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Sorry but I couldn't help myself...
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Well said regarding ownership of our club!
Although I think the next'big'club to go the way of those you mention are the impecunients[?]of the South Side.
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Well said Shun
just read on an earlier thread that Japanese Striker Hisato Sato is linked with Celtic
3 goals in 13 games at full level
5 goals in 8 at under 21 level
think hes 25
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Another thought provoking article, good stuff Paul.
The key difference in recent times in England is the change from the super-rich fan buying his club as a plaything and investing lots of cash (a la Jack Walker) to the corporate buying for profit. The Glazers were very clear when they bought Man Utd that they aimed to make a profit and their track record in American sport backed that up.
It's one to watch I think, although hopefully those rich establishment types wouldn't look too closely at us.
And at a time when Murray is deperate to sell it shows what potential buyers think of the potential return on any investment in that club.
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I think we are after Naismith prob as a wide player as he can certainly play there.
we really have no cover for McGeady wide, he is really the only natural winger we have.
I think Naismith would bring an extra dribbling ability that Killen and McDonald prob dont have, hence the reason WGS sees him potentially as another lethal weapon in our squad
Look out for the release next season:
Lethal Weapon 5 -
Treble Winners 07-08
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i wonder how many buy like the glazers did, transfer all the debt taken on to but the club to the club. when this is paid off the club is still worth close to £1b say and the club paid off what they borrowed. essentially the let the club buy itself and when its paid off thats all profit.
Paul67, what i would say is they make such little profit in the prem and have so much debt what is there for investors? newcastle and liverpool were in a lot of debt when purchased
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Paul
What % of our shares are in fans' hands (and I'm not counting DD in that)? Also, I've rather lost track - can you say anything about the share purchase scheme(s) proposed by the supporters trust - is it now in operation and, if so, how sucessfull has it been?
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Lenninho, isn't Riordan cover for McGeady? Although Dek really doesn't want to play there... and I'd certainly rather see him either up alongside JVoH or in an attacking central midfield position, just behing JVoH and McDonald.
Should we be considering a 3-5-2...?
As a 4-4-2 I just can't figure out the best combinations in defence and midfield, but one option might be:
Boruc
Doumbe McManus Kennedy Naylor
Naka Brown Sno McGeady
JVoH McDonald
As a 3-5-3, do we include 2 full backs at the expense of wide midfielders, or vice versa with three centre backs?
Boruc
Doumbe McManus Kennedy O'Dea Naylor
Naka Riordan Brown
McDonald JVoH
Or...
Boruc
McManus Kennedy O'Dea
Naka Caldwell Riordan Brown McGeady
McDonald JVoH
(Caldwell can drop to make a 4th defender when circumstances dictate, or add a bit of steel to support Naka in midfield.)
I'm just glad I don't have to pick the team. And yes, I know that you are all equally glad!!!
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I apologise to the blog for posting this, but it is too good not to do so - this is from our friendly Scottich "newspaper" the daily ranker as pointed out to me by a hun in the office (he asked me if Momo had the same agent as Boumsong!!) -
FORMER Rangers boss Paul Le Guen is in a battle for the signature of one-time Celtic flop Mo Camara.
Le Guen is ready to bid £4million to take the Senegalese striker from Wigan to Paris St Germain.
But French champions Lyon are also keen on the 30-year-old and are prepared to match Le Guen's offer.
Camara spent six months at Parkhead on loan from Wolves under Martin O'Neill. He joined Wigan from the Molineux side two years ago for £3million but now wants out of the Premiership.
Camara, still based in Paris with his family, scored 18 goals in 55 games for Wigan who are prepared to let him go if the price is right.
Portsmouth are also tracking the player in the hope he can be persuaded to stay in Britain.
So, lets just run those ever so important descriptions one more time -
1 Mo Camara
2 £4 million
3 Senegalese striker
4 Plays for Wigan
5 Spent 6 months on loan at Celtic from Wolves under MON
6 Scored 18 goals in 55 matches for Wigan.
Now I may be getting old and the memory fails me on occasion, but that sounds more like Henri Camara to me. Or can anyone give me another explanation?
Just another example of crap journalism in our wee country!
Curly
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Paul67 - Spot on in your assertions. There are already a few hedge fund holders of Celtic stock - The ones i know of are also Fans. However should an offer come along they will be obliged under their fiduciary duties to give it due consideration.
CB
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Just wondering what some of you with financial knowledge out there think of the Man Utd situation. The club has some £800m in debts and needs £65m per year to service it.
