Dundee United chairman Stephen Thompson’s comments to yesterdays’ Herald are worthy of attention. During the summer, when United received a £1m bid from Rangers for David Goodwillie and Blackburn Rovers were hovering, Bank of Scotland, took an active part in the deliberations. Thompson told the Herald, “The bank wanted me to take £1.2m for him, but I said no to that. I had to stand up against the bank.”
Thompson more than doubled the money on offer for Goodwillie, allowing him to shave over £2m off their bank debt, but this exchange took place only a few months after the same bank told former Rangers chairman, Alastair Johnston, to accept the bid for the club from Motherwell born thousandaire Craig Whyte or the bank would demand same-day repayment of Rangers borrowings.
Bank of Scotland, part of Lloyds Banking Group (LBG), are significantly exposed to Scottish football and required a taxpayer bail-out two years ago, so although their interference in the running of clubs could seem overbearing, we shouldn’t be surprised at it. It’s business, and if you are employed at LBG with a responsibility to your taxpayer-shareholder, it’s necessary business.
Fortunately, Celtic are free from such interference, as are Rangers, thanks to their aforementioned benefactor, but if a liquidation event at a large club threatened income streams to the league I would be amazed if the Bank didn’t use the ‘Vote Newo FC into the SPL or repay your borrowings immediately’ line.
Stephen Thompson, who sits on the SPL board, might not have a choice on whether or not to vote a Newco FC into the SPL ahead of 30 Scottish Football League clubs, but he and his fellow board members will be able to set the tariff on any exceptional league entry to what would become a financially privileged football franchise.
12 seasons of cumulative benefit from financial mis-dealings should result in 12 seasons of penury at whatever points rate the league calculate benefit was accrued. For one scenario I have in mind, around 15 points per season sounds fair, with an expunging from the records of any trophies ‘won’ by Financial Doping.
This is measured, deliverable, is in the power of the SPL board to impose, and sets a minimum moral hazard to inhibit future mis-deeds.
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dirtymac,
Don’t get me wrong – I’d rather they started in the Glasgow South West Saturday Welfare League too!
If there is a space in the league structures then every club from the current non league structures that meets the basic entry requirements to the third division (whatever they might be) should be ahead of the NewCo in the queue for a space.
If I owned an SPL club and wanted to vote against newhuns direct entry into the SPL, and my bank threatened to pull the plug if I did, I might be tempted to let them pull the plug, clear the debts in doing do, and throw my newdons hat in with the huns for an immediate return to the SPL.
The taxman having been dumped for 50 million quid and court fees and associated costs etc in what will be a landmark ruling will not go quietly.
I reckon an estimate of around 80 million quid will have been flushed down the lavvy
THEY WILL not cooperate with a Newco company under these circumstances and most experts reckon that by June next year it will be EXPLICITLY illegal to phoenix under these circumstances.
I suggest you all do some googling
Hail Hail
Paul67
You and rangertaxcase blogger seem convinced it is a done deal Rangers NewCo get straight into the SPL and the question is around what the tariff for this entry is. And your argument appears to be that money will decide, on the basis the other clubs will lose out without Rangers.
Can you (or anyone else on here) indulge me and explain that in a little more detail, perhaps with some estimates to show why you so strongly believe this?
Because I (and many others) simply don’t see that this is a compelling argument.
SPL Clubs will lose money because:
Attendances will be around 3-10k down over a season with no Rangers fans visiting once or twice;
No Rangers MAY result in a reduction in the TV deal payments ;
Some degradation of sponsorship money if the league is deemed less attractive (not convinced – deals will be in place already, and if a club is more successful without Rangers, this may not go down).
Anything else?
SPL Clubs will gain money because:
Rangers will be replaced by another team and their fans will attend fixtures say 1-2k each per season ;
All teams will have a higher probability of attaining more positional prize money (you could argue they should expect to be one place higher than currently). The increment to 2nd place is significant;
Again, 2nd place will get a shot at CL, with an increased probability of falling into the EL. Even if they fail there is the additional TV money from the qualifying ties;
Once could expect attendances to increase where teams are genuinely competing for the 2nd, 3rd, 4th places.
It may be true that if a SPL club finishes e.g. 5th and downwards, they may be net financially disadvantaged. But I cannot see that this is clear cut to the extent all integrity has to be ignored.
And as for Celtic themselves, given the evidence of the last 20 yrs we would be almost guaranteed a shot at CL money, with EL money as a strong probability, in the years with no Rangers, EASILY outweighing any loss from no games against Rangers. If Celtic were successful, I cannot see how attendances would be much worse than today.
Further issues:
1. How can you punish a Newco – that’s nonsense surely?
2. And what can HMRC do about this – they are dismissed in your scenario?
It is simply not a compelling argument to warrant utter dismissal of “do the right thing”.
HH
TLK
dirtymac
I agree. However, it would be a high risk strategy for the bank to withdraw credit for a club, especially one which was solvent. In my experience a bank will only withdraw credit if there is an intrinsic problem with the business. Withdrawal based on the mere possibility of diminshed revenues may be speculative only.
