 Saturday, April 12, 2008
Queens progress will hamper Euro coefficient
Congratulations to Queen of the South; a Scottish Cup Final appearance is a truly historic achievement.
The prospect of a lower division team in Europe at the expense of a team who stayed in the Uefa Cup after Christmas is less encouraging for Scottish football.
218 Comments:
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To Dumfries & Galloway and beyond!
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The Gretna-Queens Scale of European Incompetence
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The SFTB-WGS Scales of 3 in a row
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Whats even more concerning is the fact that QoS scored four against a team we failed to score against only recently.
They must have better luck than us.
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The CQN- Intolerance Scales of Knowing when to stop
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The True Tim Scales of Success Interception
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Walter Smith must be thinking to himself "Carlsberg don't do football seasons, but if they did...."
Everything is lining up for them.
We hand them a free passage in the CIS.
We hand them a free passage in Scottish.
We hand them a free passage in the SPL.
To make each of those passages even easier, Dundee Utd give them a free passback 3 minutes from time in the CIS final.
An Aberdeen side that we couldn't beat at 2 attempts and couldn;t score against at Celtic Park capitulate to Queen of The South and concede 4 in the semi-final.
And Dundee Utd give them ANOTHER free passback in the SPL 10 minutes from time to converts 0 points into 1.
Utterly frustrating.
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From the last thread (with apologies to that moany guy whose name escapes me).
While today's result probably "guarantees" Rangers will win the cup it also mean that the Aberdeen players won't have to worry about injuries etc when they play them in the league at Pittodrie.
Blues Brothers in charge or not, I don't see Aberdeen lying down to Rangers when they play them - they would love it, just love it, if they could ruin their title hopes.
Uly - with all this man-bra talk I'm glad to see that my advice on a career change to Cher Impersonator didn't go unheeded. After you left last week we were all agreed that you had the best pair of man-breasts west of the Pecos.
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Bloke109 from the last thread - totally agree with the scenario you described (our game with Motherwell tomorrow postponed to allow the SPL to extend the season for us too).
The one thing that might prevent this though, is that this would then allow Celtic an 11 day rest before an Old Firm game with Derr Hun playing on the Sunday.
However from a hun point of view, with the current advantage they enjoy at the moment, allowing us to rest up before an Old Firm game that they can afford to lose would probably be viewed as the lesser of two evils over not being able to extend the season.
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Halifax fixtures in the Blue Square Premier:
March Sat 22, Mon 24, Thurs 27, Sat 29 (4 in 8)
April: Sat 5, Tues 8, Thurs 10, Sat 12, Tues 15 (5 in 11)
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paul67
i thought that the sfa changed their ruling with regard losing semi-finalists taking one of scotland's uefa cup spots? i thought after gretna and dunfermline getting gubbed by derry and some swedish junior outfit (respectively) they stated that no longer will losing finalists represent scotland? i could be wrong, and it could even come into effect next season?
i just cannae remember.
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DBBIA,
...I'll be in the less-well-to-do corner as usual.
stasi blues ;-)
Chris
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We are Celtic support-bras
faithful through and through
I will get my coat CSC
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i eant losing finalists, not losing semi-finalists. it was a late, heavy night last night...
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The Sulky Bulgar has just lobbed ex-Rangers keeper Roy Carroll from "about 45 yards" (according to the BBC).
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Dick
It was likened to Pele on 5live.
We've missed those goals of his though
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I have (gladly) been out of the country on business most of the week. It must have been excrutiating here, just catching up on CQN this afternoon.
I've been reading a lot of exchanges on here about Gordon Strachan, as I expected. I have changed my view on him, slowly but surely, as I've said before. One thing I can't quite work out though....?
Is there any of the CQN regulars who still believe he is the right manager for Celtic believe what we are seeing in terms of performances or results is acceptable?
Do any of you believe he has been limited in the money available to him?
Do any of you believe he has inferior players at his disposal?
Inferior to Rangers? Inferior to Motherwell or Aberdeen? Or Hearts or Hibs?
Having answered all of those questions truthfully, ask why you believe he is the man to be given the summer transfer budget and asked to create a team to win something next year?
Genuinely interested to see if I can work out where we diverge in our views of this manager, the Celtic manager - THE MOST IMPORTANT PERSON AT THE FOOTBALL CLUB.
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SFTB- I know -just suppose QOS lost 5-0 to some obscure Slovakian outfit...
WorshipfulGrandmaster -when do the pubs open - I could get you in either the Teser or the KL,whichever's easier. Us DGers hate to put anyone to any bother.
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tinytim said...
I'm gutted that you didn't use my suggestion for the new thread.
Paul67
Time for new thread.
May i suggest.
QUEEN OF THE SOUTH-THELUCKIEST TEAM IN SCOTLAND.
The doonhammers enjoyed all of the luck that our very unlucky Celtic have been robbed off in recent times.
They were very lucky in that the first division side ,managed to get spawney on four separate occassions.
If only Celtic could benefit from such luck just once?
We are so,so, unlucky.
Garry Pendrey, was quoted as saying
"If it wasn't for bad luck we wouldn't have any."
"It is all just so unfair,we desereved to win against Aberdeen."
Steven McManus was quoted as saying "that result is unreal ye kin.It should uve been us playin the Queens eleven.
Wi the luck wev'e been hiven,we would hiv got atleast a replay ,and hud a 50/ 50 chance oh gaun oan tae the final.Am gutted ,we hiv jist nae luck."
It sure is unlucky times for the Bhoy's.
Don't worry Celtic will boost season tickets sales,with a buy one get one free promo.
12/04/08 15:46
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Vintim:
Vintim,
When I posted those words I was at the top of the bottle; now I’ve passed the bottom and I’m up the top of my second. It is Saturday night here after all.
For the past hour and a half I have been on the phone back to my family in Scotland, hence my delay in replying.
Now that I do attempt to answer your question, I find it not easy.
If you don’t mind Vintim, I’ll start at what I believe was the beginning:
(I am not being facetious but I read your post as sincere and although after too much wine I maybe shouldn’t but I will try to reply)
M.O’N. left. A manager who gave us back our face, our identity, our dignity.
Gordon Stachan was appointed his successor; fully endorsed by M. O’N.
M. O’N’s parting words were: get ready for life in the slow lane.
What the hell did Martin mean by that statement? What was he trying to tell us?
Fast forward. Really fast forward to my post of this day. Think yourself back two years.
M.O’N. had gone. Celtic is in a transitional period. If we don’t win the league, so be it. The manager is only just finding his feet.
But nope, in refute of Martin’s warnings Gordon stupidly wins not just one league, he wins two. The historic Three in a row is on.
Never mind statistics, never mind any thing else at all; think yourself forward to reading a history book of Celtic, and that book will tell you that in a transitional period, under Gordon Strachan, Celtic won two league titles.
Now I’ll try and address your question proper.
I do not blame the fans nor the manager for players underperforming – I simply (very simply) blame teams for daring to score first against Celtic and then falling back and defending their six yard line.
It is then up to the highly paid invention of those on the park (wearing Celtic Strips) to redress the problem of being behind. The manager’s input in itself is ‘limited’.
Just about every Celtic player who pulls on the Celtic Jersey week in, week out is a recognised Internationalist, I’d expect them to know what is required.
I do not think the fans themselves are blameless, neither are the Players or Gordon Strachan or the board, or the press.
And with that Vintim I’m going to ask that you let me think about my answer for in three years of posting on here – you have just asked ‘me’ the hardest of questions to answer. I am on the verge of waffling and your question does not deserve that as an answer.
It is after one am here and I’ve had a few beers, but I will answer your question; as honestly as I can - just not tonight.
If you don’t mind Vintim – I will get back to you.
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i read a comment on previous thread about a pending story that will sink strachan in the coming days...
i know the press will stick the boot into us at any opportunity, but if they have an agenda against celtic and they want to fulfil this agenda they would do well to leave strachan alone.
when waddell and his fellow cronies rounded on martin o'neill, the support to a man, woman and child rallied round and stood up for him. if the press were to round on strachan, as he is our manager, i would expect the same fans to rally round again. if the press attack strachan, which they havent really done, then they run the risk of the celtic fans not singing "strachan get tae" but "there's only one gordon strachan"... that would not suit their agenda.
oh, and we're gonna win the league.
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Tinytim
When did you start doing hunour and irony?
Seriously - you made me laugh.
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Sorry - humour.
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TinyTim
Your facetiousness is simply that... facetious.
Sad from an upright person. Really sad.
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dub-tim,
I too thought that the rules had been changed so that only the winners of the Scottish Cup could go into Europe. If the winner has already qualifaied, doesn't the second UEFA place now go to the fourth placed league team?
Or was that change only talked about but not implemented?
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*couple of points from previous blogs:
Is the McQuilken in the doonhammer side former Celt Jamie. I was hame on holiday and on my way tae a gemme when I heard he had been sold to the Arabs, couldnae figure that out as he seemed a good left back prospect, then again so did Charlie Mulgrew.
“These are my Mountains” was sung by Peter Mallan nephew of uncompromising centre half and left back Jimmy who’s claim tae fame was marshalling the defense in the St Mungo Cup Final when goalie George Hunter was off injured helping the good lhads tae a 3-2 victory over the sheep.
Gordon mentioned Jock’s poor start in the 65/66 season, which indeed it was. However, we were always going tae give Jock a chance as not only had he given us our first major trophy since the 7-1 gemme following that with the Glasgow Cup over the evil ones, he was also seen as the Messiah. I have no doubt MON would have been accorded the same luxury. Anyway 4 days after losing to dundee at Parkheid we went back tae tannadice and gubbed the arabs 4-0 with a scintillating display by former St. Pat’s pupil John Divers. After that we never looked back apart fae a 1-2 reverse at hades where even Jock admitted he’d erred by leaving out Joe McBride. Even though we had made that poor start in the League Cup we won it at Hampden, again the first cup final victory over them since “Hampden in the Sun”.
As for today’s result I can understand the concern over handing them a trophy but could anyone on here honestly see the sheep beating them in the final when they would probably have a European spot in the bag. For me it’s retribution for the management team over May 2003’s capitulation and also to sash for the 94 League Cup Final when his team of minnows did the damage to us.
“What goes around, comes around”
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Just got back from the QOS-Aberdeen game.
It may have been because Aberdeen had to chase the game but the number of times Queens got in behind Aberdeen down the flanks to put in crosses was unbelievable.
The slow slow pitty patty passing through the middle games Celtic played against Aberdeen were painful to watch in comparison.
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Kitalba.
You hit the nail on the head.
The first i was ever called facetious was by my 1st year history teacher Mr Poznanski.
I just don't know how some are accepting the mince(copyrightTT2008) that we have to watch.
Some just don't seem to hurt the way i do.
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Cup rule change comes in 2009 but Queen of the South are not guanranteed Europe. They will fight Partick Thistle for that right in the final.
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Dubtim :- I think that rule is being changed for next season. Whether they get put out in the first round or not QOS have earned the right to play in Europe on merit. (asuming Rangers win the league and get to the final)
Folk talk about the romance of the cup both QOS and Gretna (despite later happenings) have shown this to be a reality in recent times.
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here's something to batter the huns over the head with...
picked up the sister-in-law (to be) from dublin airport this morning. at christmas she booked flights to go to lisbon this week. talk about bad luck.
when queueing in the airport having just landed, there was a hold up due to a number of flights landing at the one time; the other flights were from scotland.
when she asked what the hold up was, a man wearing a rangers top said to his mate "the fenian wants to know why they wont accept their made up passports". it's amazing that a dublin accent warrants the tag "fenian". she did not appreciate it, but through fear did not say anything as there seemed to be hundreds wearing blue strips and there was just her and her pal.
on the night of the game, she did not leave the hotel room because the bars were full, the streets were full and she did not want to be in the company of drunk people who were singing profanities about catholics for virtually the entire evening.
she hasnt a clue about football or celtic or rangers, but she felt the atmosphere was poisonous and intimidating.
the following morning, friday, she went to go sight seeing, but had to change her plans as "the town was absolutely destroyed" and looked like a hurricane had gone through it.
the local authorities were quick to reprimand rangers fans and their behaviour.
see, we're not like them. i just wish we didnt turn on our manager, in a way they did with le guen.
we will win the league, but we need to support every single person, including gordon strachan.
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DickByrne :- I agree with you 100% I can't think on any team other than Celtic who would be less likely to lie down to Rangers than Aberdeen.
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Dbbia :- I know your area has taken a bit of a slagging today but it seems that down in the borders football is doing OK.
