Frustration for Celtic in Manchester

A fair summary of the game (although no mention of offsides) from todays manchester evening news - BTW no mention of any trouble !!!

http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/sport/football/manchester_united/s/1073887_united_3_celtic_0

PAul

Any prizes for three 1st places in a row

Podium schmodium.

Goals aside, the two moments that had me kicking the coffee table in disgust. Naka kicks a corner straight into the side netting when corners are like gold dust. And Naylor in acres of space, plenty of time to look up and pick out a striker with a simple cross, inexplicably balloons the cross high and wide. Two moments that could have created a goal scoring opportunity utterly wasted completely needlessly.

Morning all -

In the end we were well beaten but if the first two goals had been disallowed then Celtic's confidence would have been up and seeds of doubt sown in mancunian hearts. I have said it for years - the mancs are spawnier than the darnel.

Anyway we have to get ourselves back up for the imminent and more important battles ahead.

WSNBM
G

Nigel

Glad to see you got the wheel back on the jalopy

Token Tim

We should have a Man City - richest club in the world for them when they come to CP ha ha,

Yeah I think its weird about their reaction to the fields being more than YNWA.

The breaks did definitley go against us. But regardless of this Celtic and GS need to face reality with regards some of our players. thomthethim,

The breaks did definitley go against us. But regardless of this Celtic and GS need to face reality with regards some of our players.

This CL campaign has remninded me of MON'S final campaign when the team was in the need of some surgery. Ultimately that season it cost us the league as well.

Our team at present does not require that drastic a shake up, but regardless of the group we were drawn in, I think everybody knew that we were going to struggle regardless the opposition. In the past two years we went in with the same defence that played Man U two years ago pratically (Loovens exception). Is it better that it was then? To me it is a no and the very same players standards have dropped, while one player in particular has grown and shown he could make the step up.

Did Gary Caldwell look comfortable at that level last night? Answer would be a resounding yes. The difference in the boy since the middle of March has been unbelievable. Could we honestly say that about Wilson, McManus and Naylor? That's what i would judge it on. Could we get better or promote better. I think we could.

Regardless though, we just have to hold our hands up and say that some opposition are better.

I'll quickly address my viewpoint on the naylor situation... I can sortoff understand wgs sticking up for a player when due to the transfer window he cant really do anything about him.. but how many transfer windows has it / will it take for him to do something about it

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/c/celtic/7678973.stm

I dont even think in defensive terms he very good but on the attacking front he cant even float a ball in accurately... never mind wip it in.

I firmly believe that at the end of this season, as a club/community we need to have a rank and file assessment of where we are/want to be/practically get there.

I think Gordons problem it that he has never won over a fair few celtic fans and ultimately probably neve will, in many peoples eyes we lost a brand new Bentley Continental V8 (Yes its expensive and has its limits/bad days but even one want it) for a ex-display discounted diesel VW Phaeton (yes its more practical, economical but you'll never love it). This means that when it loses it relaibilty (ie doesnt get the basics right) you dont forgive it the way you would say an alpha.

Which is why MON who also had his bad days(the 5-1 game and many away in europe) they dont outdo the good times, yet strachans apparent preparation for artmedia,clyde and rangers will always come to the front yet the 3 in a row and last 16 dont get mentioned.

And then there is ourselves... I think we need to assess whether its fair to look back at the euro games over say the last eight years against blackburn/liverpool/man u and wonder if we are moving back or forward... given the financial systems these are under ... is it not just a case of these are moving forward faster

and then there are the basics.... fitness...athelticism...the balance of size in the team...technique... tactics... ahve they improved?

WG

In real life - did you get tickets down there.

When we heard that Wio "was injured" the alarm bells started ringing here - sneaky sneaky move by Swalex - shows where his priorities lie

Henriks,

that is the difference at the CL level my friend. As with big Samaras' chance in Villareal, when you get the chance to have a shot, put a cross in, take free-kicks etc, because of the gulf in class we HAVE to take these chances when they come, otherwise we will have no chance because the Rooney's/Berbatov's etc of the top teams do NOT miss when handed their chance regardless of the circumstances that lead up to their chance!

HAIL! HAIL!
Token

I said it last night and now, with very nearly four hours of sleep to ensure my head is clear, I'll say it again: our players gave everything they could. I'm very proud of them, and proud to be a Celtic supporter.

Hail Hail and that

Not had time to read all the comments but the deletion of the word 'offside' from match reports is part of the revisionist policy to keep the smaller clubs like us in our place and promote the chauvinism of English football.

We can't allow this defeat to get us down, a win against Hibs is a must. We know we're capable of it, we just need to make sure we do it.

Hail Hail and that

WGS said
"Did Gary Caldwell look comfortable at that level last night? Answer would be a resounding yes. The difference in the boy since the middle of March has been unbelievable. Could we honestly say that about Wilson, McManus and Naylor? That's what i would judge it on. Could we get better or promote better. I think we could."

I agree re Caldwell and I thought McManus in part did ok. Someone mentioned Fletcher looked much better last night by being surrounded by better players. Therein lays the case for adding to the defensive personnel as there are clearly a few of them not top notch even for our natural level in the SPL.

10am and eventually Sky show the offside goals and admit both were offside

Did the Mancs not also get a legit goal [wrongly ]chalked off for offside?

Unfortunately we need to take a good hard look at ourselves first, and improve the areas of the team we can influence. A few posters last night commented on their fitness level as against ours, which perplexes me, given the money we have spent on the sports science side and our employing a manager who places so much emphasis on fitness and attitude in training.

jinkysboy -

I didn't, I watched the game in the pub with my dad and sister. My son and his mate got tickets for £50 each so the trip was worthwhile. I had a great time and a good laugh - three generations of Celtic-daft characters enjoying themselves win, lose or draw. The family that plays together......

I'll return to TGITW tomorrow, give people time to get OT out their systems.

Cheers, mate

WBG

I agree with Winningemmell about the chauvinism, in the strict sense, in English football. And in spite of what many argue, it's not just the media. There was an audible arrogance from large elements of the Manchester United support's choice of chant last night, which came as no surprise.

For the first time ever, my children have shed tears over football, fearful of the teasing they face from wee weans that have been telling them all week that Celtic are rubbish.

I have asked them to be gracious and to try to accept defeat graciously, but to stand up for Celtic, for example by asking their wee tormentors if they think for a second Celtic wouldn't pose more of a threat if we were allowed an overdraft of £700 million. I'm not sure if they got that bit of the argument though.

Another reckless tackle on the periphery of our area and we're 2-down. As with Senna vs. Villareal, it's the same old story for the willfully ignorant tackling ethos Celtic have in the CL. The hame was not over at 1-0.

Man Utd. are bigger and better due to their financial position, but this might also be their downfall. I have faith in Celtic's fiscal management, even if it's at the expense of CL victories. Slowly, slowly, catch the monkey.

TT - If an amateur player did what Lee Naylor did last night he'd be rollicked. We're not talking about someone running at pace with a defender breathing down his neck as he tries to cross the ball. We're talking about a player STANDING, looking into the box, no one pressing him, and he sends the ball high and wide !

And as for Naka putting a corner straight into the side netting, sorry, but just not good enough at any level never mind CL level.

That aside, no real surprise last night. I feared a 4-0 so I suppose I'm relieved it wasn't that.

dontbratt -

yes they did indeed, three wrongs don't make a right.

WG

It was of course a rash challenge from Scott Brown, who was given one of the hardest tasks of his career in taking on the Manchester United midfield, however Boruc has to take a serious look at his own part in it. I'm not sure pushing Ronaldo's free kick wide was amongst his toughest challenges.

He is performing a long way below the expectations I have of him.

Onwards to Hibs now, where we will need to score 2 after Riordan scores, and then Hearts before we put our home record on the line again.

Jinkysboy, the honour is a prize in itself.

WGS, agree that Caldwell has improved when the others have not.

BhoyFromTheCountyHell, I have been heard muttering that the Hibs game is the biggest game of the week for some days now.

DBBIA, I believe they did, but by then the game was over as a contest, although I am not disputing the better team won.

wg- modern linesmen is rubbish.

really disappointed in the 2 offisde goals and really disappointed in our terrible 2nd half performance...but we need to pick ourselves up - 3 points are vital against the Hibees.

Has Gary Caldwell signed an extension yet? He'll be able to talk to clubs in Jan as things stand, I think?

test

Frustration is the right word. Frustration that we contain them for 30 mins then loose a sloppy goal. Yes they looked great but hadnt created very much. Frusration that even when we got naylor wide, and he didnt hit all bad crosses, there was no JVoH or Sami on the end. Frustration with a second clearly offside. Frustration that we knew despite all the bad luck etc, they were always the better side, and in large part , a class apart. Frustration with Naka and Aidie ( as ever) not really producing on the major stage.
But to be frank, I'd rather get our bad luck and injuries out of the way before the second legs against Villareal and AAB. They are the crunch 2. The Man U games are a good night out, give it a go, watch some real worldclas players, eg Rooney, but no epxectation of points. And sticking with the frankness, the V and AAB games are about securing the UEFA spot, not CL knockout. I kept an eye on Villareal v AAB and for a time, I was seriously concerned about dropping a point behind ( or worse) Aalborg. Even when it went 4-3, it was still possible.
Nice night out, Saturday is of much more immediate concern and a tired and pretty despondent team versus Fletcher and the return of Riordan. John

agree with Paul, here GC was superb last night in that role. Its not required for the spl though.

Anyone think wgs would deploy that setup in the spl?

Lubo1977

The last ten minutes, when I know it no longer mattered, was not a poor performance from the Bhoys. The heads were up, there were bodies flooding forward, people tried things and, as in the move that Paul Hartley nearly got on the end of, some of the football was a joy to watch.

I may be clutching at straws, but that was definitely a better finish to the game that we have seen in previous 3-0 away defeats.

Henriks,

I must admit to going off my head at that particular moment with mr naylor, much to the amusement of some of the mancs around me, who probably did not understand a word I roared out with the exception of the odd expletive or 3!

However, galling as it is, that at times we cant master the basics, as I posted in the early hours of this morning on my return, we were beaten by a far superior team and we can have no real shame in that defeat.

Head slightly bowed, but spirit far from broken!

Bring on the Hibees (and the CQN 5's!)!

HAIL! HAIL!
Token

Celtic_First,

The overall 2nd half performance was very poor - I honestly cant call it any other way. It doesnt matter if the team you are playing is worth £5, £50M or £50Bn....it shouldn't affect your basic ability to pass a ball 10 yards to a team mate, cross a ball or control a ball. We were poor at all these things for most of the 2nd half and you can't blame the value of the Man Utd team for that.

Still, onwards and upwards - need to get the morale up for Hibs as the SPL is priority.

I've too much on my plate to spend much time here today. But again Italiaboy has been on this morning referring to his embarrassment. And so I feel compelled to challenge him again.

Frustation, aye. Disappointment, aye. Hurt, aye and maybe even anger. I feel them all. But embarrassment? Never. I have never felt embarrassed by Celtic FC or of my support.

Italiaboy feels shame. This I don't understand and it's an emotion for me that seems to be the polar extreme of everything we stand for. I'm sorry you feel that way Italiaboy and I feel somewhat relieved that it's an emotion I'll not have to deal with as Celtic supporter.

C'MON THE HOOPS!

Jaztim, I would deploy Caldwell in that role in the SPL. His ability to bring the ball forward with his head up, looking for an opening, is key and something we have been missing.

Apologies for interrupting the Old Trafford post mortem, which I'm sure will run and run, I've a question going back to the recent songs debate, did this question come up - namely, if the club officially asks our supporters not to sing certain songs, and said supporters ignore this request and carry on singing the offending songs, are these persons still supporters or are they now ex-supporters or rather 'customers' who have paid there gate money and chose to sing whatever they like? In essence if you 'support' some one or some thing you will do as they ask surely - or opt out of supporting them? It must have come up - there are pages and pages of differing views which I haven't had the time to read thru.

On the songs debate, our 'friends' on FF just get dafter and dafter....God help us if this guy is ever asked to define whats offensive or not.

Earl of Leven
True Blue Join Date: 07-08-2006
Posts: 18,715

I assume 'The Soldier Song' will be ignored?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Another broom required perhaps? Or maybe just not mentioned? "What song? Nope, never heard anything...let's have a minute's applause."

Our media are scum, and UEFA are spineless dolts.

Paul (or whomever else is helping with the 5s),

Do you have or can you post a link to the charity involved with the 5s on Sat? (Glasgow The Caring City I believe?)

A couple of the Bhoys from my team have asked for links as they are trying to get supplies from their respective companies and need some more info to give to their bosses.

A name and contact number might be helpful as well if possible.

Thanks in advance,
HAIL! HAIL!
Token

But if we play GC in midfield it leaves a GC shaped hole in the back four.

Even I concede he has been our best defender this season, after a Telferesque improvement, but our defence is shipping SPL goals at an alarming rate. It would leave Mcmanus with presumably either Loovens or O'dea.

Even Nesta and Cannavaro would struggle given the lack of protection on the flanks.

Mcgraininspain

Never been embarrassed to be a Celt and never will.

Im proud to be a supporter along with the many thousands who take it on the chin then pick ourselves and our team (who need us now).

Defeat - I cant handle it at tiddlywinks never mind the Celtic - but what makes us special and above our neighbours is the love of our club and all it stands for and above all else faith that will never be embarrassed.

Keep the faith

'Even Nesta and Cannavaro would struggle given the lack of protection on the flanks'

BULLSEYE!

dontbratt -

I intimated to my dad that the left hand side of our defensive half was like The Curragh of Kildare, miles and miles of flat greenery with not a soul in sight to spoil the view. Excruciating....... but I love them more today than I did yesterday.

WG

TMC- are we in agreement again? This is deeply worrying.

Are you going to the 5s?

Agree that the Caudalele experiment worked but can we afford to loose him at the back?

I fear not.

Winningemmell,

Like you as a family.

I watched the game with Kevin and his wife Angela and my grandchildren, Aiden and Luke, although, he did't last the pace, hre was as;eep before the first goal.

We played, laughed and cried together, and phoned P67 every time they scored an offside goal.

A great night, thouroughly enjoyed.

STAND UP FOR THE CHAMPIONS,

Martin.

Paul - I think after GC was signed we speculated that he could have been brought in as Lenny's replacement.
He hasn't been played in midfield until last night and has been by far our best defender this year.
I don't agree with you about keeping him there while we have obvious weaknesses in defence and Mark Crosas available. GC played well last night, but there were times when he dwelt too long on the ball when a quick forward pass was required. Crosas would have moved the ball faster and linked with our attacking players better.

With a stronger defence, then I can see the obvious benefits of a Caldwell/Crosas/Brown centre mid for Euro games and Glasgow derbies.
GC's clear improvement gives us options and the manager should be congratulated for his part in the player's development. PL - get him signed up now.

TTTT

The day after a defeat - any defeat - is never a good time to criticise individuals.

All I will say is this - if PL and GS do not have a Left Back lined up for the first day of the window then they are not watching the same game as the rest of us.

If they havent started to look by now (which would not appear to be the case)they have 10 weeks until January.

Paul67

Would you play Caldwell in that position before Crosas? - not sure the team has space for them both and I'd play Crosas there first (although I agree GC had a good game last night)

PS Do you know the latest position re: GC's contract? Wouldn't want to lose him just as he's becoming a right good player for us!

WG- for you and your dad- on a clear day you can see Lee Naylor

Re: lef back - did anyone else hear rumours about Sylvinho earlier this week?

Martin42 -

Defeat can never defeat us, we always live to fight another day.

WG

DBBIA

I think I've used an almost identical comparison when defending McManus before.

I'm not making Saturday, I've still to thaw out from the last CQN 5s!

I thought our bhoys done well last night. If the officiating was any good and we had hung on for a bit longer we might have been in with a marginal chance of sneaking a point. From that perspective I seen it as good as a performance as the away tie at Villa Real.

My only disappointment was that I thought the players looked spooked. I reckon this is more to do with losing our physical presence through injury than facing up to the European Champions at home in front of 75,000 and cameras etc. Especially in defence and this is the only part of the game where we didn´t do ourselves justice if our lack of physical strikers can be excused.

WGS observation that we didn´t impose anything on the game in the first 10 minutes and how he set us up to play with the resources at his disposal makes me admire his knowledge and ability even more.

Last night with having little presence up front I thought we done ok. Long term we have have a glaring deficiency in the full back areas imho. I know WGS raves about Wilson but he and Naylor are not physically intimidating enough at CL level and have been targeted by Rangers, Villa Real and Man U. this season so far and over this issue we cannot be surprised.

We really need to finally address this issue its been left for too long. It can be argued that the centre backs are "learning" and that progress has been made. The same with Mc Geady, Brown, Mc Donald. Boruc, JVOH and Nakamura are all class acts but in the full back area I dont believe that we can make that claim. That they are learning and improving.

Our financial policy and prudency is a fact of life. Andreas Hinkel needs to step up to the plate quickly. Time is running out for him and a quality left back needs recruited. Now where have I heard that argument before?

As for WGS assessment of his players and squad I admire his brutal honesty. Thats what HIS players need to hear. I thought they done extremely well last night but although the gap cannot be bridged we need to be patient with developing players but the management team and the board need to be honest with regards addressing long term issues within the squad.

We dont want to just be in the rarefied atmosphere of the CL but we want to be able to at least compete. I feel that we have went backwards in this respect. I´m thinking more Aalborg than Ma U here. 2 last 16 successive CL campaigns has whetted the appetite but if MON said about the EPL that standing still is going backwards then the same has to be applied to the CL.

We cannot compete with a team that are the current EC, even though the likes of Ferdinand, Giggs, Scholes, Hargreaves, Brown did not feature hence why it makes it important that we improve our recruitment policy. A better balanced more physically intimidating squad is needed and we are not quite there yet. Too many hits and misses and too many diminutive players.

As WGS said that´s how far our players need to go if they want success at that level and that´s not a realistic possibility. I value the wee man and hope that experiencing that level of frustration does not make him think that he cannot do much more with us. He definitely can. He could do with some extra help though from his players Donati, Hinkel, Balde even and the recruitment must improve.

The away support last night was magnificent. I found myself becoming more intrigued in what they were up too rather than what we were up to on the park. Well done each and every one of you.

Hail Hail

For the first time in a long time I gave up reading CQN last night. Why? Because of the absurd negativity from some posters. Anyone reading would have thought we had been beaten by an amateur team, not by the best team in the world. And with an injury weakened side too.

Embarrassment? Shame? The Board's fault? Get a grip.

We were up against a much better side assembled at prices we can only dream of emulating. We held them for half an hour, and I don't think they had a shot on target until the first "goal". That changed the game, giving them confidence and we looked rattled for the remainder of the first half.

In the second we were overpowered; they controlled the game. And yes, heads went down, but our players stood up and tried to get back into the game. And the fans were magnificent.

Caldwell was superb, McManus stood up to everything thrown at him by some of the world's best and Brown never stopped chasing and harrying.

A disappointing result, but to be realistic not a shock. And I am proud of the team and the fans for their efforts.

Back to domestic action now and six points against the Edinburgh clubs is what is required now. With two top strikers out it is time for others to score the gaols for us.

In the gaol that held Mc,,,,,, (oops better not go there again!!)

Lubo

Its more than a rumour - Silvinho has said an approach has been made and he is interested.

I think I put the link on before but heres the one that mentions the Suarez loan and also a link within it to Silvinho

http://www.skysports.com/story/0,19528,11095_4360443,00.html

Paul67

How about achieving a goal, given we are the only team in the competition not to have scored?

I agree that Caldwell done pretty well overall probably more than Hartley would of but yet again so many of our players are exposed. Wilson just offers nothing in Euro games and panics anytime he is closed down and Naka plays for one reason only - possibility of a free kick. The passing was not as good as it should of been as the players are not good enough to do it ON THAT STAGE.

The problem was Loovens looks painfully slow and seems to be able to get close to a player but rarely block anything

Our best chance of being able to compete at this level again will have to come from UEFA/FIFA.

I can't see Platini allowing English teams to make up 3 of the 4 CL semi finalists for too long.
Change will happen either by limiting the number of teams or allowing teams from the same country to play each other.
Initiatives regarding club debt levels could also come into play.

Unfortunately at the present time money wins. Sometimes a team like Porto will surprise everyone but look at the players they gathered to achieve this.
Most went on to perform in the top leagues for top teams.

We need to remember that games like last night are similar to Celtic against St Mirren.

Ther worrying thing for me last night was Aalbourg. How the hell did they manage 3 goals?
At the start of the group stage I thought 3rd was probable, now it is only a possibility.

Any news on Crosas and Hinkle's injuries?

A thought from last night.

Its going to be a great night the night we win away in the CL, looking forward to it.

Token Tim, look here for specific information, Football4Life and here for information on Glasgow the Caring City

TTTT, that’s right, we did discuss that back then. I noticed him holding onto the ball longer than he should have, but I also noticed the lack of movement ahead of him.

lubo1977, heard nothing on his contract but I would have him playing holding mid against Hibs and take it from there.

Antsman, hmmm. A goal would be an excellent idea.

Awe Naw

Regards your "spooked" comment

I watched the team in the tunnel and at the line up for the CL anthem and thought there was a distinct lack of confidence in them and possibly overawed by the team / individuals they were standing next to.

Lee Naylor - Ronaldo , Loovens - Rooney, Wilson - Nani, Even THG seemed below par on confidence.

But look again at the comparisons above and its understandable as we all know these guys would have a market value of 10% of their opponents. Overawed.

Much as I love Naka, these occasions do tend to pass him by, regardless of his stunning free kicks when he gets the chance. Couldn't believe his first dead ball at our first corner, a bit of a passenger I'm sorry to say. I actually thought Nayls didn't have too bad a game in the first half but he reverted to type in the second. Thought Loovens was cumbersome and could've made the first offside goal a bit more obvious by stepping up. GARY CALDWELL now there's a captain, enough said! Although McManus did reasonably well. We were well beaten by a side who, apart from Ronaldo are all willing to to the dirty work as well, all over the pitch. Total football?? I'd like to see the stats on miles covered by their midfielders and forwards against ours, a massive difference I would expect. Pace, strength and skill in abundance and probably only in second gear.

Well done all you vociferous BHOYS who were at the game, you certainly kept my spirits up.

How some on here can villify Gordon Strachan on his selection are obviously guys with great hindsight!! Michael Collins?

Anyway, Eufa Cup it is after we get this monkey off our back against the not so great Danes.

Hopefully out of our system once we deal with Hibs.

Superb Paul Shun

Lets crack on and win 4 in a row whilst trying to go as far as we possibly can in the Uefa Cup (if thats what happens)

Gary Caldwell was outstanding, yes he gave to ball away more than once, but that was only due to the fact he was also trying to be our playmaker and making things happen

Respect to Gary Caldwell

this guy deserves a fair crack of the whip
I have always thought he was excellent and he has been outstanding for ages now

time to give respect where it is due

Allgreen

I watched the Villareal v Aalborg highlights today as I wondered how they could score three goals..

It looked like

* Villareal "underestimated" their ability to score and played a more open formation leaving gaps at the back

* When the chances came their way Aalborg took them - unlike Sammi at 0-0.

Aalborg will be in an all or nothing situation when they play us - I suspect we will be too. They will have a go at us but Im still confident that if we have JVOH, Sammi and Crosas back and WGS gets his tactics right and we dont get the bad decisions like before we will win away - at last.

Paul,

That's perfect.
Thanks

HAIL! HAIL!
Token

Just had the usual mocking email from Billy Blue nose in the office. One of the attachments is Celtics 'Hall of Shame' which shows the scores and badges of clubs that we've failed to beat on our CL travels. When I pointed out that Id rather have our version of a hall of shame than their version (Riots, stabbings, using the streets as toilets, mass arrests, and signing racists songs) he's been strangely quiet...

