 Thursday, September 20, 2007
Nakamura ineffective when Celtic do not play to him, BDO Consulting plump new depths
In the autumn of 2005 I remember writing that if Shunsuke Nakamura is played in the same midfield as Neil Lennon and Alan Thompson he would be as well sitting in the stand beside me. When Thompson was dropped (or injured) and replaced by Maloney, things changed. Nakamura and Celtic sparked into life; passing was crisp and movement was gyroscopic. Roll on two years and although many players have changed the basic tenant of how to get the best from Nakamura has not. You either play at his level, or he will appear to be a passenger. McGeady, Donati and Nakamura together are able to control and influence games. They move constantly and commit to forward runs, bringing out the best in each other. Away from home in Europe this is seldom possible and should perhaps not be considered desirable. If we cannot justifiably believe that we can control a game, a robust defence should be the order of the day, and this is not the strength which has made Shunsuke Nakamura a Celtic hero. Nakamura has been left out of important games in the past, no doubt for similar reasons, and despite being the most precious talent at the club, should not have played on Tuesday night. A robust midfield with Brown being assisted by Jarosik, Sno or both, might have allowed Celtic to easy into the game and break Shakhtar’s momentum, leaving Shunsuke to play the role of late and effective substitute. I see BDO Consulting have ranked Rangers 15th most valuable football club in the world, three ahead of Celtic, which tells you all you need to know about what passes for business consulting these days. Is there a school teacher out there who can ask, "Show me your workings"?
The banking and professional adviser industries are beginning to make football economics look well ordered.
213 Comments:
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third
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no, 1st
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it's cause I'm an hour ahead!!
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I posted this at the ned of the last thread and then found out a new one was up and running
Miketw10 :- I wouldn't disagree with you though I think if you had drawn any other pot four team the two groups would be much the same. Drawing Shaktar was a bit like drawing Moscow they were teams in false positions and a lot stronger than their seeding would suggest.
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From the previous article:
Thejd 1andonly, totally agree. A point against Milan would be a good result.
Stebhoy, I regard myself as optimistic, but like you also claim to be objective. I was the one to quantify our away defensive ‘record’, but this does not mean we are making no progress, or the team is not more attractive to watch, or that we will not win the league.
The outcome of each I am sure will be positive.
For good measure, I think we will beat Shakhtar at CP and maybe take a point in Lisbon this time around.
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Hi paul,
Sorry to bother you but I was wondering if you have a link to the BDO report?
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Paul, I definitely think a case should be made for 'horses for courses'
We have a big enough squad, and varied talents within it, so should be able to chop and change to whatever situation may present itself.
This might of course fly in the face of Gordon's 'whoever is playing best, keeps the jersey' ethos. It's a fine balancing act!
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Hi Paul,
Any thoughts on why the team turned up on the pitch looking so frightened ? I think this lack of confidence surprised me more than the ability of the Ukranians. We looked petrified from the off.
Wavy
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"Sorry to bother you" ?????
What the.......!
I think you've read the schoolteacher part too literally Ed!!!
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Of the 16 CL ties this week, only 2 were away wins. Even Inter couldn't manage it.
It is going to be very difficult to pick up 3 points on the road in this CL, and I am not just talking about Celtic.
Hail Hail
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Edward...
Yes, that's exactly what I was getting at!
It gets quite frustrating every single season we have to do it the hard way, and very rarely get any breaks.
But no, what happens at the beginning of this season?
Don't give us Spartak Moscow! Don't give us Spartak Moscow!
What happens? We get Spartak flipping Moscow!!
What happens when we manage to scale that particular mountain? We draw the current holders, a team we struggled against last year and as you say, a team who are much better than their Pot 4 status!!
Am I turning into a mineshafter?
Not on your nelly!
We don't care if we win, lose or draw...
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miketw10, "This might of course fly in the face of Gordon's 'whoever is playing best, keeps the jersey' ethos. It's a fine balancing act!"
Does such an ethos exist? Surely then he wouldn't have dropped McGeady, who was praised by the manager as well as getting Man of the Match on Saturday?
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The little of ESno I've seennthis season suggests he's barely able to keep up with the SPL,never mind the real football.And playing JJ,with his CL experience and'local knowledge'would have been an idea but it seems I'm more likely to get a game than JJ these days;making that tactical innovation a non-starter.
What mtw10 calls El Gordo's ethos might be construed by some as a lack of tactical awareness/flexibility/mule-like stubbornness.
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Hmm, true!
But then again, Paul Hartley had a blinder against France.
I think you must agree though, that he does tend to stick with whoever's playing best and turning it on in training. That's what the concensus of opinion is anyway!!!
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I don't want to stray too much onto Celtic1sts area of expertise but today is the anniversary of the Great Schism of 1378 in the Church,when you had a Pope in Avignon[mineshafter]and another in Rome[happyclapper]
As far as I can see Carlisle did not have it's own Pope,but Scotland,Naples,Savoy,Burgundy,Cyprus,Aragon,Castile,Leon and France signed up for Avignon;but Denmark,Norway,England,Sweden,Flanders,Ireland,northern Italy,Hungary,the Holy Roman Empire,Poland and Sweden signed up for Rome.