Suppose that the English TV deal ended and the debt could no longer be serviced. I think it would be hard to find a buyer for a club with a debt that size. The question is, could Glazer simply declare the club insolvent, dump it and walk away ?
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i agree with paul, there is something afoot with the influx of corporate buyers....my feeling is that the americans in particular see the NFL model of franchise teams with no relegation and promotion as the one to follow....
...i would not be surprised to see a franchised league of 8 teams to start with , followed by other teams having to buy their way in after being invited.....buy in payments could be as high as £100 million with the fee being split amongst the original member clubs....the original member clubs and thise who pay to join would determine who was invited moving forward....
....if you extend the nfl model to europe then you could have a 40 team set up with 8 from england, 8 from spain 8 from italy and 8 from germany and then a further 2 sections of 8 from the rest of europe, possibly us, ajax, porto, psv, benfica, anderlecht, lyon and marseille....followed by olympiakos, panathanikos, fenerbache,galatasary, spartak moscow,cska moscow, copenhagen and zurich
you would then have regional leagues where you played the other 7 in your section - home and away and a further 20 games against teams from the other sections, in exactly the same way as it happens in the nfl....
the top 2 from each section and the next 4 with the highest points scored would then go into a 2 legged knock out.....
....the finacial benefits would be enormous and you would be competing to win a prestigious 8 team competition regionally with an opportunity to win the glittering prize once it gets to the knockout....
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Where is Mo these days .Might be on the Darnels radar.
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Cheers Dontbratt, Lennondinho, Gordon J.
Antsman, yes, very little profit has been made in the past, but that will all change.
Fiagottpf, the dividend reinvestment scheme will have its third annual income this summer, though the money raised has been little.
It is not clear what percentage of the club is in small shareholders hands (if that is the question you are asking), though I suspect it is a significant minority.
Tobi, Man Utd is a limited company, though I doubt the TV deal will collapse, and even if it does, Man Utd might even get their own TV rights to sell, which would be worth much more to them.
Citibhoy, the dominoes could fall quickly, just look how the Man Utd shareholding drifted.
Curly, ha!
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BigChipSuk,
I would possibly go with a 4-3-3 that the huns used on a few ocassions a few years ago, might be a good option for the SPHELL.
Boruc
Wilson Kennedy McManus Naylor
Nakamura Brown McGeady
McDonald JVoH Riordan or Killen
Regarding Doumbe, I didn't include him as I think he went back to France after rejecting the offer that we made mso he might be a no-go here.
/Bishop B
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Mo Camara?Surely Henri,former African POTY.
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Paul67
Would you say that a takeover approach for celtic would be based on immediate profit taking or a longer term strategic change in where we play our football?
I ask because you have previously stated a concern about Celtic maximising revenue only for someone to buy the club and then slash the cost base (i.e playing staff). This scenario becomes all the more realistic when there is no credible challenge from across the water.
Perhaps wishing ill on the south side separatists might actually hasten on our own worst fears?
#8
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That's not really answering the question, Paul. The question is, if they can't service the debt, can Glazer simply dump the club ?
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paul67
how much will it change, u have to spend to stay in the prem and spend big to get into europe. A profit to pay off debt and be a resonable return i would think at clubs like birmingham would be difficult
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Great No. 8, banking on a move to another environment would be high risk. There is enough income at Celtic (and Rangers) to run the club and retain a large profit.
Rangers are prime candidates right now, though the asking price might scare off those with commercial motives.
Tobi, sorry, Man Utd being a limited liability company means that shareholders cannot be pursued for company debts, though this is exceptionally unlikely to happen. The Gazers have an asset they paid lots of money for, they would not abandon it. £65m is a lot to pay in interest, but this is likely to be restructured; there is enough income to cope.
Antsman, you might think, but clearly there are enough investors out there who disagree.
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Barcabhoy,
I reckon your pretty close to the money. What´s never figured upon in all these calculations is how much money does UEFA make through football? The EPL ? the SFA ? the SPL ?
Can you imagine that your 1 billion pound investment is to be banned from Europe for 2 years because some of your fans are intent on causing havoc ?
Because a referee cannot look at video evidence ?
Becuase the governing body couldn´t organise a swally session in a brewery ?
Your 1 billion pound investment and parts of it (i.e players) and how it performs is open to the vagaries of UEFA and your national association. I think these corporate investors will not stand for such interference and will set up their own footballing quango.
This will suffice the G14-xx`s voracious appetite and split football into two camps for about 5 years the money making European elite and the rest.