Cold light of day thoughts - who knows where the game would have gone if the first two hadn't stood, however dwelling on that doesn't help. I agree Caldwell was a bit of a hero and I would consider keeping him there. McManus also had a good game - how must you feel at CB when huge gaps appear to left and right as the backs are awol. Loovens - jury's oot!

Midfield and up front was pretty tepid, as someone has already mentioned we are now the only team in the group without a goal.

We can and will play better, however my main concern is with the basics:

A Man U sequence of play could be described as Receive - Move or pass

A Celtic sequence of play was (too often) Receive- Take a touch (ball squirts 2 or 3 yards) - control the ball - look up- turn from side to side - move or pass (too often to nowhere or to the opposition)

The extra steps cost time and fluidity giving the opposition time to gather

The above analysis should be burned on our coaching board - the basics don't cost millions.

We need to bounce back very quickly as the Hibs game could be pivotal - I'm sure we will.

Hail hail

After the 2nd goal it was painful to watch last night. We were so heavily out classed.

The players gave their all but individually and collectively we were miles off them - hundreds of millions of pounds off them to be more precise.

I do think Naylor gets too much criticism during games I understand the fans frustration - I probably vent mine too often at games as well - but the lad is trying to play to his best week in week out. Its not his fault no one better has been brought in - so we best get behind him and pray common sense kicks in during the next transfer window.

My Christmas list

4 in a row, a CL away win and a UEFA cup run.

and a hat-trick for Aiden at the zoo if you can Santa

The Angry Drunk.

Henrik's Sombrero,

Well said.

You could also point out that all of the teams that have beaten us away from home, we have beaten them at Parkhead. The only exception being Bayern Munich. Barca, AC, Juve, Man U and Porto have all crumbled at Parkhead and we beat Liverpool at Anfield.

Look at the Champions League winners over the past 6 years:

2008: Man U
2007: AC MIlan
2006: Barcelona
2005: Liverpool
2004: Porto
2003: AC Milan

We have beaten them all at Parkhead. Someone else said that, despite the considerable headstart Rangers had over us in the 90s we are only three points behind them in overall points won in the Champions League group stages.

Nothing to be ashamed of in there!

Craiginho

Stand up for the champions CSC

WGS,

Thank you for your thoughtful response to my rather ill mannered post to you last night.

My point was that, on the night, they were almost unplayable and that no matter ho we had on the field, we would still have been beaten.

At best, we may have secured a Barca type, heroic performance, had they not benefited from the two bad decisions.

Let's hope the financial collapse visits those EPL monster clubs.

Cheers

Craigenho - Is that points tally a fact or a rumour ? I'd love to be able to use that one if its true. We will hopefully overtake them this season if thats the case.

Last night was an honest performance from the Celts.
Ultimately not good enough but we are not a spoiling team.

We are physically inferior to all opponents we come up against therefore it's very difficult to stop them playing. Even more so last night with Jan and Samaras out. Accommodating Caldwell, McManus and Loovens in the starting line up is a good move by Strachan and I hope this continues.

Martin O'Neill's teams were better equiped to compete physically but still failed in the CL although managed to do it successfully in the UEFA Cup.

Because of the present sides lack of physical presence I doubt if we would be able to compete as well even in the UEFA Cup competition.

One more thing take a look at the English teams results in the Champions League they are destroying every team they come up against.

It's not just us that have fallen miles behind the elite of English football.

Paul67

Have to agree regarding Caldwell. I thought he was immense last night (Marcos Senna-like). He has to be given the chance to make the holding midfield role his own.

Unfortunately he was the only Celtic player that didn't look completely out of his depth against the Man Utd players...and I include the much-hyped McGeady and Nakamura in that.

If Aiden was thinking of a move south, perhaps the gulf in class last night and his own inability to make an impact on the game will have given him food for thought.

A major concern I have is over the general fitness of the players.Most of them are not blessed with natural athleticism which I think is an absolute given these days in order to compete at this level.The lack of physical conditioning of Boruc,MacDonald and now Hartley is unacceptable if we are to be competitive in Europe.Even Mark Wilson appears to have lost a yard of pace.Paul who is our fitness coach and what is he doing? This is a problem that you just would not see at Arsenal,Man Utd or Liverpool for example.

Henrik's Sombrero,

I'll need to check it out at lunchtime as I could do with the ammunition as well! But I'm sure I read it somewhere.

Another interesting one is that Rangers have never beaten a Pot 1 seed in the Champions League. They also hold the record Champions defeat for a Scottish Club 4-0 H to Juve and A to Ajax.

Craiginho

Statto CSC

Lennondinho18, the league is all important as ever, but a win in Denmark and Uefa Cup football will suit me fine.

nakamura-san, yes, Gary would be able to influence games more from central mid than centre half.

We in the away section were great lastnight - singing constantly, not a hint of trouble even when it seemed Sir Ian Blair had been appointed to Greater Manchester when they blundered their "keep the away support in the ground" strategy. However, despite the singing, a real sense of foreboding permeated the whole support. Rightly so, and I suppose it was naieve to think Operation CLAW had any prospect of being fulfilled lastnight.

But here's the bigger picture - even if we signed a left back, we will always struggle against this type of opponent - rich (in terms of quality of players and their price tags) and playing in a league of comparable opponents. The Euro win by Porto a few seasons ago marked a watershed - I venture that in the current format of the CL and the present structure of football finance, no team outwith England or Spain will win the Champions League.

Some may disagree with this (and I accept that financial circumstances may change, particularly for say the Italian teams). But where does it leave us?

Imagine, we win the league and qualify for the CL next season. Apart from the money, what's the point? I doubt if anyone would get too excited unless we drew a team we've not met - such as Real Madrid or Arsenal. But that's only because it is someone different and we might just spring a surprise.

For me, the CL is rapidly becoming something akin to Alloa drawing Celtic in the CIS cup. A Wasps' fan might conclude that Celtic Park on a Wednesday night when you've little prospect of winning and no prospect of winning the trophy, just isn't worth the bother. For M. Platini, he is charged with ensuring that I view such games as a one-off Scottish cup game where there might , just might be a chance of causing an upset.

Sadly, the globalisation of football is leading to a dulling of the appetite.

Did you know that, out of our 17 away games in the group stages of the Champions league, we have conceded 3 goals in 9 of those matches? Almost 53%.

Anorak CSC.

Since 1996

Rangers have taken 39 pts from a possible 84. 26 at home' 13 away
Percentage 46%.
Of the 33 Chapion League group matches we have taken 40pts from 87.
With the vast majority 93% at home!

Overall Rangers away record is very good compared to ours but our home record is excellent. At the end of the day it doesn't really matter how you collect points just so long as you have enough to get you out of the group one way or another.

Craiginho, Henriks Sombrero

Not sure about Champs League but the overall records in Europe for both Celtic and Rangers is as follows:

Celtic

Competition Pld W D L GF GA
eccc--------131 63 23 45 203 140
ecwc---------38 21 4 13 75 37
ucup---------69 33 13 23 113 67
TOTAL-------238 117 40 81 391 244

Rangers

Competition Pld W D L GF GA
eccc--------147 61 34 52 224 197
ecwc---------54 27 11 16 100 62
ucup---------70 31 19 20 94 70
Total-------271 119 64 88 418 329

Discostu at 12.05

I absolutely agree. As an individual you may not be able to improve your skill level and bring it to a comparable level, but fitness is the exception. Rooney, oft criticised for being "fat", could outrun every Celtic player lastnight. ManU 's desire but more particularly their ability to move into space at speed was impressive. That is something that can be instructed and achieved.

Whereas I recognise that beign without the ball for long periods is demoralising, I think we were not fit enough. The fitness coach and the players should take a look at ManU players or alternatively (especially the strikers) take a look at Henrik at his height - supremely fit and that helped mould him into the player he became.

Craiginho / Henriks

I have not been able to separate Cl from European cup but heres the two clubs official UEFA stats as of today

Celtic FC
Comp Pld W D L GF GA
eccc 131 63 23 45 203 140
ecwc 38 21 4 13 75 37
ucup 69 33 13 23 113 67
eusa 3 1 0 2 2 3
Total 241 118 40 83 393 247

Rangers FC
Comp Pld W D L GF GA
eccc 147 61 34 52 224 197
ecwc 54 27 11 16 100 62
ucup 70 31 19 20 94 70
eusa 0 0 0 0 0 0
Total 271 119 64 88 418 329

Can't say that the result was all that much of a surprise although I had hoped that we would spring a surprise. (Hoped? Get a grip 53. Convinced myself actually)But after the mild disappointment I am now looking forward to travelling over on Saturday for the real big match of the season so far.

Seeing how far Man Utd were in front of us and the gulf between us and so many other clubs makes me realise that maybe we're not as big as others globally.

But in my family we're the biggest. And in my heart.

Standing.

As a daily reader of CQN since the beginning but a very infrequent poster, I make this my first port of call seeking solace from fellow travellers/sufferers.
I have, I hope managed to get logged on as I feel strongly that despite the financial difference the inability to succeed last night, and times previously, is in part due to playing a team formation which on paper shapes up but under fire does not.
Last night we needed energy,Caldwell in the midfield worked well in my view, but I fear the Manager is culpable on 2 counts,1.If "Walter" can convert 2 very average players in Papac and Broadfoot into servicable full backs,and if John O'Shea can play at LB for Man.U why cant our Mgr and staff convert O'Dea into a left back as clearly he is better raw material than any of the three mentioned,sadly Lee Naylor is not the answer some of his efforts to hit the penalty box with crosses, with no pressure, were Glasgow Green standard.
Then we have 2.Naka,of course thanks for 2 years ago,thanks for Killie,and thanks for St Mirren,however we cannot afford to play any team in Europe with someone who does not tackle,or harass,and worst of all cant run,it beggars belief that Gordon has in effect ( again ) put out a 9 man team.
Then we have our Keeper,having cursed the well intentioned and likeable Rab Douglas many times,reaching a crescendo in Seville,I find myself now comparing blunders,in the recent past Arturs open leg policy has lost goals to Kevin Thomson twice ,plus Kaka,in addition his free kick positioning recently has left a lot to be desired.
Now I do know we lots to be grateful for, but his strategy and stance is becoming questionable,you know he is allowed to use his hands but continues to spread his frame hoping for a block,there is no substitute for eye on the ball and go for it with his hands,in my view the first 2 goals, apart from being offside, were preventable thus avoiding the opportunity for incompetent officials to intervene.
His first attempt against a man with an Alice band and gloves was frankly lamentable for a +6 foot athlete,he had no clue where that ball was,the second he couldn't palm the shot to safety as it hit his forearms as he mis-judged the flight of the ball.
OK these things happen but the first priority must be the Manager to analyse these events and resolve,and in his case stop playing teams to justify tranfer spending, or his favourites, and put out teams to do the job.
Until Gordon learns some humility,stops petty vendetta's and plays a team suitable for purpose, then you and I will be faced many more mornings when as soon as you open your eyes 3-0 flashes up in your head,sad I know but that how we are.
Sorry for long note but Organisation is the key,how many times have we been frustrated by average teams,no stars( as recently as Sat. ) yet can frustrate the best of players,if we get the organisation right then having talented players is a bonus,but as previously stated to present a team with predictable failing is like havin 2 men sent off.
Not for me this apologetic attitude that we can never match these teams,thats what the media would have us believe in order to undermine our resolve I have never gone to a game and thought or admitted we would lose. Never drop the guard.
Ps Gordon never answers mail,I know he says he does not do phone in's or Internet locations but based on the leathering he gives that clipboard I'm hoping he can write.
Maybe its in Japanese!! " Absit Invidia " to all readers.

malceye,

great post and hitting the nail on the head.

We need to look at the progress that we making. I think MON was incredibly unlucky not to have qualified for the latter stages of the CL. We haven´t made much progress since then. We rely on our home form but away from home we are abysmal. This is under two managers and many different teams.

It would be nice to sort out the away day hoodoo. I think Steau Bucharest have yet to win at home so there´s a good comparison there that we are not doing too badly against comparative leagues.

We need to be more of a threat on goal. We need to be stronger defensively and mentally when playing away from home. Maybe a run in the UEFA cup would help us prepare better for these challenges for next season but not at the risk of failing to win the SPL.

Hail HAil

Anyone who cares to look back on any of my comments over the past 18 months will know how much I rate Gary Caldwell.

If his contract is up this season I would be delighted to see him extend it and be given the captaincy as part of the deal.

We badly need someone on the park who will give some of the players a reminder of the standards required to be a Celtic player. We have missed this since Lennon left. I believe Caldwell has the confidence to do this. The same confidence that many on here have used like a big stick to beat him with. I refer to the 'He's not as good as he thinks he is' comments that have been used on numerous occasions.

Stephen is a really nice guy. Really nice guys don't always make the best captains. I realise that this could knock his confidence initially but I am sure he would get over it.

Posted yesterday to say whatever the score would still be proud to support the best team in the world bar none,that still stands today.As for the fitness thing,its ability on the ball that makes you look like your chasing shadows and not getting near them,ask any of the guys that post on here that have played at a decent level i think most would back me up on that.
Gerry

A lesson in perspective ?

FACT - Man Utd have better players than us

FACT - In order for us to get something out of last night's game, we needed Man Utd to play very poorly - they didn't

FACT - We needed to have a full squad to chose from to get anything from last night - we didn't have that.

FACT - We needed a bit of luck to get anything from the game - we didn't get that (again)

FACT - We are in a different league from them both geographically and financially.

FACT - They regularly buy world class players for £20M upwards. We buy championshop players, SPL players and fringe players from English foreign leagues. For example, they buy Carrick for £20M, we buy Hartley for £1M. They buy Berbatov for £30M, we buy McDonald for £750K. Do I need to go on?

FACT - We are a huge fish in a small pond. Theoretically, we can be as big if not bigger than Man Utd. The only thing stopping us is the financial constraints we have to contend with by playing in the SPL.

We must break out of this league to realise all of our ambitions and then unlimited potential of this wonderful club.

malceye at 12.17

correct if we cannot compete in ability then we should be able to do so physically.I have thought for seasons now that we do not have genuine pace through the team,it's a major weakness,but my main issue right now is the fact that 3 players were able to take the field in poor physical condition.I'm amazed that we allow this as I would have thought that in this day and age players body fat content etc etc were measured regularly by a fitness coach.I also imagined WGS standards of fitness would demand a greater level of fitness.

What pees' me off more than last nights, and other, results is that we, as a country, are subjected to an unfair double whammy.

We cannot compete with clubs with a reciprocal stature to our own from the big five leagues. Increasingly we are oppressed by compounding geo-hyper-finances. Obscene handouts, from callous TV corporations, resulting in huge, unearned and often undeserving, windfalls to some of the recipients.

It’s okay for the English teams, because the huge unearned income they receive negates the second whammy that we in Scotland have to absorb.

The UK immigration laws on nationals from beyond the European Union.

Other countries, from within the European Union, but not in the ‘big five’ can take a punt on young talent from out with the community, and for very little outlay they can train and coach a youngster to become the finished article and a very saleable asset.

We can’t.

Maybe it is time, if it is within company and European law that Celtic PLC looked to the continent for a subsidiary company, whereby we too, could take maximum advantage of European law. Attract talented youngster to a feeder club then re-assign their place of employment to Lennoxtown whilst still being paid in any which country.

Why should we be one of the few that have to endure the double whammy?

heck i thought ICT outmatched us in strength and pace in certain areas at times

In defence of Shunsuke Nakamura.

When we were down and out against Rangers at Celtic Park, who was the one Celtic player that still wanted the ball, that could still hold the ball and that was still looking to inflict a bit of pain on them?

In Villarreal, who was the one player (until he tired)that looked comfortable holding the ball and who knew that keeping the ball above all was the aim (until he tired)?

His initials are SN.

I think Gordon Strachan has a more forward role in mind for Gary Caldwell as has had it for quite some time. He had an excellent game last night. Hope we get a contract extension sorted out quickly. And as the ORIGINAL member of the Gary Caldwell Appreciation Society I admit to a feeling of smugness about that! To all you non believers out there I also admit to great belief and confidence in Mick - you have been warned. Ditto Skoosh.

But as for Aiden? Don't want to start an all out war ala weekend. As he apparently is our graetest asset I'd consider a transfer and invest the fee.

Celtic_first,

agreed we will miss Naka and we shouldn´t let last nights frustration make us rush to push him out the door. If we can hang onto him until the summer then we should.

lets put europe behind us this year and concentrate on the league, shut of all avenues for rankers to earn any extra money and send them into oblivion.

_______________________________________

I've drawn a line under last night.

Take it on the chin and move on.

Bigger fish to fry.

3 points at home on saturday.

have to agree with Lurgan re: McGeady. I would take the transfer fee no when it is still on offer. I think he does retain potential to improve but he isn't going to achieve that in the SPL. Whether or not he ever reaches his potential, then that is another matter altogether. However, he is not so pivotal to our fortunes.

lurgan53

Just spotted your post re McGeady granted last night was a chance to stand up and show he could perform on this level, i'd argue he didn't, either did brown or naka or maloney or mcdonald or mcmanus or loovens. so a case could be made to cash in on all of them, but would you trust our board to invest the money straight back into the team? even more so would you trust strachan to buy someone that was better?

I've said it once i'll say it again, team 3 is meant to be a prgression surely? I've seen nothing that says we're moving forward on the pitch. For me Naylor yet again showed he is absolutely garbage - no other way to put it he is simply woeful. Hinkel is no better on the other side. Our centre halves are substandard even in our own league! we are a team of midgets and our youth and reserve teams are full of small players, whats happening!! I would've traded all the supposed skill and guile we had last night for guys like sutton, mjallby, lennon, lambert, guys who could get in about a team and show them they were up for a fight.

Regardless of how good Man U were, is it really too much to ask that guys who are paid thousands a week and play with a ball everyday of thier lives to pass a ball to each other and not the opposition!

Our defence is worse than Lionel Hutz attorney at law!!

DD

I do get tired of the English sitting in their Monty Python castle and deriding us in a bad Mancunian accent.
Cowards I say.
I fart in their general direction.

I hope that one day the shock wave from a fluttering butterfly's wing causes the whole smug edifice to collapse in on its self.

Debt handicapping is a must to restore competitiveness to European football. Someone said it was the Epl teams ability to service debt that allowed the gap. The debt Chelsea owe Abramovich is not serviced it is an interest free loan and just how long should the payback period be if all that is being repaid is the interest?

It should not be beyond UEFA to come up with a model based on certain criteria, for example any debt must be capable of being cleared in full from existing income streams over say 5 years.

Under a handicap system before the season starts clubs with excessive debt are handicapped by having points deducted say 1 per every £15m of the difference between the competing teams in the section. The actual figures would have to take existing differences into account but the overall aim would be to disallow excessive borrowings that have no credible repayment plan, even if notional, to be used to purchase and pay players.

I accept that TV money etc will still make a difference but up until Abramovic appeared the CL still was competitive. Some way of returning to a more sustainable system has to be introduced and UEFA need to take the lead

Very poor distribution again from McGeady last night.He just cannot get the right weight on the ball when he tries to pass beyond 20 yards.Also a problem for Brown,constantly over or under hitting the ball,it makes the difference.

A picture speaks more than a thousand words we are told.

When Sutton,Hartson,Thompson and Agathe got their walking papers one of the reasons floated was that they could not adapt to a more rigorous training regime.

We were often reminded of Gordon Strachen`s superb level of fitness as a player.

As Paul Hartly waddled on to the pitch last night I thought if he had kept the beard and added a little grey dye United would have though Chrismas had come early.But then then they probably had come to that conclusion already following the first couple of goals.

Blue Christmas CSC

someone mentioned Lionel Hutz...who broke my cover ?

Oh aye

And is it too much to ask for any...and I mean ANY of our player to have even a hint of a first touch?? naka maybe but apart from that none of them have a first touch! McDonald is the perfect example!

Hoping Riordan doesn't get it right up us on Saturday CSC

DD

any truth to the rumour that Indian scientists consulted Lee Naylor on trajectory problems with their space rocket to the moon?!?

Paul67

An interesting observation on the future role of Gary Caldwell. To some extent I agree, specifically "horses for courses" in games where some dig and physical presence is required in midfield. However, generally I think he has made some great strides in his form over the last months and I would be keen that he continues this in a defence that needs him more than the midfield - I think Crosas has all the traits we are eulogising about re Gary Caldwell. His ability is not in question, but I do think his mobility and speed at the top level for a midfielder are not quite there. For me he looks like a leader, and being a traditionalist, I like centre halves to be captains! Big Mick is as honest and professional as they come, but in my heart of hearts, I do not think he is the long term answer to either being a centre half for Celtic, or captain. In my experience honest endeavour only gets you so far.

Change and progression are generally always a positive move, but make sure your succession planning is correct to allow people to move on. I don't think we are there yet in our defence. Anyway, Gordon Strachan would then be criticised for a lack of ball playing centre half! You cannot win.

We are Celtic and we aspire to compete at this level. Sometimes though it's all about the journey, not the destination.

Well done to those magnificent fans again. Brilliant.

Mon the Hoops

"H"

Anyone think WGS is talking up Man U's performance last night.I think they can play a lot better considering Ronaldo didn't play very well and they were without Ferdinand,Evre,Carrick,Scholes,Giggs,Hargreaves.

I know Im hurting and this will be seen as sour grapes but what about the hypocrisy of the EPL

Two seasons ago they ruled that Tevez and Mascherano should not have been allowed to play for the bubblers because they were owned by an agent and not a FIFA team (or something along those lines)

So who owns Tevez now - not Manure - he is on loan from who - not a team - but some backdoor way of making it legal.

Also Man Utd and many others are spending money that is not theirs on players taking them to the level they are at. Who owns these players - the bank who they are in debt to

I dont own my house - the bank does until I clear the debt.

Its all a sham to keep the EPL teams as the top 4 in europe and UEFA must act soon to stop this farce.

Its only a matter of time before the Italians, Germans etc really start to kick up a storm for Platini and co

Auldheid,

Its interesting that this is now an UEFA problem when it has been complained about by the Germans for years. FYI if Bayern at the end of the season are 1 cent in debt they are thrown out of their league. It is simply not permitted. This is nothing new. BAyern and other German teams complained about this to UEFA for years. UEFA turned a blind eye. Made lots of noises about addressing the situation but effectively done nothing and didn´t want to do anything. During this time the Italians and the Spanish were the mainstays in European football.

So what has changed for UEFA to resurface with this issue ?

The answer is the nationality of the teams involved and their inability to be corrupted. Not the level of Debt as UEFA would have you believe. UEFA´s former under the table paymasters are up in arms about this i.e the Italians and the Spanish

The problem now being that UEFA cannot go against another and far more powerful body the EC if they attempt in anyway to restrict trade. As soon as they attempt to do this then the EC will hammer them and thereby reducing their own influence. Individual government bodies are not allowed to interfere with football but the EC is not an individual governing body. Bosman would never have happened if it wasn´t for the EC much to the chagrin of UEFA.

It is due to this conflict and the desire by all concerned for an even playing field that I believe a world wide soccer franchise that will be able to generate the revenues necessary to maintain and further develope the debt mountainous clubs that the bigger European clubs (not just EPL) will arise.

Whether it´s a legitimised UEFA-FIFA competition and whether we get an invite remains to be seen

Management

Manager Gordon Strachan OBE *

Assistant Manager Garry Pendrey*

First Team Coach Neil Lennon *

Reserve Team Coach Willie McStay*

Reserve Assistant Team Coach Danny McGrain*

Head of Youth Development Chris McCart

Youth Team Coach John McLaughlan

Under 17's Coach Joe McBride

Goalkeeping Coach Jim Blyth *

Goalkeeping Coach Chris Hannah

Goalkeeping Coach Stevie Woods

Defensive Coach Ryan McCann *

Club Doctor Derek McCormack *

Head of Sports Science Gregory Dupont *

Physiotherapist Graham Parsons *

Physiotherapist Gavin McCarthy *

Kit Controller John Clark

Football Development Manager John Park

Chief Scout Ray Clarke

Scout Tommy O'Neill

Again I'm perplexed over the questionable fitness question, given that we're not into November,and Gawd help us ! come next May we could be going for a Quadruple!