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DBBIA
...And construed by others as sending a message out to those without the jerseys "If you don't try harder, you ain't getting a game!"
Like I said... A fine balancing act!
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BlantyreKev :- On re-reading it it does sound a bit stilted and formal but I'm sure Paul wont mind :-)
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Paul67,
I seen your reply on the last thread saying something about the Foreign Office,
was that you dropping a hint about our next chairman???? :-)
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A gem from Youtube, dont know if it has already been posted?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mRRe27_kjvU
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DBB
Today is also Henrik Larsson's 36th birthday.
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Prophetofdoom
deepest sympathies on the death of your friend .In mourning I hope you can draw strength from his sense of fun..i`m sure it is what Graham would wish.
Ewdward
Congratulations on the demomstration of how to tiptoe through a minefield.As for last night you are forgiven(provided you have true contrition ,a pupose of amendent and a desire not to reoffend).
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DruidDude :- Damn, I'm afraid the conditions at the end ruin it as I can't meet three of them, especially the last :-)
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Paul67
Maybe it was just that Naka was well below his best on Tuesday. Not many of us would have suggested dropping him prior to the game.
In Moscow he was good, kept the ball well and took some pressure of our defence. On Tuesday night though he was worse than a man short. Passes went astay and put pressure back on the defence to readily.
Individual players nee to look at themselves and be honest and admit that they didn't produce. Naka and ScottBrown I feel have the most to feel disappointed about themselves.
In hindsight I would have played Aiden on the right and kept Naka on the bench. JJ would have been too big a gamble, with exactly no first team match appearances so far.
But as I said we are hurting but are not mortally wounded.
The home support is going to have to be at its most effective.
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Paul Shun
I have to disagree
the team should be built around Naka
If we have hopes of actually winning away from home in the CL
we need Naka in the side
granted he can go missing but 9 times out out 10, he will produce something magic, which makes him the type of player we need and also need to keep on
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Is it safe tae come oot yit ?
Easter Road is not my preferred venue after such a defeat.
See Arsenal got the OG we were looking for. The Gunners remain unbeaten this season.
Two pennos in two games for Darnel The Magnifico.
WatchinGemmell
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My home PC is Lee Naylored by the way. I think I'll need to perform some sort of cyber-exorcism this evening.
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Sellik First -
cat got yir eloquent tongue ?
WishymoGgy
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Back tae
WorkGemmell
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WG
an ex workmate SC Stevie Clarke told me your the man to get me a Job up there in Scotland.
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Many happy returns,Henrik.
True heroism is remarkably sober, very undramatic. It is not the urge to surpass all others at whatever cost, but the urge to serve others, at whatever cost.
Arthur Ashe
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Spot on Paul67. It's not a slight on Naka, but he just isnt a ball-winning midfielder. In his time in the SPL he has learned to track back and stick a foot in, so he's no luxury player. The problem on Tuesday there was that he couldnt do the things that he usually does so well (his passes were woeful and it looked as if he couldnt trap a pound of steak-mince.) When *Naka's* first tough is off then it's "game's a bogey!"
Hartley might have found his niche as the sitting midfielder in Europe. Having two box-to-box midfielders like Brown and Donati should really solve our dilema (ie players who can spend large parts of the game covering the back four and then making runs/acting as the out-ball on the break.)
I dont know who we'd play as the 4th midfielder. Sno doesnt look like he's developing as we might have hoped (he's all elbows and no pace.) Jarosik just isnt up for life in the SPL but he is quite coy when it comes to the big CL stage (ie he knows how to play the continental way-- winning free-kicks etc.) What about young Teddy Bjarnson (sp?)? He looked like a dynamo against Hibs and in pre-season. It may be asking too much of him.
Anyway, that's how I'd play it if it were Championship Manager! :) Then I'd have players like Riordan (the cockiest guy in Paradise, from what I can see) and McGeady coming on in the last half an hour to run like frig and annoy defences.
The thing about this business of playing away in Europe is that losing isnt even as big a deal as British teams and press make out. Your not expected to win away at this level. Stuttgart, for example, wont be pressing the panic button after last night ("Scheiße, those plucky Glazgows, with their toothless Charlie Adams, are too much for uz! Vee should surrender now and let them into zee last sixteen.") If we win our home games and maybe, maybe, maybe nick a cheeky draw in Portugal or Italy then we're through!
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I have to admit that we on this blog are in danger of chasing people away by stereotyping to the extent that you are either a “Happy Clapper” or a “Mineshafter”. I am neither I am a Celtic Supporter who wants the best for my club and has ambitions to see us build on success and improve year on year.
All of the talk of teams 1,2,3 etc bores me to death.
What we need to do is upgrade, upgrade, upgrade.
Work out who is the weakest link and replace them with a better player /better unit.