The appetite for club football around the world is enormous. The World Cup is not sufficient for those countries without a top quality league (i.e the USA) and these guys will expand into these markets along with the Asian and South American markets. That´s what the billionaires have their sights set on.
At some point in the future we will have to decide whether Celtic will be a part of this or not. I think that our place in such a market is already guaranteed and that we will get the invite.
I think that the movers and shakers at Celtic park are well aware of this and are doing a good job in keeping the clubs profile high and increasing the investment and turnover in the club so that once the billionaires start to flex their muscles we will get the invite on the basis that it´s good solution for us both. I would hazard a guess and say that most of the bigger shareholders would take the plunge or we will go through a Glaser type takeover as we have a lot to offer in such a setup. In fact I wouldn´t be surprised if the Old-firm ended up in the same hands at some point. Not that it would be obvious.
It will be the end of the CL and the SPL as far as we know it and UEFA instead of being an extended arm of the Italian mafia will become what it should be and will protect the sport of football and develope it from grass roots level upwards to and icluding national association level.
The elite will remain untouched and for a few years anyway ignored until UEFA/FIFA realises that by using the elite players for their own international competitions that it will make them more money.
Interesting times indeed
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barcabhoy
We havelooked atthe NFL/NBA/MLB franchise type thing before in the context of trying to find a better system for us competing in Europe but your description is the closest yet to following the American model exactly.
For me anyting that takes us away from playing Fakirk and Caley Thistle four times a year has to be good.
We could then leave our reserve team to compete for what remains of the SPL on a saturday to saturday basis with the fans getting entry on reduced admission but still earning some money for the club when it is not playing the glamour games of the ESL (as in European Super League)
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Renewed season ticket by direct debit as normal.Should i have kept last seasons swipe card.
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There must be a huge possibility that we'll see a completely different formation next season than we did last.
Let's look at the players we have in midfield for instance. Both Naka and McGeady (as well as Riordan) aren't really conventional wingers and Naka at least seems more effective when he plays through the middle.
Now we have Brown and by the looks of it another dynamic midfielder will join is it not the case that we have the players more suited to a 4-3-3 or 4-3-1-2 formaiton?
Boruc
Wilson Caldwell McManus Naylor
Brown Nakamura Appiah (please!)
------McGeady-------
JVOH Riordan/McDonald/Other
OR
Boruc
Wilson Caldwell McManus Naylor
Brown Nakamura Appiah/Sno
McGeady/McDonald JVOH Riordan
Or some other variation of the same shape. We don't have one out and out wide player in the team so why not make use of our attacking full backs by giving them more space and freedom to move forward?
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Dynamocelt, Yes, I'm afraid, I think they'll be wanting a fiver from you for a replacement
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The 4-3-1-2 could quite easily change to a defensive tactic by switching the player in 'the hole' to a midfield anchor-man making it a 4-1-3-2
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Dear Paul,
I think there is a very real issue for us here and that it could manifest itself both suddenly and soon.
Witness the Glazer's behaviour in increasing revenue by hitting the fans in their pockets, and let's not fool ourselves it's only being done to service the debt. Perhaps yes in the short term but look out for dividends later.
If we consider the Scottish set up I believe that an astute potential aquirer would conclude that not only our short term but also our mid and longer term revenue potential far exceeds that of our traditional rivals and therefore despite a current disparity in possible costs of acquisition we would represent in financial terms a better source of returns on investment.
I also think that the European league issue discussed last week is one means by which an investor could conclude that there is more potential revenue available in the short term than the club is realising right now and therefore more upside value in any bid.
That is why I was advocating so strongly last week that we take a lead in pushing this opportunity.
These reasons should make us all the more wary and are the price of our recent success I guess.
Tobi, I agree with Paul that it's extremely unlikely that the Glazers will not be able to service the debt.
Were it to come about they would look to restructure the debt, find a purchaser or consider debt for equity swaps.
You can almost be certain if there are any losers they'll not be among them.
Barcabhoy, Can't agree about the no relegation promotion aspect of your argument. The guys that are in already have concentrated on the bigger safer players.
The stronger they become at the expense of some of the relative minnows the more secure the investment is.
No promotion or relegation would permit some of the smaller guys to invest more become stronger and represent a future threat to today's dominance.
Warszawa.
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Fans are the lifeblood of a Club.
BUT does it matter who owns the club?
As long as the clubs / board respect the fans.
