 Friday, July 20, 2007
Leeds difficulty leaves an open space in the Football League
A thoroughly fascinating situation has arisen in English football. That most odious of camel coated custodians, Ken Bates, guided Leeds United into administration in May before Leeds United 2007, the company he is chairman of, bought the club back from the administrator KPMG this month, offering creditors a deal reputed to be 13p in the £1. Many of the creditors squealed, including HM Revenue and Customs who were over £7m out of pocket, but Bates’ new company, Leeds United 2007, now own the business, including all remaining assets, and have banked season book renewal money from thousands of fans for next season. So far so good you might think, but in completing this transaction, Leeds United 2007 separated themselves from league membership. The Football League have a clear rule on administration designed to protect clubs and players from financial failure that could result in a domino effect where one failure pushes other clubs over the edge. This rule states that before a club is allowed to operate after administration, it must pay all football creditors (including players) in full. Since the formation of the FA Premier League, a total of 42 Football League clubs have entered administration. Each of the previous 41 clubs complied, if this rule was not in place, it is difficult to imagine the contingent consequences for football in England. Earlier this month Bates asked the League to approve membership for Leeds United, now owned by Leeds United 2007, which the League declined, citing it had not received the necessary information from KPMG to support the application. The share in the Football League which previously belonged to Leeds United is currently unallocated and Leeds United 2007 own a football club, which does not have a league to play in. Bates had hoped that the League would approve his application on the grounds that it was in the best interests of the game, but the Carlos Tevez affair at the FA has tempered any desire to expedite a resolution which might not be legally watertight. This must be a living horror for Leeds United fans, though I cannot help but feel irony is extracting a bitter reward on their chairman. It was Bates who in 2001 asked unprepared Premier League chairmen to vote on inviting Celtic and Rangers to join their league. The vote was never in any doubt, as no chairman had a mandate to vote in favour, and was designed to close the door on the Glasgow clubs. Maybe we should return the gesture to Bates and offer to make good the football losses for a place in the Football League. Labels: Finance
543 Comments:
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1st?
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Lovejoy, from previous article, I’ll do it tonight, promise. I was avoiding this place last night.
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a place in League 1? hardly the most exciting prospect...
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Bates is an odious little man, there's a good article in this months When Saturday Comes about him and his previous underhand dealings. He seems to feel the need to be high profile through football and Leeds have been the unfortunates in this instance to have him in charge.
League one eh? we could be in there with another European cup winning side.
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from last thread .....
The U2 soundcheck comment was a class comment. Spot on.
Bobo is our best defender (imho) but Strachan is looking for a CB that can play the ball out intelligently and safely. That Mc Manus and Pressley are being entrusted with this duty without Lennon´s cover is a worry. Especially as the weak sided are of the defense (right back) has to be covered by slow Stephen Pressley. I also think that somebody has to pull Pressley aside and hammer into him to play the game and forget about his inept attempts at influencing officials.He has a penchant for that and it´s a sign for any player that the game is up. Actually I wake up screaming in the middle of the night in a cold sweat over that one - regularly!!
I think it´s important that Strachan gets a consistent defence. First 5 names on the team sheet every week. No tinkering there please. We have a plethora (my english teacher will be well pleased) of centre backs, strikers, midfielders and a dearth of full backs and wingers.
I know it´s against the Strachan philosphy but he has a perfect squad for a 3-5-2 formation. Naylor would be sacrificed though and that is patently not fair.
So if their still is to be a WAO signing then it has to be either a right full back or a forward. My head says full back but my heart says striker.
My only wish for this season is for the football to be more dynamic and entertaining. Not in America but on a cold December Saturday at Parkhead oooohh and for us to draw Prague in the CL pre-qaulifiers.
Hail Hail
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Paul
Don't blame you :o)
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Mido to Birmingham for £6m.
Now that is taking the p...
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Matt-the-bh-agreed it's not exciting[apart from 2 fixtures against the mighty Carlisle-but it would get us into the Premiership in a couple of seasons[d.v.]and then who knows..
How much do Leeds actually owe?Sometimes you have to sceculate to accumulate.
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dbbia, according to the Beeb, Leeds United has debts of £35m, with HM Revenue & Customs owed £7.7m in unpaid taxes.
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Paul,
I see you are no longer dismissing my suggestion of 2 weeks ago. I couldn't reply to your reply then. I wanted to say that I had been talking to a Leeds Und season book holder and he was very peeved off about Bates. I think the supporters would welcome any solution that did not involve him. Maybe we could enter a team in both leagues initially, if we can take over them and then move them lock, stock and barrel, if we gain entry into the Premier League. My Leeds Und friend was sure this scenario was going to unfold because seemingly some other consortium had offered more than Bates and were passed over. Interesting times.
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Paul
I know that I mentioned out of chaos may come change but it would need to be change for the better.
I do not think that League one would provide that and also having no European nights to look forward too.
And whilst I know that Leeds have an over average number of moronic fans they also have a history which includes the great Billy Bremner, Lorimer, the Grays, Joe Jordan as well as Johnny Giles.
I would hate the club to disappear if only for the sake of these men.
