree.
My guess is that he'll get some money. Luck is in the lap of the Gods and in some of the 15 penalties.
Time? Not from a good many fans on this board. He'll quite possibly complete a very fine 3 in a row, and 'not be one of us' in the eyes of some.....
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watchow
i dont know
paul67
but does it mean its team C next season rather than 3 paul ;-)
or is it an aberdonian librarian.
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P8ddy,
'the abject failure of the majority of Strachan signings'
Please tell me which of the following has been an abject failure: Boruc, Telfer, Naylor, Wilson,Caldwell, Pressley, Sno, Nakamura, Riordan, Vennegor of Hesselink.
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Paul,
Absolutely spot on, I thought our tactics in both Milan games were ideal. We looked to keep them at bay for as long as possible, never allowing them to really open up. I though Roma's tactics were absolutely abysmal v United. They went on the front foot from the start allowing United to pick them off at will. They played their usual formation without two very important players, Taddei and Perrotta and replaced them with inferior players but expecting them to do the same job.
Gordon Strachan in my opinion did fantastically well to get us through the group stages, not without a couple of below par performances, with a team who to be honest were inferior in many positions to both Benfica and United and then to take Milan to extra time not having concede a goal was a fantastic acheivement. I thought at the time and still do that his tactics against United at CP were to allow them the ball and to limit their wide players influence to such an extent where Boruc had very few saves to make despite United dominating position and then to strike in the 2nd half when they thought they were in easy street. Yes we had a bit of luck but we also had a lot of bad luck ie non pens against Milan and the pens given v United.
I'm sure Gordon would agree with me that we can improve and hopefully will but credit where it is due we took 9 points in our group and held two semi finalists to clean sheets in three of four games of football.
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Took some time out to write this, rarely post but always read..
I have been supporting Celtic all my life. The reason? My Dad did. Pure and simple.
I attend as many games as I can. I lived in Argyll for a few years then spent 4 years at Stirling Uni where location and student budgets denied many an attendance.
I love European nights and any games against the rangers, I always try my utmost to attend these matches, regardless of cost. I was at Ibrox for the first time this year, savoured every second and experienced every emotion possible. Was at the Motherwell game on saturday, very different story, arrived 20 mins before kick off, sat and basked and the enormity and beauty of Paradise, watched the game, not overjoyed with it but still enjoyed being there.
I hope one day to have the same feelings of pure joy I had after the Man U game at Parkhead (hairs on end as I type) but I am all to aware this does not happen every week, doesn't even come remotely close, all the same I WANT to be there EVERY week, I hanker after it.
I am now in the more fortunate position of in full time employment and living in Glasgow.
I spoke to a very nice lady at Parkhead two months ago enquiring about a season ticket, she emailed recently to tell me it will arrive before the start of next season.
The anticapation of week in week out Celtic football is killing me, I am overjoyed at the prospect of my Celtic Football Club Season Ticket, I feel honoured.
I would never compare myself to the very wise old and young heads on here when it comes to our team, so I say this with the greatest of respect. Why do some people watch celtic, pay good money for celtic, talk about celtic even bloody think about celtic. For such negativity to arise in them can ONLY be a bad thing.
I just wanted to say I haven't been put off, if there is any one else out there who reads this blog and a bit like myself I hope they haven't been put off and I hope I don't get my seat allocated beside a doomsday merchant.
I am 23 years old, for me the futures bright, most definitely Green and White.
JTB
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It means elementarylike the mistake you might make if learning a new skill,esp language[as in ABC].
A wee reminder to excellent CQNers that on radio4 tonight at 8pm-'Auld Firm,Old Family'in which John Wilson[son of Arsenal and Scotland legend Bob]explores the origins of the sectarian policy at Rang####,and in particular the role of his great,great,great uncle Sir Ian Primrose who when he was chairman of the club became chief instigator of the policy
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As usual Timlord your scraping the barrel for sly kicks you'll even use quotes from the daily record as gospel.
Thats Low. Your credibility would take a dip if you had any. If you feel you have a go well then do it on merit at least. Seeing as your around and have expert knowledge on Riordan capabilities lets have your reasoning for a starting place.
I want the Bhoy to start , I think highly of the lad but there has been reasons. Discount the off-field stuff and stick to the football.
Derek himself is on the record stating he is a left sided attacker. To play him in the same team on the left side you would displace McGeady. This shouldnt happen. To swap Aiden and Naka then drop Naka , this wouldnt happen. Riordan on the left hand side of midfiled is a luxury as he cant defend that great. The balance of the team then is upset. Gordon Strachan knows this. With an already disruptive midfield its too much off a risk. To play the 3 of them , Naka , Aiden , Deek you need JVOH. Fit and ready. He is a foil for Deek. He holds up the place and feeds derek the knock-downs etc. Derek isnt naturally a striker who can defend from the front ie. closing down etc so up front his free role becomes important. The problem has been when JVOH is injured Riordan cant play with Miller or Beattie (Magic injured) as WGS knows the front line is then imbalanced. Kenny for all his faults knows how to defend upfront lessening the pressure on an already inept midfield. Sno un-injured would have helped his cause. To play derek would be a risk ( I would have taken) but then again I'm not in the hot seat.