I would rather the likes of DD, BQ and PL were running the club than 3 great supporters or elected fans etc.
If these new owners start to take to much cash out the clubs then the fans will start to percieve the club as underachieving and they will start to vote with their feet ... presumably orcing them to invest more in the club.
I would add that most of these clubs dont need to sell to Biliionaire owners (chelsea excepted as RA ploughed in £100m's)
ManU now have £500m debt and are not really any further forward than they were before the sale to the Glazers.
What could they have achieved if they had just spent that same money on players and facilities?
Once the debt is paid off these people have multi million pound assetss ... it's like Football buy2Let!
Hail Hail
Pob
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Interesting piece. Wide share ownership should protect us from the predators; Fergus McCann's vision remember?. What I wonder is this - why if this is happening in England is it not as prevalent in the other big leagues? Do they all have different models of ownership? Do we just not hear about it? Surely, a Spanish or an Italian club would be a more attractive business proposition than one in the SPL?
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Jeez Thanks for the info.The extra £5 will probably be used for one of Scott Browns bootlaces.
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Paul,Banglabhoy
I seem to recall that Fergus altered the Co's Memo and Arts at one of the EGM's in 1994 or so, so that the club couldn't be owned by a single entity or individual.
That of itself should obviously deter a predator.
Anyone else recall that or have a copy handy to check?
TLWIO
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Dynamocelt.
I think the replacement cost is nearer £25. A rip-off for a tenpence card!
BanglaBhoy
I think the Football constitutions of Spain and Italy forbid non-nationals buying the clubs!
109steps
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Yeah it's £25 for a new card.
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Excuse my ignorance but was it well publisized to hold on to your card?
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dynamocelt,
it was well publicised as an after thought ?
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Dynamocelt,
It was in the original documentation, the renewal advices, the big screens for the last 3 or 4 home games and I think the website. Having said that I know loads of folk who have had to empty their bins out to retrieve the discarded cards.
109steps
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A warning was on the big screens at Celtic Park several times during the last couple of home games, but i'd still argue that not enough was said.
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Anyone worried by WGS's record of buying single season donkeys? Players that we sign and move on within a year... In the first season we had Camara, Virgo, Aliadiere; last season we had Miller, Gravesen, Jarosik, Pressley and Hartley...who will next seasons be?
Will Virgo ever be good enough? I remember saying at the time, for £1.7m paid for Virgo we couldve had Hartley, Riordan and Wilson (all at the heights of their performances)....instead we waited 12-18 months.....
Mind you, MON possibly wasnt much better in later seasons - Camara, Juninho....
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Enough to buy new laces for SBrown,SMcdonald and half of CKillen.
All these arrivals must mean lots of departures-maybe a stretch limo rather than a taxi will be pulling up.
We are obviously spending a lot of money on the fabric of BobbyLennoxtown.How much are we going to spend on the personnel?
I had always thought the Dutch,and more recently the French,had a sound record in bringing through young talent but in the Euro under21s which have just kicked off the Italians have won it 5 times out of the last 8.
So when Parma are here perhaps we should ask them what the Italian secret is for consistent success at this level.13 out of the 24 in the WC winning squad also have u21 titles so not only is the talent being identified in young players but they are also capable of continuing their development into senior level and beyond,which can be the more difficult and frustrating part of the process.
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Dunfydave
We didn't pay anywhere near £1.7 for Adam Virgo, I think the figure was nearer the .7. I think Gordon is averaging a better than 50 / 50 return on players and I certainly don't follow that Hartley should be written off after a dozen games for the club. Similar with Pressley, he was always a short term signing.
I also think it's actually refreshing to have a manager who sells players at the right time and is not afraid to sacrifice his own signings. His record with Coventry and Southampton was similar where he made alot of signings and moved alot of players on. I think it's pretty difficult to predict how players will settle in - did anyone ever blink at the sigings of Gravesen and Jarosik?
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Hi Paul,
The football season is over and we are back to CQN's core reason for existence (shame on you who thought this was a football blog that mentioned finance, it's a finance site that concentrates on Celtic lol) However one thing puzzles me, haven't Celtic already been bought over by a foreign investor? I don't know the exact percentage Mr Desmond owns but I'm sure if push comes to shove it's his voice that would carry the day. Where I would say you are lucky up to now is that he does seem to have a genuine love for the club so at the present moment financial matters aren't the uppermost in his mind. It could happen though that Mr Desmond hits a bad time or needs a lot of cash for some other investment, then you are in the same boat as any club with a foreign owner. It doesn't even have to be a foreigner my own club are in a far more hazardous position and we are owned by a Scotsman, but I would agree that foreign ownership can be a dangerous two edged sword.