Therefore criticising the board for spending net tuppence hapenny in the last two years is not “mineshafting” it is reality. I am struggling with comments like “don’t spend – it does not guarantee success” as I feel that this insults the ambitions of the Celtic support.
In the SPL a certain southside 11 won the league many years in a row by outspending us. Same in reverse for the MON era.
We talked long about Balance Sheets – well having cash in reserves simply generates interest at a low rate of return , however investing in upgrading you fixed assets tends to drive higher returns in the long term. The companies with the best infrastructure, asset base, working capital, and dynamic management teams tend to be the most successful.
The team needs to be upgraded in a number of key positions.
1. Fullback – we all know the issue.
2. Centre Half – we lack class.
3. Wide player with pace.
4. Quality centre forward.
Now do we expect 5 players to turn up with the wave of a magic wand and everything be just great – of course not.
But we expect our manager (of whom I am a fan) to learn from his experiences.
Learning number 1. Last year we could not get it done through the middle, if you wanted to stop Celtic scoring then mark Aiden and Naka and we would struggle. Since Christmas we scored very few goals and a sizeable portion of them came from set pieces.
Cue – Donati and Brown – Excellent Job Gordon.
Learning number 2. A back four of Wilson/Telfer, McManus, Caldwell and Naylor let in on average 3 goals per game in last year’s Champions League. Not good enough – Upgrade , Upgrade, Upgrade.
Cue – nothing.
In fact we were obsessed on this blog with Frei, Oppiah, Maloney etc , then throw Routledge into the mix and what do we have – the same defence minus the protection of Lenny. 2 goals and a perfectly good one chopped off against SD. (What a surprise) Learn from our experiences - NO.
We all know that getting players into the SPL is tough but that is what some people are paid a lot of money to do.
We tried is not an excuse – we all try the lottery every week but most of us are still poor.
I fear that January is not the time to do business so we need to put behind us the mistakes of not upgrading the defence and work with what we have at our disposal – including Jiri and Bobo as they are employees of the club.
The CL is a long stretch from the SPL – I happen to think that 3rd place will be an achievement as I have little confidence of blank scoresheets in Lisbon and Milan. Then have a UEFA cup run.
We need to set our expectations in line with the investments we have made. Reality is we have invested to retain the SPL, and not progress in the Champions League. Our closest SPL rivals needed to invest more heavily to challenge for the SPL and to be fair to them they did that – opinions on the quality of their investments is up for debate but what is not up for debate is that fact that they showed the ambition to make the investments.
Last night showed that retaining the SPL will not be automatic but it needs to be our priority as we are a long way short of competing in the champions league.
Seville67
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Hi Guys back from the Hols
the BBC are quoting that Mr Mourinho is looking for a 25 million pound payoff from chelsea
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paul- old son-
im afraid the naka problem runs deeper.
he couldnt even hit a corner into the box.
he is supposed to be our 'biggest talent' yet he was the only one to miss a penalty against moscow?
ive watched him give possesion away all season.
the kindest thing you could say is that he is cream-crackered.
but i think he peaked in the man u game and its been all downhill since.
sure he hit a great goal in a 5 goal romp but we are needing more on the bigger stage and he hasnt delivered it since the man u game.
thought he was awful in the san siro, awful at home against spartak and absolutely dreadful against shakthar.
we should be cashing in our chips on him.
but as one first team player said ''strachan has his little favourites'' and that is colouring his judgement on this one
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I'd always use Naka! Poor show on Tuesday but we need to find a way to ensure we create a platform for him.
Alongside Naka we have Massimo, Aiden, Paul, Evander & Skoosh and I’d defy anyone to say this is not a potentially exciting midfield of quality, flexibility and with options.
Perhaps we've got a bit ahead of ourselves though as it is now evident we do not know the most effective combinations to suit different circumstances.
I can see no reason why this problem won’t be worked out and when it is I think we will be enthralled!. A really strong midfield is the bedrock of everything else - even our defence!
Onwards & upwards…
PS - just read McGrory-for-arsenal (BTW, don't think title-tattle adds much to the debate) and disagree with almost everything except how poor Naka was on Tuesday. Funny how some see 'give away possession' while others see ball control, vision & skill. Hey Ho!
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"Therefore criticising the board for spending net tuppence hapenny in the last two years is not “mineshafting” it is reality."
Seville67 - But saying reality makes it sound like a simple black and white conundrum. Maybe we did try to buy, maybe we were outbid, maybe our target didn't want to come, maybe the pull of celtic means nothing to Joe Le Frenchman or Luigi L'italian.
The southsiders are driven by a last throw of the dice. They've won next to nothing with a support who needed to see activity from their board regardless. They have no sustainable business plan but a collection of bosmans and the odd over the hiller formed by Walter into a rugged band of fighters with a bit of street savvy yet little depth. They'll put up a challenge, and in fact I welcome it, but I fully expect us to pull away from them and the pack.