Riordan stated a thigh injury prevented him from more starts recently. This suggests WGS has told him he is in his plans. He should earn his place. What derek does is score goals.Now hopefully we are in a position to let him do it.
On a separte issue Gordon tactics in europe have been generally spot on. To say WGS is tactically naive is laughable. Far from it. Managing to disguise our weaknesses from other teams is a feat in itself.
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Kittochbhoy, totally agree, Artmedia was a big lesson.
Weeron, he will get money and is due some luck. He will also get time from those who make the decisions, and I suspect from everyone else thereafter.
Rev Davie :-)
J Tim Bag, thanks for your contribution today. I hope you get the seat beside me.
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Monteblanco,
I saw Laurel and Hardy at the Empire. It was my ninth birthday treat, the same year that I got Rubstuds on my football boots. No more torn legs from me.
I also saw Patsy Gallagher.
TTT (not so young as I look CSC)
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In next season's CL Celtic will be in pot 3, and the season after we will slip yet another couple of places down the rankings, having lost our Seville coefficient and seen Juventus return above us (in spite of 2 "dead" seasons).
A possible draw for our CL group next season (should Celtic qualify) is:
Real Madrid, Chelsea and Dinamo Kiev
The return of the annual "group of death"?
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Could you try to make the first paragraph a little bit more condescending please? I think most of us ignoramouses missed it....
Perhaps you could give us a brief resume of your tactical qualifications....
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WGS clearly knows his players well after spouting last week about Deek opreferring to play left mid, Deek himself has said he prefers to play up front....this follows his comments on TG and JJ. Does he know why he signs these folk??
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jtb
for many years i was in a similar position to you, i was unable to attend regularly for economic and distance reasons.
the feeling when i got my season book was amazing, i dont get to every game but i still get the special feeling walking up the gallowgate and taking my seat.
i still consider myself lucky to be there every time i go.
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DunfyDave,
Can you please enlighten us where Derek actually say's that. If you are taking the quotes from the Record then please watch the whole interview and see what he actually says.
Where does it say you have to have qualifications on tactics to have an opinion? Your opinion is no less/more valid on here than anyone elses.
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dd, is an ignoramouse a wee creature who can`t tell a cheddar from a cheshire? Could be in trouble there, then......
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Enrico
I don't think you shoul dbe asking me those questions.
Instead they should be put to the manager who signed a whole bunch of players he apparently can't fit into HIS team.
Surely he knew their form and what their preferred positions were when he signed them.
So how come there's som much driftwood floating around a team that we are constantly told has to be careful with its funds.
Doesn't look like we're being too careful to me.
Big Liam
If the quote was taken out of contect from ch67 then I humbly backdown.
However, it must be said the boy certainly feels ready to play up front with Big Jan now.
Let's hope he does on Saturday
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P8ddy said:
"One last point - given the abject failure of the majority of Strachan signings, why would have any faith that he would be able to sign better for any amount of money?"
P8ddy, a throw away comment like this betrays your intelligence and analytical ability. How can the majority of WGS's signings be decsribed as abject failures when his squad is on the brink of achieving its objectives? I know that you can do better than this, so why don't you explain in what way the players to whom you're referring are abject failures.
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Good post Paul I completely agree.
I'm surprised by the lack of congratulations on our MANY players who have been shortlisted for the player of the year and young player of the year awards. They deserve a blog article Paul ;-)
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j-tim-bag
Good post, enjoyed reading it, however here is a question I have often asked myself - at what point does CONCERN for your club, for whatver reason, manifest itself as NEGATIVITY? Or put another way how do you express concern in a positive manner?
rhetoric question j-t, no need to reply, unless you have the answer of course :-)
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well said Paul.
I said at the time on these pages that beating Man Utd was one of the best results in Celtic's history. And yet, like you say, many people complained about Gordon's tactics and team selection.
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congratulations j-tim-bag on getting your season ticket. I wish my location and finances allowed me the same priviledge, I would be feeling just like you do right now.
Let's hope the ones that don't actually want to be there decide to pass their season ticket onto more appreciative people so that there are more happy guys like you watching Celtic go on to win our third consecutive league title.
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watchow...
re record - point taken, post removed
Thank you! You're an officer and a gentleman! :-)
i have a pretty good idea what his wages are and for me he does not give value for money at that price.
His wages are high, I think any analysis and speculation would be correct in that manner...but....
He doesn't get injured much, he was a free transfer and we have to compare like for like.
What I'm getting at is this - if we compare Bobo to other players, who would be a comparable player on less wages? I can't think of any. To be fair however, neither of us have a major scouting network behind us.
there is always that - we would need to sign someone to replace him but i would be very suprised and disappointed if we couldnt do better for the same money.
I don't know where I would look for a defender with the same mix of talents. Granted he has his limitations, but he's head and shoulders above any other defender we have. He's also not an extravagence. By that I mean he's not on silly money like Tommy Gravesen. He's on the sort of money touted for Shaun Maloney. In my estimation that's not an excessive wage.