Bates may be odious...no is odious but I have an affection for this club that goes back to my childhood.
I fondly remember my all yellow strip (save the blue and white stripes on the arms) with the sock lapels and the number 4. Ah well you can't put your arms around a memory.
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An intreuging situation indeed. In these days of league shares owned by clubs we move just a little closer to the American franchise system.
In a "pure" league system, as football used to be, the top x of the second league were promoted. No criteria outside final league position existed.
In a pure franchise system, owning the place in the leauge allows you to move the club, subject to economic criteria. That's why the former Los Angeles Rams are now the St. Louis Rams.
We are currently in more of a hybrid situation in fotball where criteria exist for promotion apart from league position, i.e. finanical, size of ground etc. Indeed, criteria exist to remain in the leaue, which is where the much maligned Mr Bates is now in trouble.
The question has to be "What happens next?". If Leeds' owners cannot satisfy the rules for remaining in its league then in theory someone else could buy the club and meet the criteria. Are there any league rules against moving a club once you own it? Is cross border ownership an issue? What would UEFA's reaction be to a club moving leagues by the back door? Interesting times indeed.
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It's unrealistic to think we can parachute into the EPL,or the Championship,for that matter so this is a theoretical solution to the problem of moving the club up a couple of notches in terms of football and TV revenue.
OK it's effectively Div 3 but it's giving us a chance to build up to the EPL.And as only one place is up for grabs we wouldn't have the cashstrapped goons of G51 chained to us.
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Gor J-once you own the club you can move it[Wimbledon>Milton Keynes,Clydebank>Airdrie]What you might not be able to do is move it over the Border.
I don't know how serious the proposal was but their was talk of Wimbledon moving to Dublin a few years ago.
What is possible in England is to start the club from scratch again and move back up through the league pyramid.Aldershot are doing it.I imagine it's hard work but in the long run good for the soul;)
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it wouldnt be allowed.
bottom line.
fanciful nonsense.
in saying that...
i suppose man city are thai.
i suppose chelsea are russian.
west ham are swedish
aston villa are american
man utd are american
so why cant leeds be scottish????
their stadium isnt owned by LU2007 so leeds united 2007 are not tied to where they play and theyd need to play somewhere.
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the only downside of div 3 is no euro nights for a couple of years , the games against carlisle etc imo would be no worse than gretna,st mirren or ict .i remember the uproar caused by the proposed move by wimbledon to dublin i dont think it will happen but it would be fantastic for our club if it did
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RRDH-I know all those Scandinavians look the same but WHU are Icelandic
DBBIA/NoggintheNogCSC
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Paul,
I can see elland road from my office. As it is payday I can nip over and buy them just now.
Just advise Gordon and the Bhoys they are flying back to leeds/bradford not Glasgow.
The rags
promotiontothechampionship07/08 CSC
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Out of the frying pan of a meaningless friendly defeat to the fire of an 'ain't-gonna-happen' scenario. A non-starter, as just as the epl turkeys wouldn't vote for Christmas, neither would the Division 3 turkeys. And Sky wouldn't drive a move to that division.
Meanwhile back at the football, we allow Boyd and now two Columbians to score against us - the defensive reality we have is going up in a puff of (white) smoke.
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Does anyone know how the league system works in England, how many leagues do you go through/win before reaching the EPL.....if you start at the very bottom?
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Gerry-knock yourself out!
http://www.thepyramid.info/asp/pyramid3.asp
i make it 20 to get out of the Lancashire Amateur League Div 7.
When Gretna joined the SFL they were midtable in the Unibond 1st Division,7 promotions away from the EPL.
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dontbrattbackinanger,
Can't someone (lets say DD) put a team into the bottom of the English leagues and let it be known, if they ever reach Div3,2 or 1 that games will be played in Scotland?
If they ever reached say Div3 then they join forces with Celtic FC......where there's a will there's a way.
if only we done this 7 years ago...:-)
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Paul67
Have you been reading any of the coverage in the Guardian by David Conn?
I find his take on financial issues really insightful and I also owe him a debt of gratitude for advising me on my own investigations into football finance back in the day.....
The latest from David was that the directors of the new Leeds company may in fact have acted illegaly (any surprise) in not applying for the right status to serve on another companies board given they had just liquidated the previous Leeds company.
On a side note, how Peter Ridsdale retains a job in football in ay capacity beggars belief.
#8
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dbbina
it was gonna annoy me all the next minute...i was typing thinking thats not right but couldnt put my finger on it.
yep jon paul sigmunsen did look a bit like henrik ;-) or was he finnish
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Henrik wasn't Finnish but he could finish.Harald wasn't Finnish but..
Gerry-Cleator Moor Celtic are only 10 promotions away from the Premiership.Most people in England think Cumbria's in Scotland anyway,so DD could start there.And they wouldn't have to change strips.
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Late breaking news items!
Ex Rangers target Faubert is out for 6 months with a knee injury.
It is expected that Scotland's most famous dis-organised crime syndicate and failed gambling oligarchs will now relaunch a bid.
This followed on from a leak from the report by City of London police:
No charges will be laid by the City of London police at the door of this magnificent institution and guardian of 17th century tribalism.
