Ibrox poison at heart of Scottish society

Hail Hail

Powerless when there was a stabbing inside the ground?!?!?!?!?

Just a small minority...

Plenty of Glasgow accents to be heard shouting " We Are The People "

Now get out of that Mr Pinnochio Bain .

Paul67

Speirs recently wrote about the relationship between Rangers and some newspaper journalists.

This is true, but it's not always the names that you see in bylines, there are others who don't have their names in the papers but make decisions as to what is published and how it is presented.

STANDING UP

from previous thread re Jeff Torrington

TNT, I didn't know he had died. I think I remember reading the book around the same time as James Kelman's "How Late it was, how late" (so I kind of linked them)but also think I remember that Swing Hammer Swing had taken him many years to write. I loved that book but could never find anything else by him. Do you know if he ever wrote anything else?

Hi everyone - I've a very big favour to ask and thought, where else to go but cqn? 5 of us are planning to travel up from Bolton next Sunday for the Phil O'Donnell match, but we only have 4 tickets. The 5th is for a 71 year old Boltonian who, through knowing me, has grown to know and love Celtic; indeed, he recognises Celtic players more readily than he does Bolton Wanderers these days. He is keen to visit Celtic Park for the first time and dearly wants to pay his respects to both Phil and Tommy and hopefully join in our 3 in a row celebrations. Our tickets are for area 412 row V in the North Stand. If anyone knows of a spare ticket going near there (or anywhere really) I'd appreciate if they could get in touch. Paul67 has my email address so any contact could be made via him (hope that's ok Paul - realise it's a big assumption on my part, but it's in a good cause). Thanks in anticipation...

From last thread,

canamalar

I can't but agree with you as to their returning to type within a few days.

Their first point of reference may be whether a mark of respect will be appropriate at Fir Park tomorrow, due to Tommy's association with the SFA.

On a more positive note. It is heart warming to gauge the reaction to Gordon Strachan's moving tribute to his friend.

I hope that anyone who has any lingering doubts as to GS' affection and understanding of what Celtic is about, has those doubts vanquished.

An immediate benefit would be for all the support to get behind a man who is giving everything he has to his job, without seeking faux popularity.

I'm positive the club is on the up and up and all this season's evil manifestations against us is due to a realisation of this from those outside of Celtic Park.

poisonous rats supporting poisonous rats. I have named it the pan-loyalist apologentia.

Been reminiscing about TB and came up with something I reckon is quite apt. In the stage production of The Celtic Story by the Davids, MacLennan and Anderson, if memory serves The O'Byrne Family morphed into The Burns Family as the generations integrated into Scottish society. I wonder if the Davids had Oor Tam in mind ?

Happy memories

WG

inkybhoy, I cannot help but return to the theme that those with the real responsibility to change things are the Celtic fans who continue to buy this crap.

Paul67

Surely the club now has to move away from any joint sponsorship with the poison across the city.

I would also like the clubs reps to start correcting any questions involving 'Old Firm' phrase. How do we gradually start to do away with that one? We are Celtic we are not any 'old' anything.

paul celtic let the scum advertise in parkhead can they not refuse them

Paul67

That's a fair point. Boycotts of certain publications have had a marked effect on circulations, and therefore, revenues, and no editor can choose personal relationships with other individuals over that.

STANDING UP

Cadizzy

Here is his obituary with a discription of his only other novel "The Devil’s Carousel" based on Linwood Car Plant.

I like this write up in the Times about his novel "Swing Hammer Swing"

The work has no real plot — “plots are for cemeteries”, says the narrator, Tam Clay — and is remarkable for including a sex scene that is deliberately funny (“a little Simon and Garfumbling”), a rare thing for a modern Scottish novel to feature. Torrington’s acute sense of the ridiculous is also rather uncommon, and places him more in the tradition of Scottish surrealism — along with Ivor Cutler and the Beano writers — rather than in that of the gritty, urban, realist frame that some perceived him as inhabiting:

“ ‘D’you believe in this heaven’n hell stuff, then?’

‘Aye, definitely. If it wisnae true there widnae be sausages’.

Newspaper sales are down by 40% - and they wonder why. OK a lot of it is due to folk getting information from the net. But that I think is also part of their problem - they now don't have a monoploy on what folk hear. Other sources of news are now available.

I always remember a quote that Nye Bevan used (one for real aul' hauns). There was a Royal Commission into the press in the 1940s and Lord Beaverbrook, who owned a few papers including the Express, was asked why he did it. His answer:

"Purely for the purpose of making political propeganda and no other reason."

The Times (of London not Glasgow) is the one paper that seems to tell it as it is right now. And crucially the first that I have seen to acknowledge the Murray campaign of misinformation and lies propogated to protect the image of that bigoted institution.

Lurgan56

They pay Celtic to advertise in Celtic Park. It's a revenue stream for the club

Paul,

I don't think that UEFA can abdicate from their responsibility whenever they bring their show to a town.

For example, no game in Manchester last Wednesday, means no Mayhem.

If they were to maintain that stance, then they would soon run out of cities in which to host their events.

I'm sure the Muscovites are getting nervous prior to an estimated 50k English supporters hitting town.

Unfortunately, I feel this is when Brother Taylor will earn his corn by keeping Platini's inbox clear of damaging correspondence.

As I said in my previous post, the writing is on the wall for them and it says, " Up the Celts".

Leaving aside the carnage in Manchester and returning to football, how disappointing to be a Rangers fan.