Do you have defenders in mind you think do do a similar job for the same money? I ask that question in all seriousness, because I can't think of any that would come close.
Remember - Bobo is the guy who has kept the cream of Europes attackers quiet (including Rooney, Scholes, Del Piero, Carew).
/p
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Dunfy,
While you read the first 3 lines, you clearly didn’t manage the next 3, where I wondered “if the rest of us are too far behind” Europe’s top coaches, putting myself among the former group, who’s reputation I redeem.
If you want condescending:
I will help by trying not to extend any one point over so many lines in future :-)
Sean, ternar, agree.
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P8ddy,
I agree with you on Bobo, for me when we play against better teams he tends to stand out and his value for money in the European games, Rangers games etc has been great. He does tend to let his concentration slip when we play "lesser" teams but for me he is still our best defender and the best centre half in the country by a mile.
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Oh, by the way, the Riordan story has now been put out by the Press Association who are crediting Celtic TV. So if you want to read it from the horse's mouth so to speak you'll find it at the end of this contribution.
I'd pay special attention to Riordan's quote: "He (Gordon Strachan) will pick the right team, I suppose."
Think I'm with Riordan on that one.
I don't think Gordon ever forgave him for pointing out in an interview when he joined that it took Celtic an age to get the ball to the frontmen in training which he just wasn't use to as Hibs was all about.....
what do you call it?
Oh yeah that's right
Fast, flowing football.
Still nevermind you've always got Neil Lennon to blame.
Gordon will get it right next year once that pesky Lennon is gone.
Laughable.
And don't come back with what have Hibs won. Our budget is as Chelsea to Wrexham compared to Hibs.
NO CENTRAL RESERVATIONS FOR RIORDAN
Celtic’s Derek Riordan believes he can develop a deadly strike partnership with Jan Vennegoor of Hesselink after confirming he is ready for a central role.
The former Hibernian forward has spent much of this season on the bench, and only last week boss Gordon Strachan stressed that Riordan preferred to play as a left-sided attacker.
However the 24-year-old told Celtic TV: “I am happy playing up front. I think it helps when I am playing with a bigger striker like Jan, who is good in the air and can hold the ball up well.”
Celtic face St Johnstone in the Tennent’s Scottish Cup semi-final on Saturday at Hampden Park.
Riordan hit the winner in the Bank of Scotland Premier League match against Motherwell last Saturday, after coming on the bench.
Having not yet had a long stretch of games, Riordan is eager to be heavily involved over the remaining matches this season.
“Hopefully I have done enough to be in the team for the semi-final, but it is down to the manager. He will pick the right team, I suppose,” he said.
“Obviously getting a goal on Saturday gives you a lot more confidence and I want to be playing a lot more games before the end of the season.
“I will have to prove myself and get a few more goals.”
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Awnaw, I don`t think j timbag was commenting on most supporters who have concerns, but more on the eternal negative pessimistic moaning unhappy malcontents on this board,and at CP, who only seem to brighten up when the team fails, so they can yell `I told you so,` Strachan out` etc etc.
I have concerns about where we are going long term, but am still 100% behind the manager. 2 leagues in a row,last 16, i`m happy with that.(so far) Let`s see what the close season and next year bring, then may be the time to take stock.
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Trotternish...
Please tell me which of the following have been abject failures: Boruc, Telfer, Naylor, Wilson, Caldwell, Pressley, Sno, Nakamura, Riordan, Vennegor of Hesselink.
That's a loaded question. Lets look at all of his signings. In brackets I'll mark the players I can categorise...
Lee Naylor (unproven, form patchy)
Jan Vennegoor of Hesselink (unproven, injury prone)
Thomas Gravesen (Failed)
Steven Pressley (Not good enough)
Mark Brown (Not good enough)
Paul Hartley (Not good enough)
Mo Camara (Failed)
Maciej Zurawski (Failed)
Adam Virgo (Failed)
Paul Telfer (Qualified success)
Shunsuke Nakamura (Qualified success)
Artur Boruc (Success)
Roy Keane (NA)
Mark Wilson (Not good enough)
Dion Dublin (Not good enough)
Jiri Jarosik (Failed)
Evander Sno (Unproven)
Derek Riordan (Failed, can't get a game)
Kenny Miller (Failed)
Gary Caldwell (Not good enough)
Out of that lot, there is one player who can be regarded as an unqualified success. Boruc.
There are some others who have it all to prove, but in the main, there are far more failures than successes.
And if you think Pressley, Caldwell, Miller, Virgo, Camara, Wilson et al are good enough for Celtic then our ambitions very drastically.
I feel most sorry for Wilson, because with six months in the stiffs getting intensive coaching I think he'd have become a decent player. Instead he's been allowed to fester. His failings have been amplified thater than coached out. Much the same thing happened to Derek Whyte.