I wonder what the odds are in if Berwick would be worth an E.W punt in the cup next season :-)
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locharbriggs_bhoy
We were never going to get down the flanks and in behind as much because Aberdeen parked themselves in their own half with 10 men behind the ball. Against QOTS the onus was on them to attack and get the goals which made them more exposed in behind. There is a difference in mentality as well, playing Celtic and Rangers is the biggest games of the season for Aberdeen so their concentration levels are sharper than they are when they play lower league opposition.
It's like Dundee United scoring a number of goals against Rangers while Celtic, Sporting, Werder Bremen, Barcalona, Stuttgart, panathonikos etc have struggled as Rangers have approached these games with a different mentality than they did against Dundee United.
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dub-tim,
Your sister in law (to be) must be mistaken. The Scottish press all said how well behaved the Rangers fans were and how they were praised by the Lisbon authorities, and they wouldn't lie, would they?
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tourangabhoy 11.35
thank you my friend for your reply and comment. which i will bat straight back to you . the three names i mentioned were for example purposes only as the type of manager a club of celtic,s stature should be pursuing. and not in my opinion, considering just whoever happens to be available, as i feel was the case regards wgs. again and only my opinion a club the size of celtic should aim for the very best with a cv to match , we are paying the penalty now for not following that requisite. i would also bet that if we were to wake up tomorrow morning with the news that either of the trio i mentioned was to take over our club, there wouldnt be many disconcerted voices in our ranks . but nice to hear from you once again .hail hail my friend .
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EU-We've got broad shoulders and thick skins. We also know that if it hadn't been for the efforts of Dumfriesshire folks over the years the rest of you would all be talking like Melvin Bragg.
QOS were my late grandfather's team[ on my mum's side]. Family legend is that the one and only time he got drunk was after they beat Rangers in the SC, so I was thinking of him today.
Steven Tosh is a very good player- Gretna never really recovered from his departure and he's made a big difference to QoS. He's a good organiser, which is important in the lower divisions.
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Paul67.
I feel for you at this moment,There's a hint of triumph on the blog these days,by posters who mostly come on, when Celtic suffer a defeat.
It's hard to understand where some posters are coming from,I know the results have been grim at times,and I have hurt as much as the next poster,but I have a bit more decorum than others have shown on this site in the last few days.
It's rather naive to blame you Paul for the ill's of Celtic.
I come on this site to converse with others of like mind,Celtic supporters who have our club at heart,but to come on here and read things from posters,who are glorifying in the demise of our Manager is sickening,not the way Celtic supporters should be going about their business,Gordon will leave Celtic,and probably at the end of the season,but for posters to come out with such vitriol regarding a Celtic Manager,it's just not on,leave that to the Follow Follow brigade.
I remember when Noel gave little snippets of what was posted on the Follow Follow site when they were in turmoil,well the same will be happening now, but in reverse.CQN in meltdown,will be the posts on their site.
The League is not over yet,Rangers will win it if they keep on winning,you don't have to be a scientist to come up with that conclusion,but they have a hectic few weeks to come,and there could be many swings and roundabouts yet.
I'm not very hopeful the way our team are playing,but hope springs eternal,we may just start to play some decent football,and the other lot,may lose some games,No the Leagues not finished yet,Yes, and do I hear (pigs might fly).
Whats all this rubbish about Cliques,re Babbity Bowsters,the reason I go to BBs,is to meet people who support Celtic,put names to faces,and there are a few who go,who would rather see the back of Gordon,tinytim for one would like the manager to move on,he hasn't kept it a secret, and I haven't a problem with that,but after meeting tinytim,I know His heart is with Celtic,and I understand where he's coming from,also a nicer man you'd struggle to meet.
I think this in-fighting has to stop,or the blog will suffer from all the bickering,let's get back to what the blogs good at,talking football,and Supporting Celtic,The Celtic way.
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Dick Byrne
missed your earlier post - was out getting fitted for a 42DD. My agent says I'd probably cut it as a 70 year old Tina Turner - for which he says there is a niche market out Govan way.
In that way my man bra can hold the Pecos Mountains!
And the Govanites are less concerned about stubbly man legs... Or so I've heard...
What was that song about Gough?
Simply the... Believe I better go and start the dinner.
Men of CQN unleash your man bras - you have nothing to lose but your blouses...Blouson?
U.
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Where do Queen of the South live...?
o1bhoy
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Derby 0 Villa 6
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With apologies to all who have read it already I want to repeat something.
Could I appeal for one thing? That is a modicum of respect for the current Celtic manager.
Gordon Strachan is the manager of Celtic Football Club now and for the foreseeable future. Gordon Strachan may have many faults but a lack of effort is not one of them.
A person who puts in a lot of effort on our behalf and fails is worthy of at least the respect that he put in that effort. If his effort fails to produce the right level of results over a period then he will be replaced but surely with the respect that any manager who has delivered 2 championships two cups and two unprecedented last 16 Champions League qualifications, deserves.
I believe that the man deserves respect for his effort and that those who abuse him show themselves up as being much less worthy of respect than the man they are abusing. They act like playground bullies and deserve to be shunned as such.
It amazes me to think that Wim Jansen who walked out on the club after one season appears to be accorded much more respect than our current manager. I also wonder why his name never crops up when we are talking of replacements?
Currently we have a championship to play for which though unlikely is not impossible to win but perhaps more importantly we have two matches against Rangers where it is essential that we put down a marker for next season. Both issues demand that the Celtic team has a concerted, united, unreserved, unequivocal support behind it, a support worthy of those green and white jerseys, a support aware of the history and tradition of a group who do not lie down willingly and have their tummy tickled.
I ask the Celtic support to demonstrate unity in the face of adversity and suggest that the best possible way of beginning that process is by showing some respect for the Celtic manager, whoever he may be.
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Ed- given the grief on here I had to check they weren't called Queen of the SeanSouth..
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o1 bhoy- in God's own country. They're also the only team mentioned in the Bible.
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I disagree with all these seedings, working out percentage stuff, with that Bert bloke in Zurich, or was it Geneva. It was great to see Serena Williams win the latest big tennis tournament, was she the top seed by the way?
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Dbbia :- Your post made me laugh at the thought of say a game between Cumnock and Kilwinning with the crowd having a go at each other using language a la Mr Bragg.
It brings to mind one of P8ddy's posts when he used the classic line
Fernando you scamp.
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Ed
I have it on good authority that the following will be the Aberdeen side to face Rangers:
1. Jimmy Calderwood
2. Jimmy Nicholl
3. Barry Nicolson (ex Rangers, I believe)
4. Derek Soutar
5. Soapy Soutar
6. Stuart Duff
7. Zander Duffer
8. Lee Duffest
9. N Joy (the occasion)
10. Dave Bus (driver, to the airport)
11. Thomas Cook (holidays, let's go)
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Bloke109 :- Hopefully it won't matter as ther will be nothing at stake by then :-)
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If there is, it could be the following side:
Yashin
Beckenbauer
Maldini
Baresi
Moore
Jarzinho
Best
Pele
Maradona
Greaves
Lee Miller (local interest)
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And they would still have a younger side than us :-)
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Some of them are dead, the rest would be if you played 4-5-1 again.
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U2_88
Now that I've got that off my chest I'd like to answer your question.
Firstly to the question of Gs spending money I'd say
Artur Boruc is widely regarded as being possibly the best keeper the great majority of us have seen playing for Celtic
Andreas Hinkel will imo go on to be one of the better full backs we have had in a number of years.
WE seriously tried to sign Van Buyten and Metzelder but failed. Would either have changed your mind about GS and his signings?
Scott Brown was the talent in Scottish football 12 months ago. He won't be the first to be overawed when moving to Celtic. Perhaps like Stan Petrov and Henrik Larsson we may enjoy him
yet.
Have you seen anything of Koki Mizuno so far? I expect us to be very pleased with him in due course.
Scott Mc Donald? 26 goals is not too bad by anyone's standards surely?
Not many I grant you but when you're having to trawl the bottom in many cases its probably as good as the next guy. If he had had MON's budget then we might have been able to accurately compare. I hasten to add I want no debates of WGS and MON. It just came to mind.
Do any of you believe he has been limited in the money available to him? YES
Do any of you believe he has inferior players at his disposal? YES
Inferior to Rangers? Inferior to Motherwell or Aberdeen? Or Hearts or Hibs? NO This may explain why he's won the past two SPL titles.
So you can see that I believe there is a case that he is the man to be given the summer transfer budget and asked to create a team to win something next year?
Now do I think he should? I'll answer that at the end of the season but I may shock you by saying that I am much less convinced now than I was even till 2 months ago. What's changed my mind? One thing. The frustrating inability of the team to change when the predictable clearly is not delivering. I've bemoaned it as tippy tappy football which descends into bluster if the end isn't achieved. I keep wondering why no-one hardly ever shoots from outside the area? Why when we have a Hinkel and a Nakamura and an Aiden Mc Geady we fail to get to the line and drive balls fast and low into the area? So for the moment I'm not convinced he shoud stay but I also believe what I've posted before also that the biggest single reason pro him going would be that
"A house divided against itself cannot stand"
When the team needed a concerted, united, unreserved, unequivocal support behind it, it was not there. For that reason if no other Gordon Strachan may have to go. Doesn’t matter if its fair or unjust. Its simply the way things are. However I will believe that without doubt the WGS detractors who will have given limited support will have been equally responsible if we end up with nothing.
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Why would we play for 5 - 1, 2 - 1 would be enough.
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Aberdeen 2 (Miller, 88, 89)
Rangers 1 (Calderwood, og, 90)
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My dear,dear friend, Taurangabhoy @11.35.
Where oh where were have you been hiding?
Where were you when I needed another clear thinking thinker?
I immediately identified your good self as a C.T.T..... after reading your well constructed,imaginative,entertaining, and all round very clever synopsis of the intelligent path that Mr.Strachan has chosen to tred, since the nascency of his Celtic Tenure.
Bravo....old chap...
You are a man to reckon with.( Prepo! Alert!...ed)( Why don't you shut up!)
I am looking forward to more of your cogitative and sapient submissions,in the near future.
Kojo.
yer pal....who thinks he has found another soul-mate.
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If he is still visiting this site, perhaps the Sporting supporter who was on here during the past two weeks could post the opinions of the Lisbon press on the visit of the Govan missionaries.
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Derbiyshire
I agree with your sentiments regarding solidarity.
At a time when we are being attacked from all sides.Its important the members of the Celtic family stand together until the end of the season.
I can imagine jubilant huns having a read through some of the recent posts and utterly relishing the disrespectful and undignified attacks on our manager by our own fans. Whatever your views on him I cannot for the life of me understand why he is being ridiculed on these very pages, albeit by the minority.
We all have our own views ,and the debate will continue. But lets keep it dignified.
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My dear friend,U2
I admit as to being one, who fully supports the Celtic Manager at the present time.
I believe that the source of our dis-satisfaction in the all round Performance of our Team's Performers...during the last ...oh... Four Months... is ENTIRELY DUE to a complete and utter collapse in Stamina accompanied by loss of Confidence by the Celtic PLAYERS ...ENMASSE.
For whatever reason, our team has drifted into a Twilight Sleep.
As I have mentioned in past contributions, this mysterious malady which expresses itself in a PROLONGED deleterious loss of form, is not a new phenomenon... it also visited us , at the winding down of last year's season.
It is possibly a result of our enormous over-exertions during our Brave and extended sojourn in the C.L....
However, in offering that, as a reason for our drop-off in form...I am indulging in conjecture.
That being said...
There is ONE thing that I am certain of...and that is,of course...
NONE, of our present difficulties are THE FAULT OF MR.STRACHAN!
It is the Players,themselves, who are to BLAME!
Mr.Strachan is one man, whom I want to see remaining in his present incumbency, next season..
Kojo.
yer pal... who likes ye.
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OldTim67@16.43
I’ve never met you but by all accounts you come across as a smashing block, rarely if ever a bad word for anyone on here.
However……..let me assure you that you are on the wrong track with the idea you have that some posters are delighted at how miserable
our season is turning out - because that was their prediction. That’s just not true mate, first and foremost they are all Celtic fans, they would love to have been wrong, all of them.
Please take this at face value, I have no axe to grind with anyone, life is too short.
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itzallova
Now you've just descended to a lower level. Calling Old Tim67 a block:>)
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Reading last nights posts was depressing in the extreme.
The needless insults and derogatory comments directed at Gordon Strachan, Celtic FC Manager, were uncalled for.