My expectations are tempered on the CL. I'm a romantic who'd love to see another Lisbon lions but our pot 4 team spent £40m, Man Yoo spent £40m and Liverpool spent £40m…etc etc……………...for the foreseeable future we can't compete with that. Seeing progress is hard when those factors come into play on the big stage. We've picked a model which plays within our means - WGS believes he can coach performance levels of previously SPL-standard players upwards, bring in the odd jewel like Boruc and Donati and try and mould a team within a sustainable spend. I'd love to see us upgrade at the back and up front - I think what emerged in the public domain in the summer suggested we are trying - Routledge as a winger would have given us a new dimension but didn't want to come, Lucarrelli (sp) said we spoke to him and N'Daw said a bid was made but the club refused it.
Keep the faith
Big Wavy "the realistic happy clapper who reserves the right to be a mineshafter from time to time if the mood finds him"
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I'm a clappyshafter
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I think that Tuesday showed just how important Naka is to our team.
Naka was poor - and we created nothing.
The best players produce when the chips are down. Like 82nd minute against Man U , like 93rd minute against Killie. Who was that again ?
I am happy that Scott McD is chipping in with assists because without him it would be all up to Naka. I am trying to think of an Aiden pass that led to a goal.
McGrory - couldn't disagree more.
Seville67
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Jose - no way
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Big Wavy,
It is black and white. the board spent net nothing.
We don't expect £40M spending levels - but as you said football is about ambition and emotion , and as I said asset management, investment and a dynamic management team.
I think that a balance would be great - but for the last 3 windows it has not been balanced. but heavily skewed towards Prudent Bank of England Fiscal Policy.
As I said - trying to sign doesn't do it for me.
Seville67
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I'd rather be a mineshafter than a darnelist
and
I'd rather be a happyclapper than a spud.
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To me its always the same, when we win then they are all excellent players, a great team, the treble's on etc, but when we get beat they are just a bunch of duds who are never gonna win a thing.
Its kinda always been like that, the only thing that’s changed is now we have an internet blog that we can come on and have a go at our least favourite player or some poor guy going thru a bad patch, like Naylor or Naka. Maybe even the manager who was getting pelters up until we started banging in the goals again.
Personally I cant wait until we take our bad mood out on Hibs, another 5 would be just great, wonder what the odds on that are at the bookies, must be worth a wee flutter though.
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Does anybody know where Noel90 is these days ?
Seville67
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Cheers Seville67,
OK maybe it's semantics. You see net spend as an indication of the ambition and I see incomings of £6m last time (well spent imho on upgrading the midfield and the forward line to a degree) with a welcome boost at various stages of income for our cast-offs (Miller, Beattie, Marshall, etc). I just think that disregarding our 'hard luck stories" doesn't paint the total picture in a complex transfer window. We looked to pay out more but couldn't (never heard the wouldn't from anyone) and in judgements I tend to agree somewhat that we are erring on the side of caution in this marketplace but not anywhere near the 'biscuit tin' banner some would paint.
As a matter of pure interest, if N'daw at £4.5m, Routledge at £4m and Frei at £5m (names irrelavant)in January were made available, what would you advocate doing at that time ?
Big Wavy
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Big Wavy,
if those 3 amigos are on Gordons priority list then by all means snap them up.
My point around January is that the top targets are rarely available at this time. so don't waste the budget on 5th / 6th choices.
I see January as a time to plug injury gaps - like Pressley last year.
However I'm sure that there might be a fullback upgrade available...please....
Seville67
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So.....with that spend of £13.5 million, we then 'sold' Jirosik, Balde, Riordan, Graveson, Pressley and Zurawski for £11.5m, would a net spend of £2million still be bad business sense ?
Wavy
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Chelsea were not net spenders this summer, neither were Arsenal.
Net spend is not a measure of ambition, I for one would gladly sell a 'Petrov' every year if it meant we brought in players of the quality of Brown and Donati (I'm skipping a year here but there's method!).
I'll happily complain about our fullbacks but this 'they outspent us' stuff is bizarre. It's weird how we only define ourselves by Rangers when it suits us. Seems it suits alot of people this week for sure!!!!
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big Wavy,
it's a bit of a hypothetical question.
I think if we sell all of these guys we go back to Owen Archdeacon on the bench so we would need to spend to keep the squad in shape.
I don't want to spend on volume I want specific areas of quality to be added.
That makes it harder to do but as I say - people are paid a lot to do it.
Seville67
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My opinion of reality... 80)
Extra money is pumped into the EPL via SKY. All EPL teams now have an unholy and undeserved amount of dosh at their disposal.
This results in an over-inflated market,(e.g. Darren Bent £16m, aye right!) and as the capitalists will tell you, this effect trickles down to the less well off. What they don't tell you is that the BAD effects trickle down too.
This means that the lower priced players in the EPL, or 'The Dross' for want of a better phrase, suddenly elevates in price to more than teams like Celtic can afford.
Subsequently, Celtic find that what they have already at the club, is way better than this over-inflated 'dross', so decide to keep their transfer kitty in the bank where it can stay until so much of it is accrued that what they eventually DO buy, will actually enhance the playing staff, and not just sit on the bench. But at least the 'spend at all cost' merchants are happy that their particular version of 'ambition' has been realised.
