Dundee United chairman Stephen Thompson’s comments to yesterdays’ Herald are worthy of attention. During the summer, when United received a £1m bid from Rangers for David Goodwillie and Blackburn Rovers were hovering, Bank of Scotland, took an active part in the deliberations. Thompson told the Herald, “The bank wanted me to take £1.2m for him, but I said no to that. I had to stand up against the bank.”
Thompson more than doubled the money on offer for Goodwillie, allowing him to shave over £2m off their bank debt, but this exchange took place only a few months after the same bank told former Rangers chairman, Alastair Johnston, to accept the bid for the club from Motherwell born thousandaire Craig Whyte or the bank would demand same-day repayment of Rangers borrowings.
Bank of Scotland, part of Lloyds Banking Group (LBG), are significantly exposed to Scottish football and required a taxpayer bail-out two years ago, so although their interference in the running of clubs could seem overbearing, we shouldn’t be surprised at it. It’s business, and if you are employed at LBG with a responsibility to your taxpayer-shareholder, it’s necessary business.
Fortunately, Celtic are free from such interference, as are Rangers, thanks to their aforementioned benefactor, but if a liquidation event at a large club threatened income streams to the league I would be amazed if the Bank didn’t use the ‘Vote Newo FC into the SPL or repay your borrowings immediately’ line.
Stephen Thompson, who sits on the SPL board, might not have a choice on whether or not to vote a Newco FC into the SPL ahead of 30 Scottish Football League clubs, but he and his fellow board members will be able to set the tariff on any exceptional league entry to what would become a financially privileged football franchise.
12 seasons of cumulative benefit from financial mis-dealings should result in 12 seasons of penury at whatever points rate the league calculate benefit was accrued. For one scenario I have in mind, around 15 points per season sounds fair, with an expunging from the records of any trophies ‘won’ by Financial Doping.
This is measured, deliverable, is in the power of the SPL board to impose, and sets a minimum moral hazard to inhibit future mis-deeds.
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Sorry if already posted but this is to save any others from going onto the STV (Save The Vermin) website:
“A former English Premiership referee’s personal website has been suspended after an offensive rant against the Catholic Church and Celtic appeared on the blog.
The blog entry, posted under the name of Jeff Winter, asked whether “altar boys” would get “abused in celebration” after Celtic won the latest Old Firm game last month.
The post on the 56-year-old’s website also described Pope Benedict XVI as “dress wearing, Nazi, kiddy fiddling protector”.
On Thursday morning, web hosting company 123-Reg suspended the site after the post was widely circulated on social media site Twitter. The company refused to comment on the reasons behind the move.
Mr Winter has worked as a pundit for Sky Sports and Talksport Radio since retiring as an official in 2004 and has performed on the after-dinner speaker circuit.
His blog post was meant to be charting a winter trip around New Zealand and Australia.
In the middle of describing his travels, the blog contains an abbreviation known as an offensive reference to the Pope and refers to Celtic’s home ground as “Septick Park” (sic).
On his official Twitter account Mr Winter describes himself as a supporter of Middlesbrough and Rangers. In November 2010 he was pictured attending Rangers’ 3-1 win over St Mirren in Paisley.
The post, made on December 30, has been followed by several other blog entries since and has been widely circulated on Twitter.
Football pundit Gabriele Marcotti revealed he had contacted Mr Winter about the posts to establish whether or not the site had been hacked and had received a reply saying Mr Winter’s website manager was looking into it.
Strathclyde Police said they had been made aware of the remarks and were carrying out enquiries into it.
Celtic FC confirmed they had taken legal advice over the post and made a complaint to the police regarding it.”
JJ
Asked a question yesterday but don’t think there was a response so I’ll try again.
Does anyone know WHEN the huns received their “wee” tax bill?
