 Wednesday, September 19, 2007
Failure in Donetsk heralds a year of profligacy on the road for Celtic
The mistake from Stephen McManus which led to the first goal will grab the headlines, but it was a suitable token of how Celtic started the game against Shakhtar last night. We hear how games can be won in the tunnel; it was clear Celtic entered the field with the game already lost. McManus was culpable in front of goal but several of his team mates had already set the tone. I expected Paul Hartley to replace AIden McGeady in the starting line-up, but could not understand why he played at left midfield instead of the holding role he did with such effect in Moscow. After a bracing brace from Shakhtar Hartely moved into the middle and Celtic were never under the same pressure again. The damage of dropping all points last night was limited by Milan beating Benfica. Milan will qualify; it is therefore important that they take as many points as possible form Benfica and Shakhtar. Despite their comfortable win, Shakhtar did not convince me they would threaten a form team. We did not get to find out if they can defend, or cope with a team capable of accurate passing. If Celtic fail to keep a clean sheet in their next fixture at Easter Road they will have completed an entire year without doing so in an away fixture, which must surely be a record for the club, indeed, it would be for many clubs. Three or four games on the road without a clean-sheet would be a concern in other times, but a full year tells its own story; away from home, Celtic are not good enough to keep any team out. Over to you Gordon. Labels: Match Report
308 Comments:
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first
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Intersting point and not 1 I had realised about not keeping a clean sheet for a year (unless we count Milan after 90 minutes).
I have this debate with my mates a lot about why is it so different playing away from home. I think its more of a mind set than any physicality as both pitches etc will be roughly the same size.
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the performance was almost as bad as your spelling, Paul.
ach, sure if you didn't laugh you would cry.
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So how was the trip Paul? Since its only the 2 of us over here.
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Naka was poor last night. I think he has lost confidence after the moscow game. hopefully he can get that back quickly.
The 2nd goal was caused by a poor cross from Wilson that didnt beat the first man, Shaktar then went down the field with the majority of Celtic players out of position or chasing back.
The crossing for most of the game was woeful - had the team not practised with this ball? It's not like Celtic couldn't have got some from addidas before hand to train with.
January - 2 Quality fullbacks with the £12M+ (not to mention the CL money we're going to earn this year) that is sitting in the bank.
Hail Hail
Pob
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Paul67-
you say the game was lost in the tunnel but previously you had indicated the players were bursting to get on the pitch.
Can you explain what happened in between to reverse the mindset, was there some kind of fall out before the game?
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Mick cant control under pressure and as I have said umpteen times will get found out in big European games. Caldwell lacks pace. However watched AC Benfica and Benfica arent clever.
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Positional change apart, we played for the first twenty minutes or so like a team coming to terms with a different level of skill and pace from they were used to. That we had to make the adjustment and paid so dearly before we could was a great disappointment. If I want to look for encouragement it's that the progress up the learning curve was visible.
Last night was a big night for many, not least Skoosh and Dinky (his new name, copyright me). Hopefully they're quick learners.
We now need to beat Milan or Benfica (the latter would be better, going by Paul's theory.) Well, why not? Hopefully, team 3 has learned how not to start European games.
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A whole year without an away clean sheet truly would be astounding. I am aghast that we are on the verge of what must be a record for a top flight team especially on playing SPL football. It simply raises the issue again of the culpable failure to address the defensive frailties during the summer. No wonder the CL teams are content when they draw us. We as a support have to bring to an end this feeling that we are up there with the big boys. Other teams and their coaches do nothing more than patronise us - the constant references to the wonderful support at CP is equal to "sure the team is pretty average but the crowd makes it very difficult to communicate on the pitch". Most CL teams are disappointed if they do not get at least a point against us, home OR away. That tells its own story which again traces its roots to a weak defence. Somebody tell me what the answer is - and I know its not "get behind your team" or "we played well in the 2nd half"
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Killerheels - I too thought the same thing. The teamtalk must have sent out the wrong signals.
It's about time we went out had a right go at a team away from home. At the very least, it will be a different way of losing.
When Naylor wanted to waste time in the first minute, Shaktar sensed our fear. Only seconds later, we decided to play the ball all the way back to Boruc, not confident in our ability to retain possession. You know the rest.
The defeat aside we really need to beat the first man with cross balls - this is a big issue that needs addresses immediately.
As for the squad, it is safe to say that we paid the price (once again) for not investing in the defence. I agree with many that the full backs are out of their depth at this level. The modern European game requires an athletic, pacey aggressive full back. We don't have one.
A bit of perspective is needed though - this is a location where Barcelona were defeated not so long ago.
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That is an incredible statistic re away games, and it tells us that collectively the defence are nowhere good enough. Given the fact it's Artur behind the sticks, it is even more of an inditement on those who have played in the back 4 during this period.
There were plenty warning signs on Saturday - you don't often see a 5-0 victory when the losing team creates so many excellent scoring chances.
Whilst our collective CL away record is obviously dismal, the reality, taking every game on it's merits is that you can only punch above your weight on the odd occasion. When it's £40m v £7m and you're away from home the outcome is predictable 90% of the time.
Anyway, onwards & upwards and I will be there at Easter Road to give the bhoys a cheer.
On a separate note, someone castigated Donati for being one of the worst players last night. Couldn't disagree more. Whilst he disappeared for 10 mins or so in 2nd half I thought he was our best player in the middle as regards having the confidence to hold and pass the ball under pressure - the sign of true class.
And on a positive note.....I do believe WGS when he said all players & management would learn from last night. His starting tactics were wrong last night but he has been proved right more often on the big occasion. The fact that we have so many CL novices should also be remembered.
Hail Hail.
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It's not the end of the world as far as the group is concerned, but we have a hell of a lot of work to do to qualify. And by qualify I mean not finish 4th.
Comparisons with last year are not really valied. Yes, we again lost the opening away game, but last year it was to the no. 1 seed. This year it was to the no. 4 seed.