The leaked report to the DPP in England continues:
"The documentation we examined could not have been the product of grown men or adult intellects.
This was obviously a prank by naive children who understand nothing about finance, business, football administration and codes of ethics.
It is likely that they will now be long gone 'doon the water' on their summer holidays with their mothers, fathers, social workers, probation officers and carers. Anyone offered a a deal for a football club in exchange for two bools, a dead frog and a solidified second-hand oose-covered bit of wrigley's spearmint should immediately report the matter to the janny in charge of the playarea"- End of statement!
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Parkheadcumsalford, Steelica, I am beginning to think things look very bleak for Leeds. There are several obstacles which could prevent them from continuing.
TheRagsWe.. please do.
Great No 8, I do occasionally read him, but had missed that information.
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A minor point for several who are commenting on the defender situation esp why is xyz not playing etc please be aware that the likes of O Dea and Caldwell have been unfit as is the case also I believe with Evander Sno.
I also believe that it is conveniently forgotten that till Caldwell's injury he and Mc Manus had formed a very solid centre back partnership. No need to panic as yet.
That said re our USA displays I am in the camp that feels that pre-season or not we really do have to work harder at putting on a show so regardless of what the professionals may think the paying fan deserves better than he's getting.
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If my memory serves me, the geographical movement of clubs in englandshire is restricted to a 50 mile radius from their original location, any move that is further than this is deemed to be not in the interests of the clubs fans, it is this rule that allowed Wimbledon to move from South London to Milton Keynes,
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I'm still firmly of the opinion that there would be only pluses for Celtic in establishing a presence in the English leagues even if it were at the very grass roots for now. In one stroke we would create a platform for our young talent to gain "league" experience as well as conditioning the clubs and supporters to accept us being around. The presence woukld also be with efficient use of the loan system an opportunity to showcase talent who no longer fit in our plans but need astage to perform to attract bids. Instead of wishing and hoping this would be positive action. Really what's not to like? I know I'd want to watch them.
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I suppose come the end of the season the friendly results will be a distant memory.
I have been monitoring the friendlies over the last week or so and I notice that Chelsea, Man Utd and Arsenal are playing opposition of a similar quality to us and they just don't seem to get beat. They sometimes draw but they usually win. Now are they fitter or are do they have a winning mentality.
I don't expect to win every friendly, but at least a draw and a goal or two.
Notice I don't compare us with other 'heavyweights' who got beat by a German team the other night.
As for the Pressley debate....slower than a week in jail and definitely not fitter, faster.
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AWNAW,
The defence lacks pace and will always be exposed to class strikers. Not something we have to fear in the SPL but CL class strikers will punish us unless something is done
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To use a phrase we old Marxists have handed out a thousand times, it is no coincidence ...
It is no coincidence that our best defender is the last survivor from Martin’s time.
It is no coincidence that in the last three years we have a dismal record in pre-season friendlies and competitive games.
It is no coincidence that fans of Coventry and Southampton are on record as pointing out that Gordon CANNOT build a defence.
It all stems from this: Martin learned his craft from, indeed is a 21st-century version of, Brian Clough. Clough knew that the worst thing to face as a pro was a mentally and physically mean, hard, assured team, founded on an uncompromising defence. For all their progressive football, his championship teams had hard, hard men at the defensive core, playing a highly drilled and well-understood system, centred on big guys and organised/organising guys (I you’re lucky the big guys are also organisers – cf. K Burns). Young players at centre-back are anathema in such a system, in fact young guys in defence in general are a bit suspect. For Clough/Martin football is a difficult and often nasty business (remember Bob Paisley in an unguarded moment: "You never get anything here" [Nottingham he meant]) – one for grown-up, unpleasant men. And, in this school of thought, winning is a habit, there are no easy, warm-up, get-to-know-you matches.
For Gordon, judging by his teams and his published comments, football is a mixture of athletics and chess. To be in his side you have to train well, speak clearly (no mumbling), listen to what you’re told and play where you're posted. Diet is important, also clean and tidy appearance (the only thing he has in common with Clough). Defence is a matter of organisation and concentration – the correct position, the well-timed interception, the simple but effective pass.
I can tell you, having watched plenty of Aston Villa games over the past few years, Juan Pablo Angel would not have scored against a Martin team. Why not? Because he’d have disappeared, literally possibly, figuratively for sure, within 10 minutes of bumping into Balde, Vargas, Dolf, Jackie Mac, Valgaeren, or any of the other bristly grown-ups that populated Celtic's back line up to three years ago. I say with absolute confidence that not one of the players Gordon has introduced would have been in Martin's first-choice back-line, with the possible exception of Naylor. And, let's be clear, that was a very good defensive team indeed: had it had a goalie like Boruc it would have won a European trophy, in large part thanks to a number of clean sheets away from home (Blackburn, Liverpool, BoaVista ...).
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The Football League have a clear rule on administration designed to protect clubs and players from financial failure that could result in a domino effect where one failure pushes other clubs over the edge.
lots in that.
I never understood why he kept the name so closely linked to the old company.
If he were a businessman surely he would have looked for another way.
Folks get busted for dropping debt all the time a la phoenix.