I am interested in developing a timeline from when they received it to when they applied for their European licence for the current season.
kojo,
the plc’s arrogance again showing them up, expecting to be invited to the epl or championship. 4 or 5 years ago I suggested on here we should have moved to the lower english divisions, arrogance was why we didnt, now a wee bit of humility might have been force down the plc’s throat, but as I said earlier I dont believe the plc have learned any lessons, their stupidity and arrogance has only gotten worse over the last few years from what I’ve seen.
To the extent they are happy to tel the world we are two sides of the same coin. Old Firm die hards will have to die hard I’m afraid.
Just re-capping out-loud, for my own benefit:
Can’t see how Oldco can survive an adverse FTT ruling; meanwhile, all lindicators are that MBBCW’s business plan hinges on Oldco’s demise.
Also can’t understand how a Newco could be admitted to the SPL with (onerous) conditions attached. The only fitting ‘punishment’ would be admission via a lower division.
If the plc (Celtic) votes to admit Newco => BIG chance that very many Celtic fans will vote with their feet and (at the very least) suspend their support.
If the plc votes against admitting Newco, but Newco nonetheless gets SPL entry on back of all other member clubs’ votes => there is still a chance that large numbers of Celtic fans (and possibly many fans of other clubs) will divert their money towards other pursuits.
The club (being mostly owned by a wealthy individual who presumably won’t prepared to write of tens of millions of pounds on a point of principle, by supporting the club’s resignation from the league) is in a preverbial pickle: damned if it does, damned if it doesn’t. Nonetheless, it would appear to have no option other than to vote against admittance of any Newco.
If the foregoing holds true, it would seem to fall to the fans (Association and Trust, amongst others) to organise themsleves as quickly as possible to let it be known that any club voting in favour of anything remotely looking like a free pass back into the SPL for Newco can expect the most severe (entirely legal) consequences.
FF
LiviBhoy @14.59
A valid point but, in my experience, the English fans` hatred is not as deeply ingrained as their Scottish counterparts. I believe, in the extremely unlikely event that we EVER join an English League, that, before very long, they would trust the evidence of their own eyes and warm to us as most of Europe has done,
JJ
PS Does anyone else ever get the urge to sign off with the “Your pal who likes you a loater” of Kojo fame o:-) ?
Medtim – that’s a question for RTC but from memory the huns were aware of the bill at least a couple of years ago. That’s why some people thought that is was strange that it apparently only showed up during due diligence when Murray sold up to Whyte. It was known about quite a while ago iirc.
Aw Naw & Brimmer
HAPPY BIRTHDAY Bhoys
HAIL HAIL
My dear,dear,dear,friend.. Livibhoy
Pal..
The Simple Solution tae this, Farrago. in Which we are Embroiled.
Is this..
Celtic MUST LEAVE SCOTLAND.
Noo.. England is the most Obvious Choice..
Europe..?
Why No.
Howevah…
When awe is said and no said..
Celtic, Must Get oota the S.P.L.
fur..
As you know and Ah know..
Scotland, jist disnae .. Dae Catholics!
And.. Rightly,or Wrangly..
Celtic, is Considered tae Be a ..”Catholic ” Fitba’ Team.
And
That is the real Reason, why..
Celtic, Must Get Oot this Bigotted Environment.
Fur, believe me..
The G.A…
AIN”T GOING DOON!
They wull Ayewiz be with us..if we Remain in the S.P.L.
Kojo
yer pal.who likes ye aloater.
Kojo, we don’t need to go anywhere. Celtic refusing to accept a Newco into the SPL will drive home the issue of sporting integrity and force the issue. If the SPL can’t survive withour Rangers, it can’t survive without Celtic either. I have read many of your posts and you clearly have a right wing capatalist view point, I have no issues with that. So what would you accept is reasonable to allow the “business” to continue (i.e. Rangers and Celtic in the same league)?
LiviBhoy
Anywhere would do me! Im seriously sick of Scottish football & everything about it.
A European League would be good, Do you mean with Clubs from countries such as Holland, Norway, Portugal etc?