Milan at home now becomes even more of a pressure game. A point would be a good result and a draw in Portugal a great one.
The two games against Benfica will be the key the the group for us. Any less than four points would be a disaster. Six would be great!
But now the focus must go onto Sunday. We need to get straight back to winning ways and put the pressure onto Rangers who kick off an hour behind us.
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Last nights performance reinforced my anxiety about our lack of quality full backs & experience at centre back. Our Scoting Team can find us world class players like Boruc, Donati & Nakamura, but what is the stumbling block when we're trying to acquire defenders of the same ilk? If Gordon Strachan & Peter Lawell have a genuine total football vision for Celtic, then its a waste of energy bringing in genuine quality players like Massimo Donati only to put them in a team with hit & hope full backs. It's nonsensical to me - like putting Ronaldinho in the Gretna team. We failed to address key positions in the summer & surprise surprise that was our undoing in Donestk.
My expectation before last nights game was not for 3 points, merely to compete & when alls said & done we were well beaten by a much better side who had pace & a football brain. There's been much debate about the wrong formation but if a player makes a mistake as McManus did, you can have 10 holding players - it makes no difference. Shaktar will carry the same goal threat when they visit Parkhead, so it would be foolish to discount them.
In reality i suppose we shouldn't really be competing when our opponents net spend is 20 times greater than ours. We need a wee reality check there i think.
We’re definetely on a par with Benfica & if we can pip them to a UEFA spot, I would happily take that along with some good home performances & a draw in Lisbon.
The other topic that Gordon Strachan touched on pre match was our restriction in unearthing talent from the South American market as this is not open to UK teams, so teams like Shaktar, Benfica & PSV Eindhoven can scour these markets for sublime players & sell them for a nifty profit in a few years. If that ruling had to change we would be laughing. Look at some of the gifted brazillians in that Shaktar team – natural football players who can make a difference.
Paul - is there anything the Club can do in terms of debate on home office re- employment rules for non EU players?
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tully57
I agree re: Donati. He was perhaps the only hooped player to show the composure and vision on the ball that is demanded of a player in the CL. McDonald demonstrated vigour but the rest were, well, like a travelling Celtic team of the past 5 years or so.
Crossing - why do we rarely threaten from corner kicks ? Why do the big lads rarely get the heid on the ba' and if they do, often send it over the hills and far away ? Why is the success rate of crosses, ie beating the first man, not much better than 60/40 ?
These may seem like topics from a mineshafter's conference but I would rather debate these than pat ourselves on the back having beaten Inverness CT (population circa 40,000)(bank a/c circa 40,000) 5-0 at home.
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The defence were certainly guilty of many things last night, but can't help feel that if a certain Dutch striker had been able to hit the target with his headers last night then it could have been very different. Second half one may been unfortunate, but the first half chance was a border line empty net given that goalie had wandered off.
And a big up for the officials - not only for knocking off the third goal, but also for letting Scott Brown have a bit of lee-way. Can think of quite a few officials who would have been only too happy to wave the red card at him.
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First and foremost I'm in the club that’s delighted to be in the CL proper regardless of what we do once we get there, a Uefa cup parachute being the height of my ambitions, the coffee not only smells good it tastes great.
Chances are that the powerbrokers at Celtic are in the same club. To deliberately weaken the squad by selling Kenny Miller knowing that we had already qualified for the champions league proper kinda lets you know what our real priorities are, and winning the CL isn't one of them.
I am puzzled though at why we have a back four that can only perform at this level with a minder sitting in front of it. How have we got ourselves into this position? Surely we should have 4 players at the back more than capable of looking after themselves?
Like everyone else I agree the fullbacks need to be 'rested', along with Nakamura, though in his case the need for a rest looks genuine.
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Perspective folks. If ICT can create numerous chances against us at Celtic Park, then we should not be surprised that a home team playing in the CL will do even more damage.
IMHO there is a fundamental lack of balance in the team / system when teams are able to create so many chances against us.
Would love to know the reasons why and how to overcome. Here's some thoughts, would welcome others views.....
Front men not closing down well enough at their end? (I appreciate workrate of SMcD but not enough & think we struggle with JVOH's lack of mobility).
Lack of truly defensive midfielder?
Lack of defensive strength being the flip side of our midfielders' creativity? (How often is your heart in your mouth when Aiden or Scott Brown tries to turn & dribble away from an opponent when deep in our own half?).
Lack of fitness in midfield as game goes on - witness Massimo's diminishing return as the second half progressed last night.
Full backs either off form or just not quite strong enough defensively.
Centre backs not commanding enough in air and not winning balls cleanly. How many weak headers/clearances land as a second ball at the oppositions feet?
Notwithstanding the above I am NOT a mineshafter (honest!). I just think for all the excellent individuals we have, and the fluent football we create, there is a massive down side in the shape of how easily teams can play through us. It's up to the manager and his staff to identify & sort the problems. I just hope that victories at the SPL level do not hide the problems underneath and that the work in progress that is Celtic can move on to a better level.
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All of a sudden, Benfica have become the weaklings who we can take points off, at least 4 maybe 6 ? Again, two reality pills followed by large whisky required. Why don't we start from the premise that we are the weakest team in the group and each game we play is a cup final. If that attitude (one slightly closer to reality) was adopted across the board (and no, that's not an oblique reference to THE board), then we might just might spring a few surprises.
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I cannot stand the whole "keep it tight" ethos
its a 1 off game with 3 points at stake
this keep it tight nonsense will never work for us, we shud be an attacking team, FULL STOP
We have one of the best home records in the entire competition, because when at home we attack. our record in the CL away from home is shocking mainly as we go there to keep it tight
why
our record is so bad would it not be better to try and actually win the game. we certainly cudnae get much worse!!!!
ATTACK
ATTACK
ATTACK ATTACK ATTACK
remember also that we shud have scored at least 2 last night with the chances of JVOH and McDonald.