BarcaBhoy :- That system you have mentioned would probably work well as far as it goes but I have to admit I would hate to see it happen, the minute we allow money only to dictate who gets promoted/chosen to play in the big leagues is the start of the death of football as we know it.
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thismancraig - I agree...just trying not to get too excited by any signings until they start playing to the standard I'd expect. Gravesen has been a major disappointment. So too has Hartley. I reckon Jarosik may improve if played in the middle of the park (Interestingly, I think the two times that Gravesen and Jarosik played in the middle of the park together were the home drubbings of StMirren and ICT). Elvis has been a short term signing and I hope that is recognised by moving him on...its worked, but he looked painfully slow in the Cup Final and didnt win anything in the air. Hartley, I reserve judgement on for now....
Virgo? Anyone anyone? Virgo? somebody must want him....
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Thanks to all for the replies i will now get the good lady to stars raking the bins.
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Edward,
DD and Minty are at opposite ends of the market at the moment. DD seems to be cashing in at enormous profit whereas Minty has not enough fingers for his dykes.
DD doesn´t need to make any moves and who can grudge the man his position. He has had the foresight and made the investment to get himself into the position that he is in. A lovely position to be in I am sure he feels. It´s all win win for DD at the moment I reckon.
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Edward
I think Dermot Desmond has somewhere in the region of 30% of the shares in Celtic, there was an issue at the last share option of having to change the rules regarding a formal takeover. I'm not sure he's ever going to hit a bad time but if he does - this is how he finds some money...
London City Airport
Desmond purchased London City Airport from Mowlem for £23.5m in 1995. The investment was considered a large risk as London's Docklands was in recession and Canary Wharf was in receivership. The airport has since become one of the more profitable in the UK. Desmond sold London City Airport in October 2006 for a reported £750 million (€1.2 billion) to a consortium consisting of insurer AIG, GE Capital and Credit Suisse.
That's why it makes me laugh when people say he is just waiting to make money out of Celtic. I can't wait until he makes similar return on us as we'll be up there with Real Madrid if that is the case!
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Remember Ed,there has never been a better time to be a supporter of deRangers!
Your expectations for the coming season must be so low,and ours are so high,that there can only be one set of supporters checking into the Heartbreak Hotel if things don't go according to plan..
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Tobi
I think you might have hit on a scenario that hasn't previously been discussed, albeit it would have lawyers in a flap.
As Paul said the 'Limited' part of a company means the liability of the shareholders is limited to the amount they paid for their shares. If they've paid for their shares they can't normally be chased personally for any other debts unless they have issued personal guarantees. However you lose all the money you paid for the shares should the company bo bust.
BUT if you borrowed the money anyway, lumped it in with the Club's debt and lumped in a whole lot of other debt that you were carrying around, you could walk away from a bust company and the debts would die with it.
Say I have 3 companies, all with large debts. I buy Fulham for £100m and borrow the £100m to do it. The £100m is lumped in as a debt of Fulham once the takeover is complete and I then restructure my companies and transfer the debt of the other 3 companies to Fulham too. I fart about at Craven Cottage for a year trying to make them the best team in Europe then call in the administrators or a liquidator and walk away. No debt.
Pretty convoluted stuff, I'm sure there would be legal challenges. The courts can unpick and undo a series of transactions where illegality can be demonstrated.
I reckon the Glazers are not trying to dump debt but had never thought of the possibility. I've seen it happen in reality with smaller firms, asset stripping etc. That is illeagal.
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TMC,
we may well be up their with Real Madrid who haven´t won anything in a while but we shouldn´t forget that if it wasn´t for the stinking corruption of Madrid City Council then Read Madrid would be up there with Fourth Lanark.
It´s all supposition just now but I think we should refrain from judging anyone until their actions can be estimated.
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Awe_Naw
I read somewhere that the deal to sell the training ground was not actually as murky as people make out and that it was more of anti-perez story than any actual corruption. Having said that, I don't know too much about it - my meeting with Jorge Valdano in 2003 didn't get any further than 'Celtic Glasgow'!
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Coincidentally, Fan Ownership is very important in India too. Especially when the air conditioning isn't working.
I'll get it. Ma hat, ma coat.
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TMC
I just dont think that it´s safe to assume that DD will do the same with Celtic plc as what he has done with London Airport. We´ll have to cross that bridge when and if we come to it.
