Celtic fans return to Lanarkshire on Saturday, just a few miles away from New Douglas Park, where Hamilton Accies and Celtic fans were both harassed while cooperating together to protest against the Offensive Behaviour’ Act.
The policing at Hamilton two weeks ago was politically motivated. It used recent legislation, ostensibly designed to protect society from sectarianism, to prohibit peaceful political protest. The concerted forces of the Scottish Government and Police Scotland has ensured that your freedom to stage peaceful political protest is been enormously curtailed in recent years – banners bearing the message “Accies against the Act” were confiscated.
If you were subject to any of the well documented police action at Hamilton, and intend travelling to Motherwell on Saturday, do not be surprised if you are singled out.
Fir Park Motherwell is a considerably more combustible venue than New Douglas Park. It has been the scene of vandalism, general hooliganism and a pitch invasion to taunt opposition fans in recent times. Police appear reluctant to get involved with fans for these activities at Motherwell. As a football fan, it is your political views you have to watch out for.
Before planning your trip to Motherwell it’s worth revisiting this comment by Brogan Rogan’ last week.
Also take a look at the Citizens Advice notice on police powers in Scotland. If police search you, even if no offence has been committed, they can seize whatever they want. Some pretty innocuous political dissent has been proscribed. I’m appalled – and so are some officers I know.
Living on the streets in winter in Scotland has to be one of the most challenging aspects of humanity. Next month, you can share what this means, by sleeping trackside at Celtic Park with dozens of others for the Foundation, as part of hte 2015 Christmas Appeal. The Celtic Foundation provide nourishment and shelter to the many of the city’s homeless each winter.
This is social outreach at its hardest. There is nothing easy about sleeping rough in Scotland. You can find out more here. Join in and aim to raise £125. Well done to the dozens already signed up.
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Just visited the Italian Chapel on Orkney today. Very impressive. I was some what annoyed that some cretin felt the need to add some sectarian comments in the visitors book. Left a name and village in Ayrshire, lowest of the low.
HH
The huddle,
I think you can go back more than 20 years. I can’t remember us having many post Xmas jaunts in Europe in the mid 80’s
HH
Geordie Munro on 13th October 2015 5:34 pm
The huddle,
I think you can go back more than 20 years. I can’t remember us having many post Xmas jaunts in Europe in the mid 80’s
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Yep, 20 years was just a nice round number but if we’re honest apart from 60/70s we haven’t been a force in Europe.
Shaun Maloney your a doctor
Dallas-Wishart implied the same, after McGregor got a doing fromhis burd.
Geordie, I think it was around twenty plus years we were out of Europe before Christmas. In the 79/80 season , we got to the European cup quarter final and it wasnt until the Seville season we were still in Europe after Christmas.
GEORDIE MUNRO on 13TH OCTOBER 2015 5:05 PM
Would be very surprised if they didn’t take there allocation. Seems Budge has a major gripe with Celtic. The young team plastering Tynecastle with stickers has been frowned upon.
This bubble Hearts are in with higher than usual attendance will burst. Then Budge will be throwing tickets at us. Think a good Tim pumped her then dumped her years ago. Sad old women.
Baba bing. again no retraction in that instance from weasel Wishart.
Wishart getting a gig on SSB was predictable.
That’d be a good but not fussy Tim then :)
Baba should have been Bada, sorry
Noticing the empty spaces at Celtic Park is an observation, not an opinion.
the_huddle
By ‘other teams’, unless you mean Rangers pre-liquidation, you’re talking about teams on meagre resources. Of course they fail in Europe.
Last year’s Ronny rehabilitation conveniently coincided with the 2nd half of the season. Predictably, many began to think we’d do well in the next European campaign. If we’d played Aberdeen, Motherwell et al for much longer they’d have had us in the CL last 16.
The CL qualification campaign has been a rude awakening to those who were looking for progress in Ronny’s tenure.The frequent posts wondering how the naysayers would react when Ronny took us to the CL (remember that?) have turned into a defence of the ‘entertaining style of football’, something impossible to argue against as it’s a subjective judgement, or to put it another way, an ‘opinion’.
All the talk about tickets for that dump in Edinburgh.
Boycott the feckers they have ripped us off for years with charging the most for games against Celtic.
They would miss our money and soon back down.