To go to a UEFA final and loose like that. Not ONE memorable moment. Backs to the wall until they score and then clueless about how to respond. They qualified with the LOWEST goal count in the UEFA cup history

No style, no flair. My god they had ONE shot at goal in 93mins.Their “talisman” striker Nacho bloody Novo!

As a Rangers fan what can you take from that game. What memories. Indeed what memories can you take from the whole campaign?

Compare and contrast with Seville. The heart swelling with pride knowing we had given our all against a top European team. Knowing we had COMPETED.

Huns and mothers to observe a minute's violence ?

Chickens came home to roost the other night.
Complicit silence encouraged the odious chants prevalent at Ibrox.
Ostrich approach of Scottish media led to the mistaken belief that it is ok to disparage a religion and a section of Scottish society.

I have a feeling that Murray and Bain will have to face reality to save Rangers' future.
Away tickets may be withheld for future European games. (Only the official party will be singing Billy Boys.)
Pressure will mount to silence the hordes singing offensive songs.
Decent Rangers' fans, I believe a majority, must come forward to express their disgust with the mob who still exist in the late 17th century.

Over to you Edward. Let your voice be heard.

We on our part must be seen as squeaky clean to avoid being tarred with the same brush.

'GG

inkbhoy
there come a time to make a stand and the time is now and screw the revenue we get from them

Rangers tell their fans to refrain from sectarian singing in the stadium or they will have to suffer the consequences from UEFA.When will they tell them to stop doing it simply because it is wrong?The news reports from Manchester both before and after the game showed attitudes haven`t changed one iota.For Rangers to claim that they are doing all they can to eradicate this problem is laughable.

I actually enjoy the huns getting battered by the cops in England,Spain,Greece,Portgugal,Germany,Croatia and hopefully down Fir Park way the morrow both on and off the pitch

Love

Lurgan56

That's a commercial decision the club will have to make, and one which I would support.

Newspapers sell because of football content, so don't give them any. simple really.

Have a look at BBC Scotland website. They have new footage of rangers fans attacking a copper. Looks to have been taken by a fan with a proper video camera.

Very disturbing but there are plenty of Glasgow accents and guys in Rangers gear kicking the guy on the ground and the polis vans.

Not quite the official Rangers line, but there it is in full colour with sound, so however the Scottish media try to spin it for Murray, the true nature of these fans is easily accessed across the world.

But fair play to the two guys who waded in to try and stop the attack. That took guts, and I think one of them got a sore face from a fellow fan for being decent.

STANDING UP

Sir Paul

If the Scottish Establishment is a Powerful as I think it is...

I believe this shameful outburst of Public Outrage against decency, that had been displayed by the supporters of our rivals, will in the next few days... disappear... from the from the Scottish Sports Pages...in fact...the nascent beginnings of this disappearing act, is there for all to see.

As I stated elewhere, the Tommy Burns shocking tragedy has been providential Manna from heaven, much to the delight, of the Journalistic Loyal...in that it has distracted the General Public's Attention from the FULL FORCE of the Predatory and Obnoxious Acts of Public Disobedience, that were so flagrantly showered on the City Of Manchester by the G.A.'s followers.

And, by next week... the insidious linking of the Ibrox Hordes to US,will once more be resumed in full vigour.

The Term the 'Old Firm', will once more be put to full use,in ameliorating the misdeeds of the G.A. supporters,and tarring the Celtic Supporters as being equally open to condemnation.

Kojo.

I knew the posts would eventually return to "football" issues and I'm sure Tommy would want it that way.

I hate what I'm about to say now. Given the extensive coverage the events of Wednesday have been given in England where the written media and various phone in's (Five Live, Talk Sport) have been unreserved in their outrage and disgust of the behaviour of Ranger's fans - the coverage in Scotland - with the exception of Grahame Speirs - has been muted. Rangers propganda has been working overtime - and with some success - in diverting the blame to others - Manchester police, infiltrators etc.

What I'm trying to say is this. I know that the feelings towards Tommy are genuine but I feel that his passing has been used in some sources as a good time to bury bad news.

I apologise unreservedly if this offends. It is not my intention.

Paul67,
I believe the scum would be happy if there was no one to question their lies, lackie as we know is just trying to incite argument, and will suceed, but if there is no argument revisionism has won, and the simple fools who already believe him will be further entrenched with such misinformation to back them up, as I say if this misinformation is not challenged by the CFC the scum have won, there are penty of customers in scotland without us.
CFC telling us we should just stop buying is just lazy representation on their part, it is their fans and club who are being abused here, yet all they will say is stop buying the paper. The only people I know who buy their rags are women and its not for football.

DBBIA and WG

I apologise for mixing up the goals from earlier.

Cadizzy, I have been a great fan of James Kelman for 25 years and I am sure he and Jeff Torrington did have links, as did Agnes Owens. I have not read Torrington and, although Agnes Owens was good, Kelman is on another level.

I want to say a word in defence of Murdo Fraser.

I worked on a story a few years ago in which the Scottish Tories had, unusually, decided to become the champions of Catholic schools.

This never really got any coverage because their research took quite a lot of explaining, but the short version is that, over the piece, Catholic schools have slightly worse academic results than the Scottish average.

The Tories did what they said was a fairer comparison, between Catholic schools and non-denom ones with a comparable number of pupils receiving free school meals. The result was that academic results in Catholic schools were almost twice as good.

As I say, not much coverage at the time because, let's face it, it's not in keeping with the EIS/Muriel Gray/Kirsty Wark agenda, but it happened. I had to read all the research and your man Murdo Fraser was the Tory spokesperson explaining it all to interested media (me, I think).