Just shows that if u have a quality poacher u have a chance against anyone
I must add that our goals conceded away from home does not concern me, as its scoring goals that wins you games
as long as we score 1 more i dont care what the score is. we need to get back to that attiude. sure our defenders may not be the best, but our strikers certainly are not the best, hence another huge problem
our failure to recruit a poacher supreme was always going to haunt us
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Gameover after 10 minutes and visions of Artmedia as no.3 went in.
While the mistakes were disasterous, the quality of our full backs left us hopelessly exposed. Naylor's confidence has disintegrated and he was barely prepared to put his foot on the ball in the first half.
As Paul mentioned, once Paul Hartley changed position he was excellant - probably the best player last night.
Two quality full backs required. Anybody know what Paul Telfer's up to????
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Perhaps GS should take a leaf out of Big Jock's book, and arrange a closed-doors practice match against a team from the Portuguese top flight (in lieu of a training session) a couple of days before we face Benfica in Lisbon. At least our players will get a first hand taste of how the Portuguese play... skill levels, speed of movement and passing, etc., prior to doing it for real.
I too would prefer to finish 3rd and drop into the UEFA Cup (then have a wee run to the latter stages there...), rather than having the "glory" of losing in our first CL knock-out round.
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Paul
Why the sudden realisation that our defence is not good enough to keep anyone out.
Some of us on here have been saying that for the past 3 years.
The fact is and we have to accept this is that
A. Gordon cannot build a defence or is incapable of seeing it's shortcomings. Feel free to calculate how much he has spent on each area of the team Attack/Midfield/Defence and you wont have too far to go to see why the deficiences are where they are.
B. The Celtic board are happy for us just to get into the Champions League and the money it brings. They have no intention of truly competing properly in it. They are happy for us to take all the beatings which will be coming our way. I dont mind this all I expect is that they are honest with the fans and admit they have no aspirations at this level. Failing to invest proper money in the defence will cost us every time we play decent opposition.
I have now accepted that we will always have a poor defence whilst under the stewardship of Gordon Strachan when teams such as ICT can create the number of chances that they did tells you all you need to know.
I have now accepted all of the these facts and will have lowered my expectations to that of the Manager and the Board.
Failure to see that our defence has needed surgery for so long is gross incompetence in my book.
But never mind as Brian says the Money is in the bank(again & again) pity it's not on the field.
As Neg Anon says I'm sure the jam will come in January08...August08.....January09 you get the picture.
To have spent practically zero in the transfer market for the last two years with our current financial well being defies logic and belief.
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First job away from home is to earn the right to take part in the game. We have denied far better teams than Shaktar the right to do this at home and last night they did it to us.
Our away 'record' doesn't bother me as much as the manner in which these occur. All across Europe teams have shocking away records (Shaktar and Benfica included) but I bet they don't gift wrap the opening goal quite so nicely as we do.
I don't care if we lose in Lisbon and Milan as long as our opponents have earned those victories I will be satisfied. Too often we give teams, already gifted enough, a head start and that will always kill us.
Gloat away mineshafters, gloat away!
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Paul
I know this may sound tongue in cheek but I think I need to pass this on as the defence will never get fixed. Ask Brian to pass this on to Gordon
Two average/poor fullbacks that cannot defend properly and who almost never close their man down leads to crosses always coming into the box....
These crosses are then met by two average/poor centrebacks who are both dreadful in the air leads to you losing goals.
This is not rocket science it is fundamental in building a decent defence.
Solution - Buy two good full backs who will attempt to stop the crosses coming in or have a central defender (akin to Bobo) who will attack there crosses and the opposing strikers and clear the ball.
I suggest doing one or the other as I accept the money is not there to buy a whole new defence but at least invest in two good defenders now and two next year.
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The sad thing is the money was there to fix the fullback problems. Having it in January will probably be too late for the CL this season.
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Last night was another case of the same again.Where is the learning that is taking place, two terrible goals to lose and Big Artur saved us several times so he did his job.
Our fullbacks are caught out continually by the ball over the top as they are too small, also in possession they give it away cheaply.
Celtic could have scored 4 last night 2 good chances for Jan, Mick had a header from about 8 yards that hit the back of his head out of the box and Chris pulled out a decent save from their keeper.5 games to go dont panic but I would definately like evidence of the learning that is supposed to be taking place.
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No-one is gloating !! To suggest otherwise is, I hope, tongue in cheek. For goodness sake, Paul has put it up in flashing neon lights. We are one game from a whole year, 52 weeks, 365 days, of being unable to keep a clean sheet away from home. We're not playing CL football each of those weeks. We're playing Motherwell, ICT, etc etc. If this defence can't shut the door on SPL teams, then why oh why do we get ourselves in such a frenzy about the possibility of coming away with anything in the CL away games ? To criticise the coach, team, board for this failure in ALL away games is not mineshafting - its an expression of a genuine concern, one which presumably no-one suggests should be overlooked ?!
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Bhoy Molloy
See above - Celtic as a club have no aspirations in the cl other than getting there hence the reason why we entered it with a poor defence despite having the money to fix it.
Let me tell you something on Tuesday 28th August 2007 I was told in no uncertain terms that Celtic would not sign another player before the window closed regardless what happened reagrding CL qualification. I found this incredible but my source is normally impeccable thereafter I paid no futher interest in the transfer window which I am glad about as I would have wasted a couple od days hoping that we might show some ambition and sign some decent defenders.
Turns out my source was right.
Ho Hum
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Little piece from an excellent article in the Times:(http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/columnists/martin_samuel/article2485344.ece)
When United were last in Lisbon, their training ground was situated near to the site of Celtic’s victory. Now lightly used, mostly as a training ground by the Portugal national team, Ferguson led a small band of tourists from the club, including a camera crew from the company television network, MUTV, on a pilgrimage. According to his friend Pat Crerand, as the camera filmed Ferguson in the tunnel, he gave a running commentary, wondering aloud what his hero, Stein, would have been thinking as he walked out to face the Italians.