The above list is from Wiki [SIMBT] and the ones I've marked with a * should have some input into the conditioning of current or potential first team players. Add in the money spent on Bobby Lennox Town, a fit for purpose built facility to keep our players in the best of condition, and perplexity is multiplied.

Lurgan53
I read the posts the other day when you were in debate re McGeady and I agree with most of what you say. He is not for me the finished article. Why? On many occasions he will beat one man and then another but when attempting to beat the third he will lose the ball and leave us exposed.
I remember Maloney doing the same when playing under MON-he has learned to keep the ball and has improved as a player in recent years. Maybe McGeady still has time on his side.
Bob

celtic fans are praised by manchester police

Newsroom Staff
CELTIC fans have been praised for their behaviour by Manchester police as they provided another positive example to everyone on how to support their team regardless of the result.

Despite the disappointment of losing 3-0 to Manchester United at Old Trafford in the UEFA Champions League, the Celtic support further enhanced their excellent reputation and that of the Club during the visit to Manchester.

Match Commander Superintendent John Graves of Greater Manchester Police said: “I have no doubt that, for those Celtic fans who made the trip to Old Trafford for the Champions League fixture against Manchester United, it was a long and eventful day.

“Whilst I know the result of the game wasn't what Celtic fans would have wanted, the result of the overall event surely was. Any major sporting event is a challenge to police, and a sell-out crowd at one of the nation's largest stadiums for a game between two of Britain's greatest clubs, has to rank amongst the biggest.

“Making such events a success is not just down to the police and the clubs, it’s a responsibility of everyone involved, especially the supporters.

“As the Police Match Commander at Old Trafford, I would like to pass on my thanks to those Celtic fans who came to support their club in the finest traditions of genuine football fans, and ambassadors of Glasgow.

“From a policing and safety perspective, the game was a great success. There were very few incidents and arrests, and nothing that should detract from a great footballing occasion.

“I have to say that Celtic Football Club has every right to be proud of its fans. Those who braved the night in a windy and wet Manchester were a credit to the club.

“I would also like to compliment the Celtic stewards who helped tremendously throughout the game and added great value to the safety operation.

“We have a cliche in Manchester about the eyes of Europe being upon Old Trafford during these massive football games, and this was no exception.

“I believe that Celtic fans did a great deal to enhance not only the club's reputation across Europe, but also their own - well done.”

Having read other poster's comments on last night the overall feeling is that we were beaten by a better team notwithstanding the two offside goals but we wish we had more players on the night that contributed like Gary Caldwell. I fought the temptation to stop watching the game last night but thought it would be a betrayal of my Celtic upbringing so I saw it through. The result doesn't really bother me to a great extent but what I do find concerning is the lack of a first touch and passing skills throughout our squad. I see WGS sribbling on his note pad but what exactly does he do at Lennoxtown to put matters right because his players keep making the same elementary mistakes.

Fair summary Paul67. 100% agree on Caldwell. he has had some good performances of late but last nights performance as sitting mid was the best I have seen him perform yet.

We missed the outball to Sammy though as every ball up field ended up coming back at us straight away. McDonald is not the player for a 1 man up front formation.

A bit of reality T.V. last night though. How I hate reality T.V.

Wilson and Naylors defensive frailties were obvious as I expected last night but their distribution was atrocious and Naylors crossing in particular was shocking.

Back to victory at CP though. I believe.

Can't believe people are actually thinking that punting Aiden would be a good idea. That's reactionary in extremis.

Naylor, however, I can see the logic behind...

maleys bhoy - A lesson is perspective for you

FACT - In order for us to get something out of last night's game, we needed Man Utd to play very poorly - they didn't.
Absolute rubbish -subjective can never be fact, they could of played amazing but missed a barrowload of chanced and/or been the victims of bad officiating just as a starter
FACT - We needed to have a full squad to chose from to get anything from last night - we didn't have that.
See above - Absolute rubbish
FACT - We needed a bit of luck to get anything from the game - we didn't get that (again)
See above - Absolute rubbish
FACT - We are a huge fish in a small pond. Theoretically, we can be as big if not bigger than Man Utd. The only thing stopping us is the financial constraints we have to contend with by playing in the SPL.
Absolute rubbish - Fact and theoretically are a contradiction in terms

paul67 said: I have complained for years about Celtic's central midfield but I thought that Gary Caldwell was outstanding in his new holding role last night. He won tackles and moved forward with the ball, always with his head up looking for options. This was an experiment definitely worth sticking with.

I agree that Caldwell at least tried to play some football, though he was guilty of misplacing as many passes as anyone else. The big problem with continuing this experiment is that it left Glenn Loovens partnering Mick at the big, and he was found wanting.
I'm glad you used the word experiment - as that's exactly what it was. Do you really agree with the manager experimenting by taking our best defender out of defence for possibly the toughest game of our season?
The time for experimenting is against Hamilton (Robson at LB - didn't work but got away with it) or ICT (Loovens at RB - didn't work but we got away with it). Not against Manchester United away in a crucial Champions League match.

If Aiden Mcgeady's sale helps manage the debt he will be sold, just as the ECL money is used to manage the debt, so that we are reduced to fielding a team that looks out of its depth in Europe's premier competition.

cody

Are you saying if Caldwell had played CB last night we'd have won?

Was anybody questioning our fitness when we came from behind to beat Aberdeen a few weeks back?

That's exactly the point.

Was anybody questioning our ability when we skelped Hamilton.

That's exactly the point.

We are both the fittest and technically best fish in our pond. Move to that level and we're nowhere near the requirement, just the same as West Brom weren't on Saturday and Hibs won't be this Saturday.

Which brings me to Caldwell (who didn't exactly ripple out of his Nike gear last night) - he played as a centre half in midfield last night, which is entirely different from a holding midfield player. We will never need the same in Scotland so I hope not to see him there too often.

Celtic fans are praised by Manchester Police

CELTIC fans have been praised for their behaviour by Manchester police as they provided another positive example to everyone on how to support their team regardless of the result.

Despite the disappointment of losing 3-0 to Manchester United at Old Trafford in the UEFA Champions League, the Celtic support further enhanced their excellent reputation and that of the Club during the visit to Manchester.

Match Commander Superintendent John Graves of Greater Manchester Police said: “I have no doubt that, for those Celtic fans who made the trip to Old Trafford for the Champions League fixture against Manchester United, it was a long and eventful day.

“Whilst I know the result of the game wasn't what Celtic fans would have wanted, the result of the overall event surely was. Any major sporting event is a challenge to police, and a sell-out crowd at one of the nation's largest stadiums for a game between two of Britain's greatest clubs, has to rank amongst the biggest.

“Making such events a success is not just down to the police and the clubs, it’s a responsibility of everyone involved, especially the supporters.

“As the Police Match Commander at Old Trafford, I would like to pass on my thanks to those Celtic fans who came to support their club in the finest traditions of genuine football fans, and ambassadors of Glasgow.

“From a policing and safety perspective, the game was a great success. There were very few incidents and arrests, and nothing that should detract from a great footballing occasion.

“I have to say that Celtic Football Club has every right to be proud of its fans. Those who braved the night in a windy and wet Manchester were a credit to the club.

“I would also like to compliment the Celtic stewards who helped tremendously throughout the game and added great value to the safety operation.

“We have a cliche in Manchester about the eyes of Europe being upon Old Trafford during these massive football games, and this was no exception.

“I believe that Celtic fans did a great deal to enhance not only the club's reputation across Europe, but also their own - well done.”

Well done from me to all who attended.

Antsman

Get real we will never be close to being as big as Man Utd.

Sorry for the large its but its definitely wort the read (imho). If your not interested in UEFA and football finances then skip.

From The Times
October 22, 2008
Michel Platini in Champions League fantasy world
Martin Samuel

A couple of opinions that Michel Platini, the Uefa president, did not offer on his recent trip to Liverpool: “If you bring people from America and there is no one from Paris at the club, where is Paris? I think it is not good. I think the Americans should invest in America. And do you want in Grenoble a Japanese man as president with one Bosnian coach and seven African players or four East Europeans? Where is Grenoble in that?”

And a couple of opinions that he did: “If you bring people from Qatar and there is no one from Liverpool or Manchester on the pitch, where is Liverpool or Manchester? It is not good. The Qataris should invest in Qatar. Can we do something against it? I will try. Do you want in Liverpool an Arab sheikh as president with one Brazilian coach and nine or 11 African players? Where is Liverpool in that? We have to make some rules.”

Maybe we misjudge him. Perhaps Platini does travel Europe, urinating on the structure of each domestic league in turn, while never conceding that the most corrupting force is Uefa's own money-spinner, the Champions League. Maybe when he lands at Charles de Gaulle he seizes the opportunity to point out that Paris Saint-Germain are 62.5 per cent owned by an American property investment company, Colony Capital, with Morgan Stanley owning another 33 per cent. Perhaps each time he returns to France he calls a press conference to remind people that Grenoble Foot 38 were bought by a Japanese communications company, Index, in 2004 and have Kazutoshi Watanabe as president, a Bosnian coach and players from Togo, Bulgaria, Tunisia, Algeria, Ivory Coast, Japan and Cameroon, three Serbs and two Moroccans.

Or maybe it is just us. We bad. We wicked. Even the chairman of the FA, Lord PleasedMan of Lunchtime News Bulletin, has contrived to associate English football with everything that is wrong, not just with sport, but with the failing global economy.

But are we so different? A look at the make-up of the 32 teams in the Champions League suggests not. As in England, the competitors largely fall into three categories: new money, often from Eastern Europe, bankrolling new success (as at Chelsea); a blue-chip club, combining established wealth with a traditional powerbase and political clout (as at Arsenal); and a combination of the two, in the form of an influential elite club now owned by wealthy individuals, families or organisations (Manchester United and Liverpool).

Yet when Platini speaks, we are transported to this fantasy world, the golden age of club ownership, a pork butcher in every boardroom, a team brimming with kids from the local council estate.

It is an illusion. Platini talks of English clubs distorting competition as if the Premier League is alone in its financial evolution, yet almost every club in the Champions League are, in their own way, a replica. They are businesses. Businesses aim to eliminate opposition. Uefa is a business, too. Look at the ruthless way the Champions League has attacked the significance of each domestic competition. It would not matter which games the president chose to attend this week, of which club he was a guest. There is not one team in his competition that perfectly fits his debt-free, local identity ideal. See for yourself.

Manchester United v Celtic
Celtic are controlled by Dermot Desmond, an Irish financier, so are foreign owned, fitting the third model, that of a traditional powerhouse attracting new investment. Desmond's board has reduced debt but in Celtic's first two Champions League matches this season six of the 13 starting players were foreign.

Villarreal v Aalborg
Villarreal did not grow organically. They were a small, provincial club until they attracted the patronage of a ceramic tile magnate, Fernando Roig Alfonso, who became the majority shareholder in 1997. Before this, the club had won no significant honours and had never played in La Liga or Europe. Aalborg are run by Per Sondergaard Pedersen, an international property developer. Both clubs have foreign managers.

Bayern Munich v Fiorentina
Bayern are the seventh-richest club in the world so fit model two and despite claims of impoverishment spent roughly £70 million on Luca Toni, Franck Ribéry and Miroslav Klose to win the Bundesliga last season. Fiorentina went to the wall in 2002 and reformed in Serie C2, won promotion, skipped Serie C1 because Italian football is like that and were back in Serie A by 2004. In 2006 they were relegated over match-fixing but were reinstated. They are owned by Diego Della Valle, who has used football to further his political ambitions.

Steaua Bucharest v Lyons
Steaua are controlled by George Becali, the richest man in Romania. Lyons are the greatest beneficiaries of Champions League wealth, using the bounty from the competition to turn the French league into a monopoly. Amazingly, Ligue 1 is held up by David Taylor, Platini's right-hand man, as an example to English football.

Porto v Dynamo Kiev
Jorge Nuno Pinto da Costa, the Porto chairman, was accused of three offences relating to match-fixing in 2005 and the case was recently reopened in light of new evidence. As a result Porto were banned from the Champions League in June but reinstated because the disciplinary process in Portugal was incomplete. Dynamo were banned from the Champions League in 1995 for offering money to match officials and Igor Surkis, the brother of the general manager at the time, Gregory Surkis, now runs the club. Gregory is president of the Ukrainian FA, co-hosts of Uefa's next European Championship.

Fenerbahçe v Arsenal
The Turkish club are owned by Aziz Yildirim, a construction tycoon. The coach is Spanish and in the previous Champions League game against Dynamo Kiev, six of the starting line-up were foreign.

Zenit St Petersburg v BATE Borisov
Zenit are the richest club in Russia because of the patronage of Gazprom, the energy company that is the largest trader of natural gas in the world, and Borisov's success is the work of Anatoli Kapski, who has a car, tractor and electrical equipment plant in Belarus. Champions League matches are played in Minsk because the stadium in Borisov is too small. Perfect examples of model one: new money from the East.

Juventus v Real Madrid
Platini's former club are at the vanguard of model two, the old European order. Majority-controlled by the Agnelli family, who, as the owners of Fiat, were once responsible for 4.4 per cent of Italy's gross national product, they are hugely powerful and influential within Italian football As for Real, with the royal family in the stands, they are not short of clout, either, and this no doubt came in handy in 2001 when the club sold part of their training ground at a huge price to the local council to pay off debts, leading to the accusation that Madrid's citizens were bankrolling a football team. The money funded the galáctico era - of which, no complaint from Uefa - and the club have debts of £177 million.

Bordeaux v CFR Cluj
Since 2001, Bordeaux have operated as a subsidiary of M6, the French TV group. Cluj, like Villarreal, were a lower-division side until the involvement of Arpad Paszkany, a wealthy local businessman whose investments spread across construction companies and the Romanian railway network. Only one in four of the squad is Romanian and the manager is Italian.

Chelsea v Roma
Roma's owners, the Sensi family, have recently been forced to deny rumours of a mounting financial crisis at the club, with debts estimated in the region of £350 million. Roma are 64.3 per cent owned and funded by the Sensi's Compagnia Italpetroli, a petroleum refining company. Roma's position is as precarious as any in English football, yet no word from Uefa on them.

Inter Milan v Anorthosis Famagusta
Number of Italian players in Inter's previous Champions League starting line-up: two. The coach is Portuguese and the chairman, Massimo Moratti, an oil tycoon, has been outspent in the transfer market only by Roman Abramovich while going through nine coaches. So where is Milan in that? And where is the absence of a corrupting financial influence when the money Famagusta accrue from reaching the Champions League group stage, roughly £7.5 million, amounts to more than the total revenue of the league in Cyprus?

Panathinaikos v Werder Bremen
Giannis Vardinogiannis is the Panathinaikos majority shareholder, Nikos Pateras, a Greek shipping magnate, the new president and there are echoes of the Real deal in the construction of the stadium, part-funded by the council and the government. In return, the city will take possession of the land on which the Apostolos Nikolaidis stadium stands, dilapidated and no longer able to host Champions League matches. Bremen are a well-run, organic club, 51 per cent owned by members - and 54.5 per cent represented by foreign players in their previous Champions League match.

Basle v Barcelona
Between 1999 and 2002, UBS provided millions to relieve Basle's accumulated debts, ensuring they entered the millennium in the black with a new stadium. Now the club are run by Gigi Oeri, wife of Andreas Oeri, whose family have the controlling majority shareholding in Roche pharmaceuticals. Barcelona are the third-richest club in the world and much is made of their democratic membership scheme; the £158 million debt, not so much.

Shakhtar Donestsk v Sporting Lisbon
Shakhtar are supported by one of the richest men in Europe, Rinat Akhmetov, a banker and founder of the System Capital Management Group, and had not won the league before his arrival in 1996. Sporting also have a friendly financier, Filipe Soares Franco, the chairman, who was voted in at election time by guaranteeing an income of roughly £80 million.

Atlético Madrid v Liverpool
Atlético are run by the family of Jesús Gil, a millionaire from construction who spent time in jail when one of his buildings collapsed, killing 58 people. Serving as mayor of Marbella, he was barred for 28 years from holding public office. Like Liverpool, Atlético have a foreign coach.

PSV Eindhoven v Marseilles
Eindhoven are owned and run by Philips, the electrical corporation. Marseilles are bankrolled by Robert Louis-Dreyfus, a billionaire and the former chief executive of Neuf Telecom, adidas and Saatchi & Saatchi. In 2001, Marseilles were due to be relegated for financial irregularities, but were reinstated after Louis-Dreyfus cleared the club's £25 million debt.

So there you have it. Maybe English debt is different to debt in Europe. Maybe that fit and proper person test never caught on over there, either. Maybe the Premier League doesn't actually make football less competitive than it is in France, or is about to become in Belarus or Cyprus. Who knows? Perhaps Platini will explain why English football is so very different at his next press conference; or perhaps, better still, Lord PleasedMan will do it while Platini drinks a glass of water.

Auldheid at 12:50,

You too, will be expecting the chaos?

The reason that Man U looked fitter than Celtic is that good players make the ball do all the work. We have good players at SPL level which is nowhere near the level of the players that Man U have, Celtic was left to chase the ball and players all night no wonder they were knackered. We play in a country that has not produced a World Class player in over 30 years and we wonder why we get tanked by Man U. As skillful as the likes of Aiden, Maloney etc. are they only stand out on a regualr basis in the SPL, could anybody see any of our players cracking the starting line-up of the top four of the EPL, I can't. We can't even compete financially with Blackburn who made over £40 million on TV rights last year but still there are some on here thinking we should be competing with the Man Us of this world.

Forget the Man Us of this world it is Hibs we need to worry about, they are more closer to our level than we are to Man Us level, we need to beat the Hibees this weekend. Four in a row is what it is all about for us and maybe a good run in the Uefa Cup.

Awe_Naw_No_Annoni_Oan_Anaw_Noo October 22, 2008 1:15 PM

Best post of the day by far. Especially liked ;
“As the Police Match Commander at Old Trafford, I would like to pass on my thanks to those Celtic fans who came to support their club in the finest traditions of genuine football fans, and ambassadors of Glasgow."
“I have to say that Celtic Football Club has every right to be proud of its fans. Those who braved the night in a windy and wet Manchester were a credit to the club."
“I believe that Celtic fans did a great deal to enhance not only the club's reputation across Europe, but also their own - well done.”

Now whilst the behaviour of our "Ambassadors" was never in doubt, it is a pleasure to read such an endorsement from a high ranking official.

Once again Bhoys, "Take a bow".

I am assuming that the lack of condemnation of the Celtic fans behaviour in the City of Manchester means that there were no incidents worthy of note

Following TFODs rampaging expoits earlier in the year would it have been too much for either Manchester or Glasgow newspapers to raise a word of praise for our great ambassadors who have once again shown the world that one half of Glasgows citizens know how to behave either in victory or failure.

As such I have sent an e mail to the City of Manchester Police and have attached the note below.

Dear sir

Following the disgraceful behaviour of an element of the Glasgow Rangers support in your city earlier in the year, it was with some trepidation that I watched the supporters of my club Glasgow Celtic leave for Manchester on Monday and Tuesday of this week.

While we have visited your city on many occassions without problems I was worried that perhaps the event of earlier in the year may have resulted in a heavy handed approach to our support.

As a former citizen of Stretford I was very happy to see that the match passed off without any press reports of trouble both at Old Trafford and elsewhere. It was however dissappointing that no praise was given to the Celtic support for their commendable behaviour and I wonder if you agree that this would be significant in the healing process between our two great cities if that could be arranged either to the club or associated press.

Although the damage to Glasgow's reputation was committed by our footballing neighbours across the city, we would wish the Manchester public to be aware that although a great many Rangers fans desicrated your City we are ashamed of their conduct and as Celtic supporters will continue to be ambassadors for our club and city when we attend matches at any ground we visit.

Regards

thismancraig

don't really know what you are saying but I really hope that Celtic F.C. has slightly bigger ambitions than just winning the SPL to keep us financially afloat.Surely we want to be contenders in Europe.I think there is currently a mentality that says winning the SPL is everything.It may be a priority but we must strive to be a force in Europe once again for this club to take its rightfull place.

ANTSMAN

I take your points on board and I have used the word FACT incorrectly. FACT :-)

I was getting really annoyed at the number of people criticizing the team so heavily and not taking into account the bigger picture as I have tried to illustrate.

I would have readily accepted a draw last night before a ball was kicked. I'm sure most Celtic fans would have.

I agree that Man UTD could have played fantastically but not scored and we could have scored a goal on the counter attack. Result - Our 1st away win in the Champions League.

I also accept that my last point should not have included the words FACT and Theoretically in the same paragraph/statement. They were actually meant to be separate points

Would you accept that we would have stood a better chance if
1) Man Utd had played rubbish?
2) We had Samaras, JVOH and Crosas available?
3) Both offside goals had been disallowed.

Would you agree that we would be in a better position to move forward as a club if we were no longer playing in the SPL?

DBBIA
Have you read "The Hour of our Death" The classic history of western attitudes toward death over the last one thousand years by Philippe Aries.

The Grim Reaper CSC

TNT,
there's something to be said for "let the ball do the running".
a good player knows when to move the ball on and when not to.

I have another theory for the lack of fitness or percieved lack of fitness. Five minutes before kickoff adrenalin pumping at full rate 30 mins into game 0-0 against Manu at Old Trafford more adrenalin and then offside goal and another after the break, this will take the "puff" out of your sails in a hurry.

Paul Hartley is one of my favourite players but someone should rescind his membership in the square sausage club!

gsu

Celtic Bob.

No. You're correct. He's not the finished article. Byut for he he's not even providing us with enough of a threat. And the number of times Aiden loses posession - well its far too great for someone with his supposed ability.

Idon't know if he'll ever reach the potential that many see in him. Put it this way. If he'd been at Man Utd for as long as he's been with Celtic Fergie'd have it sorted by now. Onwe way or the other.

But. I'll admit. I'm probably too subjective on this issue. I just don't see it with Aiden.

TNT @ 31:30pm

Your comments on the gulf between Man U and ourselves are spot on in my opinion.

Believing that we will regularly compete with the likes of Man Utd, occasional upsets notwithstanding, is fantasy.

Different point - Does anyone else share my boredom with the permanent criticism of Lee Naylor?

It's a given that he's not good enough to be at Celtic.

It's a given that he needs to be replaced as soon as possible.

It's a given that if we do not bring in a better LB in January that everyone will be somewhere between a bit disapointed and wanting to assassinate WGS and the Board.

I don't remember reading a contrary opinion on here for a very long time so what's the point in repeating it over and over?

On a brighter note I'm off to see Christy Moore tonight. Down side is it's in Aberystwyth.

Swansea Bhoy

After I sent my e mail and posted on here I read Dundee Perths post from the Match Commander

I have since had the response below from Manchester Police.

-------------------------------------------------------------------

Have passed your comments on and will seek a response as soon as possible.

Mark Cookson
Web Team
GMP

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

As always we take the higher ground and while some posters remarked on being ashamed last night I can tell you that I am still and always will be proud of my club, its players and supporters and ALL it stands for.

A wee self indulgent plug for my son's new blog.

He used to have Tom's Sporting Almananac, which, with the help of CQNers,won the Ireland's Sports Blog of the Year Award in 2007.

He is now working as a Sports Reporter with TV3 in Ireland.

http://www.tv3.ie/blogs.php

Lamartine- no, I'm afraid not, although I'm always on the lookout for a good read.

DBBIA/Libero nos a Malo CSC

SwanseaBhoy,

Christy Moore kicks off his concert with a song entitled The Lee Naylor Blues :-) ... just thought I´d warn you !!