Just because he's a Rangers fan and a Tory, and pronounces his own name 'Murdeau' it doesn't mean he's a horrible guy.

Rangers need all the clever, posh fans they can get. Surely they can help their club take that important first step of admitting that they have a serious problem.

Never mind the media what about the politicians!?

First of all we had the hang 'em flog 'em Tories talking about "police over-reaction" then quickly back-pedalling when the police released the CCTV. Who said the Tories are finished playing the orange card?

Next up comes Alex Salmond - unable to identify Scottish racism and bigotry amongst Scottish proto-fascists, he quickly backs the tory call for an inquiry into policing but the bold Alex asks for a wider inquiry into whether Manchester were ready. Whit a plonker!

Then Wendy Alexander asks for a cross-border inquiry to look at something to do with something between Scotland and England. Whit an intellect!

For my money only Gordon Brown hit the mark on the head with an outright and straightforward condemnation.

Paul67,
I believe the scum would be happy if there was no one to question their lies, lackie as we know is just trying to incite argument, and will suceed, but if there is no argument revisionism has won, and the simple fools who already believe him will be further entrenched with such misinformation to back them up, as I say if this misinformation is not challenged by the CFC the scum have won, there are penty of customers in scotland without us.
CFC telling us we should just stop buying is just lazy representation on their part, it is their fans and club who are being abused here, yet all they will say is stop buying the paper. The only people I know who buy their rags are women and its not for football.

inkbhoy

Are you able to direct me please to where I might easily find a listing of contact details fo rthe major newspapers? I am writing to Mr Murray and would like to copy my letter to all the media outlets I can find and political leaders in the UK.

What I cannot understand is how Uefa are not investigating the huns because of the stabbing of the Russian fan, as I believe it was inside the stadium that he got attacked and six Orcs got arested for it, surely that falls in their juridiction and weren't they singing the racist "famine" song in the stadium too.

I don't know if they singing more vile songs in the second half as I switched it off at half-time mainly because I was bored but in truth I was also a bit nervous that they were going to fluke it. I watched "The Apprentice" instead, as a bit of a marxist, I would rather watched a bunch of wannabe capitalist run around making fools of themselves than the anti-football tripe that was on offer. It wasn't till my cousin text me to say St Peter had scored that I flicked it backed just in time to see the second goal go in.

incredible that uefa are to investigte zenit for there fans incursion onto the pitch on wednesday,sureley a example of joy at winning,yet rankers fans can wreck manchester and uefa can do nothing,totaly bewildered at that

Kojo/Lurgan -

I agree.

They are beneath contempt and will use ANY situation for their own ends.

WG

Noel,

I watched as much of that link as I could stomach.

I would like the Greater Manchester Police to officially summon Murray ,Bain and all the Editors of Scottish papers to Manchester and make them sit through the footage that has been gathered.

What is this talk about "decent" Rangers supporters. There are no such people.

There are some who can hide their baser instincts better than others and put a gloss on things. That is just a mask.

The upper echelons of Scottish society is awash with smooth, affable, Jock Tamson's bairns type of people.

They are the ones who drive the inherent bigotry of the country, not the knuckledragger.

Every "decent" fan pays the same money into the evil coffers as the transparent bigot, therefore they actively support the said organisation. It is not rocket science or even stretching logic too far to suggest that the evil tree does not bring forth good fruit, is it?

In case everybody's pet Rangers fan feels the need to describe me as a bogot, AGAIN. Forget it. I have had enought of Rangers apologists, in all walks of life.

Stevie, if Nike offer £5m per season to both clubs and the second highest offer is £3m, should we take it to ensure we have a different sponsor even though we know they have a better deal?

Tricky one.

Lurgan56, I’ve discussed this issue with our man. When he wants to sell season tickets an ad in the newspaper apparently brings in completed forms; a quid pro quo on adverts might be better than cash going one way.

It’s another tricky one which I know Celtic are unsure how best to deal with and have under review at the moment.

Can I ask you to consider one additional point:

While Celtic fans buy their newspapers the club are vulnerable to attack. I know our man feels breaking off all communication permanently (short term stoppages are more common than you would think) is likely to increase the anti-Celtic reporting.

Thomthethim, I agree. I wonder if the Uefa Executive Committee meeting on Monday will have an extra item on the agenda.

Kojo, aye, surprised we didn’t see ‘Old Firm’ fans rioted.

inkbhoy
yes it is a commercial decision and a decision that celtic should take for we are celtic and we are of a higher order than that shower filth

Thomthethim

Here's a wee syllogism.

It's a decent thing for football fans to have paid tributes to Tommy Burns at the main entrance to Celtic Park this week.

Rangers fans, beaten and ashamed from the events on and off the field at the Uefa Cup Final, made a detour on the way home to pay their respects.

Therefore, there must be some decent Rangers supporters.

Rangers violations:
1) Stabbing of opposing fan
2) Singing of banned sectarian songs
3) Full scale rioting resulting in multiple police officer injuries and moderate amounts of damage

Zenit violation:
1) Fan celebratory incursion (

So which does UEFA choose to investigate further? The far lessor of the two evils of course! When you think about it, and this is the saddest fact of all in my opinion, we really shouldn't be suprised anymore, this has been par for the course since Genesis.

There's a fairly easy way to establish the fiction of the official line from Rangers that the thugs responsible for the horrendous attack on that poor policeman, wrecking that car, giving that poor dug food poisoning et al, are 'not normally supporters of our club' 'infiltrators' 'people not normally associated' etc etc.