As many have said today, put over your point by all means but why use insults to do so? That's FF's job.
Among many fine contributions today, well said Kitalba!
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Also great to see the humour back.
Are you saying we're flat or what??
(R & M)
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Cup Final preview:
Wednesday, 16 April 2008
Queen of South v Partick, 19:45
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At 12/04/08 16:31, dub-tim said…
"see, we're not like them. i just wish we didnt turn on our manager, in a way they did with le guen."
Actually, there are many amongst the Celtic support who are exactly like them. It is a myth that the vast majority of Celtic and Rangers supporters are different. Sure their may be a difference in the degree to which the sets of supporters are bigotted but the Celtic Club and its directors are arguably the ones most responsible for encouraging our support to move on and leave this aspect of our past where it belongs. If it had been left to the supporters alone, does anyone really believe that we would have made such huge strides in this respect?
The sheer strength of the Old Firm tag alone tells us something that few of us particularly wish to acknowledge. We may complain long and bitterly about being lumped in with our rivals but for somewhere in the region of a hundred years we have been the yin to their yang. Their hate of us has been mirrored by our hate of them - and you know what, it remains the same to this day.
If we were so different we would be infinitely more magnaminous when winning, considerably more gracious in defeat, and we would be much more capable of acknowleging their achievements. But we are not! If we cared to look in the mirror we would see quite clearly that for the most part we are just like them.
As eloquently stated by oldtim67 and derbyshirebhoy, reading this site and the abuse being dished out to WGS has been truly depressing. This was once home to some of the most balanced and informative discussion of all things Celtic but unfortunately the quality of the debate has fallen so far that it is becoming painful to read. You've only got to look at the abuse being directed at Paul to know that there is something truly amiss.
The reality is that many of the self proclaimed saviours of our club have no more idea than Celtic's management regarding how to effectively combat this season's resurgent Rangers side. They are not alone. The management teams (yes, qualified professionals with considerable experience) of all but two of the sides whom Rangers have met in Europe this year have been equally out-foxed. Even Lyon were a shade lucky to escape Ibrox with a win despite the resounding score-line. Celtic supporters easily overlook how close Darcheville came to equalising before Lyon sprinted up field to snatch a second goal.
It is the complete lack of humility in some of my fellow Celtic supporters that both astounds and saddens me. I am a supporter of WGS and I believe that history will much kinder to him. He will have my support until either he himself or the board of the club decide that it is time for him to step down. A knee-jerk reaction will, in my opinion, create instability and that is the last thing we need right now, particularly when we have accrued so many longer-term advantages over them.
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I came across this on youtube It's from 1996
From the original Celtic TV I think.
It's in two 10 minute parts.
Paul McStay - Celtic Captain (Part One)
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Smellthegloves. @ 17.45
"At a time when we are being attacked from all sides"
Could you explain this one to me?
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smelltheglove...
The ''Supporters''/''Fans''/''Tacticions''/''Pundits''/''Celtic Minded''...
Who come on and Here and Constantly Attack/Disrespect/Boo/Belittle/Fail to SUPPORT...Our current Leader/Manager...
Have did so even before he got here...That should answer your question...
o1bhoy
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Paul McStay - Celtic Captain (Part Two)
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In - in - budapest.
A post of rare quality and clarity. Bravo!
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Champions keep playing until they get it right...
Billie Jean King...
o1bhoy
whowontjumpthedykeCSC
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My dear,dear,dear,dear Friend.. Ian in Buda or is it possibly, Pest?
Bravissimo!
Pinkety! Pinkety!.... Palomine.
A wrenching and heartfelt paen of Uncommon sense... ye jist have.. sang....( Or should that no be..."Sung"?.....ed)( Let' no go through Thaat..again!)
I Second, Thoid, Fourth...aye.. and I shall even go so far as Partaking and Toasting, in a Fifth... in everything that you have highlighted... and contained in your forthright and sparkling defense of our... Benighted, Beleaguered and obviously Bewildered, Manager..who is obviously extemely puzzled, at the present ineptness that has settled, like an ole fashioned London Peasouper, over his team.
They have surely lost their way...
Thanks again Ian... and, maybe I am mistaken.. but, I believe ye are in Buda... after all... is that no right.?
S'Awright?
S'Atsaright!
Kojo.
yer pal... who hasn't communicated wi' ye fur ages...
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At 12/04/08 18:09, ian_in_budapest said…
Actually, there are many amongst the Celtic support who are exactly like them......
Their hate of us has been mirrored by our hate of them - and you know what, it remains the same to this day.....
If we were so different we would be infinitely more magnaminous when winning, considerably more gracious in defeat, and we would be much more capable of acknowleging their achievements. But we are not!
*Well put Ian even though I've abbreviated most of it, I'll admit to being one who never has and never will aknowledge their achievments unlike some on this lhist who do.
I suppose in some eyes that makes me a bigot and as big Clark/Rhett said "frankly I don't give a damn".
If I could go back in time and change things it would be that the brithers mcneill went doon the watter and no up it, leaky boat in fact comes tae mind.
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Ian in Budapest.
Another fine example of reading something you just know would have written, if you only could.
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01bhoy
No idea what that means.Gordon Strachan was attacked before he was celtic manager?
Lurgan
have you picked up a newspaper? switched on a TV? gone to your work? gone to the pub?
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Champions aren't made in the gyms...
Champions are made from something they have deep inside them a desire, a dream, a vision...
Muhammad Ali
o1bhoy
HoopsarechampionsCSC
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ian_in_budapest
Fantastic post - take a bow!!!!!!!!
Congratulations to Queen of the South
ONWARDS WITH GORDON STRACHAN
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smelltheglove...
The ''Fans'' who are now Attacking him for breathing and the rest...
Were Against him from Day 1... our current blip in form has Nothing to do with it ...
If we go on and WIN the League they will say it was because the Huns were asked to play to many games...Were saving themselves for next year...Didn't have a clean strip to play in...Get my drift...
o1bhoy
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ian_in_budapest
Never a truer word. That mine and Old Tim's posts were eloquent, I mean:>)
Seriously, an excellent post. The unfortunate thing is that those who'll reflect on it don't really have to.
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Derbyshirebhoy,
Good structured response, thank you.
You may be surprised to learn that I agree with most of your assessments, as they were much as mine were a few months ago.
What changed me - eventually - was the realisation that Gordon has lost the ability to create a winning team from the component parts, has lost the ability to recognise good performances from bad ones and - most importantly - appears to have lost the ability to get his team to get results.
His good to decent signings are far outweighed by his average to poor signings in my view. Even the good signings appear incapapable of consistency - Boruc apart.
The objective of the game is to score goals and win. Gordon seems to have somehow replaced this with an objective of keeping the ball, no matter how far from goal you have to be to keep it.
His first season was excellent considering the rebuild that was required, but I think the second season was - with hindsight - overrated and we have seen a lamentable decline with team 3.
United at the games, but we are allowed to debate the best route for Celtic on the websites.
Kojo,
A reprint of your previous stuff. Players to blame but not the manager who signs them, coaches them, motivates them and selects or drops them.
Oh yes, I forgot, dropping certain players is not part of this manager's toolbox. And there, in my view, is why we are where we are today.
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My thanks to Oldtim and Ian-in-Budapest for restoring some sense to what has been, until recently Paul's wonderful blog.
I used to look forward to reading this site. As has been said often enough, it became addictive. Why? Because it offered real Celtic supporters a chance to learn more about our Club and to offer their own opinions. Mostly, it was conducted with little or no venom, if no little passion. But the abuse that our manager has been having here and, in my opinion, even more ridiculously, the insults that Paul has had to endure, has put me off reading on here this past week.
We have shown ourselves to be no better than them. Mind you, as someone who cannot abide them, I guess I'm every bit as bad. Surely, we can accord our manager and certainly Paul some respect.
Now let's get behind our team. There's still a league to be won..
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Smellthegloves.
Yes I have done all three. Now can you answer the question?
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Petrov's goal today! About 46 seconds into this
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Smellthegloves.
Apologies.
All four.
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Lurgan
you must live in a very sheltered part of the world.
definition of attack :5. to try to destroy, esp. with verbal abuse
I have certainly suffered from that from the other lot.
Hope this clarifies
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So let me get this right
the restoration of sense is that everything is rosey and the fact we have won f all is because us nasty people never gave mr gordon strachan esquire the due respect he was due.
now i get it
Wise up guys strachan deserves the sack and its about results, signings and coaching not his personality.
He will walk.
Try pointing the finger at the real cause not the fans.
Its easy to comment from afar.
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Only one man in a thousand is a leader of men...
The other 999 follow women...
Groucho Marx...
o1bhoy
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I certainly do agree with a number of our good friends on here about civility and showing some respect for our manager. His commitment to the club should be unquestioned and his accomplishments recognized.
I have though called for his replacement and thats because I see signs of Fatal Flaws in his ability.
Sorry amigo Kojo, but I cant agree GS is blameless. For sure the players are a big part of it, but the manager is far from blameless. If these Fatal Flaws prove to be eliminated in the remaining games and we resurge again, then that might mean the flaws were an aberration, not fatal and in that case I would give him another season. If not....
Fatal Flaws in my opinion are around player selection and tactics.
e.g. when we started to throw away the league in December we should have done without constantly changing the midfield engine room week after week.
We should have thrown 3 attackers on and gone to a back 3 when we were on the ropes on some crucial games, not take a striker off and stick with 4 at the back.
Sticking with certain players when they are clearly not delivering..why?
Anyways I will be watching every single game until the end of the year even if we are out before then. Thats what faithfull through and through means,.
Good luck to the team and the manager in the run-in.
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Ian - in - Budapest,
I can understand the argument you put forward in your post, but I do think there is a difference between the two supports.
You said "Their hate of us has been mirrored by our hate of them - and you know what, it remains the same to this day."
I think we all know why many Rangers supporters hate our club. It isn't the hatred displayed for a rival, even for a city rival. It's a hatred of what they believe our club stands for: a threat to their right to win as the establishment side in the country. A threat to the protestant supremacy. A fenian club.
There are some Celtic supporters who hate Rangers in a bigoted way. We all know them. The ones who refer to everyone they dislke as "orange".
But the vast majority of Celtic supportes I have known hate Rangers because of the club's history and tradition of bigotry. The years of refusing to sign a player of a particular denomination. The chants of the fans. Everything we know about them.
I posted earlier in the week about why we become fans of a particular club as kids, usually to support the team of our family and our friends.
But I also made the point, and others agreed, that I had known many who stopped supporting Ranegrs when old enough to understand what that support meant. I have yet to meet someone who has chosen to move away from our club dfor similar reasons.
That I think is the difference between Celtic supporters and supporters of our rivals.
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gweedorebhoy...
When you first heard WGS would be the New Celtic Manager what did you think/do...?
o1bhoy
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gweedore
You are the one who needs to wise up.
You have consistently missed the point re this matter.
No one is denying you the right to hold views on anything thing Celtic related.Noone is happy about our current plight.But we can debate the point without descending into personal abuse.Its heartening to see the majority of posters are disgusted by the lack of dignity shown to our manager.
Put your point over by all means, but do it by showing some respect for Celtic football club
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My dear,dear friend, U2
Is that is the best that you can summon up as a riposte, against my reasons for the present state of unsuccess at Parkhead... by commenting that my reasons are mere Reprints of my earlier posts on the subject?
Of course they are!
Why ?
Because those are the reasons that I propose as being...well ...
The Reasons, behind my reasons for placing the blame on the Celtic Players and not their Manager.
So why should they not be repeats?
I have noos for you pal...
The reasons that You claim, are the reasons behind Celtic's present unhappy performances,are ALSO REPEATS of your reasons, as put forth by your good self... the Last Time that we crossed swords!
So where are we going with this?
I have not the foggiest,pal.
BUT IT WAS YOU THAT STARTED THIS EXERCISE IN CONVOLUTION IN THE FOIST PLACE....
When you proclaimed that My very same reasons,as given in my ultimate posting, had been espoused in a previous correspondence to you.
So I ask you...
What in the name of the wee man,would you expect from me?
I cannot change my reasons for my opinion....
If I still maintain that VERY SAME OPINION....
Makes a wholelotta sense to me!
Shhhhhhhhhht!
Kojo.
yer pal...who likes ye
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The person who writes for fools is always sure of a large audience...
Kyoko...
o1bhoy
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Gordon_J
Thanks for your reasoned reply to ian_in_budapest.