Personally, I see it as common sense. I don't see myself as a 'mineshafter' or indeed a 'happy-clapper'. I just see what I see and prefer to keep a positive outlook on things.
I can remember having 'mineshafter' tendencies when The Whites, Kelly's et al were in charge. I can even remember it when Fergus was in charge until I realised he was the one lone voice in the middle of all the madness. I can't think of one public disagreement he had with anyone where he hasn't subsequently been proved to be right! (Farry, Di Canio, Pierre, etc...)
But to get back to the main point... Celtic are currently the best run team in Scotland and improving year on year.
And that's reality!
P.S. Just to put it into perspective... Darren Bent wouldn't get into the Celtic team
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thismancraig,
your comparison with Chelsea is bizzare - over the last 4 windows they have spent more that anyone in Europe.
Arsenal have a very different philosophy – investing heavily in French and African youth schemes.
I am not comparing us to Rangers – I am merely stating that we are investing to win the SPL no more but our closest rivals have on this occasion invested more – like it or not it’s a fact.
The only reason that I posted this week is to raise the question why are we surprised that we get the same results as last year in the CL when we have the same defence and to further ask the question about learning from our experiences.
Seville67
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Seville67,
Appreciate it's hypothetical.
Actually I thought hard about that outgoing group in terms of their proximity to the first team and would say we'd very easily survive on that turnover - abundance of centre halves, a new first team full back, replacing Zurawski with Frei, having Skippy as our new impact forward from the bench and a wee nippy winger to challenge McGeady. Clear upgrading for squad and first team with only……………………………………...a NET spend of £2 million.
Ok bit disingenious of me and another poster has said it more eloquently, the net spend label is really not a measure we should be judging our ambition upon.
Big wavy
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Where was Naka during the MON barren away CL years ?
WGS seen us free scoring in the SPL saw the improvement in the away performances at Milan and Moscow and decided to name two up front. I dont think the Scotland win in France helped us either. Far too cocky.
Mircea Lucescu went two at the back (i.e man for man on our front pairing - who were back pocketed immediately which is where we should start looking, CL debut for skippy and JVOH has no mobility at this level. Killen looked more dangerous) leaving us well and truly exposed. I thought WGS took too long to move Hartley into the middle but either way you look at it WGS was out foxed tactically. No shame there, Shakhtar have a fine coach.
I have argued before that having both Aiden and Mc Geady in the team is a luxury. I still stand by that. Even at SPL level. It also means that the men who play directly behind them are asked to do far too much. That coupled with the fact that they are the only two who play in every single game even more than Boruc alludes to where I see the weakness in the current Celtic line up. Maybe this is why their crossing is not acceptable.
We need to sort this out. Why they are jaded ? If it means changing formation (i,e going three at the back then do it we need to do something). We have enough CB´s that´s for sure. It´s only September and the games are now coming in thick and fast. Naylor and Wilson dont play international football so imho should be even fresher. So it´s a conundrum that needs solved. Ignoring it and hoping it will go away is not the answer.
Hail Hail
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MrsWG has just left for NYC, what to do, what to do.......?
Eeny-meanie-minyshafter-judas
where else could I go that's as good as
The Teser ?
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WG
is the wife still going to the Newmains Youth Club?
tart
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above post should read having both Naka and Mc Geady ... poor Aiden
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arthur lee -
you calling her a 'hammer' ?
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Seville67
I spoke only of this summer, perhaps the time when they should have outspent everyone!
Arsenal sold their prize asset and replaced him across the board, when we sold Petrov there were complaints that we didn't spend the £8m + an additional £7m.
The general malaise this week (a week in which head to head we improved on Rangers) concerning Rangers spending and their European performance is strange. They haven't even crossed my mind since they lost to Hearts - so irrelevant are their European performances. They will not get out of their group.
As for the Champions League, last I checked we had a result (singular) as opposed to the 'same results'. The only time to make a sober comparison is at the end of our campaign.
I appreciate however that not all people are willing to wait that long! In fact, it's probably a sign of progress that it's taken until after the first game before it reached this level. Some people were reaching for the flashlights when the 'impossible' qualifier was announced.
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Albertz only more powerfully built ?
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..... and a non-Catholic.....
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.....who is nevertheless loved and welcome on this site....
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.....a Mein Kampfer
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...... a Chow Mein Chapter of the Coltness Germanic Peoples Front
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seville 67
Entirely agree with your view that we need always wherever possible to upgrade what we have. That is the point whether we are talking football business or life.
All this prattle about net spend is a red herring. What is critical is effective spend whilst via Lennoxtown and those people who are paid a lot to do it we are recruiting the best young talent we can find for our future so that ultimately our effective spend can be merged with our developing talent to produce a side capable of competing at the highest level.
In the meantime we must guard every penny jealously and accept the fact that FOR NOW our priority must be to win the SPL first and foremost year on year.
That will always be the starting point of a road that one day may lead where we would all like to go. Anyone dreaming curently of us achieving CL glory whatever our spend is living in dreamland.