Of the 42, at the last count, who were arrested and appeared in Court, it should be fairly easy to check their addresses.

From there, it should be a piece of cake to establish whether they are season ticket holders at Mordor.

Failing that, their addresses, for bail purposes, being a matter of public record, the press could do a little bit of doorstepping, getting the individual stories behind the mayhem etc.

Up here, for example, the Scottish Courts Administration now publish online Court lists for every Sheriff Court in Scotland, a week or so in advance, making it relatively easy to see who is up for what and when.

Most of the n'er do wells who were in custody on Wenesday night/Tursday morning would have been through the Magistrate's Court in Manchester yesterday p.m. or this morning.

Doesn't sound like too hard a job for a committed and conscientious journo does it?

Or are they just lazy and agenda ridden?

My recollection of the news after that eejit ran on to the pitch at Celtic Park when we beat AC Milan in the Autumn was that there was a very high profile and effective campaign to name and shame him, which the media joined in, in fact drove on, with gusto (after days of slavering speculation that the incident would result in our expulsion from the competition, naturally).

Some contrast.

In the same vein as Lurgan's post. I delayed posting my views on this as I didn't want to pollute Tommy's thread.

However, I'm absolutely disgusted that Rangers claimed they cancelled their open top bus through Glasgow out of respect for Tommy Burns. They should have the damned balls to admit they had no choice but to cancel due to the conduct of their fans, instead of seizing a diversionary opportunity from a great man's death.

As a friend once said, they've sunk so low they could dance under a snake's belly wearing a top hat.

The majority of opinion would go along with a refusal to buy the Scottish papers that weep on and on about free kicks and corners being "given" to Celtic and yet say nothing when a Rangers player or players deliberately assault opponents on the pitch.My daughter lives in Stirling and when I first went to visit her over 10 years ago I loved to read the Daily Record because of the coverage it gave to football acroos all leagues. It wasn't too long before the bias was apparent.Where do you get an even-handed newspaper in Scotland? The coverage of games by Setanta is a joke.There is no even handedness to be seen or heard.I have written to say that I will not be buying their product until this is remedied.At the same time that chancer Jim Beglin,ex Liverpool and Republic of Ireland,is the biggest Hun it has been my misfortune to listen to. You would imagine that he would know a little history, would you not?
The good thing to come out of this saddest of weeks is that Rangers "fans"were seen for what they are.A tiny minority? I don't think so.They were played off the park, and their usual "robust" physical approach was more than matched by the Russians.The referee did not intervene to award them their usual free kicks or yellow-carding the opposition as they are used to in The SPL. Football was the winner,as it was in 1967.

The Narrowbhoat Tim:

I grew up just along the road from the Rootes car factory in Linwood and will keep an eye out for Jeff´s book. It is an example of how working people can blossom into creative human beings, given half the chance.

What a contrast to the sad cases who descended on Manchester, strung out on the Rangers kick. The saddest news for me has been that Manchester Utd fans will not be able to watch their team on big screens next week because of the viscous attacks by the Rangers gangs. Decent football supporters suffering, due to the worst behaved supporters in history.

It is disappointing to hear how timidly some politicians like Alex Salmond, whom I often agree with, has responded to this. The Provost of Glasgow should also issue an apology. They are not a minority, they are the worst elements of Scottish Society and sadly there are far too many of them and they go about their thuggery in the knowledge that they are immune to punishment, because as Paul points out the people in power at Ibrox, will turn a blind eye.

Paul & Inkbhoy

As far as I'm aware the Celtic View is published and printed by the DR/SM print shop in Cardonald. If this is true, it would be a good place for the club to start.

Lurgan56

I don't belive that the revenue is the issue. I still think the club do not want to start banning any media outlet from Celtic Park, because it would fly in the face of the club's own mission statement. When Graham Spiers was 'personna no grata' at the other place, we all had a laugh because of how foolish it made them look.

As for the moral tone from Bain/Murray and some Rangers fans, ignoring it,smirking or half heatedly joining in when the morons start up is condoning what they do...
Martin Luther King Junior said " He who accepts evil without really protesting against it is really cooperating with it. "

There are a great many decent fans from across the divide, and we have seen some of them at Celtic Park over the last 36 hours. However, it is the inability of their Chairman and others to set a clear example that encourages the bigots and morons. These people take comfort and encouragement from the outburts from people like Fraser,Murray and Bain whose first reaction is to blame everyone and anyone first, Rangers fans rarely and themselves never.

A clear policy, adequate and trained staff and one difficult season of implementation and the message would be loud and clear. This is called leadership and taking responsibility.

Sorry longer than I intended. Mini rant over!

I think Alan Brazil must be writing the talkSPORT news bulletins, all day the lead story is the poor Policeman that got set upon by the pack of Orcs, on the hour and half hour all you hear is him saying "I thought I was going to die by the hands of the R#####s fans". Here in the midlands days before the game I was telling all my English workmates that the huns will wreck Manchester that there will be riots, they all thought I was just being bias, all day yesterday they kept coming up to me and saying "narrowbhoat you were right".

It don't matter how much the Laptop Loyal try to cover it up in Scotland down here the Orcs are now looked upon as scum. Manure fans now are cursing them because as the City has cancelled the big screens for the the CL Final. I might be cynical but ever since Gord Brown has become the PM he has tried to distance himself from being Scottish, hence he came out against the huns. Brown's campaign for everyone to embrace the sense of "Britishness" wasn't help by all them mad Orcs battling the police while draped in the Union Jack.