/p
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P8ddy/ Bambi
Delighted to read your support for Bobo
Everyone else who doubts him should re-watch the video on letthepeoplesing/most watched. Bobo at Barcelona
KittochWhoIsInNoDoubt.
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Timlord,
Is there any chance you could print the full interview, not just the parts that either the press assoc or the Record have pulled out?
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Great article Paul. I was in the San Siro and when the 90mins whistle blew I was as proud of Celtic as I've ever been. We were still in the game and had Naylor's free kick went in on the 118th minute, who knows....??
After all the stick the team and manager had taken from the press and some of the support during the season, here we were, 0-0 with Milan and still going for the 1/4 finals of a tournament that requires a £80M spend these days to get to the semi-finals.
Gordon's tactics were spot on. I remember every time he made a change (sub or tactics) during that game - "Yep, nice one. Just the time to do it...". Only difference I had with himwas taking Jarosik off, who was starting to cause problems down the left. But hey, that's why he's Celtic manager and I was up in the stands :)
Onwards and upwards. Can't wait to win this weekend then clinch the league next week. Not been to bad a season.......:-)))
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Cheers all for replies.
Sean, I will shout and sing for you as well mate.
Watchow, I am lookin forward to feeling like you do en route to paradise in years to come.
Paul, t'would be a pleasure.
Awna, fair question, with many answers. Some people just wallow in negativity, can drive you mental sometimes, or at worst make you sad.
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j-tim-bag -
Well said sir.
Hope you're in the Lisbon Lion Upper - could do with some help there... ;)
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Dash it all, why is it calling me googlesux?
I'm Hoopla, g'dammit, Hoopla!
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Kittochbhoy said...
Delighted to read your support for Bobo
I've been banging the drum for Bobo for a long time. Since Paul67 suggested it would be a good idea to sell him in fact! :-) Before that point I assumed everyone loved him.
/p
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Bambi
Sorry - haven't got the full interview.
But I'm sure Big Liam was right he sounded like he'd heard it so I'm more than happy to believe him that Deeks said he preferred coming in from the left but that he's more than happy to start up front.
As to the argument of defensive strikers. I don't remember Magic offering much defensively or indeed Beattie, or indeed JVoH or indee Jiri was he was thrown up front.
At least Deeks offers goals and I think I'd rather that than a striker who is really a winger (Miller) defending from the front but failing abysmally to hit the back of the net.
WHo knows if Gordon had tried Deeks up front more often(six goals from six games by the way) maybe the criticism wouldn't be so pronounced.
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I would love Bobo at about 1/3 of his current salary...
Sadly I feel he is simply not good enough on the ball to justify the money he is on.
He has size and strength, and is good in the air, but that is about it far as I can see... and in the modern game that is not enough.
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Hi Paul,
Nice post; Gordon Strachan has what it takes tactically in my opinion; he has made several changes, either at half-time, or later in a game, which have turned games in our favour; something which MON did regularly as well.
Despite the failings this season, mainly from a completely mis-firing strike force (for one reason or another), I remain optimistic about progression under his management, given the appropriate level of support, both from within the club and elsewhere.
Pretty sure he'll get it from within, not sure about the rest.
Hail Hail
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bring back bobo
bring back bobo
bring back bobo
bring back bobo
hail hail
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P8ddy,
Thanks for the reply. My question was in no way "loaded". I merely quoted you. It seems you're right after all. Our manager has signed a lot of abject failures, who have taken to the team to the brink of its second successive league title and the last 16 of the CL. Naylor ('unproven, patchy form') and Nakamura ('qualified success'!!!)have even been nominated for the player of the year award. All this makes the manager an abject failure too, I suppose. And I'm an abject failure as a football analyst. But don't be too hard on me, please.
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were all doomed
they are all qualified failures
we are worse than ever
get a life. in fact get a teleport and skip back to the nineties. then you will see what failures are.
and in true jimmy sanderson
do u go to the games???????
(anyone can answer)
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Incredible!
Judging Celtic players using a Chelsea or ManU yardstick.
We can only get what we can afford to buy and hope that a diamond or two from the cull.
Every marque signing that we can attract will have some cloud or other hanging over him, hence our ability to attract. Big name, big game players WILL not come to Celtic otherwise.
Some guys here really need to get real.
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I was so proud when we beat Manyoo but I would have to say that we won it defending. The same goes for the Milan game except we didn't win. What I'm trying to say is we dont seem to be able to play attacking football now,even in the SPL. I can't understand why we bought Gravesen. Before he came I thought great! but seeing the way he is used/unused I don't know what to think. Mind you if he keeps running around like the headless chicken I despair that we will find anyone to take him of our hands. Keano might make something out of him but I dunno.
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right rev david hay
That's the big problem with this blog patently many on here do not go to the home games let alone the away games.
If they did they would see the standard of fare has not been that great and stop laying the blame at the supporters.
Whilst i would never condone booing the team some of what we have had to sit through would curl your toes. The SPl is truely a league in decline and the sooner we are out of it the better.
Yes i was delighted after the man u game. It was amazing walking back to the car after it.
