Unfathomable defending by those on borrowed time

First!

hello again

Borrowed time indeed.

McGeady, Hinkle, Crosas and N'Guemo only passes for me.

Paul67

It's hard to avoid the conclusion that this is a team who know they are unloved and on borrowed time.

Well said, but can you ask lawell will we have any money to ensure these imposters don't play for us any longer than is necessary.

By money i don't mean selling the only assets we have boruc, brown, hinkle and mcgeady.

Hail Hail

Darnit

missed again.

In an age when transfer decisions are made almost entirely (and to some extent correctly) with an eye to the finances, it is to be hoped that those upstairs will take heed at the dwindling attendances and do the right thing in January.

We are papering over the cracks while the whole house is in danger of collapsing about our ears.

There is a bigger picture here, one that isn't seen no matter how many times you slo-mo through the highlights, frame by frame by frame.

Eustace,

It's that bad that they can't even be bothered to fill in most of the verses with proper lyrics.

I think somebody needs to introduce them to the bloke who penned 'There's only one Jorge Cadete' - now there was a lyricist

A defensive system reliant on Gary Caldwell's attention levels was probably not the best idea.

footballersarestupidCSC.

DBBIA - what is it?

You are too kind Paul on our feeble half - hearted attempts at defending the cause, no commander in there whatsoever or someone going in where it hurts! The only player who can do that is the bold Mick but he can do little more. If we're going to scratch around and get middle of the road players, then the ex Hibs defender Jones might as well be given a try and get Darren back asp.
Billyimatim still trying to be optimistic but apathy is creeping in too fast.

From previous-

TBFTL- Still think your moniker is the best, makes me smile anytime I see you post!

Re songs debate- if we can at least cut out the (to many of us) highly offensive lyrics- "Ooh Ahh", reference to the Provisionals, "Roamin in the Gloamin" and the worst of all- "Soon there will be no........", then we will really be on the one road.

Paul67.

At both corner kicks Zaluska was impeded by a dundee defender standing in front of him,stopping him from reaching the crossed ball.

Paul67

I don't normally comment on your personal assesments as I generally think that whether you're on or off the ball it's aye good for a debate.

that was a mighty fine post.

Your last line sums up the whole position succinctly, Paul.

Paul,

Under a decent manager, the current players have the ability to achieve better results than Played 22, Won 9, Drawn 5, Lost 8.

What do you reckon is the quicker, cheaper option: change half the team; or change the manager?

By Killen In The Name Of on November 23, 2009 10:52 AM

A well balanced post. When I see folk say things like the Board do not respect them I often think "no wonder" based on the reaction to a defeat or draw.

It is all emotive driven of course, the closer to the game the higher the emotional content, then as the game falls into history (like next day) a sense of balance and rationality emerges.

Had it finished 1-0 I would have been more pleased with the performance than the result as we showed more signs of bossing the game against a very good team than we have for a while.

However the performaces by MAF, Caldwell and Loovens, when it counted, highlighted where we MUST improve. For the CBs I put it down to lack of jumping height/strength (Caldwell/McManus) and strenght/jumping height Loovens. MAF just seems to lack everything.

It is clear where we need to stengthen, has been since GS arrived and we settled for less in central defense. Mowbray comes from a league where big defenders are the norm, he even commented on Dundee Utd's strength so I'm pretty sure the priority will be a strong, commanding CB and if he is experienced, so much the better.

If there is one thing our team has in abundance it is a lack of understanding and ability to do the job they are paid handsomely to do. I feel as if I am being urinated on.

MWD

Dubaibhoy - I'd suggest that players that weren't good enough under one manager with a particular playing style and then weren't good enough under a new manager with a totally different playing style probably aren't good enough.

If as it turns out you're going to have to change half the team anyway, then the quicker cheaper option is to keep the manager.

Paul

Thanks for pointing out the source of the confusion. The final goal now makes perfect sense.

But it makes you want to bang heads together: >£10k per week and unable to follow basic instructions ... what chance have we got?

I'm still worried about January, though ...

Lots of provisos to consider: if we don't smarten up our act in this most gentle of December fixutures I think the Board will be in a quandary about letting this manager get a load of cash to splash.

And we're assuming he'll have access to the players he wants, AND be able to ship out the players he doesn't.

Que sera, sera ...

Dubaibhoy

we won 9 of our last 19 league games last season. it's the players who need punted.

UC

Eustace, agree, a considerable number of new faces are required while keeping our key players, although I don’t agree with your list entirely.

Billyimatim, it’s not the time for anyone who is simple available to us, the right replacements are needed.

Oldtim67, aye, I saw that, but he is the keeper, he should not be so easily taken care of.

Che's 1, thank you very much.

goldstar10, I suspect so.

Dubaibhoy, we need to change the team and changing the manager now would only reduce our chances of effectively doing so in January.

Folly Folly, indeed.

Weeminger- the bigger picture isthe decline in which the Club appears to be heading, on and off the field.

It's as much about strategy,as about tactics.

We talk about moving to a richer League, but in our current milieu we are floundering. A Club like Celtic should be looking at European football after Christmas every season, we're probably not going to get that even in La Liga von Eurodiddies.

The Club's current raison d'etre seems to be the avoidance of debt; laudable in itself [up to a point] but ultimately fatal if it slowly strangles the life out of Celtic.

The Board have manage dto make one of the most passionate supports in World Football apathetic, that apathy will soon turn to anger.

Paul67,
got to disagree on the second goal, loovens was fouled when he attampted to get between dodds and the ball, if you watch the replay you will see he is held long enough to give dodds the advantage.

A useful analysis of the defence, or lack of it.

However, these players do not act in a vacuum. They train every day and follow instruction and tactics communicated from higher up the food chain. The players might carry the can but the buck does not stop with them...

We are WBA in green and white hoops (when we wear them that is).

Paul,

Celtic have been unable to master the art of zonal defending for 2 years now. What makes Tony Mowbray think we can alter from man marking to zonal on a weekly basis is beyond me. The defence seemed very unsure of their role yesterday, and it is quite frankly a disgrace that a professional football team cannot defend two corners.

When the second one was given on 90 minutes the camera panned to Danny Fox, he looked petrified, he was right to be.

It's all very well saying they are on borrowed time, they wont be as I am now convinced (after the comments at the AGM) that we will not spend in January.

We shouldn't limp along, if the guys in the reserves are any good they should be in, they MUST be better than these guys, surely?

Goldstar10

Cheers. Click on the wee spanner thing for the proper laugh.

Oldtim67,

Do you not think that Zaluska got too caught up in bothering about the bloke in front of him, rather than concentrating on the ball: especially at the second?

This doesn't excuse the calamity of the centre backs who were bullyed by the Utd players.

Paul67

The Dundee Utd players did their job. One made sure Zaluska did not have a free jump and Webster gave Loovens a wee dunt, enough to take him off balance but not enough to make it an obvious foul for the second goal. The corners were also excellently delivered.

I do not know how many corners we had but I cannot remember us looking like scoring the way Utd did.

In the modern game where most danger comes from set ball situations Celtic appear a lot less dangerous than the opposition.

Utd's corner, from which the winner came was the result of a deflection well away from the danger area and yet it proved costly.
You can dominate a team in open play but if you are going to concede a goal nearly every time you give away a free kick or a corner you are in trouble resultswise.

We can forget about a generation of domination if this is what our financial advantage amounts to and you can be sure that the bank managers at LTSB is breathing a little easier after the weekend.

Canamalar, a modest obstruction, the kind you have to be able to take care of, and that does not mean ditching the defensive plan was appropriate.

Bhoydell, reserves are usually reserves for good reason. Replacements are required, not reserves. Forget the zonal/man-for-man debate, if you don’t practice either effectively you lose goals.

Auldheid, aye.

canamalar- Loovens chased Dougie McDonald back to the halfway line after the 2nd goal, he was clearly unhappy. McDonald was having none of it, of course.

DBBIA - my view is that there's was and is an inevitable decline in the player quality we can attract.

The question the board need to ask themselves is this:

Which is better 30,000 season tickets at £500, or 50,000 at £300.

This does two things for me a) it fills the stadium and gives a better atmosphere and b) the support might be a bit more sympathetic because they'll no longer be paying near EPL prices for a Championship players.

I think we could get by spending enough on a quality striker and quality Centre half, the chances of major surgery are slim in January but a couple in and a couple out would be ok for me.

give the manager a chance to sort it.

UC

Nice point malceye re. The strips. Whit wis that aw aboot....

Nonsense. Even that barkin mad peoples strip from yonder year wis better.

Tartan my @rse...

Not only did we play like diddys we looked like diddys....

KendoddCSC

DBBIA - I meant to add that I think individual match ticket prices should be kept high. I want there to actually be an advantage to showing your commitment up front.

canamalar on November 23, 2009 12:25 PM

Well done, you - I thought I was the only person on the planet to see the blatant foul on Loovens by Webster for their second goal. The media would have squealed like pigs if we got away with something like that. It was against us though, so silence reigns - even when they replay the goal 20 times to let everybody see the "bad defending", they can't quite see the foul staring them in the face.

The Manager's defending of the team by saying we outclassed United all over the pitch is unfathomable and I believe he is among those on borrowed time.

Very, very disapaointed in what Tony Mowbray has achieved, or more accurately failed to achieve, even with a somewhat limited squad.

The team are less than the sum of the parts.

SwasneaBhoy

In my mind, there's further irony/misery in this talk of us being poor at defending set pieces: viz. we're even worse at attacking set pieces!

If I were defending against us, I would have no qualms about giving away a corner, or even a free kick around the edge of the box: we're pretty shocking from attacking set plays, too.

FF

By canamalar on November 23, 2009 12:25 PM

You spotted that subtle shove as well then.

Afternoon troops
Just popping by.

Advice please fellow hoops

-Tech Help please buying a laptop for the missus
looking at two options
both have Dual Core Processors, 4 Gig, 320 gig
harddrive, wifi,etc ( wahtever they are FFS!)

one is a Sony the other is a Toshiba.
Of course Mr Sony is 300 euro dearer than Mr Toshiba.
heart says buy the Sony. Sony looks like a stoatir.
Embdy have any grown-up advice?????

Thanks
Ned Ludd

paul67
the great unloved

Celtic have been unable to sort out a quality defence for years now, not since Malby, Yoos and Bobo. (and Reiper before that). All these guys have one thing in common that we are missing, mature (around 28-30) powerfull defenders. Martin O'Neill taught us that you win in Scotland by having big guys in your team and surrounding them with football players, we failed to learn.

I said it at the beginning of the season, as soon as Tony said we will play football the right way, I thought "Liam Brady" he is Laim re-incarnated. I read an article on West Brom recently from last season, it's title was "pretty but useless".

How can an ex Centre half not manage to organise a defence?

How can he buy MAF, this guy doesnt look like a player who will score in Scotland, like Samaras not powerfull or fast enough.

By Dubaibhoy on November 23, 2009 12:18 PM
"Paul,

Under a decent manager, the current players have the ability to achieve better results than Played 22, Won 9, Drawn 5, Lost 8.

What do you reckon is the quicker, cheaper option: change half the team; or change the manager?"

I know you addressed this point to Paul but I would suggest it would be cheaper and better for Celtic as a whole to change half the team.

Celtic lost to Dundee United at Tannadice, and drew at Falkirk, as well as losing to Rangers who they trail by 1 point. The team has lost its main creative player Nakamura and the summer signings have yet to settle in.

Tony Mowbray must be sacked is the cry.

Man Utd lost to Liverpool at Anfield, and have lost at Burnley as well as losing to Chelsea who they trail by 5 points. The team has lost its main creative player Ronaldo and the summer signings have yet to settle in.

Is anyone clamouring for Alex Ferguson to be sacked ?

Yesterday's defeat to Dundee United has been coming for some time, we had only beaten them once over 90 minutes in the last 6 matches prior to yesterday. It was very obvious that Craig Levein knows what to do to beat us. Thankfully he also knows what to do to beat the Huns so all may not be lost.

Owen Coyle is doing a great job at Burnley but for whatever reason he chose not to take the Celtic job. Tony may have been prepared to work under the conditions Owen knocked back or he may have been lied to, but he took the job, because he wanted to bring success to our football club and had the guts to accept it and take it on.

He needs support now from 3 areas.

The players- Too many "big" players letting the club down, Heid with his contract talks and mobile phone on the pitch. McDonald with his attitude. McManus with his ineptitude and his talk of clear the air meetings. Fortune as his star signing has to show why Tony wanted him. (p.s. the WBA stats show that they scored more goals with him, but won less matches and gained less points with him in the team - not a good sign !)

The board- To pay £2m compensation to obtain a manager and then not support him in his wish to improve the squad is negligent at best. £2m cash to Trappatoni on top of the salary Tony and his team are taking would have been a better option if the team could not be improved. Tony was their choice, number one we were told. Lawwell should walk if Desmond is making the decisions, he is a majority shareholder not our owner. More than 50% of the shares are owned by other parties. Its not your club Dermot it's ours. January is the key, back him then or sack him now, to do neither is not an option.

The fans - If the players and the board do their bit, the fans will do theirs. We will fill the stadium, we will buy the merchandise, we will sing the songs you want us to.

We have not faced a more important transfer window , let's not look to see what the other mob are doing, lets get our own house in order. A house that is currently more divided than at any time since Dempsey stood on the steps and cried "The Rebels have won"

U-C/Dubaibhoy - the majority of this team failed just about every major question asked of them last season. This season, apart from Moscow away, they have continued where they left off in May.
Two different managers, but same end result.

I could understand the situation if our current wage bill was around the £20M mark instead of double that! You can see where Barcabhoy's stinging criticism of the CEO comes from.

These guys are failures and will get TM the sack unless he acts in a completely ruthless manner. There's a rotten core within this team and if it means we have to sell one of our major players in January to fund their replacements, then so be it.
I would prefer if that was Brown instead of THG or Aiden, but I wouldn't be too upset as long as we got good money to finance the manager's plans.

Our CEO should be very busy earning his next bonus just now....

TTTT

On saturday members of the Kilkenny 4 in a row team will be at Celtic Park. How I wish that their sheer determination to win would rub off on the bunch that are currently wearing the hoops.
A few could do with the fighting spirit of Tommy Walsh & Co.

Hail Hail

Thought our midfield performed well but our two strikers were virtual passengers - did F...ALL throughout the ninety minutes.

Conceding goals at set-pieces has been a problem which goes back to Martin O'Neill's final season at the club. Our free kicks and corners yesterday were shocking and Dundee defenders never gave us a sniff.

What happens our defenders when faced with tall physically strong players? Daly an unknown Dub comes on and practically beats Celtic on his own.

Zaluska was not blameless either. Watched the French Keeper in Croke Park and last Wed. night come well of his line on several occasions to intercept tricky crosses. Zaluska made some good stops but an international class keeper should be capable of catching or punching in these situations.

TTTT

SPOT ON.

Skippy should be first to be bounced out, worst attitude I have seen in years.

UC

So Paul,

Are you suggesting that the CEO allowed the previous manager to employ at least half a team who were not up to their job description? Or did the CEO just mismanage the assets that were in place?

BankieBhoy1, yes here is some advice change the manufacturer's you are looking at ;-)

Paul,

Interesting reply, it would assume we have not practiced these defending processes, which is my point. Given the said players were away on international duty, we could have had little time to put this into practice, so why change the system, poor management judgement I suggest.

What about spending, do you think he will have a budget without selling? if like me you don't then it will be a sweat case to see if we can sell someone, with the result that we run out of time on the 31st.

oldtim67 12:14

I liked what I heard few weeks ago from one of the great Celtic fans.
He told me that few years ago Celtic had at least few players who were pitch hooligans and ready to fight for the teammates and for the good result. When few years ago the Celtic player was abused or touched, one of: Mjallby, Sutton, Balde or Hartson made the rest of the stupid player’s game completely useless. He said Celtic does not have such players anymore. If you tell Samaras he is not handsome, you will see him crying on the pitch. Half serious half joke advice from my friend. In the passed years Celtic players were untouchable.

TBFTL- excellent stuff.
BTW, didn't realise until recently that Steve- Gregory's pal- also played McCafferty in "Just a Boys Game", with the immortal lines from Frankie Miller-

"Hey McCafferty- your tea's oot"

"Come ahead McQuillan"

Cue slashing of chibs.

Scottish kitchen sink drama- nothing to beat it!

Paul67,
my point being it was obstruction which shou;ld have resulted in a free kick to us and not a goal, the player had both arms over loovens sholders all his weight forcing loovens down IMO a bigger issue than you allow for.

Banksiebhoy

yeh. I recommend a Commodore 64.

Much better graphics than the zx spectrum.

KraftwerkCSC

Bankiebhoy

from experience of Sony, if it goes wrong it will cost a complete fortune to repair, it will be sent out of the UK and you will be without it for what seems like ever

my experience was 2 years ago, so it may have changed. Toshiba are a much bigger player than Sony in laptops, so may well have a better infrastructure.

Generally speaking computer manufacturers almost expect you to buy a replacement model any time you get a fault... i now use a mac and a pc...much prefer the mac, with the only irritation that Channel67 does not work on it for live content....however thats Celtic's fault not Apple's

bhoydell

I'm guesin you'll
be advocating
the
Hewlett Packard then
eh?

:0)

Paul,

'It might take new recruits before Tony Mowbray feels happy with his team, but Celtic cannot afford to limp along until January with off-message defenders. Immediate solutions are required.'

Totally Agree!

We have the wherewithal to make the sweeping changes necessary in the next transfer window and I believe we will, it seems to me there is a real will amongst the Board, the Management and Supporters to make this happen.

BUT

January is too late, we will be out of Europe, the League cup & may well be too far off the pace in the SPL to get a revamped squad up to speed in a competitive league to make up the ground.

We need corrective Action NOW!

Have we been confident of winning any game this season when we have gone in front.
The basic from a defender has to be that he is prepared to attack the ball.
We know that in our league we need strong centre halves like Mjallby,Joos,or a Paul Elliot.
Imo not one of our centre halves has the fear factor

bankiebhoy1

we have a toshiba, don't know much about them but my wife sells computers and that is the one she picked.

UC

Since I was in the Fair Play upper stand I had a great view of the movement of our strikers, or lack of it. I watched McDonald attentively and noticed that not once – and I do mean not once – did he look across the defenders line to make sure he was on-side.

He’s simply lazy, no more needs to be said and I agree with the comments above, his attitude is shocking.

bankiebhoy1

get her a Mac

HH

Mmmmhhhhhh... No Herald Journalist prepared to assign his name to this piece Mmmhhhhhh I wonder why

Firms should be legally required to monitor sectarian incidents at work, a report has said.

And this should include examples of direct discrimination, the report said.

There should also be “clear guidance” on not dismissing prejudiced comments as workplace banter or humour, said the report.

The report, commissioned by the STUC, found “real progress” has been made in reducing sectarianism but it remains a force in the Scottish workplace.

The report, by Professor Gerry Flinn, Fatima Uygun and Andrew Johnson at Strathclyde University, follows research which included the use of focus groups and interview with union officials.

One example quoted was said by a participant in the research to have taken place in the last five years in a well-off area where a house was on fire.

The report said: “Initially the house-owner refused to allow all personnel of the fire service to enter because he did not allow Catholics in his house.

“The leading fire officer in attendance, who was a Protestant, insisted that unless all of his crew were allowed to enter, no one would go in to extinguish the fire.”

The report called for the development of clear anti-sectarian policies, for employers and unions to work together, and for workforces to be actively involved.

The report also called for firms to have clear procedures from removing graffiti, and for clear guidelines on how sectarianism should be reported and the penalties that will apply.

The research report, funded by the Scottish Government and the Sense over Sectarianism campaign, was published as Community Safety Minister Fergus Ewing attended an event at the Scottish Youth Theatre to mark progress in efforts to tackle sectarianism.

The minister said: “Our strategy for tackling sectarianism is based on funding key projects and bringing together organisations to work together to send a clear message throughout the country that sectarianism is never acceptable and never excusable.”

He welcomed the STUC report and said the anti-sectarian group Nil by Mouth was mounting a workplace sectarianism project backed with £118,000 of Scottish Government funding.

The report found that reported examples of discrimination were not typical, they gave ground for serious concern that in a few workplaces “various forms of blatant discrimination do still remain in force.”

The STUC report declared: “It was worrying to learn that in 21st century Scotland examples of direct discrimination against Catholics could still be reported.

“It is also a concern that nothing was done about this in these places of employment.

“Trade union activists relayed these examples but they had initiated no action themselves.

“This is revealing example of the way that sectarianism can become so embedded within the culture that, although these informants disapproved of it, no opposition to its practice took place.”

The report also features the case of leading QC Donald Findlay, who resigned as deputy chairman of Rangers Football Club after being secretly filmed singing the Billy Boys after beating Celtic to win the Scottish Cup in 1999.

The song contains the phrase “Up to our knees in Fenian blood” and the report quotes from a focus group discussion of the episode, which took place at a private party.

The report said: “But among the victorious Rangers players attending that night were those whose religion would usually make them suitable targets for the description of Fenian.

“Even if that had not been the case, the argument that the collective expression of offensive comments directed against others, and which have been found to be publicly unacceptable, becomes acceptable because it is a private social event, cannot be sustained.

“Indeed, this is a dangerous line of argument to pursue: it legitimates the maintenance and rehearsal of prejudicial views as long as their expression takes place among those who have self-categorised themselves as being like-minded.”

http://www.footballaid.com/events/view/63/game-2.html

Apparently we're the only team where paying football aid for a position gets you a proper 1st team game against SPL opposition!

bankiebhoy - the Sony will probably be better built but not 300 euros better, and unless she's going to be lugging it all over the shop, it's not likely to be a huge issue. The Sony might also have a better screen and sound. Is she going to be doing lots of movie watching on it?