Celtic First,

Without knowing what a syllogism is, aside from something Momo might have said, I don't agree with your ,for once, trite response.

You are one poster whom I admire for your logical thinking and I would have though that "the Evil Tree" analogy would have had some resonance.

My answer to your syllogism would be, "Why would decent people like you, who have broken your journey to pay your respects, support a club who are the flagship for most of the bigotry in this country".

To paraphrase, we should be asking the Why question.

“It is strange that our club and our real supporters are victims of the misbehaviour of people we have nothing to do with.”

Who said that?

Onno Jacobs, director of Feyenoord in February 2007 after UEFA had upheld Feyenoord's ban from European competition for the behaviour of their fans in a UEFA Cup game in Nancy.

Thomthethim

Fair enough. I thought that might be your response. It's an age-old argument, as you say, and not one I feel I can win, so I'm happy to leave it.

Don't do links, but if you go into the manchester evening news site, they have a 8 minute video, showing stuff you may have already seen, however there is also a good 5 mintues worth of film, taken from the eye in the sky!

The sooner we drop the old firm tag the better

With all due respect Celtic First, I also enjoy your posts and repect your intellect but...I'm sorry, I have no sympathy at all for posh Rangers fans. They should know better if they have any so called education. They are the same lot who sent " Many young men of twenty " over the top in two world wars. They send their own young men of today over the top in the trenches in Manchester.

Thom The Thim,Lurgan,Sons Of Erin-

The Scottish Media can make like ostrichs as much as they like-

This One Is Too Big and Far Too Bad To Bury

The Feyenoord quote suggests that Mr Jacobs's argument that "they weren't really our fans" held as much sway with Uefa as my syllogism did with Thom.

Uefa upheld the ban and slapped a £40,000 fine on them for wasting everyone's time with rubbishy logic.

Celtic First,

Unfortunately, it's an argument no one can win.

Respects

From the Daily Rankers the only Orc mentioned who was arrested.

"A NUMBER of people appeared in court yesterday over the trouble. Philip O'Donnell, 26, from Corkerhill, Glasgow, was fined £400 and banned from all football grounds in England and Wales for three years after he admitted assaulting a cop."

Now I'm no Dick Tracy but shurely that name is an ALIAS, come on now Phil O'Donnell, do they think we came up the Clyde in a Banananarrowbhoat.

Smelltheglove.

Glad you brought up the point about Smith's bewilderment after the first goal on Wednesday. Just before that, he was getting ready to do the same thing as they always do in these situations, which is, bring on a bit of pace (Novo) and get at the opposition a bit more hoping to sneak a goal. Then shut up shop again. Often the surprise change in pace, catches their opponents off guard.

This time however, Zenit scored on 71 mins, with perfect timing, and completely scuppered that plan. It was interesting to see his reaction on the bench. He seemed to physically wilt, and was staring at a blank sheet of paper, occasionally appearing to scribble something only to then score it out. In the end it's clear his mind was blank and the only option was, blooter it up the park and hope for the best.

Smith was found out on Wednesday, and his veneer of wisdom and tactical nous fell to the floor like a wet towel, exposing his inadequacies.

I was half hoping they might squeak a jammy equaliser, as the changes he made after the first goal, and the comparitive pace and skill of Zenit, could have meant a truly horrible humping.

All the best.

Celticfirst - Thanks for teaching me a new word.

Paul,

Name names 'out' the jurnos.

700M oodles well spent?

Chris

Maybe i'm just being naive but,is it not the remit of the local police force,to ensure the safety of the citizens in it's charge?,i ask this because i can truly see a time,not too far distant,when the powers that be will simply not allow a match to take place under their jurisdiction,a match involving scotlands shame that is.EUFA have a responsibility which extends to every location in which their tournament is played,THEY coulsd easily take the initiative and simply not allow rangers entry to it's competitions,that would eradicate the need for police forces to be put in such a posititon.I ask one more question,is their even one Celtic fan on here who was surprised at the behaviour last wednesday?,i live in the USA and therefore am not able to keep up to speed with first hand info,after the game i called my best mate for a laugh and a gloat(don't tell me you did not do the same),as we said our cheerios,i asked him to call me back when the riot started,and i ain't no Nostradamus.

Noel,

Thanks for the links. As long as this site exists, there isn't a carpet big enough to sweep the dirt under.

Heading for An Cuirt now. My wife's retirement bash with wall to wall nurses.

Will catch up tomorrow.

Celtic First,

I hope my response was not offensive, as I always admire your posts.

Elbhoy

The Celtic View and rangers news used to be published by First Press, which was bought by DR/SM, and were printed at Cardonald

The View and the other one are now published by an English-based company although the content is provided by staff at Celtic Park.

I don't know if the View is still printed at Cardonald.

After the production switched to England, a real howler appeared in the rangers mag.

THey had wanted a picture of the Thornton Suite, one of the hospitality venues in Ibrox, to run alongside a competition.

UNfortunately, the English got confused and put in a picture of a box of chocolates, having mistaken the phone call as Thornton's sweets, not suite.

If that had been spotted at pre-press in Cardonald, I'm sure it would have been noticed.

STANDING UP

It might take a long time for it to permeate our society but if we all referred to Rangers as the Old Firm it would

a) not be an insult to them.
b) close a door on a chapter in our history.
c) Allow Celtic to emancipate itself from an ugly sister.
d) Probably never work.

Sorry I got a bit tetchy there C1 but the Old Firm does that to me.