Simpleton version.
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Deliasmith ,
Football has evolved since MON era.
MON's management style is outdated. Watch him struggle in EPL even with bucketloads of cash. For all MON's strengh and hard men for players in our european run in 2003 we won sweet FA. Imagine what a little bit of skill or extra fitness could have achieved that season eh?
Imagine us signing Marlon Harewood. Even the most purist MON diehard wouldnt let him away with that.
Last night we were poor. In fact Martin took a beating in the good old USA aswell. Liverpool and Man U
humped us 4-0 and 5-1 respectively. It happens. Unfortunately its tradition for us to get humped preseason. No matter which messiah is at the helm.
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Why should AV struggle next year under Mo'Neill?Leicester didn't struggle,and AV are a bigger club with some serious money behind them,and what is turning into a fruitful Academy.
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Paul67
As you know i am very keen for us to find a way into the EPL.
However this seems total "pie in the sky" to me.
It ain't gonna happen.
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On a serious note.
Just when are we going to wake up to the fact that Mr Strachan is wasting Millions ,almost every time he buy's a player.
The financial advantage that we have had over The Darnel,is being wasted.
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The issue isn't results in pre-season friendlies. It's the quality of footballer at the club.
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I know I’m going back to a couple of articles but the time zone and other factors have got in the way. I haven’t read much about the game last night as I was down at the BMO Stadium in Toronto for the Argentina/Chile game which I’ll get to later.
Last night’s defeat has once again a let down the NA supporters, we pride ourselves on being faithful through and through and yet the club comes over here for a training exercise, this unfortunately is a sign of the times as in big Jock’s day it never happened, he was the Mhan who coined the phrase that Celtic do not play friendlys someone should have reminded the “Blessed’ MON and WGS of this. Once again TGFITW have been let down.
Last night I had the pleasure of watching the semi of the FIFA Under 20 Cup, weird night as there were thunderstorms going all day long and it felt like a summer’s day in Glasgow as I sat in the stadium with the rain pelting down. I had my Celtic rain jacket on as I sat among the Chile fans, widnae have been hard as they were the largest group there.
I quickly started to favour their side as they were playing the best fitba in the first half although the Argie goal was a cracker. The postulating and theatrics of the Argentian side opened an old wound in me, I know that a lot of the young ones on here adored Maradona, love Juan Roman and put the Argentinean side on a high pedestal but for this ould Tim I shudder when I watch them, Alf Ramsey who I’m not a great fan of as I reckon he ruined the game called them animals and whether he’s right or wrong those on here who witnessed the River Plat and Athletico games will testify to seeing the ugly side of fitba.
The Madrid side who were managed by an Argentinean had at least six Argies that night who were not first team picks and their job was the kick and maim the Celtic players, if they were red carded as most were so what the wouldn’t have been playing in the return match anyway.
Our greatest living player was kicked and spat on the whole game which left a sour taste in the fans mouths similar to Rapid, I know I have no time for the Austrians national side or any of their club sides and cheered heartily when Everton gubbed them similar to Bayern beating the Madrid side, why oh why do our fans still rate the Argies, baffles me.
This young Argentina side is good, in fact they are very good but all this rolling around and waving imaginer cards is disgusting, it brings the game into disrupte, as for the official last night he clearly lost the plot and a good game was ruined by his favouring the corned beef mob, I for one will be rooting for the Czechs on Sunday.
As I left my seat at half time a passed a young Canadian/Argie and did the diving impression saying they were scandalous, he defended himself by saying that was their game, don’t I know it, a couple of Chileans jumped in and one said “listen to him man he’s Celtic he knows how to play the game” Felt good.
Moving on, the last couple of days on this blog have been a disgrace, as the bard, who I don’t really have much time for said “O wad some Power the giftie gie us. tae see oursels as ithers see us” and some of you on here want tae take a good look in the mirror cause yer halos are slipping. Paul son you’ve done a good job as usual in calming the waters but it NEVER should have got that far.
As for you pppp45 or whatever yer name is you say that you don’t post often and will leave the list unless the dug apolgies, good cyber hard man away and bile yer heid and take yer self righteous pals with you as you’re the problem no the canine. Why should Collie apologise if he in his mind has done no wrong, who the donald duck made you infallible, let he who has not sinned right enough.
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Delia...
Unfortunately for your argument, those big, bustling defensive types, tend not to have the subtleties required for starting an attack from the back. Hoofing it up the park was more their style to the big, bustling centre-forward. In other words, a 50-50 ball. In Europe against good teams this tactic tended to end up with the ball coming straight back into our half.
And while we're on the 'ifs'... If MoN didn't have Henrick Larsson, the ball wouldn't have stuck up the opposition half quite as long either.
Off-Topic, anyone know anything about Uncle Toms Cabin in Blackpool?
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Danny 14.36
You are bang on.
Instead of having several misfits for one position we should have fewer players of a higher calibre.
Also we have several options for some positions and very little if no cover for others.
We won the league despite Gordon Strachan,not because of him.
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TinyTim,
Can you tell me which players we have bought under Gordon Strachan that we have wasted millions on? Which players will we see no return on our money from?