Ultimately they're both going to do exactly the same thing. So take the cheaper option.

Ches 1

Even I know you cannae get
the fan belts for the ZX noo!

barca bhoy
Sounds like good
advice, ta

Bankiebhoy,

If it's a vaio and it get's lugged around and chucked on aeroplanes forget it. If it just sits on a desk it's fine. Switch + powerpoint design flaw!!!

By canamalar on November 23, 2009 12:25 PM
Paul67,
got to disagree on the second goal, loovens was fouled when he attampted to get between dodds and the ball, if you watch the replay you will see he is held long enough to give dodds the advantage.

Got to agree with you, Loovens was marking Dodds, Dodds made his run, but Goodwillie? had both arms around Loovens preventing him from going with Dodds.

By tommytwiststommyturns on November 23, 2009 12:34 PM

The wage bill for players is not nearly double £20M.

I reckon £27-£30M see

http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0Aq2m3ggkEX2RdFBJY2Z6amU2WG5zUU9LTUw5SWdDemc&hl=en

the individual figures are based on those bandied about without argument and extrapolations based on those.

There are around 63 staff on football ops the remaining 437 have to be paid from the £38.9M wage bill too.

That does not mean your underlying point re value for money is invalid, we still pay too much for what we get back, but might as well recognise that the wage bill has to stretch further than just the players and make some allowance for that.

Zbyszek.

I wish we had those players at the club now but we haven't anyone that can compare with them,we may struggle until we get some backbone to the defence.

The second goal for me summed up the way to defeat man-marking. Loovens was attempting to mark Dods - a poor attempt btw; he was wrong side of him from the off trying to hold onto his jersey. Dods spun away and Webster blocked Loovens' attempt to match him. It could have been given as a foul but it was poor defending also.

Prestonpans - after the Motherwell draw I said to several friends that I thought Brown and MacDonald played like men that had been told they had no future at the club. I stand by that.

I would not be surprised if MacDonald improves dramatically in December as he advertises himself to suitors. As long as we're not fooled by that and decide against selling him.

Auditors attacked over banks

MARK WILLIAMSON

Published on 23 Nov 2009

One of the UK’s leading experts on accountancy said the Big Four global firms should be barred from the lucrative business of auditing banks after failing to spot the problems that left taxpayers with a multi-billion-pound bill for propping up the sector.

In an exclusive article in today’s Herald, Prem Sikka, professor of accounting at the University of Essex, lambasted the giants for pocketing millions in fees for work that resulted in them giving a clean bill of health to the accounts of many firms that were heading for disaster.

“Auditors of banks could not tell the difference between a tent on Brighton beach or AAA security,” wrote Sikka.

“They too easily accepted management valuations and permitted banks to show toxic assets as good and report profits that did not exist.”

“At least $5 trillion of assets and liabilities simply vanished from bank balance sheets,” he said. “These audited accounts would easily have won the Man Booker Prize for Fiction. Yet no auditing firm has been investigated for its role in the banking debacle.”

A long-standing critic of the auditing profession, Sikka said the banking crisis has provided an opportunity to ban major accounting firms from the vital work of checking the accuracy of banks’ accounts.

He said the audit of banks should be entrusted to regulators, accountable to the taxpayer and to bank depositors rather than shareholders in the companies concerned.

“The above is a small but necessary step to cleaning up the auditing industry and ensuring that it serves socially desirable purposes rather than lining its own pockets,” said Sikka.

In a recent interview with The Herald, Scotland’s senior accountant rubbished suggestions that auditors had failed to detect the problems at leading banks that triggered the global recession.

Douglas Nisbet, president of the Institute of Chartered Accountants of Scotland, said big falls in the value of bank assets in recent periods did not mean they had been valued incorrectly in accounts covering preceding periods.

Noting that the demand for complex instruments like collateralised debt obligations collapsed virtually overnight, he told The Herald: “I think there’s a big distinction between what the value of assets on the balance sheet have moved to be given the crisis that we got into, as opposed to were they wrong at the asset value they were at before.”

At Royal Bank of Scotland’s general meeting in April, new chief executive Stephen Hester appeared to exempt auditor Deloitte from any blame for the problems which led to it requiring a £20bn bail-out from the taxpayer last year.

“We’ve found nothing to suggest any failure of external reporting,” he told reporters.

Deloitte received £58.8m in fees from Royal Bank last year, including £38.6m for the audit and £20.1m for other services. It was paid £31.4m in 2007.

Deloitte signed off RBS’s 2008 accounts as giving a “true and fair view” and did not qualify its audit opinion in any way. The resolution to reappoint the firm as auditor of the 2009 accounts was approved by 99.77% of votes cast at the general meeting.

Weeminger

Cheers mate

Darn it I know you are right
its a pity im a total ponce
when it comes to brands.

Dubai Bhoy

Thanks
Yep Vaio, looks like
a piece of jewelry,
while the Toshiba has a certain
"utilitarian" charm

Cheers

Bankiebhoy1 , I would only recommend the HP if my interview comes off ............

However if you are looking at a laptop at that level, try the XPS 13 and 15 models (I recently purchased one for a sports journalist friend, if its good enough for them then its good enough for you!) I also have one...........

Bankiebhoy

lol

if your looking to get any family member a games console may I suggest the Atari.

By far and away the most up to date graphics I have seen for Asteroids...

And keep this tae yirsel but if yir bein really flush at Xmas I would fill her stockings wi the new Sony Walkman.

Available in December.

JohnDanielskickininCSC

cardiffbhoy on November 23, 2009 12:34 PM

Very good post and your point was well made, I however have to disagree with you. The current Celtic team appear to have no direction, inspiration or determination. It doesn't matter which 11 Tony Mowbray sends out, they are collectively, in my opinion, demotivated, self-interested and passionless. Pro or anti Board is not the issue that needs sorting out here, it's the dressing room and on park morale, tactics & motivation.

I personally would not trust the manager with large funds in January. I was happy to give Fortune some time but he looks absolutely gutless and hopeless. Fox is certainly no better than Naylor. The performances against Falkirk and Hapoel were amongst the worst I have seen in close on 40 years.

Bring in Davie Hay (GM), Willie McStay and Neil Lennon, the latter would certainly sort the dressing room out.

Tony Mowbray needs an abrupt change in fortune
Graham Spiers

Shock Horror Britney reads CQN

Recommend?

Let’s look at the blunt facts so far for Tony Mowbray at Celtic. After yesterday’s 2-1 defeat to Dundee United at Tannadice his Celtic stats now read: Played 22, Won 9, Drawn 5, Lost 8. Little wonder increasing groups of Celtic fans are starting to severely criticise their manager.

Mowbray, with a start to his Celtic career like this, is entitled to feel hot under the collar.

As Davie Moyes, of Everton, said at the weekend: “It doesn’t matter what injuries or what future plans you have, a manager’s first job is to get a winning team with what he’s got.” By that token Mowbray is failing at Celtic, and needs an abrupt change in fortune — and fast.

Mowbray is perfectly entitled to claim in his defence that he has only effectively been in the job for four months. He is quite right also to say: “Give me 18 months, my own team, and then judge me.” Given that July 2009 was when Mowbray took up office at Celtic, and we are still not through with November yet, then clearly this is no time to be making any emphatic judgment about him.

Except for this. Moyes was right. A manager has to show fleeting glimpses of progress from the moment he steps in the door — this much is not unreasonable — and Mowbray is failing on this count. Yesterday’s defeat for his team against Dundee United was only their latest dispiriting setback. The truth is, even at the weary fag-end of last season Celtic did not look like a team that, with a new manager coming in, and with all the dynamism which you thought might spring from it, could win just nine of their opening 22 competitive matches.

January cannot come quickly enough for Mowbray. It is also going to be a huge month for the club’s board, given how much they owe their supporters. There is still a simmering resentment among many Celtic fans about the club’s failure to bring in new players last January — save for Willo Flood — and it is not a mistake the club can afford to repeat.

As for Mowbray, provided he receives the money to do so, he needs to convincingly show that he has an eye for good players who can significantly improve his team. Putting it bluntly, that means players better than Gary Caldwell, better than Stephen McManus, better than Scott McDonald, Barry Robson and the rest. It may be a tall order.

It is little wonder that there is a growing tension between Mowbray and certain sections of the Scottish media. In truth, few observers with a bit of spark about them could fail to watch this current Celtic form without being hard on Mowbray. As for yesterday’s defeat on Tayside, at a fee of £1.9 million, Celtic effectively spent more on one of Andreas Hinkel’s legs than Craig Levein has on his whole team.

Mowbray signed Landry N’Guemo on loan, with a view to a £1.5 million transfer, while Levein spent zip on Morgaro Gomis. There is, above and beyond all the published budgets in football, such a thing as good management, and Mowbray badly needs to start showing it. If he doesn’t, these already dwindling Celtic Park crowds will only go into a downward spiral, and make recovery for Mowbray and Celtic all the more difficult.

The Celtic manager was lauded when he first came to Glasgow — in this column as much as anywhere — and his reputation is not about to disappear overnight. Celtic had good cause to go and get Mowbray as their new manager, and he should still have time aplenty in which to let his talent flourish. But he and his team won’t be allowed to lurch along like this, in fits and starts, for much longer.

In Moyes’s words, here and now, Mowbray desperately needs “to start finding a winning team”. Celtic now face three home matches in succession — against St Mirren, Hapoel Tel Aviv and Aberdeen — and Mowbray badly needs a trio of wins.

His early campaign in Glasgow is sagging and has utterly confounded those who predicted a Martin O’Neill-style impact when Mowbray first arrived in Glasgow from West Bromwich Albion.

Peter Lawwell, the Celtic chief executive, will also be espying these three looming matches nervously. Lawwell and the Celtic board will somehow need to find £6 million to hand over to Mowbray in January for new players, and they won’t want to do this if the club is already engulfed in a crisis. Only Mowbray and his current players can help themselves.

And another thing...

Quietly confident

I’ve hardly known Ibrox Stadium quieter than it was during Rangers’ 3-0 win over Kilmarnock on Saturday afternoon. It was weird — at times you could hear a pin drop. Even the ever-marvellous Ibrox droning of God Save The Queen at the end sounded like it was 15 drowned rats reciting the chant. By the 85th minute — I timed it on the stadium clock — three-quarters of the stadium seemed near-deserted.

I dare say romping to a 3-0 lead by half-time kind of kills the spectacle, but, nonetheless, this was eerily striking. Do they do special cut-price tube-rates in Glasgow if you bag a seat before 4.45pm on a Saturday?

Early runners and riders

Here’s the current ratings on the prospective new Scotland manager:

Craig Levein A hot tip, and yesterday’s win over Celtic could not have been better timed. Levein’s only dilemma might be whether to leave Dundee United, where he currently earns more money, is successfully rebuilding his reputation after Leicester City, and from where he could move straight to the Old Firm, or even back down to England.

Joe Jordan Certain Tartan Army regiments would love Big Joe, but has he done enough in his own managerial career to justify such an appointment? Jordan hasn’t been a No 1 in over a decade now, which the SFA will surely see as a negative.

Jim Jefferies An appealing outsider to many (including me). Jefferies hasn’t enjoyed a career showered in silverware, but that’s partly because he has been at Kilmarnock for almost eight years. There is a certain know-how and toughness and work-ethic about JJ which might just suit Scotland.

Lars Lagerback This man’s name, I note, has entered the public domain in quite a few quarters over the past 72 hours. Whether what Scotland needs right now is an archetypal, stoical Swede is another matter. Moreover, Henrik Larsson couldn’t come and play for him.

Jimmy Calderwood For whatever reason Calderwood’s happy-go-lucky, slightly buffoonish image seems to smother his fine SPL achievements with Aberdeen. A gaggle of Pittodrie hot-heads who detested him, and express a lot of anti-Calderwood sentiment, probably doesn’t help his case. He remains, thus far, an outsider.

Kenny Dalglish Is also being mentioned in despatches, and the role would suit Kenny, leaving him with lots of free time for his golf. Perhaps not the answer, but you never know.

Come on then...who else is there?

Not keen on Keane

An Irish colleague said this to me three years ago: “It’s a perverse thing, you know, but a part of Roy Keane hates Ireland.” At the time I didn’t know what my colleague meant, but I do now, after watching Keane’s infamous dismissal of his home nation’s pain after the events in Paris last Wednesday night.

It is worth watching Keane’s Friday interview again on YouTube — the sheer venom and impatience shown towards Ireland’s plight, let alone the mad, darting eyes when some poor hack’s phone goes off. “Pathetic” and “mentally weak” are just two of the descriptions that Keane applied to his nation’s international team.

Ironically, these are precisely two of the descriptions that many Ipswich Town fans use to describe Keane, their manager, right now.

The worrying thing is that there is lots of apathy about our club now.
Frightening how fast it has changed.
Was sitting at the game against Rapid and said to my mates that I had now watched all the teams in our europa group and not one team had impressed me yet we were sitting bottom.

Che's 1

Why no mention of the Spectrum ZX81? Now that had a fine keyboard.

If getting a completely new team is the only way we can win the league this season, then we're sunk. The manager has already said it won't be easy to sign players in January.

Ship out all the under-achievers? That's not easy either. Even Gary Caldwell might decide to run down his contract, and if he does there's nothing Celtic can do about it.

We have a huge squad. There are players I keep forgetting we have. We have players who have been capped by Scotland, Poland, Germany, Holland, Cameroon, Ireland, N.Ireland, Greece and Australia (and Japan?) Compare that with Falkirk and Dundee United.

Why can't the manager can't get better performances out of these players? John Barnes got better results. John Barnes's failing was not losing to Inverness but losing the dressing room. Do we have that same situation now? I don't know. But if we do, then there is only one decision for the board to take.

Bhoydell

Good luck with the interview btw...
But how d'ye know
it'll be awright for me
if it's awright for yer
hoity toity "Sports Journalist"
Friend. Oooh!

Sports Journalist?
thought that was
an
oxymoron?

:)

I am astonished of forehead that Tony Mowbray claims that he set the team up to defend zonally. there is no way that those two corners were defended zonally.
at the second goal I was watching very carefully as Loovens and Caldwell went to their men and MARKED them. Samaras stood about doing not much. The positions taken up at the first goal were also very peculiar for a zonal system and Daly seemed to arrive late leaving behind Aiden McGeady who failed to track his run.

If that is Tony's vision of zonal marking then I may have to withdraw my support for him, either that or his defence just don't get it.

Paul 67 blames Caldwell for taking a step back at the first goal. wrong, the guy was marking someone else. watch it again. daly arrives late without a defensive player in tow, Caldwell sees it and leaves his man in a vain attempt to get across. I am no Caldwell fan but he is not to blame for that one.

I am really disturbed if that was supposed to be zonal defending. I would urge you all to look at it again. our CB's quite clearly mark individuals rather than space at both goals.

In the meantime, can we limp through to the January sales buy an aggressive CB and equally aggressive CF to drag us through to May? IS it realistic? I would give my eye teeth for those two types of players. What a difference they would make.

My ray of hope for this week is the young Marc Crosas. I am telling you all here and now he could be a great player. He is currently a very good one. never mind this nonsense about being lightweight. Let N'Guemo do the donkey work and Crosas dictate the tempo. One bright spot in a very dark storm.

Slightly off topic, but putting aside the failings of defenders, obstruction of goalie etc, what a about the delivery of the hurtful Utd corners? In my opinion, Utd's delivery of the corner kick (and the free kick which tested the keeper) was good. The same cannot be said of our own sporadic attempts. More often than not, our corners are either struck too strongly or fail to get beyond the first defender. This is not restricted to one individual as it seems to be prevalent throughout our set play takers and has occured in several games this season.
We need to start hurting teams when given the opportunity.

To many excuses on here saying there were fouls at the corners.
When Daly came on wasn't his first touch of the ball from a corner which sailed over the bar, then the next one came off the underside of the bar. Surely they were the warning signs more was to come and what did our blunderers do about it sweet FA!!
Culpable is too kind!! Paul, every game I've watched this season bar maybe two, opposing centre halves and forwards are better than ours?

Bankiebhoy1 I thought it would be good for you as it was for the sports journalist as you seem like a man likely to talk tosh in print on CQN and make things up !

BTW he is a radio presenter not a journalist as such.

Lubo,

I agree get rid of the players that couldn´t lace Larrson, Lambert, Viduka, Mjallby, Moravcik boots pronto like.

Hail Hail

How can people still defend Tony Mowbray on the basis that he wants rid of the fools who cost us on a weekly basis.
I want rid of them too but I realise we need them until replacements can be found. He has badly managed this team from early September and the results keep getting worse while our rivals sit unbeaten (although I do not think this will be for much longer as they have some hard games AWAY from home soon, starting this weekend where the Cardigan hasn't won since returning).

Tony Mowbray needed these players to be onside with him and he has not donw that. Many of them know they are on borrowed time and are not bothering their backside. I think the manager likes Boruc, Hinkel and McGeady (possibly maloney and his own players, though I fail to see why). He obviously like McGinn and McCourt enough to keep around and Barry Robson keeps on sticking up for him so there appears to be no problem there.

Crosas and Zaluszka are in at the moment and appear to have found favour.

That leaves:

McManus
Caldwell
Loovens
Caddis
Wilson
Naylor
Flood
Samaras
McDonald
Killen

Who all get it in the neck IMHO.

Plenty people on here give it to these guys (not all of them all of the time) but unfortunately WE NEED THEM. That is 10 players and at least 6 of them are required regularly. No wonder we have problems. Will we get 6 - 10 out in January and - 10 in? Doubtful unless we start dealing in loans for a short term fix. There are players who need game time before the world cup not playing at the moment but looking at his signings so far can we trust him? On current evidence NO. A resounding NO. Those are his players so Strachan canny get the blame of that.

Bottom line is he has shown himself incapable of managing the players who blew the league with one or two games to go and while we lost our best player he chucked out JVOH and Hartley who would give us far more than some still there.

JVOH or MAF? And JVOH would have stayed if he had been asked. Cost cutting exercise or the manager's fault? I imagine MAF is on similar money to JVOH (and MAF is costing us more in the long run)

This is going to be our worst season in 10 years. I hope I am wrong but I see no light at the bottom of this chasm.

Paul,

Whilst there is undoubtedly truth in what you post, I fear your article is missing the bigger point.

Yes, losing those goals might have been down to zonal as opposed to man marking. Yes, players mauy well have been fouled in the build up.

But these are details. The wider point is that our players are not very good. This lack of quality is the reason we are losing games and falling behind the bankrupts in the SPL.

And this stems from strategy at the very top.

Frankly, until we address the management of the club at the level of Peter Lawwell and above, we can talk all day about zonal marking and what-not.

It won't matter until we make a conscious decision to invest in quality.

Is it just me or do we not have any player capable of hitting the target with free kicks now.
Have watched various players this season and the ball always seems to be skied over the bar.
Surely it is not to much to ask that the goalie has to at least stop it hitting the target

EdinburghCelt

that's not out til 1982.

Am I in the right year???

Just seen a guy wearin legwarmers in Partick.

Che'szx81

Auldheid - I'm quite happy to have facts pointed out to me, so I'll assume that your figures are spot on. It's incredible the amount of money we pay to players who can't even carry out the basic requirements.
Strikers who can't trap or control a ball, midfielders who readily surrender possession and centre-backs who can't out-muscle Kenny Miller!
Or how about a maximum bonus to a CEO during a period of failure in Europe and in the SPL?!

I don't see how the situation can be resolved until the end of January. Christmas is cancelled Peter!

TTTT

roythebhoy

2 corners in the 1st half from Fox where almost identical to the DU corners (but from the other side), utd defended them easily.

The defence is to blame for the goals lost, MAF is to blame for not getting a shot away with 2 clear opportunities, instead he elected to take a touch, a terrible one at that. What's more, the first of those opportunities (as was highlighted by Burley - not that I'm a fan!) MAF turned and started to moan at McGeady - couldn't believe it.

Awe Naw,

I think you have missed the point of what I was arguing!

They're struggling to fill Regi Blinker's boots these days, never mind Lubo's.

Bankiebhoy1 don't know if its makes a difference but I know the guys in Tosh and Sony, they all post on Follow Follow ! ;-)

goldstar10 from earlier - do you think the increased singing of political stuff from our support (and sadly the stupid Roamin' in the gloamin' - thought that nonsense was consigned to history!) is a direct response to the fact that the Huns get away with far far worse - singing, rioting, nazi salutes etc etc - and get nary more than a wee slap on their clubs wrist?

the danger being that the SFA and SPL are far more likely to punish us than them. I was disappointed in that aspect of the support yesterday. Politics I don't mind, sectarian stuff - that's just hunnish.

Every year when the transfer window opens I normally have some player(s) which I hope are not moved on as I feel it would weaken the team.
This year I am struggling to have the same mindset

ItaliaBhoy

Surely our Manager's inability to organise a German International a Dutch International and two Scottish International defenders into a unit that can look competent when defending a corner has to be laid at his door?

I suppose Peter Lawell is somewhat culpable in that he appointed Mr Mowbray but to my mind a good hard nosed experienced football Manager would be able to fashion 11 players from our first team squad into a team that can compete in the SPL.

I'm totally unconvinced that Tony Mowbray can achieve that.

SwanseaBhoy

Awe_Naw -

One example quoted was said by a participant in the research to have taken place in the last five years in a well-off area where a house was on fire.

The report said: “Initially the house-owner refused to allow all personnel of the fire service to enter because he did not allow Catholics in his house.

“The leading fire officer in attendance, who was a Protestant, insisted that unless all of his crew were allowed to enter, no one would go in to extinguish the fire.”