He marvelled at how a team from such a small country could grow to become the champions of Europe. “They should make a film about it,” Ferguson told Crerard. “They made one about that horse, Seabiscuit. They should make one about the Lisbon Lions, too.” Yet the video footage captured that day was not for public consumption. Crerand claims it was a memento for Ferguson alone; a private moment, for the gentle days when Lisbon is a city to be visited, not conquered.
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After watching us being rolled over by Donetsk last night, I think we can say that we're up against it in this group and that , on paper, we are the weakest of the four.
I saw the highlights here in France of Marseille v Betsiksas. If only we were with one of these two teams ! Marseille are v. poor in the league but still had enough to win 2-0. A certain ex-Ger called Rodriguez got the first. That tells you all you need to know.
Donetsk would have taken at least 2 off of either of these teams last night.
I think we can still qualify and as one poster said earlier, each game must be treated as a cup final. A point, minimum, against Milan would be a good start. We then have to get 3 in Lisbon....a big ask, but on I'm sure we'll relish with the tag of underdogs around our neck.
Hail Hail !
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Isn't it funny (peculiar) how a certain poster hasn't come on to gloat about about his/her/their favourite hate figure Neil Lennon and why we don't need a holding midfielder?
Last night's game is proof positive that a holding midfielder is absolutely essential, especially in the CL where almost EVERY team has one.
Make no mistake though, Shaktar are a GOOD side. Easily the best Pot 4 side in the tournament, and better than a good few Pot 3 teams. We will be lucky to qualify for the UEFA Cup this year, and an extra £5m spent in the summer wouldn't have made much of a difference to that.
So what do we do? Going 4-4-2 away from home against a team who have a very good player playing in 'the hole' ain't gonna work.
Going 4-1-3-2 helps counteract this, as it did last night, but against a team who have 2 very good full backs just switches that pressure on to our 2 full backs, especially from a team who are prepared to play with 2 at the back.
4-5-1 then, it would seem is the answer away from home. Actually, it's a no-brainer. Playing for 3 points ugly, and maybe getting more, is better than achieving no points gallantly. That's how it was achieved against France. No big secret!!!
As for Big Mick, OK he made one mistake last night, but hardly put a foot wrong for the rest of the game. If it was 4-5-1, it wouldn't have happened. As for the 2nd goal, that was an extremely well taken goal and as it proved, exceptionally difficult to defend against.
So, who would be the ONE up front??? McDonald, great industry, but too small. JVoH, good player, but not enough industry.
We DID have one such player, but he's now plying his trade in Derby.
Big, big mistake that one!
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Paul67,
Picking up from what i said last night. We have not fixed the problems that we know exist.
Lack of investment in the defence has cost us dear. The gamble has not paid off this time.
I don't know the ins and outs but if the plan was not to spend more than 2 million net this summer and deny the manger to fund these positions then i think we got what we deserved last night.
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Miller being in Donetsk last night would not have made one difference!!
Anybody thinks that Celtic taken 3 million for Kenny Miller is not a good deal need there head examined. Celtic done a great bit of business here.
My gripe would be that we never got a replacement in or spent the money soring up the defence.
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Good overall analysis miketw10,
Find myself agreeing with just about everything you say about away CL formations. If we played the San Siro system and had Neil Lennon, we would've been much tighter, but the flip side of depending on Lenny in the last year or so is that we got little innovation from the middle. We get that innovation now, even though it was non-apparent at the highest level last night, so we can't have it every way.
Where I disagree is with Miller v McDonald. I for one am delighted to have been proved wrong on my initial reaction to the McDonald signing. He has proved already to be a far better player than I thought - in particular his strength and ability to hold the ball up. He can be greedy and choose the wrong option for the team when he's near goal, but that's a common striker trait. All in all, he is a player who has added a lot to the team, and I think he is capable of playing lone striker role.
All in all, he is a better asset to the team than Miller imo.
Remember the Miller experiment in Lisbon failed miserably.
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I'm still waiting for someone to post some evidence that the Board held money back from WGS.
If Kenny Miller had done what Bobo did and refused to move our net spend would have been £5m. Would that have been better?
Or if Tommy G had refused to move our net spend would still have been £2m but we would have been £2m more in wages. This demonstrates the absurdity of talking about net spend on its own.
If Ronaldinho was on a Bosman and we paid him £100k per week our net spend would be nil. That's not going to happen of course but taking the theory to extremes highlights the flaw.
At the end of the day I am presenting information here that is in the public domain, and to add to this WGS said (so I am inclined to take his word on it) that he and the scouting staff simply could not source full back cover of an acceptable quality at an acceptable price and when we start paying over the odds for players then, and only then, can we start criticising the stewardship of the club.
In Paul's Brian Quinn interview the most powerful bit of information that screams out at me is the commitment to a rolling review (5 years in Celtic's case) and the steadfastness to stick with a measured business plan. Too many in football react and change at each cut and turn. Just read CQN. Management and decision making based only or primarily on the short term is a hideous gamble. The Celtic Board have absolutely no right whatsoever to gamble with my Club. And they don't. This is, in my opinion, without a shadow of a doubt their greatest strength, their resilience in the face of insatiable passion for football success at all costs.
What I don't see on our board is ego. I don't see the need to be liked. I don't see self promotion and I don't see anyone acting in any way that is not for the good of the Club.
Brian Quinn receives £30,000 per year and Peter Lawwell's remuneration is geared massively to football, not financial, success. All of the Board members appear to me to be Celtic supporters and the target for the Club is football success, pure and simple. I mean really, what else is it we actually want from them? To admit it's all a ruse? To admit they just haven't got what it takes?
I imagine we’d all have very similar views if we were sitting having a beer talking Celtic. Frustrations at not getting a player for a certain position, maybe annoyance at some of the customer services. But in the grand scheme of things what is the issue here?