Milan was dulled by the beer but I was extremly proud of the players and the support. However, domesticaly we are the best of a very very bad bunch and a large amount of money will have to be spent to add quality and remove the deadwood.
A lot of which has been brought in by the present management operation.
We can all debate duds and success's. i made an arse of myself over naylor who i rate as first class and just wish we had cover to give him the rest he so deserves.
The debate i am looking forward to is how we improve the team when we win the league and after we have beaten the fifers in the scottish cup.
Also if anyone is after a ticket for the cup semi final i have two spare but i guess we will have only around 30K there.
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Good article Paul,
I agree 100% with you but don't think these tactics should be transfered into games such as Motherwell when we are so far ahead in the League.
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Gavil Guy, Paul....Thank you!!!!
I've been losing interest in the chat on CQN recently with the mineshafters having sway.
I'm sure that every one of them could walk into the first eleven and make the difference or I also sure that each and every one of them thanked Peter Lawell for calling when attempting to fill the Manager spot and was praying for a football genius to take Celtic on the the next level (but they were all washing their hair or had a rush order of Stir Sticks to prepare.
It's easy to be a Monday Morning Quarterback.
I too have been unhappy with certain play/players and vented my spleen at the time - as is my right as a SUPPORTER .
But I refuse to to spoil a 40+ year devotion as a Celtic supporter - I've been through good + bad seen worse and I still cannot believe that some think we are the worst team in a Celtic jersey, Gord should be fired & hunted, get a world class (Celtic-Minded, of course) Manager.....No, Roy Keane is not that or maybe never will be....but I'm not an expert...just a supporter:
by definition a SUPPORTER:
1.a person or thing that supports.
2.an adherent, follower, backer, or advocate.
3.a device, usually of elastic cotton webbing, for supporting some part of the body, esp. a jockstrap.
4.a garter, esp. one attached to a garter belt or girdle.
5.Heraldry. either of two human or animal figures flanking and supporting an escutcheon in an achievement of arms.
While the vast majority of Celtic fans are 1& 2.....I feel that there are too many 3 $ some 4's.
Support Celtic or not at all. Better or Worse...
Hail Hail fellow happy clappers.
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gweedorebhoy
i dont believe the league is any worse or better than it has been in my lifetime watching the 'tic.
(Season ticket since i was 14, so thats....23 years)
i think there are a lot of good players within the spl considering the lack of money. i think there is real prospect for the Scotland International set-up over the next 5 years (i couldnt care less though TBH) with guys like naismith, brown, maloney, gordon, mcmanus, caldwell, wilson, robson, anderson, kennedy, burke, whittaker...i could keep going. im not saying they are world class but they are an improvement over the last decade or so.
as for getting out the spl for now and the forseable future we are in the SPL which we now dominate, again.
im not a happy clapper (yet) but im happy to be a follower of celtic in the good times. but im happy to be a supporter of celtic during the bad times too. that doesnt mean i blindly think miller and camara etc are good enough to play for the hoops, because they are not. but its about more than that, isnt it?
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sorry if i digress but this just in
Barca in Nacho Swoop
hail hail
happy clappers
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P8ddy
For all the time and the hundreds of posts you have made on this blog,I have agreed with most and disagreed with some, Howevvvah!! your assessment of WGS's signings must surely be the worst post you have ever made.Maybe last minute and done in a rush but I suspect though that it was a case of lighting the blue touch paper and then legging it as fast as possible.Tsk tsk !!
timoot
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Timlord,
Deek's interview was nothing out of the ordinary and didnt set out to blame anybody. Indeed it seems if the young lad is starting to mature. He's starting to realise there's a career to be had here and he has to prove he can make it. Lets face it Celtic have been remarkably patient with this one. We could have cut our losses at Christmas but all along the manager has said he has a future here , just nobody seemed to take notice or believe Gordon Strachan.
P8ddy ,
I believe your being very harsh on WGS signings. Such high failure rates can be said of MON teams in previous seasons. That said those failures WGS has signed have by in large delivered their goals ie. trophies.
They had an end product to their failure. Credit them at least with that.
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Bobby Russell,
Whilst I remember, great joke on the previous thread re Mike and Bernie, not often I LOL but had to at that one.
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Cheers AntibesBhoy, those good penalty shouts in the San Siro could have changed things, but to be honest, I think we managed our exist from the CL with some pride. The squad is not good enough to go all the way (yet), so maybe an exit with pride was the best on offer this year.
Hey Hoopla! Good to hear from you. Googlesux, :-)
LarryBhoy, he sure does.
Mayo D, agree that we are slovenly in the SPL. I feel a 'sow’s ear' analogy coming on.
Fly mo, ‘blame the manager’ is the first reaction many football fans to a variety of problems.
If only some managers were smart enough to hide their “flopped” signings by shifting the blame upstairs…
If only we would all learn that the job of running a football club is very complex and picking your way through it, making the odd mistake but still winning the league is quite an achievement – for everyone.
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Trotternish...