HH
LENNON’S PASSION on 13TH OCTOBER 2015 5:45 PM
That be a desperate Tim man, she’s a midden.
Burghbhoy @ 15:36
So maloney needs to see a doctor for giving his own personal opinion
Well you may wish to opine that our esteemed captain needs to see a psychiatrist or psychologist after giving his opinion on leading out his national team in a meaningless friendly compared to leading his team out in the Champions league
http://sport.stv.tv/football/international/235945-scotland-skipper-scott-brown-cant-wait-for-huge-wembley-night/
up_over_goal
It’s just another spin, with different words in the same old broken record,……it’s called anti RD BOARD PL DD.
It’s all been said, and the same question I will ask, is all the slagging you dish out to the above,.
I’m assuming you have an alternative, and lead us to the promised land? Just asking like?
Policing as Celtic return to Lanarkshire
Celtic Park is in Lanarkshire!! That’s like saying that after 7 weeks of sitting at the bar in Sharkey’s, without leaving I returned to that stool at that bar in Sharkey’s. That’s would require access to the TARDIS.
More than that, the phrase ‘Celtic return….’ Is dubiously ungrammatical. Surely Celtic – more than any other emanation of the universe, deserves the adjective “collective” as in Collective noun. The strict verbal demonstrable should be ‘returns’.
Some unworthy critics may say that the headline is either a sign of lack of education or that my response is the snakepit of a surfeit of narcotics. Obviously the latter cannot be the case…..but neither is the first.!!
Look closely at the phrase ‘ lack of’….an obvious anagram by twisted boggots of the mefieval term ‘ Caflock’, which was an early ennunciation of “Catholic”.
I think it is reasonable to conclude that the compilers of the Oxford English Dictionary are covert agents for the masonic tribes of tree dwellers.
Hail hail
Eatadio
up_over_goal on 13th October 2015 5:51 pm
By ‘other teams’, unless you mean Rangers pre-liquidation, you’re talking about teams on meagre resources. Of course they fail in Europe.
Last year’s Ronny rehabilitation conveniently coincided with the 2nd half of the season. Predictably, many began to think we’d do well in the next European campaign. If we’d played Aberdeen, Motherwell et al for much longer they’d have had us in the CL last 16.
————–
You were the one that mentioned the rest of the SPL in Europe as some sort of benchmark.
I don’t think we’re a CL club so why would I think we’d be tearing it up this year. A big stadium and lots of fans doesn’t mean you qualify for the CL.
I know some fans on here bizarrely think we should be a last 16 CL team, that’s maybe the issue.
The CL qualification campaign has been a rude awakening to those who were looking for progress in Ronny’s tenure.The frequent posts wondering how the naysayers would react when Ronny took us to the CL (remember that?) have turned into a defence of the ‘entertaining style of football’, something impossible to argue against as it’s a subjective judgement, or to put it another way, an ‘opinion’.
– See more at: http://www.celticquicknews.co.uk/policing-as-celtic-return-to-lanarkshire/comment-page-3/#comment-2696378
Above post was a mess of a copy paste but you get the gist :O)
“The frequent posts wondering how the naysayers would react when Ronny took us to the CL”
up over,
I think someone has done weemingers ignory poster thingy to my browser as I can’t recall any of those frequent posts.
HH
Lennons Passion
Doesn’t really matter wether Hearts home support has increased or not…….as it is there is no chance that an alleged reduced allocation to the Celtic Support would lead to an increased allocation to the hearts support due to the simple fact that segregation is almost an impossibility in the end allocated to the Celtic support
As far as I am aware there is one set of turnstiles for entry and the exits are at the same location
In the past I have been subjected to the reduced allocation excuses but by securing tickets by other means have been able to observe that this has in fact not been the case as it the end always seems full to capacity even although Celtic state they have received a reduced allocation
Mickbhoy 1888
Shaun is supposed to be a Celtic supporter.
He cant be IMO coming out with guff like that.
I just know how I felt after that game.
i didn’t give the Scotland game a minutes thought.
UP_OVER_GOAL on 13TH OCTOBER 2015 5:17 PM
It shouldn’t matter what any one person thinks of our football style – fewer people than ever are attending games because they are bored with the product on the park.