Paul,
I think that your thesis of the newco leapfrogging existing members of the football leagues is slightly simplistic and does not reflect what I expect to happen.
When Rangers fold they will propose entry with a Newco, which will cause turmoil amongst the existing structure and there will be discussions about sporting integrity etc. To save face I believe the SFL will break-up and a new league body will form. The new League body will define criteria for entry into the top division, and knowing the Newco will be playing at Ibrokes, they will probably take stadium size as the key criteria for entry into the top league thus ensuring Newco’s presence in a top division that would avoid any perceived injustices by simply reforming.
Same old, same old…CFC
If rangers are liquidised then rangers fc will be dissolved COMPLETELY in every sense..they will be NO MORE!! Then if theyre current custodians decide to, a newco will be born….Remember, a newco with Zero games played, won lost or drawn, Zero trophys etc and so it goes on.Normal process dictates that every other club from div1 -3 will move up 1 position and the vacant space will be applied for at the foot of div 3.
For a newco without any record of playing football what so ever, to be thrust straight into the spl ahead of all other clubs, who have tried hard to balance the books on a shoestring buget, that will be the biggest injustice to every shareholder, manager and fan of every club in scotland.. That act if it happens WILL BE THE DEATH OF SCOTTISH FOOTBALL….Not the fact that there won’t be a rangers…Celtic are the pull to scottish football, and nobody should ever forget that!
In my opinion they won’t be allowed straight into the Spl, but on the same token I cannot see that lot facing the appropriate consequences for more than a decades worth of financial doping…Although a world without rangers in existance is more than I could ever have dreamed of.
Where’s SwanseaBhoy? How long does it take to get a broadband connection in Coatbridge?
Serge says:
12 January, 2012 at 15:08
Only solution I can see. I would not want to play as an English club in England. That’s just a personal preference. We have done nothing wrong. Why try and leave? Why not fight for what is right? If Celtic were serious about England they would have bought a feeder club by now. Stalybridge Celtic would be as good as any. I can’t see it happening!
LB
tomtheleedstim
thanks for that.
I recall whyte saying that it came up during due diligence so,if we take it from the time he officially took over (early may iirc) then it must have been before then.
The reason I am keen to find out is that,as far as I am aware,applications for Euro licences include a question re. any outstanding tax bills (uncontested) at 31st March.
If I understand the rules correctly,an outstanding bill bars you from getting a licence.If the huns had the “wee” tax bill in their possession before 31st March then there are only a limited number of possibilities re. what happened next.
1.They omitted mention from application to the sfa….= they should be punished (plus huge ? over sfa vetting process)
2.The included it and got a licence wrongly approved….= the sfa should be punished
3.There is some form of “get out” that I can’t see.
Any help you or others can provide would be welcome.
I know Mr. Regan at the sfa has been asked about this but don’t know if he has responded
LiviBhoy. 14.59
I don’t think the problems you suggest would happen on a large scale.
I have discussed this situation with fans of QPR,Crystal Palace and Millwall.Now you would think that Millwall would be one of the biggest problem re visiting fans,but they all said it wasn’t,as due to policing the visiting fans had no contact with the home fans.
The police would ensure the same would happen with the Celtic support.Slan
Paul 67
Excellent article again.
I think the issue with this debate is it will never get a fair hearing in this country due to people with a vested interest and the ‘compliant’ media.
The debate has to go to a wider audience.(i.e. outwith Scotland). I’m sure a there are people on this blog who could facilitate this.
HH
livibhoy,
why buy a feeder club, berwick play in scotland and a couple of welsh clubs already playing in england, precedents are set, all we need to do a take advantage of the existing opportunities.
Right now I’d want the club to buy the gretna stadium and register a team in the northern conference league, that way regardlss of the outcome of the newco debacle we already have a foot across the border.
It would also get right up salmonds nose big time :D
LiviBhoy
Fair point, Again! haha. I think there was talks with clubs such as Ajax etc a year ago. Maybe there will be a total revamp of European Football. Personally i would love to see us in a European League with the big boys if there was a 2 to 3 league pyramid system. then we would see our full potential.