Rimtimtim

I haven't read his book about Rootes car factory in Linwood but if it is like his first book "Swing Hammer Swing" then you are in for a treat. If you find it let me know how it is for I am interested in the subject having spent the good part of the last 3 years studying Industrial Relations and factories like Rootes.

Thomthethim

No danger of offence. Absolutely none.

Rangers FC- Rotton to the core, rotton from the core.

They are trying to shift the blame on to Manchester, don't forget they brought the Manchester civic authorities and police up to Ibrox and virtually BEGGED them to allow the hordes to travel. They relented and I bet they will rue this decision for evermore.

Anyone with any grasp of reality knew that this week's events were inevitable, hindsight is a great thing but so is foresight- the risk of major trouble was staring Bain, Scott and Murray straight in the face.
This was a free for all and Rangers FC gave no firm or clear edict to the fans what to expect and how they should behave. They were simply hell-bent on eclipsing the Celtic Seville experience- how this has backfired on them big time.

"Rangers supporters... a permanent embarrassment and an occasional disgrace" Ian Archer 1976. 32 years later and nothing has changed.

Beijing Celt

Couldn’t agree more.

The mask of wisdom was soon replaced by the look of abject bewilderment.

Rimtimtim

No problem. I knew I was sailing close to the wind, but I thought it was brave of Murdo Fraser to stick up for Catholic schools that time so I wanted to put a word in for him.

goldstar10,

You are absolutely correct to point out that RFC lobbied for fans without tickets to be allowed to travel, against the initial position taken by the authorities in Manchester. And presumably some guarentees of good behaviour were given, it is logical to assume?

Now can a club be allowed to create a situation whereby the mob decended on Manchester but feign no responsibility for its actions? Surely there is some criminal liability there? What is the UK equivalent of the US charge of reckless endangerment so beloved of Jack McCoy?

Lawandorder cfc

Inkybhoy,

The Celtic View has never been printed at Cardonald.
The Celtic View (and Rangers News) used to be printed at the Polestar print plant in College Milton, East Kilbride, before it closed down, around 4-5 years ago.

Thornton Suite story :-)

As I may have mentioned before, I know nothing about football
(copyright my brothers) but a little about commerce and a bit more about marketing and communications.

Latterly I think it has been shown that Celtic are batting big-time against the footballing authorities in Scotland and winning subtle but significant victories on specific fronts.

The Manchester riots by the FOD offers an opportunity, pardon the pun, to put clear blue water between us and THEM. Its' been said for a long time that we should ditch the "OF" term and while I understood it in my heart, my head always said that in the corporately small world of scottish sponsorship the numbers just wouldn't stack up.

Now, this may still be the case but if for a moment we see this great club of ours as a "brand" then by associating ourselves with the FOD in the future we risk taking some of their flak and being seen in the same poor light. (Having lived in London for 15 years it drove me crazy having to explain the differences in our values to sceptical cockneys.) We should also take it upon ourselves to differentiate ourselves and demonstrate our different values from them as much as possible. At a corporate communications level it would be a start if the the club dropped its' usage of the "OF" tag and explored separate commercial shirt-sponsorship avenues.

If the FOD continue to export their particular "brand values" around Europe we could soon be tarred with the same brush.

bankiebhoy1

'

Evening chaps etc
Did anyone else notice that, throughout yesterday BBC news 24 was showing the cctv footage with the time/date stamp clearly marked on the bottom left corner of the screen. The first time shown of the attack on the cop was 2217 Hrs. This is clearly nearly 3 whole hours since the failure of the big screen.
Yet both STV and BBC scotland hid the time stamp by cropping the image slightly. They both then, quite deliberately in my view, linked the footage directly to the screen breaking down. I know that a lot of people don't see the news 24 programme and would wrongly believe the keech being spouted by our media outlets.
Kenny Scott, Rangers security chief, is ex Strathclyde Chief Superintendant. He regularly waded in to miscreants in the away section at Celtic Park when he was match commander, now he is taking the blue coin he will be towing the party line.

Can anyone suggest somewhere where I can watch the Motherwell game tomorrow in the Merchant City Area with a 5- year old?
Cheers

Graham Spiers yesterday evening on Radio Snyde said the "R*****s fans blame me for getting rid of the Billy Boys song, I thought it was a despicable song, but the fans keep making up more detestable songs to replace the Billy Boy song"

TBFTL
If you are on.
Did you get your pea and ham soup for lunch?

....pea and ham?
From a chicken?

Sorry

danny Gall, many's a time I tried to watch a Celtic game while out and about with my young children. Experience tells me two things: 1. if you really want to see it, limit it to second half only, provide crisps and buy said 5 year old a Thomas the Tank Engine magazine.
or 2: as it is a huns match do not expose your five year old to such a horror show. You will likely put him/her off football for life and you wil never again get peace to watch the good ghuys!!!

Good luck.

Well, some sort of burd!! (private joke I'm afraid)

is it true sir Dave is trying to buy youtube??

I understand that 6 of the 11 charged already are from Glasgow.

Bain said last night he believed that 'the trouble makers where individuals who do not usually attach themselves to the club'.

Are these individuals PTFC clyde or celtic fans.?

I think not!
As Paul stated in initiating this thread , they first and foremost must admit that the problem exists.

Deafening Silence also from Murray, he had plenty to say for himself last week about the percieved injustices of the fixture congestion.

Sorry Lardo66. Didn't mean to butt into your conversation. It's just every time I hear "pea and ham," I'm reminded of a funny TV advert of years ago for soup.

I thought some of the oldhands might enjoy a wee smile.