Indeed, if you look at the gulf in average market value of our players v the rest, last year’s gap was the highest yet. This year, Aberdeen have spent a bit more, so it’ll be a tighter contest, but anyone other than Celtic winning the league year would be an unprecedented
If Celtic’s success in the SPFL is not reflected in their European results (and it isn’t), the obvious conclusion to draw is that the Scottish teams around us are simply worsening faster than we are.
This is managed decline.
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Not necessarily disagreeing with your conclusion, but you move very quickly from unqualified assertion “fewer people than ever are attending games” to confident conclusion “Scottish teams around us are simply worsening faster than we are.” and then on to blame “This is managed decline”.
Let’s take last season since it is complete. Last season was not the lowest average attendance ever. It was lowest average attendance since 1995/1996 – but still higher than every year prior to that, back to season 1890/1891. Last season was also not the greatest fall in attendance in the last 20 years – that was season 2009/2010 when we lost 11,784 supporters from the previous season’s average attendance. I would suggest that decline was due to people having less money since that’s when the recession bit. For more info see :
http://www.economicshelp.org/blog/7501/economics/the-great-recession/
Since then, I’d attribute further decline on the huns not being there. Unpalatable as it sounds, many people will return when theres a Celtic v Sevco game. Celtic Park will sell out – no matter how shite you think the product on the pitch is
But setting all this aside, when you say “This is a managed decline” – are you suggesting that Celtic FC are trying to do this deliberately? If so – to what end? Why would they want a fall in attendances when, apparently, all they are interested in is money?
tonydonnelly67
I’m not against the board particularly, just Ronny. Get a new manager. I think Kris Commons as player manager would do a better job.
the huddle
You don’t think we’re a CL club? Well, we’re not, but we should be. Celtic > Malmo/Legia.
Geordie Munro
Ask Tony Donelly. He wrote quite a few of them.
Ps. Ridiculous from Broonie as well
up_over_goal on 13th October 2015 6:22 pm
the huddle
You don’t think we’re a CL club? Well, we’re not, but we should be. Celtic > Malmo/Legia.
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Add Ajax, Dortmund etc – the world has changed Malmo beat us so they are the CL team this year but lets be honest both clubs are just making up the numbers in the group stages.
All these types of clubs will swap positions over the years but never really progress, as in my opinion, the money in the top leagues excludes us from ever improving.
NatKnow
Fair point.
I’ll change ‘fewer than ever’ to ‘smallest attendance in 20 years’.
I don’t blame the board – there is no easy way to improve the product on the park, and we have to cut costs with Rangers out of the picture. I don’t even think Ronny is a bad manager. I just think we could and should be doing better with what we have. I also get irked to read that, after 2 seasons of missing out on the CL, the football is ‘more entertaining’.
The CL is not a shoe in any more, there are no guarantees, not matter who qualifying .
But player manager at Celtic park? You honestly can’t be serious?
up_over_goal on 13th October 2015 6:31 pm
I don’t blame the board – there is no easy way to improve the product on the park, and we have to cut costs with Rangers out of the picture. I don’t even think Ronny is a bad manager. I just think we could and should be doing better with what we have. I also get irked to read that, after 2 seasons of missing out on the CL, the football is ‘more entertaining’.
————
See that post I can sort of agree with, entertaining is subjective, doesn’t even mean the quality of football it better, just that one fan liked a game and the other didn’t.
As a club we’re screwed at the moment, maybe for years, I don’t know. I’m still hopeful that something changes in world football.
http://talkingbaws.com/2015/10/police-are-driving-fans-away-celtic-fan-group-believes-harassment-is-a-growing-problem-in-scottish-football/
HomeFootball
“Police Are Driving Fans Away” – Supporters Group Believes Harassment Is a Growing Problem In Scottish Football
OCTOBER 12TH, 2015 SCOTT MACARTHUR FOOTBALL 1 COMMENT
As fans of the sport we all see football as the beautiful game with supporters making the spectacle by creating atmosphere in the grounds with their chants, flags and banner displays.
This is especially the case in European football where the use of pyrotechnics and full stadium terrace singing is almost seen as entertainment alone while the stars who are paid thousands do their business on the pitch.
But in Scotland fans can be removed from the stadium and face criminal charges for singing a song that may be deemed offensive in an Act of Law under the Offensive Behaviour at Football Act (OFBA).
It is this Act that Celtic fans protested against during their game against Hamilton last weekend with a banner reading: “Police Scotland, Focus On Your Own Failings, Not Football Fans.”