If the homeowner would rather burn than risk allowing a Romish fireman in his house, that seems like a fair trade-off to me. I've got a feeling the man concerned probably won't need a jacket when he reaches the afterlife anyway. (thumbsup)

This bit is more sinister, however:

“Even if that had not been the case, the argument that the collective expression of offensive comments directed against others, and which have been found to be publicly unacceptable, becomes acceptable because it is a private social event, cannot be sustained.

“Indeed, this is a dangerous line of argument to pursue: it legitimates the maintenance and rehearsal of prejudicial views as long as their expression takes place among those who have self-categorised themselves as being like-minded.”

Yes, God forbid we have anything like free association or freedom of expression in private functions. What's next, will they be pushing for surveillance of people in their own homes, just in case they say something deemed offensive?

Furthermore, the "collective expression of offensive comments directed against others" can mean just about anything. Many gay rights activists view traditional Christian teaching on homosexuality as offensive - will the police be raiding Churches? Lots of offensive claims are directed at political opponents at party conferences - in a particularly nasty speech a few years ago Tony Blair blamed the "forces of conservatism" for everything from the Holocaust to the murder of Martin Luther King - should plod have weighed in? Animal rights groups often express hateful attitudes towards people involved in animal research - should they be jailed?

Far better for people like Donald Findlay to be free to make fools of themselves, and for the rest of us to be freely able to criticise them, than for us all to be worried about the midnight knock at the door because we've said something to upset the PC police.

Well we were looking for a performance to set us up for the rest of the season, I fear we might have got it. First half was not bad but the number of out of touch unconfident players in our team is killing us. Attackers taking an extra touch and defenders picking a man and standing next to him without actually challenging or communicating with each other is a sure sign of players looking after number 1. The way not one of or players went to attack either of those corners stank of a lack of commitment/desire. Someone on here put the problems far better than me it was along the lines of how we attack sporadically through Aiden McGeady whereas United commited men forward as a team. As for TM's comments regarding a gulf in class betewen ourselves and United, we may have not desereved to lose but if he thinks we are a class apart from Utd at the momnet he ie very wrong and I am very worried.

Paul67-

A good post, glad to see the manager not being crucified as he was yesterday from 2.30 onwards.

Are there any indications from the powers above that changes will happen in January.

On yesterday I have to say that McGeady was far and away our best player, his touch, attitude and work ethic puts a few others to shame. If one or 2 others had been on his wavelength we would have been out of site by half time. that is when we miss someone like naka , hopefully our korean bhoy will have a footballing brain and we'll get a couple of centre halfs who eat raw meat for breakfast. hate to restart the bobo debate, but I sat next to his brother and sister in the stadium in seville and I tell you she had more physical presence than any of our current centre halfs.

With each passing game we are losing confidence in beating even the teams at the bottom of our league

Paul 67,

You say that the key players should be retained.

Who are these key players?

I see no key players in the Celtic team.

I see teams every week, with different selections, devoid of leadership and key players.
Players taking on incompetence in rotation.

McGeady is our most skillful player, but consistently fails to dominate matches. He should be our key player.
Strapping centre-halves who cannot dominate in the air or read the play on the ground.
Full backs who cannot tackle or block crosses.
Strikers who can't/won't/don't strike!!!!
Worst of all, players who seem to have retreated under criticism from the manager. They really must have believed all of WGS's guff about being great players.

This is as bad as Brady/Macari/Barnes.

The balance sheet is under threat.

Che's 1

Legwarmers in Partick? Are you hanging about outside the Rosevale?

Do any of us have a starting 11 we believe that sticking with week in week out will turn things around

cardiffbhoy on November 23, 2009 1:15 PM

How much would Ms Badle cost? Could we swap McManus for her? :-)

DesperationCSC

DD

SwanseaBhoy,

Sadly BTM is not immune from blame. He doesn't appear to know his best team, cannot seem to organise tham into a coherent formation, and, very worryingly for those who know their history, it appears he may have lost the dressing room.

However, the quality of our play and our results has been in decline for sometime now- a decline which predates BTM.

Therefore, I think questions have to be asked at a higher level than just the manager.

By roberttressell on November 23, 2009 1:10 PM

I have been making the point ad nauseum that the failure of the SPL to act on the A Dick report totally undermines Celtic's Unacceptable Behaviour policy, something that Celtic should be pointing out pre emptively to the very guys who would want to crucify US for their irresponsibility.

Rothesaybhoy

Thats the big problem, it's what worries me most, the 11 he started with yesterday was what I would have went with. Would like to see Zhi upfront/in behind front 2, but do think we need to stick with a pairing for at least 3/4 games even though MAF has shown absolutely nothing to suggest he is the answer. Not felt like this for a long long time.

Tony Mowbray had us playing good football in the close season with lots of variation.
We also started the league well so I can only take it that something has gone very wrong in the dressing room.

robertressell- I thought it may be a reaction to all the Poppygate shenanigans 2 weeks ago- an act of defiance- but to be truthful, I really don't know. I don't travel in a big group so I don't know what the thinking is among them.

Your theory may be closer to the truth- a sort of "if the Huns can get away with it then so can we" attitude.

bjmac03
Appreciate what you say about Fox's two good deliveries, although haviong not seen the TV version and commentators comments, I accept that my memory has chosen to overlook those deliveries as the negatives have far outweighed the positives from yesterday. I do remember turning round to a guy next to me as I came out the bogs at the Celtic end and we were both exasperated and both agreed that the free kick just taken was the "third" poor delivery of the first half.
There have been numerous other instances throughout the season. Its all part of the genral malaise I suppose as even Danny Fox seems to be "adapting" to the standard.
As for MAF, well I learned my lesson with Big John Hartson when he first arrived. The early signs are not good but I'll have to remain neutral on that one for the time being.
I'm definately not a Burley fan either!

Hail Hail

Bournesoup

Cheers

She's awready got a "mac"

moi!

(burrum tishhhhh)

MM
Have always been of the opinion that rotation only works in a winning team, not one low in confidence.

Give the manager a chance to sort it out,

Tony came in and took over a team that had been in serious decline for the past two years, anyone who watched celtic over that time could see that major surgery was required and not the sticking plaster we got. I think tony's biggest mistake was coming out and saying the players weren't good enough and would be replaced if possible, everyone knew who he was talking about and those players have been going through the motions ever since.It's difficult when things aren't going well but i think Tony deserves a chance to put together his own side before he's fully judged.

Agree costanza,
Feel that a lot of the players are only interested in self preservation

Ulster Celt

Cheers mate

Think Toshiba wins

Lubo.

I think you missed mine ;-)

Philvis

surprised you didn´t find this part (see below) the most sinister but I do agree with your assertions. I find it sad that such groups feel it necessary to have clandestine meetings. Thats a sure fire way to be labelled something akin to the Mafia for the mediocre. The poor fella who only wanted his daughters rescued from the fire that he caused by good protestant stock will have a lot of explaining to do one day. I suggest that the donkey in the upstairs spare room kitted out in Basque, suspenders and pink high heels will be part of his daughters repeating nightmares. I say free the donkey but protect it from being made to dress up like a tart for cheap thrills. Driving the Donkey and the Donkey dresser upper underground does not help civilised society

The STUC report declared: “It was worrying to learn that in 21st century Scotland examples of direct discrimination against Catholics could still be reported.“It is also a concern that nothing was done about this in these places of employment. “Trade union activists relayed these examples but they had initiated no action themselves. “This is revealing example of the way that sectarianism can become so embedded within the culture that, although these informants disapproved of it, no opposition to its practice took place.”

Hail Hail

Think we have to bring in at least one solid and feared centre half who can boss our defence as we are rudderless at the moment

Anybody know any Paul elliot types?

Awe Naw,

"I think you missed mine". It's very easy to miss your point.

Lubo,

At least your honest bud

Hail Hail

Costanza

Good point. 2 years ago we were 10 points behind Rangers and managed to win it on the last day after a great run and a Rangers collapse. Last season we were ahead in January so didn't spend with the resultant ceding of the championship to a poor Rangers team. The cracks have been there for years but have not been tended to. Tony Mowbray deserves time to sign some players to try and improve the team he inherited.

The question is, if the Board don't supply the funds then how can he improve matters? Also, and rather worryingly, Mowbray seems unable to get the best out of what he has. This could be down to either disaffected players or Mowbray's management style or a combination of both. If he's given the funds to improve, time will tell. If he's not then I fear for the future.

EdinburghCelt

never been in it. Never will. Cesspit.

But the legwarmers are a goer. We guy ootside Partick subway sells them.

I can see Xmas presents springing to your mind.

; )

shae's1

rothesaybhoy

I suggest we sign Bobo Balde in the January window.

Afternoon all.
I understand the point of your article Paul, but I still say the buck stops with the manager. We shipped three goals against Falkirk and that had hee-haw to do with zonal marking but rather more to do with incompetent defending.
You said earlier reserves are reserves for a reason - Aye and they will remain reserves unless they are given a chance. Personally, I thought Scott Cuthbert was a defender worth a shot in the first team, but he never got near it, before being punted out the door.
The Thompsons, Marrs, Laffertys and Misuns of this world must be given a chance or we will never know if they can be good enough. One thing we know for certain is that the current incumbents are not.
Incidentally, over at Mordor, Smith is talking up his teenage centre back, a boy who was forced into the team because (allegedly) they won't play Bougherra. I haven't watched the Huns but it appears the teenage reserve has not let them down.

If Tony Mowbray continues to rely on the same three central defenders, then hell mend him. He can take it on the chin if he wants....Me, I'd rather put up a decent defence and start fighting back.

donegaldanny - we could have Ms Balde and Michelle McManus for free I reckon. not much would get through that

Che's 1

Good to hear - stick to the Dolphin and the Smiddy.

I know the guy you mean. He also sells white sports-socks @ a 'pound-a-pair'.

I was sent this by GL2,will either make you happy or sad-

Centenary Double

Rothesayboy

Our defenders do have the fear factor, they put the fear of god into me :o)

Ernie,
Dunno if Bobo is the answer as he just as susceptible of crazy decisions.
I remember too many champs league penalties or handballs from the above

Is the dissatisfaction that Caldwell has with his employers TM´s fault ?

Is the dissatisfaction that Mc Manus has with his employers TM´s fault ?

Is the dissatisfaction that O´Dea has with his employers TM´s fault ?

That leaves us with one proven centre back Glen Loovens who is carrying a groin injury ?

Hail Hail

Ha ha Paul,
Thats what i mean not one of them commands the box or leads by example.
Fix the basics and we have have a chance.
As Jock said its an easy game, its footballers that make it difficult.

EdinburghCelt

you know your Partick pubs. : )

but beware those wee sock. Sounds like a bargin but I bought them last Xmas and after one wash the dye ran.

I now only use them for work.

DM Hoeys is a better option.

Shay's1

rothesaybhoy

The problem with the Chuckle Brothers isn't crazy decisions.

It's a lack of ability.

Bobo could be a bomb scare at times but he was never, ever bullied off a ball.

How often did you see an attacker lose interest in a challenge when they saw who they were up against?

hiro get your eye patches off mcgeady delivered yesterday with 3 gilt edged chances so why do you pick on our best most influential talent ffs
i said after the falkirk game that the holy goalie would have saved 2 of the goals we lost and i will reiterate that for all our defencive faults the keeper was at fault for BOTH goals yesterday both headers were inside 6yd box and he was stuck on the goalline like a rabbit in headlights pushing there player like a little ball instead of getting in the correct position to attack the ball
i thought that overall ngwemo and crosas dominated the midfield mcgeady was excellent hinkel was ok
robson was overall poor caldwell and loovens havent got power or presence mcdonald contributes nothing maf at least did get into scoring positions but looks so short of confidence mcginn came on and looked like a schoolboy samaras is and always will be waste of space and fox looks no better than naylor

give mowbrey time and money i think he can do a good job as people have pointed out the same players failed last year so give tm a bit of slack

i have only seen quick highlights of the goals,
the huge gaping hole that the celtic defence decided to make, was of an u-13 standard. at both goals, i would be asking questions as to why samaras did a goalpost impression. whether the ball wasnt near enough to him or not.

i find it incredible that whilst defending a corner kick, a player stands as still as a subutteo player.

as for caldwell and loovens ??? if they are told to mark zonal, and they decide to man mark, then the manager must boot them right out to the u14s.
naw, forget that, they would only set us back years.

if BTM was to play 2 14yr olds at cb next week, abd got bt 2-1 with 2 mistakes, im sure we would be clapping him for having the gumption to finally get rid of bombscare defenders who beleive they are international class.

luxembourg class more like.

There is no logic behind reverting (for one game only ) to a zonal marking system using players who proved last season that they couldn`t play in that system

In fact there is little logic in most of TM`s selections and formations

Nice guy poor manager

whose bright idea was it to go into the season with a 'dead men walking' team ?

By tommytwiststommyturns on November 23, 2009 1:06 PM

I would call it intelligent guess work rather than facts, but I do think it important that some of the points raised about Celtic (Board or Players - for we all support The Club) are checked out to see if they stand up.

My view is that football players are paid way too much for what they give back in return and that the money that goes into their bank accounts and out of the game is the major reason why the game is in the state it is in.

But just as we all seek someone to blame and start looking higher up the command chain, from player to manager to Board to Owner I find it incomprehensible that we stop there and do not look at why they at that level behave in the way that they do and make allowances for the context they have to work under.

You might be interested in the following from an Ernst Young (Germany) report Football Meets Finance IV.

According to our comprehensive
analysis using a range of indicators
to determine competitive balance in the
national leagues, the leagues in Germany
and France are the most balanced by a wide
margin. While the leagues in Italy and Spain
trail well behind, the Premier League in
England is by far the most predictable. One
main reason for the positive distinction of
the Bundesliga and Ligue 1 in France is the
central marketing of broadcasting rights
and the resulting relatively even distribution
of revenue between clubs . The high volume
of money spent by investors in England has
had a significant impact on competition.

Therein lies the problem too much money concentrated in the hands of too few. Until such times as ways are found to address this problem (and the Finacial Fair Play Committee is a start) Celtic have to operate in that context.

The real question though is why not take a leaf out of Dundee Utd's book and do what they do - buy cheaper players that can do a job but just a few more than they can to cover injuries and loss of form?

There is a question for you, if we had Utd's players rather than our own on Utds wage bill, would the support be happier at the ratio of return to wage bill?

I'm not so sure but lets see if anyone else has a view.
Maybe the problem is our support have not downsized their expectations?

Lots of criticism for Fortune. Agree he hasn't look great yet. Bear in mind though he has played around 600 minutes for Celtic so far and has completed 90 minutes only twice. He has 2 goals and 2 assists in that time. His minutes per goal/assist are on a par with Samaras and McDonald so in that sense he is doing no worse.

I'd suggest we let him settle in.

Rothesaybhoy
Do you remember a game during the xmas period a couple of years aga against Dundee United when GS was forced to play Balde and he never missed a header all day? Levein said after the game that when Balde was picked he had to change his system because he knew he couldnt bully us. It was our first away clean sheet for ages and a very comfortable victory.Guys like McManus etc are no better than players of the past like Mark McNally etc. Just shows you how far we have fallen when they are first team picks.
Hail Hail

I remember watching the end of the recent Chelsea v. ManU game, with Chelsea defending a 1-0 lead with minutes to go. ManU were pumping in high balls from corners and free kicks. The Chelsea defenders got their head to the ball as if their life depended on it. It's not about the marking system, it's about the players' attitude.

TM has been moaning about the international matches and how it doesn't give him time to work with the team. He reckons that we should see a big difference now that the internationals are past. We'll see.
One of the things he has to work on is the free kicks. I don't think I've seen a decent one since Naka left.We had a few free kicks at Dundee and not one on target. The last one in the first half it was obvious that nobody had the cofidence to shoot and it was passed out wide and we lost possesion right away.
.

going back onto the corners,

zaluska, like boruc, dont tend to leave their line.

BUT surely when you know what is happening in front of them, that they must have discussed changing their approach ????

speaking to an ex senior goalkeeper yesterday, he said as much, and believes the lack of trying different things is what is most frustrating.

he was a goal line keeper too. but he said he would have to be bombing out with all guns blazing.

(like mcgregor on kyle yesterday)

By PF ayr on November 23, 2009 1:50 PM

There was a logic, Utd had bigger players that TM thought would outmuscle us man to man (which is logical if they are actualy bigger), so we went zonal to deny them space.

Where it went wrong was either not stopping them geting into that space or them knocking us out of the way because they were indeed bigger. (Webster on Loovens)

The logic was fine, the execution faulty.

The Lizard King

Agreed. Fortune should be given time. Most people understand that when a player has been out injured for several weeks it can take a few games to find their touch and get up to speed.

Let's sort the defence out first!

Auldheid

there is no logic in asking players to do something that they plainly cannot do

Ernie,
Thats what I meant by us looking for a solid pair of centre halves to leave the oposition only capable of scoring with long range shots.
Saying that on recent showing we would still struggle to shut them down.
Dunno why our opponents always seem capable of shutting us down yet we seem to stand off them and let them play.
We never seem to man mark from throw-ins or corners

Mackybhoy,

A good point about the keepers.

It's worth noting that our current goalkeeping coach was also a bit of Dracula when it came to crosses; so i'm not to sure how much they work on that side of the game.

Can I suggest two players for January who are out of favour at their current clubs.

One is Danny Sh1ttu at Bolton for CH and the other is Heider Helguson who's currently on loan at Watford from QPR for CF. My brother is a Watford fan and knows both of these players well but I had first hand experience of Heider at the weekend. What a performance this guy put in, nothing is done in half measures everything is effort, strength, and power how he's not getting a game at QPR is beyond me but he would destroy defences up here through sheer effort alone. One problem with him however is he's inclined to stick his head where others won't even put a boot and therefore he's prone to injury but watching him made me yearn for Sutton or a young Hartson in our forward line.

Sh1ttu to me is a no brainer if he's not injured I'd have him up here if not permanently then on loan in January.

Just my tuppence worth on a pretty depressing day...

pf:

can the man mark tho ???

a previous poster summed it up perfectly,

ATTITUDE.

Minutes per goal/assist

Stats are magic. I love them.

Frinstance, there is a lobby in Norway against Wind Turbines because of the risk of turbine blades accidentally colliding with Sea Eagles. Apparently wind turbines kill 9 Sea Eagles per year.

Fair enough you might say but...

...Motor cars kill 1 Million birds per year in Europe, so if you want to save birds, ban cars, and then you won't need the energy form the turbines in the first place.

And while we're at it, domestic cats kill 55 million birds each year in Europe. Ban domestic cats and the birds will truly prosper.

However, cars kill 1 million domestic cats in Europe each year, leading to a consequential reduction in the number of birds killed by such splatted cats.

So, if you truly want to save birds, build the turbines and put more cars on the road.

Makes sense to me....

Yeah Paul I remember it well.
Just felt that mjallby and joos were better defenders than bobo.
Just my opiniion though, and thats what ita all about.
4 guys can watch a game and all see different aspects.
Remember Paul Elliot as well and wish we had someone of that ilk in our team

The problem with football these days is we spend so much time debating the wrong thing. We would have conceded both of those goals yesterday whether or not we played zonal marking or man to man. I think that is a no-brainer and I said so last season when the common theme was 'I can't wait until Strachan goes and takes this system that doesn't work with him'. As if Strachan leaving would mean that we never conceded another goal from a set piece. The hatred of zonal marking makes about as much sense as saying you can win nothing with kids.

For most of yesterday's game we were the better team and we created enough chances to win several games against Dundee United. Poor teams who score goals (let me think of one who play in blue...)paper over the cracks whilst doing so. We can't even paper over the cracks because we do not own a single goalscorer, not one.

Paul 67

You skillfully avoid discussing the manager whilst drawing attention to the deficiancies in the defence and attack.

I'm in a quandry about BTM.

Firstly he has inherited a squad of players with significant weaknesses and has not been able to substantially improve it. However is that squad so poor that we should win only 40% of our games?

If the manager has a certain ethos and yet his squad lacks players capable of playing that way should he not find a style of playing that does.

We have discussed a lot about style and entertainment and the Celtic way. However, first and foremost the Celtic way is about winning!

BTM needs to start winning. With trips to Motherwell , Hearts , Kilmarnock and Rapid Vienna before we play Rangers the next month may be unbearable for him if he can't. He asked for five or six transfer windows but further mishaps and the majority of the support won't give him another one.

Start winning Tony.

ches 1

dm hoeys is for blacknecks :)

glendalystonsils

Disagree about the last free kick in the first half. I was at Tannadice and said to my mate at the time that Caldwell was telling Robson he wanted Fox to take it and Robson was saying he had taken one from there and had a sighter so he was having it.
Caldwell then nips in and passes to Aiden who looked surprised to have the ball.

I thought Caldwell apart from being a very poor defender was an appaling Captain and interfered in every free kick, he even spoke to Robson just prior to him taking the Penalty.

Paul67
I think a couple of things need to happen quickly

TM needs to start taking control of an obviously split Dressing Room and shift the troublemakers out of the first team picture and in doing so carry out the second thing by giving the armband to someone who wants to lead and set an example. e.g. Crosas
TM does not exude an air of confidence and his teams do not take to the field looking like they think they will win.

Finally what does Peter Grant do? I would like to think his passion for all things Celtic would have him motivating these guys to at least put in a performance.

Hail Hail
Stephen with a "ph"

Any one else feel Tony doesn't come across good in interviews???

I thought his post match comments were out of touch.

I was there. We were dreadfull in all areas.

Heid being the captain in current stand off says it all for me.

I agree with previous post in so much as attitude of players but the managers job is to resolve said problems and he no daein it.