Cheers

The Narrowbhoat Tim-

I wholeheartedly agree, the "unspeakable" song is the most offensive thing they have ever sung and the latest- The Famine's Over is not far behind IMHO.

This is not merely carrying on "tradition"- this is pre-meditated and sung purely to offend, and sung by the MAJORITY of them.

With thanks to Celtic minded

A heartfelt tribute from Aiden.

Aiden's tribute

Man, Terry, tears back in my eyes again.

tnt/celtic first, thanks for the response.After I posted, I looked up all the obituaries and saw that Kelman was the guy who was instrumental in getting SHS published. I will also look out for the Linwood stories though being dahn sarf none of us have much of a chance finding it I fear.

Where's that Leckie. He;s still claimed

How about the Evening Times for sheer hunlovin' chutzpah. Their front page is dedicated to the heroic Rangers fan who rescued the fallen policeman from, er, a very dangerous situation. " That guy deserves a medal" said the grateful copper.
And they don't know who the guilty parties are, but they do know that they're not proper Rangers supporters.
Deny deny deny.

For those of you who can face it.This editorial is beyond belief.

Lord Haw Haw himself would have been proud.

Todays Editors comments from the Record

Cadizzy

Do you recall the reference to Linwood in Kelman's 'A Disaffection'? It's when Patrick opens his car door and hears the usual creeking sound and allows himself to imagine that one of the workers at Linwood had got stuck there. His workmates miss him, but assume he has gone to the toilet.

poison at heart of society

Lurgan 53 I felt the same way re the use of yesterdays sad news. It is hard not to think that way - years of experience has made us cynical and with good reason. However, I think we could also say that the sheer volume of good will from all corners demanded the huge news coverage about Tommy Burns' passing.
I thought it notable that Reporting Scotland opened the news this evening with more pictures of rioting Rangers fans. When the dust settles on recent events we can sit back and analyse it all in the cold light of day. Emotions are raw and I feel the best course of action for Celtic supporters is to keep our powder dry for the time being.
One of the reasons Seville was such a success for Celtic (indeed all of our European journies) is because when we play non-scottish teams we tend to forget about Rangers and simply concentrate on supporting our team. As an example, I was taught a salutory lesson a few years ago when I started singing 'If you hate the f'ing rangers clap your hands' while watching a European match in a Belfast bar. A friend of mine put his hand on my shoulder and said 'forget about them, this is about us'. It was a damascene moment for me. I have been trying to forget about them ever since. It makes life so much happier. Love our own team and be indifferent to theirs.
I agree with what you said but I think Tommy Burns would have been able to rise above it and that is perhaps what we should be trying to do for the time being.
Hail Hail Lurgan

Paul

Since you said you missed some of the posts on the previous thread, I think this is worth repeating - 'Rangers Now the England of Scotland' - http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/sport/sport-headlines/rangers-now-the-england-of-scotland-20080516956/

Utterly brilliant!

FIAGOTTPF

Again we have a day where the good ol' Scottish media do their best impersonation of Goebbels.

Propaganda, propaganda, propaganda.........

How tediously obvious. As I write this I have Real Radio on Setanta and the excuses are flying left right and centre. After they have had a full day to corroborate their 'story', they have it down pat - It was all the fault of the police. It's just so predictable!

I managed to watch most of The Sun clip posted earlier and found it to be seriously disturbing. How any right minded individual can try to excuse that in any way is beyond me. Purely on a humane level this is just plain wrong and has to stop.

Nevertheless, as the Scottish media, the SFA, a Conservative party MP and Murry/Bain continue to try to sweep yet more abhorrent behavior under the carpet, I can't help but think that it will happen again and again....

Ewen Cameron on Real Radio - "The Manchester Police HAVE to take some responsibility here".

Hunbelievable.

This idea tht Manchester cannot cope with big events is utter tosh. I was fortunate enough to attend the Champions League final in 2003 at Old Trafford, between Milan and Juventus. These two are not exactly in love with each other, and yet there was not even the merest hint of trouble.

Apart from heavy traffic around the stadium before and after the game, I saw no evidence that Manchester was stressed in any way with coping with a vast number of visitors.

This is about common decency and respect for others and their towns and cities. The vast majority of teams' supporters get that, and generally treat their hosts with due respect. Sadly some don't or wont.

SonsofErin,
According to The Herald, there were only 1000 fans at Ibrox to welcome them home. Imagine their humiliation if they'd trundled glumly round tumbleweedy streets waving at auld wifies.
They made a virtue of a necessity.
In an odd and horrible way the fiendish luck which carried them to the final, made a last, macabre appearance.

dennis47

I noticed the Evening Times conviently ommited what was reported in the English Papers when the policeman stated I don't who he was, he had an english accent and I would like to buy him a few pints. At no time did the policeman said that the person was a R#####s fan.

Radio Snyde "Bonkers" Keevins is now saying that Sur Dodgy Dave is holding his hands up after viewing more footage of the carnage and now admits their fans let themselves down and it wasn't casuals from darn sarf.

Daily Record has now bumped it up to 200,000 in Manchester. Who do you think you are trying to kid Lord Haw Haw????

Beautiful tribute by Aiden McGeady.

If Rangers and their fans with microphones and laptops were to keep quiet, and get their heads down, this would pass soon enough.

But in falling over one another to blame the police and people who aren't really Rangers fans and the city of Manchester, they're making a grave mistake. The police will keep responding and the story will keep running.