Boruc? I would have thought he would reach 10 times what we bought him for.
Naylor? We turned down a bid of £1.5m from Fulham, we paid £650k
Naka? We paid, depending on you believe, anthing from 1.5m to 2.5m, I think we may get a wee bit more than that back for him.
Kenny Miller, free, Gary Caldwell, free, Riordan 175k, Donati 2-3m, Brown 4.5m, Mark Brown, free. Mark Wilson 0.5m.
So really the only players we might struggle to get what we paif for them would be Zurawski, Jarosik and Gravesen, although given the level of Premiership spending we might get it back on the latter two.
Any others?
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The history of clubs is not as clear as we think.
Aberdeen were invented to give the SFL a national appearance. They were bounced in over the heads of other, smaller, less interesting contenders.
New Brighton Tower were invented to make the amusement park of the same name a little more viable.
Arsenal moved to find a less crowded part of London in which to find/create an audience.
Bradford (Manningham) were not even a football team and were parachuted into the EFL because the FA were concerned at the encroachment of Rugby. They had never kicked a football before they got League status.
Newcastle and Gateshead tried unsuccessfully to enter reserve teams into the Scottish Third Division that stumbled along for about three and a half seasons in the 1920s. This at a time when it made geographical and travelling sense for them.
Leeds United (oh the irony) were invented to fill the vacuum left when Leeds City were thrown out of the League for financial dodginess.
Where there is a will there will always be a way. If Celtic bought the defunct Leeds Utd and fulfilled the terms of membership, there is no way legally they could not be allowed to do what they wanted.
All that we wait for is a club or FA to make the final leap on some matter in a court of law to prove that football has to follow the laws to which all other companies have to adhere.
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On the subject of Argentina, can anyone tell me why Celtic fans chant "Argentina" to English football fans?
Never been able to work that particular one out!
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Afternoon all
Time for another boring Great_No_8 post on player appearances…….
The following is the starting eleven for the first 6 games of last season:
Boruc, Wilson, Caldwell, McManus, Camara, Nakamura, Petrov, Jarosik, McGeady, Miller, Zurawski.
Boruc, Telfer, Caldwell, McManus, Wilson, Nakamura, Petrov, Jarosik, McGeady, Miller, Zurawski.
Boruc, Wilson, Caldwell, McManus, Wallace, Nakamura, Petrov, Jarosik, McGeady, Miller, Zurawski.
Boruc, Wilson, Caldwell, McManus, Wallace, Nakamura, Lennon, Jarosik, McGeady, Miller, Pearson.
Marshall, Wilson, Caldwell, McManus, Naylor, Nakamura, Lennon, Pearson, McGeady, Miller, Zurawski.
Boruc, Wilson, Caldwell, McManus, Baylor, Nakamura, Lennon, Gravesen, McGeady, J VoH, Zurawski.
Obvious point to make is that not all signings were made in time last season so the starting eleven was changing every week. It is however interesting to note that the defence was fairly static in this period with Boruc, Wilson, McManus and Caldwell playing together in 5 of the 6 games. I am hopeful that our manager will attempt something similar this season though the European qualifier may see his more conservative side come to the fore again and change the selection/tactics.
Further to this, the following is the team most oft picked by Gordon last season (based on starting appearances in all competitions):
Boruc (51)
Telfer (29), Caldwell (26), McManus (44), Naylor (46)
Nakamura (49), Lennon (43), Gravesen (23), McGeady (31)
Miller (27), JVoH (26)
Again some interesting points emerge. 3 of the back 5 from last season are stick on’s for this season. Boruc, McManus and Naylor will continue to form the nucleus of the back line. Wilson and Caldwell look to me to be the likely candidates for the other slots.
In midfield, both Lennon and Gravesen have been replaced by younger, faster and more ‘disciplined’ players. This is a huge change for any side as we all know how important the engine room is to the team. This leads me to think that Hartley might give some sort of continuity in the early months of the season as the two new recruits find their feet. On the wings, unless we are moving away from 4-4-2 then I think both Naka and Aiden will continue to be the first choice starters.
Up front is where competition will hopefully be at the most fierce for places. No striker covered themselves in glory last season or broke the mythical 20 league goal barrier (Kenny Miller was the only striker to start 20 league games). Just shows how blessed we were with Sutton and Larsson…… Anyways, I think a first choice of JVoH and McDonald supported by Miller and Killen (and maybe Magic) will be the chosen partnership. The front players offer a lot of options and it is worth noting the versatility of Miller in playing a wide role or lone role should circumstances dictate.
All in all, I think last seasons top performers give us the following 6 definite starters for this season:
Boruc, McManus, Naylor, Nakamura, McGeady, JVoH.
Add to this the big money signings of Brown and Donnati as well as the impressive showings of McDonald to date and I think we are almost there towards a first eleven.
Gordon talks about character and leadership a lot. I think a spine of Boruc, McManus, Brown and JVoH is a strong one and should provide the leadership needed to take Celtic forward.
Yours in Celtic,
#8
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Miketw10-I think it goes back to the Falklands War,as in'my enemy's enemy is my friend';given that at the time the situation in Norn Iron was'different'to today.