Thanks for the reply. My question was in no way "loaded". I merely quoted you. It seems you're right after all. Our manager has signed a lot of abject failures, who have taken to the team to the brink of its second successive league title and the last 16 of the CL. Naylor ('unproven, patchy form') and Nakamura ('qualified success'!!!)have even been nominated for the player of the year award. All this makes the manager an abject failure too, I suppose. And I'm an abject failure as a football analyst. But don't be too hard on me, please.
It was loaded in the sense you picked out a selection of players you approve of.
However, your main point here is a non sequitur. At no time have I said that Strachan is a failure of any sort. I have offered praise where it's due and criticism where required.
However, I think it's pretty much accepted that Naylor has been through a period of poor form (hence the patchy form comment) and Nakamura has diappeared in several important games. Hence why he's a qualified success. I'd expect more from him. And I think Naka would want to give more too. He's an excellent player, but has to add other aspects to his game.
/p
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timoot...
For all the time and the hundreds of posts you have made on this blog,I have agreed with most and disagreed with some, Howevvvah!! your assessment of WGS's signings must surely be the worst post you have ever made.
I try and disappoint! :-) As Adam Ant once said, "You cannot lose if you throw the race".
Maybe last minute and done in a rush but I suspect though that it was a case of lighting the blue touch paper and then legging it as fast as possible.Tsk tsk !!
All joking aside now, I was being honest in my assesment of the signings!:-)
By my nature I'm a harsh judge, but I'm also, I think a fair one.
The Pressley, Hartley, Brown signings have left me crestfallen to be honest. I'm probably closer now to my original "the manager has no conception of the quality required at Celtic" than at any time since the bad old days.
As I say, I think that Strachan has been a success. He deserves a lot of praise, especially as he did inherit something of a poisoned chalice in taking over from O'Neill , but I ask myself the following questions -
Will we make money from the failed signings? (I don't think so), Will they be easy to move on? (some), Have the players signed improved the strength in depth of the squad? (Again, I don't think so) and finally, would I be crestfallen if Rangers had signed these players? (Again, for the most part, no)
The biggest tranche of money we've made from players were for players who were here before the Strachan era.
My final point - if we have limited finances I'd much rather we had a core squad of 16 great players than 32 so so ones. If we have two millions to spend, should we buy one player we know will be great or 10 mediocre ones?
As I say, I'm hard to please, but only because I demand the best for Celtic.
/p
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big liam...
I believe your being very harsh on WGS signings. Such high failure rates can be said of MON teams in previous seasons. That said those failures WGS has signed have by in large delivered their goals ie. trophies.
They had an end product to their failure. Credit them at least with that.
I have been fullsome in my praise of the team and indeed Gordon Strachan. This being said, we don't have to balance ying with yang - I mean we shouldn't feel the need to say sometime positive to counteract a negative any more than we should do the opposite...I think it would be only the most churlish of supporter who would deny Gordon Strachan praise.
That doesn't mean we should offer criticism where it's due.
Finally, I don't believe there is a lot of point in comparing Gordon Strachan with Martin O'Neill- O'Neill is gone. However much we don't like it he left two seasons ago and continued comparisons do no one any favours.
/p
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Hi Paul,
I, like most supporters have done exactly that - supported Celtic through good & bad...(players,managers,boards, press)
I just feel that Life, like supporting Celtic, is full of Good days and a few bad ones....the secret is knowing the difference.
But it's a fact that misery loves company.....(darn too many cliches today).....and the bottom dwellers revel in misery.
Hail Hail
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I still think much of the debate is driven by the old media. despite claims to the contrary on this site. If Watties hordes were to cause an almighty upset next year, would the quality of the league be called into question? BFDJ is still banging the drum of how much money Wattie has to spend, while refusing to accept that he is repeating what the said of Le Guen.
We are meandering towards a comfortable league win when we have nothing apart from the cup to play for. having, risen to great heights for Milan our players are suddenly jaded and not at full force. I would hope that the manager once he has allowed his irreplaceables to secure the league will give others a turn to give some late spark to the season and secure their long term future at the club.
On a trivial aesthetic note. One of the disappointments of last season was to see "the Hoops" run out in not the Hoops at Old Trafford due to UEFA demanding that not even shorts and socks could clash. Given that we launch new kits with abandon, is it beyond Nike to have a change shorts and socks that would allow us to were the Hoops on most occasions.
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Paul67,
Reading some of your replies today, you sound upbeat, is there anything coming of shortly or is it just because it's sunny today?
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i think the current mood among the support is illustrated by th fact there are still tickets for staurdays cup semi?
if the fans were happy it would probably be sold out by now.
one logical explantation is nobody likes what they see just now and paying extra is not worth it.
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p8ddy
I share your concerns regarding the quality of the recent signings but my main concern is that we might have to get used to it.
When MoN arrived, I’m not about to compare managers here honest, he spent approx 18 million on Sutton, Lennon, Valgaeren & Thompson. I’d say in today’s market allowing for football transfer market inflation that is around 25 Million. Does anyone think we will spend 25 Million on 4 players during this summer ?