To think that he may link me,as a Celtic supporter and as it happens a Catholic tho that's neither here nor there, to being little different from them shocked me to the core.
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Gordon J,
My late father described the difference between us and them as, in their case, the absence of the Grace of God.
He reckoned that you could almost tell by their faces.
It could be, that over the last number of years, that loss has affected some of our own support.
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Gweedorebhoy
I wrote this last night
By the way I have asked before and I'm not at the wind up you were extremely confident that Rangers would sign both Robson and Velichka and said the deals were already done. Was your source poor or is there another tale?
You replied
derbyshirebhoy
Got that one wrong bit like you did with strachan we all make mistakes
Did get kenny miller leaving and daily to huns right
Nice dig with the tale bit. Really sad but nice dig but as i said We all make mistakes.
Now please ignore me and i will do likewise
I then wrote this but I think you'd gone offline.
gweedorebhoy
Which part of "I'm not at the wind up" did you not get? No dig was intended. It was a genuine question. No need to be so touchy.
No cyberfight sought. Peace?
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gweedorebhoy...
When you first heard WGS would be the New Celtic Manager what did you think/do...?
o1bhoy
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Is there a genuine risk of the game being off again tomorrow due to yet more heavy rain and M'wells waterlogged sponge of a playing surface? Just spoke to my old man who suggested the weather is not looking promising!
Surely if this is postponed again we'd have a shout of being awarded the points by default....
Is there such a precedent anywhere in the dark murky past of SFA \ SPL ??
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ian in budapest @ 18.09
the celtic support 'for the most part' are the same as the rangers support.
well - talk about the height of bad taste. i don't know if you're really in budapest but if you are there's still a watershed here you know, and children are actively encouraged to read this site.
nil by mouth CSC
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bournesoup
Disapppointed in you my friend. No need to remove your post.
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Thankfully due to a week of relaxation away from home with my family I have not read/seen/spoke football with anyone. I did not even know the EdwardUrsus teams score until this morning (I can only assume a usual backs to wall 89 mins defensive footy display).
Anyway onto football now. After being beaten by Motherwell FCFFS, anger, deflation, depression, annoyance, desperation and many more undesireable emotions were felt. I just cannot see anyway in which this so called team of heartless and soulless men in hopes will ever manage to pull off an unexpected title NOW. We may defeat EdwardUrsus team twice but lets face it we will drop points to Motherwell, Aberdeen, Hibs or Dundee Utd. I personally think the party is over and the fat lady has sang. I would love to believe we could still win it but I just cannot see it.
I backed WGS up until the Dons dumped us out of the SC. Now I just cannot see how his services can be retained. I would like to thank him for 2 SPL titles and 2 last 16's in CL and send him on his way as there are many things I would like to forget from his tenure but doubt I ever will.
I can understand the frustration of many in at CP re. WGS but the chant at the end of last weeks game of public condemnation is not something I like. Saying that every one of us there paid our cash and therefor had the tight to show their displeasure in this manner. Thanfully it is not my way.
Just had to share that with you all and I know you are grateful.
Cheers and Hail Hail.
Faithfully a Celtic Fan through and through.
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gweedorebhoy...
Who said everything in the garden is rosy?
As far as I can detect everyone acknowledges that we are in grave danger of losing our title (though it isn't lost yet).
You posted last night that you don't like Gordon Strachan "because of what he has done".
If you don't consider winning 2 titles and 2 cups and twice qualifying out of tough Champions League groups any kind of achievenment then heaven help the next manager.
Every supporter is of course entitled to their opinion however some on here last night (not you incidentally) went over the top as far as I am concerned.
Their personal insults demonstrated that it is not only the manager's tactics, team selections or signings that they have a problem with.
It is the man himself and that as much as anything has a bearing on their judgement of him.
Gordon Strachan did indeed say that he thought that we should have won our last 5 games (forget about the Gretna game).
In my opinion, we didn't deserve to lose any of the three games and at Celtic Park laid siege to Aberdeen, Dundee Utd and Motherwell all to no avail.
As you say, its about results, doesn't winning 4 trophies constitute getting results?
The fact is that a significant number of supporters simply do not like the manager as a man.
They grudgingly kept their dislike under wraps when success was delivered - and it was.
Now that we are facing failure the knives are out and last Saturday's chanting was a disgrace.
I can think of no other Celtic manager who has had to endure that type of hostility.
I believe that for the good of Celtic and Gordon Strachan he should leave at the end of the season - even if the title is retained.
He has only ever been been barely tolerated by many and that is a sad reflection on our club.
Your last comment, "it's easy to comment from afar"
What do you mean?
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bournesoup
Jumpt in too quickly.
Have a good evening.
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ElDiegoBhoy
no worries, it came off for a minute due to typos, still fuming and don't have the time or inclination for an articulated response, to ian in Budapest, the pensmiths on here do it better anyway. i'll stick to satire.
Hail Hail
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My dear,dear,dear,dear, friend... Canajunbhoy...
Greetings to you my friend...
It has been too long between mutual communcations,pal.
I will not even attempt to obfuscate the issue,pal...as you know well... I do have a not so latent talent, for that sort of thing.
I shall stifle my wont... in that respect, out of my respect for you,palomine.
The reason that Mr.Strachan has not changed his tactics, in response to the disappointing results that our Team has been serving up ,in the last 5 games... is this...............
He has no other alternative than to work with the components that he has at his disposal...
He has faithfully permutated and chopped and changed his Midfied,in a desperate attempt to halt the rot... and has had nothing, but further disappointing results, to show for his efforts...
What should BE the perfect CELTIC Mid-field, that so far, has managed to elude the Trojan efforts of our Manager?
I do not know... and He doesn't seem to know, either..
Although, strangely enough....
Every Tom, Dick and Henry who commentates on this Forum...
DO KNOW!
A very, very unusual state of affairs...indeedly!
It appears to me the only way to solve Mr.Strachan's Dilemma, in finding the perfect Team Selection... would be to
MANAGE BY COMMITTEE!
That's a thought... then everybody could take a crack at squaring the circle.....
And, indeed it is a circle... no question.
Several of our fellow contributers have mentioned that why doesn't Mr.Strachan change his formation from his favoured 4-2-4?
In their studied opinion,that subtle change would immediately guarantee a complete reversal in form of our present team ,who are preforming like a group of Amateurish Nonentities!
Or ...
on the other hand...
What Celtic need right now...and have needed for the past several Months....
Would be the Triumphant Return...of...
Bobo!
Bobo would immediately seal up the Celtic Defensive Gaping Holes like the the DIYers friend.... the worthy and reliable Spackle!
or
The immediate and forthwith sending to Coventry and beyond, of the following members of the Celtic First team Pool...
Donati,Hartley,Jvoh, and...yes even Naka...
I kid you not...
or
I could go on and on...
However, a man of your outstanding perspicacity will know just where the rest of my defense of our Manager is heading...
The Manager...and I am speaking of Professional Managers ...in General...
RELY COMPLETELY ON THE ABILITY OF THEIR PLAYING STAFF TO CARRY OUT THEIR PLANS AND TACTICS TO THE LETTER.
Should their minions fail, in their obligations to put into practice, what they have practiced on the practice ground...
Then, tell me... just who is to Blame, for their failure...?
The Manager?
For some strange reason, I find it ridiculous that Mr.Strachan has even to try to explain his tactics and team selections....
FOR AFTER ALL...
WERE NOT HIS TEAM SELECTIONS and Game Tactics...NOT HIGHLY SUCCESSFUL, FOR OVER THE LAST TWO YEARS and a Bit... ?
Had he not shown to all, and not so sundry, that he was extremely CAPABLE of guiding the Club to all sorts of Successes...
AT MANY LEVELS?
Of course, he did...
AND HE STILL DOES!
I tellya....pal...in all sincerity...
IT IS THE PLAYERS FAULT FOR OUR PRESENT LACK OF SUCCESS...
IT IS NOT THE FAULT OF MR.STRACHAN!
I expect to see the Celtic Team.. stage a sudden and welcome REVIVAL...
Starting Tomorrow....
Why?
Because, our Players have reached Rank Bottom...
AND NOW AT LAST.....
THEY HEAR THE FLUTTER, OF ANGEL FEATHERS....
To my readers who have had no experience in the guidance and redemption of an alchoholic friend...
This is a term used..in referring to the sound that must be heard.
BEFORE ANY ALCHOLIC, SHALL REFORM.
Motherwell 0 CELTIC 23
Kojo.
yer pal... who likes you a heap.
NOT
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and this time in English
Paul67,
Surprised that you wanted to see Bayern put out Getafe. I absolutley hate Bayern Munchen. The Rangers of Germany. I´m rooting for DA all the way if Fiorentina cannot get passed Rangers. If Rangers do the same jonb on Mutu as they did on Bremens Diego then it is more than squeaky bum time. That´s how bad things are getting. A Bayern Rangers UC final would leave me having to support a riot and cancellation of the fixture as a final resort.
Can this season get any worse?
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KDS have been running a poll on who is likely to be Celtic's manager next season. Gordon is miles ahead. Fairly sure this was misrepresented by someone on KTF today.
Don't let the truth get in the way of a good story.
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I'm hearing from a very , very reliable source that the POLSAT and another foreign station will either not be showing Celtic next season or the live feed is dead.
Hopefully "our man" can concur.
And while I'm here I'll add a scurrilous rumour of Celtic possibly playing at Croke Park , Dublin. Remember you heard that one here before the E-tims rumour mill ;-)
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The debates over Strachan are interesting, but ultimately pointless in a sense.
The man said it yesterday. He is not going to quit. He will not cave in to what he clearly sees as an ignorant mass of know-nothings, the kestrel drinkers with the devil dogs.
To all those who want to talk about treating this manager with respect, I say this : Respect is a two way street. It's supposed to be mutual, and Strachan has NONE for the Celtic support.
He has insulted our passion and commitment with his crass comments of yesterday, and times prior. His devil dogs comments were condescending, patronising and totally unbecoming of a Celtic manager.
He has consistently insulted our intelligence by quoting meaningless statistics, giving us explanations for poor performances that simply do not stand up to reality in light of those of us who can see what's really going on.
He has insulted some of the players, with his (mis)treatment of Derek Riordan bordering on the scandalous.
Those who talk about respect should bear that in mind. The man is arrogant and has shown NO respect to the vast majority of people not only at Celtic but in the Scottish game as a whole.
And even if Strachan was NOT arrogant and disrespectful, his team selections, tactics and man management skills this season have been woefull and he shows no signs whatsoever of learning from his many, many, many mistakes.
30+ players in 3 years. How many have been any good?
4-4-2 tactics for three years. Teams no longer need to send scouts to Parkhead. They can review notes from three years past and know they'll get by on them.
Watch again the two cup games against Aberdeen. Shortly before the first we went to Pittodre and won easily. Calderwood learned from that defeat, and amongst other tactical shifts he put Maybury on McGeady in the first cup game and marked our best player out of the match.
Strachan, on the other hand, did NOT learn. He fielded McGeady in the second game, against the self same player, with the self same result, persevering with a failed system not for 90 minutes, but for 180 minutes. He did not even have the wit to swap McGeady and Nakamura, therefore giving Maybury something to think about.
It was Aberdeen, not Motherwell last week or Rangers before it, that convinced me that this man HAS to go.
You know, for the first two years of Strachan's term I resented the idea we had a manager who was lucky rather than good. I resented the idea we won trophies at a time when Rangers were lacking a coach capable of motivating the team.
I looked at last minute goals and believed it showed a never-say-die spirit and shut off all thoughts that a team relying on last minute goals to win games probably does not really deserve to be winning quite so many of them.
I look back on those years now and see things I never noticed before. A Scottish Cup tie at Inverness where we were never in the game, that fact obscured because we scored twice, late, and went through. I look at Champions League games at Parkhead where late goals were the difference, and I wonder if perhaps some of us, myself included, were overlooking glaring problems only because we were getting those results.
Like most other Celtic fans right now, I feel these results like a physical pain. Rangers extended run in Europe only makes matters worse, but in itself it demonstrates one unalterable fact; even a team with mediocre players can achieve big things if properly organised and motivated.
This is where Strachan's failure is stark and clear and sharp and without doubt. If there were merely about attitude or, as some would have us believe, his Celtic mindedness or lack thereof, then certainly those of us calling for his head would be whistling in the wind, shouting into a stormfront, our words falling on deaf ears.
But the same tactics for three years. A team lacking motivation, to the extent he was relying on Neil Lennon to supply what, actually, he is being paid to supply himself.