This was then confiscated by police who released a statement the following day insisting no banners were confiscated despite video evidence leaving Celtic fans in outrage.
Fans Against Criminalisation – an organisation involving fans of football clubs across the country – have been an avenue for Scottish supporters to have their say since the Act was introduced in 2012 and last week was extremely busy for them with many fans crying out for help.
However, Jeanette Findlay of FAC spoke exclusively to talkingbaws where she insisted that police harassment is a growing problem across Scotland after Celtic fans were stopped and asked to give their full details to a camera before the Fenerbahce Europa League clash and added that fans are being driven away from attending football games.
Most people at the game wouldn’t have been aware that all this was going on. But that is true of a lot of games. The cops are cute enough to grab people in the concourses or, quite often, by coming to their home or place of work later – sometimes weeks later – after reviewing video evidence to see if they can get ‘offended’ – that is all it takes sadly. Thankfully, the fans were quick thinking and very astute to film their actions.
We plan to submit a formal complaint next week where we will also raise what happened before the Fenerbahce match where people were unlawfully stopped, unlawfully detained and unlawfully forced to give personal details in front of a camera as well as police comments which stated no banners were confiscated.
Celtic are opposed to the bill, however, we need to see more action from the other clubs. It is their ‘customers’ who are being driven away from football by the Act and the way the police enforce it.
It is hard to get precise numbers because other things have happened at the same time which have reduced attendance – mainly to do with the financial climate but also to do with the structure of Scottish football and the ‘product’ on offer. However, we know that there are people who have dropped out because they are fed up paying over the odds to be treated like sub-humans. To be honest, if you had a young relative going along you might well advise them to stay away rather than risk their future through receiving an unwarranted criminal record on the back of this Act.
lionroars67 on 13th October 2015 6:39 pm
http://talkingbaws.com/2015/10/police-are-driving-fans-away-celtic-fan-group-believes-harassment-is-a-growing-problem-in-scottish-football/
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So is it not worth considering not taking tickets for the mini huns away?
the huddle
Big solution – abolish the SPFL and create a British Premier League. Celtic would get the chance of growing into its skin as one of the world’s truly great clubs.
You’d also rid Scotland of the nationalist virus.
I suppose if I had to put up with two soul rippeningly soul shattering contradictions caused by cultural upbringing, than supporting Celtic AND harbouring an irrational hatred of Sweetcorn probably wasn’t really at the cutting edge of onfantile confusion.
The affection with, attraction to, and starry eyed empathy with a club that was built of peat and sparked an eternal fire on Glasgow’s skyline, will live forever…. BUT….the hatred of Sweet corn? Wow that’s a story… Back shortly
Hail hail
Estadio
up_over_goal on 13th October 2015 6:46 pm
the huddle
Big solution – abolish the SPFL and create a British Premier League. Celtic would get the chance of growing into its skin as one of the world’s truly great clubs.
You’d also rid Scotland of the nationalist virus.
———-
I’d be up for that.
Said before I’d take starting in the English non league and working our way up. Extreme but things are only gonna get worse unless we do something drastic.
Burghbhoy
Maybe Shaun Maloney considered this was his lastchance at representing Scotland at a major Championship maybe at the time Shaun was confident that other championships would come in his time at Celtic
Doesn’t make him any less of a Celtic supporter because he didn’t take it as badly as you me or anyone else
I consider Henrik Larsonn as my greatest ever Celt even although a Celtic commissioned opinion poll disagreed with me so I am booking an appointment straight away with my GP tomorrow
Longer post – with the usual apologies :o)
As far as the OBAF Act is concerned, the police have a much broader discretion than many of us imagine.
“Regulated football matches” and “offensive behaviour” are where the Act starts, but is very much not where it finishes.
The Act refers to behaviour that incites hatred towards religious groups, cultural groups and others such as colour, nationality, gender, sexual orientation, disability etc, but it contains the some important caveats that hand Police Scotland some very broad powers to stop, question, detain and arrest you.
For example, the Act stipulates that…
* The behaviour is likely to incite public disorder, or would be likely to incite public disorder, EVEN IF measures are in place to prevent public disorder, or persons likely to be incited to public disorder are not present or are not present in sufficient numbers.