For me it's simple. Move on from the transfer window frustration because although it's real, that's all it is - frustration. There is no undercurrent of mismanagement and no motive for skulduggery.
Despite what we read regularly this is a terrific time in our history, things that we control are actually going pretty great. I'm not promoting complicity for the sake of it, just rationalise the argument, I'm genuinely interested.
Happy clapping is the new rock 'n' roll!
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Thats exactly right WGS, selling Kenny Miller and banking the money rather than re-investing it in the playing squad was not a 'great bit of business', more akin to profiteering, pretty sure thats the majority view on here.
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In The Dark,
was that "Walter" who told you that?
Still think your 1000 or 5000 pound bet or whatever it was,was a good idea?
Did you put another grand on what you were told on August 28th?
Italiabhoy,
Warsaw Pact?
I know we aren't totally inexperienced in the Champion's league.
Some of the players have actually played in it twice for us!!!!!
But really,if our team had played and been beaten in the Warsaw Pact,they would all be at least 40.
Maybe next year we will be able to go to the Byzantine empire and get beat there as well
Settle down.
Bad game for us poor performance,and time to look forward.
These results happen in Europe(as we well know),always have,and they always will.
Bloody disappointing,but not that surprising.
We know this will be hard,and we know it will only get harder as the crunch comes.
Let's see how everybody travels,before we start lynching people.
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3 million for our top scorer might have been a good deal but with no replacement what happens if McDonald gets injured/suspended ?
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I think 1 up is an option if you have wide players with pace, intelligence and ability to both support the attack and defend. There are also very few players who can do the 1 up role well. Kenny Miller is not one of them, (whilst the rest of your analysis is good Mike) he is an option if your game plan happens to include the line 'I hope we can win this game through some absolute miracle but in reality I don't really believe it'.
That's the difference between say, Scotland at home to France (which was a miracle) and Scotland away to France (which was thoroughly deserved).
I want us to play 2 up in every away game but it's the midfield which requires the work. It may even be a case for Sno in the sitting role and Hartley, Brown and Donati ahead of them. This would require the talented Sno to turn up and not the frustrating version because there are two!!!
I'm just glad nobody has used the Bobo Balde name in vain yet!!!!
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Paul67
I am not McManus´ biggest fan but I feel I have to defend him re the first goal.
Brown blasted the ball at McManus from 5 yards away and unless McManus had the developed the first touch and the composure of Henke overnight the only place the ball was going to hit was his shin and thats what ended up happening.
The Celtic midfield allowed the Shaktar players and especially their wing-backs (Srna was terrific) 40 yards of free space to run into and backed up the defence so far that McManus and Caldwell had to sit on the 18 yard line. For a team as competent on the ball as Shaktar it was candy from a baby stuff.
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As it happens, and all things considered, knowing what we know now, etc... it's a good thing that KM DID go when he did.
Keeping an unhappy player is bad business.
Having KM in the team last night would NOT have made a difference, I agree, but if it was 4-5-1, then it most definitely WOULD have.
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itz said...
Thats exactly right WGS, selling Kenny Miller and banking the money rather than re-investing it in the playing squad was not a 'great bit of business', more akin to profiteering, pretty sure thats the majority view on here.
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Nah m8, its only mineshafters who would make that assumption.
Happy clappers who are the majority on here will see it as brilliant business acumen.
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Paul67,
Not quite an entire year, 1-0 win away to Falkirk on 1.10.06 (Aiden) nit pickin I know :-)
Now, if we don't keep a clean sheet away to Gretna on 7th October...
Now last night, normally before an away CL game the tension mounts, guts ache hours before kick off. Last night, nothing, knew the script, knew they were far too good.
Personally, for me, just reaching the CL is significant as the money will allow us to continue winning the league year in year out and, who knows, one year we might pick up another point on the road!
Some people may see this as lacking ambition. I see it as the real world were we compete at our level until some sugar daddy/mummy buys the club and, hands up, how many of us want that?
As someone who very rarely goes to away European games, my money goes on supporting Celtic domestically home and away. This is were the CL money helps us to continue winning. Call it bread and butter, SPHell etc. but this is also were the vast majority of us spend our time and money. So, if qualifying for the CL every season means having to endure results like last night then so be it. I’ll take 16 in a row over the last 16 anytime.
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Miketw10 @14.37
Ah'll get right tae it,pal....
Kojo is still in Don'ask...
Dinna worry when he gets back...
He'll tak yer silly remarks tae task!
In da meantime, get dis and get dis good.....
Lennon played fur Many Many Years in past Cl Games.
An' we Still LOAST away FRAE HAME!
We lose because it's due tae NOIVES!
All da HOLDING PLAYERS IN DA WOILD, couldna hiv stoaped,
Big MICK'S BLOOMER dat He SOIVED!
Da trouble wi da Celts is Glaring!
IT IS BECAUSE OUR DEFENSE IS A BUNCH O' HAND-BAGGED SISSIES!
AND IT IS OBVIOUS, IT IS GLARING!
So dinna gie us dat Crapola...
Lennon, fur da last Two Years...
HE STUNK LIKE GORGONZOLA!
Kenny Miller? MAKE A DIFFERENCE? SO YE STATE...
Ah' no even answer dat...Because you in yer Heart knows...
Dat Miller is whit da Soccer Cognoscenti term...
Ah Flatterer to Deceiver,is faur frum Great... Plus, as everyboady knows ....EXCEPT YOU!!
IS THIRD-RATE!
CELTIC NEED... TWO NEW, "TAKE NO PRISONER".. FULL- BACKS...
SIX FEET TALL!....
PLUS, a COMMANDIN' CENTER HALF...
Who'll TOWER ABUNE DEM ALL!
Another Lennonesque HOLDIN' PLAYER?
DON'T MAK ME LAFFFFFF!
collie.