There are so many reasons why Gordon Strachan HAS to go. I firmly believe if he stays we are throwing good money after bad, and giving Rangers the biggest boost they could have going into next season. I have NO FAITH AT ALL in this mans ability to turn this thing around.
With his statement yesterday, it is quite clear Strachan will not resign.
Therefore, he must be sacked.
I believe the board has no choice in the matter, or rather they have three choices, only one of which makes fiscal AND footballing sense:
1st: They can support the manager by letting him keep his job, but limit the amount of money he is allowed to waste.
It must be said, at this point, that should Strachan stay, it is likely they will have little choice but to limit the money available to him as season ticket sales will drop sharply.
2nd: They can support him, fully, and give him what he needs to build Team 4, and thereby take that risk they said they would never take again ....... and with limited funds through ticket sales.
3rd: We can have a fresh start. A new manager, moderate funds to sign new players ..... with the key emphasis on seeing whether a different coach can get something from the present group of players, augumented by some key signings of his own.
I have little doubt Lawwell knows which option is most likely to yield success. And there's one other thing I do not doubt for a single second.
In John Reid (who's appointment I vehmently opposed) we have in place that which we need most of all at a time when, to quote smelltheglove, we are under attack from all sides and rotting from within; we have a war-time consigliere.
If Lawwell can't do what CLEARLY needs to be done, I have not the slightest doubt that John Reid, that pragmatist, will.
In that, he may just be the best signing we've made in the last three years.
-
To all...
Apoligies...
ALCOHOLIC, it should be...
Thoid time lucky!
"Ready when you are,C.B.!"
Kojo.
-
while we still have a small chance i think all talk of tactics and players should be curtailed until we mathmaticely are out of it
whoever is picked should be good enough
we need the players to play from the first minute like they have been playing the last ten of late(without the holy goalie up front)
we need to win 2mor and if we beat the huns on wednesday then that result could be the turning point
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It seems our strikers have a fetish for hitting the post this season. Maybe been watching too much soccer am. 24 times we have hit the woodwork this season. I wonder what position we would be in if only half of them had went in. I can imagine I probably would not be just as depressed and would be looking forward to 3-in-a-row. Our closest rivals in the hit woodwork stakes are EdwardUrsus team with 14.
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Kojo
My wonderful Dad is an alcoholic. He hasn't had a drink for around 30 years now. If it was necessary for him to redeem his earlier failures to our family, and I'm not sure about that, then he has more than made up for his previous "wanderings". He has been for many years now a wondeful father and grandfather.
Please be careful about your quotes on alcoholics. Flippant at best.
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Kojo,
I agree with you that basically the fault lies with the players.
If, however these faults are continually being committed by the same group of players, then surely the manager must accept more than a share of the responsibility.
When I was a boss, and what a great boss I was, a, employee was adviced as to his duties.
If he did not carry those duties out in a proper manner, then I wanted to know why, and the faults rectified.
Any employee who continually disobeyed instructions was eventually let go.
Gordon has not held any player or players to account.
No player has been dropped, no player seems afraid of losing their place in the team.
This situation should never have been allowed to happen.
However, I do like your forecast for tomorrows encounter, perhaps our LUCK will change,
Yer pal who loves ye,
Martin.
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James Forrest
Your assertion that Gordon Strachan shows disrespect to Celtic fans is simply your opinion. I am a Celtic fan and I do not share your view.
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On he previous thread I wrote that heads had to roll because of the debacle during the summer transfer window.
Since none of us knows who was resposible for that particular farce, it is difficult to apportion blame.
Regardless of this, we should still part company with our manager.
I was not overly impressed with his appointment in the first instance, but got behind him. I remained fully supportive, even after Artmedia, realising there was a rebuilding job to do.
At the end of last season I could see no discernable progress and said we should part company then.
It was pointed out that we would look stupid parting company with a manager who had won two championships and a couple of cups.
In my book there is no disgrace in quitting while you're ahead.
Gordon Strachen came to Celtic promising a "vision". After three years we are no closer to establishing a settled first eleven, never mind a "vision".
I find it interesting that the standard of football and overall ability to compete with Rangers has gradually diminished as MON's players have drifted out the team.
Gordon Strachen inherited Balde, Lennon, Petrov and Hartson (Chris and Thommo were done; Agathe was lazy and McNamarra greedy).
After team one we lost Petrov.
Team two saw BBJ leave half way through the season and Neil Lennon move on in June.
Team three saw Balde marginalised and the subsequent implosion of a movement that was light years ahead of Rangers.
Coincedence?
The worrying thing for me is that the malaise in central defence is now moving up the pitch.
Gordon Strachen has signed an abundence of central defenders and yet we are still poor in this area.
It is now concerning that the Donatti/Brown partnership is as disappointing as the Gravesen/Jarosik signings that proceeded it.
Out of Sno, Hartley, Robson, Donatti and Brown we still have no established central midfield.
The same is true up front.
Thankfully we really only have a choice of three, but still there is little agreement on who the best partnership is.
As Paul67 noted in a previous article, we require yet another rebuilding job in the summer.
Gordon Strachen has been given six transfer windows to get it right.
He should not be allowed another.
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Kojo
Gordon chose this squad and who he picks and those he freezes out.
The first problem is his system and tactics.
The team is a series of unjoined components .
The midfield will never be successful in his system as they have an impossibly large area to cover.
The defense is the root of all our problems as they do the exact opposite of their job requirements.They stretch the field when the opposition has possession therefor creating space for said opponent when they have the ball.
WItness Caldwell,s awful defense for Motherwells goal.Motherwell player gets ball 15 yards inside our half and Caldwell retreats to inside our own penalty area before he makes any attempt at defense.
It,s a simple game compress the space when opponent has the ball and open it when you have it.
The distance from our defense to our forwards is so vast its not surprising our build up is painfully slow.Our opponents then can pack their defense and make simple clearance to our self created no mans land, the area between our mids and the defense who are still half way in our own half
We do have good players but Zidane and Seedorf would have difficulty controlling that central area.
I will also leave our lack of movement off the ball for another debate.
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Martin
Gordon has not held any player or players to account.
In fairness what do you call the Thomas Gravesen loan move and the non appearance of Riordan? Perhaps as Kojo says his options are limited by te lackof form and application of some that he has.
Can we look for Killen tomorrow? Unlikely perhaps if Gordon has to take note of our fans who seem to forget his 16 SPL goals in 1/2 a season 2 against our opponents on Wednesday.
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My dear,dear,dear, friend... Eldiegbhoy,
The term that I used is a term that has been extant for many years, within my circle of aquaintances, when referring to the turning point and the halting, of an Alcoholics headlong rush into dissipation.
It was not meant to be discourteous.
Alcoholism is not a subject for levity.
If I have upset you by my use of the term, please accept my sincere apologies.
Kojo.
yer pal... who did not mean to cause you pain.
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James Forrest
Welcome back. Your posts are quite rare these days.
As a training (trained?) journalist you might do better than me and locate the exact quote from WGS on Kestrel and Devil Dogs that took your ire. I would welcome a chance to see it in context again.
You see, I'm aware of how memories can be overlain, and what we remember now is what we think he said.
What I recall, and it is more than possible that my memory is the faulty one here, is that WGS stated that he WAS willing to listen to advice and criticism from people who know what they're talking about and who are considered in how they couch it. He then went on to say that he would not waste time listening to the phone-in guy with the kestrel and devil dug.
This quote has since been represented as stating that WGS will listen to ex-pro's only and will not listen to fans. To my mind, you just repeated that error but, as I say, I will accept correction if you can dig up the original quote.
If I'm right, can I ask why you would have taken offence? Do you like these dugs or that lager? Some people cross the road to take offence. I never for one moment thought he was insulting the fans in general and I find it hard to believe that an intelligent person would.
Doctors and other professionals have to face some really naive criticism from people who have read two badly researched internet articles and feel confident in challenging medical orthodoxy. Of course, if the doctor is equally rude and dismissive, he will be less effective in communicating the true facts of the situation and persuading the patient to take the best course of action that evidence based research would suggest.
A football coach has to cope with the same imagined expertise and knowledge from us the fans. Champ Manager has emboldened us.
I also feel that, among the more telling points you make, hyperbole crept in when you described Deek's treatment as scandalous.
Like Achilles sulking in his tent, the prowess of Deeks and Bobo have grown to legendary status in the absence of any real deeds to observe.
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James Forrest.20.57
What a succinct post,from a man of reason.
You put so eliquently what i have thought about Mr Strachan prior to his appointment at Celtic.
I have so wanted to be wrong about him.
I am hurting.
His results are not acceptable.
I hope that you are correct about John Reid.
Even if you are ,does he have the power to overthrow a PL decision?
I fear that PL feels that he owes Mr Strachan his support ,as he has never publicly shown decent, when PL has held the purse strings.
If PLG was still in charge we would probably be looking at 3 in a row.
That wouldn't have made Celtic a better side.
David Murray made the tough decision ,and despite his much publisised ( on here) financial problems,has matched our spending .
He will try to bury us,next season ,make no bones about it.
If we had appointed the right manager after MON ,there would be some dark days ahead at Ibrox.
Instead ,i live with the realistic likelyhood that they will do a treble,and the nightmare that they will match or even surpass our Seville achievements.
When G.O.D. was mentioned on here i wanted to scream.
Atleast i know that i was not living in my world of green tinted glasses ,that has brought about this nightmare.
I pray that Dermot Desmond get's it right.
Outside my family and my business,Celtic are the most important thing in my life.
They have been my one constant.
They have survived my parents, and were there before my wife and daughter.
They will survive me.
Our current performances and results are just not acceptable .
As San cooke said "Change gonna come."
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I think that WGS has over achieved with the resources at his disposal even if Rangers had been comparitively poorabd by that I mean playing resources. If WGS is solely responsible for the signings of Virgo, Zurawski, Graveson, Jarosik, Pressley, Riordhan, Donati, Killen then I think the writing is on the wall. I thought that John Park had been recruited on a hefty wage to bring to Celtic what he brought to Hibs. This will naturally take time but how long has John Park now been with us ? Is it over a year ? Still not long but you´d expect something. Maybe Hutchison was of his doing.
I´m not going to repeat myself but It is difficult to make a call over WGS unles you are aware of who´s remit is what. It might well be that PL should be ushered out the door together with Balde rather than WGS. It all depends on the active input from these employees and what their specific roles are.
I do wish that this was clarified so that we dont need to spend 20 quid buying WGS book 4 years from now to find out the truth about the club we invest; time, love, money blood sweat and tears in.
If its all singularly down to WGS it still a tough call to make, Twice in the last phase of the CL with a squad that hasn´t had much input from blue chip signings? Maybe this is the way to go if we know that we are snookered in the transfer market. Maybe if WGS has been reticently pragmatic about signings that he´s not enthusiastic about that we give him more responsibility in that department.
I have been calling for a director of football at Celtic park for a long time. A Gerard Houllier type that overseas everything and reports to DD. This has to be a football man.He has to decide on players contracts and worth. I dont think that PL is qaulified for this role and has proven it.
If you look at TG, BB, JJ, JVOH, The lack of full backs. The inability for us to attract players when running in profit while being champions and featuring regularly in the CL.The sqaud imbalance you have to come to the conclusion that its an abject failure.
The fact that we are suffering the same downward spiral after exiting the CL. Leaves you with the impression that the club cannot get its tail up for SPL games. Why ? Prima donnas or is that the clubs seasons targets been met?
I think we need to be very self analytical at this juncture and stop the back slapping mentality that pervades our club.
Rangers winning a qaudruple might just be the smack on the bahooky that they are all needing.
SO WGS or not ?
If the blue chip signings are his decisions then he has to go. I have´t seen enough coming through the youth system to reckon that there is any future for him at Celtic.
If the blue chip signings have been forced on him then the enforcer has to go and go quickly.
If the sqaud imbalance is down complety to WGS then having no full backs cost us in December and at Ibrox in October then he has to go.
If those decisions were due to keeping some money in the bank for BQ swansong then whoever made that decisions should issue an apology and quit or sell up immediately.
After the PLG and BF problems and Walter SMiths arrival. They the suits should have known that every man and his dog would be aware of Rangers precarious situation and that a national concerted effort would be called for and would be forthcoming. If there is anybody that wears a suit and tie to work at Celtic was not aware of this and done nothing about it then they should explain their reasoning and then sell up and move on. They are in the wrong place.
Hail Hail
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setting free the bears
Re Kestrel and Devil Dogs your recollection and mine is the same.