I believe that is the route the club have committed to for the present and it makes sense to me.
If I can't see any tall and pacey full backs coming into the youth ranks or via the effective spend basis in the coming years only then will I begin to doubt. In the meantime we all know they are not the positions that will secure SPL titles.
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anyway.....surf's up in ML2.
May All Your Christmases Be
WhiteandGreen
PS the 7-1 Golden Jubilee draws ever nigh
Oh Hampden in the sun
Celtic 7 and the darnel 1
All my life I will hope and pray
Just for one repeat of that famous day.
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Cypriot Spuds tonight
WonderGolden
Teser-bound for he is freer than a very free bird indeed.....his love is on the WinG, he has dreams and songs to sing, it's so lonely in the bars of ML2.....
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thimancraig,
I usually read your posts with interest and follow your logic - however on this occasion I am truly baffled.
Chelsea while not spending to the heights of previous years are still not a good example – particularly today when maybe the reason for that downturn in spending crystallised.
Arsenal have as I said made heavy heavy investments in French African youth. Henry may well have been their prized asset 2 years ago but I would not accept that he was last season.
I am delighted that we overtook rangers in the league this week and do not care to be drawn into a rangers debate but I think that your dismissive approach to rangers this season is based more on hope that reality. I hope you are right and I am wrong.
If you read the first line of my initial post I described the very behaviour that you are demonstrating – I will repeat I am not a mineshafter but will not walk away from my view that it is disappointing that we have not learned from our experience that the current defence is the same as last year – the one that let in 9 goals in 3 games.
Your optimism is admirable if a little blind.
Seville67
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TMC
I think they could very well get out of their group. Lyon and Stuttgart are not the teams they were. I think they'll finish 3rd in the group and maybe even better that thanks to the luck of the draw.
And us, think I'll put this down to a learning CL campaign for the younger players.
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Chelsea Football Club are pleased to announce details of their new men’s fragrance (perfect Christmas present)
It’s called.......“Special One” by U GO BOSS
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Seville67
You follow my logic? Now I can see where we're struggling :-)
I'm not dismissive towards Rangers at all, I've been saying since January that we would face a massive challenge. I think this week has seen some bizarre fear emerge based on the two European performances - an unfair comparison in my view.
I'd be willing to bet that the defence this year will not concede 9 goals in 3 games (in fact, I don't think we'll concede that in all 6) however, that won't be a reflection of an improved defence.
EDB
I think they will do well to win another game in the group and whilst others may not be the teams they were, neither are Rangers. Reports of Lyon's demise have been greatly exaggerated (they've won 5 on the bounce in France) and not many average teams (they are no better than that) go to Germany and win.
The other night they won their easiest game, we lost our 2nd most difficult (given the scheduling it may turn out to be the most difficult).
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thismancraig,
I have no fear of rangers - in fact I am confident that we can win 2 if not 3 domestic trophies.
I thought you were taking them lightly - which considering the challenge that they put up over the last 2 years could be easily done.
They look more equipped not to throw away the boat load of points that they did last year.
As for the CL. I don't care a jot about rangers. However I do want to see us improving year over year.
One year we will get a home tie to start and take an early win to allow us some space in our first away game. We always seem to have to play catch-up and a bad 8 minutes in Donetsk started me analysis why... and we all know my views on the answer.
Seville67
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Seville67
I didn't think they would ship points however 1st challenge, 1st failure and some bizarre decisions from the manager.
For all their 1st XI is stronger they have accumulated some really average players amongst their crop.
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Edward, in German, sorry, http://tinyurl.com/2e3xdu
Big Wavy, no idea why we looked so ill prepared.
Gerry, no.
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Sir Paul.................
Ah! Kojo an' the Gangs', Don'ask Days:
Paul, me lad...you got the ANSWER,pal...yes, you soitenly did!
Picture this.
The Boss, announced to me, after 3 minutes... (I don't believe,that... for a Minute..ed)( I didn't say ONE Minute, I said 3!)...
"Celtic are in, for a doing!"
Sid nodded his head ...Mabel... lifted a supercilious brow...
Me?
I remained... APORETIC!( Huh?...ed)( Well? Can you blame me?)
Vito, he grunted.
After a the 4th minute, had passed.
I was no longer of an APORETIC Mein..(Now, that is the best news, that I have heard,all day!...ed)(Tell ME,pal!... I don't even know what APORETIC, means!)
Brass Tack Time~~~~~
You now have the idea.
Celtic were,not to coin a phrase..
Like a group of visitors from Cassiopeia,( Is that no a Jellyfish?....ed)(It would be... if I had forgotten the extra "i") who had inadvertently stumbled into a MAHJONG TOURNAMENT!
Celtic were THAT, OUT OF IT!
Sid said,"Are you sure, YOUR Guys, have ever played Soccer... Before?"
"Sure, they have...is that not right,Boss? Mabel said/asked ... (I thought, a wee bit hesitantly...ed)
The Boss, glared!... Vito...