Tails Awaggin', Awaggin'
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CaltonTongues
Are you saying Celtic should plan for winning the most important prize every season and not gamble huge amounts of money that could threaten the future of the club on a trophy that is geared towards clubs from bigger countries anyway?
Please, put away the reality pills and smoke some of this mate......
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itz said...
Thats exactly right WGS, selling Kenny Miller and banking the money rather than re-investing it in the playing squad was not a 'great bit of business', more akin to profiteering, pretty sure thats the majority view on here.
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Nah m8, its only mineshafters who would make that assumption.
Happy clappers who are the majority on here will see it as brilliant business acumen.
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Ah no,
Infested by the Walter Mitty CSC, coming out with the seedy storylines, substantiated by their "impeccable source" telling us of boardroom plots to bring down.....well I suppose the board...ripping off their face masks like the janitor in scooby doo to reveal the face of Sir Minty...
Gis peace...
Lennon is now a saint who operated in a successful away winning CL side and Kenny Miller is the greatest Celtic "one man up front only" striker of recent times...
Cue the reformation of Bobo Balde as a man who didn't make gaffs in Europe and Naka as a poor man's Steve Guppy.
We've definitely got areas in the team to address and it's frustrating we didn't. The manager made a judgement call on what he had at the back and market forces were crazy this summer where the full backs we were after (N'Daw) was being quoted in the 5 million bracket...
I get the feeling some of you fellas genuinely felt happy at the defeat last night so you could wake up today and feed us with your energy-sapping nonsense, complete with your smug overtones......
Wavy
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Hey CaltonTongues,
I understand where you're coming from, but .....
Being based in France, I like to go to the away CL games as they are usually easier for me to get to than Celtic Park every other week !
Agree that the SPL is bread and butter and that's what we should be aiming to win every year.
For me the CL is a bonus. The cherry on the cake. I meet old friends, and make new ones. Visit some interesting cities and get to follow the Bhoys.
I guess we all know in our heart of hearts that we won't win the Big One. It's skewed towards the big 5 countries.
But maybe one day I'll be standing there on some foreign terracing and see us get 3 points. Then maybe soon after, next away game, another 3pts. Then we're on our way to the semis...then who knows.
The CL is the dream. The SPL helps create that dream. You don't get the 2nd without the 1st :)
I remember driving for 14hrs to Vigo withsome mates in the hope we could make it into Europe after Christmas for the first time in 20 odd years. A dream. Yet we did it.
Maybe before I pop my clogs we'll do the Big One again !?!?!?
Maybe our major shareholder will wake up one day and think "I can't take the billions with me. And I don't want to leave it to the govt. So, how can I make myself and 1M others happy ?? " . . . . .
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Lastnight revealed the point where the interests of good business sense and footballing desire fracture and separate - the club as a business entity has no true desire beyond qualification for the group stages. Accordingly, we will never spend more than is necessary to win the SPL.
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Kano
Ye hiv da right slant fur us tae tak...
So we loast da Foist Game?
But we kin still come BACK!
We did it last time... Ah seem tae remember!
Da League hiz jist STARTED...it's jist SEPTEMBER...
All we need is 12(?) Points.. by DECEMBER!
Ah'll nevah gie up!
Ah'm jist no da Type!
Ah canny help it!
Ah Nevah did Shrink, frae a FIGHT!
It's aye...
GET BACK IN DER....and ASSERT YER RIGHT!
It's noo dat we Separate, da MEN FRAE DA BHOYS!
Yer awe GROWN -UP NOO!
Ye MUST FIGHT BACK...
AN' PIT AWAY YER TOYS!
Panic is a Cancer...
Dat is da Badge Dat Signifies...
A CHANCER!
Who said dat?....
Ah jist did~
collie.
Tail's Awaggin', Awaggin'
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I've never met a Celtic supporter who was happy to see us getting beat. A rare breed if indeed such a person exsists. But according to some on here they are everywhere! What a load of tosh. Please find another way to substantiate your point (caller).
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Well, well Collie...
Touch a nerve did I? Cap fit did it?
If all the holding players in the world wouldn't have stopped that goal, how come when Paul Hartley was moved to the 'holding midfielder' position, the defence was improved to such an extent that Shaktar didn't score any more goals?
My take on the goal is that Scott Brown put too much weight on the back pass which McManus failed to control properly. On another day, another decision, he would have hoofed it into Row Z, as others have suggested.
David Platt called it right last night when he suggested that early on in a tie like that, a defender should just get rid of it and let the team bed in for the first 20 mins and get a feel for the game.
Oh and as for KM... I'm the only person who reckons he's any good, am I???? Tell that to Gordon Strachan, Alex McLeish, Walter Smith, Billy Davies and Glen Hoddle. I'm sure they'll disagree with you.
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Blantyre kev – Your absolutely right to point out that the club is being run astutely – that’s totally valid.
However on the football field - towards the tail end of last season it was becoming abundantly clear that we had a weakness in the full back areas & we critically required an old head at centre back to partner either McManus or O’Dea
I fully endorse the clubs strategy in paying what we can afford for players & only signing players who can make a difference. We are slowly accumulating a good footballing team & there have been glimpses so far of exciting football. The frustration for me & many others is that had we addressed these key defensive positions in the summer, we would be very close to having a special team on the park & be able to face Champions League opposition without any anxieties .
Mark Wilson is a young guy learning the game, but you don’t have to be Felipe Scholari to see that his progress is slow & he ain’t a right back. No harm to him & in the SPL he has shown on occasion that he is quite resilient, but away to Man Utd, Copenhagen & Shaktar he has lacked physical presence or shown adequate defensive positioning. On the other flank Lee Naylor has been a very reliable player for us, but he looks out of sorts this season & without serious competition for the left back slot this situation won’t improve. Naylor as far as I’m concerned should be a squad player, however it looks like we’re going down the same route as we did with Stanislav Varga. He too was a decent squad player & should’ve only been used short term. As things transpired we kept Varga beyond his sell by date & this ended in tears & a shaky defence. Surely to god there are two full backs out there who are affordable, who are athletic, can hold a position & can use the ball. Right Where’s my Mould ins….