Only after the last tree has been cut down;
Only after the last fish has been caught;
Only after the last river has been poisoned;
Only then will you realize
that money cannot be eaten.
HAIL HAIL
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Chennaisebird,
It will bring about a wind of change for sure ;-)
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Awe_Naw
I know, I just use the London City Airport as an example - this is a guy who made 30 times his money on a single deal. I'm not sure how much he has spent on celtic but his likely return does not compare to that above. I know that this is an extreme case but it provides me with some comfort that he's not here to make money on us. I could of course be absolutely wrong - I usually am!
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When/ if push comes to shove it will be interesting to see DD in action. Is he just a hard nosed buisnessman and such an opportunity to make a killing out of Celtic is to much to refuse or is does he now have enough to enable himself to indulge in a little philanthropy. I believe that the answer of course is somewhere in the middle. I keep my fingers crossed.
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Didn't Dermot Desmond say something along the lines of never selling his shares and didn't he also successfully sue the Evening Times when they said that he would?
How much of the suspicion Dermot Desmond is saddled with is a legacy of the old board's impact on our psyche?
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ANNAOAN :- I agree with your summation on the two men, I didn't say that Mr Desmond would sell up, personally I don't see it myself but the fact is that if he wanted or needed to he could. Though not as vulnerable as Rangers due to the respective shareholdings the club is still vulnerable to one mans whim.
ThisManCraig :- As I said above I didn't say he would do it, and I agree he has far more attractive eggs in his basket that he could unload if needed for cash the point I was making was that Celtic are mostly owned by a foreign investor who could sell up tomorrow if he chose and in that way are in a similar position to many clubs recently taken over.
DBBIA :- Owch that one drew blood :-)
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Awe_naw
Just as long as it's dry!
BlantyreKev
Good point about the influence of the old board(s).
I've frequently been at a loss to understand the dirt dished out to these guys when you think about what we've had in the past.
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BlantyreKev,
I think the mistrust of the old board is only a mild factor here.
There are far more common issues here with regards mistrust.
I mean how many of you would trust an Irish man ?
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While I admire your attitude to fan shareholdings, I fear the worst for the future in this regard Paul.
I expect at some point in the near future for someone to come in offering big bucks to DD and the other big shareholders to get control of their shares and then pick off the rest(the fan with £500 in shares that they got for their birthday) with a take it or leave it offer.I don't think we can rely on DD or anyone else for that matter. If shareholders get offered a decent price for their shares they will consider it and often sell up. There are no such loyalties with men like Desmond.
Such shares would be irrelevant because you wouldn't be able to vote on anything. There would be no AGM to attend either if it was decided to take the business private. The only thing you would get is the odd 2p per share dividend every few years that would just add insult to injury for the fan who invested for love rather than business.
Also regarding debt, leveraged buy outs (borrowing the money to buy a business- which is then in turn saddled to the business itself) are on the up and I could envisage someone looking at Celtic and looking at the long-term returns and strong cash-flows as a motivation for buying Celtic and saddling us with oodles of high interest debt just to get access to the brand image and the season ticket sales for years to come.
So what to do? Get us all clubbing together to buy shares? I doubt that we could raise the funds.
I would hope that we could attract a rich Celtic supporter that could see our Club as something more than a cash cow. Sadly, I don't think that it will be quite so straightforward and expect that as the top clubs in England are snapped up, other investors will be looking for a club that guarantees returns. Long term it is difficult to see Celtic as anything other than a good investment in this regard.
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aw naw.....
i suspect DD is in for the long haul.....there are few things better in life than being financially able to indulge something you have a passion for....and from what i know DD has a genuine passion for Celtic....he doesn't need to sell it to make money, and even the most succesful people in business don't do every deal they could or cash in on every asset....
on the other hand....there are few things worse inbusiness life than having a business which is proving to be a millstone round your neck , because you don't have the cash to invest in it, and is tarnished because of failure and a bad reputation.....
....thats the difference between the respective major shareholders at celtic and rangers nowadays....
edward...money is already dictaing who plays where....gretna being just the latest example of the process.....i believe that the scenario i outlined is one of a number of skeletal ideas that are under consideration
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Barca,
Agreed but if you look at your scenario concerning Rangers at the moment that may be the scenario that DD finds himself in with regards to a new setup for Celtic. We might need to push the boat out heavily to participate in a new setup and DD might find himself caught between a rock and a hard place.