Grunted!
Me?
I was back to being... APORETIC!..again!
From then on... it was all downhill.. like Hope Street, on your BOGEY!(Sic)
Almost forgot.
Your Answer?
When you implied that Celtic's trouble, was looking Suspiciously like a Psychological Complaint... you said a mouthful.(Tough word, that... Psych..Psy.. Tell me... Whit is the "P" Fur?... oan second thoughts... Forget it!) ( I am glad you didn't ask!)
The way Celtic continued to contest that encounter, it was ineluctably apparent, that they were obviously oblivious to the solution, on how to cope with the adeptness and over-all Soccer Technique of their swift/ fast raiding opponents.
It was like watching "The Death of the Dying Swan"!
It was Boring... at the same time so Fascinating.. but so Painfully Predictable!
Yep, sirree, Boab!
Don't look now, but Celtic's complete lack of CONFIDENCE.. was not only showing....it was so bad... that they were in danger of being charged with INDECENT EXPOSURE!
How to solve his distressing turn of events?
In a word.....
I DUNNO!( That's two words!...ed)(yer right...but, ah'm so upset... that I canny coont!)
Like Scarlet murmured...
"I'll think about it...." ( fill in the rest... ah'm soooooooo DEPRESSED!!)
Kojo.
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I see Tommy Burns is impliedly accepting the general consensus on this site that the defence is nowhere near good enough. He blames the goals in Donetsk on "individual errors" and then points out that these errors costs us in Manchester and in Lisbon last season. You would hope that this would lead to an appreciation of where the problem is. Players who are not good enough will always commit "individual errors." Continual errors on the appalling scale referred to in Paul's last article, ie we are one game away from 52 weeks without an away clean sheet, are not hiccups. They are symptoms of a malaise in the team that is the defence. Naylor and Wilson have talent but need to be pushed. They are error-prone yet retain their places due to no identifiable replacements. In the context of Evan Williams, Mr Stein had this to say,
"It is always natural for any player to ease off slightly, he might not even be aware of it himself, if there is no-one to pressure him...And this was the worry about Williams...So he lost the edge on his play a little, and tended to mix some very good saves with some mistakes during a game."
Now, why can't the present day manager appreciate this logic ?
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Paul67,
I am surprised that you did not comment on the defence the same ,upgrade, net spending debate.
Would be interested in your view.
Seville67
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My dear friend, Malceye...
After reading your comments...
Think about this...
Fargo is Dead right!
If the performer fails to turn in a...performance... that is Not deemed to be a satisfactory one... then, that individual is in danger of losing his company tenure.
Another equally dismal performance by that same individual... wella, wella?????
No THIRD CHANCE?
Na.... I don't think, so!
If the wine is no good?
Then... Throw it out!
A Credo to live by!
Kojo.
Yer pal... who likes ye
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Can you imagine these phone-ins tonight?
Flanders will be hyperventilating.
'click' (that's the radio aff).
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Kojo, agree. I think.
Seville67, at the risk of starting an ill-informed debate on why we didn’t spend more money, yes, I agree, we need more players, Gordon Strachan admitted as much when discussing the fitness of Lee Naylor a couple of days after the window closed.
However, the defence were not the only problem on Tuesday, another full back or two would not have made the midfield or attack play any better.
We were well off the pace all over the field. As I said yesterday, the McManus mistake will grab the headlines, but he was simply following precedent.
The team can and will play better.
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Met a guy recently who is preparing paper relative to his PHD in Sociology.
He has been studying this blog with a microscope and finds it totaly fascinating.
He is interested in people in this country's passion for football and in particular how the debates on here can reach such a high and as quick,a low.
Keep up the good work folks.
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Sir Paul......
I think so, too.
Pinkety,Pinkety!
By the way...
I am not speaking of, the Celtic Don'ask?... don'ask!!, performance!
I am referring to your positive posit......
"the team can and will play better!
Kojo.
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malceye
Think you're stretching your argument a little to suggest that TG's individual errors was anything to do with the defence. The same defence you're castigating also kept clean sheets in 3 home games plus 2x90mins against Milan. THink I've just re-inforced the individual errors point?
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My dear friend, Derbyshirebhoy.
I agree with Malceye.
You,my friend, have fallen into the trap of driving your vehicle, by looking through the Rear-View Mirror,only.
One must...especially in judging,the worth of a performance... ANY PERFORMANCE... from one at te London Paladium, to that of the more prosaic, which would include that offered by a Street Singer...or even a Busker...
or a Soccer DEFENSE!
A PERFORMANCE, is always JUDGED, IN REAL TIME!
Yesterday's,performance... is OLD NEWS!
The Celtic Defense as adjudged......not only by their last Performance... which was, not to be too unkind...in a word...Deplorable!.... but,that shaky defense, also CONTAINED that same group of Sinners... who are still extant, and doing their jobs in their usual slip- shod manner.
Time for a change?
"Elementary, my deah, Watson!"
Kojo.
Yer,pal.... forever and ever.