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You are very quick to point the finger at McManus Paul and yes he did make a mess of a bad pass from Brown (I think).
But yet you can't understand why Hartley played where he did. He played there because he was told to.
Now I am not anti WGS but he must hold his hand up to that one. And no this is not 20:20 hindsight, I believe a lot of people expected Hartley to start in the position he ended up playing (very well) in.
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BlantyreKev,
Just back from a smoke break, think I'll stick to the Mayfair.
Antibes,
I, like everyone else, hope yer dream comes true. Also, I'll give you yer 14 hours to Vigo and raise you 23 hours to Bordeaux on ma Birthday wae a toilet that was flooded before Bothwell Services.
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BhoY Molloy and Itz - Any inside information on which fullbacks were offered to us who would have improved the side? Also how much were they offered to us for?
I am all for spending if its on quality but I am not for spending the £3m Kenny Miller money just for the sake of spending!
In saying that though , I know that quality left backs are thin on the ground but surely we can get a European class right back for a couple of million? Can We ?(again I dont know who was available and at what price)
We didnt spend on the defence in the window and I think it will cost us dear. But I do not know why we didn't spend.
Is it that :
1. Manager is happy with the defence?
2.Players we want arent interested in coming to SPL
3.The players are outwith our price range.
4.We are genuinly stingy and wont buy players.
5.The management wouldnt know a good defender from a bad one?
Anyone have the definitive answer or are we all making it up as we go along?
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malceye
I agree with you up to a point. The short term goals of this board/management and team is to win the SPL and qualify for the Champs League every year whilst substantially reducing our level of debt.
If we look at the last 3 years, we have achieved this apart from Strachan's year 1.
The problem with this scenario is that as fans we will get bored with winning the SPL and only qualifying for the Champs league every year. On the other hand, anything less would be unacceptable.
What I am confident of is that the other part of the board and Strachan's lonmger term masterplan. That is to build :
1) A younger fitter faster entertaining team.
2) A group of players who will get better as they get older and gain more experience.
3) These players can be sold on for huge profits at a later date if and when required. We will hopefully hold onto the better players but everyone has their price.
4) The new academy at lennoxtown to grow our own superstars of the future and also to improve the facilities and add another attraction to entice players to our great club.
Don't get me wrong, I get as upset, frustrated, angry and disappointed as everyone else when I watch performances like last night. But I know that our club is in good hands and I an VERY hopeful for the future.
Hail Hail
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Miketw10
So dat is your solution ?
A Magical, Covered in Fairy Dust...
HOLDIN' PLAYER?
We wid hiv mair success,if we employed the services o' a SOOTH-SAYER!
Ah'm sorry ah canny deal wi' yer Logic any mair!
Ah gie up!
Ah throw ma hauns up in da Air!
So ah'll leave ye tae wallow in yer dreams...
As ye weave yer Magical And Romantic Schemes......
About Lennon returnin in awe his Glory..... An'
KENNY MILLER... Playing...
LIKE JIMMY MCGRORY! scoring Winning goal... an' Holdin' Players being awe da rage...
Fugettaboot it!
I think ah'll close dis Page!
colllie
Tail's Awaggin', Awaggin'
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Nae Bread,
I guess most of us are making it up, or having an opinion as it's otherwise known. There may be some who have inside info, but not many.
It's clear that we were looking for full backs over the summer. The easy answer would have been to have re-signed Doubme right away, but it looks like we were considering other options first.
The difficulty we have is being a big fish in a very small and ordinary pond. We will never attract the top players,and even the second teir have offers from mid table English, Spanish etc clubs to consider.
What's the answer? Wish I knew then I could tell the club. I guess we need to keep trying to find someone good enough to improve our side but not good enough that he gets more lucrative offers.
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I've never met a Celtic supporter who was happy to see us getting beat. A rare breed if indeed such a person exsists. But according to some on here they are everywhere! What a load of tosh. Please find another way to substantiate your point (caller).
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Itz - This particular breed of celtic fan requires the defeat of celtic to help provide a platform to air their conspiracy theories, their superior "I told ye sos" and their own particular brand of "we're all doomed" with a sort of smugness that illustrates a certain glee in showing how they got it right all along.
This particular breed of fan never feels the need for balance in their views, is markedly absent in comment at celtic victories nor a recognises the human frailty which exists in players on the pitch sometimes or within executives who must make decisions based on the long term interests of the club, some of which may be wrong at times and sometimes may be unpopular. This breed will never have to embrace that responsibility and will always be devoid of the complexities of running the shop.
This breed of fan enjoys the feeling of being a bit of a maverick, who rejects all those in authority (in the shape of the celtic board) and sees the world in simple good guys (those of a like mind who enjoy begrudgery) against the baddies (the board).
This particular breed is the sorta guy at work who saps your energy all day with their constant moaning, their superior airs and graces, their need just to have a good destructive whinge, even if the subject matter happens to be the thing they claim to love...
That my friend is the world of the mineshafter :)
Big Wavy
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Message for London Tims
A friend is looking for a Celtic friendly pub close to St James Park area in London to watch our next home game Dundee Utd 29th Sept.
Celtic Bars lists about 40 London pubs but, as I have found to my cost in the past, there is a big difference between a bar which shows a Celtic match and a Celtic Bar.
Any advice will be gratefully received.
Polish satellite links , Japanese feeds, anything will do so long as he can abuse the referee loudly without being shown the door.
The Onlooker
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At a guess, I would imagine Collie's post of 16:06 translates thus:
"I don't have an intelligent answer to your points!"
For a start, there is nowhere in any of my posts that advocates either magic or fairy dust. (We all know where that belongs, don't we?), and there's nowhere in any of my posts which advocate bringing any of the 2 players in question back.
The nearest I got to that was suggesting that it was a mistake to let KM go.