He's coming across defeated, forlorn and not my fault-theirs.

Not what I expect from the cheif public ambassador of Celtic FC.

He looks like a man already resigned to his fate.

I think there will be changes in January but not what we expect.

I hope I'm wrong but I bet there ain't a cqn'r out there who would be too upset if he moved on.

Peter Grant? Mark Venus?

Enough already.

Che's1 for the money......

why doesnt mowbray start taking responsibility for the mess we have to watch on a weekly basis? all ive read today is mowbray blaming everyone else for what went on,ive no money,need more players blah blah blah,take some responsibility for the results . a good workman never blames his tools afterall

The death of spirit and confidence the crept into the team last season and resulted in losing the league and the end of Strachan looked initially to have been corrected by Mowbray. Pre season was good – the 2nd string played well when given a chance against good opposition. There then followed 8 goals in 2 games against Aberdeen and St Johnstone, and backs to the wall wins indicative of good team spirit against Hibs and Moscow.

Something terrible happened between the end of the transfer window and the Dundee Utd game on 12th Sept. Since then, the heart, guts and spine have been ripped out the team. The stench of division is palpable. This is a very sick camp.

What happened? There have been lots of rumours:

 The captain being offered to Ipswich
 Other players being touted round by Lawwell
 Divisions in the camp (the McDonald, McGeady, Brown, Caldwell cliché for e.g.)
 New and foreign players being left to sit alone at functions
 Crisis meetings
 And so on

I don’t know what happens behind closed doors but this scenario is death for a sporting team. Our players do not need to love each other, they don’t need to like each other, heck the probably don’t even need to respect each other that much provided they never lose the minimum professional requirement for a team sports player – the understanding that the team stands and falls as one. That basic understanding seems lost from Celtic.

I do not know how we resolve this. But I do know this is where the attention should be – everyone could raise their game and make better decision: Lawwell; Reid; the coaches; the physio, everyone – but it starts with mending the collective psyche of the team.
We have the best and biggest squad; early season proved that when motivated, good results would follow.
That is your challenge Tony – you are the guardian of team spirit and morale.

HENRY A DAMAGED BRAND – 21/11/09

Thierry Henry could pay a heavy price for his hand ball that gave France victory over Ireland. Henry has been earning £15m a year from sponsorship deals. He has been the face of global brands including Renault, Nike, Gillette and Pepsi. Between 2001 and 2006 he earned a reported £14m from Nike, a company he ditched in 2006 to sign with Reebok for a signing-on fee believed to be over £19m. With a certain irony, Reebok use him in advertising campaign entitled 'Play Responsibly'. He replaced David Beckham as one of the faces of Gillette and this earns him around £2m a year. The company said it picked Henry because he embodied 'true sporting values'. He also earns £3m a year from Pepis-Cola, as well as promoting the Thomas Hilfiger fashion label. However, now his brand has suffered serious reputational damage. It may affect his attempt to follow Beckham into the lucrative US market through his proposed move to MLS side New York Red Bulls next season. Fans and therefore sponsors in the US tend to care more about the moral standards of their sporting heroes.

TOP SCOTTISH CLUBS OWE £100m – 21/11/09

Scotland's top football clubs are carrying debt totalling nearly £100m. Rangers and Hearts owe about £30m each, Kilmarnock and Aberdeen approximately £9m each, Dundee United £6.6m and Hibernian £3.6m. Stephen Morrow, head of Sports Science studies at the University of Stirling, said, 'It is difficult to see, in the current trading model that Scottish football is in, how they can find a way to pay that off. That's not to say that can't manage that debt. They can look after the interest payments on it but unless something changes in the structure or the finances of those clubs - or something substantial changes in their trading environment - then all they will be doing is very, very slowly bringing the debt down.' He does not, however, expect to see a SPL club to enter administration in the immediate future. He also pointed out that the sums involved were relatively small compared to most business debts banks were dealing with.

Che's 1- Susan Boyle doesn't come across well in interviews but by God she can sing. (not another singing debate, please)

But can Big Tony manage- the X factor jury is still deciding on that one.

By The Battered Bunnet on November 23, 2009 2:03 PM

Fair enough - it is easy to hide behind stats and your post was excellent in highlighting this (as well as funny but maybe that is just me). I really only wanted to make the point that for Fortune, as with most things in life now where we have the instant ability to rage online and judge all and sundry instantly, that we may want to give the lad time to settle and adjust after his injuries.

I doubt it will save many birds, or cats for that matter though!

Now that I have slept on it my initial anger over yesterdays result has receded.It has now been replaced by fear that if what Tony Mowbray said after the match "that he was pleased with the overall performance".Does this mean he is not going to change anything and we,ve just got get used to this crap

timjim

mowbray is out of his depth at celtic

Guys

a sobbering tale in the midst of our little troubles

one of my colleagues collapsed in the office this morning and has dsubsequently died, aged 56 and with a teenage family

you never know the minute

Ming

Tony Mobray needs time and time I hope he gets. I am upset, angry and frustrated the way Celtic are throwing away games but I can't blame this manager for the squad he inherited. This team can't be revamped over 2 transfer windows which leaves me resigned to loan player for January and hopefully a mass exodus in the summer.

The way Mobray is perceived in the media doesn't bother me, their opinion of our manager has no bearing on mine.

I think the problem with the team is that they are not happy with their boss, he made a few comments about the squad expecting them to up their game ( a good kick up the 4rse) but unfortunately it’s back fired causing uproar and disharmony.

A few points about the game yesterday.

I have been a very vocal critic of Aiden McGeady, mostly because I think he is so good and should be contributing much more but yesterday he played very well. He ran at the defence and made some wonderful passes. The run and pass to Fortuné was first class and should have been a goal. I think he tired late on but probably due with having to do so much. Interesting to see him playing on the left hand side where I think is his best position,

To me the main problem yesterday was playing Barry Robson on the right. He is the most one footed player I have seen in a long time. On a couple of occasions in the first half he got down the line but had to cut back onto his left when a right foot cross could have been much better. A few mins later he had a similar chance and crossed with his right but it skewed off and went out for a goal kick.

If we are playing that formation, Niall McGinn would be a much better option. he has pace and can cross a ball. Unfortunately when he came on he didn't see much of the ball for one reason or another but he did put the ball into the back of the net although he was marginally offside. There were at least 2 occasions when he was free on the right in acres of space crying out for the ball but his teammate either didn't see him or neglected to pass it out to him.

The less said about the defence the better as it been covered by many here today and yesterday but suffice to say I think we need 2 new centre backs (or Misun if fit) come January.

In fairness, I don't like being behind Rangers in the league but I half jokingly said earlier in the season it might be better if we were behind come January so that the purse strings could be opened and some worthwhile investment done in the team.

We are home to St Mirren on Saturday. I would go with a different team on Saturday starting with Thompson and AN Other as Centre backs, the latvian Kurakins at left back and Caddis at right back.

I would stick with a similar midfield of Crosas and N'Guemo with Aiden on the left and Niall on the right and Paddy in a hole behind a lone striker of James Forrest.

This would let us see if these young players are good enough to step up to the first team on a permanent basis while at the same time, giving the "regulars" who have underperformed a good kick up the backside.

Hail Hail

Mort

Exiled Bhoy

a sobering thought indeed.

My own thoughts go out to everyone affected

Hail hail

Exiled
Puts all our wingeing in perspective.
May he rest in peace

@ Stephen 2:08.

Could'nt agree more about Caldwell, was actually screaming at the big screen for him to eff af. I've never seen such a nonentity of a player interfering as much as him. Robson should have told him to get lost. Big Tony get rid of Caldwell NOW.

Mort

the last time we were behind them in January the board did sanction money and we got Hinkel, Samaras, Robson along with some young players which won us the league ultimately.

Perverse logic but I know where you are coming from.

As I am careering toward 50 I realize that you have to live for the day.
When the big man calls your no. your teas oot as they say

Exiled Bhoy- a very distressing experience.

My prayers are with your colleague's family.

RIP.

Goldstar

subo ain't manager of Celtic.

Much more required from the top man.

Leadership cascades down from the top and so far BTM's teams are reflecting his image. Unfortunately.

PS I hear Subo is playin the burns howff.

Auldheid on November 23, 2009 12:49 PM

There are around 63 staff on football ops the remaining 437 have to be paid from the £38.9M wage bill too."

Auldheid,

Of the remaining 437, a very significant proportion are part time employees. We can't possibly have 500 full time employees. I suspect there are circa 60 full time at Parkhead, and 8 or 9 at Lennoxtown. The rest will consist of programme sellers, gate operators, stewards, catering staff for match days and random security and other jobs. I would be amazed if we have a wage bill of any more than £5 million for that, even allowing for the excessive amount paid out to executive directors

By timjim on November 23, 2009 2:23 PM
"Now that I have slept on it my initial anger over yesterdays result has receded.It has now been replaced by fear that if what Tony Mowbray said after the match "that he was pleased with the overall performance".Does this mean he is not going to change anything and we,ve just got get used to this crap"

Post match 101 from the Alex ferguson managerial handbook - deflect attention after a bad defeat away from the players. You could say he is learning? What if he had come out and repeated the things on here yesterday about some of the players? Would you respect his honestly? I'm not having a go mate - the biggest truism in football is if you are not getting the results then everything you say or do is open to criticism. We both agree he needs to start getting results. Fix the team spirit and this will happen - with this manager.

New manager...New team...New board.

Have we become Real Madrid all of a sudden?

All we need is a striker who can score goals and scare defences.

With Jermaine Defoe playing so well, Robbie Keane may not be such a bad shout!

By PF ayr on November 23, 2009 1:59 PM

His judgement was faulty then but not his logic. Ok I'm being pedantic, but there was a rationale for the change it was not done on a whim.

ExiledBhoy

Awful to hear that, very sorry for the poor man and his family.

HH

cavan,
I had a high opinion of hypia but again it all depends on players wanting to play in our league

ExiledBhoy

Tragic.

Perspective indeed.

SwanseaBhoy

By barcabhoy on November 23, 2009 2:34 PM

Aye and Ch67 staff and physios and community coaches and doctors and HR etc etc etc. Wages plus Ni mounts up.

So either our player wage bill is between £27M and £30M or £27M and £33M its still not £40M. Have a look at the breakdown per player and tell me which ones are over and which ones under estimated.

You will have to uprate quite a few individual wages to reach £33M.

The issue with zonal marking is, if the opposition bunch 4 or 5 of their players together in one area, as Utd did, then they will be able to out power the one or two Celtic players that are marking that zone, whilst we have 3 other players marking fresh air.

Fresh air can't score goals, players can - so why mark fresh air?

its amazing how suddenly there are two wholly seperate worlds, one where I want to be arguing about all things Celtic, but a much more important one where an office of 300 people has just dissolved in grief

one thing comes to mind, whereever you are and who ever you are, when you go home tonight tell those who matter to you how much you love them, you never know when its going to be taken away

morbid I know, sorry

M

pflan76

your having a laugh surely,we have a defence that cant defend a midfield thats all over the place and a strikeforce that couldnt hit a barn door with a tractor and you think we only need a striker.
what one are you mowbray or lawwell?

It is unrealistic to change all the players because the manager is unable to get the best out of them. This clearly is the case. Therefore we should change the manager. We made a big mistake in the summer, recognise it and get in someone who can manage on a shoestring. What about Levein and Lennon?

I'd rather they had whatever funds are available to strengthen and I'm sure they'd get much more out of those player who are lucky enough to survive the January cull.

afternoon all

came across this on t'internet. i dont know how accurate it is though...

http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0Aq2m3ggkEX2RdFBJY2Z6amU2WG5zUU9LTUw5SWdDemc&hl=en

hail hail

Gerry

Paul67, have heard from a couple of sources that BTM offered his resignation 2 weeks ago and it was refused by PL - have you heard anything about this?

Is it a case of the job too big for him or is it a threat re what he will do if he doesn't get the backing of some hard cash in January?

On the subject of Centre-Halves playing for the jersey and being committed...

http://www.mirrorfootball.co.uk/opinion/columnists/simon-bird/Why-this-image-of-smashed-up-Emanuel-Pogatetz-can-spark-Boro-s-season-to-life-article230293.html

C_H

To say I was a fan of Gordon Strachan is an understatement, I loved the wee man, there were things he did that infuriated the life out of me but I supported him until the day he left.

I know a majority will see this a the ultimite in happy clapping but I was genuinely happy as a Celtic supporter when he was in charge. I knew our players were limited and like all fans would have been glad to hae seen loads of money spent on new players but was realistic enough to know that just wasn't going to happen and so learned to enjoy watching us win the league and progress to a new stage in Europe.

I'm not so happy now and while all the blame can't be laid at Tony Mowbray's door, I feel even with the players we have now a different manager may have been able to get more out of them.

Passion is one of the things football supporters love. I loved seeing Martin O'Neill leap about when we scored, similarly with Gordon Strachan, he looked genuinely happy when we scored and won matches. His ability at getting the team to fight to the very end of matches to secure a point or a win was fabulous. Even when we weren't playing well come the last five mins if we needed something, I was always confident we would score. Against Falkirk even with 10 mins left I didn't think we would get the goal, similarly yesterday there was no confidence we would get a winner, let alone an equaliser when it came to it.

From what I have seen this season, Tony Mowbray doesn't have the passion. It's sad as a former player I had high hopes for him but these are diminishing on a weekly basis and for apart from John Barnes, I have never wanted to see a Celtic manager leave since tha bad old days of Brady and Macari. One manager who does have passion and is almost unemployed is Slaven Bilic who won't be going to the World Cup with Croatia.

He is the one candidate from the summer that I think would really have excited the fans, especially with his contacts in Croatia, I'm sure he could get us some of their up and coming players and maybe others from similar regions.

Change will cost money, for a start there will compensation to be paid to those currently in charge and also compensation to the Croatian FA (assuming he is still under contract) and then there is a transfer kitty which will be needed even if we do get rid of some of our assets.

However, what the board need to think about is how much will it cost us if the present situation continues.

Mort

Mort

Guus Hiddink, similarly?

when martin left it was slowly at first but still down hill now that train has got so fast its hard to stop now without major investment,and to be honest there is no chance of that unless we get silly money for our better players,when all said and done some of the players there now are really poor, i think gordon wanted to get away from the big strong tough players that we had as he wanted his own team but in my opinion he left us with a bunch of wimps who when up against a strong physical team just cant handle it they are easily intimadated,look at the matches against the other mob since smith came back he has had the better of the exchanges in most matches simply because they bully this team.

Auldheid

I don't really know how accurate the spreadsheet is. I would doubt it could be bang on as Celtic, quite rightly, don't disclose players individual salaries. If you take Scott Brown as an example, the ex Rangers Chairman bleated at the time that he wouldn't pay £25k a week as it would upset their structure. Taking that as a single example, then the spreadsheet is already £300 k light.

I would also be surprised in Fortune' was only on £20k as well. Darcheville was on £23k at ibrox, and we beat off Premier League opposition for a younger better player.

It's all supposition and guesswork, but one thing i think we agree on is that we don't , and haven't for a few years, get value for money. The Celtic board have publicly on a number of occasions, stated that we are currently spending as much in salaries as we did during the Seville season. Even allowing for wage inflation, the value we have been getting for 3 years has been miserable by any comparison, but especially with Seville.

We have the best strike rate in the SPL.

By gerrybhoy7 on November 23, 2009 2:48 PM

That is the one I linked to earlier.

It is mine and reflects guesswork on my part subsequently amended to take into account the views of fellow CQNrs who commented.

It is still open to discussion.

What I will say is that to raise the figure from the £27M shown to £33M quite a few wages will have to rise. I have no problem adjusting it upwards, the aim is to get as near the true figure as possible, not defend the figures already there, but if we are paying the sort of wages that would take the total up to £33m we are being done like kippers by players and their agents.

That football supporters as a whole are all to ready to leap into the smoke room is another matter of social lunacy.

Exiled bhoy

I recall some years ago on the morning of my brothers funeral, and he was my best friend as well as a brother, saying to my wife that I was stopping working every hour god sent, stopping getting worked up about Celtic, and couldn't care less if I never had a penny in the bank for the rest of my life.

I honestly felt that way at the time, but sadly, over time, I reverted to type. I guess that is a common experience for most people. You have a different perspective for a while, and slowly but surely, the old you returns

Bobbycfc
I heard this rumour at the weekend person who told ne got it from a relation of Daryl clovehoof, in this version TM has offered to resign 3 times most recently to take the boro post. Trust the person who told me but can't be having the story why would clovenhoof not run with the story, it's not like he has bothered about being proved wrong in the past.

Auldheid

thanks for that, it was passed to me in an email, hadnt saw the earlier post!

By barcabhoy on November 23, 2009 2:57 PM

See my reply to gerryboy above.

Even making Brown and Fortune on £25K pw only puts the total just over £27M.

But value for money is thre key. I asked earlier why not go for a wage bill like Dundee Utds with players of their quality but just a few more to give the cover required to maintain the consistency that makes the difference between real title challengers and the rest.

Not sure what Utd's bill is but I bet it would esaily allow us to cope with a drop in attendance to say 30,0000 or reduce prices to keep attendances up.

Makes business sense to me but who amongst the support would want that?

Luckybhoy at 12.57

I can't disagree with a lot of what you say, in particular the comments that "The current Celtic team appear to have no direction, inspiration or determination." and "they are collectively, in my opinion, demotivated, self-interested and passionless " .I think this applies to the management team as well as the team on the pitch, and that is the fault of the board.

On your managerial dream team, I'd have had Willie McStay in charge ahead of Tony in the summer, and he will be the next manager, as he's likely to be cheap and Celtic-minded, the new choice of our board. Neil Lennon didn't sort out the dressing room last year, when many of the same problems we have now had started. McDonald hasn't stopped scowling at Samaras since he signed for us. I actually think in a good side, with supportive team mates, Samaras could be a good player, he won a lot of headers yesterday, he always looks for the ball and he tries to pick a pass rather than hoof it. He will go to the World Cup with his country. McDonald's physical conditioning for want of a better expression is a disgrace, he might be watching the World Cup on TV. Steven Fletcher is more than holding his own in the EPL. For a little bit more he could have been ours in January.

By gerrybhoy7 on November 23, 2009 3:05 PM

Ah the power of the internet to inform and misinform all in the one go. I must add a qualifying note to the sheet to explain its genesis and subsequent provenance.

Mort 2:53

Good post but I must say no chance to get Slaven Bilic.
He has contract until 2012. Can you imagine before signing that one his wages were 40 000 Euro per year? That was his biggest wish to be Croatia coach.He did not want more money for that job.I don't know what wages guarantees him new contract he signed after last Euro Championship. I guess it'smuch,much more than 40 000 Euros per year.
He is true hero in Croatia. Last month people voted him "Best charity man in Croatia 2009"

mmitch

thatstory has been on celticminded for ages..how can you offer to resign 3 times? if you dont want to be there then just leave ffs

Caldwells_Heid

Hiddink is in a similar boat and more experienced and possibly a better short term fix, same goes for Trappatoni, however I was thinking more long term with Bilic.

Zybszek

Thanks for that information. Is it €40,000 per year or per week as if it's per year it's very little for a top class coach. Perhaps he might be interested in doing both the Celtic job and the Croatia job on a part-time basis. We could employ someone in a general manager style role (David Hay, Billy McNeill - not sure how effective that is) to deal with signings (once Bilic has the player scouted) and other day to day things when Bilic is with Croatia.

Mort

barry113 - You can't offer to resign 3 times. I'd suggest that he hasn't.

Wigan players to refund the match tickets of the fans at White Hart Lane. 'We were embarassed' said captain Mario Melchiot.

MMitch: Broadfoot probably didn't run with the story, as he is not a journalist, but the communications director at the SFA.

ExiledBhoy: Condolences to you, and thoughts with the family of your colleague.

cardiffbhoy on November 23, 2009 3:12 PM

Fair points made.

On the management side, I take your point about Lennon, but I would give him a chance anyway. I would definitely bring in Willie McStay with, as mentioned, Davie Hay as a mentor/General Manager type figure. Let's face it the funds are not going to be in place to bring a Bilic/Trappatoni/Hiddink.

(why hasn't Davie Hay been touted for the Scotland job?)

Samaras for me, is an enigma. He is good in the air and has a lovely touch but he cannot play in the penalty box where we need our strikers to be. If that is the case do we play him wide at the expense of Aiden/Shaun/Paddy/Niall? The problem, in my opinion is that Tony Mowbray doesn't seem to know which formation he wants to deploy from week to week. The only striker we have who can score goals is Skippy, a petulant wee so and so who is not half as good as he thinks he is - does this ring a bell with any other players at Celtic Park at the moment?

Can't understand why we didn't go for Co Adriaanse in the summer.

He was available in the summer, now he's a TV pundit and said to be wanted by Qatar, which would be a waste of his talents but no doubt lucrative.

He got provincial club Willum II Tilburg into the Champions League, reached UEFA Cup semi's with AZ Alkmaar, was sacked after a brief spell at Ajax - don't know the background to that - won league and Cup double with Porto, won Austrian league with Salzburg.

Not a bad CV compared with our Tony's.

Getting a bit sick of hearing the doom and gloomers bang on about how bad the current squad of players are and how the managers not up to it!

For years we've been saying our leagues not competetive enough and holding us back from putting in the big performance for european games.

Winning the league out of sight by 10, 20 points in recent times has helped that view but now we are moaning that as it becomes more competitive by actually losing games (how is that possible!)people don't renew season tickets and dont even bother to go to home matches when they have one!

We're Celtic supporters, faithful through and through! Remember that song? Its been that long since I heard that or any decent singing at Celtic Park it hurts me!

Remember the dark days of the late 80's early 90's? Want to go back to that?