I was standing in the Jungle and saw 2 bhoys who had made strips that were 50% greenandwhite hoops,and 50%skyblueandwhite stripes.
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Delia
Can you remember the results of Matin's last pre-season tour of the Sttes?
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bambi
what about the best part of £3M on hartley and virgo
miketw10
think it stems from the hand of god incident, then augmented by beckham sending off
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Weren't there any Scots in the British Army then?
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Last nights result really means nothing on paper but highlights what for many season ticket holders i think is the major issue.
Building a team with a defence that allows our entertainers to shine.
Call it team 2 or whatever but last year we were a very poor side to watch and the entertainment value was low. Half empty stadiums tell a tale.
Yes we did have a magnificent run in europe for which i am grateful (will never forget the san siro even if i was quite drunk!)
In the league we played some shocking football. Boruc won us many points. lenny protected a very poor defence and naka supplemented the poorest strike force we have had for years.
Despite all this we won the league and have a solid platform to build a good quality side.
We must build from the back. While it is great to have Brown and Donati. Money must be allocated to full backs and a centre half that can play football.
O'Dea and JKennedy are prospects. Balde is nearing the exit.
Pressley we all agree is not good enough now.
McManus whilst celtic through and through looks lost when the ball is on the deck and one of the worst when positional sense is taken into account.
Caldwell is frankly as poor as pressley but a lot younger so he will get another club easy enough.
A strong defence and a good side to watch will define Strachan as a manager. I feel he has the ability to build a cohensive defense but will he have the money?
We only have to beat the huns to win the league. It's a shocking league full of rubbish teams and players who can hardly trap a ball.
Europe is where we want to be and the players we have need help.
So we have a a few weeks to prepare but i would like to have the defence sorted sooner than later.
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toonbarmy...
I suppose that would make more sense...?
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Tinytim,
We spent 1m on Hartley and around 600k on Virgo, the mythical £1.5m figure was mostly add on based. Again out of all those signings, most of which we will make a lot more on than we spent you came up with 2 players. Remind me again we are wasting millions???
Don't get me wrong, I don't rate some of these players but as long as we are winning and making more money on selling players that don't fit in than we spend then Gordon earns the right to keep buying. I'm just glad the players keep winning us trophys despite Gordon being such a bad manager. We must be doing something right.
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Gweedore,
Sorry to disagree with you again, we were doing so well too, but IMHO McManus, Caldwell and O'Dea all kept clean sheets at CP in the CL last season so they can't be too bad can they. Again we seem to be saying that we acheived these results and clean sheets despite the players playing, rather than because of? I don't really understand that argument? Surely if they were so bad they would have been found out against all of our opponents both home and away.
We played 180 minutes of football against the European Champions without conceding a goal, how does that fit in with the picture you have painted of our atrocious defence?
I tend to see the glass full rather than empty and of course these guys have their weaknessess and I'd like to see us sign another couple of defenders but these guys we have are nowhere near as bad as we are making themout to be.
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There were 4 Strathclyde Police cars outside Ibrox when I passed today at 2:20pm. Of course they could have been inside renewing their season tickets.....
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Tinytim, I presume we got to the knock out stage of the Champions League despite of Gordon Strachan, not because of him also?
We waste millions on players he signs, Boruc and Nakamura were mistakes?
The wasted millions on Miller, Caldwell, Riordan, Pressley Gravesen and Jarosik will not actually work out earning the club even more when they leave?
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Nope,definitely 1982.
I think after Maradona and Beckham it may have become more generalised but CP was one of the few places you could go and hear'Argentina'being chanted,which I expect is one of the reasons Maggie T wouldnt come up to draw the Paradise Windfall.
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Paul,do the wasted millions you mention depend on whent he players leave,and for how much?
Am I straying into amortisation,say if TG sits on the bench for another 2 years,drawing 40k a week?£2M per year?
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Well well well
How long have I been telling you all about GS'S inability or refusal to build a decent defence. It will again remain the one area that he will ignore in the hope that it will be alright on the night.
At least some of you are now spelling the coffee. Gordon Strachan cannot build a defence and this will always be our achilles heel. Stephen McManus as a potential captain tells you all you need to know.
We have not managed one cleansheet in our pre-season friendlies so far and I believe this will be the case in most games we play even in the SPL which will always need us to score 2 in every game to be sure of winning.
I long to eat my words and just maybe the top drawer defenders we need will be brought in before the window closes but somehow I doubt it.
This is now transfer window number 5 for Gordon please buy at least 2 good tough defenders.
Please.
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miketw10, “Argentina” was first shouted in 1982 when the Falklands war started.
You would not believe some of the stuff heard at CP around the early 80s.
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Well, well, well inthedark, good to hear from you after a friendly defeat, but remind me, what did you post when the defence kept a clean sheet for 180 minutes against the European Champions?
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DBBIA...
I bow to your superior knowledge! Like I say, I honestly don't know and I've certainly lived down here since before 1982.
All I do know is that it left my English wife and half Scottish sons feeling confused too.
Now that I know the real reason, I can let them know the reason so that they can feel unwelcome among their own support too.
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Apologies that should be smelling the coffee not spelling.