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aw naw.....
the differrence is that DD would be financially able to make significant investment , should he wish to and should it be required in the scenario i outlined.....
murray is unable to make the investment required even for the spl.....
...in an 8 team section of us, ajax, porto, psv, benfica, anderlecht, lyon and marseille then we would be finacial heavyweights....although without such a big advantage as we enjoy in the spl....
under those circumstances there wouldn't be a need for DD to invest beyond what the club can generate ourselves.....in any event my guess is that if this comes to pass it will be accompanied by a spending and salary cap similiar to the US model....
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Barca,
what about in a newly created 20 team section that contained Chelsea, Man U, Liverpool, AC Milan, Inter Milan, Bayern, Juventus etc.
Would he prepared to sanction the necessary spend then ? Would he want to ?
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One of the few advantages of staying in deepest darkest Ayrshire.Went to a few watering holes on Saturday night and played a wee game.If any supporters of the Darnel walked by then one of us would burst out laughing.When they asked what we were laughing at one of us had to give a sarcastic reply.
See Hearts have signed Naismith.
For every £5 you spend we will spend a tenner.
Rangers didnae really want Scott Brown
They got quite angry as the evening progressed.
Any suggestions for this week.
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Paul67
As to, da rumours about da Son o' da Sun Arisin'?
Dey are Pukka!
An' mebbe der is a signin', on da Horizon!
collie.(Sneakin' a Peek!)
Tail's Awaggin' Tail's Awaggin.
Byeeeeeeeee!
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aw naw....thats a question i suspect only dd knows the answer to...i certainly couldn't say with any certainty....
however in a model where we were an equal partner with the clubs you mentioned in terms of receiving an equal share of tv and marketing revenue, then there is no reason why any of them would outperform us financially...
...in the us model...it is fanbase which determines the revenue stream not location....i think Washington, Philadelphia, New England, Dallas and Houston are the nfl franchises which generate the most income....none of them are in the major population conurbations such as New York, LA or Chicago
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Barca,
"in terms of receiving an equal share of tv and marketing revenue,
"
That´s the crucial issue. We´ll just have to wait and see.
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Just a thought, but I wonder if the possible arrival of Hisato Sato would be a friendly face in the team for Nakamura or his replacement for us in the Japanese market?
Hopefully it would be the former.
/Bishop B
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Hisato Sato ...mmm
CaltonTongues
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barcabhoy,
Philly Eagles are one of the lowest teams in the NFL in terms of income. Dallas Cowboys and Washington Redskins were top in the last list I saw.
Interestingly, I think this shows that tradition outweighs anything else, as these are two of the oldest teams and neither has been terribly successful in recent times.
New York has two teams (Giants and Jets) so the fan base and income is split.
LA does not have a franchise, and has not for many years. It used to have two but the moved out - the downside of the franchise system. There is a real hole in LA sports, which is partly the rationale, I think, behind the investment in a Mr Beckham.
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gordon....you may well be right, i wasn't totally sure myself, so i checked the nfl's official site and the list of the top 5 came from an article on there...
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Put away those copies of the Financial Times, forget about the Fortune 500: here is a club we have a generally forgotten connection to, and which has problems very like our own. See last paragraph for interesting proposal for a partial cure.
Lisbon Lions lost a few too.
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Sato's goalscoring record isn't exactly exciting is it?
I thought we might have made a move for Yuji Nakazawa (defender) who seemed like a decent player at the World Cup.
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Even when LA had 2 NFL teams they were only'borrowing'the Raiders whose spiritual home was Oakland and who have gone back there.
How much money do the Green Bay Packers make?They are a very traditional team,coming from a relatively small city,but who are owned by the Green Bay community,making them resistant to having their 'franchise 'shipped to somewhere warmer and more populous.
The Packers are the only non-profit,community owned major league team in the U.S.,and are based in the smallest'media market'
They have over 111,000 stockholders holding over 4.7M shares.No dividend is received n these shares.
DBBIA/John Madden CSC
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SACK DUFFIELD
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Malone_86,
Not sure what stats you are looking at mate but this looks pretty good considering our highest scorer wasn't close with more apperances.
2006 App 33 Gls 18
2005 App 32 Gls 18
2004 App 44 Gls 20
2003 App 30 Gls 9
(Stats taken from Wikipedia)
One goal ever two and a bit games is pretty good, and considering he is only 25 means that his goal average over the last 2 or 3 seasons is probably a better indication of the player now he's maturing.
/Bishop B
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Calton .