My logic only extends as far as the evidence put in front of me. And that was that we played better last night when we employed a holding midfielder.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't some of our greatest performances of recent times when we had not one, but 2 holding midfielders??? Lennon and Lambert?
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Nae Bread Nae Brains
No inside info mate, I just think that the decision to sell Kenny with the transfer window about to shut was as clear an indicator as you will get in regard of what our real priorities are. Remember at that point we had already qualified for the CL proper and most other CL teams were looking to strengthen their squads rather than weaken them.
Its disappointing but all water under the bridge now, here's hoping that DR or CK get the playing opportunities that’s Kenny would have got and make the best of them.
Big Wavy - credit where credit is due - an excellent reply!
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KANO,i knew i was waiting for inthedark for some reason,as you say his impeccable sources told him to bet the huns for the league and he was stupid enough to listen,maybe his sources are good friends of mr coral and mr ladbrokes,my only surprise is that it took him so long to come on to criticize
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Onlooker,
Get yourself up to the Kingdom in Kilburn. Great bunch of fellas (in the main) at the spiritof67 csc.
Wavy
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Does Spirit of 67 show home games ?
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GordonJ. @16.09
Well done,my man... ye ticked all da Boxes.
Fur ah kin tell you, dat Pierre had nae success, in Capturin' DEFENSIVE PLAYERS....
Fur he wiz Financially Stymied, although he woiked off his SOXES!
Yer right...
FIVE MILLION POUNDS, wis da Price dat wiz Needed...
Tae Bring in Defensive Players,
Da TYPE... who in shoring up our weakness,dey would hiv SUCCEEDED!
Noo, we need mair dan WAN(!!!) DEFENSIVE BACK....
So a wee bit Arithmatic wull tellya..
Dat tae tak care o' oor wants....
WULL SET US, At Least.... 10 MILLION BACK!
A man wit half a Brain... an'Thoid Grade Education....
Kin noo see WHY ..... In BRINGIN' IN PLAYERS......
WE DID EXPERIENCE....
A WEE BIT, HESITATION!
Simply put....
I AM SORRY TAE TELL YE......
WE NEEDED MAIR DOUGH!!!!!!!!!
Hence... JAN. is da Date!
It in No Too Late...
Fur Over da SUMMER....
MAIR DOUGH ..WE DID..
ACCUMULATE!!!!!!!!!!!
Jan. wull tell, if whit ah am sayin'
it TRUE or NO!
BUT AH SAY DAT IN JAN.....
WE WULL HIV DA DOUGH!
MEANTIME...
We wull jist hiv tae bide... an' go wit' da tide!
collie.
Tail's Awaggin', Awaggin.
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Danny,
They do indeed....£2.50 entry and a raffle included........
Itz - Cheers fella.
Big Wavy
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Full back suggestions?
We could have got Melchiot ahead of Wigan. He was the guy who forced Doumbe to leave Rennes. Tall strong right back with plenty of experience.
And for anybody watching der hun tonight then check out Ludovic Magnin 6ft 1" LB for Stuttgart.
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miketw10,how you can implicate scott brown in losing the first goal is beyond me,the blame lies solely with stephen mcmanus
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Funnily enough we now have Collie telling us to wait till January next it will be August then January etc etc and no doubt Paul will echo the same sentiments.
Our transfer spend going forward will I estimate hover around the 2/3 million mark each season regardless of how much transfer money we take in from sales.
The proof is in the pudding.
If it don't make sense it don't make sense.
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Onlooker, scroll back to the previous thread to see the comprehensive answer Big Wavy gave me yesterday.
I went up to the Cock Tavern in Euston last night which was fine. Been there before. Living near St.James Park as I do, it wasn't as close as the Marquis of Granby off Covent Gdn but any time I've been to that one in the past I've found it very crowded.
I haven't been to the Kingdom in Kilburn for a game yet but if your friend's nearer the west side of the park, a 16 going up Park Lane goes almost to the door.
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I wasn’t all that surprised at losing last night. When you consider how we should have lost goals in the SPL but didn’t because of
1. Incompetence of the opposition
2. AB
3. Luck,
it stands to reason that a good team will actually score.
Many of us must feel like voices in the wilderness. How often have I written and how often have I read we need a full-back?
We got away with a 2 – 0 last night, an improvement on the usual 3 – 0, and we’re still in it thanks to AC Milan gubbing Benfica, so things are really going much as expected. A win would have been too good to be true IMO. I just hope when we do get our defence sorted out AB is still with us, and that Naka’s not past it.
HHB
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Bhoy Molloy,
Could we have matched premiership wages ? Should we have for the sake of our wage structure ?
Would Magnin have left the superior bundesliga (plus Champions league footie) for the inferior SPL (with no guarantee of CL football until 3 days before the end of the window)..
Not meaning to sound like a smart**se but just highlighting some of the issues the club faces in reality when we spot the list of possibles. It's still a long way from a deal clincher and this summer I really felt that the Sky money in England left us completely at sea with potentials, throwing the market to crazy heights.
Big wavy
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Big disappointment Ghuys....but SD are a good side and too many fans underestimated them.
Nevertheless we did not compete like we should have. The actual goals were easily preventable. I honestly think they went down a gear when they got to 2-0.
There is no doubt we all knew where WE thought the team needed strengthened but we are where we are.
BTW it is not that MW and LN are not tall enough it is just they are not quite at this level of quality (maybe yet for MW, probably never for LN). Bixente Lizarazu and Roberto carlos are no giants but are quality full backs.
Big Mick made two mistakes for the first goal...his touch was criminal but he followed that up by trying to undo his mistake by charging after the ball and commiting himself to a despairing challenge which left brandao with a gift. One of my critiques of the Big guy is that his decision-making is lacking at times and this was one of them.
Nonetheless whilst defeat hurts we are not mortally wounded. A great atmosphere at CP for our home games could be all the difference between having European football after Xmas or just hoping we can h |