My dear,dear,dear,friend… Allyhuntersgloves
Pal.
Ah am A Selfish.. Egotistical.. CAPITALIST.
That is whit Ah am.. and Ah mak Nae Excuses fur Being That.
Ah Come First.. Then.. Ma Family… and.. well.. that’s aboot it.
Noo..if a Puir Sowell is Suffering fae..
Poor Health..or.. any Kinda Physical or MENTAL Handicap
By all Means.. He or she.. should be Most certainly Helped
Howevahhhh..
Anywan Else.. who has awe awe their Physical and Mental Faculties
in Guid Shape..
Should Mak it ,
Entirely oan their Own..
Ah dinna believe in Governmental Help.. in any shape or Form
fur them.
Well.. Ah guess that aboot covers it.
Pal..
Get this..
Ah am Completely..
APOLITICAL..
Ah do not Subscribe to the Philosophy of ANY POLITICAL PARTY.
Ah simply.. Detest and Abhor..
ALL POLITICAL PARTIES..
Be they
Right Wing or Left Wing or Centrist.
Politicians are only interested in Getting a Cushy Joab..
Do not Believe anything which they Promise..
They are all the Same.
There is No a Dimes worth of Difference Between
THE PRIVATE AIMS..of Any of the Members of the Different
Political Parties..
All Politicians and Aspiring Politicians are
Only interested in
POWER..
That is awe they want.. Power…
Politics, is a Racket…
Well. Ah guess that is enuff o’ Ma Philosphising..
Kojo
yer pal.. who likes ye aloater
and dinna forget this…
If ye canny mak it, oan yer own ..
Then..
It’s Jist Too Bad.
Neil canamalar Lennon hunskelper extrordinaire says:
12 January, 2012 at 15:19
I think the rules have moved on since Berwick joined the Scottish league and the Welsh sides joined the English league.
If Celtic and Rangers could have got into England they would have done it years ago. Just because Rangers go bust or sneak back into the league doesn’t make it any easier for us to move anywhere.
Do we take the huff and end up with no league?
We as a club and as a support need to lobby other clubs and their fans and get the general consensus. If they back us then that is the road to go down. get our own house in order because the doors to other houses are locked and as yet we have no key!
LB
Medtim – as far as I am aware the suggestion is that no.1 may be the correct answer. Auldheid and others on here frequent RTC and would be more able to verify invoice date etc.
tomtheleedstim
thanks again.
the truth will out…………..maybe
St Martin’s Bhoy says:
12 January, 2012 at 14:25
row z \o/ (O) Mississippi Burnin Nearer Home says:
12 January, 2012 at 13:59
In a room a few weeks hence
Celtic SPL representative:
” …. and a second which involves a 25 point deduction for next season and a place in division 3 of football.”
In fact, the SPL should not discuss/decide where any teams go other than into the SPL.
I’m coming in late to this article having been out all day. But …
I just can’t see NewCo agreeing to such stringent conditions being attached to its entry to the SPL. 15 points per season for 12 years may seem fair to us but if it were me I would rather start at the bottom and get promoted up the structure.
This is a whole new position that the league would find itself in, both in admitting a club straight to the top tier and in allowing a NewCo in. SO in a sense I guess it can impose any conditions it likes. But I wonder whether they would stand up legally, as NewCo would be an entirely new company with no structural links to the one that actually broke the rules.
Of course if the tactic is to make direct admission to the SPL look so unappealing to NewCo that it never happens then I totally agree!
In a fair and balanced world, Rangers Newco would have to compete with any other interested clubs to enter into Div 3
I believe that this is the Celtic boards default position. Celtic however do not have matters entirely in their own hands.
In the event that the other SPL clubs decide to vote Rangers Newco straight into the SPL, then surely it cannot be without significant penalty.