[So, the fact that you are a puny 17 year old and there are 20 burly cops with no other person around, means that you will get lifted if ONE copper decides that what you are doing would be likely to incite public disorder- had there been anyone around!]
* The behaviour is threatening or is behaviour that a reasonable person would be likely to consider offensive.
[Under this very subjective provision, an individual policeman only has to say that he believed what you were doing was such that the imaginary “reasonable person” would consider to be offensive.]
The Act also provides for a very wide range of potential locations where these powers can be exercised, more than we might imagine, AND the range persons who fall within the remit of it is very wide.
For example…
* a regulated football match is every senior game in Scotland PLUS any game involving Scottish clubs outside of Scotland AND any Scotland international match.
* YOU are liable to arrest etc if you are in the grounds where these matches are taking place, when you are entering of leaving (or attempting to do so) OR on a journey to or from such a game.
* YOU are liable to the provisions of this act if you are not actually in the ground but direct your behaviour towards people who are in the ground OR you behave in conjunction with people inside the ground.
* You are considered ti be travelling to or from the game, even if you didn’t get in or are not likely to get in. THIS APPLIES EVEN IF YOU ARE TRAVELLING BACK FROM THE GAME DYAS AFTERWARDS.
* These powers extend to places where the game is being televised (other than private houses).
[Under this Act the Police at Hamilton had no powers to detain etc the fans in Morrisons Car Park. The banners didn’t contravene the behaviour element of the Act, since it wasn’t directed at any of the specified groups. The Act makes it very clear that the behaviour has to have both elements to fall within the ACT
Both “inciting public disorder” AND “directed towards one of the named groups”.
Therefore, the police acted unlawfully by taking the banners from the fans, and further when they did not specify under what authority they did so nor why they stopped and took personal details of the fans either. This also means that they contravened their own discipline code by their actions.]
The later denial by Police Scotland that any banners had been taken from the fans simply illustrates that there was knowledge somewhere in the hierarchy that the police had acted wrongly. Either the police who took them denied doing so to their supervisors or the supervisors realized this after the event and presented the alternative official version – for obvious reasons.
Be very interesting to know if the fans actually got their banners back or have they (the banners) been disappeared. Maybe they are still lying in a property office in a Hamilton Police Station.
As for giving personal details to the Police on demand, then as long as the police officer reasonable suspects that you may have committed an offence or witnessed any offence, they are entitled to ask for details, but only sufficient details to identify you.
If you refuse you can be charged with an offence but a conviction would be predicated upon the officer’s original suspicion being justified.
This scenario then becomes another area where an unscrupulous/dishonest police officer can retrospectively lie to justify an unlawful request for personal details.
All of this means that the police have a very broad discretion in dealings with fans of all clubs. They might argue that they need an element of discretion to do their job, but that only works if they honest and seen to be honest.
The collapse of several prosecutions under this act on the basis of tainted/false police evidence makes it clear that they do not deserve the discretionary powers.
A bad law implemented by politically motivated Police action and substantiated by an unaccountable and dishonest police force is, quite frankly, the mechanism of a Police State.
On their own site, the Scottish Government trumpets the results of a survey and tells us the following
89% of Scots agree that sectarianism is offensive
89% of Scots agree that sectarianism is unacceptable in Scottish football
85% of Scots agree that sectarianism should be a criminal offence
91% agree that stronger action needs to be taken to tackle sectarianism and offensive behaviour associated with football in Scotland
Once again, banal and meaningless statistics used to prop up whatever wretched legislation they enact.
How could anyone disagree that sectarianism is offensive and unacceptable?
As for the “sectarianism should be a criminal offence” question – well actually it has been a criminal offence before this act was cobbled together.
Lastly, imagine the response if a Scottish Government survey posede this question.
“Do you think that WEAKER action should be used to tackle sectarianism and offensive behaviour associated with football in Scotland?”
HH
Mickbhoy
Hey you! Whaddya mean ‘back up’?
Ye cannae go back up, or down for that matter, to a place ye’ve never been!
Sevco trying to reach the top tier of Scottish football for the first time in their league titleless, flat-chested 3 year history.
MICKBHOY1888 on 13TH OCTOBER 2015 6:16 PM
The stand Celtic get for Tynecastle is 100% split between Hearts and Celtic don’t know how Hearts fans enter but they do. This is just started this season.