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Bambi
Don't think we are disagreeing i rate O'dea.
Caldwell and McManus will do ok against the dross we will come up against in scotland. In europe we had the much malinged lenny protecting the back four and also sno.
My point is i want a defence that alllows the midfield to play.
We have flair players but no flair play.
If we have a strong reliable ball playing CH then Donati and Brown can win and keep ball will Naka and Mcgeady help out the strikers.
At the moment I feel we lack this dynamic.
Anyway McManus and Caldwell are just part of the equation. A major issue is the full back positions.
God strike me down for saying it but at the moment we will miss Telfer.
What will happen if Naylor or Wilson are unfit for the CL qualifer?
Caldwell at right back and Hartly at left back?
Anyway as i said I don't think we are far away from the same viewpoint.
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bambi paul67
resale value is fine, but u have to factor in wages and bambi thats where millions will have been wasted. that is never recouped
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Paul67 15.26
Amazing to think people used to make a noise at CP :-)
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Paul, I would believe it!
They still do it! I know it's meant as banter and a wind-up, but aren't we meant to be an all-inclusive club?
I went to Parkhead enough as a kid listening to the proud chant "We don't care if we win lose or draw..." knowing full well that they did!
Confused or what?
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Hi Paul
Glad to be back. I have been abroad for the last couple of months and not had much time to post.
Regarding the 180 mins against AC Milan it was and still is my view that AC Milan took the stance that 1 goal was always going to enough against us as we had no great threat going forward again only my opinion. They were very unlucky not to score in the 90 mins.
I would agree that in this match the defence performed admirably but I have seen many teams and played in teams that have come to Parkhead and managed to hold out against some very good Celtic teams thsi does not mean that my team had a great defence but that they played out of their skins on the day, had a lot of luck and that Celtic's strikers had a bit of an off day.
I repeat this defence will continually leak goals which will ultimately prove very costly.
I think you have underestimated the type of team Walter Smith is building at Rangers and they will be aided fully by the charlatans who call themselves referees in this country.
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inthedark makes a valid point. Defence has been a weakness since the end of the MON era, and is frankly little better now. I don't think Strachan actually has much of a strategy for this part of the team where we are short on quality, pace, strength, and cover.
Paul67: yes we kept 2 clean sheets against Milan, but that was because we were barely out of our own half for 210 minutes. We had, essentially, a ten-man defence.
The trick is to keep a clean sheet with maximum 4 defenders on the park...
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Paul,
I took a wee wander over to Elland Road, unfortunately the store has a "Cash Only" sign in the window and I only had my chip and pin with me.
Quite appropriately their stadium sponsors are LSS waste management.
I am going to put a Celtic top on the statue of Billy Bremner one night. He deserves more.
The rags
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bambi,
" remind me again we are wasting millions???"
Regardless of signing fees,
If Hartley and Virgo are on 10 k a week each,
that equates to over £1m in wages per year for the pair of them.
Also take into account the plethora of higher earning under performing squad members ( Jari, Majic, Miller et-al), and, the fact that we allegedly lost Shaun Malloney to the EPL over a measly £100k a year, then i would say we are wasting or should i say, misspending millions a year.
What we need to see is, to use an Americanism,
more bang for our buck
That is why as much as i was uninspired by the purchase of Killen and MacDonald, i can't argue with the financial aspect of their signings. Wages aside i think we will get value from them both, Majic needs a rocket up his preverbal and MacDonald could help spur this.
Killen also might be able to show JVH how to work defenders more, an area i was quite disappointed with from his displays last year.
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Antsman,
A wee question for you? If we recoup a couple of million for a free transfer player, does that count as recouping wages?
Can you tell me a club in the world that makes money on players, recoups all the wages spent and still wins trophies?? I wouldn't have thought there were any.
I would have thought if we win trophies, compete in the CL each year and don't overstretch ourselves financially we would be doing ok, it appears not. Ideally the football could be better, no doubt of that, but lets wait till the season starts and we have all our new signings in, our team settled and the players we don't need or want are away, then we can judge surely?
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Interesting article from vital celtic
Some salient points some a bit harsh but a good read
Apoligies i don't know how to add links!!!
Unless Celtic boss Gordon Strachan has plans (and hopefully he does) to bring in a quality centre-back, then what is the point of getting rid of Bobo Balde?
He's miles better than either Stephen Pressley or Steven McManus - I know that Mick plays left centre-back but I'm talking in general here!
Elvis should be shown the door as soon as possible. When he joined in January we were in a position where we needed cover, and Elvis was always going to be an easy option as he was without a club and wanting to prove a point. After a couple of acceptable displays, he faltered and no longer brings much to the team.
McManus will, in my opinion, never make a good centre-back - far less a Celtic captain, and that would involve him playing every week. Sorry, but Big Mick's just not good enough to be doing either. However, Strachan will take the easy, dull option and name him as captain.
Gary Caldwell is a joke, but the joke is on us! Anybody who saw some of his displays last season know exactly what I'm talking about. Not only do Celtic fans worry when his name is on the team-sheet, but our opponents probably get something of a boost!