Lardo66

Some dessert later as well me hopes

Just going out the door now. Kind of sorry to be going as I feel tonight is shaping up to be a very special CQN occasion.

Aiden's tribute is beautiful. So sincere and all the more laudable for joining in with the fans tributes.

The young man has class.

Narrowboat

Officer Regan said on PM on Radio 4 that he assumed the guy was a Rangers fan. He said: “I can't think of any other reason why he would have been there at that time.”

I think he said the guy had told him he was an army medic.

Smelltheglove;
Absolute disgrace. Who was to blame for the fighting and arrests in and around the bigotdome as they screened the game live on wednesday. Were the scottish police heavy handed? Were they not prepared?
The common denominator wears red white and blue.

I despair for Scotland. The D R's editorial is a disgrace and an embarassment. It wasn't Rangers supporters fault it was Manchesters!!!!! Rangers fans are..."being cast as villains"!!!!!
Astounding, truly astounding.

I have not posted over the last couple of days. I am not as eloquent as many who have. I read the many excellent posts that summed up my feelings at the loss of a great Celtic man (and a great Celticman too).

Has anyone else noticed that Sean South has been silent? Where are you Sean? Too busy laying off your bets in case we win the league?

Dalgetybhoy

I think Sean posted on Wednesday night, offering advance (for most of us) sight of some Press Association copy on what was unfolding. Ronnie Esplin's by-line wasn't on it.

Thebhoywiththewaferthineyes

This editorial is a disgracefull piece of garbage.

I am truly astounded

roberttressell,The Ragged Trousered Philiantropist was your finest hour a book that should be in everyones must read list.

You touched on something that is very important.

It is and always should be about us,forget about them.

Concentrate on the positive thats what Tommy did.

I read something the other day "if your angry your no good to God".

The prize is being a Tim we should all try and live that.

Lads

remember the way Tommy was he did not hate rangers even though he was a Tim through and through a lot us promised to try and live our Life more Tommy like since his passing, If the media want to portray the Manchester mayhem as an avoidable problem caused predominently by the Manchester police let them dont be angered be more Tommy like, have your beliefs pray to God that people can see through the lies Bhoys and I mean lets pray like Tommy did everyday The Scottish media is a disgrace bar Graham Spiers.

Live Life the Tommy way Dont be consumed by hate

For the Record I have dispised Rangers and elements of the Scottish Media I have as much changing to do as anyone and probably more than most but I have vowed to live my Life more Tommy like and thats what I will endevour to do.

Hail Hail to TOMMYBHOY YNWA
HAIL HAIL TO 3 IN A ROW

ROCCOBHOY.

My dear,dear,friend.... Lardo66 @7.04

Thanks for bringing up that very salient point..concerning the discrepency in the amount of arrests and their respective time factors.

This relevation which you have so shrewdly brought to our attention is a telling one.

I myself, remember rather vividly, the announcement reporting the number of arrests that were made,just after the initial confrontations with the Police, subsequent, to the stalling of the Big Screen...that the number of fans arrested,by the local Bobbies, in the resulting fracas with the G.A.s Followers....was an Insignificant one... in the Single digits,in fact.

However...

And this is proved conclusively by your revelations...

MANY hours, later...the number of G.A. fans actually arrested, pertaining to the crowd's Hooligan behaviour, had now increased markedly, many times...to 42!

Doh!

The Cover-up, by the Loyal Journalists, is quite flagrant,in as much as they HAD blamed the SOLE CAUSE of the G.A.s eruption in uncontrollable,anger...(and an understandable one,at that)... on the WRATH that had naturally overwhelmed the G.A. fans,as a result of the Frustration caused by the Big Screen Break-Down...and in such a Tantalizing fashion.

The 64 Dollar question is this...

What is the explanation for The final number of arrests,which proves ineluctably, that the G.A. fans were very much STILL IN A RIOTOUS MOOD, many HOURS AFTER... the MATCH HAD FINISHED?

Again, we are being fed...PABLUM... and by the Spoonful...by the gentlemen of the Press.

Kojo.
yer pal..who likes yer style

I thought I noticed Sean South posting a couple of days ago, but you know it doesn't matter.

Today, when I think of the squabbles that have gone on here, often involving SS, and beleive me I've had a go too, I feel a wee bit sad.

I'm sure a certain gentleman ( gentle man) would have told us to wind our necks in a bit and just enjoy the football.

"Just go out there, support your team, make good friends and get on with your lives."

That's going to live with me a long time.

The Record's editorial is a bag o p*sh.
That's because Murray has made it clear the way he wants this whole sorry mess to be portrayed by this particular branch of the Scottish media.

By the way, this is not angry hyperbole on my part.

They really are all over the palce on this one.

David Murray says those responsible will be dealt with - yet Bain saud that they were not Rangers fans!

The trouble was because of a broken screen - yet the CCTV of rioting fans is timed at after 10pm!

It was all English casuals - yet video shows them wearing Rangers gear and having Scottish accents!

Oh and Steven Purcell apologises on behalf of Glasgow - my city. Glasgwegians did not cause the trouble, Councillor, Rangers fans did.

When will that vile club admit it has a problem? Murray is like the alcoholic with bottles hidden in every drawer: in deep denial.

Inkybhoy

It's a miracle you can put up with it.

They must know they would be better saying nothing or beating their breast for a day before getting right behind their team tomorrow again.

Yours cannot be the only in-house craw in which this garbage has stuck.

What a fiasco.

Radio 4 just announced that if Manchester United win in Moscow on Wednesday, a planned parade in Manchester on Thursday will not now go ahead.