Good spot. Looks a good player, although some of the defending makes Elvis look like Baresi. Guy can certainly finish. Well worth a punt.
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wonder if we are scouting the u21 tournament on just now
Can anyone tell me why players over 21 are playing? are you allowed so many overage players or something?
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Barcabhoy.
DD. Is a very shrewd invester who is a Celtic supporter,And he's also not into making money out of Celtic,If he wanted to do that he could have done it anytime, There's been chances to increase his shareholding and he's refused to take it up.
He wanted Celtic to be a viable club in its own right,and with PL we have the man to fulfil that.
And we also have the Manager to give us a team that will compete with the best that europe can throw at us.
DD does'nt own Celtic,But off all the people that own football clubs in the UK,I doubt if theres one that has more money than DD.
Celtic is in safe hands.
I'll need to lay of this Ossie Sharaz,On my second bottle and its lovely.
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Collie .
I was at Celtic park to-day,There was no activity except workmen making Paradise look even better than last season.
No Reporters ,No Cameras,In fact I was the only wally dug there.
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Paul67
Nice article but Dermot Desmond is not a philanthropist first and a billionaire second and neither are 99% of the billionaires in existence.
He'll make what he feels to be a sound judgement based on medium-long term financial return and also the goodwill received for being the majority shareholder at Celtic.
I'm sure he's already done a sound costing of the amount of money it would take for him to say his cheerios. From the way the share price has risen during the past year I would say the time for DD to sell is still a fair way away as there are still quick gains in the share price to be made from the longer-term investor but given we are now a business run for the profit of shareholders, it would not come as a shock to see a Glazer-type investor plunge Celtic into huge debt in exchange for shareholders making a tidy sum.
The vast majority of shares are now in the hands of few men and the possibility of a single person/cartel gaining the necessary 75% needed should not be underestimated.
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Heard about this from a colleague of mine today I've seen dogs, cockerels on the pitch but this owl clearly enjoys football!
Owl (Huuhkaja) at Finland-Belgium football match
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oldtim
i think a certain mr abramohvic would argue on your point "all the people that own football clubs in the UK,I doubt if theres one that has more money than DD"
desmond is reputedly worth around 1.4 billion about an 1/8th of roman
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Floyd/DSOTM update on Celticdelia
" New car, caviar, four star daydream,
Think I'll buy me a football team "
WatersGilmour
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Babelfish translation
Ma. 11 June 2007. the last news reads you first on NU.nl
GLASGOW/Munich - be not yet name can Celtic-fans pronounce, but the supporters always Jan Vennegoor or Hesselink have, however, immediately closed in their heart. Ex-spits of PSV made the winning aim point at its debuut immediately. In Germany Roy Makaay knew less successful act. Makaay are gladly a good friend of Vennegoor or Hesselink and want to shot country. He has played against cell tic in the Champions league three years suffered and was under the impression of the "Boys". According to Makaay its agent has already spoken with the manager of cell tic the small vromalige Scottish international player, Gordon Strachan. "Mijn agent held a conversation with a representative of cell tic, peter Lawell. Naturlijk I have known Jan for years, we have together played at PSV and he is very enthusiastic concerning cell tic. I found it very difficult at Munchen and perhaps am it time for new 'challenge' to zoeken. We will see it this way, I have time zat".
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sdstim
That was brilliant!
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Antsman.
You are right when you mention Abramohvic(your spelling)He is without doubt the richest owner of a football club.
Let me put it this,I know where DD's 1.4 billion came from.
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Looks like we're going to line up with Artur in goal, 5 centre backs ahead of him and 5 strikers ahead of that - if all these signings take place!
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edb -
SCOURGE DUFFIELD
Teser calls
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EDB
Certainly knows it's way round a football field and was some size too.
Protected species, so they couldn't bother it.
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sdstim
Tremendous in the air but didn't see enough on the ground to make a judgement LOL!!!!!!!!
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oldtim, i apologise for the spelling error
Let me put it this (your grammar)
Where his money comes from is not an issue, it is legitimate in the uk which is all that matters.
i suspect there are several more as well, the kronke chap at arsenal for example.
As DD is not the owner but just a shareholder i assume thats what u meant not owner
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Big News
Roy Makaay has agreed wages, deal announced very soon.
Kittoch
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you serious kittoch?
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Antsman.
When I put "your spelling" That was because I was'nt sure how to spell his name,I must apologize if you think I was digging you up on your spelling.
If your digging me up on my grammer another apology,I've been away from the classroom for going on 55years,I'm just learning to read and write again.