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with regards to the signings wgs has made and p8ddys assessment
guys people are debating over
pressley
hartley
big liam
einning the league is a team goal, not the goal of the individuals personally
how can u suggest for example hartley,virgo,pressley,zurawski,brown for example have had any real impact on us winning the league?
players who have won us it this year, as paul 67's previous article said, are "team one" mainly
boruc,mcmanus,naylor,telfer,naka,aiden,jan,caldwell
they for me are who have won us it in the main and in fairness some of them are recent signings
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frankiebhoy
remember o neil paid very little in subsequent years he bought players at right age knowing he would get 3-4 good years out them and not need to shell out.
at the moment we seem to be needing to rebuild at the end of every season
put it this way hartson cost what say Virgo,gravesen,and zurawski cost
yet what is better value?
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P8ddy,
You say my question "was loaded in the sense you picked out a selection of players you approve of".
That does not make the question loaded. I picked out more than 50% of the players signed by our manager. You had claimed that more than 50% of his signings were "abject failures". You did not have much good to say about the players I mentioned, but you did retreat somewhat from your "abject failure" comment. For that relief much thanks.
"Your main point is a non sequitur".
It seems you have missed the main point. My main point was that you were writing rubbish when you said that more than half of the manager's signings were "abject failures". And my secondary point,namely that if more than half of his signings are abject failures, then the manager must also be something of a failure, is hardly a non sequitur.
Let's all look forward to more of the kind of "qualified success" (!!)that Nakamura represents.
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antsman
There was Hartson the following season and that was it.
I just hope we have decent money to spend, you largely get what you pay for. For every Boruc & Naka there is .....
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Paul
Ye dinna miss da Tack, in fac ye hiv a Knack,
tae show a bit a Coamin Sense... that Maist o'us dae lack!
Ye've sterted many a Contra-V...
which ah know da Boss looks oan wi glee!
An' ye've shown it taks abilitee,
tae run a Blog wi' Civilitee!
Ye're Patient when a Sneaky Zinger,
is fired at ye,
by Da Local WHINGER,
And, ye dinna keep up any spite, or let Back Biting Linger.
In fact, awe o' us Scaredy Chickens, often wonder ...How da Dickens...
Ye can remain so calm showin' equanam.... whenever, da Celtic take a Lickin'?
So here's tae ye pal...as ah salute ma paw.
Thanks tae ye fur awe ye're Labor,
Ye gie us fans a place tae meet an dae us awe a favour!
collie.
Tail's Awaggin',Awaggin'
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Ah, I get it. It's the bad Paul good Paul routine. Sneaky. But nice.
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frankiebhoy
i beg to differ measure his impact against those i mentioned
he was joint top scorer the year he left i believe in zurawski's best season even then hartson was on the bench alot
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Trotternish...
You say my question "was loaded in the sense you picked out a selection of players you approve of".
That does not make the question loaded. I picked out more than 50% of the players signed by our manager. You had claimed that more than 50% of his signings were "abject failures". You did not have much good to say about the players I mentioned, but you did retreat somewhat from your "abject failure" comment. For that relief much thanks.
You picked a selection of players you approve and asked "how are these guys failures" whilst ingoring the players you think haven't made the grade.
I don't want to enter into a debating 101 - but if you can't see how selectively chosing players loads the question then nothing I can say will educate you further in that regard.
However, seeing as you think I'm backing down on the "abject failures" statement - I'm not.
I'll list the failures for you (some of whom were listed simply as not good enough)
Thomas Gravesen (Failed)
Steven Pressley (Not good enough)
Mark Brown (Not good enough)
Paul Hartley (Not good enough)
Mo Camara (Failed)
Maciej Zurawski (Failed)
Adam Virgo (Failed)
Mark Wilson (Not good enough)
Dion Dublin (Not good enough)
Jiri Jarosik (Failed)
Derek Riordan (Failed, can't get a game)
Kenny Miller (Failed)
Gary Caldwell (Not good enough)
That's 13 players who I do not regard as of suficient quality. And a number of them are so far removed from my ideal players as to be easily described as abject.
It seems you have missed the main point. My main point was that you were writing rubbish when you said that more than half of the manager's signings were "abject failures". And my secondary point,namely that if more than half of his signings are abject failures, then the manager must also be something of a failure, is hardly a non sequitur.
The manager would only be an abject failure if his only judgement criteria was player signings. It's not. It's significant, but it's certainly not (to paraphrase Paul67) the only girl at the dance.
So, as stated earlier your point was, and remains a non sequitur.
Thank you however for decrying my opinions as rubbish. Luckilly CQN is not a popularity contest (or indeed considering your intemperate retort, a humilty contest).
Let's all look forward to more of the kind of "qualified success" (!!)that Nakamura represents.
As stated before, I think Naka needs to contribute more. He's a player, he has all the skill in the world, but consistancy and team effort need to be upped (in my opinion).
/p
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FrankieBhoy...
I share your concerns regarding the quality of the recent signings but my main concern is that we might have to get used to it.
I don't think we do.