Celtic fans are the best in the world, No glory hunters allowed.

The team and the manager need us more now than ever.

See you at the St Mirren game

Keep the faith

Twists n turns

Thanks for the roll and susage offer, it wasn't required until Sunday.

I even managed to get a mention of Celtic into this - sadly, it wasn't great, but I think we all felt the same after Tannadice

Infamy is a hard act to follow

luckybhoy on November 23, 2009 3:27 PM and others

Unless Celtic get a manager of the type of stature that commands the respect of the players we will be stuck in this cycle.

We made the mistake of appointing Mowbray, a man who although a gentleman, has done nothing of note as either a player or a manager. Lennon/Levein/Yogi Hughes/Willie McStay would see us stay in this inescapable cycle of mediocrity and ultimately failure.

It is not beyond us to get a top class manager, what other team outside of the top 5 leagues can offer almost guarenteed Champins League perticipence given the right tools?

I said it before we appointed Mowbray and I'll throw the name in again, Roy Hodgeson. Would command respect and IMO would like a craic at the CL given there is little or no chance of Fulham ever getting there.

Of course getting a respected manager will take some cash. over to Desmond and (hopefully) Denis O'Brien if the board could persuade him to make a contribution.

We are Celtic, we can and must do better than the Leveins and Lennons of this world. Not good enough for Celtic, very much doubt they ever will be.

DD

By barcabhoy on November 23, 2009 2:57 PM

If you are going to compare wages to the Seville era then you have to uprate what it would cost to hold on to Larson, Sutton, Lennon, Lambert, Thomson, Mjalby, Balde, Hartson, Thomson, Petrov, ValJaeren (sp) NOW based on what they would get in the EPL.

Use what Petrov gets pw as the median (£40K, £50K, £60K ?)and go from there.

I reckon a pool of just 15 of the Seville players would cost £31M without bonuses or NI and that has Petrov on £40K a week.

What we should do of course is reduce the squad size and pay around half a dozen the big money to attract quality and experience and keep the rest on existing rates. If they do not want to play under that policy they can p off.

The problem is guys who do not deliver expect to get the same as those who do just because they are of a standrad that entitles them not to look like complete mugs when they compete.

Its like paying Tina Turner £100M for a series of gigs and a support act that no one has heard of £80M when they only merit a tenner. (being harsh there I'll admit but you take my point). Brian Quin expressed it perfectly when he said

“I haven’t looked at it (Financial Fair Play) in great detail yet but I suspect that there are countries that are nowhere near as closely regulated as SFA clubs are,” Quinn told The Herald last night. “If there are clubs who are not subject to these kind of rules then they may be paying exorbitant fees and excessive salaries. It raises what I call the water table. It all trickles down. The top two clubs in Scotland and the top clubs in England are all competing in a Europe-wide pool of available players. So clubs can end up spending more than they can afford. This is why Platini hopes it will all percolate down.”

Auldheid

unless i have missed it , your spreadsheet only takes into account basic salaries and a 10% bonus. I suspect many many contracts have trigger points which include, appearances, length of service, and success which would result in more than a 10 % overall bonus rate

I am not trying to disparage your work, all credit to you for taking the time to put it together, but i think it's too difficult to accurately estimate an individual wage.

Take Naylor for example....when we signed him, he was a rated as being a good player with premiership experience. His contract at Wolves would have reflected his status as a premier player. If we are only paying him £8k a week i might have to rethink some of my criticism of PL. I suspect though that he will be on closer to £15k . Equally Fox was voted as the best left back in the championship last year by both players and writers. I doubt we would have got him for £10k a week, much more likely to be above £15k.....

ask 10 celtic supporters for an opinion on who is earning what, and you will get 10 differrent opinions...and none of them might be correct

donegaldanny on November 23, 2009 3:33 PM

Typed in a hurry, spelling woeful! :-)

DD

Mort

It "WAS" not "is" 40 000 Euros per year.He was offered new contract after Austria/Swiss 2008.
I don't know if true information hacks through my sclerosis?Is it 800 000 Euros per year now.
This what you say,I mean Croatia + Celtic in the same time doesn't work. We had it in Poland not long time ago.Nightmare. Don Leo worked for Poland and for the Dutch club. A.H. he is.
.............................

How people know Mowbray has resigned two weeks ago?

"God save donald duck, vaudeville and variety
We are the desperate dan appreciation society
God save strawberry jam and all the different varieties"

Quick question, why would Mark Venus tell another SPL manager that the only player of quality we have is Aiden, and that he has already told him he would be better going to England and earning good money?

Bhoydell - he wouldn't. Next!

By donegaldanny on November 23, 2009 3:33 PM

The Leveins of this world ARE our level. Guys used to operating in a hostile environment where every penny spent has to count and every penny well spent is appreciated.

You might not like it and might not have the patience as global changes work their way through to change our operating constraints but that is where Celtic are.

Not only can we not afford the MONs or Redknaps they would be useless in the relative poverty environment they would have to work in. It is guys like Levein and Hughes who can spot a budget player and get the best out of them that we need and yet we scorn their likes.

Auldheid on November 23, 2009 3:44 PM

Ok say for example we got Levein in, you can be guaranteed our first signing would be a Gary Kenneth or a Sandaza. Is that going to improve us or keep us in the cycle we're in? Of course no one can say for certain but I know what I'd put my cash on.

I'm sorry I just don't believe that thats our level. Its a shame the board have succeeded in lowering the expectations of the fans to suit there current failing strategy.

DD

Auldheid - it's a bit like when you manage eg Stirling Albion in football manager. When you're after a striker you don't even consider getting a player with all his stats in double figures, you just want a guy with a finishing of 20.

Weeminger He did ..............

Next

Mort @2.53pm

I couldnt agree more,yesterday was the nail in Tony's coffin,we could bring in allsorts of players in January and we'd still struggle,the guy just doesnt have what it takes to be Celtic manager,somebody who should be good enough to make bad players punch above their weight instead of the opposite until he gets the chance to strengthen,the more I think about using the players he has as an excuse the more I want him out,the guy is fighting to be average and thats not Celtic.

As for Skippy,Samaras,Caldwell,Loovens,McManus,Fox,Naylor,Fortune and N'Guemo for starters Id tae bash doon Kerrydale St asap.

Bhoydell - Which manager?

Zybszek

Cheers again. Not convinced about joint managers either but if it's the only way to get him and he really wants to stay as Croatia manager, we could try it for a while.

Mort

By barcabhoy on November 23, 2009 3:34 PM

No problem, I take your comments in the spirit they are offered.

Some of those figures might be more reflective of what we think the players are worth rather than what we think they might have negotiated, but you still have to uprate quite a few to get near £33M. I think £30M is a nice round figure to settle on for settling arguments sake. My main aim was to dispel the idea that the £38.9M wage bill was on first team squad wages, the context under which it was most often quoted as a rod to beat the manager with.

The total includes NI as well as bonuses btw.

any posters live in yoker area ? and do you know what time the asia takeaway opens ? thanks

drunkonamondayafternooncsc

Interesting rumour re: BTM and offering his resignation.

Personally, don't give it much credence myself (he's never struck me as a quitter). However, he has not looked like a man happy in his work for some time now...

Etims rumour mill hinted that BTM offered his resignation just after transfer window shut.

He doesn't look happy.
Players don't look happy.

Lets face it would anyone be surprised if the rumours were true.

Club is rotten from top to bottom just now by the looks of it.

DD

By donegaldanny on November 23, 2009 3:48 PM

Celtic are doing their best to survive NOT improve.

Unlike us supporters, those charged with the responsibility for running Celtic have to face the harsh economic and geographic constraints that you appear not to recognise exist.

Had you their responsibility you might change your view.

In that harsh climate guys who can get the best from what they can afford are exactly the kind of manager we need at present.

In that respect had Levein got the job in the summer I would have been happy with that but those whose expactation levels are unrealisticaly higher would not.

It is not that the Board have downsized expectations it is that they have failed to manage expectations for fear that by telling it how it is, supporters would leave in droves.

Instead they kept quiet and supporters are leaving anyway (but maybe not quite in droves more dribs and drabs).

I would have spelled out the future more clearly, what their policies are for facing it and asked the support (credit crunch notwithstanding) to live up to their name and support the club.

Auldheid,

If we use your £30 million as the benchmark, the interesting thing is how would we spend that. If you are correct and we use £4 million of that for management and coaches, including bonus, then we have £26 million on players...

using your numbers for the youth and development players at a total of £1 million, that leaves £25 million for a first team squad....my preference would be to have a pool of 20 at an average of £1 million each and add the £5 million unspent to the youth and development budget...

i have no idea whether chris mccart and stevie frail are the best at what they do, but if they are not i would pay for the very best at developing youth talent.....i would also be inclined to have a group of 8 or 9 17-19 year olds who we were prepared to pay £8 k per week to....i would hope that this get us a very high quality of young player, who would be able to step into the first team and not look out of place

to move to this strategy, we really need to start pruning the first team squad aggressively .....

donegaldanny

Where do you think Celtic will get the funding from to pursue your high spending strategy in the current climate, and how can it be sustained ?

You talk of a 'failed strategy'. At risk of being really pedantic I think there has been a 'failure to have any strategy' which is a key contributor to the current predicament.

There are all the external factors such as the macro economy etc but at the heart of it all there has been no focus on what was needed to grow the 'enterprise' and as such whe the economics and market dynamics have tured against the club we have tens of thousands of 'malcontents' such as yourself whose expectations are way beyond the commercials of the business. That is the BIG issue.

Guy's,

We laughed at Rangers when they got rid of Le Guen, majority thought he should have been given time and that the trouble makers should have went before him. If TM goes then it's saty of execution for the guys who think they are bigger than our football club.

TM will hold his his hands up and said he has made mistakes on footballing decisions, even the greatest managers make mistakes.
What he can't be accused of is the medocrity and claibre of player he inherited. We have known from GS second season whe we struggled to cross the finish line until Naka free kick, that the team was not good enough in quality. The seeds of what is happening now were sowed a long time ago and players who should never had graced the famous jersey have. Is it his fault that another manager seemed to think that it would take 15 million to replace Caldwell and McManus when in fact Erlend Hanstveit a Norwegian internationlist was available for free and we were informed he was no better than Naylor and the above mentioned?

Celtic and only Celtic have put us in this position we find ourselves in. I'm sure any football manager will have a list of targets, if the men tasked with getting them can't, then that aint managers fault.

If he asked for a striker and centre halve or left back and one is not obtained because we can't secure targets then the blame should be assigned somewhere else.

January is a big month not only for TM but for PL, if he doesn't get what the manager wants, the there will be trouble big time. We get told that they see players and things we see and know the troubles. Time to put up or shut up.

Burnley'78 on November 23, 2009 4:15 PM

Depends how you define 'high spending'. I'm not advocating 7,8 or 9m pound players. But a little investment in a decent manager plus for once trying to utilise the bosman market combined by NOT buying players from England would help don't you think?

Lets face it the list of potential managers we had was aiming terribly low wasn't it?

DD

Barcabhoy

Always enjoy your comments and quite like your business strategy. When you consider the wage numbers for our first team squad, your strategy seems sound to me.

If youth development is truly a priority then more investment must be made on this front. Like you, I feel that many of the current squad are over paid for their contribution and only a large scale gardening exercise will make things rosy again.

Given that there were only 30,000 through the gate at Ibrox on Saturday, and they are top of the league and champions then I fear for the realistic numbers attending CP for much of the balance of year.

Rightly or wrongly the association with Celtic and Rangers is the closest thing many have with success in their lives in our wee country, and thus I would reckon that we will be as hard hit as Rangers are for the poor fare offered over the next few weeks.

Very prudent but creative spending strategies will surely be the only way forward for Celtic as well as their even more constrained rivals for the immediate future.

We have a squad with no confidence, it has been derided by a manager making scapegoats, this is incompetence.

If the rest of the league didnt know it already big tony has told them all we go running scared of big physical teams paying balls in the box. This is incompetence you do not broadcast this.
He is not fit for the job.
go now

WGS

I agree, January is a pivotal month for the football club and it is the time when we will see just what we are supporting.

I think that month will either prompt a groundswell of support or a huge swathe of our "customer base" to say no more.

Peter Lawwell has a massive task in getting the players that the manager wants, but also to ship out the players who are obviously disrupting the team for the maximum possible return.

We have seven SPL games left until the January transfer window opens which is a possible 21 points.Hearts away looks the trickiest away game so lets accept a draw for that one,Motherwell and Killie being the other two we must win. We should expect to win our four home games including, no I mean especially against the huns.The other three being St Mirren Aberdeen & Hamilton .I would say if we do not pick up 19 points big Tony should not and could not be trusted with any transfer money.I think if we dont go on a winning run he,ll jack it in anyway

The money that's been spent has not been spent wisely; not much Rapport-Prix-Qualite in the current squad.

We have bought a lot of munchkins in bulk [and I don't just mean in stature] and are again handing the initiative to Nedward.

WGS on November 23, 2009 4:21 PM

January is a big month not only for TM but for PL, if he doesn't get what the manager wants, the there will be trouble big time. We get told that they see players and things we see and know the troubles. Time to put up or shut up."

Agreed. PL should be in last chance saloon....he cannot keep failing to deliver the players we need...he is in overall control...he needs to ensure we have a joined up process...the scouts need to be looking at players within our budget, the manager needs to provide targets who will be prepared to play for us, and the CEO needs to get deals done both incoming and outgoing, but only with the managers blessing on who comes and goes

Somebody said that the Board "are doing their best to survive NOT improve."

However, if that is the case they're not doing a very good job of that. A few examples

1. Pissing on and treating with contempt their biggest source of revenue.

2. Failing to see that a small investment last January, would have seen a £15m windfall guaranteed this year.

3. Playing Poker with Dodgy Dave and getting wupped.

4. Offering a new contract to Scott McDonald with far greater wages, when he had FOUR year still to run on his current deal. This only served to make him spend more in his family restaurant and make him less hungry for the thing we need him to do on the pitch.

5. Allowing players to run down their contracts/not invoking contracts options (we could have made Naka stay another year or got compo if he signed for another club) but fail to do so repeatedly.

As I said, not a very good job.

Burnley '78@4.25 - you musn't compare us with them.

I got shouted at when I pointed out that their CL gates were down by almost exactly the same % as our EL gates (compared to a sell-out), and for me this suggested that falling attendances were being affected more by lack of cash, than some kind of 'stay away' anti-board feeling.

donegaldanny on November 23, 2009 4:07 PM
"Club is rotten from top to bottom just now by the looks of it."

I know you are hurting, Danny. We all are but that kind of wild exaggeration only exacerbates whatever problems we may have.
We bought a good player in Danny Fox. The Media hardly mentioned his early, good performances but jumped on any mistakes. Two months later, many are now decrying his performances, this does nothing for Danny`s confidence and the result is self-fulfilling prophecy.
Rangers, through necessity, bring in Danny Wilson. The Media immediately begin to describe him as being comparable with John Terry and David Narey. Result, his mistakes are overlooked, their fans support him and he is allowed to develop.
Will we ever learn that the Media always sets our players up to be criticised and we fall for it every time and do their job for them. This is then followed by that same Media being able to report, accurately now, that the Celtic fans are disgruntled with the Manager, the defence, the midfield, the attack, the stewards and the songs sung at away matches.As I say, will we ever learn?

Been said by many of you before but can't help harking back to it, WTF was TM thinking publicly slating players and revelling in his player turnover stats at WBA, that more than anything else has contributed most to the lack of commitment a number of players are showing. I do agree however that TM does not strike me as a quitter another reason the resignation offers seem unlikely.

A general football point.

Apathy is killing the game in this country.

Fans here now have unprecedented access to the bigger, more entertaining leagues in Spain and England. Many are choosing to invest their hard earned cash in watching those rather than our own teams who are not worth the exorbitant sums we're being asked to pay for them.

Celtic are no strangers to fan backlash. What we're seeing now, however, isn't the raw passionate anger of before. It is as many people have already stated. A cold feeling of apathy and disenchantment. The views of the support at large have become disenfranchised from the boardroom in a complete U-turn from Fergus McCann's vision of a fan run club with a board which would be accountable to the support.

It is clear that this current board know how to run a company but not a football team.

Scottish Football is dying and we're in danger of becoming footballing nobodies with a great history rather than a good, competitive, entertaining team who the supporters can believe in.

WGS

Erlend Hanstveit was on trial where he was undoubately judged in terms of his ability and performances against those he would have replaced in the team. I'd find it hard to believe that he wasn't signed for any reason other than he wasn't as good as those he was competing for a place in the team against.

Mort

Auldheid

So much of what you say, especially in the financial arena is rational.

BUT the last point re

Unlike us supporters, those charged with the responsibility for running Celtic have to face the harsh economic and geographic constraints that you appear not to recognise exist.

So you think that supporters are blind to the economy and that the fact that thousands upon thousands are facing harsh realities is a mere figment.

Let's be clear here, the only reason that Celtic have any dosh is because of the fans; fans who make enormous sacrifices to watch THEIR team. We are well aware of the straightened times in which we live and we despair at a club who have quite rightly restored a solid economic foundation but have sadly ignored the opportunities that the foundation has given us.

As for managing expectations, well football is escapism, it is dreams, it is waking up from an afternoon at CP where maybe the hard facts of the world have disappeared for a couple of hours.

Don't manage my expectations, manage my team and recognise all of our ownership. Then win, lose or draw I'll be there in body or spirit and continue to buy my season ticket irrespective of where I am in the world. I supported during the bad times as well as good since the end of the fifties. I won't give up now but fail to fuel my dreams or treat me as if I don't know what is going on in the real world, then I will react.

Having said that, I have calmed down from a disastrous start to a season that held so much promise.

I haven't changed my opinions one iota, but I'll now shut up till the end of the season.

AND I really mean it when I say 'prove me wrong Tony, Dermot, Peter et al', just don't treat me like an idiot. (instances where this has happened, justifiably or otherwise, are available as an everlasting strip (remember those) on a roll of Delsey.

Hail hail

Estadio

FREE THE MADRID 1!! 29 Years old on a Bosman

Solvi Ottenson available for a peanuts and would enhance our defence greatly.

Mathias Jorgensen we bit dearer but would be worth the money.

Burnley 78 at 4.25
30,000? Where ddthat igure come from? The one I saw had 45.000 +

Unless there is a big sale.

There will be no big spend in Jan.

We have spent £10 million on the TM era already.

I would not give him another penny.

Cut our losses and performance manage his resignation if performances do not improve very quickly.

When a Celtic manager is appointed there should be pre agreed targets in his contract.

Minimum standards of performance which are points driven.

If they are not reached then we should be able to dismiss the manager without the need for compensation.
I bet that that hasn't been done when he was recruited.

I have worked under such pressures all my life.

I pay the best salaries and bonuses in my business,but all my staff know clearly what they must achieve,and what is not acceptable.

In fairness i provide them with the best supporting tools in the business.

They have no excuses.

Tony needs to shape up or ship out.

The current results are below an acceptable standard.

Improvement is needed quickly.

WGS

Freeing the Madrid 1 again!? After all these years I'd have thought we'd have managed to finish the tunnel by now. ;^)

WGS

Not disagreeing with your view - especially when the rot set in - but where does TM's Fortune and to a certain extent N'Guemo factor in to our malaise?

Managers who blame their players are defining themselves there and then.

I remember when Martin O'Neill started to set about Advocaat's Rangers and his team were losing their way - he started coming out and telling the press the players were the problem.

That teflon mentality when the going gets tough is usually the first sign for a taxi being phoned in my opinion.

Martin O'Neill set about his players in the dressing room - never on air. He also turned a defeat at the Megiddo into a moral victory in one fist clenched moment - that's managerial nous. That's comradeship too. That's one of us.

We seem to be lacking that so much just now.

U

Tiny Tim

10 million ? expand mate.

Since we played and beat Rangers 1-0 on the 27-12-08 to go 7 points clear we have played 31 league games winning only 16 which I find disturbing.With only 4 defeats but 11 draws we appear to have lost the ability to just win games yesterdays being a case in point.Tony Mowbray would have bought himself time by just winning games and then making his changes.He may not get time if he and his staff go the way they are at present.

JungleJim

I agree with you completely in that Danny Fox is a good footballer who has gone off the boil lately.

But please - less of this media inspired thing. These boards are full of criticism of Celtic footballers. Not media led - IMHO - of ourse

donegaldanny

I agree the 'manager candidate list' aimed at was not high level, nor was it imaginative either.

I do think it was about the level we could realistically attract given the market we now have to opperate within and the commercial constraints which we will have to deal with. I also think any job which has a 50/50 chance of you being deemed a failure in year one, and being subjected to abuse from your own support even if you are winning is never likely to appeal as a career move for too many.

I share your frustration that we are too one dimensional (Lazy ?) in our transfer dealings. Although the limitations on Scotland vs Portugal / Holland / Belgium (work permits etc) does limit us somewhat.

I actually do believe (on good authority, unlike the BTM resigning garbage) that we have 3 very promising and more imaginative player signing options under consideration for January, as well as the korean.

WGS i presume that also accounts for the £2m or so it took to get him in first place

Ulysses,

N'Guemo i happen rate. I think when he plays with an intelligent footballer like Crosas or someone like Donati like the start of the season he's tidy player. A tigerish player and in all honesty he can make vital interceptions and his timing of tackles remind me of Agathe sometimes. Agathe was one of the best players i ever seen that could time a tackle and win the ball.

Fortune the jury is still out and i agree. However, what i would like Paul67 to do is clear up this mystery 3.8 million fee.
The fee was nowhere near that. I'm sure it was 1.5 million up front and the rest based on certain conditions.