I watched the game last night on RTE2 for the first time. Couldn´t believe what a bunch of preening fawning Man U obsessed tarts they all were. The pre match buildup never featured Celtic at all. Any neutral observer watching would have thought it was Man U TV.

The Irish need to get a grip before they become an extension of Surrey. Thats where I´ve met the most Man U fans in my lifetime. Mind you I met a few in Bangkok too

Hail Hail

cody

Are you saying if Caldwell had played CB last night we'd have won?

I think that given our opposition and our away record we'd likely have lost regardless, but given that we knew we'd be defending for most of the game I think it was a big mistake to "experiment" by taking our best defender out of defence and replacing him with the far from convincing (so far) Loovens.

I've been fairly positive about Lee Naylor for a while now, but even I couldn't spin anything out of his invisibility in defence/shocking distribution yesterday. I think you'd have to be as blind as either linesman to be able to defend him for that performance. He is being singled out for this one because he was utter mince - people are having a pop at nearly everyone because our deficiencies were laid bare for all to see. Most of the criticism of individuals is on their individual performance last night, Lee included in that, and he had an absolute stinker.

I've said before, it must be near impossible to play with thousands of people collectively drawing the breath every time you get the ball, knowing they are waiting for you to do something that will allow them to get lamped right into you. Some people can rise above it (Caldwell, Telfer), some can't, and I don't think Lee can. Whether that's a result of his domestic situation biting away at his confidence, I have no idea. If we had a replacement, he'd be getting some time to get his head back together. I refuse to believe he is as bad as all that, it was less than two years ago that he was shortlisted for SPL Player of the Year.

Do the club have a psychologist, by the way? Not suggesting that Lee specifically needs one, but I wondered if part of the set-up included allowing players the opportunity to deal with issues that may be preying on their mind and affecting their day-to-day work. It was suggested that mental health issues were to blame for Gravesen's failure to make an impact, for example.

(I edited that wrong first line is quote from BhoyFromTheCountyHell)

Hi Paul,
Just wondering if you have any idea why GS went for Sheridan ahead of Hutchinson?

It seems odd to play a young player who has barely played in the first team never mind at this level ahead of Hutchinson who has played teams from the same league as ManUre and has greater experience at a higher level.

I think Sheridan gave the best account of himself that he could but to me it seemed an odd choice.

/Bishop B

Champions League story so far:

v Aalborg. Better team on the night, miss a penalty and have a perfectly good goal chopped off.
v Villareal. They were the better team but our tactics were spot on. We had a few chances to sneak a goal and were eventually beaten by a free kick from a poor refereeing decision.
v ManU. 1st half hour we were doing well. They had not had a shot on target, we had a couple of good efforts. Then up steps the officials, 2 offside goals and the match is over as a competition. I know Rooney then had a good goal chopped off, but the damage had already been done. The pressure to score was taken off them by poor officials.

Now I know we need to strengthen as a team, but as I posted previous to kick off last night, we cannot compete with the top teams financially. Not until Uefa step in, and they will. The Latins French & Germans will not put up with the EPL monopoly. Also the new money in the EPL will want a means of entry. It is difficult enough with all this, but when major decisions are wrong to the extent they have been so far, it becomes nigh on impossible.

BTW, did anyone else see Fergie's face when it was suggested Berbatov was offside by the interviewer after the game? The smile disappeared immediately and he did a Wenger, "Never seen it."

Cody

Fair point, that makes sense, it probably wasn't the best time to experiment. I thought Caldwell played well in midfield though, and didn't think Loovens was bad, just not brilliant.

Hail Hail and that

Len

I was wondering the same. I do like the look of Sheridan and believe he could be a really good player. But I did expect Hutchinson to appear from the bench. A caller last night on RS said he watched Hutchinson regularly in the reserves and was playing well. He also said he (Ben) was 6' 2". Is he? Looks 6'2" across!!

Oneantonrogan

I think the difference in LN last night was that he was hiding and thats not acceptable. He kept pulling inside when defending to avoid facing Ronaldo and later Nani. When he got the ball he didnt even try to play a pass from defence - I think as you point out he is now very wary following the criticism.

While we are not happy with his performance I sincerely hope that all true Celtic fans understand what our reaction should now be - support the bhoy and the team. As long as he pulls the hoops on I will back him and hopefully he feels our faith and starts to believe in himself now

BTW - if CFC dont have a psychologist I can give them the number of mine.

Lee Naylor had a stinker last night, but whoever was supposed to be playing left midfield didn't help him one bit. I lost count of the amount of times the ball was played out there in the first half and there was no midfielder to help stop the inevitable 1-2's that Man Utd were playing.

Further to my earlier chat with Henrik's Sombrero, here are the comparatives Champions League performances for us and Rangers:

CELTIC
01/02: 9 points
03/04: 7 points
04/05: 5 points
06/07: 9 points
07/08: 9 points
08/09: 1 point (so far)
40 POINTS IN TOTAL

Rangers
92/93: 8 points (2 pts for a win so would have been 10 under present system)
95/96: 3 points (3 draws !)
96/97: 3 points (1 win, 5 defeats)
99/00: 7 points
00/01: 8 points
03/04: 4 points
05/06: 7 points
07/08: 7 points
47 POINTS IN TOTAL (over 2 more campaigns and a nine year head start)

They have had four away wins (CSKA Moscow, PSV, Monaco, Lyon) but have never beaten a top seed. They hold the record for heaviest defeat (4-0 H to Juve) and most goals conceded in a single game (Juve 4-0 & 4-1 and Ajax 4-1).

Craiginho
Oor name's also on the trophy CSC

Is Ben Hutchinson not jsut back from injury? Maybe not the best game to throw him in.

Awe Naw..,

I started off watching RTE's coverage, but I had to go and check to see who they were playing against.

They are a continuing, absolute disgrace. Giles never liked us and has never had a positive word to say about Celtic.

I trace that back to his Leeds days, when we "done" them out of their "rightful place" as Europe's top team. Dunphy is just Dunphy, an argument looking for a row. Whelan is just totally ignorant of football outside of L'pool.

I went over to ITV London at half time, but didn't stay there.

STV provided a bit of comfort with the familiar tones of Mc.Lean, Hartson in the studio and Crocker and Burley at the ground.

Long time daily lurker, first time poster.Brilliant site and a great source of solace after a bad performance / result.Was at the game last nite and am in agreement that we held our own for the first thirty minutes, but were totally outclassed thereafter.Don't agree however about Caldwell who I thought was slow and ponderous and certainly not in the same league as Crossas in that position.The worst player for me though on the night was Robson who made no positive contribution whatsoever and can't understand how he was prefered to Maloney.What was Strachan thinking about bringing on Hartley, a (now) defensive minded player who is average at the best of times, when we were already chasing the game? What on earth does Caddis have to do to get a game?

Lurgan53,

I've seen him a number of times and he not only looks big, he IS big. He's also very quick and that was something I think we could have done with last night when Skippy was replaced.

Not sure if he's still recovering from some knock but just find it odd that he seems to be behind a player two years his junior and with far less experience at a higher level.

/Bishop B

Goggsy

Welcome to the posting fraternity

We all wonder about Caddis and why he doesnt get a run

Not read all the posts, but I thought all 3 of Man U's goals were offside. Tevez ran across Artur's view in an offside position just before Rooney shot. Though, decisions aside, it was obvious the scoreline did reflect the difference between the squads. If offsides were called correctly we may have escaped with a draw, more likely a 2-0 defeat.

One thing that concerned me was that our players did not look as athletic as theirs, even Rooney looked slimmer than a few of our guys. I think Mr Dupont still has a bit of work to do.

Another night to put down to experience and move on. Aalborg away is this seasons Euro cup final.

I think everybody going on about our fitness should read Narrowbhoat Tims post above. WGS called it straight away we dont pass the ball and keep possession as good as the current European Champions. That´s a serious handicap especially at CL level playing away from home without any player capable of holding the ball up.

Malceye, totally agree, although I would perhaps add Italy to your list. Nothing will change until the football finance bubble bursts.

Kingoh, totally agree on Gary Caldwell.

Belfastbhoy, Inverness may have, as we have done to some big names at home in the CL, but Inverness still lost to us and we do manage to win a fair portion at home.

Lamartine, I don’t know who told you that about Sutton, Hartson, Thompson and Agathe, but I can assure you that Hartson and Thompson (not to mention Lennon) all stepped up to the plate when the new training regime came in.

John Hartson was, in fact, putting in more work than most of the squad. Agathe scarcely trained at all under Strachan, declaring himself injured for more than half of the season.

The Provocative "H", I am at such a loss with central midfield I am keen to change things. Marc Crosas is still edging himself into the side and while there are encouraging signs, like all young players, he has a tendency to drift from the game.

Caldwell is out best defender, but when we play most SPL teams, we spend so little time defending that the need in central mid is greater.

Play Caldwell in the middle against Hibs and they will not get over the half way line – always the most effective way to defend.

Moonbeams, indeed.

Cody, I am sure if Crosas was fit the experiment last night would not have happened. Yes, Caldwell mis-palced passes, but the movement in front of him was limited.

Len Brennan, no idea.

Welcome Goggsy.

weeminger,
Not sure if he was injured but he played and scored in the game again the mini orcs a few weeks ago.
And at the top of the page here there's a link to a blog from the 17/10 on him being fit.

/Bishop B

Usually after Celtic lose I can't bear to think about football for at least a day, but I find myself looking forward immensely to coverage on Radio Nacional of the Barcelona and Atlético Madrid matches tonight.

I think they will be dynamite.

If, like me, you are non-council telly challenged, and you have a bit of the language, www.rne.es will give you a new appreciation of what radio coverage of football can be.

Been trying to post all day, but work keeps getting in the way. We lost last night to a (much) better team, that can spend on one player what we can spend on a team. That aside I'm very frustrated at the way we lost. 2-0 down to 2 offside "goals", that changes the whole approach and potentailly makes the other chances/goals appear when they may not have. There were quite a few short comings in Celtics's performance, and I'm sure that the players won't need telling. There have been a couple of detractors, but as far as I'm concerned Gary Caldwell stand up and take a bow (my dad always rated him I was never sure but the last 6 months have been a revalation), Big Mick also had a good game. Sheridan looks like one for the future. Last night just confirmed that we need a left-back, and as somebody earlier said what does Caddis have to do to get a run at right-back.

In the minority here, but thought McGeady was very good.

Paul67

Re the Caldwell thing, are you suggesting that Paul Hartley's days should be numbered as nothing more than bench fodder? (If so i would agree. I think Gary's attitude/directnesd would offer more. I really admire the way Caldwell tries to drive the team , from CB, when the chips are down and we are losing even if the application is not always top notch. My worry is nippy 'in the hole' players would extract alot of fouls from him.

Incidentally did nobody else think Sheridan while not nmaking a big impression showed alot of intelligent movement last night?

Celtic_First @ 12:36 PM

"When we were down and out against Rangers at Celtic Park, who was the one Celtic player that still wanted the ball, that could still hold the ball and that was still looking to inflict a bit of pain on them?

In Villarreal, who was the one player (until he tired)that looked comfortable holding the ball and who knew that keeping the ball above all was the aim (until he tired)?

His initials are SN"

Got it! Shaun Naloney.

Some random thoughts:

Lee Naylor put in a couple of very good low crosses last night, which was the thing to do with no big strikers. He also put in several atrocious high crosses.

It is much harder to chase the ball than to pass it. That's why they looked faster: they didn't have to run as much. We didn't keep the ball well enough when we had it.

On Rooney's goal, Loovens let him turn and then tried to block with his wrong foot. A right footed centre back may have blocked the shot.

I'm amazed that posters have said that Aalborg's three goals in Villareal are a great achievement - they lost six! If we draw 0 - 0 in Denmark, the UEFA Cup place could conceivably come down to goal difference.

Re McGeady, if he is as poor as some suggest, why did man utd double up on him last night? sirwalex is no fool.

Sir Paul

On Gary Caldwell.

A year or so ago, I started an Experiment ... for my own benefit..at the time.

Now you my friend, will agree, that at the time...this Experiment was viewed,by many, as Kojoesque, and therefore, beyond the Ken...not by my friends..but by most.

I called it... Celtic's Loyal and Venerable
Marching Society or... "Kojo's, Fair Haired Bhoys".

Lousy Title.. but, nevertheless, at least a Working one.

The idea behind it was to form a list of Celtic Players who would rise above the norm.. and do the one thing that always gladdens My Heart...

Whit wid that be?

IMPROVE... Simply, IMPROVE!

The Invitation to join My Fair Haired Bhoys..was predicated on the folllowing set of parameters.

Should a Player, who had PREVIOUSLY, been turning in, very Disappointing and Flat Displays,Gradually, by dint of Determination and Hard work,begin to show that which I yearn for.. IMPROVEMENT...in his over-all Ability,and that Player had now become and Important and Valuable Integral Cog, in the Celtic Team.

Then.. It would follow that that Player would be invited to become a Member of the Illustious..."Kojo's, Fair Haired Bhoys".

Get it? Got it? Good!(copyright, Fargo...)

Rememeber, that this Experiment started... Over ONE YEAR AGO.

Up until the present.. Only TWO Players .. Graduated, to become Members.

Namely.. Gary Caldwell and Jvoh.

Two!

A Disappointment, Heaped on a Disappointment,Heaped on.. O.K... enough!

So, according to the results of my Experiment...

NOT ONE... of The Rest of the Celtic Players had attained Membership...which would require ..as Everyboady who is Anyboady Knows by Now...

and to put Succinctly and Simply, as I can ..to

IMPROVE.. and not only IMPROVE ONE'S PERFORMANCE,but,TO DO IT IN AN ONGOING AND CONSISTENT MANNER.

Palomine.. Only Two Darn Names!.. over a Full Season.. is not what I WAS LOOKING FOR, when I commenced my Experiment.

Therefore...

The Rest of the Team are suspect..

And when you look at the names involved, and realize that their Present Accepted Reputations are not only Highly Exaggerated.. but in some cases...

OUTRIGHT SPURIOUS!

A case in point..

Aiden McGeady...

NO IMPROVEMENT.. in Fact .. To be truthful..

HE HAS PLATEAUED!

Bad News for a Young Man, of whom much, much, more improvement was Expected..as he is now.. IN MY OPINION.. FULLY MATURED.

He has gathered a Wealth of Experience over the years..Played in the Hightest Competitions...

AND HE HAS STILL HAS NOT LEARNED TO OBLITERATE the CHILDISH HABITS that have DOGGED HIM and have prevented him from fully achieving what had been expected of him.

HE is a PRIME CANDIDATE,for Transfer.

Celtic should Cash in .. before the word gets out..and I mean that.

That Money could be used to close a number of gapping gaps in our Defensive shield.

Naka?... of course.. He is on the Downward Path..again..

Cash in...

Boruc... again.. on the Downward Path.

Cash in.

The Others?

Should all be gradually,let go..

The Time has come for serious Re-Building.

A Huge Sector of the Present Contingent of Celtic Players..

Have proven... TO ME! TO ME!

That their best times are well behind them.

Caddis, should be immediately Promoted.. no ifs ands of Buts..

I do not care to what position in the Team.

Master Caddis, is the type of Player that ..

CAN TAKE THE GAME BY THE SCRUFF OF THE NECK... and make things Happen..

Oh! Yes HE CAN... I have seen him do it in the Reserves.. Many a time..

THAT IS THE TYPE OF PLAYER that Is NEEDED.

Gary Caldwell has the same Type of Personality.. He does not have the inherent skill or extreme Potential as Master Caddis..

Nevertheless.. GARY DOES HAVE LEADERSHIP QUALITY.

Enough?

I agree..

Howevahh.. all that being said..

I Feel a wholelotta Bettah!

And in this Ranch... That is Awe that Coonts!

Kojo.

I think the Gary Caldwell-as-midfielder thing will stop when Crosas comes back. Or when we lose Gary Caldwell at the end of the season. Get him tied up NOW. I did mention a couple of days ago when we were picking our ideal starting lineups that I thought he could do a job there, but didn't think Old Trafford was the place to start experimenting. When we already have an actual Paul Hartley who is experienced enough at doing the Paul Hartley role, it seemed like nothing more than a way of getting Glen Loovens into the defence without upsetting the standard back four formation. I thought Glen had not a bad game last night, but if there's a straight choice between him and Gary Caldwell, then Caldwell will win every time. (I also said that if Caldwell was pushed forward, I would rather have had Darren O'Dea in - he's been doing well in the reserves and didn't look remotely fazed against AC Milan when called upon). I also called for Sheridan to start ahead of Skippy, who is never a lone striker in a million years, I thought he showed enough when he came on against Inverness to let him have a crack at them.

20-20 hindsight's great, isn't it?

Gordon

I think many in the current team panic - been thinking that for a couple of seasons and hoping each year when they win the league we will settle down.

I thought if Loovens was right footed he would have stopped the first goal and same as you with the 3rd

But its a time for realism today - Rooney does that at every level and Berbatov was offside and is a £30m striker.

PetetheBeat

Are you being serious. Aiden's ball retention alone was poor, never mind his lack of creativity.

thomthethim
Completely agree on your assessment of RTes coverage. The worst offender in my book when it comes to anything outside the spl is Bill O'Herlihy.

He has such a dismissive attitude towards us and looks as if he'd rather be having his teeth pulled than having to put up with SPL opposition. We get it Bill, most spl sides cant live with the premiership side. Its abour money Bill, MONEY. (sounding like Liam Brady there).

As for Dunphy, he has in the recent past started to show some respect towards Celtic. Ever since he wrote them off time after time in the Uefa run and our home CL matches eary on he is now a good guy again....in a tabloid headline idiotic sort of way.

Celtic First,
Don't know about the Spanish commentary although I appreciate your translations that you give us from time to time.

If Rugby Union is of any interest to anyone This fella is IMO the best in the World at the moment

http://www.rte.ie/laweb/ll/ll_t07c.html

Onwards for Hibees....unleash Hell Celtic.

Antsman @ 3:14 PM

"Incidentally did nobody else think Sheridan while not nmaking a big impression showed alot of intelligent movement last night?"

Absolute rubbish - a brainless post.

Sorry 'outside the EPL'

Time for a little light relief ???

Life truly is stranger than fiction !!!!

"Murder or Suicide?

At the 1994 annual awards dinner given for Forensic Science, AAFS President Dr Don Harper Mills astounded his audience with the legal complications of bizarre death. Here is the story.

On March 23, 1994 the medical examiner viewed the body of Ronald Opus and concluded that he died from a shotgun wound to the head. Mr Opus had jumped from the top of a ten-story building intending to commit suicide.

He left a note to the effect indicating his despondency.

As he fell past the ninth floor his lift was interrupted by a shotgun blast passing through the window, which killed him instantly. Neither the shooter nor the deceased was aware that a safety net had been installed just below the eighth floor level to protect some building workers and that Ronald Opus would not have been able to complete his suicide the way he had planned.

“Ordinarily” Dr Mills continued, “A person who sets out to commit suicide and ultimately succeeds, even though the mechanism might not be what he intended, is still defined as committing suicide”. That Mr Opus was shot on the way to certain death, but probably would not have been successful because of the safety net, caused the medical examiner to feel that he had a homicide on his hands.

In the room on the ninth floor, where the shotgun blast emanated, was occupied by an elderly man and his wife. They were arguing vigorously and he was threatening her with a shotgun. The man was so upset that when he pulled the trigger he completely missed his wife and the pellets went through the window striking Mr Opus. When one intends to kill subject “A” but kills subject “B” in the attempt, one is guilty of the murder of subject “B”.

When confronted with the murder charge the old man and his wife were both adamant and both said that they thought the shotgun was unloaded. The old man said it was a long-standing habit to threaten his wife with the unloaded shotgun. He had no intention to murder her. Therefore the killing of Mr Opus appeared to be an accident; that is, if the gun had been accidentally loaded.

The continuing investigation turned up a witness who saw e old couple’s son loading the shotgun about six weeks prior to the fatal accident. It transpired that the old lady had cut off her son’s financial support and the son, knowing the propensity of his father to use the shotgun threateningly, loaded the gun with the expectation that his father would shoot his mother.

Since the loader of the gun was aware of this, he was guilty of the murder even though he didn’t actually pull the trigger. The case now becomes one of murder on the part of the son for the death of Ronald Opus.

Now comes the exquisite twist.

Further investigation revealed that the son was, in fact, Ronald Opus. He had become increasingly despondent over the failure of this attempt to engineer his mother’s murder. This led him to jump off the tend story building on March 23rd, only to be killed by a shotgun blast passing through the ninth story window. The son had actually murdered himself so the medical examiner closed the case as a suicide.

A true story from Associated Press,
Reported by Kurt Westervelt."

Bizarre of what?

pablophanque

Kojo.

Phew!! Feeling better? Have to say I agree 100 + 1% with you. Although I'm still claiming Caldwell as my Best Bhoy - he's mine all mine!!

Was nearly lynched at the weekend when I penned my thoughts re Aiden. And its not as if its just a recent thing with him. AND I'm afraid you're correct re Artur. What does worry me about our two prized assets is that there was not a single offer - NOT A SAUSAGE - on the table for either the two during the summer!! So maybe the word is already out.

Caddis - yep giddiminnow - if not sooner. Like the look of Sheridan too. But above all lets do the basics right. Pass and move. Move and pass. With indecent haste too.

Lurgan whoislookingforwardtocheeringonhisheroesonSaturday

Did we not have a wee poster on here called Opus very recently

Sorry to burst your bubble, Pablophanque...(it's still a good story though)

Kojo

At the end of last season I advocated the sale of Boruc, Brown and Mcgeady. Conservatively (non political) that would bring in £25m and fund a major rebuild. With Graveson out and Balde to follow it would also wipe off major wages too.

I was told this was cwazy as this would rip the heart from the team.

I dont think Aiden has peaked - but he has at Celtic.

THG is the best we have had in my adult life but Im sure we could find a solid keeper after all TFOD have done repeatedly

And although I am a fan of Broony - double £4m is £8m and can buy 2 £4m players.

So I am with you on your campaign

Kojo,

As you know time for rethink in my view. Certain easy decisions must be made by our manager. If Master McManus is relived of his central defensive place then Master Caldwell as potential captain in the future?

Pablo, heard that one before. Urban myth I think

Paul, One thing that I noticed last night with Caldwell was that when he broke from midfield he was guilty of NOT getting his head up. Two or three times he missed the opportunity to spread the ball wide right preferring to charge through the middle. I can't critisise his overall contribution though. I thought he was one of our best performers despite playing out of position.

IMO it is a poor reflection on the manager that he had to deploy Caldwell in midfield. Caldwell is our best defender by a country mile and needs to be in defence. We have an abundance of midfielders and we should not be experimenting in the CL.

Pablo

As TGITW is on a sabbatical the last 2 days that will fill in nicely.

Maybe WGs tale will one day be passed on through the internet as believable................

Pablo -lazy journalism, tsk tsk ;~@

Should have gone to Wiki!

I phoned you after the game but your phone was unavailable- presumably you'd chucked it in an attempt to get it on the end of one of Naldini's 'crosses'

pablophanque

magnolia

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hAWDEsgMahQ

2.55 minutes in

ulster-celt

My dear,dear,dear,dear,dear,dear,dear,dear,friend.. Lurgan53

Thanks,pal for the concurrence.

I am told.. that the young American 'Tender, is a Winnah..

Howevvah... that remains to be seen.

Most of what I have written is soitenly not new... it is well known..
But, for whatevah reason..

IT IS UNSAID!

And it should be.... darn well... Said.!

Past Reputations, Past Performances, Past Wonder Goals.. have one thing in common..

THEY ARE IN THE PAST!

Fr'instance..

I thought that... although to bring him back was against my bettah judgment...

That after watching Molly's First Game on his return...

That Molly would indeed instill the Still...that we we were in such need...His performance was exhilerating and exciting.

Good! I thought.. so I was wrong... to bring Molly Back..was a Master Stroke!

Howevahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh..