Gordon_J backing Neil Lennon says:
12 January, 2012 at 15:45
No, I didn’t get you wrong, I was thinking you would also have them start at the very lowest point possible, which would be quite apt – is there a ‘lower than a snakes belly’ league?
But yes, every club, even current local pub league teams would have more of a sporting right to compete in the 3rd division than a currently non-existent NewCo FC.
Anyone recall the reaction to the £4m funded Dublin City FC proposal from the mid-80s?
I’ll only say this, If we (Celtic) are made to feel aggrieved by the outcome of this then, its over.
Too many posters confusing what they Want with what they truly believe…
http://Www.heartrulesheid.com
hoopeddreams says:
12 January, 2012 at 15:49
It would an implied threat, a lever if you will, used to gain their favoured result.
Conversely, such a move could back-fire, with fans of other clubs calling it a day, both with football and as customers with such banking institutions (the latter being highly unlikely – you’re more likely to get divorced than change your bank apparently)
medtim,
are you thinking the club should be sueing the sfa for lost revenues ???
Rt rev David Hay.
Truly hilarious.
Just back from a bit of practice and I was gash.
brimmer
Awe_Naw_No_Annoni_Oan_Anaw_Noo says:
12 January, 2012 at 15:46
I was actually wondering what the taxman’s take on, say, BorkBorkFC playing out of Ibrox Stadium, presumably in blue shirts on a Saturday in the SPL next year or so would be.
Do you think, irrespective of the name used, they would pursue it as a tax-dodge phoenix company?
How much fun would it be to see OrcFC go bust, not once, but twice?
leftclicktic says:
12 January, 2012 at 15:06
Thank you
brimmer
Awe_Naw…,
I’m hoping its June this year and no next year as stated ??
One thing is for sure; we are all debating what might/should happen to newco before the majority of currants have fully appreciated what is about to happen to their current (currant) club. This is good, this is good.
While were on the subject of the UEFA license have we all signed the petition at http://www.askthesfa.com ?
brimmer
;-)
never mind you enjoyed a nice walk in the sunshine
bet you never thought youd gat that practice in
wae that wind out there last night
dirtymac @ 15.54
Your example shows how problematic this might become for the bank.
I doubt if they will be terribly frightened by a proposed bhoycott. However, if they appear to be favouring Newco for reasons which have no clear financial basis, their own credibility would be called into question. And they have lost enough credibility recently without losing any more.
The Oldco Huns will become the Newco Huns purely to dodge paying their £50m-ish back taxes.
If the Newco accept any sort of points deduction in relation to the actions of the Oldco then that is them legally admitting that they are responsible for the Oldco. This would leave them open to HMRC pursuing them, legitimately, for the outstanding £50m-ish back taxes. (I’m sure RTC has stated that HMRC has previously pursued phoenix companies for this ruse – more avid RTC followers can confirm?).
So, given my thinking is correct (a big ask I know), Newco Huns would be getting a points deduction for a fast-tracked place in the SPL. That’s like saying that any football team are allowed straight into the SPL with a points deduction as long as they have a big enough fan base and a decent stadium!
The only logical, fair and sensible answer is for Newco Huns to start in the 3rd Division.
tomtheleedstim 12 January, 2012 at 15:46:
It’s a myth that the newco’s will start with no debt.
It costs a hell of a lot of money to buy a club, players, etc and all that debt will be put on the clubs. Guestimates for the purchase of rangers assets for the phoenix are over £20 million.
Add to that three years without European football, a loss of income due to disgruntled fans, lawyers fees, up front VAT and PAYE imposed by HMRC as well as nobody doing business with you unless you pay up front.
They better hope their new owner has a good credit line.
dirtymac
Of course they will.
It starts of with delaying the issue of a VAT number.
I reckon that by the time the legislation comes in to ABSOLUTELY prohibit “phoenixing” for exactly that reason, that Hun FC have already ran out of time.
Recently a company owning 1.5m did exactly this and it took them 5 months to be issued with a VAT number and they only got the VAT number having agreed to pay 6 months worth of VAT in advance.
What most fold fail to understand that this is all part of an assault of dodgy dealings by the treasury to claw back much needed funds in these days of Austerity.
Do the games administrators in Scotland fail to realise this ?
If Hun FC showed EVERYONE the way to avoid paying these taxes that has taken so long then it makes the treasury look like aN donkey
It may well be that the SPL are desperate to do this before it becomes legislation .. if they do I would expect a special hefty tax on any clubs that play to say more than 1000 fans to be introduced in the next budget.
WHAT WE ARE WITNESSING HERE IS OLD FIRM FANTASY THINKING
Hail Hail
A worthwhile repost from this morning. This wee girl needs our help.
——————————-
Brogan Rogan Trevino and Hogan supports Kano 1000 says:
11 January, 2012 at 08:29
Good Morning,
From a clear new day in central Scotland.