Danny Fox i happen to think could be a great player if deployed as a left midfielder. I don't think he is a left back. There is something in Fox i like. But i think his confidence has taken a real dent since he joioned up with that defence of ours. You need to a thick skin when playing for us at the best of times, but just now wuth that defence you need a bullet proof vest.

Andreas Hinkel for me has been our best player this season. We are getting to see the real Hinkel and what a player he is. If we could just find two centre halves then i think the right back berth is sorted.

If Hinkel is allowed to leave then i'll lose the plot. I think either him or Crosas should be given the captaincy or one of the new centre halves.

Young Crosas i think will become a player for us as well. I actually think after watching this guy that he will end up going into management. Watch how he dictates and tells players what they should be doing on the park. For me it's a breath of fresh air seeing someone taking responsibility like that at such a young age. Has intelligence about him and we should be developing this talent further in my opinion.

It makes no difference what system you use defensively if the players do not carry out the very basics of defending properly.

There is no excuse for an attacker being allowed a free header from six yards in a crowded penalty box.

Do I sound like Alan Hansen - shocking defending?

WGS

I think the Metzelder ship has long sailed. Maybe when it was first mooted if he hadn't been injured but he hasn't played much this season or last and IMO would be on big wages and possibly won't add much to the team.

Your other suggestions are much more likely and what we need. Why not get both in, couldn't do any worse than the present incumbents.

Mort

Lurgan53

We have refined the art of paranoia to seeing shadows where there are none. I think sometimes that is a good thing as well as puzzling.

My most recent experience myself was in South Africa where for the best part of two months the raincloud followed me around like a balloon tied to my trousers.

The locals informed me that no such weather had been experienced for nigh on 52 years. Namibia and Botswana have offered ma a position of Rain czar, and I got a seriously terrible feeling that I had displeased God. Then as I arrive in Oz, the temperatures soar to what is only usually found in the centre of the sahara, lulling me into a false sense of smugness. Celtic then get humped!

I prefer the rain and I have apologised to God for whatever I had done to incur his wrath.

It's my fault, no-one elses.

Sorry lads; now that's paranoia.

Hail hail

Estadio (who can't sleep for the shame of it all)

What is concerning me is that we all know we need squad clean out and new recruits, the board/TM also know (roughly) how much they have for a budget each year, but to me it seems what is missing are effective scouts in these "value markets" we hear about. It is one way in which we could supplement the squad without going wild with the funds, perhaps uncover a star who we move on for a profit and free up funds for established talent.

To me our scouting system needs an overhaul and sharpish.

Burnley78

Your posts from yesterday and today are on the button.

Our board has proved that it can manage well in a Bull market.

They now need to prove that they can grow the business in a shrinking market.

Our recruitment is what is letting us down.

The recruitment of the recruiters has failed.

The most important job within the football side of the business is the manager.Then the chief scout's.

Why are we still fishing in the over expensive market of English football?

There are better managers and players out there than we have attracted.

The recruitment is wrong.

By WGS on November 23, 2009 4:51 PM

Fortune was not £3.8m. I was told that it was £1.5m with add-ons. The same person also told me that the compensation package for Team Mowbray was not nearly as much as £2m and that Danny Fox cost £1.4m. Net spend in the summer, taking into account large wage earners moving on and sale of Donati, was around zero.

Lurgan 53 4.47

Do you agree that our support is not being as supportive of our players as it traditionally has been? Do you further agree that the Media is even more supportive of Rangers (and more critical of us) in their desperate situation? Finally, if both scenarios are accurate, do you not feel that a fairly large number of our support IS influenced by the Media?
Of course, this is IMO but I studied the Media in detail as part of a course once and its inflence cannot be overstated.
My point overall, however, is that we should all try hard to be as positive as possible as regards our Club.

WGS @ 4.51

Excellent post, Agathe was very underrated fox definitely playing with a lack of confidence!

One thing though Crosas as captain mate!!!!!!!!

Going to places like swinecastle and ibrox u need a captain who will be physically imposing and someone who will command respect, someone who players look to when the going gets tough!!

Crosas aint that player in my opinion!!

Hail Hail

Roccobhoy

Ottokaiser 4.55pm

Great minds thinks a like!

Or is it a case of fools seldom differ?

FREE THE NEW MEXICO 1!

JungleJim

30,000 were through the gate at kick off....it may have got to 32,000 or so max....

Just as we rarely have crowds below 55,000 when we all know there are only 45,000 or so present Rangers are the same. The published crowd includes season tickets even if these folks do not attend.

Next week my 3 might not be used for the St Mirren game as kids have asked me to take them to Scotland v Argentina Rugby......it is hard to argue with them about which event might be more entertaining ! Even though it will cost me about £100 !!!

Paul
I can't say that I fully understand what zonal marking is about but your explanation seems as plausible as any other.

But did you notice the United players' aggression and determination to get to the ball at both corners. Did our defenders match that? I don't think so.

At the other end the much maligned Fox put in several quality corners but our big men lacked the conviction and the will to get to them.

When was the last time one of our defenders scored from a set piece? I reckon it was O'Dea in the League Cup Final last March.

Mowbray trying to make a return to the hugely unsuccessful zonal marking system that was deemed a significant cause of Strachan’s defensive woes only goes to bolster my opinion that he’s out of his depth in the job.

Next we’ll have Caldwell back in midfield and Barry Robson playing left-back.

Tiny Tim 4.39 pm if you are paying the best salaries,any chance of a job?

Barry Robson quoted in Evening Times :
"There are still a lot of positive things happening at the club under the new manager. The boys are all happy and we will keep going and try to win our next game.

"The manager and the team should be judged at the end of the season and not after one or two results."

Questions Arising
1. What are these positive things?
2. Why are the boys happy with such a bad start to the season?
3. Have you not noticed that we are well beyond one or two results?
4. Do you think the happy boys and the manager will still be there to be judged at the end of the season?

Celtic are in the top 20 in the world when it comes to Turn Over.

Now all the part time accountants will tell you that turnover is a misnomer if your operating costs are high etc. and that turnover in itself not mean much. When you mention bang for buck however they go exceptionally quiet.

So a club that is permanently in the top 20 for turnover in the WORLD ... getting an SPL calibre manager is where we are at right now ????

The Board apologists have indeed taken over the CQN asylum.

HAil Hail

Pablomio,

There was only one reason why we played Caldwell in the midfield and it still has not been addressed...

We have a team of complete wimps. To try and stop us being intimidated he put 3 central defenders on the park

Mowbray failed in his one duty which was simply to stop other teams physically beating us.

None of his signings are hard enough.

Basically, it's pointless playing fancy football when you don't have a solid foundation to do it on.

B

Awe_Naw

None quieter than NeilR who reckoned in accountants speak that season tickets
wouldn't really be down.

Maybe he went back to lurking.

HH

Martin47

Caldwell a fortnight ago?

TinyTim - on the money! Effective scouting could save and make us a fortune in the coming years, and it seems to have been neglected.

As much as I think the board have done a sterling job to date. The business needs to grow further now in what is a fairly bleak climate, but are the current guys on the board up to the job?

Why is it that no one believes that Celtic paid £3.8m for Fortuné. I have read that figure in a number of places but for my own peace of mind I'd like to see links to where it is said he cost £1.5m and add ons.

Mort

If the rumours are true about McDonald and Wigan i would be tempted to ask for the 3 million plus Erik Edman (experienced left back). Would like us to go for Brandan of Unirea though.

Feck it, if the present scouts are that bad i'm prepared to give a shot, can't be any fecking worse. I'll bring you bhoys from CQN on board. Dobbo, Sutty, Celtic Sep, Estadio, Tiny Tim, Mort, anybody up for it? :)

WGS

No way Edman. Watch the Spurs game highlights from yesterday. He was probably at fault with six of the nine!

Bloke109,

I never seen any football yesterday. I liked Edman a few years ago just though i would add it in on the post. Don't know how he is doing now as i though Figueroa had that berth sorted.

Bloke_109

six from nine - kinda rules him out;-)

WGS

I'd take you up on the offer. It's easy to sit at a computer and come up with names, the difficult thing would be to persuade Peter, oops I mean Tony that he should sign them.

Do we get travel expenses to go see the players as I wouldn't feel right suggesting them from Youtube footage, I'll go to Croatia first.

Mort

The one problem with zonal marking, aside from the fact that it doesn't work, is it makes it harder to see who's made the mistake.

Man to Man is and always will be the way to go.

gsu

WGS

They wouldn't let me in the scouts because I wouldn't offer allegiance tae lizzie!

Also, pertaining to nothing, when someone fingered me for being drunk and incapable (ok the polis found me under a bench in Coatbridge's espieside- but how did they know to look there?) my uncle took me out for a drink the night before I appeared before the police court and told to that I should refuse to recognise the jurisdiction of the court!

Fortunately I sobered up enough to prevent a long sojourn in the Kesh!

Hail hail

Estadio

WGS - I'm not so sure about Edman after yesterday's performance v Spurs (although he was just back from injury).

WGS on November 23, 2009 5:08 PM,

What's wrong with Danny Bhoy?

gsu

I reckon the Russian captain Sergei Semak could come in and do a job for a season or so and help give guys like Scott Brown and Crosas progress technically.

Twistsnturns @ 10.28 :- Thanks for the info re abandoning games due to lack of players, it seems an odd one that there is no internationaly recognised rule.

CFC1888 :- I'm not sure but seem to recall reading (possibly on here) that at one time Celtic fans did sing Follow Follow. I have no idea what words were used in it, maybe some other poster would know.

Jungle jim

how supportive of the support do you have to be to be in support of the support? I support the support but in support of the supporters who are supporting the support I think that the support need more support to get the support of the support.

CelticSUPPORTERSclubCSC

Estadio

someone fingered me for being drunk and incapable

Well that's just not very nice.

Mort

che's1

you been buzzing the glue the day ?

fried chicken blackbean sauce and green peppers for t :)

Che's 1

I sup port and sometimes I sup porter and sometimes having done so I need support.

bourne

Just looked at the match report from the Spurs website, seriously it could have been seven or eight either involving Edman, or down his side :-) Further to our previous posts, Spurs played with a right winger (Lennon), supported by a tall right-back (Corluka) and played Krancjar in front of a mid 2 (Palacios and Huddlestone), and two up front. This is effectively what I have been advocating - a 4312.

Mort

Speak for yersel.

Any port in a storm!

Hail Hail

Estadio

Estadio

On advice pre courtroom appearance...

My mate and I - holidaying in Fife (St Andrew's) drunkenly decided to steal and then deliver papers to the streets on the way up to our caravan.

Long story short - the arresting officer calmy advised us to 'Plead guilty by letter, Ill have a word with the judge and get you both off with it - say you had too much to drink and were just in high spirits.' - superb, thanks for that officer.

4 weeks later - BAM! - £50 fine.

U

By Awe_Naw_No_Annoni_Oan_Anaw_Noo on November 23, 2009 5:01 PM

" So a club that is permanently in the top 20 for turnover in the WORLD ... getting an SPL calibre manager is where we are at right now ???? "

Considering we are playing in the SPL every week, a manager who knows the environment makes some sense.

More sense than risking a PLG situation if you ask me....

Ulysses

you fell for that old chestnut?????

Quality.

People seem to think here that that certain players aren't trying because they've been told they have no future at Celtic.
If that is so, then the way they are playing they won't have much of a future away from Celtic.

The man who should have been the mainstay of our defence Mr Bobo Balde has now played three times for his new 6th placed french club and he has scored one goal which is one more than his teammate striker Filip Sebo!!

U

£50!!!!

I got £2.00 wae time to pay.

Mind you, after the arrest (of which I was oblivious), I woke up to find that I was staring at a tiled ceiling. I worked out (from previous experience) that I was either in jail or a public toilet (no sniggering Mort)but since a sergeant brought me a roll'n sausage for breakfast I decided it wisn't a toilet.

They then gave me a lift to St Augustines for 11.00 o'clock mass and with siren blaring they turned into the forecourt.

There was my Mother and Father standing on the steps.

Dad pursed his lips and filed away a stern lecture. My Mum asked me who my new friends were!

Hail hail

Estadio

Che's 1

The naivete of youth.

Just be thankful I didn't retell that part about being accused of syphoning diesel from a boat!!

Ah happy days

U

Paul 67

Sorry but the current crop of centre backs are the worst collection in my memory apart from the Macari season.

This hasn't just crept up on us that they aren't good enough, this has been a problem for years.

I think GS kept McManus and Caldwell together for 6 transfer windows which used to drive me mad as neither are good enough.

Loovens has gone from a decent player to another who is physically bullied.

Up front we're not ant better.
Someone said it's like the Barnes era again.At least we played some decent football at times and Barnes team would murder this lot of over paid and over rated chancers.

I said this morning that TM may not be the man to lead us if we are going to give him little to improve in January. We might have to make do with a Smith type pragmatist who doesn't care about style.

Right

3.45 vam here and jet lag now wearing off

Keep the faith and aim high!

Hail hail

Estadio

Estadio

2 bundles of The Courier newspaper equated to 2 cases of theft at £25 a pop

A lang spoon right enough.

U

Auldheid,

so getting Tony Mowbary from WBA instead of Hibs was where we fell down ?????????????????

HAil Hail

Ulysses

as long as it wasn't a submarine : P

shes1

Sir Paul

Perfect Summary.. and Plausible to a fault.

Howevah....

"What Now.. Brown Cow?"

So Ah went and Dialed, the Boss.

And he told me, this..among other things.

"Celtic only need to sign ONE Type of Player,who has TWO Valuable Adjuncts,which are part and parcel of his Resume, at the January Sales."

And Ah queried

"Huh?"

"Yes, only One..Who is...

a DOMINANT, EXPERIENCED, CENTER HALF...with the accents, on, DOMINANT and EXPERIENCED."

and Ah said..

"Tell me More."

And he said.

"Everyone knows that a Team must have a Strong and Formidable Spine,which is composed of..

A Superlative Goal-Keeper and a DOMINANT CENTER BACK.

Celtic have the Former, but Do not have the Latter.

And, Until.. Celtic acquire the Latter, they shall never be
a Successful Team.

For..

Defense, is the Best Form of Attack.

Do I make myself Clear?"

and Ah said..

"Claro!"

Maks Sense tae me.

Kojo.

It's the strikeforce, stupid!

(Apologies, no inference to anyone here)

ZALUSKA - Not as comfortable on the ball as Artur, but did well and pulled off a couple of great saves. Nothing much he could have done about either goal. - QUITE GOOD.

HINKEL - Solid enough, but didn't put in the crosses that characterize his better performances. - PATCHY

CALDWELL - Looked to be having a decent game, but one moment's lapse in concentration was enough to undo what could have been a decent afternoon for him. POOR

LOOVENS - Broke up play well. Was being held at 2nd goal so I won't pin the blame on him. However, made quite a few mistakes in judgement. - NOT GOOD ENOUGH

FOX - On the plus side, he seems to be putting in some decent corners (just a pity no one gets a head onto them) and can defend well enough. Unfortunately, he is a proponent of the 'howk it up the park' theory of clearances and loses the ball more often than not. - NO VERY GOOD.

ROBSON - Set up to fail by an incompetent managerial team, at least one of whom must have thought, 'Hey! Let's put a direct player who can't kick with his right foot into wide right!', Robson still managed to eke out a decent performance, if only by virtue of dogged persistence, which paid off with Celtic's only goal (won and scored by Robson). - PASSABLE

CROSAS - Great play. Broke up their play, almost always finding his man with the pass. - EXCELLENT

N'GUEMO - Far and away Celtic's best player. Almost nothing bad to say about his performance. If he, Robson and Crosas keep this up, Celtic will have a solid, dependable central midfield (at least until January). - SUPERB

MCGEADY - Had a good first half, where his usual faults (ball/shot to no one/nowhere) were more than compensated for by some determined play and a couple of great passes. Just a pity Fortune and Mcdonald were on the end of them. Nullified in the 2nd half. DECENT

FORTUNE - Oh dear. I said before the game he was a worry, but that if he had a good game, we'd win. Well, he didn't, and we didn't. Not a striker. AWFUL

MCDONALD - I'm a Scott Mcdonald fan, as at his best he combines tenacious play with an instinct for goal, or at least provides one of these. Neither happened in this game. Sorry, Scott, but a limo is pulling up outside your house. Inside is the Bronze Cabbage of Shame! - UNSPEAKABLY BAD

SAMARAS - I think he won a free kick and hit a pass to Mcdonald who was offside. Everything else was terrible. Ball watching at 2nd goal (watch it in slo-mo - he's behiiiind you!!!) - ABYSMAL

MCGINN - Came on. Lost the ball. Caught offside. Fouled someone. - FORGETTABLE

Other thoughts - they could easily have had a penalty for N'Guemo's early challenge in the box.

The players have retreated into themselves and are playing for themselves. I'm sure many will be deperate to leave - not a happy looking bunch.

We need a striker. If a fraction of our chances had been converted, the mood and momentum of the game swings in our direction and we're on easy street. Yes, our defence was poor, but for me the blame lies squarely on the shoulders of our strikers yesterday.

I nominate Killen and Samaras to start next Saturday, for the sole reason that they are the only combination we haven't tried. We may as well!

Bloke

Missed match of the day 2 due being seek of Celtic.

Six from Nine was hilarious, especially when WGS is busy scouting him for us;-)

Progress is losing a winger but replacing him with left sided Old Guy, playing wide right

HH

CQN Naps table.

Scroll past if of no interest.

I was the only one who managed a winner this week with the 11/1 shot "Ask Jenny".

A few of the guys playing catch up were obviously trying for a big priced winner so no surprise that they drew a blank.

Twists n Turns +£25.00
Jimtim +£4.37
Che +£1.00
----------------------------

Raymac -£2.00
Wolfetonesbhoy -£8.60
Fleagle -£8.75
TTT -£9.00
PF AYR -£9.25
Captured -£9.50
Mackybhoy -£9.75
------------------------------
Chris 1888/Gourockbhoy/TTTT -£14.00

I think Jimtim and Mackybhoy may have fallen at an earlier fence as they have not chosen for several weeks. If you are unable to remount bhoys, let me know and I'll withdraw youfor this season.

Estadio.

Great post. I think you've every right to be paranoid!

JungleJim

I agree that our support - like every support - can be influenced by the media. My point is - that criticism of a Celtic footballer does not mean its a media led issue. Most times its warranted/ I'll give you an example . Last season Hugh Keevins was severely critical of JVOH. His scoring record was apalling. Yet I constantly read that it was a media conspiricy but those criticisms were reflected on these boards. The truth was that - his goal scoring record was apalling.

Stephen Mc Maus has come under severe criticism on CQN. Some of the criticism was personal. Yet it is only recently - towards the end of last season - that that criticism has been reflected in the media. While he was being pillioried on these boards the media did not see it that way. Indeed he was defended by Andy Walker, Derek Johnstone and Brittany. In many cases I read severe criticism of Celtic players on these boards - before I read them in the papers.

Hail Hail.

53

By TinyTim on November 23, 2009 4:55 PM

I think our wage structure might have something to do with who and how many we recruit.

It all depends on the underlying rationale. Is it designed not to have too big a gap between earners and so avoid disrupting team cohesiveness as a result? This forces the top pay down and player quality with it and leads to too many mediocre players.

Is it also designed to be risk averse after the experience of Gravesen?

An alternative might be to recognise that we needed at least say four £50k (?) a week players around which to build a spine, reduce the number of journeymen to pay for the higher wages and tell those journeymen we do hire that only real quality is reward by star wages. A pool of 17 with 4 on £50K and the rest on current pay would cost about the same as the current bill. That stil leaves 30 odd players on development squad wages for cover and might even mean they get a game.

Gives the journeymen an ambition to become a star and the support some quality to watch. We would stil have to avoid the Gravesens though.

weeminger on November 23, 2009 4:32 PM
Burnley '78@4.25 - you musn't compare us with them.

I got shouted at when I pointed out that their CL gates were down by almost exactly the same % as our EL gates (compared to a sell-out), and for me this suggested that falling attendances were being affected more by lack of cash, than some kind of 'stay away' anti-board feeling."

weeminger,

the only problem with this argument is that the rangers board is if anything even more unpopular than ours !!

Lurgan53

Some people here thought there was a conspiracy in the media to praise McManus and Caldwell so that Celtic would continue to play them!

The Ghirls beat the lady (!?) Huns 8:0 a few weeks ago. Bring them up to the main squad. At least they will give it an honest go.

ulysses mcghee

An old pal of mine - now sadly no longer with us - was up for the umpteenth time in front of an old and familiar judge. The judge - at a loss as what to do - for he had thus far used only suspended sentences - finally lost patience with him and pased down a 6 month sentence to be served in Crumlin Road.

My friend laughed it off and snapped.
"No problem your honour. I'll do that on my head!"

The judge replied. " In that case Mr ....... I pass an extra 6 months get you back on your feet again!"

Have to admit. We foud it uproariously funny.

PeteTheBeat

I thought some people would think that!!

Reverse psychology or what?

Auldheid

we need marquee players and if we have to go to £50k a week we should do so, within an overall budget that we can manage....supporters love the watch the best players...roy keane ensured every game at parkhead was a sellout when he signed....henrik and the signature tune every time he scored was a piece of theatre which enhanced the match day occasion

you can't put a value on watching great players....i got my ticket today for the Barca v Inter game tomorrow, when i heard that messi is a doubt it was a real deflater...i mean imagine going to watch a game with only xavi, iniesta, ibrahimovic, toure and henry (boo hiss) to look forward to watching

The scary thing for me is i just don't think our CEO gets it......as the film said "if you build it, they will come"

Auldheid

You have reminded me of the fact that PL used to say that we would have such star players within our budget.