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Aw Naw
And you go to how many games each season?
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Where is Ray air miles Clarke?
awe naw
swing park for me the morrow
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Martin 42
I always admire the way that you support the team,manager & club.
However I find it impossible to agree with you when you say that the players are to blame for the current situation we find ourselves in.
To be sure they have played or should I say NOT played their part.
However ther greater responsiblity lies with the man who has chosen them.
3 years down the line the team is most definately WGS' creation
If they are not playing to instructions he should have binned them long ago.
To me we now have the look of a team that is OVERCOACHED.
The other major criticism of the manager is his slavish adherence to 4-4-2
If he fails yet again on Wed. while using his one tactic then he should be sacked on the spot !
The team is miles away from being anything like the finished article.
During the summer we would need 5-7
new players to make a team that can compete with the huns- assuming that AB leaves.
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regarding a poll on KDS
85% of celtic supporters wanted gordon strachan removed as first team coach
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Aw na
How often do you attend CP?
EDB
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EDB,
about 10 games a season
If we get a good run in Europe and I can make it over to Scotland during the season without family and work comittments and travel arrangements work ut good in can be as many as 16.
sad huh ?
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Ian might be in Budapest but his head is way up in the clouds above the city.
What utter nonsense. How dare you compare me to fans of a club founded and openly fostered on bigotry. A bigotry that continues to this day (witness orange strip, peparami etc etc). References to "orange" this and that are a reaction to the stance taken by them. I would not denigrate a coloured person for uttering "fascist" so-n-so's at a group of BNP supporters.
There is no comparison. Yes, there is a republican element in the Celtic support. I would proudly describe myself as such a supporter. It is only those who are ignorant of the terms of the Proclamation of 1916 that would conclude that I am a bigot.
We are different to a vast number of them (Edward not included).
As for Mr Strachan, is this suitable ? "Delightful Mr Strachan, thankyou for recognising the fear of the fans. A fear promulgated by your team selection and coaching. Could I ask you to consider leaving your post at the end of the season?"
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Kojo
I could not be more in disagreement with your stance that Mr Strachan is not to blame.
Champions have the stamina for the whole season ,not just part of it.
He now has his own squad.Admittedly this has been built with less funds than MON had.
However he has had more funds than any other SPL manager.If we are to believe what we are told on here.
Celtic's domestic performances, and results this season, are diabolical.
I would have fired him last season ,even though we won the league.
Your intellect shines through ,your posts.
I have gleamed many pearls of wisdom from your posts.
I just do not understand how you do not see his deficiences.
They are glaring.
I am still your bestest pal.
TT
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EDB,
CP scottish grounds about 5 times in a season. For this I get to buy two season tickets. One I give to my brother and one I split with a buddy who lives in London but is from Portadown.
I have been to about 80% of the CL away games watching Celtic lose. Not that my enthusiam for those trips have faded. We dont care etc... :-)
I´ve never made it to the Nou camp .. wasn´t travelling to Donestk and took ill before Copenhagen.
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Kojo,
I was not being rude or dismissive earlier, my point was simply that we have previously exchanged posts on the subject and there was little point in me replying to you.
In contrast, Derbyshirebhoy brought different aspects to the debate, which is why I answered his post with my own thoughts but didn't bother addressing any of your's as we had done it to death.
The fact that I still believe you are missing the point with regard to the players failings and Gordon Strachan's responsibilities in this regard goes without saying - although James Forrest @ 20.57 pretty much sums up for me.
It seems that James Forrest and myself finally reached the turning point on the same, disappointing Scottish Cup evening at Celtic Park.
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malceye
For what its worth I don't think Ian's post had anything to do with bigotry but more to do with how both sets of fans react and deal with adversity.
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Derbyshire Boy;
First off, mate, I was stating an opinion on how I feel Strachan views the fans. I never said for a second my opinion translates into an expression of the fans collective reasoning.
I am glad you feel the manager has respect for the fans, and I hope you are right. A growing number think his time is up.
Setting Free The Bears:
I understood Strachan's point in the same way you did yourself, but therein lies the biggest problem here. Strachan IS prepared to discuss these things with those he believes know their stuff, and I do take his point about people who could barely SPELL football, let alone understand how it's played.
The problem is, Strachan has shown increasingly that he does not think he HAS peers.
I am going to mention his appearance on TV during the Champions League game with Arsenal.
I think he was wrong to go on that program, at a time when our club was reeling after the Ibrox result. But to see him sitting smugly in the studio picking the bones out of two sides who play the kind of football we can only dream about watching right now was proof if any were needed that this guy fancies himself as a univeral authority on the game.
Gordon Strachan, who in four games against the V-Neck Sweater has yet to put out a team capable of scoring a goal, was there in the studio lecturing us on the bad defending of Liverpool and Arsenal, and waxing lyrical on the merits of a zonal marking game which has OUR team in disarry.
Arrogance is not the word for it.
One of the reasons I was furious about Strachan's kestrel and devil dogs comment was the sheer snobbery implicit in that view. There were other ways he could have phrased that, but he went for maximum effect and only insulted a great many people. Worse, those remarks displayed a mindset which is arrogant and ego-centric. And they were the absolute WORST thing to say to the Scottish press, who did exactly what you've said and turned them into a criticism of the Celtic support as a whole.
Strachan neither realised they'd do that or didn't care. In my view, he was sending a message out to ALL his critics about how he views their opinions.
As to my comments about Riordan, I was not alluding to Riordan's footballing prowess, although I am of the view he is one of THE most exciting players at the club, and would prove it in spades given half a chance to do so.
I am referring to Strachan's ego, yes, again, and agreeing wholeheartedly with Riordan's assesement of why he won't give the boy a chance. This man, who himself has said Riordan is the best finisher at the club, is perfectly willing to continue playing with the loaded dice of our present misfiring strike force than hand a chance to a man who, if he succeeded, would demonstrate to everyone that Strachan should have given him a regular place in the team long before now.
Further, his treatment of Riordan over his grandparents would indicate vindictiveness, which cannot be doing anything good for dressing room morale. His comments about Hartley being a man, seemingly directed at Riordan, were further proof of this tendancy towards petty oneupsmanship and were not befitting of a manager of stature.
Would Ferguson or Wegner have handled things in such a manner? I doubt it. Certainly they would not have resorted to cheap, schoolyard snipes. The man lacks CLASS.
And this seasons utter, utter failure has to be laid at his door. People can bang on all they want about whether he's had support from upstairs or not, and the idea any of these players was forced upon his is mad, as this is a guy who clearly does things his own way ..... and this season, disasterously so.
He signed these guys. 30 odd guys, in fact, and very few of them were up to ANY acceptable standard let alone Stein's famous "jersey" standard.
The same might be said about many of the present Rangers side, but with ONE crucial difference, and it pains me to say it, more than you know:
Smith has moulded a TEAM out of that side. Strachan, with better players, has not. And devil dog comments aside, that is what really matters here.
Out of two cups, at home and facing a turnaround in the SPL so bad we are headed for losing our title to a poor Rangers team by double figures.
THAT'S what counts here. Nothing else. And as the man has said he won't pay heed to the supporters, that he won't quit, that he intends to hang around until next season, and squander MORE time and MORE money ...... he has to be sacked.
The logic is inescapable to me and I am one of the guys on here who has long been a Strachan supporter. In fact, I once predicted he would take us farther, faster, than Martin O'Neill.
I was wrong. A man admits it.
There. My own impersonation of our manager. Not nice, is it?
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Forrest. May I call you Forrest?
That was a diatribe of puerile rhetoric that would earn plaudits from the tackiest of tabloids' editor.
You are normally much better than that, therefore I can only assume that you are somewhat under the weather.
Your misrepresenting of what Gordon Strachan actually said, betrays those lecturers who i'm sure tried to impress on their students the need for accuracy.
You have let yourself down badly, in my opinion, by letting your emotions run away with you.
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At 12/04/08 21:04, Martin42 said…
Kojo,
I agree with you that basically the fault lies with the players.
If, however these faults are continually being committed by the same group of players, then surely the manager must accept more than a share of the responsibility.
When I was a boss, and what a great boss I was, a, employee was adviced as to his duties.
If he did not carry those duties out in a proper manner, then I wanted to know why, and the faults rectified.
Any employee who continually disobeyed instructions was eventually let go.
Gordon has not held any player or players to account.
*Interesting comment Martin, last Tuesday I was at an Operational Managers meeting and the theme was on accountability and victims, wrote something on this already this week.
As part of session we were shown a clip from a movie called “Twelve O’clock High” this particular clip was centered on Colonel Keith Davenport the commanding officer of the 918th Bomb Group, a hard-luck unit suffering from poor morale.
He has become too close to his men and is troubled by the losses sustained, keeps talking about “bad luck”, he wasn’t being accountable but portraying the role of victim.
The commanding general of the VII Bomber Command, Eight Air Force recognizes that Davenport himself is the problem and after a disastrous mission in which half the Group's bombers were shot down, relieves him of command, but recognises the effort he has already put in and places him in an important staff position at headquarters.
WGS seems very knowledgeable about the game but somehow is unable to motivate his players. Let’s face it he has signed players who on paper looked the part but became non-producers.
So mibbees next season if we cannot attract a top level manager we could improvise with WGS as a kind of GM and a Paul Lambert/Neil Lennon/Willie McStay coaching the side on and off the park.
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jbj713,
Maybe I did not explain myself too well.
What I was trying to say was that if the players did not carry out instructions, then the fault ultimately lies with the person who picks the team, i e, the manager.
Also the questiuon must be asked as to why the players are not carrying out those instructions.
Are they too complicated, or are the players not capable, or good enough, or are certain players just not bothering to play to order?
A lot of questions and so few answers.
Martin.
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Awe Naw,
"I´m not going to repeat myself but It is difficult to make a call over WGS unles you are aware of who´s remit is what. It might well be that PL should be ushered out the door together with Balde rather than WGS. It all depends on the active input from these employees and what their specific roles are."
I think it's fair to say that Gordon Strachan picks the team. He decides who plays, who gets dropped, what formation we play and what tactics are deployed or changed throughout the game.
This, in my view, is where he has clearly failed. Certain players are never dropped, no matter how poorly their performances have been.
Other players are dropped irrespective of how good their performances have been.
And some other players have been frozen out to the detriment of Celtic.
A manager who does not play the best players available to him and repeatedly - good word that - REPEATEDLY - fails to get results deserves all that comes his way.
This is no blip. This is the norm. I truly believe if Gordon Strachan had played the best players available to him at each stage of the season and dropped those were off form at each stage of the season, Rangers would be coming to Celtic Park on Wednesday night needing to win to keep their hopes alive.
Alas, we are facing a very different situation, an avoidable situation.
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The players who are regularly critisised as not being good enough do not pick themselves.
GS picks the team, unfortunately like most managers he has favourites who can become a blindspot.
It's harder for some of our players to be dropped than it should be.
Anyone willing to bet the game will be off tomorrow? League can then cite Celtic and Rangers fixture backlog as reason for season extension.
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James Forrest .22.00
Yet another insightful and honest post.
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Thom The Tim:
Yeah, I understand your point, and I accept I may have come off sounding like that. But as I said in my last post, just then, I understood how it was intended, but think those kind of remarks betray an arrogance which is misplaced and sheer contempt for other people's views, which has been highlighted again this weekend in his latest remarks.
I am not judging those comments in isolation, but as part of the Strachan pattern. He treats the press in much the same way, and whilst I tend to agree with him there, it again demonstrates a mindset which does not like being criticised by anyone.
Strachan has been an arrogant little git for years. In the begining we found it amusing, mostly as it was directed against people we didn't like, but some of the boys on this forum and others always said it betrayed a deeper contempt for other people.
They were right. Totally.
In the end, I am a hypocrite. If we were getting results on the park I would be willing to live with his attitude for years to come. I accept that my distate comes mostly from the enormous scale of the present nightmare.
I woke up to this late. But the guys on this forum and elsewhere who have been banging on about this guy for two years plus, they were one hundred percent right.
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At 12/04/08 21:57, derbyshirebhoy said…
malceye
For what its worth I don't think Ian's post had anything to do with bigotry but more to do with how both sets of fans react and deal with adversity.
*That's the way I read it which was why I was quite happy tae admit that I despise everything about them and wish them all the Raphael that comes there way and if that makes me a bigot then so be it.
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Roy
why would motherwell want the game off when they beat us last week with ten men and we always struggle at fir park
Love
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My dear,dear,dear,dear friend... Lord Martin...