TBB is correct in the sense that he cites sporting competition being affected, however it was seriously affected by Rangers questionable, and soon to be proved illegal policies , over a 12 year stretch.
Like the Celtic board, I am of the opinion a Div 3 start is appropriate. I have a fear that , regardless of the reasons, it will be difficult to achieve. Hibs are probably the best bet to vote with integrity, as they have invested very heavily in a terrific stadium and training complex at the expense of the playing squad, and are in better financial health than most other SPL clubs.
Which takes us back to compromise. Letting a Newco play in the SPL without serious penalty is rewarding them for cheating.
Do we really want to reward them for cheating, for deceiving the football authorities.
There are only 2 choices in my view, Div 3 or years of a heavy multi year penalty. If the former can’t be achieved , then the latter must be
livibhoy,
you’ll have those rule changes at hand then, I have doubts about that so you’ll have to convince me.
canalamar
A seat beside Dallas at the next home game, such is their brazened effrontery.
Another massive own goal, in an entire existence of own goals.
Kojo, I wasn’t actually having a political go, I think we all know where you stand.
Not sure I agree entirely with you on helping people, but each to their own.
Those of us of a certain vintage, who have the “young buck, change the world” rebel chip deactivated over the years, realise that the reality here is that a compromise will be found, Celtic won’t go to another league and Newco will indeed be in the SPL. (I personally want to see Celtic take it to the wire on resignation so they don’t get away with any minimum punishment they are trying to present at the moment). I was asking what would you accept?
For me, its similar to Paul’s suggestion but i would also want some kind of reparation to the public purse from the Newco company.
Neil canamalar Lennon hunskelper extrordinaire says:
12 January, 2012 at 15:34
I sure don’t have the rule changes at hand. I repeat what I said earlier. If the Celtic & Rangers could move they would have done it years ago.
Someone with more knowledge than me will correct me if I’m wrong. Happy to acknowledge if I am.
LB
From RTC;
← Rangers 2011 Financial Results: What Mr. Whyte has not told you“Sources close to Whyte” in economical with truth shocker! →UEFA License: Rangers to appeal “wee bill”
02/12/2011 297 Comments
i
23 Votes
In the current storm over whether the SFA should have granted Rangers a UEFA license for this season (and possibly denied Celtic a chance at qualifying for the Champions’ League), sources within Ibrox have confirmed that Rangers are planning to file a late appeal of the “wee tax case” bill related to the Discounted Options Plan.
This bill and the related interest- amounting to £2.8m- had been agreed by the club. Rangers had even paid £500k previously to prevent court action. (The bill for penalties related to this scam had not been agreed and can be seen as a separate matter for now).
Normally a company has 30 days to appeal a tax assessment. We know that that any appeal now is very late. The question is: why appeal now?
It would certainly serve to provide a tissue for their friends in the media to hide behind. Stories can be planted with the usual suspects that “the bill is being appealed so it does not count”.
However, the point at issue here is the status of this bill on 31 March. I do not know the answer, but it should be a simple question with a simple answer: was this bill overdue on that date?
So, if Newco is not allowed entry to the SPL, they will cut off credit to those clubs who are pondering a no vote.
As a very wise and well-informed blogmeister might say: Hhhhhhmmmmmmm……..
The Bank of Scotland’s handling of the Dundee Utd overdraft appears to have been inexpert. I would anticipate that any club faced with the sultimatum Paul 67 describes will point to the fact that it is not revenues from ticket sales but players transfer fees which are most likely to bring down the overall deb of the club. This also presupposes that the purported threat from the bank does not breach the agreement with the club failing which the club may be able to obtain relief by way of court action. The whole scenario has a disinct whiff of hypothesis rather than fact ,and for that reason I am not at all convinced of it. Maybe if Paul puts some meat on the bones I may change my view.
There are numerous problems ahead of Newco to become players in the SPL for season 2012 to 2013. I posted about some of these on Tuesday. It is not clear to me from the existing articles and rules how exactly Newco are expecting to gain entry. I am not at all certain how a simple vote on the matter, by either the SPL board or all its members, will determine the issue. As far as I can see, such a path is not available to Newco, and a much more convoluted approach will be required.