The poor experience of Graveson has definately left us with scorch marks on our tongue.

It's not our lack of funds that is soley to blame ,it our wasting of them. ,that is hurting us now.

I want winners on the park.

Players with the appetite of Scott Brown ,but a bit more brains.

Auldheid

Hopefully you can work your way through my typos.

As always you make some very astute points.

I wish spomebody would ask the rangers manager the Bougherra question.

Probably too scared they will get the 'just pack it in' treatment.

barcabhoy

I thought selling Eto'o and paying around £30mill for Ibrahimovic was madness.

Eto'o was the better player in my eye's.

What is your view,and the general consensus of opinion in Barca?

By Kojo on November 23, 2009 5:56 PM

I once started up a amatuer team from scratch. We got humped in the first half of the first season but once I got a goalkeeper we started getting results, the odd draw and even a win.

Second season we consolidated, raising the level all over the team, which was not that hard.

But in season three I was lucky enough to persuade a wee CF from Castlemilk to join us. He was in your words "a brammer". Better than that he had three pals - a really good goalkeeper, an animal of a centre half who would kick yer granny's granny and a midfielder with a Rolls Royce engine.

I had a spine from back to front and a bonus in midfield. There were 3 divisons in the league, we went from 3rd to top in 2 seasons after that.

Funnily enough the CF who was displaced by the brammer became our player of the season at Left Back but you are absolutely right we MUST fix the spine.

Historicaly when Bobby Evans left we were lucky to have Bily McNeil but when Billy finished I recall we went a season or two without a CB of that stature. I think Paul Elliot was the next good un, then maybe Stubbs and then Bobo but the times in between were like now. The guys playing were OK but just not Celtic class.

I'm sure other auld heids can fill us in on those.

Can anyone tel lme how Fenerbache's gates have been since they started signing the likes of Roberto Carlos, etc?

They seem to have done well domestically and the big names sell tickets,i would have thought.

No response from the SFA regarding the procedures for video referral. Six weeks since Loovens' suspension now.

No referral to the video review panel for Andy Webster's punch to the back of Barry Robson's head.

What is the process and what do you have to do to be referred?

We may be very poor up front and even worse at the back, but that should not deviate us form our obligation to pursue a level playing field.

Tehy say taht seplilng is not ipmoratnt as lnog as you get the fsrit and lsat ltetres in the cerorct pcale.

I just spotted the Sky Sports header on News Now that "Brown hints at Hoops exit" and I thought "yes, cash in on the biggest underperformer at the club".

Then I read it and realised it was Mark Brown.

A wee bit like me hinting that it's unlikely I'll be playing for Milan next season.

Oh well. Still hopeful that someone may spend £8m on our 4th best central midfielder.

Paul67..... superb post

WGS 4.37

"Solvi Ottenson available for a peanuts and would enhance our defence greatly."

I know our defence is crap but how you can make these statements based on youtube clips amazes me. Unless you are watching regularly the games SønderjyskE FC of course.

UC

barcabhoyAuthor Profile Page on November 23, 2009 12:42 PM

its changed now, i send my laptop the the uk by dhl (paid for by sony) on the thursday afternoon.
on fri morn i got a text message saying sony had recieved my laptop. on friday tea time i got anutha text saying it was fixed and would be back to me on the monday. which it was. . .

seems they upped their game, pity celtic players cant seem to do the same.
it all looked so good in pre-season

hail hail!

By barcabhoy on November 23, 2009 6:17 PM

If you are an accountant you are bound to understand balancing books better than entertaining and when your reward system is dependent on the former rather than the latter then naturally you do what you are rewarded for. Ask the bwankers.

It is easy to set targets that are easily measurable, not so easy a soft target like entertainment value. What do you do? Give the fans a wee smile/sad face card to fill in as they leave?

But unfortuneatley fortuneatly, the lack of entertainment has fed through into what is measurable, the balance sheet, so it is more likely this January than ever before that something will be done to either address that issue or ensure that if we are not entertaining we are at least winning.

That should only be the start though, get a Kojo specified CB to make sure we win the title back but look at whose contracts are up, how many can we release or persuade to go elsewhere and change the wage structure policy. Smaller pool 3/4/5 stars and the back up guys who are still valuable but are ten a penny.

Where DD can play a role is not to bankroll the added wages but underwrite the risk of buying a Gravesen with maybe a cut of the proceeds from selling on a star player every season or so to compensate any underwriting called in. A fund could be created from transfer monies for such a purpose.

We have to start thinking differently as a club. The EPL aint gonna happen, we need a plan B.

EN

Late back three times, nothing to see here Timmy move along

HH

By Estadio Nacional on November 23, 2009 6:22 PM

EN why dont the Celtic Board ask the Bougherra question and pump in an offer?
obviously they wont accept it even in their dire straits (no musical link pleeeeez) but it would have folly folly in meltdown and might take just bring a smile to some of the wee faces on this blog in paticular.

Other thing is Bougherra has only been posted missing twice this season...... as for the chuckle brothers

U2_1888

Fell for that one as well, think they knew we would

HH

TinyTim at 4.39

spot on !
As a businessman, you'll be well aware of what the Board will be thinking - "this is a disaster. How can we best manage this situation?"

I'm not sure what the answer to that dilemma is. I anticipate a manager with some acid in his batteries will be able to ignite even the current team. I'm afraid that, despite the frailties of the present squad, I (unlike the author of the article here) do not view the team as the sole weak spot. They are merely putting into place the instructions given to them by Messrs Mowbray and Grant.

We are weak at the back, rudderless in the middle and the front lacks teeth. Even if you accept that these features were evident last season, why oh why did we think Tony Mowbray was the man to change this !?! These problems were exactly those which characterised WBA last season.

"Give me to the end of the season" - not a chance, we can't afford to...

WGS 4.37

"Solvi Ottenson available for a peanuts and would enhance our defence greatly."

How do you know how much he is available for?

If he is in fact "available for peanuts", why?

Why have no paid professional Scouts of other teams whose defence he would "enhance greatly" uncovered this fact?

SwanseaBhoy

Ahem ...

Che on November 23, 2009 6:49 PM

I can honestly say I have never been in meltdown in my life ...

Therealff.csc

Che

Im not sure we need another defender goes missing...

EN

If Celtic continue to rot under Mowbray and the bank sell Rangers best players in January coupled with a few injuries wouldn't it be wonderful to see Hibs or United come through and win this league and show the big two how rubbish they are.

The best thing the could happen would be
1. Hibs
2. United
3. Rubbish
4. More Rubbish

And if I were to suggest a bid for a Rankers defender it would be Papac ... much better bet all round.

Buggeraw comes across as possessing an inflated opinion of his own worth ...

FF

SwanseaBhoy

Celtic offered him a trial that was turned down by his club, he is the captain of a Danish team,named above, and has 4 international caps for Iceland, he is 25.

3 English Championship teams had shown an interest, Reading had an offer tuned down. they took O'Dea instead.

I suppose he could be OK but "enhance greatly" and WGS calls himself a scout ;_)

only kidding WGS

UC

My dear,dear,dear,dear,dear,dear,dear,dear,dear,dear,dear,dear,friend..Auldheid.

Pal, Ah jist knew ye wid agree with the Boss.

and..

Oan Reflection.. staunin in front the Mirror..

It suddenly struck me, that Ah hid bin swiping at Flies, while the Buzzards wur ripping me a new Tail!

Fur Ah hid ay thought..and fur at least the Past Three Seasons, that our Troubles awe evolved fae no hivin a Decent and reliable Strike Force..

And when I read that Second Last Line of the Boss's

"Defense,in the Best Form Of Attack"

Which, seems tae be wan of the Famous Paradoxes that the Boss comes awaw wi'

And reads like a Crock..

I realized that He is Right.

In too many games.. Especially those against Superior Opposition..like a good few Euro games..

Oor Defense hiv, mair times than no ... gien away.. a very EARLY GOAL..

and Ah mean EARLY!

and

When Ah go over in Memory...

The Games that we hiv Loast in a most Disheartening Fashion, because of a Defensive.. JUVENILE BLUNDER.

and ..especially, at SET PIECES.

Ah become mair and mair Convinced that Ah hiv been Barkin up a Gum Tree, when Ah should hiv bin Barkin up an Avocado Tree.

Whit we Need is a Strong Steady.. and Above all .. DOMINANT, experienced Center Hauf.. and

Things wull Fall into Place.

Just like ye noticed, in yer past Dabblement intae Team Management.

The Last ... DOMINANT CENTER HAUF that we HID...and Ah Mean..

DOMINANT..in the Physical Manner.. wiz..

Ye goat it, foist Time,pal..

Bobbo!

Big Balde, hid Physical Dominance Plus..

Howevah...

He did not hiv the Other, very Vital qualities that the Boss was talking aboot..

Bobbo.. Didnae have .. EXPERIENCE..and the wey he wiz panning oot, during his time a Celtic..

It was obvious that Bobo was wan of these Fellahs.. who

wid Never ever GAIN EXPERIENCE..

Something along the Lines of

AIDEN MCGEADY.

Bobbo didnae hae the Malum tae dae so.. again... Jist like Aiden.

Pity.. in Baith Cases.

Anyway..

Ah am thoroughly noo convinced that OOR Perennial Big Problems, wull soon become Little Ittybitty Wans..

Wnenevah..

We Sign..

A Physically Dominating and Experienced CENTER BACK.

That is the answer.

Kojo
yer pal.. who likes the wey ye think.. always have.. and always wull.

!

Evening Ghuys,

All this talk about who we might/need to sign in the up and coming January transfer window has got me thinking. Got me thinking about something which has been annoying me since the last January transfer window. Now bear with me here because I'm only a spark and have never claimed to have a good brain for business. But maybe Paul or someone who does have a head for business and figures could let me know if I'm talking rubbish. Also I don't claim that what I'm going to say is fact as I'm not privy to any inside information or anything but here goes:

As I was lead to believe last January our manager at the TIMe made it know to our board that he wanted to sign Steven Fletcher from Hibs. We were sittin about 7 pts clear of you know who ( who were/are rooked and would be signing hee haw ). We offered £2,000,000 but Hibs wanted £3,000,000. It was felt, as we were struggling a bit infront of goal, his capture would have given the club a lift. A bit of competition up front. Maybe given us that wee "feel good" injection to keep us on our merry way to 4 in a row and automatic champions league football the following season.

Now like I say I don't claim to have a good brain for business but I think paying that extra £1,000,000 would be a gamble worth taking. After all there is a possible £8,000,000 champions league money at stake here. Not to mention a 4th title in a row with all the bragging, feel good tom foolery which would come with that. " Mary let's take the bairns doon tae the superstore in get them all a 4 in a row tshirt, mug and matching duvet set " Oh and the small matter that your bitter rivals across the city would/could have been crushed beyond repair if they had to get past Arsenal ( or similar ) to get their grubby little mits on some of that desperately needed champions league cash.

Now even if you did spend that extra £1,000,000 and didn't win the league would it have been the end of the world? The end of our club? Would the banks have come knocking and shut us down? No they wouldn't. We could have a coped. We would have coped fine. Oh and we would still have had a £3,000,000 striker in our squad. He wouldn't have been taken away. He would still belong to us. It wouldn't have been £1,000,000 poured down the drain.

Ok, lets throw a wee spanner in the works. Your manager has told you he is leaving in 6 months TIMe at the end of the season. What if you spend £3,000,000 on this player and the new manager doesn't rate him? Well don't you think you owe it to the new manager to make his entry to the club as easy as possible? I mean surley you don't want him having to come in to the club when they have just thrown away a 4 in a row league title to their bitter rivals who are at the weakest they've been in a long Time. Surley you don't want him having the pressure of his first competetive games being champions league qualifiers? Surely you don't want him coming into the club when it's hanging under a black cloud. Surely you don't want him coming into the club when the support are upset, annoyed, and generally disillusioned with the direction the club are taking?

Like I say maybe I'm wrong but that £1,000 000 doesn't sound like it was worth keeping in the bank. It may have made all the difference or it may not. But I think it was definately worth taking the gamble with. But hey, I'm only an electrician. What do I know about running a business, sorry, A FOOTBALL CLUB.

I'm away to play 5 a sides in the rain and pretend I'm the holy goalie.

Hail hail.

Another reason for the shabby marking from Caldwell yesterday?

Could bet the amount of money he thinks hes worth!!...

£19000 stuck down your shorts Gary!! Makes it hard to jump properly for the ball?

Not so sure what causes most of his passes to go astray however?

Unless he keeps his brains in the foot of his socks!!

I can't think of anything positive to say, and the negatives have been covered by better commentators.
I'm going on Saturday, but with thinner expectations than I can remember for a long time.

Twists n turns

From last thread re. YNWA. I couldn't honestly tell you about Celtic or MU fans singing the song after Munich. However, what Bob Crampsey writes about the swaying etc is tosh.

There is old BBC documentary film which surfaces now and again showing the Kop swaying and singing a medley of Mersey Beat songs of the time about 1963/64. One of the songs is YNWA. Liverpool played Celtic in the ECWC in 1966 - a few years later. In the first game at Celtic Park (1-0), the Liverpool fans were in the Rangers end of the ground and the game had to be stopped because of crush barriers being broken when they swayed.

I was a bit of a fanatic in those days and attended just about every game we played in UK between about 1966 and 1970 with my mates from St. Pat's, Coatbridge. We travelled on Phil Cole's bus to the games. My first real memory of Celtic supporters singing YNWA was in 1969 in the Quarter Final of the European Cup at Parkhead when AC Milan beat us (0-1). 80000 fans sang it before the game started with raised scarves and we've been singing it ever since.

Random thought number 1420 in an intermittent series lacking any definition:

If the critical relationship at a football club is that between the Chief Exec and the Manager, does it serve Celtic well to have the manager hidden away in the Campsies while the Chief Exec is sipping his coffee in Kerrydale St?

Suggestion; Get PL a permanent office at Lennoxtown.

There is some significance within the trend of diminishing results since Lennoxtown opened.

A PS on TV3 Sports News tonight, announced that Sepp Blatter has called a meeting next week in South Africa, to discuss Henrygate and the pan European arrests in connection with corruption investigations.

I reckon he will be heading for Homebase to buy the biggest whitewash brush that he can find.

A lot of good, constructive comment on here today, sprinkled with the usual rubbish.

I would imagine the message has got through to the club that action has to be taken.

Apathy is the enemy of any entertainment company and is more dangerous to it's prosperity than anger, which can subside.

I am prepared,at this stage, to allow those who have the responsibility of running the club to provide the solutions to the current state of affairs.

It is in their best interests to so do.

Goodness knows the defence has been absent for a couple of months. Indeed, while the manager has been at Lennoxtown, has the defence been sipping coffee with Mr Lawwell?

Sadies Bhoy

Thanks for that. In fairness to Bob Crampsey, I suspect someone has used his name to try and add credence to their version of events,

I believe the late Bob Crampsey was actually very well regarded as an authority on the Scottish game.

I don't mind getting beat by Dundee Utd, I really don't. We are just not good enough as a team at the moment.

What I do mind though, and it really sticks in my craw!, is radio commentators celebrating every goal as a world cup winner. This is happening on a weekly basis now.

Just surprised at how many Falkirk, Kilmarnock, Utd supporting commentators there are.

Its just a big bloody conspiracy!

TBB
you are on to something there - the only problem is that TM must spend all his time at Kerrydale St and leaves the coaching (sic) up to Venos and Grant.

The Battered Bunnet

Good point re;relationships betweem PL and TM

I wonder if DBBIA has ever seen The Defence at the Burns Howff?

It maybe far fetched that Rangers finish out of top 2 but we could easily slip to 4th place very soon.

After drawing at Falkirk and losing to Hearts in the cup (who lost to St Johnstone on Sat) how many points do you think we will win before Christmas?

Kevtic

Get a grip man. You've been sucking on the magic mushrooms:-) The best thing that could happen is

Celtic
Hibs
Dundee Utd
Rubbish.

We are Celtic supporters. Celtic are our beloved team. We cannot ever wish some other outfit will beat us ......... unless of course we have already won the League and, say, if Hearts , for example, were to beat us it meant that the Huns would miss out on a CL place ........ like happened a couple of years back.

Make poifict sense to me as Kojo is wont to say.

Evening all. I have 2 tickets for Saturdays game v St Mirren for the South East Corner. £25 each and are seated together. Any takers???

ThinksiamgonnybeleftwitheseCSC

One thing I did notice was that Scott MacDonald does not seem to have lost an ounce of weight since "that photo".
His ample middle could clearly be seen at times, and this, to my mind, indicates a sort of contempt, or, if that's too strong a word, disrespect, for the club.
It may also explain why he kept falling over.

BernieErskine1967..

people are sruggling to give season books away to friends never mind sell them...

I think you may just be correct...

Extract from the BBC website

Wigan's players are to personally refund Latics fans who bought tickets at the DW Stadium for the 9-1 hammering at Tottenham on Sunday.

"We feel that as a group of players we badly let down our supporters yesterday," said Wigan captain Mario Melchiot via the official club website.

A stunt undoubtedly to deflect attention but do we have any players who would even think about this action. I'd suggest not

There were some bright spots, N'Guemo looked the part, Crosas had his best game in a Celtic jersey and deserves an extended run, McGeady tried hard but it's difficult when all around you is dross. The forward line and the defence were woeful. I could go on but we all know what we need in January, major surgery. Over to you Tony, sharpen your scalpel

Folly Folly
Apologies

Bernie
you could dop worse than offer them to Caldwell and McManus,
If they want them Ill pay

blantyretim

I have 2 of those anaw and have struggled to find any takers for the past 3 seasons when I am unable to go. These were for friends who cant come up now. I will have to stand outside the ticket office and try to punt them under the face value!

Jeremy Peace would struggle to sell tickets for Saturday.

Another problem position we have is Captain - the problem being there is no obvious candidate. It should be a player of stature and one that the rest of the team look-up to and respect.Should be the first name on the team sheet.
Mick, Heid - dont think so?
Artur / Brownie - wrong temprament

on current form - Hinkel or Crosas

rudderlessCSC

Why should we stick with Tony Mowbray?

Well, for one, the squad he inherited from WGS was mediocre at best, awful in parts and devoid if it's one genuine talent - Naka.

Some managers may have been able to do a better job than Tony at galvanising this lot for one more go (having stumbled to success two seasons earlier through circumstance more than anything else and failed miserably against a miserable huns team last season.

But is that a reason to get rid of him now? While most of those under-acheivers remain in place? Absolutely not.

Secondly, there was very little money made available to him in a very short space of time for him to reasonably make a significant difference to this team. He sais he would give everyone at the club a chance to prove themselves - and he has done that.

Thirdly, he has identified the very areas that we know are a problem and some people got all huffy about him being honest about them. WGS refused to acknowledge the problem areas and got slaughtered for it. Even worse, he refused to do anything about it. And we have seen the fruits of that stubborness throughout this season.

There is enough about Tony Mowbray for me to say "stick with him, shoulder to shoulder".

There are enough people letting him down on the park - and they know who they are - without us doing what the huns did with Bazza and Le Guen and turning on him as well.

We need that Tony Mow-berr-aayyy song more than ever in the coming weeks. Until we get a new central defence and a striker with pace and aggression. We're not too far away elsewhere.

Let's at least give Tony the job of getting rid of the mediocrity at the club and see how he fares with his own players around him.

Hail Hail Tony Mow-berr-ayyyy

Bernie

I know the problem well...good luck mate, get there early because there will be some people looking..

BT

Skippy is taking pelters much of it warranted

his weight
his attitude
his wee torn face

hes still the best centre weve got....for now

Che
i think Skippy is better comming on as sub as he plays as if he has something to prove.

Been lurking a lot lately, couldnt force myself to post after yesterdays defeat, read most of the posts though.

After the Falkirk game there was a consensus of opinion that Mowbray must go.

I tried to defend his position and had various debates about his ability and whether he should get more time, and whether there were alternate managers available who could come in and make a difference.

Yesterdays defeat was hard to take for me for a number of reasons, again our inability to get the basics right cost us dearly, free headers in the 6yd box led to goals, schoolboy defending of the highest order.

No leadership visible on the park, nobody grabbing the players by the scruff of the neck and making sure we gave nothing away in the last 5 minutes.

No leadership off the park either, Mowbray and Grant on the touchline looking lost, i nearly crashed the car on the way home from my old boys after watching the game, Mowbray states to Chick Dung there was an enormous gulf in class between the sides, i dunno what game you were watching Tony but it wasnt the same one as me.

Where we go from here i dont know, i am coming round to the idea that regime change could be the only thing left to save the season, i certainly dont expect the board to sack him or back him in January. Any money will have to be generated form sales so, Artur, Skoosh or Aiden will go to finance any wholesale change.

After the defeat at Aberdeen last year just before Xmas i stated that Gordon had to go and at that time they only debate we should have been having was when should he go....

I am nearly at that point with Tony, a good ghuy out of his depth, given no support from a contemptous board of penny pinching, downsizing spin merchants.

gebhoy

SadiesBhoy
I lived near Liverpool during 1963. Liverpool started singing it at the start of the 63/64 season. At that time, like today, the resident DJ played the current hits - the Kop used to sing-a-long with the records - mostly Mersyside bands and that's when YNWA started there.

I went to see Everton & Liverpool at home during alternate weeks and heard it then.

I game 'home' during Autumn '63 and we definitely weren't signing it then. I think your estimate is accurate. I haven't ever heard Man U sing it at any time.

biddulph

Im asking myself what happened to the wee guy that not so long ago was scoring goals for fun,

whats changed?