It is not unusual for my opinions to be met with scornful dubiety...and that is putting it as mild as Fairy Soap!
In respect of the fact , that you do not see things in exactly the same way in which I do....
I have good news for you,my friend...
I am glad that that divergence of opinion is so.
Otherwise, this whole idea of the clash of opinions being a necessary adjunct to the success of your offspring's excellent blog, would be found to be a false concept.
Now, that we have got that out of the way...
I am a firm believer in the
"What have you done for me,lately?"
School of Executive Action.
I have many times in the past, used this very reason for demanding the dismissal of Certain Celtic Players.
However....
In this unique situation that has arisen, resulting in a QUANDARY of no mean dimensions, facing Mr.Strachan... it is crystal clear ....that your method of disciplinary action should not apply.
What we have going on at Parkhead at this very moment... is
a
COMPLETE AND UTTER BREAKDOWN OF FORM... that has spread like a virulent cancer...spreading far and wide into all the compartments of the team....
The exceptions, of course, being Arthur..and Master McGeady...although, even he...recently is starting to wilt under the pervasive attack of this virulence!
When one is faced with a Colossal loss of form, covering 90 per cent, of one's work-force....it is certainly not the time to put one's usual response to a lack of form, into operation.
Mr.Strachan has simply ran out of viable replacements for his inept performers..
Unless, he should resort to a Perilous Draconian Approach...and dip into his hitherto untried reserve, of promising reservists.
When I say that it is entirely the fault of the players in reference to our dire straits.... I mean just that.
This loss of form...is a TEAM AFFLICTION.... it has spared very,very few.
I know that I am whistling in the wind...and I accept that my powers of reasoning is suspect,by a multitude of readers...
However, I see what I see...
and.
They see what they see.
So...
Vive la Difference!
Be that as it may be or not may be...
I still claim...that the upcoming game with Motherwell should see a return by us, to some form of normality... for ,I believe in the old saw...
"A Joke is a Joke.. but dear me...
So far we have been witnessing, A Pantomime!
Which I expect will close it's final curtain...
Tomorrow...
Motherwell 0 ... Celtic 54
Kojo.
yer pal...who likes ye more and more.
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the spirit of arthur lee
In all probability Motherwell will want the game to go ahead,although a decent surface would also suit them.
It's the MIB who could be the problem.
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James Forrest 22.12
"I woke up to this late. But the guys on this forum and elsewhere who have been banging on about this guy for two years plus, they were one hundred percent right."
You raise me up!
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"kestrel drinking devil dogs" hmmmm
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James Forrest
Your faith in John Reid and PL is misplaced. Dermot will make whatever decision he chooses and our board will implement it.
There is a common belief on this blog that the board governs the business of Celtic and this is true up to a point; until DD rings and issues an instruction. Then the puppet regime kicks in.
This isn't necessarily a bad thing. A benevolent and somewhat distracted dictator assisted by a experienced directors has served the business of Celtic well in recent years as Paul67 has regularly and correctly pointed out.
Where it can fall down is when the balance of DD's and the board's focus weighs too much on fiscal matters at the expense of good football decisions.
This, in my opinion, is what has happened over the last year or so.
Many of us knew the areas of the team which needed stengthened last summer and watched in dismay as, for whatever reason,these urgent matters were neglected.
For me this sense of frustration was deepened when, at the turn of the year, a board director said to me; " It doesn't matter what happens this year, we'll still make £7million profit"
See how the balance tilted.
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Roy
they way we are playing right now i am glad that celtic were not playing QOS today
AL
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James F
I read your reply. Genuinely, I can feel the hurt coming off the page. I can understand disappointment in WGS reign but I don't know why there's anger toward him.
He's the custodian of our team. He cannot and should not select a team by committee nor by the vote of fans.
You might want Caldwell replaced by Bobo. Mr. Devildug might think that Darren O'Dea deserves it more. And DBBIA might think that Mme. Sarkozy is long overdue a central berth.
My roundabout point is that any manager needs a certain amount of fixedness in his views. You can mistake that for stubbornness and you can mistake it for arrogance.
Look at Swalex, Wenger and Mourinho. None of them are shrinking violets. None of them would win awards for humility.
Contrast Bobby Charlton and Kevin Keegan. Admirable human beings. I really like both of them. But guess which group I'd select my Celtic manager from.
Your own argument that the Kestrel comment was careless because it could be twisted was disingenuous, I feel. He'd end up silent if he said nothing that the Scottish Press couldn't twist. And sure, didn't you just twist it a bit yourself in your first post because you're hurting.
I can understand, but disagree with those that say WGS should be sacked. I think he should walk because he does not deserve what he's getting. And I fear for our next man because I fear what we've become.
But, hey, if the worst happens, we're still Celtic fans, right? And there must be something which still distinguishes us from the dark side.
It's a vain plea, I know, because mob rule has taken over us. We want someone to blame. WGS, Caldwell, Naylor, Big Mick, Donati, Sno, JVOH and, possibly, Naka would top our scapegoats just now. At least 6 of them have contributed to me feeling great at various points during the past 3 years.
But hey, if it's time to shoot a meesenger or two, I think I'm micturating into a tornado in trying to stop it happening.
Let's keep it civil. It's more in sorrow than in anger....
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the spirit od arthur lee
I still believe we are only a few players away from being a good team.
Unfortunately some of the current squad should go,but that's life.
A player can move on any time, we have Celtic for life.
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Kojo
I play pool with a guy who is quite brilliant at the game.
He is also a season ticket holder at CP.
I am a decent player myself ,but this guy is a genius.
We are the current doubles champions in our area.
From time to time i lament about dip's in my form.
His retort is always the same.
"Form is temporary,class is forever."
We sure are lacking in class players.
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Martin 42
Totally agree with you that we have too many questions being asked of a guy who has been here 3 years and is failing so badly.
Time to move on !
I have no doubt that WGS would want to stay on and tough things out - he has shown his stubborness time and again.
The man with the power - DD
needs to take action and sooner rather than later.
That's why I would tell him now that he is not going to be manager next season.
If he wanted to leave now I would let him - the league is over all barring the shouting ( and bhoy will there be some noise at the end of the season as Minty's press acclaim Wattie's heroes ! )
A new man must be given time to prepare - we do not want to wait until May is finished before we start preparing for next season
The club needs the same injection of belief and self - confidence that MON's appointment brought
Over to you Dermot !
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personal opinions of gordon strachan as a man and how he portrays himself are not the issue
he is not a good coach and the quality of football we have been watching from celtic is not the product of someone who is a good coach
he has to go
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Setting Free The Bears:
You're right, mate. This is pain talking, to a great extent. Not simply the pain of watching what our own side is going though, but at what HE has accomplished across town. And what makes this worse is, as I've said, that it should be US achieving things with the better squad of players.
I am looking around for people to blame, but there's really only one man who comes to mind, because he picks the team, sets out the tactics and then runs the show on the day. Players who are failing can be replaced by others, but only if the manager wants to.
I had such high hopes for this guy. That attitude of his, which was very self assured, once had me turning cartwheels, because when he arrived I thought "this guy knows his stuff."
Artmedia was as stark a warning as we could ever have recieved that the man has a "small club" mindset, built not on winning games but on not losing them. Clyde, where Joe Miller, who's managerial experience at the time was virtually nil, told the press he KNEW his team would win the game when he saw Celtic's lineup was nearer the mark than many of us could have imagined. His own appreciation of the relative merits of both selection and tactics was BETTER than that of the manager of Celtic.
Astounding, and true. Likewise as I have said, Jimmy Calderwood took stock after we played them off the field at Pittodre, and adjusted his team and tactics accordinly, coming within a minute of winning the first game.
Did he change the tactics for the game at Celtic Park? Not a bit. Not even a little. Why? Because he knew our tactics would be THE SAME.
That speaks VOLUMES.
I am frustrated and sick to my stomach right now. I am trying hard to keep my arguments rational and based on facts, but sometimes the gut instinct is best. And mine says this particular mess will not be fixed by a stick-the-thumb-in-the-dyke attitude of "we keep creating chances so things will work themselves out."
They won't. Change is needed. And if Strachan is not willing to change HIS approach and our team's style of play, if he's not prepared to change his attitude towards his players and, yes, to the fans too, then what needs to be changed most is who does his job next season.
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I just looked up WGS entry in Wikipedia.
It states:-
"Instead Strachan analysed football matches for the media, most notably alongside Adrian Chiles on the BBC's Match of the Day 2. Renowned for his deadpan humour as much as his shrewd tactical awareness, quotes attributed to Strachan have become legendary among football supporters."
There's some here who'd think he wrote that himself.
It also staes:-
"Typically playing a traditional 4-4-2 formation, and very occasionally 4-5-1, Strachan is widely known for his rigorous management style, [4] and admits to watching video replays of his club's games two, sometimes three times.[5] He also places great emphasis on player health and fitness, forbidding his players to drink alcohol excessively or regularly, and often giving dietary advice to his players - attributing his own longevity as a player to a strict and somewhat unusual diet involving seaweed. Players such as Scotland international Gary Caldwell have attributed their success at Celtic to lifestyle changes enforced by Strachan"
Some here might think that our players should drink more.
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James,
Thank you for your courteous reply.
I can only endorse what SFTB has said. He said it so well.
Believe it or not, many people did not like Big Jock's manner. "An ignorant big so and so" was a common opinion.
It didn't matter as long as he delivered the results.
By all means criticise GS'record, but popularity contests shouldn't come in to it.
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Martin42
Understand your comments, but would like to re-phrase the question.
Do they understand the instructions?
Do thet believe in them?
Are very experienced international players consistently played out of position to blame for not doing what they "should" do instaed of what the can and have always done?
TG doesn't fit? Who's fault is that? He has built a career playing one way. He should change when he comes to Celtic - why? We knew what we got - why expect something different?
Like him or not, JJ has also had a successful career, but didn't work out at Celtic. Then again, no-one else played him wide left. His fault? Hardly.
JVOH? He is tall which means in SPL terms hump the ball up in the air. He is actually from Holland where all players are taught to play the ball to feet, preferably to a teammate who is moving into space. He has disappointed, why? He certainly works hard enough - might we be asking him to do what what he is not very good at? i.e. play pub foorball?
I have no doubts about the hard effort and commitment from Gordon Strachan. Just see it as a great pity that he can't understand that the world has passed him by and he can't realise that many other players are as he was i.e. they know what they are good at and need to stick to it,
Cheers
Alex
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James F
Thanks for keeping it civil amongst the pain.
You say :- "Artmedia was as stark a warning as we could ever have recieved that the man has a "small club" mindset, built not on winning games but on not losing them. "
I thought it proved the opposite and so did the posters here afterwards. The main complaint was that we did not shut the game down and accept a 2:0 defeat. WGS was blamed for chasing the game and leaking further goals. (Didn't Bobo contribute there too?)
I make that two misremembered recollections now. you're a younger man than me James. your memory should work better.
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I still have good faith in Gordon and I do understand why many have lost faith in him though some of the personal attacks are are out of order though. I'm just confused about the intensity of criticism aimed at him since Rangers qualified in Europe with some seeming to attribute their journey to the semis as Gordon's fault. I remember Paul's article during the group stages when he claimed that a run in the Uefa Cup brings in more money and more coefficient points, but the thing he forgot to mention is it is also better for the soul. I would have confidence that Celtic could go far in the Uefa Cup this year (possibly even win it) despite our league form as the opposition isn't particularly good. Remember Rangers are in the Uefa Cup in the first place because the failed to get to the last 16 of the main tournament unlike us.
Let's hope for an early goal tomorrow, I think if we do get one early then we will win comfortably.
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Lol.
You know what? I knew even as I clicked to put that post up that I'd blown that one.
What I meant was tactical naivety. That could be put down to inexperience of the European game, and later many of us did that.
I wonder if he learned anything? Results such as Milan would tend to suggest he did ....... but the performances were very similar to those he turned in with Southampton and Coventry when he came up against bigger sides.
Thats where the "small club" mindset came in useful, in a sense. One of my criticisms of Martin O'Neill, and they were very few, was that he NEVER changed his system when we played AWAY from home in Europe, where a backs to the wall 4-4-2 might have done the job for us.
But yeah, you caught me on that one.
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James
I'm going to retire undefeated now and boast to my grandkids, If I ever get any, of the night I got one past you.
Anyway I may need a good night's sleep. If the result goes badly tomorrow, sleeping again might be difficult.