On looking back at his subsequent Performances...

A whole Different Picture Emerges.

Na...

It was a Mistake tae bring him back... He has too many bad habits that by this time, I surely thought, that he would have eliminated.

Bad Habits..

How about...

LAZINESS, LAXITY, and HIS Ability or because of his Lack of..to Drift

Completely out of the Proceedings..

It is very seldom that Molly will Chase Back ...harrowing and snapping at the heels of an opponent...
a la Naka..who at this type of thing,is totally useless... but, at least Naka Makes the effort.

Molly would be the foist to get the auld Heave Ho..if I were King!

Which I am not..to my lasting sorrow.

Master Brown?

He is ON THE IMPROVE..

So...

I will give him a chance.. I believe He will come good.

I would nevah give Naylor.. even ONE MORE CHANCE.

I would sit him down, permanently.

I do not care who would replace him.. even collie could do Bettah.

Naylor is a waste of a Joisey.

Ach...

That's enough.

Kojo.
yer pal.. who likes ye a loat.

Kojo if I didn't know better I would swear you are the guy who I go the game with cause reading your post was like hearing an echo of the same conversation I've had all season.

That aside I have never been a fan of brown but I think he definetely has been improving.

With regards to LN, I agree we do need a new LB but i don't think his performances are help by questions being asked about his replacement at agms. My problem with Naylor is that lack of competition made him complacent and thus labelled a one year wonder. He's still in the same position until at least january. The problem then is if he does go in the window and we sign a replacement then we need, cover and competition for him.

and get caddis in now

This might seem stupid but I don't see Rooney's offside goal as a dissallowed goal?(told you it sounded stupid).I know it ended in the net but the whistle was blown before he even shot thus stopping the game. Now if the ref had not blown and then chopped it off after consulting the ass. ref then that is a dissallowed goal.
I know it sounds stupid but it just annoys me.

PlaythewhistleCFC

look, I'm fed up reading the same regurgitated stuff from last night and I thought I'd try lightening the board FFS !!

Wont be trying that again :o(

DBBIA, battery died on me just as I got to my digs. Thought it might have looked a wee bit Towelthrowingesk, bit it wisnnae :o)

pablophanque

Suicide or Murder

In October 2008 Celtic Football club visited the City of Manchester to contest a champions league encounter with Inspector Taggarts First 11.

Their manager - Chesney Corriestreet - decided that he would field a team of leprechauns in line with the clubs Irish connections and selected a team of diverse nationalities ranging from Irish, japanese, australian and scottish little people.

Inspector Taggart on the otherhand went for a team valued at £300m, all big strapping lads that would knock the bejesus out of Chesneys little people.

As the first half progressed the wee men seemed to be holding their own and in fact had 3 attempts on target to the giants 1. However on the half hour mark the Belgian linesman (Eddie mercx) threw a spanner into Chesneys works by allowing a clearly offside goal to stand in favour of Taggerts Terrors. Worse was to follow after half time when the other Belgian linseman ( Poirot ) again allowed a controversial offside goal to stand.

With the leprechauns heads now down and their stature even lower than before it was only a matter of time before the Giants main striker Shrek got on the scoresheet to end the contest in a 3-0 victory for the home team.

After the match Inspector Taggart pwoudly announced "theres been a muwder" while many of the Celtic fans firmly believed that their managers selections had in fact been suicide.

You decide

My dear,dear,dear,dear,dear,dear,dear,dear,friend.. Jinkysboy.

Palomine, whether you knew it or not.. at the time, when were suggesting those player transfers..

YOU WERE DEVOUTLY FOLLOWING THE ONE RULE that always leads TO MONETARY ENHANCEMENT.

Sir Paul and I are old,old friends of this Venerable Artifice.

It is known to the cognoscenti as..

ASSET MANAGEMENT!

The G.A. have been practicing it rather well,lately.. to their over all SALVATION~

Celtic need to get with that Programme, as well.

Come on in, Celtic...
The Waater is Fine!

So..

You,pal were dead right in your thinking.

I shows me that you can use yer heid fur mair than keepin' baith yer ears frum slappin' the gether!

Kojo.
yer pal... who likes tae like ye.

My dear,dear,dear,dear,dear,friend.. Spacbhoy.

Na, pal... Ah am soitenly no the wan who goes tae the match, wi ye..

Howevahhhhh..

The Guy who you are referring to.. is only applying .. that magical uncanny soiten thingy..which is called...

UNCOMMON, COMMON SENSE!

There is SOME, o' it, gangin' aroon.. but, no too Much.

I suppose, that is why it is called.. "UNCOMMON"!

Maks a Wholelotta Sense... tae Me!

Kojo.
yer pal..who likes ye.

Pablo- so a story about a man being murdered in the act of committing suicide is 'lightening the board'-

how about coming on and saying you can no longer access' Now That's What I Call 80s Music' online- that might cheer us up ;~@

FF nightcrawlers are in uproar over the praise we're getting for our behaviour last night.

Göteborg-Rangers
Alex Moore - The Copland Front awaits you Sir.... Join Date: 18-10-2007
Location: Protestant Sweden...
Posts: 1,093

Re: "Ambassadors of Glasgow"...Manc police...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This was a certainty to get printed anyway. They have it in for us since Manchester and no matter what fans travel to their city in the future they will always compare it to 'what the big bad Rangers fans did'.

The ***** can't admit they underestimated the whole Uefa Cup final, so will always blame us.

Saying that, the ******** were happy enough to take the millions spent that day.

So in effect, the Manchester Police are only saying we're good to make them look bad....

Different species...they must be.

Kojo

Money makes the world go round eh!

But would you trust Gordon with a £30m budget for new players?

I think the way forward is the Ajax way and I like the suggestion made today about bringing in South Americans through an EEC feeder club. Although no more Scheidt please.

I see in an article I posted earlier that the Glazers companies are registered in the low tax state of Nevada !!!!

Some things in life are bad, they can really make you mad. Other things just make you swear and curse. when you're chewing on life's gristle, don't grumble give a whistle and this'll help things turn out for the best. And always look on the bright side of life...........................................

Celtic - Rangers finances compared
By
Paul67
on October 3, 2008 10:18 AM | Permalink | Comments (402)
While income and expenditure both turned slightly against Celtic last season, it was bonanza time at Ibrox where Rangers published record turnover as a result of the double bounty; Champions League group stage income followed by a run to the Uefa Cup final in Manchester.

Celtic turnover (t/o) was £75.237m compared to Rangers £64.452m, but Rangers outsource their merchandising operation, including only a licence payment from JJB Sports in the figures, whereas the Celtic figure includes total income from merchandising sales.

Celtic earned £16.092m from merchandising sales, contributing a margin of £4.8m in a financial year without the release of a new home shirt. When Rangers signed the JJB deal in 2006 they revealed they would earn £3m each year, plus £1.45m amortised in the Profit and Loss account (P&L) but paid at the start of the contract in 2006, criteria was in place to provide for bonus payments should unspecified targets be achieved.

It was, therefore, with some astonishment that no bonus payments were earned, despite the unprecedented proliferation of Rangers merchandise walking the streets ahead of the Manchester riot.

I understand that the bonus is dependent on progress to the latter stages of the Champions League, which ironically would have sold a lot less kit for JJB; it appears Rangers had overlooked a clause for Uefa Cup progress.

The big area of interest from a financial statement is the indication of where a company is heading next. Celtic will earn at least £70m this season but if they finish higher than bottom place in the Champions League group stage they should reach £75m.

By contrast, Rangers are looking at financial Armageddon. In 2004-05 they earned £34.48m (from continuing operations), a whopping £30m less than last season, but 2004-05 included four home European games, each with TV rights, compared to only one this season.

£34m will be the upper limit of their income potential this season; it will be less still, unless a good run in the domestic cups includes high-earning home games, a whole £40m less than what I expect from Celtic and still £28m less than the Celtic figure adjusted for comparable merchandise income.

Celtic salary costs were £38.981m, a £2.5m increase on the previous season, compared to £34.339m at Rangers, up a massive £10.1m on 2007. The latter figure will in part reflect incentive payments for European progress, although the clutch of new signings who arrived at the club in 2007 will make up the bulk of the increase.

In a masterstroke of business acumen, Rangers chief executive, Martin Bain, appears to have included the Uefa Cup in bonuses to be paid, but not on bonuses earned.

I was delighted to learn that Rangers pay more for the remarkably unpopular Bain (£668k) than Celtic pay for 'Self Appointed Football-Integrity Judge and Jury' (W.Smith), Peter Lawwell (£514k). Although perhaps Bain's remuneration also reflected Uefa Cup progress. You would think that with such big numbers flowing into his own bank account the whole 'What will be get if we do well in the Uefa Cup?' question would be at the front of his mind when he negotiated with JJB.

Football club's P&L income figures do not include player sales, with are recorded on the balance sheet, so Rangers sale of Cuellar will bring in £7.8m more than the income figure, which itself will be offset in cash terms by the £1.45m banked back in 2006 from JJB.

Before they start to spend on extravagances like footballers, clubs have considerable costs to pay. Rates, electricity, property maintenance, policing, to name only a few, cost Celtic £15.395m. Rangers figure was higher than this, perhaps as a result of exceptional items resulting from the run to the Uefa Cup final, so the previous year's cost of £16.262m will be a better indicator of costs this year, which is just £18m less than their anticipated income available for football and other operations.

By comparison, Celtic will have in the region of £45m available for football and other operations when adjusted for the merchandise sales difference.

Net bank debt at Celtic was £3.52m compared to Rangers' £21.559m but while Celtic are set to come out of debt in May (barring an exceptional expense in January), Rangers net year-end debt is likely to rise beyond £30m unless significant steps are taken to sell players in January.

Celtic are in an exceptionally strong financial position. They can survive the vagaries of football fortune, or economic downturn, without the threat of cutback should income dip.

Conversely, Rangers are in dire trouble. This year will not be financially the worst Sir David Murray has bestowed on his club, but it will make for horrendous reading to any prospective buyer of the club and provide further evidence that they are hopelessly adrift of financial security.

Winning the league this season and qualifying for next season's Champions League will not provide succour from their structural problems, it would only result in a temporary slowdown in decline.

Rangers debt has risen inextricably, and is set to continue to rise, at a time when bank facilities have become more difficult and expensive to acquire.

Should new HBOS owners, Lloyds TBS, take fright at the property-to-football conglomerate, Murray International Holdings, which includes Rangers, frankly, the consequences are so dramatic, I don't think we should discuss them, as I have trouble sleeping when I get too excited.

We live in a time when things which simply cannot happen, happen. When some of last year's most credit-worthy companies in the world have gone into receivership; when one of the centuries-old pillars of the Scottish business community crumbled in days.

No company dependent on a significant increase in its debt is safe.

Rangers Football Club, 1873 - 20??

:--) It had been a while Paul!

Becks to AC ?

Click Here

pablophanque

DBBIA, it's wearing a bit thin now :o(((

pablophanque

Henriks and All CQNers

I posted today @ 1.33 that I had e mailed Greater manchester police regards the good behaviour of our fans and that neither cities press had commended the great behaviour

I have now received the following e mail from the GMP press office
See what you make of this - especially the second part

Message response from GMP Press Office:

We felt it would be inappropriate to praise football supporters for behaving in a decent manner because this is what we would expect from any visitors to Manchester. Also, praising Celtic fans just a few months after Rangers fans received criticism following the UEFA Cup Final could possibly create further tensions between the clubs.

Look on the bright side.

The World Series starts tonight!

GoPhillies CSC

jinkysboy, shameful cop-out.

pablophanque

Pablo

the more I read it the more it pees me off

Martin42, you got mail.

pablophanque

jinksybhoy,

From the Evening Times:

"The match commander at Old Trafford, Superintendant John Graves, was delighted with the way the Celtic supporters conducted themselves.

"He plans to relay his congratulations to the Parkhead club, who provided their own stewards to assist at the game.

"Though there was a crowd of almost 76,000 there were just three arrests for minor offences as the Glasgow side were defeated 3-0.

"Superintendant Graves said: "It has been a successful operation.

"We had some great support from Celtic, their stewards and Strathclyde Police.

"I think a lot of good-hearted fans came to enjoy themselves," said the superintendant.

"Having seen Celtic play at Old Trafford two years ago without any serious incident, the top cop insisted the police were not fearful of any repeat of the serious trouble which occurred when an estimated 100,000 Rangers fans descended on the city five months ago.

He explained: "It's different clubs, different events and a different competition."

Different clubs indeed.

Gordon

Clearly the match commanders statement last night has now been spurned by the GMP press office otherwise they would not have made the statement to me this afternoon.

Kojo
In terms of the wee things have you noticed the number of goals Rooney gets by firing under/through the tackling leg?

Even his goal that was ruled offside, although it did not go under/through the tackle he held off shooting until after the tackle, took another touch and despatched the ball.

Dont know if its genius or just a technique he has perfected but he is bloody good at it.

They bassas at Manchester were checking out CQN before the game. I said Caldwell in midfield and Naka in a roaming role but supporting McDonald. O Shea said the coaching staff said exactly how we would play before the game and Man U were ready for it.

jinksayboy

You have to remember the Police's job is to help maintain peace not promote Celtic, so there statement is understandable.

If they do pass on congrats to Celtic, Celtic can always make it public.

It does not really matter, the difference is more than palpable.

From the club site:

Celtic fans are praised by Manchester police

Newsroom Staff

CELTIC fans have been praised for their behaviour by Manchester police as they provided another positive example to everyone on how to support their team regardless of the result.

Despite the disappointment of losing 3-0 to Manchester United at Old Trafford in the UEFA Champions League, the Celtic support further enhanced their excellent reputation and that of the Club during the visit to Manchester.

Match Commander Superintendent John Graves of Greater Manchester Police said: “I have no doubt that, for those Celtic fans who made the trip to Old Trafford for the Champions League fixture against Manchester United, it was a long and eventful day.

“Whilst I know the result of the game wasn't what Celtic fans would have wanted, the result of the overall event surely was. Any major sporting event is a challenge to police, and a sell-out crowd at one of the nation's largest stadiums for a game between two of Britain's greatest clubs, has to rank amongst the biggest.

“Making such events a success is not just down to the police and the clubs, it’s a responsibility of everyone involved, especially the supporters.

“As the Police Match Commander at Old Trafford, I would like to pass on my thanks to those Celtic fans who came to support their club in the finest traditions of genuine football fans, and ambassadors of Glasgow.

“From a policing and safety perspective, the game was a great success. There were very few incidents and arrests, and nothing that should detract from a great footballing occasion.

“I have to say that Celtic Football Club has every right to be proud of its fans. Those who braved the night in a windy and wet Manchester were a credit to the club.

“I would also like to compliment the Celtic stewards who helped tremendously throughout the game and added great value to the safety operation.

“We have a cliche in Manchester about the eyes of Europe being upon Old Trafford during these massive football games, and this was no exception.

“I believe that Celtic fans did a great deal to enhance not only the club's reputation across Europe, but also their own - well done.”

Celtic Chief Executive Peter Lawwell said: "I would like to thank our supporters for their magnificent behaviour in travelling to Manchester and supporting the team at Old Trafford.

"Once again, Celtic fans have shown themselves to be tremendous ambassadors for our club and our city and they have further enhanced the good name of Celtic Football Club in European football.

"Despite the disappointing result, they gave total backing to the team, recognising that the players had given everything in the game against the reigning European champions."

Off topic...

I am heading to Madrid for a bhoys footie weekend in november to see Real play Malaga (I think!). The flights & accomodation are all organised. Any tips for getting tickets? The Real website & other ticket sources I've seen online so far are extortionate.

Any recomendations re decent restaurants & "must see" attractions will be most welcome!

There has been alot of talk about the spending gulf between us and united and i have had a think about it

Van Der Sar - £1m approx
Neville - Youth System
Evans - Youth System
O'Shea - Youth System
Fletcher - Youth System

That is almost 1/2 a team who cost £1m all in- 4 of that team came through the youth system. A clear indication while they spend big they get the mix with academy players and the quality of the coaching is as big a factor as anything else

Paul @2.29

Thanks for that assurance.I should have known that John Hartson never had any difficulty stepping up to the plate.

I hope I am equally wrong about Paul Hartley

Fat Bhoy Tim CSC

That Chieftains documentary is in BBC2 Scotland tonight at 7 o'clock, for anyone interested. As I suspected, was just moved from Monday to allow them their regional programming remit, rather than the BBC hiding Irish music away in case it upset some culturally ignorant bears.

ThatsWhyWe'reParanoid?CSC

My dear,dear,dear,dear,dear,dear,friend... Auldheid.

A very shrewd observation,pal.
I, of course, did not pay any attention,so I am completely unaware whether Rooney has mastered an arcane approach to shooting or has not.

Probably,though ... it is the Latter.

Speaking of Rooney.

He is all that I would wish in a Striker, and, indeed, in any player.

He has the ability to take the Game to the Opposition.

Celtic, do not have a player with this ability, at the present time.

Oh, sure... I thought...check that... WE, all thought that, Master Brown had that something, as well..

Malheureusement, it turns out that it was a false dawn, as far as Master Brown is concerned... Mebbe.. in a Year or two,in his case, as he DOES have the glimmerings of SOMETHING~

Aiden of course...
SHOULD HAVE IT~

But, again... Whatever, he did have to offer, has now Wilted and Died.

Will it revive..?

Well, they say that Apples will grow, again...

So mebbe, jist mebbe, Aiden's Stunted Tree will bear fruit ..once more.

Let's Hope.

Howevvvvvvvvvvvvah....

Master Caddis SOITENLY DOES HAVE IT!

Ah tellya, pal.. Caddis could turn oot tae be the Messiah that we yearn fur...

Fur the sake of the club, Mr.Strachan et al..

GIE US CADDIS!

Post Scriptum:

Just was reminded by one of my cohorts..

WE do after awe, hiv a Player who has the POTENTIAL ..at least.. to take the Game to the opposition.

Georgie Bhoy!

Of course, very dilatory of me.. I completely forgot about him.

Sure, I like Georgier Bhoy..

and why not..

FOR HE IS IMPROVING.. and rapidly so.

Yes, He has that Something!

So...

He and Master Caddis, could change the face of our Attack.

Kojo.
yer pal...who likes yer style.

If Skippy played for anyone else, would we all consider him as one who goes down far too easily? Trippy?

Paul, I'm not saying we didn't but in talking about comparisons ICT did the basics far better against us than we did against united, and I am slightly concerned that in WGS's supposed crusade for good football he has equated that to small players... and on the coaching and fitness side... i think we may need to look at the csouting side as well... too many spl players have come and either not been given a chance or not impressed enough to get one... killen, riordan failed to repeat their other spl form

I suppose part of the problem is that for a lot of us Football/championship manager types this seems very basic

Book them for the Walfrid next March 17

paul67

feedback still coming in;

Thank you for writing to me about your concerns over the racial abuse
expressed at Celtic park on the 31/08/08.

I sympathise with you over this incident and believe that this sort of
racial behaviour should not be tolerated.
As to the breaking of the law, I must state that justice remains a
devolved matter, with most police powers and functions devolved to the
Scottish Parliament. As I understand it, the police have a duty to
uphold and enforce the law and maintain the peace. The Police
(Scotland) Act 1967 provides for the sharing of legal responsibility for
policing between Scottish Ministers, police authorities and Chief
Constables. Scottish Ministers have the overall responsibility for
policing policy.

I regret, therefore, that is it not within my direct remit as Member of
the European Parliament to deal with police matters. You may, however,
find it useful to write to your local MSP, who is Robert Brown in this
case. His details can be found at the following link:
http://www.scottish.parliament.uk/msp/membersPages/robert_brown/contact.
htm

Yours sincerely,

Elspeth Attwooll MEP

Aw Naw

I was not aware of the German rules, but what you say about them and the reasons why UEFA have been inneffective in tackling the issue in the past (back handers from Spain and Italy) does not surprise me in the least.

For me there is an implicit threat in the EU White Paper on Sport where the notion of the "specificity" of sport to keep Government out of it was dismissed by the EU parliament that the EU Government WILL act if football does not.

If you read the Ivo Belet report on the Future of Professional Football in Europe you can see that the civil powers that be have lots of concern about what is going on in the game. I'll provide a link to the relevant Belet report and EU White paper that embraced Belet's recommendations if you want to read up on it.

We are at one on the EEC anti competitive laws being a force for change as ECC employment law was in the Bosman case.

For me football has become uncompetitive BECAUSE of the UEFA policies that whilst perhaps not designed to be anti competitive do absolutely nothing to level a playing field that has become so tilted no one can defend doing nothing as an option.

My suggesting at handicapping would be a device to start to rein in those benefitting from anti competitive practice, but it would only be one tool in a grander strategy that already has other models for sustainable developent of competitive sport to draw on.

I would prefer that this happen by everyone agreeing that it is good for the game but my schadenfreude tendency would be more than satisfied if those in the EPL Month Python castle were turfed out for not paying their mortgage.

I'm not concerned who runs what emerges, as long as it is run on a sustainable and fair basis for the good of the game.

Antsman, “nothing more than bench fodder” is not a phrase I would use about a Celtic player, well most of them, anyway, but I do agree that Paul Hartley will not be first choice very often going forward.

Kojo, I agree 100% that Caldwell and Vennegoor have improved enormously since 12 months ago, but I would suggest that since 13 months ago, Aiden has also improved.

He has plateau’d since, but such is the way of athletic development. I would caution anyone against assuming Aiden McGeady does not have plenty of development still to take place. Especially after this erroneous assumption was so widespread not so long ago.

Mncelt, disagree on both points, I recorded Gary’s stature differently and think the decision to play him in central mid worked.

ML3inarow, an excellent observation, well done.

Emusanorphan :-)

A well timed contribution. That very subject was discussed on the bus home last night. When slings and arrows abound, the big picture is always welcome.

Lamartine, no worries.

Broadswordcallingdannybhoy, thanks for that update.

I know were all focussed on last night's game at the moment but I couldn't help notice the comment from Gordon smith today about Barry ferguson...he basically said Scotland had missed ferguson and as he was captain you'd expect him to go straight into the team.

Surely not pressure from SFA on burley to pick him as captain before any other rangers players spit the dummy?

It's can't be true that German teams are relegated if they are in debt. Borussia Dortmund have big debts.

I think its fair to say that only recently has WGS started to worry about or lack of physical presence. Please correct me if I am wrong but the decision to play Loovens at right back against ICT and Caldwell in midfield last night was borne out of a need to be more physically intimidating. Why now ? Loovens not being a RB and Caldwell not being a midfield player. This worries me a little as the injuries that we have had have been to forward players and I cant recall this being an issue before.

I also think that WGS talking up of Wilson is to imbue him with more confidence and reduce the pressure on Andreas Hinkel to get fit and to start performing at a level I know he is capable of. He has yet to show that for Celtic and looks very similar to how Massimo Donati´s signing is panning out. I am not writing both these players off yet but soon I will be.

WGS is very good at protecting his players but I cant help recalling MON having to throw in Marshall in a CL game against Barcelona and he did not let us down. Maybe like goalkeepers some of these guys would thrive at being handed the challenge. In some ways I find that more progressive than playing players out of their position. Lets face it Caddis done a good job on Ronaldhino. I dont think he would have been phase by it as much as Mark Wilson seem to have been going by his comments.

I hope it will be another interesting January transfer window for us. Another interesting statistic. Last time we played Man utd our defence was Boruc, Wilson Caldwell Mc Manus and Naylor... with Telfer coming on for Wilson .... sound familar but they didn´t have to contend with Ronaldo , Berbatov, Tevez and Nani

...anyway I dont want to be Bobby Darin so is there anybody else out there that believes that winning our next two home games and first away game in the CL in the next few weeks is a possibility ?

Hail HAil

Lubo

Im not so sure that the national team has any more games until February next year so Bazza should be back at his best by then.