Id have him in the team every week just now, yes he gets caught offside, yes hes a torn faced wee bugger but at least he is up the park close to the goal,
The others?
Freddie Mercury floats about everywhere and cant hit the target from 6 yards
Fortune could not score in the proverbial house of ill repute

Re: Skippys weight

how a guy his size has a midrif that size when training daily is laughable. Oor auld Dixie Deans looked better.

And to concur with previous posters.... I too feel that is a sign of contempt for club and fans.

The boy obviously believes his own hype.

I feel he is average at best and should be one of the first in room 101 in January.

ScottishslimmersCSC

Jimthe tim:

I'm with you on N'guemo. I think he's beginning to adjust better to our football and is now realising that he will not get as much time on the ball as he did in France.He could be a player. I'm hoping his big pal he brought with him is also taking time to adjust but a hae ma dooots on him. Hinkel is a player, Crosas has the makings, Fox has the makings, McGeady (when he remembers football is a team game) is a player, both Poles are better than any keeper we've had for years, McGinn could be a player (but the way things are going probably not for us,) Caddis ditto. The rest of the first team squad are either mediochre or cheerio. close the door after ye.

Che
maybe he's missing JVOH

Bobby Evans Superstar -

Man Utd definitely sang YNWA.

His weight is easily explain Ches 1

its abundantly clear that he swallows all the B*** **** that the press have been feeding him

I recall the untouchable goalie being just an ounce or two over weight last season and at the beginning of this one,
never read many posts about his contempt for the club or the supporters,

All in all we wont agree on the future of the players or the manager, and thats a healthy sign methinks

What's interesting is that no-one seems to be calling for McCourt to get a start after the Falkiek game!

Biddulph

maybe he ate him

Biddulph

maybe he ate JVOH.

I had a dream last night that I was offered the Celtic Managers job and had to decide within 8 hours ( I get my reccommended sleep time) to take up the post!!?
Having deeply considered, I accepted!!
The challenge, to have the team playing the Celtic way again and to get the supporters behind me?
I knew what I had to do when I reached the front doors of Lennoxtown to start my first day in charge!.
P.45"s in hand I met them all at the door and repeated these words...
You were not good enough last season and you sure are not good enough this year...Your a footballer??..Get yourself out of here!!
( maybe watching Jordan in the jungle stired them words?)

I repeated these words to everyone that I believed could understand these INSTRUCTIONS and when the last envelope left my hand.....I knew we were heading in the right direction now!!

I also knew that the supportes needed to dare dream again!!So It was fortunate for me that Henrik accepted my short term contract and would commit to the end of the season!
I began my rebuilding programme by gettin Arthur back into form and into goals again!
Two center halves were purchased at undisclosed fees, a Midfeild General and captain was recruited for £3m and we found ourselves a Bosman from Bolton who would lead the line!!
A right winger and a sensational left back were added at a cost of £4m (well I believe that you all deserved a decent left back?) to complete my January spree!!
Just would like to thank the Board for all their financial backing in bringing these players to the club and their full support to me as the Manager!!.......Well as I said it was only a dream and it lasted only 8 hours?...If only supporting Celtic was this easy!!

The Battered Bunnet

I have to admit the Lennoxtown factor had been something I had thought about a wee while ago.

It is hard to be sure as the quality of opposition has diminished and our football budget (relative to wage inflation) has probably reduced but it is clear we have certainly not won as much or played as effectively since the move.

It feels like a lot more than 2 years since the move. In someways Parkhead and Barrowfield were another layer of the club which has been peeled away leaving less and less of a core as time goes on.

che and che1
skippy is the same weight as JVOH

he's not heavy for his height - he's short for his weight

Kojo & Auldheid

With respect, I think you've just switched from looking at one mucky window in the Celtic house to another.

Just because you've noticed that are defence aren't much cop doesn't mean that the main fault lies with our strikers. It does.

I'd agree with you if Celtic played a Walter Smith style of football and formation. Then we'd depend on our team to defend well and our centrebacks to be our mainstays. However, Celtic, under the current managerial regime you seem to want to keep in place, play (or at least put it on their mission statement) an 'open, expansive, attacking' style of football that relies on us scoring lots of goals. Now we have scored goals. Unfortunately, not enough of them are coming, especially in tough fictures, and especially from the strikers.

That is why I believe if we had to choose between a striker and an ugly centreback, I'd opt for the former. (Actually, I think we need a left back first and foremost - the original mucky windae!)

Paul there are rumours flying about that TM is unhappy and has offered his resignation a couple of times - do you have any info or is it rubbish ?

Saturday is looming as a massive game for TM, the players and the board
Should the huns drop anything at Aberdeen we need to capitalise, should they win we need to win to stay on their tails

At present we look as if when we get an early goal we could score 4 or 5
If we don't then we could easily draw or worse

I think we will win but that might paper over the cracks we all know are there

The board should be making big decisions about backing their manager or biting a bullet and bring in someone else.

I fear that they will do neither and place their hope in Lloyds

The club seems to lack day to day and strategic direction

DD is hardly ever here

JR only arrives at the weekend

We need someone on the spot who has the power to take quick and important decisions and give some leadership

TM might have talked a game at his interview but the harsh reality is that if we continue like this we could be in third or fourth place by the end of January !

TM might be a fine chap but he is in deep denial if he thinks we outclassed DU yesterday

I only hope that some on the board have the cohones to either back him with real money or sack him and bring a someone capable of working with the level of player we can afford

U2_1888
I'm with you. I reckon TM realises that the backbone of our team is not what he was led to believe. He brought players into the club because he was 'lucky' to have:
- Scotlands' two central defenders (Mick & Heid)
- A potential Dutch International defender (Loovens)
- Scotland's Player of the Year (Brown)
- Scotland's previous Player of the Year (McGeady)
- A prolific goalscorer (Skippy)
- A clutch of young talented players (wasn't told they midgets)

Of that lot, only Aiden has played well, albeit he has to work on his final ball.

TM will fix it - we need to be patient and get behind the team during this difficult period.

Have just read that second paragraph and need a headache pill.

It should read - Just because you've noticed that OUR defence aren't much cop doesn't mean that the main fault lies with our DEFENCE. It still lies with our strikers.

There ye go.

Tobi Legend
I don't remember Man U singing YNWA, but we used to sign Follow Follow so I guess anything's possible.

Bobby Evans, you're right, Aiden has to work on his final ball. Like learning not to give it to Fortune....:(

We go on and on about the poor squad he's inherited. Cue this scenario -

You have £20 million to donate to Celtic for the purchase of players this January.

Would you entrust it to Tony Mowbray?

On current and past form, sticking with TM until the end of the season is high risk imo

I'm getting fed up of this nonsense about Tony inheriting someone else's squad.
Every new manager, at whatever club they join, inherits someone else's squad.
Not every manager struggles to organise the squad he has.
Not every manager publicly announces that their defence does not cope well with a physical challenge.
I really, really want Tony to be a successful Celtic manager,but have to say that so far, I am not impressed.

Paul you said.....

The goals Celtic lost yesterday were not as a result of Dundee United's height advantage, or a lack of aerial ability in the Celtic team, they were the consequence of players not doing what was asked of them.

&

I have not mentioned Lukasz Zaluska in this analysis as the primary mistakes were not his but he was one step and an outreached arm away from both cross balls, and let's not start on the strikers, not today, anyway.

I feel both points are wrong.

The goals were lost due to a culmination of the above points, Height advantage, players not doing what is asked of them and a lack of ariel ability.

But most of all they are goals lost to trianing ground moves from Utd. Blocks made against markers and goalkeepers moves restricted from players in his path.

It is no coincedence that our GK couldnt get off his line, and that runs are blocked to create space (plus andy websters 2 armed bear hug on loovens??? i think.)

This happens at every level, i spotted the block move for the 2nd goal before tho corner was taken. Yet 2 "highly experienced" "international" (almost spat my dinner out there) centre halves, fell to a saturday morning trick.

The solution, you move them out the way. Get our players to get in there face, block them grab them, hold them.

If im the GK i tell my centre half the get this c**t out of my way.

If im the centre half trying to mark a guy who is hiding behind someone, who i "think" may try and block me, i mark the blocker ant tell one of my team to pick the other guy up.

IT ISNT THAT COMPLICATED. JUST TAKES A BIT OF BOTTLE TO MAKE THE DECISIONS.

aND WE HAVE NO BOTTLE AT ALL.

Dundee Utd prob never thought the moves would come off so bloody easily, but they forgot they are playing ageinst "fran & anna".

3 points lost against Rankers due to weak centre halves.
3 points lost to Dundee Utd due to weak centre halves.

Ive no doubt there is more, but im stressed enough without going over every crap game they have.

Someone tell me it will be all over soon, they wont get to play in the famous hoops again.

If Gers win their match in hand and beat us in Jan. they will be seven points clear.
Nightmare On Elm Street.

So fine everyone let's have patience. It's nothing to do with Tony. It's all the fault of those darned pesky players he was saddled with. No problem guv. Drop as many points as you like. We can all see that the inconvenience of competing in Europe would get in the way of the new vision and of course this CIS cup could never be won with this bunch of losers so thank goodness that's out of the way. Of course we can wait till the end of the season. What no Scottish Cup? Ah well winning that is something this lot could never do. No league title? Not to worry You were too far behind by the time you moved some on to catch up. Next season we'll see the real Celtic. Can't wait.

Molly Malone: Question is will they then do what we did (rwice!) and blow a seven point lead? Can't see it.

rdk7
I agree - central defenders are too easily out muscled. Two goals from two corners (the only two they got?) is not good enough. We didn't look like losing this game, then couldn't cope with the physical side of United's game when contesting high balls into the box.

Molly Malone / glendalystonsils
Slow down - these games have still to be played. When the Utd. v Rankers game was abandoned Utd were all over them like a rash, so there is no guarantee they'll get a result up there.

And if my auntie had ....

Re YNWA - I have a documnetary about how the start of the English hooligan problem, specifically focusing on Europe. It shows Arsenal fans in 1979 singing YNWA, so I guess it was a generic football song back then.

Glendalystonsils

I doubt if Boyd and co.would have had the squandermania bug that our lads suffered from yesterday.

Gordon-J

And if she has Not?... could be Gary Caldwell!!

Am I missing something here, the posters attacking DonegalDanny and Barcabhoy and condemning those lunatics among us who want a high spending strategy ? I cant see anyone proposing a high spending strategy. What we want is a strategy that doesn't revolve around the reduction of debt , as evidenced by a bonus paid to a CEO in a year when the club loses it's title and underperforms in Europe.

June 2008 - Ross McCormack - £120k to Cardiff
August 2008 - Jay Bothroyd - £350k to Cardiff
August 2008 - Anthony Annan £1.2m to Rosenberg
August 2008 - Sol Bamba £50k to Hibs
August 2009 - Steven Fletcher £3m to Burnley
August 2009 - Marko Pantelic - Free to Ajax
November 2009 - Stephen Appiah Free to Bologna

There's 7 players we could have afforded, all of whom would be better than players we currently have.

There's also Jan Vennegoor of Hesselink and Nakamura who could maybe have helped our current manager.

The club is being poorly managed, not just by Tony.

The problem, as I see it, is that Celtic fans will have to get used to this kind of level of football from our team, or rather,footballer playing for our team..i.e sub standard when compared to the international level we aspire to. We will, for a good few years, look back on the days when we were able to compete with the best in Europe ( at home, anyway), but sadly, I think that's gone, and I dont think its going to change in the next 5-10 years.
My reasoning is that there is no finance in place, either from the club, or from outside sources like television, to make a material difference to the fare on offer. We can't outbid Championship teams either on transfer fees or salaries,and the type of player who is available and willing to come to us is invariably doing so because a better offer has failed to materialise.
Until, and it will happen at some stage, football finances return to a level of normality, then things will remain bleak for us. When Sky realise that they are the only real option for the EPL, they will reduce their sponsorship accordingly. This will trickle down, with the result that salaries, transfer fees etc will fall sharply, leading to a more level playing field, as it were.

This may be bad news for the bulk of English and European teams who are essentially broke as it is, but wil leave well run, solvent clubs like ours in a strong position to take advantage of others ill fortune...

I hope.

AULDBHOY,

But she could still attack a high ball.

The players aren't good enough. We already knew that. Still, Tony Mowbrays job is to win the league. Bottom line is that although the players are bad, they are still not as bad as the rest they face in the league. It's up to the manager to ensure the players he has play to win every game and inevitably the league.
Truth is, I don't rate our chances of winning the league on the evidence of the first part of the season.
I have no confidence that Tony Mobray will be able to sign or will target the correct players.
Frankly I don't really care who goes on the playing side as long as we get the best money we can for them. (Aiden deserves a chance at a club where he can develop.)
A centre half who can head the ball, shout, clear lines and a centre forward who can score goals.
During the 90s I kept praying for one of the team to make that crunching tackle that could become a catalyst for a whole season. Barry Robson for Captain... Davie Hay as manager.

Bobby Evans Superstar

Sorry for giving you the jitters but Gers were a goal in front when the game was abandoned.

Season 2009-10 What Do You Think Of It So Far ? (Continued)

On October 4th Celtic took the field at Ibrox 4 points clear of a Rangers team in disarray. September had been a horrible month for them. They had lost 6 points due to three insipid 0-0 draws and five days previously had been humiliated by Seville on their own patch. In addition, for the Celtic game, they had Bougherra and McCulloch out, debutant Little in at right back and Manager Smith banished to the Stand.

Although we had our own injury call offs it did look as if we were about to seize the opportunity to go seven points clear. In the Broomloan Road end the Celtic fans sang and waved banners. For some victory was assured. Others had doubts, serious reservations about the ability of our own team to overcome even a weakened Rangers.

Why was that ? What was at the heart of the problem ?

After the disappointment against Dundee United and the second half capitulation against Hapoel Tel Aviv we had appeared to rally with three successive victories. Hearts, Falkirk(CIS) and away to St Mirren. On the sunny side up all seemed well. It was the other side, the one hidden from public view, that was the concern.

Tony had rushed things. Imposing his own brand of supposedly all singing all dancing attacking football on a team built to travel other roads to the success terminus. The new Celtic as promised in June would play the old way. The Celtic Way. The deal had been struck when the weather was good and optimism wore a bumlebee strip, shorts and all. The fans' gold, delivered in season books renewals, was the other half of the deal. The payment in advance for guarenteed entertainment.

A transition was needed. Unfortunately conditions of trade dictated otherwise. There was to be no time for gradual change, no scope for players easing into new systems. Entertaining free flowing football was to be implemented immediately regardless who it suited or didn't suit.

Suddenly Celtic had wing backs, not full backs. Wing backs running from their centre halfs rather than supporting them. And that would be two centre halfs, not the normal three in such a supposedly defensive set-p. In front of the wing backs were ball playing wingers who had the freedom to come inside and run with the ball. 2 defensive midfielders were to offer protection but Brown wanted to roam and N'Guemo was inconsistant.

Hinkel and Fox, not known for their defensive attributes, were the usual wing backs. McGeady and Maloney the preferred wingers.
Both wingers coming inside with the ball while at the same time the wing backs were high up the field presented enormous pressure on the team as a whole.

This was because McGeady and Maloney are gunslinger type of players. They put the ball between themselves and an opponent and after that it's quickest to the draw. Fine when it comes off. When it doesn't others are left out of position as the other team breaks quickly from defence into counter attack. There have been calls for McGeady to be given a more central role. Strachan did that in the CIS cup Final in March but he had a well-armed possee playing behind in the shape of Hartley, Caldwell and Brown. If McGeady was beaten to the draw then the possee would ensure that Rangers would not be able to get anywhere near the fort.

What has happened this season has been that players have made runs and been caught out of position. Poor midfield passing as well as lost possession being the main contributory factors. As a result players have been disinclined to race into space for fear a move breaks down and they are left exposed. Worse, they are blamed in the press and by the fans. For some players a loss of confidence has led to low morale.

The new style, the new system has achieved a situation where good players are being made to look bad. From 4-4-2 to 4-2-2-2 to 4-2-3-1, Players,in one week and out the next, have not seen the benefits of a settled team.

The outcome of Ibrox was that Celtic sitting on top of the league did not go 7 points clear. They ended the day 1 ahead. There followed a home draw against a highly skilled young Motherwell team which was followed by an unconvincing 2-1 win away to Hamilton. Maloney's spectacular bicycle kick opener was followed by McDonald's trademark opportunism. Hamilton pulled one back near the end when Zaluska stayed on his line rather than coming to the edge of his six yard line to gather a long free kick. The resultant ping ball ended with the ball in the Celtic net.

Kilmarnock were the visitors to Celtic Park six days later. Whereas Motherwell and Dundee Utd had equipped themselves admirably the Ayrshire team were not in the same class. Nevertheless Celtic can only beat was is put in front of them and ran out easy 3-0 winners. The fans were heartened by the display. Some spoke of a corner being turned. Some said that time would tell. Most asked a simple question - would we win at Falkirk the following week.

Television pictures gave us our answer. Green and white scarves lying dead by the trackside. The stakes were rising. That wasn't all. Tempers were too.

TO BE CONTINUED

CardiffBhoy - good point, but Sol Bamba!!!!

C'mon! He makes Frank McGarvey look predictable!

GordonJ

No offence to Gary! but She could probalbly pass a good ball out of defence better too!

MM
Yes, but how many times has a Utd team turned it around in the second have against us and 'them'? The result that day was definitely not a foregone conclusion.

'They' still have to go to Easter Road and Pittodrie (we've got Tynecastle - tough for us too). So, point is, still a lot of games to play before worrying about the Ne'erday game.

Tonys main fault was thinking that last seasons failures were worth another Chance?... After that mistake it was only a matter of time before the whole sorry tale unfolded in front of his eyes!!

We... and the Directors of Celtic Football Club already knew this!!
Someone should have told Tony...Or should Tony have knew this?
Good managers usually have this foresight!!?

The Left Back:
Aiden deserves a chance at a club where he can develop......

Thats a sad commentary because that's exactly what Celtic should be. Aiden may have his faults but IMO he is one of the few players we have with the pace and ability which is sadly lacking in our team.

croytim

problem seems to be that when clubs get into trouble in the epl either they get bought by someone or they drop down and someone else comes in the epl in their place and does the same.

the bubble wont burst for a few years yet, the new tv deal sky gave them at a time when confidence couldnt have been much lower has seen to that.

the solution for celtic is pretty simple, the manager needs to start managing the players properly and what money we spend we have to start spending better. the way we are going at the moment we could spend 20m and the team wouldnt get any better.

We're in for a helluva close title race with more than just the BIG TWO in the running.

My dear,dear,dear,dear,dear,dear,dear,dear,dear,dear,friend.. Gallowgate.

Bravissimo... Bambino!

Wow!

This stuff ye ur turning oot, is turning intae a Page Turner..Nay!

Check that!

A Pot Boiler?

That's It!

Loving every woid of it,pal..

Ye ur a Natural.. ye wull go faur.

Keep 'em Flyin'!

Kojo.

yer pal..who is a Sucker tae be impressed by impressive impressions.. of which ye ur in the process of makin'.

Is it a coincidence that the Hunbuns haven't lost a league game since 4 March, when their financial crisis was starting to become very difficult to ignore.?....remember now, .... the other teams have some real 'died-in-the-wool' rankers supporters playing for them, managers who have declared their support for rankers, board members whom won't even turn up at Celtic Park when their teams are visiting, a media which is 95% rankers supporters....I've said it before, we need to close ranks, support the team to the hilt (as our away fans do...partly due to the reception they, and the team, receive at EVERY away ground)....it's not quite as bad as it used to be, but is still a major factor, as Big Jock said..........it is disgusting to hear some 'Celtic fans'..? on the radio 'skwawk ins' being promoted as the spokesmen for th "majority of Celtic fans"....the pressure button is being pressed and we must react as true Celtic fans...THRY WILL NOT BE ALLOWED TO LOSE THIS SINCE THEY WILL GO BUST IF THEY DO.....and we have our part to play.....Hail Hail

Bobby Evans Superstar

We're in for a helluva close title race with more than just the BIG TWO in the running.

The only decent source of revenue for us is the CL. Thats why all at Celtic must pull together to win the league, I don't care if it's by one goal of goal difference.The management team and players have got to get together to squeeze a win out of this league and we have got to get behind them. Then we can start thinking about the next step. IMO runners up in the league are 99% certain not to make the group stages so 2nd is not good enough. (It never should be for Celtic anyway)

Folks, he had a decent - and I only mean decent - game yesterday.

Your and Tony Mowbray's elevation of Mcgeady to key-player status has been and will continue to be the undoing of this club.

He has had ample opportunity this season to fill the white boots, laid out neatly on his doorstep, by all and sundry - 20 games, to be precise.

Face it. It's just not happening.

Instead of harping on about 'all he needs is a better team', 'if only he had better players to pass to', has it ever occurred to you that he may not be what you think he is?

Until you do, and more importantly, until Tony Mowbray (or whichever manager is in charge come January) does, you'll continue running up the Mcgeady hamster wheel of frustration.

Sell him in January, get in a wide midfielder with pace who can deliver a final ball, and we'll find out two things: how we get on without him and how he gets on without Celtic.

Molly Malone
Can't disagree - the current league positions tell the reality of the situation.

I like Tony Mowbray, and I want him to succeed.

BUT

I felt he was 100% in the right when he publicly criticised those who were(and still are) under performing. I am sorry but the day you hold "clear the air talks" with McManus, Caldwell and co and let them dictate what is right and wrong when you are in charge is the day you should maybe think if you are the right man for the job or not. Especially when those you are appeasing are nowhere near the quality required nor worth half the money you pay them.

It doesn't take a genius to see that Mowbray said what he said to provoke a positive attitude. However, several idiots within the dressing room took exception and undermined his management style. It is now apparent the respect that should be there