I completely recognise your point, but I think the point is that we have to identify the right players. This will mean we have to get the scouting right (something Paul67 referenced). Also, it's only really the English leagues that are cash crazy. There are planty of other markets we should be able to plunder.
Certainly, replacing Maloney (who I was never mad keen on) with Scott McDonald isn't the way to go. If we sign inferior players, we'll have an inferior team.
Yes, maybe the days of huge signings are over, but that doesn't mean the days of us signing excellent players are. (hopefully)
/p
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With obvious exception I don't think it is possible to say a player is a failure until they have actually left the club especially since a lot of the signings have been quite young (Wilson, Caldwell, Riordan, Brown etc) and are part of a long term future and are expected to improve every season. You can only say once a player has left if he is a failure or not. By these standards Petrov would be a complete failure after his first season, and Macnamara would probably have been a failure because he spent a few seasons in the wilderness.
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Excellent article, Paul. The real deal. Here's hoping we can all get behind the team and our manager on Saturday and for the rest of the season.
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p8ddy
There's a lot of clubs out there looking for the type of players we seek.
I'm hoping for a repeat of the Mjallby & Petrov signings where we seemed to act quickly.
As an aside I wonder if the turmoil at Hearts hadn't happended who would we have signed instead of Pressley & Hartley.
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Gweedore Bhoy - you said what I have been thinking for a while. There are a lot of people who post here who do not attend matches at Celtic Park regularly.
J Tim Bag (a homage to Theodore T Bagwell?) - congrats on your season book. The fact that you have obtained confirms the waiting list stuff is nonsense. Hopefully you will enjoy a winning team that scores some goals to entertain us. Don't worry about who might be sitting beside you. The way attendances are dropping you may well have no-one around you.
Paul67 - "If you attempt ‘get the sleeves rolled up and have a go’, even at home, weaknesses will be brutally exposed." Is that not what Man Utd did on Tuesday and Liverpool at PSV did last week.
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Gerry, alas, I am phototropic, though I am 100% sure I see light at the end of the tunnel.
Hi Collie, you are very welcome, and thanks for that sprightly wee rhyme.
I take lessons from the best on how to deal with the gripes and groans.
Hugh, we have to try to move beyond ‘everything is great’ or ‘everything is awful’.
Most things are coming along to plan, sure they could be better, but you know what? Some have said that we should have hit five against Inter in ’67 – and they are not far wrong. Things could always be better.
The trick is to put the ‘problems’ into perspective before a lack of perspective becomes your master.
Parkheadcomesalford, you and me will be here to tell everyone how right we were about Gordon over the next few years.
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I'm looking forward to the St Johnstone game, hopefully we can get an early goal; if we can do that then i expect us getting quite a few more but if they survive the opening stages I'll accept a one or two goal win. It's one of those games that can be tricky.
I'm particularly interested to see how JVOH deals with Kevin James. Jan will be completely dwarfed by James who is 6ft 7. He will need to use his intelligence more than his physique for this one. It could be an interesting encounter but i suspect Jan will be too skillful for James.
Hopefully Hartley will get more freedon to attack from midfield. He's a solid defensive midfielder but his goals from midfield are much more of an asset.
I think we'll be seeing Deeks and Jan up front.
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Frank, Man Utd and Liverpool were a class above their opposition. There were few weaknesses to speak of, if any.
I think we could have suffered a fate similar to PSV if we were less cautious. Just before kick off against Milan at Celtic Park, I hoped we did not lose 0-3, which could have happened if GS got his tactics wrong.
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Off topic, but there was a bit of chat on the last blog about the old Glasgow Empire Theatre, I posted my favourite story just before Paul posted the new article, and since Awnawgubbedagain liked it i`ll repost it.Here goes....
On the Empire thread, my favourite story from those days was when Mike and Bernie Winters were appearing. Apparently Mike would start the show, and eventually Bernie would appear. Mike was doing his stuff, but bombing, so prompted Bernie to come on to the rescue. Cue Bernie, sticking his big daft heid through the curtains and gives it his "eeh eeh eeh" starter, when someone from the audience shouts " Aw for f***s sake, there`s TWO of them"!
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gweedorebhoy/frank from bedlington
Of course there are many, many of us all the world over who cannot get to games regularly - that is the nature and beauty of the Celtic diaspora and indeed what makes this blog the global phenomenon it is.
How would you have it? Only the 60000 who attend games entitled to log on or even entitled to have an opinion? A bit parochial don't you think?
Paul67 - great article even if you are a bit makeyourownwordupacious today.
And let us not forget whilst few of us are taking anything for granted about the quality of play on offer this year, we are on the verge of a double, our CL results were superb this year (ask Bayern and Roma fans) and the majority of our manager's signing have been SUCCESSFUL, as has the team overall.
For what it's worth (as someone who seldom sees live matches but watches the majority on TV and who trusts the opinion of friends who go to Celtic Park every game), I think we need a new midfield general who will boss on the pitch and give the middle shape drive and confidence. I would spend big for one as it is our greatest need.
McGrain, IN SPAIN but faithful through and through.
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