Im sure George doesnt want to upset the bears any more than Duffield.

pablophanque on October 22, 2008 4:38 PM
Becks to AC ?

This might suit his missus as she is a bit of a Fashionista, but i hear they're also on the outs so maybe it exit stage right for Becks.

gsu

Awe Naw

Gordon often glows about Mark Wilson but he can not do one of the main things our system asks of him - deliver a decent cross, much like Naylor. And it seems Hinkel

Physical presence is more necessary when your limited technically. Teams like Arsenal and Barca don't have it and do pretty well

A wee something to cheer you up. There will be no need for masks or costumes at this halloween bash. It's quite simply a very scary thought:

http://www.followfollow.com/news/loadnews.asp?cid=TMNW&id=412640

No end of humour on FascistFascist

think bazza was talking about being ready for Argentina friendly...not sure when that is?

Just back from Manchester. Not got time or energy to read through the posts yet. Will take a couple of days to recover! Was anyone else in the Travel Inn hotel accross from Old Trafford before the game? What a laugh that was... A good sing song was had by all!

As for the game, it was summed up for me by them bringing on Teves for Berbatov while we brought on Sheridan for McDonald. A total gulf in class. My hope is that some form of Euro League with other smaller countries evolves in the coming years which would at least give us a platform to perform at a higher level. It's impossible for us to compete when we play at ICT on Saturday then Man U on the Tuesday.

Om a lighter note, the highlight for me was when we were penned in at the end and started a song to the tune of TFS, "We want to go home, We want to go home. Manchester Polis, We want to go home". Pure Class!!

Hail Hail
Jamiebhoy

Sir Paul

In answer to your answer...

Well,pal.. Mutual agreement in Two out Three ain't so bad.

Howevahhhhhhhhhh..

Please tell me true,why is this...

Have you evah,evah, noticed... that Aiden...and Indeed Naka...

Nevah evah Shine against Top Class Classers..

I forgot...Aiden did..Once... but that was Long ago and Far away...

And yet...

Gary has... Boruc Has... and even young Darren.

Hmmmmmmmmmmmm.

I am missing something here?

Aiden is a top cat in a house o' Budgies..

But, when he comes up agin a Bunch o' Eagles?

See whit ah mean!

If his Rep is Blooming..and I know that it shouldnae be... then I say by all means Cash in.. the Public is/are ayeways the last tae know.

Na..

If Aiden is awe that he is painted then he should be showing much more leadership.

He is...dare I say it... a TOOM TABARD!

Harsh..

But, to be honest.. How many other occasions will I get an opportunity,like now... to show off my knowledge of Scots folklore??? I couldnae resist,it ..pal.

O.K.... on reflection ... Mebbe, that phrase wiz a wee bit ower the Tap...

Consider the Toom Tabard, bit... erased... Bettah?

Kojo.

Aw Naw
Thanks for taht article. Got half way down but already see a flaw where it says

Manchester United v Celtic
Celtic are controlled by Dermot Desmond, an Irish financier, so are foreign owned, fitting the third model, that of a traditional powerhouse attracting new investment. Desmond's board has reduced debt but in Celtic's first two Champions League matches this season six of the 13 starting players were foreign.

Apart from the fact that there is a strong personal connection between DD and Celtic, something that cannot be said in many other cases, Celtic as it says have little debt but more importantly do not depend on the owner to finance player purchases and wages.

In not making that point or the one you made about the financial constraints that Bayern work under, the article completely misses the point about why ownership is now an issue.
Its not the ownership my EPL bleaters its the debt that is unservicable if it were not for the presence of those owners that has tipped the balance.

The idea of football is not like business and put your competition under, its to win in an evenly contested way. If UEFA want to argue that its a sport when the EU try to get involved they need to do much more to reinstate sporting principles.

Kojo

I once was your allie,i very much still am.
As the shorter days,and longer nights approached.
On Guido's night we await the banging of the squib.

Alas my own aparatus exploded.
The aparatus doctor said that i should begin at the begining.
A change would therefore occur.

My idendity would be lost.

But like the apples i would grow again.

Harry's Bhoy has grown not from the seed of Harry,but from the seed of the leprechaun who backed the black horse.

HB who is still yer pal.

Tobi Legend,

I refer you to page 15

http://wga.dmz.uni-wh.de/wiwi/file/DownloadPaper/football-in-crisis.pdf

What´s interesting is that they do not within this paper mention the clubs that have failed the strict licensing policy of the DFB over the years. Part of the problem here is that TV deals that were negotiated partly by DFB fell through (its explained in this paper which I do urge you to read) they have therefore recently taken a more relaxed view to exceptions to the rule due to Kirsch (TV company doing an ITV digital on them)

If say an Abramovich type was to come in and rescue Dortmund they (as you´ll see in the paper) come under much more restrictive practices than say what Chelsea, Man U, Liverpool, Real Madrid and Barcelona get away with.

Hail Hail

My dear,dear,dear,dear,dear,dear,dear,dear,dear,dear,friend.. Harry's Bhoy.

I know you!

How could ah no know ye?

Good that ye are back.

The Black Horse?

Doing Great!

Canny Miss!

Waita tilla da enda!

Foist quarter of 2010... you'll see!

Kojo.
yer pal .. who likes ye the bestest.

Paul67,

With regards the bigger picture and us looking forward, when likely do you see this happening? From where i'm sitting we have benn saying this for the past couple of years and we are discussing the same issues with regards the team. We are no further forward.

Gordon seemed quite "content" with the players he's got we are told. Yet we are hearing different tonight. If i hear the ability about pass the ball etc.. from him again i will scream. He's the one that plays the like of McManus's, Naylors and Wilson's of this
world that are prone to losing possession or giving it away.

The upcoming CIS cup game should be used to allow the guy's bursting for a chance, and if they perform they should be kept in. Time for new personnel to be allowed the chance.

Kojo

Your last summations few summations are very accurate.

The stars of Aiden and Artie Bhoy are not shining so brightly.

We should cash in.

Fact, thats twice in a six week period that
the opposition fans have sang to Celtic fans
"This is so effen easy, oh this is so effen easy"
Well, if that don't set off alarm bells ringing
from the board down through the management team
then nothing will.
A big well done to the travelling support, for
a job well done, considering the result.

Auldheid,

Re: Celtic Samuels the journalist imho is just pointing out that Platini (the boss of UEFA) is opening up a can of worms that really UEFA need to keep a lid on. He is one of the elite EPL journoes and will naturally defend the EPL´s right to do what has been done under the auspices and with UEFA´s blessing for 50 years already. That we shouldn´t be surprised about, but if UEFA were to bring in a rule that a foreigner cannot own a football club then he quite rightly points out that DD has an Irish passport. It´s a problem that UEFA are singularly not qualified to deal with. They have created the monster. It is their monster but due to abject management lack of vision and more tellingly greed they are now worried about cutting their own throat. At losing their golden cow. Personally I think UEFA needs to be split into different organisations. It´s remit is too big. An amateur body a professional body and an elite body. They will never let go. You need to think how the Italian mafia would react in a similar situation and that will be akin to how UEFA react.

Kojo
I find myself agreeing with your comments almost totally, again, thats the third time this year!
However I think some of our players deserve a little more time to show their worth but I suppose they have to January as it stands.
I also ask myself if perhaps their talents are not being developed properly by our esteemed coaching staff who you always defend stoutly, although your stance on young Caddis for example, suggests you may have some doubts, not to mention O´Dea.
What has really bothered me lately is the statement by our Chairman at the AGM, which I could not attend as I am on holiday, which suggests to me that we should not harbour any dreams of lifting the big cup ever again due to these "big teams" we have to face. Mr Stein would never have been employed by these pygmies and I personaly wish we had a different type of billionaire as our majority shareholder.

Hail Hail

Caught a radio advert there for 'Scottish Debt Experts' one of these 'We will solve your debt' companies the voice over man sounds very much like Mr Moonbeams himself.

Sylvinho starts for Barcelona.

My dear,dear,dear,dear,dear,dear,dear,dear,dear,friend... Harry's Bhoy.

As Regards Boruc and Aiden.

Both of these chappies are good fine players, no question.

What I am endeavouring to point out is... that in ONE case... the player is on the wane..and in the other... he will fall short of expectations.

Just like a Stock...

There is a time to Let go.

I do not believe that Boruc will improve, on the contrary.. I believe his star has started to flicker.
Still a good Goalie...but, no longer a Bank on..take him home tae yer folks..kinda guy~

Aiden... again.. a good player...

But..

Is very over- valued,like soiten stock..

Time tae cash in, before the theatre crowd leaves the theatre.

Makes sense tae me~

Kojo.
yer pal...who like sye the bestest o the best.

Aw Naw-

Page 15 of that paper just makes it clear that the only qualification is that you are judged to be capable of servicing your debt. Dortmund have been in trouble since the Bosman ruling came in. Their debts are now 57% of the total value of the club, and that is an improvement on a few years back. Schalke also have a serious debt proble. Bayern, SV Hamburg and Werder Bremen are debt free.

This site looks at 25 of Europe's top clubs. Have a look at the debt to value ratios..........particularly Valencia !

http://www.forbes.com/lists/2008/34/biz_soccer08_Manchester-United_340001.html

My dear,dear,dear,dear,dear,dear,friend... Patsean

Loverly monniker!

Two of my favourite names.. in fact.. I always say that my name should have bin, Pasquale, but the registrar ..couldnae spell it...so, a compromise wiz reached... and to my Italian friends... that name is what I am known by.

Anyway,Thanks for your agreeing tae agree with me, I gladdens my Cockles...( Whit?...ed)( It is no whit you think,pal...so wheeeshet!)

I am now going out for my morning Breaker, accompanied by my lady of choice.

See ya latah.

Kojo.
yer pal ... who likes ye a loat.

So a few days ago a coworker, who's father is a Rangers supporter, thought it would be funny to add my personal email to the RFC spam list. Hilarious. Anyway, immediately unsubscribing seems to have had no effect since I just received the following in my inbox from Captain Barry Ferguson Himself:

Dear Rangers Supporter,

It was a fantastic feeling to pull on a Rangers jersey again at Love Street yesterday and I really enjoyed the run out.

I had been looking forward to the reserve game and my ankle is now as strong as it can get. I played just over an hour in our 3-0 win and it felt good so hopefully I'll get another game next week.

I felt sharp but I can get sharper. I'm as fit as I can be in terms of running and my ankle won't get any stronger but match-sharpness is a totally different thing and I think I'll need two or three games before I'm up to scratch.

It has been hard not playing because football is my life but I did all the rehab I was told to do.

It has been frustrating watching the first team in action from the sidelines but I am almost ready to return and it will be great to play in midfield with the likes of Pedro Mendes, Steven Davis and Kevin Thomson again.

My main aim is to get as sharp as I can and then maybe get back to start against Inverness Caley on Saturday 1 November as the gaffer has mentioned that previously.

Thank you for your support
-BF

Awww, that's so sweet that they send out love notes to their fan base. Why don't we get equally silly, contrived emails from our squad?

However truth be told, if I were an actual Rangers supporter, I couldn't agree with him more when he says "it has been frustrating watching the first team in action". At least they can take solace in the fact their reserve squad exacted revenge on St. Mirren for making them look absolutely foolish over a fortnight ago.

According to BBC radio this morning, their first two goals had "a suspicion of offside". A mere soupcon, as it were. Offside-lite.

Celtic Squad:

Boruc ( Needs competition from a new No 2 to give us back our best keeper)

Wilson( Injuires have taken their toll. No longer the player we signed, needs replaced)

Naylor(one season wonder, needs replaced)
McManus( Fortunats journey that has taken him to where he is. mediocre player and needs replaced.)
O'Dea( Must be given a chance to stake claim)
Loovens(Jury Out)
Caddis( Must be given chance. See O'Dea)
Hinkel (Jury out for me still, Has to start showing though)
Gary Caldwell( Has shown over the past 10 months can move to another level, New contract and potential new captain)

Marc Crosas( build my team around him, Stay)
Scott Brown( Improving, more to come Stay)
Barry Robson(Stay)
Hartley(Lived the dream but surplus)
Donati (Surplus, has the ability though)
Naka(leaving end of season)
McGeady (Stay and must start showing the player we know he is)
Maloney(Must start showing the player we know he is)

JVOH(Cash In, Jol a big admirer )
McDonald(Cash in especially if Everton stories were true)
Sammi(Stay and )

Looks like Crosas is out for a month, could be that Cauldwell stays in his Cauldalele role as noted before.

ShanghaiHoops

Inverness would be my choice for BF comeback game they do a strange welcome up there.

mncelt @ 3.55

I agree with both points re Caldwell. While wholly accepting that he had a great game. I'd have much rathered he had this quality of game in his preferred position where he would have been able to use the ball better than either of our other Centre Halfs.

I saw one slight weekness in his game as being some of his distribution, in particular not always moving the ball to wide players quickly. I do not blame him for this. He is nota Central Midfielder.

I'd have much rather had Hartley in anchor role and Caldwell at the back, but hey what do I know!

Hail Hail
Jamiebhoy

Tobi Legend,

I have no doubt whatsoever that the Karl Heinz Rummenigges of this world present the best possible case for them at every turn.

In quoting page 18-19 of the same document it says

"while Munich is highly profitable and successful, its major national opponents are in severe financial distress. BVB as well as Schalke 04 have completed securitization deals in order to fund their recent losses. Moreover, Dortmund has just recently avoided the obligation for bankruptcy by buying its stadium back from a consortium of investors who, had to renounce to interest payments of several million €"

The rest of the bundesliga clubs are in a pretty good state financially ? Now answer me why is this ? I´ll tell you why the DFB dont and wouldn´t make such extravagent allowances for them as they do for the top 6. Sound familar ?

The bottom line is that BVB and Shalke can pull down the whole DFB. The reason being that they have not stuck by the DFB´s own strict regulations and that Bayern München dont want to lose these opponents

What can I say imagine, David Murray saying thats it folks I´m out of here Rangers exist no more. I reckon Celtic and the SFA would come running to their rescue.

If your still not convinced I can get you a copy of the DFB offical rules and regulations permitting to this. I dont expect you to read it and I certainly wont be translating it. LOL ;-)

Hail Hail

Aw naw
The natural tendency of any organisation is to first of all look after itself often at the expense of its original reason for being. UEFA have certainly tried to do that and banning foreign ownership is not the answer if that is Platini's basic suggestion.

My point is that it matters not a jot about the nationality of the owner, what matters is how much he is prepared to underwrite the debt or on what terms he injects the necessary funds. Maybe that is Platini's point and it got lost (deliberately?) in translation, it is hardly rocket science.

But there are more ways to bring balance back into the game without banning anyone, just change the financial rules so that only football generated income is allowed to develop the football business.
All other businesses do that. Even when they borrow, what they borrow is paid back from what the business earns as a business.

What are Chelsea, Liverpool, Man Utd's, Arsenal's loan agreements? Are they the kind of commercial agreement any club could enter into or are there features that give these clubs an unfair competitive advantage over other clubs? What are the pay back periods, what kind of interest do the loans attract. Surely these questions must be asked in the interest of fair competition?

Defining what is and is not acceptable to spend on players is not beyond the wit of those charged with governing football, but unless there is outside pressure (the EU government)to put its house in order UEFA will not act.

EPL teams have had SKY money for a few years now but it was not SKY money that created the gulf that now clearly exists in the EPL itself, it was oligarch money from outside the game that is responsible for the now massive gulf that manifests in non competition on the field like last night (and on Sunday when Man Utd played West Brom or Chelsae played Middlesbrough.)

The will to change has been missing which is why I would welcome a few Gretna type meltdowns in the EPL and elsewhere to allow football authorities the panic environment in which to introduce the sustainable proper debt management measures that otherwise will never see the light of day. The Lloyds takeover of HBOS is an example of the kind of thing that happens when chaos reigns.

Aw Naw
I agree Celtic would be amongst the first to stave off Rangers going under if not positively certainly not by being negative to proposals. That of course just emphasisse the point that football is not a business business where if a rival goes under the business picks up the rivals customers. Football is a business that NEEDS rivals to succeed as a business.

This is the INESCAPABLE dynamic the makes football unique and which is being overlooked by business type business men.
Sooner or later under normal unfettered business dynamics the most business minded of teams would have no one to play - and go out of business.

Its time for the pendulum to swing back.

How about trying this-

Scotland, Portugal, Holland and Belgium reduce their premier leagues to 6 teams.

Celtic play each of the other Scottish teams 4 times, making 20 games.

The league then splits into top 3 and bottom 3.

Each of the top 3 Scottish teams play home and away against each of the top 3 teams in Holland, Belgium and Portugal. These games would count for points in the Scottish league.

The bottom 3 play home and away against the bottom 3 in the other 3 countries.

Total games 38.

There would still be a Scottish league and that should keep UEFA happy.

Our fixture list would be more attractive.

Relegation would be one up and one down.

Tobi Legend,

what does that table mean that Celtic are worth 227 million dollars and that our debt stands at 11% of that value i.e almost 25million dollars ?

Auldheid,

I agree entirely with your desires. I reckon your desires and UEFA´s are completely at odds with one another. UEFA is only interested in preserving the status quo or empowering their own position.

The EC and UEFA will never be unable to agree on this. They would need to solve the problem is a plc a sports club or a business for starters? By the time those two bodies have solved that one alone the new Wembley will be akin to the Colosseum.

I believe that money and the need for expansion will drive through any new changes UEFA and teh EC will follow having been dictated to by large corporate entities that effectively own these clubs

Hail Hail

Auldheid,

if Celtic got an invite to a new elite UEFA 20 team pan european league with a guaranteed income of say 75 million a year and Rangers didn´t. Would Celtic care? Its all about circumstance and the lay of the land at the time.

HAil HAil

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/europe/7684738.stm

BBC pundits view of last night

I see Alan Hutton has been making friends down South:)

Sorensen slams Hutton challenge
Thomas Sorensen
Sorensen joined Stoke from Aston Villa in the summer

Stoke goalkeeper Thomas Sorensen has said he was a millimetre from losing his sight following a challenge by Tottenham's Alan Hutton on Sunday.

The Dane was substituted because of a head wound in the second half of the 2-1 win over bottom-of-the-table Spurs.

Sorensen, 32, claimed the full-back, who was booked for the incident, could have avoided colliding with him.

"It was a millimetre off me losing my sight and it is miraculous there is no more damage," said Sorensen.

Sorensen, who joined the Potters in the summer on a three-year deal from Aston Villa, revealed he needed stitches in his eye socket.

"We are at a stage where it is not funny any more," added the former Sunderland goalkeeper.

"He could have avoided hitting me. He had no chance to reach the ball but he still threw himself into it, leading with his studs.

"The doctor has done a very good job so my face is not totally destroyed."

Dirty bassa

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/teams/s/stoke_city/7683556.stm

Tobi,

A good idea. Certainly more attractive than the SPL. I think if it was to any negative impact on the revenue that UEFA make from their own prestigious competitions they would never ratify it.

imagine - a team had score 2 offside goals against Manu , Arsenal or Aston Villa eg - do you think Fergie, Wenger and O'neil would ignore it? Exactly!! immediately after the match they would be furious and let the world know that incompetency cost them points .

Do you think Stein would have been as subdued after those mistakes? - WHF!

Celtic are slowly being beaten into an inferiority complex team who will accept defeat - I want an out and out WINNER , regardless of the financial power of other teams or the prima donas as their disposal.

Read Mark Mcghee comments from Awe Naw No Annonoi , 7.56pm - he gets it! Celtic were more than a match for United until those goals were allowed to stand - at 2-0 manu naturally and psychologically were cruising as celtic were deflated.

shocking decisions at the highest level in football - CELTIC STAND UP AND RESPECT YOURSELF!!!

PS Sorry lads , i'm still not over it

Aw naw
In those circumstances no, but in context of keeping an ailing SPL alive yes. It depends on what best serves one's interests, often that can be what serves others. In football that is a factor that a normal business has no concern for.

stebhoy @ 8:09

Sorry, but I couldn't disagree more.

I felt WGS was hurting, both by the manner of the defeat as well as the dodgy decisions. However, I felt he handled the post match interview with great digbity and was open and fullsome in his praise of the better team. We cannot blame this result on referees or linesmen.

The fact is in the last 2 years we have been unbelievably lucky to get into the last 16. This is no criticism of us - it is simply an honest appriasal that the big boys are starting to leave us behind. Their resources are on a different planet. This is not an inferiority complex - it is the ability to take the green tinted specs off and see what is obvious to most unbiased observers.

I hate to say it but UEFA cup is about our level until either UEFA impose new regs around debt or (even better), the English football bubble implodes. Maybe the credit crunch will save football

Hail Hail,

DC

stebhoy,

Scott Brown´s disallowed goal against Aalborg
Wrong AAlborg player being sent off

Villareal´s free kick that led to their goal

2 offside goals last night

Lee Naylor penalty against Milan at Celtic Park

Ryan Giggs penalty two years ago

Bobo Balde penalty in Lyon

Lubos Michel incompetent performance from start to finish in Seville

Amoruso´s dive for the penalty in Turin

RapidviennareplayCSC

Gary Caldwell penalty against spartak

Aw Naw
If UEFA are only interested in looking after themselves but in failing to take the sort of action I am suggesting/desire they get replaced by corporates, then UEFA are not really interested in looking after themselves are they?

If you are saying UEFA are too stupid too recognise the way the wind is blowing and do not use their unique position as governors of the game in Europe to make sure that they are still sitting around the new football world table then that is a different argument from saying they only want to serve themseleves.

You may well be right about their stupidity but again in my experience any organisation has the capability to emulate the characteristics of a living organism that will evolve to suit the environment in which it has to exist.

Its a question of whether the UEFA stupid gene is stronger than the UEFA smart gene.

I have to say that on the evidence of Blatter and Platini's efforts so far (which suggests they come from the same gene pool as Gordon Smith),the odds are on the stupid gene.

Howevahh..... (cheers Kojo) it would be wrong to be certain that life's longing for itself will not in the end prevail.

I think GS was wise not to say publicly that Utd only won because of dodgy decisions. We play them again in two weeks, as it is they will expect to come here and turn us over.......... but who knows if they are a bit complacent, we get behind the team, and our players react to the hurt of those decisions that GS will be emphasising behind closed doors.

Lets look forward, we beat Man U 1-0, Villareal draw in Aalborg.We beat Aalborg 1-0, Utd beat Villareal 2-1. We beat Villareal 2-0 Utd beat Aalborg 4 -0.

Man U 13pts
Villareal 8pts
Aalborg 2pts
Legends 08 10pts

It could happen.......couldn't it.....

Auldheid,

I´m with you all the way. The game has outgrown those that hope to control it. We´ll sit on the sidelines and watch what happens. Lets hope that Celtic finally get the breaks that they deserve no matter what. Why does my experience tell me otherwise ?

gotta go

Have a good night

Hail Hail

Belfastbhoy @ 5:35

And not just ICT.

DeepingCeltic

Manu are and should be a better team than Celtic - but rememeber this - Celtic is a GREAT club with a phenominal history.

We should never ever accept those types of decisions lightly - by all means be complimentary of some fine football played against us - but WGS should have let the world know that Glasgow Celtic were seriously angry about losing illegal goals! If Ferguson was the Celtic manager he would be ranting about this - why ?? not because he can change it .....but because he can perhaps influence better officiating the next time around - "we are a team to be taken seriously"

Aw Naw - more examples of where we laid down and accpeted!

If we want to be taken seriously in any competition we need to take ourselves and this great club seriously again!

All this "UEFA is our level" may be true from a financial POV , but from a respect/stature/institution POV we are world class - every celtic manager, player should be aware of this!

hail hail

Dermot Desmond does not own Celtic.

He is the major shareholder, which is a different thing altogether.

In any conflict, he would merely just have to shed some shares, if necessary.

Kojo
I'm with Paul on McGeady. I think he still lacks maturity physically and mentally, but just as he has reached his present level by maturing in both respects, I think he can do so again.