WG/DBBIA
Have you agreed a pre match pint anywhere tomorrow?
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AAFG
I think Gravesen can be summed up not by his time here but his time at Everton and Real Madrid. Capello didn't rate him and it looks like Moyes is quite glad to get rid of him as soon as possible despite previously being his biggest fan. We signed him in the hope that he would be the player we know from his time in the Premiership when he was a very talented individual. He is a shadow of that player these days and that's not Gordon's fault. There is hardly a clamour of people trying to sign him despite being a former a Real Madrid player. It was a bad signing but it isn't Gordon who has ruined his career.
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Emdy want the ale report ?
sftb -
Teser then Lud, phone me tomorrow or we can do it here
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bhoysean
rangers last two opponents,that they have eliminated, were both in this seasons champs league
their performance in europe this season have been impressive
i hate them
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james forrest,not wanting to pick a fight but those guys who you say have banged on about the manager for more than 2 years and been proved correct have done so with an intense and sometimes personal dislike of him not for any football reasons,i have a dislike for alex ferguson but it does not mean that i cant accept he is a good football manager
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My dear,dear,dear,dear,dear, friend...Tiny Tim
I am pleased that you have gleaned a scintilla of useful information, in the past,from my meanderings...
Nevertheless, my friend...there are times in even the very best of friendships, where a diversion of opinion shall occur.
This being, as far as our friendship goes, one of those times.
Although, to be truthful...this present divergence in opinion, should be no novelty to your good self...as both of us has from the very beginning of Mr.Strachan's incumbency... vouchsafed, conflicting views on his ability to conduct his tenure in a successful manner.
Therefore, my support of our Beleaguered Manager, should not be entirely unexpected.
Blame my intransigence in converting to the seemingly over-whelming majority of opinion, in crying for the head of Mr.Strachan...
on my natural ... Independence of thought!
Once I determine my course of belief...
I inevitably show an extreme reluctance, to relinquish my stated opinion.
That is how I am made.
However, I expect that whatever our opinion of Mr.Strachan is, we shall both be right there in his corner... tomorrow... rooting for him, like a couple of Farmer Jones' Cock a hoop, Roosters!
Motherwell 0 Celtic 65
Kojo.
yer pal...forever and ever.
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I must add though that I agree with you on Jan as I to do not think we play to his stregnths. He's very good when the ball is played into his feet with his back to the defender looking for someone to link up to. I think he's quite good in the air also eveb people criticise his aerial ability but I'd say it's down to the standard of ball sent to him rather than his ability in the air. To many long balls from defence
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Going to Fir park tomorrow and can take along any requests?
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for ted and wg
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Setting Free:
Lol. Wholeheartedly agree you with you. Sleep will be next to impossible if things keep going on as they are.
Gordbhoy:
I understand what you're saying, but the venom with which they've made their points does not distract from the simple truth at their core.
He was not the right guy, and this remains the case.
Now we're off to the races though, cause I've said something I now need to quantify, and as we're talking in somewhat hypothetical terms I could easily get in trouble, and I've messed up a few times tonight already.
I am saying he has not been the right guy, from the start. I am saying we made a mistake. That mistake netted us two league titles, two cups and two Champions League runs.
But I feel strongly a different manager would have won those titles. I feel that VERY strongly indeed, considering the state of Rangers during that time.
What is unclear is whether or not we'd have gone as far in Europe under a different coach, playing a different style of football. As I have said, the "small club" mentality has come in handy in European games.
I can't really answer that question. All I can do is say what I believe in my heart of hearts to be true; with a different man at the helm we would be celebrating three in a row right now.
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Ulster-Celt
Oh maybe so but what does it have to do with us if they beat these teams? Some Celtic fans have used their European progress as means to criticize us, the only way we could stop them is if we were to have failed to progress in the Champions League (like them) and dropped into the Uefa Cup and faced them ourselves. I hate them also but all credit to them for progressing but I don't think it's anything to do with us.
They were pretty lucky against Werder Bremen though, I wish opposition goalies would make those mistakes in our European games.
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My dear, dear, dear friend Kojo
if we beat the Mothers 65-0 tomorrow Ah will gladly take masel off to a hermit's cave in Egypt and think about it for the rest of my honey-and-locust-eating life
3IAR
WG
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Bloke109:
This one is gonna get me into trouble, but if I could chose a song for the fans tomorrow it would be simply this:
ONE DEREK RIORDAN.
My only other request is that you and the rest of the Troops in the Hoops bring back 3 points.
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Arthur Lee -
Napper Tandy, bluenose and no mistake
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aka 'nap 'er handy in ML2
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james -
that will be derek riordan, the james edward mcgrory of the new millenium - not.
Why would we sing this tomorrow unless he is selected ?
sorry, you've lost me here
WG
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Forrest, is it the express or the daily mail you now work for/are auditioning for?
riordan stated he had given up and attacked celtic's manager in the national press at the worst possible time.
he should never wear the hoops again
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James
Derek is a Celtic player and therefore has as much right as any to a song sung in his name. Tomorrow, if he is not in the squad, it would only serve to be antagonistic towards the manager and would somewhat act as splitter. Surely not what's needed - unless your thinking is different?
For sure, One Phil O'Donnell.
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Still harping on in the same theme.
Why sign Deek? Proven scorer over 3years and we still don't know where he fits. Forward thinking?
Why sign Killen? No idea if he can be good enough. Just know he has never had a chance.
Scott Brown? Big disappointment so far. On the other hand he is reported as saying he was more used to a more fluid midfield which moved the ball quicker. Wasn't that supposed to be us? Who let whom down?
Could go on, but you know where I'm coming from.
Someone on here wrote the other day that Ben Hutchison or someone was prepped to come on as a substitute and then sat on the bench reading pages of tactical notes for several minutes. If true the person responsible has no idea how simple football is nor has a clue about man-management.
Cheers
Alex
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wg just for you
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My dear,dear,dear,dear,dear friend.. WG.
I wish that everybody...not just a select few... were imbued with your spirit,pal..
You are the perfect fan...
You celebrate like a Kid... when Celtic Win...
And your take yer Lumps...like a MAN...
when Celtic disappoint!
That is what I call a true Celtic Man....
Kojo.
yer pal....who always has the softest o' spots fur you!
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bournesouprecipe and malceye: if you care to read what I have actually written, you will notice that I made it perfectly clear that there are differences between the set of supporters and in particular on the issue of biggotry.
Gordon_J, I take the points that you make concerning some of the underlying reasons why some Celtic supporters hate Rangers. However, at the heart of what I was saying is a belief that hate multiplies hate. If you wish to break such a cycle you need learn to forgive those who have caused offense. If Martin Luther King could forgive whites who lynched his people then comparatively it is not so much to ask Celtic supporters to forgive Rangers supporters who followed a sectarian doctrine. Of course many Celtic supporters prefer to collude with the enemy and maintain the current position which affords them a degree of moral superiority (as witnessed in the gloating each time Rangers fans misbehave abroad and reinforce the stereotype we have of their travelling support). I peronally would prefer Rangers supporters to act civilly on their travels because there is a bigger picture at risk from their behaviour - namely the perception of Scotland and its culture.
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Kojo,
If only it were a loss of form.
The team has been performng poorly now for the best part of this season.
We have had some great football played, scored some great goals, thumped some teams, scored 4 or 5 goals in some games, but we have never ever dominated any team.
Something has been wrong all season, something which no one seems capable of rectifying.
We seem incapable of holding our form for a full season.
Lat season we cantered the league, but after we played A C Milan, we lost as many games as we won.
This season we have not lost just as many games, but we cannot buy a goal, even to win the league.
I do not know why this should be, but I do not believe any one person is responsible.
In November 1964, e played Barcelona away and drew 2-2.
At home we were embarrassed 3-0 two weeks later.
A short 30 months later 7 of those players won the European Champions Cup in Lisbon.
A different approach and a few players like Ronnie S, Willie W.
Jim C. and a positional change for Bobby M. was all it took.
I look to the future with some good players with a new direction.
THE FUTURES BRIGHT, IT'S GREEN AND WHITE.
Martin.
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James Forrest
I concur on all except we should sing Kylie,s
I should be so lucky,lucky,lucky,lucky,lucky
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James Forrest,
You've got it wrong in the songs department, Bye Bye Derek, is more like it! Any Celtic player who slams the manager and the club in the press should be sent packing asap, do you ever wonder why he has not been given a proper chance? Too many bevvies and late night kebabs or just maybe Mr. Riordan thinks he is bigger than the team and his manager.
BF
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James Forrest
I too would have thanked you for keeping it civil but...
'Strachan has been an arrogant little git for years'
..is from one of your posts above, and reference to 'Strachan' while Joe Miller and Jimmy Calserwood are given the decency of their first names.
aye...Civil. Right.
Hail Hail
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Calderwood. I blame the schools, and the vino.
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This has been a strange season,
QOS win today bears that assumption out.
If we win tomorrow and wed nite there will be one point in it and all the pressure on Rangers, who have imo over-achieved somewhat and they Will drop points
the landscape could be very different on wed nite.
SO those of you lucky enough to be at the game tomorrow, sing out and sing loud.
Let The People Sing...
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Did I or did I not say I would take stick for the Riordan suggestion ? Knew those posts were definitely coming.
I respect all your opinions, lads, but I have been a Riordan fan for longer than I've been a Strachan fan, and my faith in his ability on the park is far greater than my faith in Strachan's ability off it.
The comments about him being a serial boozer and eater of kebabs does not tally with either the facts or even most of the rumours, I am suggesting we show support for a player who has been treated shabbily to say the very least, and those kind of comments only serve to bolster Riordan's wholly undeserved image as someone who is not a professional.
Do I think he should have gone to the press? Absolutely not. Do I agree with him that he has been treated unfairly and in a way that is honest to God baffling? One hundred percent. Would I like to see him stay at Celtic? Oh yes, for sure. Do I think he will? Nope, because what he did is totally inexcusable.
And having said that, I am going to make an excuse for him. He snapped. His grandparents had died and Strachan, instead of showing compassion and understanding to a younger man who had suffered a bereavment, took the nip and denied both the player a place on the bench, which his performances in the reserves utterly warrented, and he denied the team the option of having Riordan there.
As a show of support for the player, and, yes, as a measure of disaproval for the manager and the way he's acted, yes, definitely, it would be my choice of song.
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My dear,dear,dear,dear friend...Lord Martin...
You are abolutely correct, when your say that there has been an more than usual up and down movement in our over-all Team form, throughout this season of tears.
In that respect, we are in firm agreement..
Nevertheless, we have now gone Five...is it really Five games?... without us once, even inadvertantly, hitting the onion bag!...discounting, the glaring exception of our Three goals, against the Regrettable Greta.
I that in that kind of showing.... we are indeed in the Throes of a TEAM MELTDOWN IN FORM of gargantuan proportions..
I am right... or wrong?
I tellya ...
It's the Players!
Kojo.
yer pal.. who likes ye .
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Richie:
There was no sinister motive behind that at all. I wasn't aware I had used their full names, and indeed when I talked about Wegner and Ferguson I didn't use their first names either.
Certainly I am no fan of Calderwood. And my reference to Strachan as an arrogant little git was ill-timed, and a product of my increasing frustration.
Let me be clear; I do not know our manager on a personal level, so I certainly do not hate him. I do not know Smith either, but I definitely hate HIM. He epitomises everything I cannot stand across the city, which makes his triumph all the harder to take.
I just don't RATE our manager any longer. If he were to depart now, with things as they stand, he would have everyones thanks for what he has achieved, whilst many would acknowledge this year has been a disaster.
Criticisms of myself and the others who are saying what I am will not change the results on the park, the league table or the fact a poor Rangers side is on the verge of a domestic treble.
Therein lies our case, in a nutshell.
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James Forrest
Very well put forward argument, and wholly accurate in my opinion. Seems to have an opinion on here that's not the party line is to be discouraged (and that is not a dig at Paul67 who has even come to the conclusion that Gordon must go)
When Gordon Strachan selected Stephen Pressley to play against Inverness then he confirmed he is not up to the job of managing Celtic.
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James Forrest,
your right, I should not make reference to the players diet or late nights, and I'm sure suffering the loss he has recently has affected the lad, but it does not give him the right to do what he did(going to the press), you said it yourself "inexcusable", so why sing his name when even being 20 points ahead of the darkside we couldn't bring ourselves to sing Gordon Strachan's !
We will probably never know why Derek Riordan was never given a run out, but in my opinion as I said before turn against the team and you've made your own passage.
BF
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