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Paul67,
The more I think about Tuesday's match, the more I think we simply underestimated SD. Hate to say it, but Wattie got his tactics spot on last night- one powerful guy up front, plenty of midfield and full-back support- but overall a defensive formation. And they were playing at home!
That's how you do it. Don't allow your opponents space, effectively bore them to death, as someone put on here last night. That way, even if they are brilliant and fast, and skillful, you keep them at bay at least for the opening part of the game. You give yourself a chance.
Instead, we smelt victory and were far too gung ho. By the time we had realised what kind of team SD were, it was too late.
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I agree that we got the tactics wrong the other night but I don't think this was any gung ho approach as surely this would have meant Aiden in the team.
Irrespective of what tactics you deploy when a midfielder loads a gun and a centre half fires a bullet into his feet I think you are on the back foot.
Job number 1 away from home is always to earn the right to take part in the game. We are very good at stopping this at Celtic Park so shouldn't be surprised when it happens to us.
As I said earlier this week, it's the manner of the goals that frustrates me as every goal we score at home seems well earned.
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Italiabhoy - nail...head....hit.
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Am I the only one who didn't think we were ill-prepared on Tuesday? I thought we were out-thought tactically. For a manager who has given us so much and has had it spot-on so much, I'm prepared to forgive that and I'm sure Gordon will be chuffed to hear it. Shaktar went gung-ho against us, and due to the quality in their midfield especially, managed to over-run us. Because of who we are we hate to admit that a team were just better than us on the night - I especially hate saying that in the SPL - in Donetsk, in Shaktar, in Don'ask, we were beaten by a better team. Shrug shoulders, exit stage left, beat Milan.
ItaliaBhoy, I agree with your comment on us but I think you're way off on Rangers. If they play one-up at home good luck to them but teams who do that kill football. Not only do you bore the other team as you say, you bore the audience and fly in the face of an entertainment industry. We smelt victory, dead right. Smith smelt dullness. And yes I maybe Corinthian in spirit but our football was poor enough at times last year - if we play 1-up at home this season heaven help us. Gonnae no call him Wattie :)
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I'm sure Walter did get his tactics right and it's generally easier to at home but how good would they have been if Carlos Cuellar had scored an O.G. after 7 minutes?
Tactics out the windae!
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Kojo
With all due respect it was malceye who introduced the spectre of past performance as some sort of endorsement of his premise that the defence continues to suffer from individual errors. Simply pinting out that some of those had nothing whatsoever to do with the defence.
Agree however its time for a change - but who would you change? Who would you play on Sunday?
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Bloke109,
Fair enough, but we need results, otherwise what is the point of being in the CL? We shouldn't be ashamed of bolting the door shut if that is the best way to a result. I would have been delighted if we had got a dull 0-0 in Donetsk, absolutely delighted. So would every Celtic fan I know.
Sure, if we play 1 up all the time, that's not so good. But the point is that Smith read his team, his opponents, and the match-up absolutely right. Strachan didn't. We were over-confident and badly prepared for their onslaught.
89 minutes of backs to the wall defending and a last minute sclaffed goal from McManus will do me just fine against Milan!
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I think that the management team believed our own hype going into the SD game - a bit similar to Artmedia but thankfully nowhere near as disastrous.
That mistake won't happen again - this season anyway.
Personally not convinced that Naka is really the sort of guy that relishes high tempo box-to-box football - either home or away.
The added pace and energy of Donati and Brown seems to emphasise the lack of pace we have elsewhere.
Seems like building a new Celtic team is a bit like painting the Forth Bridge?
Maybe the frustration in that is the reason why we are all so addicted.
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BTW
In the last week, the Scottish papers have mentioned Mcdonalds 'dink', and the 'good ship' Rangers.
They are reading this site bhoys and ghirls. Maybe all contents should be copyright.!
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ItaliaBhoy
Absolutely, I was more referring to the fact that Smith's default tactic seems to be 1-up - no thanks on that. As tmc says if the Cuellar oggie flies in, he has to re-think it. Players win or lose it, so long as they know what to do in each scenario. A boss is praised for getting tactics spot-on if the team wins.
I think I'm all just for different thinking - from us as fans, not from GS. Part of me sees the CL as fool's gold but I do remember being like a wee boy in Turin with Stan's goal and thinking it's the only show in town. I still do.
I'm struck by Scotland rugby side apparently going to play a weaker side against New Zealand to save for the Italy game - that's anathema to football and CL - you'd rather play the weak side in the SPL before to rest perhaps and keep the 'big team' for the CL. I dunno, part of me thinks we're in the CL, let's try and win the thing, part of me thinks realistically 3rd place is good enough. As usual the truth lies somewhere in between, but the one thing that doesn't wash is to say the players who could have got us to the last 8 last year are, after one game, or perhaps more accurately, 8 minutes, not good enough this year. Some realism is needed.
In other news, was that really Vidar Riseth playing for Rosenborg in their draw with Chelsea? 'My part in Mourniho's downfall' by ex-Celt has a nice, perverse ring to it.
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