He needs to eat more porridge.

More a Tabard waiting to be filled out.

stebhoy,
totally agree, we must be one of the best performing companies in scotland, and the UK, I'm surprised self respect needs to be highlighted, but we appear to be too demure when it comes to equality.
WE ARE CELTIC, STRONG, JUST AND RIGHTEOUS, SING IT LOUD AND SING IT PROUD.

Auldheid

I'm with Kojo on this one. Aiden attracted many suitors after his display against AC Milan.

Many would have seen him as an outstanding prospect worth the investment.
The likes of Andy Gray have stated that they think that he is too slight for the EPL.We should cash in before this view becomes common place.
He has not shone against top class opposition since then.
Some of his performances in The Glasgow Derby have been very poor.All the current bun's that i know,don't fear him.
That say's it all really.

Kojo has a point.Sell now before his share price falls.

Can anyone tell me what the age limit for Child season tickets is?

mrorspicious

Which songs are you referring to - the sound quality on ITV was pretty good and I didnt hear anything offensive.

Can you expand on the songs

mrorspicious

you may be depressed and embarrassed by our supporters last night.

I am proud of them and proud to have been amongst them.

Our behaviour has once again been widely praised.

Each to their own I suppose.

Barca 5-0 up in Basle

Chelsea 1-0 v Roma

Liverpool 1-0 A Madrid

I have to say I feel that over a long period many peoples assessments of O'Dea have been rather overly rosy. They tend to be based on his playing-out-of-skin CL games and overlook the fact that he has often looked shaky in SPL games. I have rarely seen such a huge well of good will towards a player who is not an especially standout prospect. In the reserve games I have seen he hasn’t the obvious stand out talent that JFK had pre-injury or the obvious exceptional talent of Caddis or even the very clear natural raw talent you can see in Sheridan (although his time is not yet IMO).

To me Darren doesn’t look an especially brilliant prospect although decent. To me he has many of the strengths and weaknesses of McManus. I can see a number of weaknesses in his game which are likely those that are the source of WGS's apparent lack of faith in him. For a tallish lean athletic looking guy he is very short of pace. Worse still he has no change of pace and is easy victim to this in others. This IMO is the reason why he looked good in the CL games when it was like Zulu/the Alamo with no space behind him but has looked easily beaten by a player turned and facing him in SPL games (almost always overlooked by his enthusiasts) when we are pushed up. That is also the reason why he will never be a LB.

He also has a flaw that is common with left sided players - he is more one sided than is the case typically in right footed players. I don’t by that mean that he has poor control on his right foot (he doesn’t) but he does appear to be very left-balanced and very weak (tends to be caught on his heels) when a tricky player passes to his right or even if he has to cover threats to his right.

Now don’t get me wrong, he is good enough for SPL/Championship level football career right now and probably has it in him to be as good as McManus (faint praised lol) but is it worth a season or so of allowing him to learn by mistakes if that is what he turns out to be - as good as McManus and rather similar in many ways. I really cant see any qualities that are much better than McManus and think those who were claiming he is our best CH were well wide of the mark.

I have a very strong feeling that WGS agrees with a lot of my blurb here in this post.

Atletico 1 -1 Liverpool

Donetsk 0-1 Sporting

I've had time to think and my mump is:-

Naka, McGeady and McDonald all perform better when Maloney is on the park because they usually have an out, Maloney on from the start. Anyone of them to replace him or each other.
Hartley has a garanteed engine for 1 hour and a brain, on from the start, bring Brown on for him last 30 mins.
Robson instead of Naylor, I've liked left back Robson since I seen him there.
Donti in the middle, with a flat back four, drop anyone except the new left back :oD

hindsight is a dawdel innit

Mr Gordon Strachan chose his best 11, and if they had all played the way we have seen them play, we would have hammered that lot last night, but it wasnt to be.
Confidence is delicate and players perform as good as they feel, if they dont feel good they dont play good, some buck that trend and perform better when fighting, but they all love encouragement.
I want my manager to back me first, when people condemn me I expect a trial and a defence.
GO ON Mr GORDON STRACHAN.

You were at the match and I dont doubt you

Those songs were not heard on the radio or tv and have not been highlighted anywhere. While im not doubting they might have been sung it couldnt have been enough voices for the TV to hear so I doubt the locals would have heard or been offended.

Also FF was trumping on about the Soldiers Song so they were obvlivious to these other songs and add ons.

Len Brennan

Re. Hutchinson, I wrote the following in my Match Report after the Inverness game:

"3. Have watched quite a few reserve games this season and my thoughts are:
Brown........Always capable of good saves but just isn't good enough to be the back-up.
O'Dea........ Head and shoulders above the rest and worry that he will realise his potential elsewhere.
Caddis....... Captain and a special player (could not believe he wasn't picked to-day)
McCourt........Now looking a lot fitter and showing some delightful touches and awareness. His first goal for Celtic was a beauty.
Hutchinson.....Have seen him score good goals and has a strong, physical presence but there is a certain lackadaisical approach which means that I wasn't too surprised to find that he was not included in the pool to-day."

I didnt hear any of those songs and the TV was at a loud volume.

Very similar to a post on Saturday night. rPR

Dalgety bhoy
My daughter has an under sixteen concession season ticket.
My mate has an under eighteen ticket for his son, which is more expensive than my daughters but still not full price.
So I think its under 16 for full concession.

mrorspicious

where you not more upset with the you the rearangers in disguise?

pee off back to blue blog.com

Suspicious of mrorspicious....???

mrorspicious
why bring the fans into disrepute when they have been praised by everyone police, man utd,etc think your post is a bit suspicious

Mr suspicious

lurker indeed. You know and I know that the songs debate was not really advanced lastnight. I suspect you are stirring. The most offensive song sung lastnight was "YNWA".
You know, the guy next to me shouted out "Get intae these ba$&"£^$" - I found that offensive and potentially racist. Perhaps we should just ban all fans and all songs?

We'll rue the day that we publically whinged about the famine song (as if it is deserving of a title). I find that as embarrassing as those who look for favourable comparisons from the Manchester police. Let that mob get on with their own thing, they'll hoist themselves with their own. They don't need us to help them.

mrorspicious

As you say the songs debate has been done to death on here and the opinions on what is ok or not have varied across the spectrum

Following the Match Commanders statement on behaviour today he and his officers couldnt have heard it or decided any songs sung were not offensive. I was also under the impression Celtic took their own stewards down and would expect them to have taken action and at least identified the seats occupied by the songsters.

Im not the biggest celtic supporter out there either - just in my blood my heart and my soul and I cant ever remember being embarrassed by either the team or my fellow supporters.

mrorspicious

if you're not that big of a Celtic fan, why do you bother going to the matches.

mrorspicious,
funny you shoud say that, I was chatting to some people at work (manchester)about that. They were not surprised at the behaviour of the Celtic Support last night. They expect poeple to sing offensive songs, they dont like it but they expect it.
what they dont expect is peeple, loyal subjects, turning up and ransacking businesses, treating public highways as sewers, treating railway lines as lublic paths and singing songs which break every racist law in the book.
But saying that, thers no need to rub their noses in it eh ?

I THINK THEY BRITS PREFER US, DONT YOU ?

dobberspicious

see you on saturday at the fives?

anyone know if the killie cup game is on the TV next wednesday

By Awe_Naw_No_Annoni_Oan_Anaw_Noo on October 22, 2008 5:57 PM
...anyway I dont want to be Bobby Darin so is there anybody else out there that believes that winning our next two home games and first away game in the CL in the next few weeks is a possibility ?

*Yip I do and doing a wee bit of math here and I figure that given a few breaks we can finish on 10 points. Manure also on 10 and Villareal with 13, not enough tae get intae the last 16 but more than enough for a run in UEFA.

By stebhoy on October 22, 2008 8:09 PM
imagine - a team had score 2 offside goals against Manu , Arsenal or Aston Villa eg - do you think Fergie, Wenger and O'neil would ignore it? Exactly!! immediately after the match they would be furious and let the world know that incompetency cost them points .
Do you think Stein would have been as subdued after those mistakes? - WHF!

*The Big Mhan went ballistic tae his pal Shanks after we had a legit goal disallowed at Annfield which would have taken us tae the final at Hampden,

By mrorspicious on October 22, 2008 9:09 PM
long time lurker, very occasional poster. regarding the support, some among them last night made a depressing evening even worse for me…………………….
*Oh dear someone left the fascist fascist door open again

Darren O'Dea is good anaw

Cheers, Lynott 67

Dalgety Bhoy
Whiskeyinthejar CSC

? dobberspicious

i am now going to ignore you ;) KTF

I had a browse through that Celtic Opus thingy

i thought it was a wee book about celtic ...limited edition ...so it said

i thought 100 sheets or thereby

hells fire

£1700 for the cheapest one and it is a half metre square ...does anyone know what this is all about ???...hardly something to read on the train

Surely the time to sell Boruc and Aiden is when they are going to command a top price. Selling them after they have had (according to the sell now brigade) a bad match, would mean accepting a lower fee. Kojo usually advises that you don't buy a player whom a club desperately wants to sell.

As for selling high to uninformed buyers, they saw the same match you saw last night. What makes you think they are less informed than you are of Aiden and Artur's worth?

As for me, I hope they stay at Celtic and continue to prove you all wrong. Again.

After watching your game last night and then the A. Madrid v Liverpool game tonight when the linesmen contrived to make last nights incumbents look good it seems that while Scottish officials are still as bad as ever it isn't only a Scottish problem.

Edward

Didnt see the Liverpool game but our belgian officials made 3 bad errors giving 2 offside goals and kncking one off that wasnt.

In a league that generates the revenue that the CL does its a disgrace.

The EPL refs made many glaring errors at the weekend too and on Monday night

PF Ayr.

It does look good though, £3500 for the limited limited 'Icon' version.

A coffee table book? Yip a book that is a coffee table.

How many of the Opus books do we need to buy to generate the money for a left back?

mrorspicious,
would you like to be our censor? :oD

you tonight have surpassed all before you, there is now an order placed for the diamond toilet roll holder, the amount of alomst you are going to copy will be nearly. Technology is a curse as well as a trophy, hope your sad little attack comeS crashing in on you.

CELTIC SING LOUD SING PROUD. (but add an apparantly)

apparantly mrorspicious is sits to urinate and bleeds once a month

Havent made any comments re last nite but read the blog and cant believe som eof the comments and where do some of these posters come from, havent seen their names before

agree 2 bad decisions and wgs was honorouble but mibbee should have said more but i am sure he was as disappointed as the rest and as for getting rid of aiden and arthur WHIT!!

setting free the bears
agree with you on that, they are our two outstanding talents and we couldnt replace them, 2 decent full backs would do...

well beaten but the supporters the club, the manager are magnificent, now is the time for us to make sure no heads go down on saturday
everybody stand up for the champions

4iarcsc

Anybody know about the killie game ...on Tv or not

Jinkysboy :- In tonights game it was three chalked off, two for A. Madrid and one for Liverpool. All were onside with one Madrid effort around 4 feet onside. It was a pretty decent game with goals, incidents and a couple of missed chances. I thought the crowd were quiet at the start but they got a lot louder nearer the end of the game when Madrid were pressing for an equaliser. I'm not sure whether the crowd lifted the team or vice versa.

PF
yip wed bbc

jinkysboy

Maybe we could just stick the opus book in the left back position, im sure it would stop more crosses

My dear,dear,dear,dear,friend... TheManfrom...@ 9.26.

I agree with you, chummy.

Darren, is only a slight improvement on Mr.McManus.

There is not between them heading ability, which tells the tale.

According, to my friends, who know these sorta things, Darren has a way to go...could be a late, late developer, but his slowness of turn and equally slowness of foot,precludes him from evah,evah, being an all out Winning Golden Bhoy.

Now on the other hand...

The best C.B. prospect..excluding, the up and comers in the Yoof System... is

Mr. Cuthbert.

I believe he could be the answer, we have bin searching for.

At the Moment, he has been drafted to St. Mirren.. and I have not had any reports on how he is faring.
However, a good Seasoning Season, with a S.P.L. Struggler, could go a long way in bringing Master Cuthbert to an earlier fruition.

Kojo.
yer pal .....who likes ye.

kik

cheers

thought i would have to try and source a ticket for that midden
i`ve been engaged in a boycott since their behaviour towards us 06-07 season

kikinthenakas

I watched Strachan on tv as the camera was on him a right few times in the last 20 mins.

I thought he was deep in thought and one issue on his mind would be his press conference - and I agree that blowing a gasket about the offsides would not only have looked like sour grapes despite it being fact , but would also have given Fergie the newspaper cutting to pin on the Manure dressing room board and wind his team up in a fortnight. Our best chance then is that they read the press saying different class and as such underestimate us.

And as one who said sell THG and AMcG last June I would love them to do the business in two weeks and believe both are well capable- I didnt say sell them based on last night. I meant that sometimes you have to cash in when the time is right.

Edward

How did Liverpool compare to Manure and Arsenal on last nights performances (given that manure were playing an SPL team !!!)

Kojo

watched Cuthbert playing against the hun

tidy and capable

he wasn`t up against much as they were really bad

smell the glove

At least it would provide some competition for LN and if he stood on it less diagonal balls would sail over his head

excathedra44 on October 22, 2008 12:20 PM i enjoyed your take on last night and agree with your observations.

It really annoys me to see guys getting a game for Celtic when they shouldn't be any where near the jersey,I accept that even with two full backs fit to wear the hoops then we still would probably have lost but what is not acceptable is that there ios no visable improvement in our back four since Gordon came in the door.

Kojo have to disagree with you re Aiden.In the recent Villareal tie Aiden had a good game and in no shape or form looked out of place.

I hate to think what i would have watched had Aiden not been in our team these pasr few seasons.

Home grown talent with a love for the strip and everthing we stand for only comes along so often. Ah could count on ma two hands the players av watched over 40 odd year who would fit the bill,Aiden fits it,ah love im and would never sell him.

jinksyboy
I kinda agree that you have to know when to sell (see the markets) but both those playrs are on long term contracts and have shown loyalty to us, we dont really need the money and suppose you got a conservative £12m do you think we could get any better, I would doubt that, do we have anyone better at the club, definetly not, do they love the hoops...100%, thats what we want and need, they know all about 4IAR and what it means

Barcelona win away 0-5

Goalscorers

Leo Messi (joined age 13)
Sergi Busquets Burgos (joined age 17)
Bojan Krkic (joined age 16)
Xavi Hernandez (joined age 11)

Also in the line up were Carles Puyol and Víctor Valdés.

All were brought up learning football the Barcelona way from an early age.

Get the right type of kid in early and teach them right.

We should be doing the same thing.

They also put out a rather small team tonight.

Kikinthenakas

IF we were offered around £10m each I wouldnt think the club would turn it down. We may not need it like rankers did / do to survive but to strengthen the team overall without taking on debt.

I see McGeady and Maloney as similar and would be happy to lose Aiden for £10m now Shaun is back. As far as THG goes - no replacement springs to mind right now but sure with that kinda cash we should be able to get a solid keeper for £3-4m.

The other £16m could bring in 4 or 5 quality players.

estadio

fair enough

but

Krkic and Busquets` fathers played for Barca

Xavi is a boyhood fan from Barca

and they spent a fortune bringing Messi and his family from Argentina

Difficult to replicate

jinkysboy

they wouldn`t spend the money we got in ...well maybe £1m or £2m

careful what you wish for

jinksyboy cant agree
I dont think we would get £10m each not now because of the climate but not at all
we all talk about playing for the jersey, these two love playing for the hoops and are both very talented, I can see what you are trying to say but to get some top drawer players to come would mean daft wages and i dont think thats ever going to happen, we have a good structure in place and PL WGS know what they are doing, IMO they are and will be our best players over a full season like last year.
Maloney is better than average, good at times but aiden is better than good and fantastic at times

lovin your work tho

I think Man Us success is ,apart from the money,down to Carlos Queroz alongside the attributes of SAF. I know he's no longer there but cast your mind back.When Man U beat B Munich in the final they got there and won it with tactics based on defending and relying on breakaways.SAF knew his team couldn't play open expansive football against Europes cream so he didn't,but he knew that to be up there with the best they had to learn how to play like that.I think he needed someone else to show him and the players how to achieve this and now they have.Maybe we should consider trying an assistant to GS who's never been sullied by scottish/irish/british fitba dogma,cos let's face it,if Scottish footballing ideas translated into success at all levels,everyone would be copying us and they don't. So some Argentinian or brazilian guy that might bring some fresh different ideas about the place, someone GS felt he could work with and chose.We have to keep moving to get to where we want to be.A well paid assistant coach will cost less than a player.

Jinkysboy :- I don't think they come up to either, to my mind with Man. U and Arsenel you get the impression that at any time any one of half a dozen players could do something brilliant and game turning. Liverpool although good didn't seem to have the same.

PF Ayr

Im sure the board would sanction a decent amount for players if we did sell these two in June.

Our man tells all on this link.

You'll need some time and some peace and quiet to appreciate it, but some of the nighshifters seem to have plenty of all of them.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b00dzny0/The_Divine_Spark_of_Music/

Kojo

I think Darren is just one of a long line of ultra-hyped youngsters who is nothing special. We have such a long lost of young guys who got loads of press before they had made 5-10 starts and ended up not making it. I agree that Cuthbert looks the better player and apparently he was originally ahead in the pecking order before he missed a season through injury.

I also still have a grain of hope for JFK after the incredible praise he recently got from his current manager (loan) 'best centre back he has ever worked with'. Probably a vain hope but their was a new Caesar worth talking up. Pity about the Romanian Brutus/brute though.

Real talent capable of being a first pick only comes through the system once in a blue moon - JFK, L.Miller, McGeady, Maloney, Caddis, arguably Marshall despite his career stuttering temporarily (hope he returns some day judging by the reports from Norwich, but could we afford him?) but thats about it for the last decade. The system is good at producing decent but part players but only one first pick every few years.

My dear,dear,dear,dear,dear,dear,dear,dear,friend... Setting free the Bears.

You are correct,old friend.. I am always in favour of getting the most kick for the buck.

In the case of Aiden... something has come up,lately..which has made me awfully anxious.. to let this young man go.

Whit?

Yep!

He has PLATEAUED, ye know.

Not good, pal..not good at awe.

So...
What to do?.. we'll do what everyboady else do's...

Get whatever you can, and try to salvage a few extra tomatoes, before the whole Batch goes rotten.

For you see, we are fully dependant of Aiden turning in a Starring Role during every game... no excuses accepted..

In the S.P.L., he can get away with the occasional flub..or two.. or three.. in the end.... it matters naught.

Howevvvvvvvvvvvvah....

In the C.L. Games, that is when you neeed a TOP PERFORMANCE, from Your Topmost Player.

In all or most all of the C.L. that I have seen Aiden Play..

He is far too easily STIFLED.. and Manacled... and soitenly Nevah Evah, gives us the type of Game that we require from our number one threat... and he is our Number One Threat...

I know he is Double Teamed... but, what else is New?

If his skill had improved as we had expected, by this time he would have taken that extra attention in his stride... That extra attention is par for the course, regarding all star Players.

No, pal..

Aiden, has not become the best that he can be...for whatevah reason.. he just has NOT.

We depend in C.L. Games too much on his influence..and when we look for it... it is NOT THERE.

The Bottom Line..

Aiden has shown no IMPROVEMENT in his appearances, on the WORLD STAGE.

Therefore, it is time to look for a new Saviour.

Naka, has shown me, that he is not the man that we have built him up to be, either..but, that is neither here nor there..

In short or in long..we need a Pukkah Star... a la Henri...

And those guys do not come cheap.

So....

We must therefore do a spot of Asset Management.. and draw some serious funds together, if we evah want to be a force in the C.L.

I suggest selling... Mr. Boruc and Mr. Aiden, as soon as we can.. as I believe that even selling now at their dwindling value,it is bettah than naught.

It is as serious as that..

We need a Proper World Class Mover and Shaker..in order to make a dent on the Type of Defenses that we run into, in the C.L.

Aiden, has been weighed and found wanting..

It is high time to take our laundry out of his basket and find another.

If we are content to nevah make any progress in the C.L...then... Aiden can stay.. and play like a champ,now and again...in the S.P.L..... no question he is at that level.

But, my ambitions for where I want to see Celtic ,will not allow me to accept that kind of denouement to this story.

Kojo.
yer pal.. who likes ye.

Gallagher

Even the FA have accepted that foreign coaches is the way foward.

I would love to see a foreign assistant to GS - Juande Ramos may be out of work soon...........

Seriously - its a great idea but we have enoght trouble scouting a left back - whats the chances of unearthing a foreign coaching gem.

Edward

Agree that both Manure and Arsenal have so many matchwinners these days its frightening - the two young boys Arsenal have brought in Walcott and Ramsey are already scoring goals at CL away games.

Kojo my amigo
disagree completely see my earlier posts tonight to jinksyboy and the reasons

c'mon support the team, the talent and stand up for the champions, peter grant made a great point on celtic tv last night, man u barca etc have 6 or 7 players capable of changing a game we have one or 2, by that reckoning if we get rid or our one or two we would need 6 or 7 to compete, nae money, nae chance, ronaldo was quoted last year more than it would cost to buy our club!!

yer pal who sometimes dinsae unerstan ye but likes ye jist the same

Anyone any inside info on why Caldwell has not been offered a new contract yet (as far as we know). Seems more than a little weird given that he is by far the best CB at the club (and looked a very good CM v Man U).

I think as a team we need a bit more mental strength and more composure on the ball. When we are being harried and closed down, the ball becomes a bit of a hot potato and we either start passing back the way or just punting it forward and conceding possesion. This also is when certain players will hide, they don't move to help out a team-mate, they just don't want the ball at that moment...The really good passing teams play the little triangles and always with the heads up until someone makes the forward pass...We need to work at that... And throw-ins, more movement, throwing the ball to feet and not the head/chest....Don't worry! I'm not after Gordon's job. He's doing ok.

Not a lotta sleep last night - kept shouting "offside" all night until Mrs Jinx sent me off

So Im off to my Scratcher

Gordon J - Good luck to the Phillies mate. Spit on that curse and lets see two hoodoos blown in the next month or so.

themanfromghordknowswhere,

"I think Darren is just one of a long line of ultra-hyped youngsters who is nothing special"

We aint seen him to judge him. The short time we have seen him at centre half he's been good. San siro for one. He should have kicked on from there, but out manger thougt Pressley and McManus were ahead. I seen enough of O'Dea to say that he will end up going down south and end up like Shay Given.

John Kennedy and Darren O' Dea should have been our centre half partnership for years to come. Injury has robbed us of one. Stupidity by manager may rob us of another one.

"one of a long line of ultra-hyped youngsters who is nothing special"

Well our captain is more over hyped than anybody else!!

What the world needs now...

is Burt Bacharach, Electric Proms, now, on BBC2.

Kojo

I also agree re: Aidan's faultering development. I thought he did well at times v Man U but right now, unless he starts developing again, he has found his level-a top SPL player but not capable of producing consistently/ nothing special when playing above SPL level.

He did come on quite a lot mid last season so he could yet have another spurt but he really needs to get stronger and more importantly he needs to develop the kind of decision making/football brain/final pass/end product that Maloney has.

24 hours on and there are 2 main issues for me. the first is we definitely are not getting value for the salaries we pay out. we have decent players, but with our budget we should be getting better. the more i look at the signing record the more i see a lack of joined up thinking in this area

are we scouting players who we have a realistic chance of signing...if yes.....then it's going wrong at the executive level

if we are scouting players who are a huge long shot to sign...then someone's not giving proper direction to them

teams such as bate borisov with an annual budget of 4 million euros are performing better than us and what about anorthosis famagusta....