As a further example of the difficulties which lie ahead, I have been looking at Rule 2.6. this states that the club must make application in writing to the SPL board for approval to use their ground for the coming season. Such approval must be registered no later that 31 March 2012 for present purposes. This approval is not required if the club owns the ground directly or through a holding company (Rule A 2.5.3.1). Judging by the posts I have read over the last few months on CQN, I am sceptical that Newco will have title to Ibrox either by itself or through a subsidiary. If Rule A 2.5.3.1 is not satisfied, how can Newco have the ground registered in time for the new season? It cannot come into existence prior to Oldco ceasing to exist. Therefore, and to be on the safe side, whatever happens to the ground, it cannot be disposed of to anyone, including C Whyte, or there is a risk that Newco will not be playing at Ibrox in the coming season. That would significantly impact Newco’s financial stability and might make the whole exercise pointless.
I should add that I consider the rules and articles to be less than clear and subject to much interpretation in order that they make some coherent sense. Nevertheless, it is unclear how Newco expect to stroll in to the SPL for next season as things stand. In many ways I am heartened to hear of suggestions, such as the one made recently to our esteemed blog host, that a vote by the board for Newco to be admitted to the SPL is considered to be the way to the stars for Newco. Whoever said that, or told that person to say it, has not considered the articles and rules carefully. The more haphazard the approach, the better the chances are that Newco will fall at the first hurdle.
We shall see.
Ghuys
All this talk about Newco, are we not setting ourselves up here for a big fall? Do we really think point deductions, fines, banned from Europe, thrown out the SPL etc is going to happen to the mighty rangers? Really? Can’t see it, it’s Scotland we live in, there’s previous when it comes to ‘the peepil’ looking after their own, and we all know it. It’s nice speculation but that’s it, come the day of reckoning would not bet against them having big smug beaming grins on their big ugly coupons, unless we do the business and put them in their place on the park, that’s what I’m banking on. The next time Scotland’s football officials come down hard on rangers will be the first time – ever.
Gordon_J backing Neil Lennon says:
12 January, 2012 at 15:32
’15 points per season for 12 years may seem fair to us but if it were me I would rather start at the bottom and get promoted up the structure.’
I agree. That would be preferable for all. One would hope that before a NewCo is formed, a full pyramid league structure is created.
Orc2012 FC – Runners up of the inaugural Glasgow South West Saturday Welfare League
:-)
DubaiBhoy (nee LondonBhoy) says:
12 January, 2012 at 14:41
“If Rangers get straight back into the league with minimal penalty then what’s to stop every other debt laden club from doing the same.”
The door will be bolted after Reformation Ragers have been admitted.
Having learned the lessons of the situation that arose with Ragers, the authorities would feel duty bound to rewrite rules to ensure that there could be no repeat.
hoopeddreams says:
12 January, 2012 at 15:37
All businesses, indeed customers, with bank debt/overdraft facilities have review periods, whether monthly, quarterly or annually, where the lender retains the right to cancel such agreements at a whim.
leftclicktic says:
12 January, 2012 at 15:06
Thanks !!!
Hail Hail
The idea that newco would be admitted straight into the SPL infuriates me like the rest of you. Bear in mind that if it is through a vote that they are accepted into the league then it has been done by DEMOCRATIC means. Fair? Aye but naw. We know how self serving the boards of the other clubs are – remember “The Rebel 10”? The would be voted in democratically for morally reprehensible reasons.
Part of me would be happy with them just losing an claim to their sordid history and their precious 5 stars above the badge. But another part of me wants to see them competitively crippled for a considerable period of time. If that means having to start in Division 3 is the only way of seeing this happen, then that is my prefered option. Will it happen? Can’t see it. Will the Celtic board resign over this issue? That’s a pipe dream.