Mark Wilson was a good player for Dundee United but he's out of his depth at Celtic. It's a shame because he tries hard and seems to have the right attitude, but he's one of those players who seems unable to make the step-up in class that is needed to play for Celtic.
Darren O'Dea is currently injured, but he looks to be the best left-sided centre-back we currently have on our books. Hopefully, Strachan can see what a lot of us can see and that is the future-captaincy potential of O'Dea. He's still not the finished article, but he's still learning and I'm sure he'll get there.
And then there's John Kennedy. All of us want to see him return after his problems, but he still needs to get his sharpness and mobility back. He's still a bit overweight but that should surprise no-one given the amount of time he spent away from the game.
So from all that, it seems we're in a bit of trouble if we don't sign any new players - and we may as well keep Bobo Balde and hope he gets his form back. Not that we've got much choice if he wants to stay, though...
Or am I being too harsh and getting more worried than I should be? Probably, but I still have no doubt that while we should win the league at a canter again, we could have problems reaching the last-16 of the Champions League again - and that must be our main aim.
At least the waiting will be over in a few weeks...!
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Testing 1 2 3
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Inthedark, thanks for that take on the Milan game, you sound a lot more balanced now that you did in your first post of the day.
There will be more excellent defensive performances this season, in far more important games, I hope we hear from you then.
TheRagsWe, how ironic (again). They only accept payment with the Her Majesty’s head on it. Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs servants will be amused :-)
Toonbarmy, antsman, can I make a prediction?
On our managers signings, I predict that we will start to look at precedent and soon the name Joe Filipi will be mentioned.
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The most unbelievable thing I heard at CP in the early 80s was when the ground would chant'Sullivan!'in honour of the great Dom,or more accurately after we had won the League and we would go round all the team in turn.
The role of team scapegoat is an honourable and longstanding one,and DS bore it with rare good humour.
ACM got the result they wanted home and away.After the MU game they knew the main risk was from Nakamura,and how many freekicks did they give away in his range?
None.
That's real,professional,disciplined defending.
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Guys,
Can someone be good enough to post the phone number for Setanta again ? I need to moan about paying 6 quid more than my next door neighbour....
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I think a few posters are being a bit harsh on Mark Wilson. He was beginning to look pretty good before injury hit. He is young and will improve and i can see him being our first choice right back for years to come. My concern is more one of who our second choice right back may be.
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gweedore,
I still hope that Wilson can be the player he was before injury, ditto JFK. But the article is spot on about Pressley and Bobo.
Touch harsh on Mick, but he does sometimes look like a white Tebilly...
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italiabhoy
Agree im hoping for
Wilson O'Dea Kennedy Naylor
Frankly McManus as captain would be a mistake.
Don't get me wrong Love the guy to bits. i will always remember his mad tackle at Livi that injured himself. i was about a meter away from it. The guy is celtic through and through but that is not the only criteria for captain.
The sooner pressley and caldwell are moved on the better.
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Gweedore, the article.
If we sell Bobo but do not plan to replace him, there is no point. Hmmm. I could add:
If we sell Artur but do not plan to replace him….
If we sell Naka but do not add to replace him….
In fact, if we sell the team bus, but do not plan to replace it, we will pick up no points away from home.
I suspect that if we sell someone we will plan to replace him.
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Henriks_Sombrero
Good luck with Setanta! I got absolutely nowhere seeing as I had paid the year's subscription up front - you might have more luck if you pay monthly. After getting nowhere with them by phone, I emailed customer services. I got an automated reply saying that I would hear from them within 5 days. That was over a week ago, and I've heard nothing back from them. Totally scunnered with them - they need to learn a thing or two about looking after their existing customers. Think I'll change to being an exiting customer after this contracts ends! Grrrrrrrr.
lynnssetantahatinggreensocks
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Paul
Would these excellent defensive performances you allude to be performed by the current cast members of the defence if so I would disagree or are you confident that the 2 good strong defenders we need will be signed.
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Paul i agree if we sell our best defender i would hope we plan to replace him. I would accept bobo going if we use the cash to bring in a quality CH.
I also hope we plan to punt our deadwood very very soon.
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inthedark...
Who do you suggest we replace the 'current cast members' with?
Bear in mind when you answer,
1. Their pay demands, and
2. The attraction of the SPL
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miketw10
Re Argentina I would have to say that I could not have agreed with the sentiments expressed at CP at the time. The English may have many faults and things I don't like about them but they are not the only nationality I would hold that view about. I prefer to take a view of the man/woman not the nationality or religion.
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derbyshirebhoy...
Agreed!
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The irish have always had a great affinity with the Argentine cause in fact alot of the songs were generated by a great song by Brian warfield of the wolftones about Admiral William Brown the father of the argentine navy and a great man even if he was from mayo!
Admiral William Brown (also known in Spanish as: Guillermo Brown) was born in Foxford, County Mayo, Ireland on June 22, 1777 and died in Buenos Aires, Argentina on March 3, 1857. Brown's victories in the Independence War, the Argentina-Brazil War, and the Guerra Grande in Uruguay earned the respect and appreciation of the Argentine people, and today he is regarded as one of Argentina's national heroes. Creator and first admiral of the country's maritime forces, he is |