The current playing budget is about £4m, with their most expensive player earning about £8,000 a week.

aalborg have a budget of £4 million a year as well...our budget is 9 times that....man utd's budget isn't 9 times ours.....

our ceo has rightly got praise for a number of areas in which he performed well , even in a stelar fashion.....however he has failed to provide a team which matches up to the quality we should have for our budget

the manager deserves a lot of credit for the last 3 years, however the second issue that stands out after last night was his interview after the game

man utd are better than us....gordon told us that....he didnt need to , we already knew that.....he told us that they were the best team he has played in his time as manager...all about opinions i suppose, and i am biased, but i don't think they were anywhere near as good as Barca last year...

it's what he didn't say that disappointed me.....he didn't rant about the 2 offside goals...he should have done...MON would have ripped those officials to pieces....at the game and afterwards...the words outrageous, cheated blatant and cowardly should have been blasted across the airwaves.....

Gordon needs to build a siege mentality, he needs to deliver the togetherness that feeling robbed brings...he failed and failed abjectly in that regard last night......he merely left us with the impression that it didn't matter as we would have got horsed anyway

thats not good enough...not by a long way

i said last night if we had swapped managers with man utd it wouldnt have changed the result....however if we had changed managers the aftermath would have been very different...

Why is Gordon so reluctant to give the partnership of O'Dea and Caldwell a go. Could it be he might end up having to drop his capatain? Shocking if that's the case. No more excuses now about us not having the players to carry out the tasks in hand in Europe. Do something about it and find a formula!! Look at teams likre Cluj and Bate and the results they have in this your seasons CL. First venture in!!

Are you telling me they are bigger clubs Celtic. It's down scouting, eye for player for peanuts and decisions made by the manager. i.e playing players in their natural positions and not afraid to drop personnel if they are not performing.

Bloke 109,

I am watching the wonderful Dennis Locerriere on Rock on TV just now.

What a voice and what a concert.

Mrs42 and myself are going to see him in the Concert Hall on Sunday night.

Martin.

WGS @ 11.23 - You're right WE'VE not seen him enough to judge but the man who ses him day in day out has decided that he's not yet good enough to shift the current incumbents on a regular basis and unless anybody on here is seeing him as often as that they're in no position to state whether the manager is right or wrong.

What galls me (an this isn't aimed directly at you WGS) is that the same people that are suggesting O'Dea and Caddis should have been played are the same ones that would have criticized Strachan for fielding youngsters against Man U had the result turned out the same. Which I think it would have.

WGS,

Perhaps Gordon views Darren in the same light as he viewed Derek Roirdan.

Perhaps the problem is not Gordon, but Darren.

Martin.

WGS

I agree re: Mick but will have to agree to disagree re: OD. I feel his support stems too much from his CL game which has clouded his flaws that stand out in bread and butter SPL games in which I think he has been shakey in nearly all his appearances.

TMFGKW

My dear,dear,dear,dear,dear,friends .. PF Ayr and TheMan

Thanks, PF Ayr for your input, it is appreciated.

The Man...

In the case of Mr. Kennedy, I for one do not have high hopes.

The Horrendous type of Injury that he suffered initially has I am afraid, stunted his Soccer growth to the effect that he shall nevah evah be the prospect that he once was.. A bloody shame.

I believe this, you do not need to agree... for it is a personal opinion.

My ideal Center Back Must have the ability that I am now about to underline...

He must be Athletic.

Sounds not too much to ask...but, according to what I see... It is a very Rare Ability.

My C.B. would be capable of running the 100 yards in 11 seconds flat,in boots.

If he could not... I would swiftly lose interest.

It is Imperative that a C.B. should be Far Fleeter of Foot.. than his opponent... in the majority of run ins... For after all... A C.B. is the GATE KEEPER.

His Tackling, Heading etc abilites... must also be of top class quality.

Nevertheless, He must be extremely swift of foot. That ability is Premier.

Noo, that is awe very weel... but, where dae ye get this type of guy?

I am glad you asked.

Ye kin nevah evah buy wan.. fur they wull be far too dear.

Ye hiv tae go oot and find wan.. at the Yoof Level.

I believe that presently we have one or even two in the lower level.

I am keeping their names a secret for the moment..

Jist because, Ah Kin!

Howevahhhhhhh..

Mebbe next year, who knows?

Kojo.
yer pal...who likes tae like ye.

Arsenal and the way they bring players on is achievable for us and i believe we are trying this strategy with Lennoxtown,Crosas and others etc. One thing we do need to do though is up the physical attributes when we're selecting young players ie speed,strength,size and of course ability in at least a hefty enough proportion as we're too small and lightweight.If the law prevents us from getting young foreign players how do Arsenal manage it?

Another point/idea for a revenue earner for the club.
Back in the seventies i remember big gigs going on every summer. Is it still possible to stage events like this?
What about some of our famous fans like Rod Srewart playing at Celtic park for the usual ticket price but after show costs the profit went to the club.I'm sure the nightshift could come up with a healthy list of Bands and artists that might be up for helping the cause.
We could call it "Left back at the park":)
ideasfactoryCSC

Weeminger,

Alright then let's put it this way then. Forgot O'Dea then. Looverns is a left sided centre hlf. Played there for Cardiff which won him amove eventually to us. Why pay £2.5 million for acentre half and play him out of his natural position? To accomodate the capatain by chance? Same scenario as it is for Darren.

If this the case then Loovens should never have been bought. If GS was going to stick with his tried why waste £2.5 million?

Martin42,

You know something i don't then. If is the case then O'Dea should wise up.

Shaky appearnces in the SPL???? Might be because he is deployed at left back when he has appeared. The rare occassion he played in the SPL in his natrual poisition was Dunfermiline with Bobo, played well tha game. Hearts with Preslley on his return to Tynecastle. Was good again!! Then when McManus went off in the 3 2 game against Rangers him and Caldwell looked solid and seen us over the line in that game.

martin42:

Mrs tim in the chamber and I have seen him on a few occasions as a solo artist and many years ago as part of Dr Hook.

He has an excellent voice and he is a great entertainer.

Trappatoni and Brady rate him. Isn't Brady still with Arsenal. Hmm....!!

I agree about the importance of pace in CBs. Its especially vital to Celtic as we play most of our games on the attack with a very high line. You either have to be fast or a superb tackler to do that. You need at least one of your CBs to be pacey. I am not one of the return Bobo pack but he is a good example of how useful pace is if your not the best in other ways - it allows you to recover from positional errors etc. One of the things I noticed about JFK after his injury is that he had lost his once pretty decent turn of pace.

Tim,

We are really looking forward to his concert.

We both enjoy Dr. Hook we listen to a lot of his CDs.

We were given 2 tickets for the Concert Hall as Christmas presents last Christmas and we have been patiently waiting for this concert.

Will let you know how it went.

Martin.

WGS

I personally feel I saw significant weaknesses in him in almost every SPL appearance and I can see why WGS doesnt select him. I believe his reputation at least has dined out on the San Siro. The high expectations of him baffle me. What is it in particular that is so good about the guy? He doesnt seem especially good in the air, or pace-wise ot positioning wise or in terms of having a leader aura about him. JFK had all that and I am afraid OD is nowhere near to the standard JFK was at his age.

Gallagher

Thats what I was getting at in my post about Barcelona earlier and just before 1.00 this morning.

Get the right kids in as early as possible.

My suggestion for LB Aid - Mogwai.
Im sure with all the bands who would want to play it would end up a weekend festival. How much does T in the Park make?

Enjoying Mr Bacharach just now great tip Bloke_109.

My dear,dear,dear,dear,dear,dear,dear,friend... TheManfrom

Ya goat it,pal... Ya dangblast goat it!

That is why, I believe Mr.Kennedy, will nevah amount to what he was destined by nature to be... It is a crying shame..

When I mentioned,pace.. as being a Premier Requirement that must be possessed by a C.B. I should have added a rider...Agility.

Pace and Agility usually go hand in hand.. Athleticism, is the over all description.

And as you so rightly point out..

Our erstwhile C.B. incumbent..Mr. Bobo... has these qualities.

I was a real Bobo fan.. until, I noticed his WAN Insurmountble Drawback.

Drawback?

Sure, Bobo... Canny think Fast enough.

His Athletic Ability out paces his swiftness of Thought!

The result... Pandemonium!

Only one Mental Error a Game, usually.. But.. Usually..

It was a Lollapallooza!

Na, Bobo comes close to my ideal.. but that Wan Drawback.. Knackers the whole plan!

Kojo.
yer pal...who like tae like ye.

WGS

Yes, Trap and Brady rate O'Dea - not enough to get him into the first team mark you, while the man you constantly disparage is rated by Smith, McLeish, Burley (as NT captain) as well as by Strachan, and has won 3 in a row as a constant at centre-back. While were at it, he's also our most experienced CL campaigner. He has a wee bit more in his locker that you give him credit for.

Fair enough on Cluj and Bate. Just to unwrap that, though, Cluj are in a weaker group on 3 points more than us, yet may still not qualify, while Bate are a point better off in a strong group, although again they will probably not qualify. Both are far from being ahead of us in European terms. Most groups will end as seeded, with ours more than likely no exception. No mean achievement.

For the anoraks among us, some of the press kit for last night's game.

Barcabhoy @11:35….yer bang on there mate!!

This is a topic which has been grating me for some time.

It is oft discussed on these threads the financials of our club, but I do believe that this is only one aspect of it.

Whilst we are now talking about amortisation and operating expense, we are not digging deeper into what both of these subjects are. BOTH of these are football issues…no one on the board owns this, only the football manager.

To give this context…if a purchased player (Gravesen) loses value, then it’s a failing of the coaching staff in identifying a player who oes not add value to the team. If the OPEX increases on salaries, then its due to the football decision to increase the wages on offer to that player. If that player cannot take the club further forward, his salary demands should be declined and the players transfer value should be realised. End of…..Alex Ferguson and Arsene Wenger are past masters of moving on players when they believe that they have surpassed their value to the team.

It is often (unfairly) suggested that the first Celtic team to enter the Champions League done so with significant financial backing and as such had better quality. Whilst I agree that the team had better quality, it does not tell the full story financially.

If you look deeper at this, and specifically the 4-3 home game against Juventus in our first Champions League campaign:

Lambert – 2m (within current budget for players)
Petrov – 1.9m (within current budget for players)
Moravcik - .35m (within current budget for players)
Larsson - .65m (within current budget for players)
Sutton – 6m ( this is the “iffy” one…outwith budget, but when you consider like for like on receipt of 6m for Mark Viduka who cost 3m…it squares off)

The argument doesn’t ring true. That all of these guys went on to greater salaries at the club was a testimony to the value that they brought. If there was a dispute, the club could have made money on these players by accepting tx bids for the player.

What we are seeing, is an abject failure in terms of players coming through and return on investment of purchased players.

Again, THIS IS A FOOTBALL ISSUE.

It needs fixed….pronto!!

andycol on October 20, 2008 11:33 PM

Andy, sorry for not replying to your post. Thanks very much for bringing the James MacMillan question up at the AGM. It could lead to things of huge significance.

riotsurvivor

Fair point, but it doesn't quite tell the full story to pick out some of that squad and not the rest - Leenon at £6m and Hartson on the bench at £6m. Not arguing, as I say the point is well made, just expanding. Some bench by the way.

Celtic: Douglas, Balde, Mjallby, Valgaeren, Agathe, Lennon, Lambert, Moravcik, Petta, Larsson, Sutton. Subs: Kharine, Sylla, McNamara, Thompson, Hartson, Tebily, Petrov.

Re last nights game .
There is a fine line between success and failure in the CL .We were on the wrong side of bad calls for their first 2 goals .With a depleted team that was the last thing we needed .No one will deny they are a superior team but the first goal in these games can be crucial. I am not saying they won ONLY because of these errors (rooney had a good goal chalked off )but they made the game easier for them .Imagine we got a two goal lead with decisions like that fergie would have blown a fuse . Can anyone remember us getting the benefit of a dodgy call in the CL .I can think of maybe one ,but have many more against .

Bloke_109....I hate the apathy which has arisen since our defeat at Old Trafford.

We can do better...We MUST do better.

Petta was a free tx, Agathe cost 50k

Our coaching network needs to ID better players quicker and our manager must stop his defeatest attitude in major games.

Being honest...he approached the game at Old Trafford like Jim Jeffries before a game at Ibrox....

We have to believe we can rise again!!

I must add - I'm a Gordon Strachan supporter!!

theriotsurvivor @ 12.09

YARP!!

Many of the earlier posts on CQN were crowing about Celtic's Asset Management policy. This has been a medium-term failure, with only hard currency the solution to solve.

Boruc/McGeady and possibly Brown and Samaras apart, we're left with a squad full of players we'll do well to sell.

McDonald, won't leave, not on the money he's on now.
Killen, won't leave, couldn't sell him.
Maloney, failed once, won't be persuaded to leave and no-one will want him.
Donati would leave but we won't get our money back.
Naylor, Celtic were reading the papers too much if they believed anyone would pay £3million, never likely before, even less likely now
Wilson, see Killen
Balde, see out contract
Hinkel, maybe a surprise, may get some money back
Hartley, lived the dream, won't leave
Robson, see Hartley
Caldwell, likely to leave on the cheap, or we have to pay a lot to keep him, missed a trick there
McManus, see Hinkel
Loovens, see Killen
Hutchinson, see Killen
Doumbe, see Killen
Nakamura, see Balde

Of those, only Caldwell, McManus, Naylor, Hinkel and possibly Donati are sellable for anything more than 500K, i.e. of those who would consider leaving.
Ironic with Strachan's focus so much on the attack, and producing ball players all across the pitch (smirk), that apart from the 4 mentioned above (Boruc, McGeady, Brown and Samaras) it's mostly defenders who'll make us any money, and they are the perceived weak-link of the team.

Looking at the bottom, with Nakamura likely to leave on a Bosman, surprising that when compared with the vitriol that Balde has received in some quarters, Naka hasn't received a proportionate amount of criticism.

I'm a massive fan of Bobo and not a massive fan of Naka and while I totally respect Bobo's wishes, Bobo has more-or-less kept his counsel whereas the Japanese media have been full of the Yokohama story now for almost a year and yet there is silence amongst many of the fans.

It's the misguided arrogance of "We are not a selling club"

We can and should be...at the right price!

Again...a football decision!!!

theriotsurvivor

absolutely

Celtic were actually offered £9million by Newcastle for Skoosh and we KB'd it. What the hell are we doing!!

I like Brown and think he'd have been brilliant in the EPL but we should have seen ker-ching!

pggtips2....well thats the thing!

we either give platitudes for good P&L management...which includes the ability to accept a good offer when you see one...and take with that, that realistic offers for players will be accepted.

or...we take the "accumulate to speculate" approach which involves risk....and all that entails...eg "no we're not accepting your generous offer...and as it happens, we plan to increase our overdraft capacity to support the manager in his transfer aspirations"

can't do both.

theriotsurvivor on October 23, 2008 12:09 AM

All of the players that you have mentioned were bought in days before the bottom team in the EPL were guaranteed a £30 million pound expenses free windfall thanks to the new Sky deal.

I'm afraid we cant compare then to now m8, Allan Hutton £9 mil vs Paul Lambert £2 Mill?

thesurvivor.
the players you mention were brought to the club by four different managers .Transfer fees and wages since then have gone crazy add to this the fact we have had to downsize due partly to the deals done in the latter years you allude to , I think you are being a bit unfair .
In the current football climate we have rightly seen the need to change tact .We all hurt when we fail to do well in Europe ,but sometimes you have to take a step back to go forward .
It was not that long ago when we were lucky just to be in Europe(any competition) after xmas .then it was we should be reaching the group stages . Now we are griping at not reaching the last 16 .So we ARE progressing .
There is an old saying ...you reap what you sow .
HAIL HAIL
If we sow the seeds well now hopefully we will reap the benefits in the seasons to come
KTF .

theriotsurvivor

I like the buy medium, sell higher philosophy. Brown would have been a great example.

If you buy too low, you may just end up with a crap player, or a player you can't sell and that is what Celtic have mostly done under WGS.

Dare I say it, Cuellar, Cousin and Bougherra over at Darnel are examples of the philosophy we should have adopted post O'Neill and we haven't. Could be argued its won us three leagues, but at what cost to repair.

I am Keeping The Faith!!!

Others have lost theirs!!

There are gems out there waiting to be picked up...we need to be there first!

We can produce great players again....they need nurtured and to believe that, if they are good enough to play for Celtic, they are good enough to play at Old Trafford.

When we talk about finance on here, inevitably, it leads to discussion about the ReaRangers going bust.

Right now...if that happens, where are we???

Not good enough at the top level and better than Hamilton

Raise the bar....

The shirt does not shrink to fit inferior players

HAIL HAIL!!

So we're back to the financial debate now?

The simple truth is that we can't compete with the EPL clubs right now because of the TV deal. Is that likely to change anytime soon? I don't see it unless there is real fundamental structural change in European football. Eventually I can see some form of European league system, which will give us a greater income.

But until then we are stuck on the SPL.

Scouting has been talked about a lot as they way forward - getting young kids and moulding them into players.

We do OK at the moment, but we could do better. Nurturing talent isn't easy. But we have several home grown players in our squad, some talented youngsters and we are now attracting kids from abroad in: Santonocito looks good to me. And the possibility of more Barce youngsters is exciting.

theriotsurvivor on October 23, 2008 1:06 AM

Great sentiments m8, cant fault you, but i would ask you to put forward some gems and their price? We seem to have done not bad with Sammi and Crosas - our SPL purchases have been a bit over priced maybe.

Stevie....I'd gladly chuck my job to do it.

Gary Caldwell was our best player at Old Trafford.

He took the ball, was confident, kept his head up and passed to a team mate.

He is NOT a brilliant player.

There are plenty across Europe who can do similar in various positions!

HAIL HAIL

by do it....i mean be a scout!!

theriotsurvivor
"The shirt does not shrink to fit inferior players"

Often quoted and very often abused, followed in the main by, or preceeded by some number of excuses of why things can't be done rather than actually trying to find a solution.

HAIL HAIL!!

"The Celtic wage bill does not shrink to fit an inferior squad"

Anyway, the baseball is about to start. Game One of the World Series in Florida: Tampa Bay Rays against Philadelphia Phillies.

Let's get it on!

pggtips2
Do you really want us to sell the players we bring in as soon as they look like doing something for the team .for the one medium buy who gets us a profit what percentage goes to the other three who fail to do the same .rangers are going down that road out of necessity not choice. How many of their team outwith the three they have sold in recent seasons could realise a pofit ,NONE .
We also do not have the help of the scottish press to boost the price of any player we may want to make a killing on .
See Boumsong ,hutton ,cueller . They made no profit on the sale of cousins I believe ,and how good is bougherra , who allowed the boy from st mirren to run 25 yrds towards goal and then turned his back when the boy shot ,have a look . Not surprised you may not know but I bet you would know if it was loovens .

Evening all,

I haven't been on since before the game.
I missed the game due to being stuck in an airport waiting for a delayed flight from London. I managed to catch it on C67 this morning. I thought we did as well as we could against the side that will probably win the whole kit and caboodle.
Were people really expecting us to win last night?? I was more peed off by the Villareal game as I thought we capitulated totally and said so here. I was roundly condemned by others saying I was unrealistic to expecting anything else. I still think I was right and that after the first half they were there for the taking if we and the manager had showed any courage. I believe the Aalborg result yesterday proved it. They managed 3 goals against Villareal where we didn't even try til we went down. Anyway, thats in the past.
Yesterday we did see a fantastic side in Man Utd that even though we tried could never compete against, if we are to be honest with ourselves.
So people take the advise that was doled out to me and get real.

My main concern was the conduct of our manager in the press conference afterwards...is he angling for a job at Man Utd? He was dismissive of the Celtic teams efforts and of our players but kept on harping on about how good Man Utd was. Hey Gordon, you are our manager!!

Still supporting Celtic.

I wont be posting updates on game 1 of the World Series, so sorry to anyone looking for them...I'm off to the pub to watch the game there.

Hail Hail

Fergus

Firstly, I never watch Rangers games unless I feel they have a likely chance of being humped.

Secondly, people use not being in the EPL as a disadvantages, Rangers have made £25 million selling three players, we've made about £12 million selling Petrov, Beattie and Maloney.

We should have done better at that.

Yes, we can't expect to hold onto a great player for 5 years plus therefore we should sell and use that money to finance new players.

The SPL is a selling league and we must comply, ableit at a higher level than Hibernian or Hearts (who got £9million from Sunderland so media bumming up isn't always required, remember Kieran McAnespie).

Listen bhoys n ghirls, yer beat yer beat, stop bleating, take yer medicine and get on with things, i'm sure the players are feeling a lot worse than the fans...so what we gonna do, chastise them more or be proper fans and support them ever more.

Celtic have given us fans some great champions league moments, our club and fans have won merit awards for our efforts, we were beat.

Not the first time won't be the last

Have faith my friends,in all that is celtic...and please stand up will you.....for the champions.

I'll be singing that as i meander into my scratcher.

Hail Hail

GB

dublibhoy
Do not read to much into GS post match comments ,What he tells the press will be totally different to what he tells the players .
As for him angling fo a job at man utd ,c'mon .
Re Villareal I hear they maybe underestimated them slightly and got a fright before they got their act together .I thought we tried and did well for 50 minutes ,but when they got the better of our weak fullbacks , the rest is history .
hail hail

T'was only 18 months ago....
that AC Milan .......Smacked Manchester United 3-0 in the Semi-Final.

And one man u fan posted this in the aftermath...

We were totally outplayed tonight by a class Milan side. Many of our big players didnt perform tonight and it was a big disappointment. Felt that Scholes tried his best but the fluidity of the team just wasnt there. We had warnings about Kaka in the first leg but they werent addressed. Liverpool will have to play a lot better than they did against chelsea last night against this class Milan Team.
Bring on the Prem and The FA cup!!! Come on your Reds!!!

Sounds like a guy who KTF in his team....
We should have more like him......

Roll On Four.

Gordon
When it was the original TV deal we were a competing club. Even when we did not qualify or had a "Porto nightmare" we were still overall a competitive force.

Last night we were not a competitive force and there are two reasons for that. TV money went up so that all EPL teams can pay more than we can, but more significantly the amount of debt that the top four have gone into has risen sharply. The consequences of that on our competiveness are clear for all to see.

We can do little about the TV money but there has to be a form of debt capping or handicapping to re-insate some semblance of competitiveness. That is what is so depressing about last night, it showed just how great the gulf has become and at present there is no way out but accept that the UEFA Cup is now our level and even there a huge gap exists that requires our very best to bridge it.

I am growing more confident with the passage of time that the existing financial model for football is beginning to show cracks under the strain of massive debt.

pgtipps
If you don't watch the gers games why name bougherra in a positive context .
How much do you REALLY think the gers have made from those three transfers .If as you say the gers made 25 mill why has their debt risen from 5 mill to 21 mill in a period where they had a CL and run to the efc final included .
I would agree with you regarding THG , he is to good for the spl higher things await for him ,that is why he was secured on a vastly improved deal .
One of MONs biggest failings was BIG outlays on players with no return ,he is being quoted as one of the best managers in the EPL .
soory I do not remember McAnespie

Phillies with a 2 - 0 lead after the first innings on Chase Utley's home run.

pjnyc
is that the same ac milan we took into extra time and had a couple of penalty claims turned down .as you say KTF
hail hail

Celtic fans give money to Sky. Sky give the money to English teams who then use it to buy players to beat Celtic. So, step 1..........stop subscribing to Sky.

tobi
your taking that to far .
hail hail .

Gordon J last 11 years, team that wins the first game in world series, WINS 10 outta 11

Go Phillies

I would much have preferred that we whacked the SOX though.

GB

fergus slayed the blues......

Exxxaaaaaaccctttllyeeeeeeeeeee!!!!!!

Hail Hail to you sir and top of the class for your spatial intelligence!!!!
I deliver the cross and you head it in with perfect timing...

I am off out for a beer......

Roll on Four.

BASES LOADED ,OOOH

GO PHILLY