You know, I am really a pretty stupid man! Well maybe stupid is not exactly the right word– dumb might be appropriate — or blind– or daft or whatever.
Last night, I made one of my usual nonsensical posts and started it with a question– what would your dream job be?
Later, I got the chance to read back and as sometimes happens CQN ( or really my fellow Celtic fans on CQN )give you a right good and well deserved kick up the backside. In short, I was reminded that I already have the “Dream” job– and so do many of you!
The Job Title?
Being dad! or mum! It doesn’t matter either way!
The news from Knoxy about Oscar’s progress just blows all the other mince about things down Govan way and all that stuff out of the water.
This morning, I have woken up to a text that has asked me to do something for someone I have never met, but the text was specifically sent to me because the sender knows that I post reasonably regularly on this site.
It was also sent in the full knowledge of the reach of this site and the nature of those who read the posts.
Below, I attach a link to a just giving site. It is for a site related to a wee girl called Vanessa.
http://www.justgiving.com/vanessa-appeal
Vanessa, has undergone a long course of Chemotherapy and other treatment in relation to a rare cancerous condition. It had been thought that this was successful.
Alas you will see from the site that December brought a relapse and now all hope rests with pioneering treatment that can only be concluded in the USA. Whilst there may be some help with this, in the main the necessary money will have to be privately raised. In part the sums raised will be used for Vanessa’a treatment, but part will also be used to hopefully further the research which will help make this condition a thing of the past and alleviate the suffering of other children and their families.
So this is an appeal for your money. I realise that money is not easily come by, but even as little as a pound can make all the difference. This site apparently gets something like 640,000 unique hits. £1 from each would more than achieve the target.
In the space of a few hours last night over £10,000 was raised. But time as much as money is of the essence here so if anyone can do anything at all it will be greatly appreciated.
As I say, I have been asked to write this precisely because someone knows I post on CQN, and it is recognised that it is precisely this type of thing that the Celtic family are good at and have at their core.
I appreciate that there are many other causes to fund and be considered and I respect that totally.
However if you can give something it may mean the difference between a wee girl living and not.
Christy Moore sings a line that is stuck in my head:
” When you look into a Child’s face, you are seeing all the human race
Of all the possibilities there, of what a child can do………”
If you can give that would be great, if not thankyou for taking the time and trouble to read this.
Remember too to give blood for Oscar and, that for the rest of us, each and every day presents just another opportunity.
I will send this out by twitter as well and if you have a twitter account then please retweet.
Many many thanks for your time and all the best in Celtic.
Brogan
********************
Robbie Keane signs on loan to Villa. That’ll stop screeds of should we/shouldn’t we over the next 3 weeks
share
Awe_Naw_No_Annoni_Oan_Anaw_Noo says:
12 January, 2012 at 10:20
Yo ho ho, off we go
What do you know, it’s nine in a row
Bye bye Rangers
Celtic’s on the ball again, on the way to make it ten
Bye bye Rangers
here’s wan fae 1967 tae probably the same tune:
“oul scot symon’s got a sore heid
just because of Sammy Reid
bye bye baxter”
I have an idea, why don’t the SPL clubs put the license up for sale and if New Co want to come back into the SPL they will have to suffer and all the other clubs will be better off, then it may make it less attractive for them, and div 3 is it for them. Born67
The Lizard King at 15:47
I agree. I would hope Celtic (and others) will have worked out projections based on all likely scenarios so that they can vote in the most informed way. In these projections, one thing Celtic will have to take into account is the number of supporters who might decide not to support the club (financially anyway) if they vote in a certain way.
Another thing you forgot to mention is that those clubs near the bottom of the league and in threat of relegation will be given a stay of execution should Rangers not be re-admitted to SPL. Depending on the timing of any vote, there could be 2 or 3 teams under real threat, including Hibs, and I’m sure none would want to see their place in the SPL go to a new entity just because it shares a similar name to an old entity.
Mort
The Honest Mistake loves being first says:
12 January, 2012 at 16:05
I hope you are right but I thought that the floating charge Whyte has means that the receiver will act on Whyte’s behalf only. So, for example, if the assets are valued at say £20m and the debt to Whyte is valued at say £20m then he gets the assets to cover his debts.
I do know what you mean about the running costs though. Three years out of Europe and all vat and paye up front will take some covering, particularly when the crowds will drop as they inevitably will.
Any way you look at it, the newhuns with their reduced circumstances are screwed for a few years to come.
Neil canamalar Lennon hunskelper extrordinaire says:
12 January, 2012 at 15:58
pretty sure it is June 2012
Hail Hail
How / who would finance the newco ?
Points deduction
No Cl money
Possibly no ground
Players sold off
What if they found themselves in a relegation position
at the end of season 2012/13 ?
Would they be saved from the drop to save guard Tv monies,
and for the good of-Blah-di-Blah Scottish football?
Just asking like
Tontine Tim says:
12 January, 2012 at 16:10
I love all these old songs.
So much more imaginative and intoxicating than the “there only one song that we know … one song that we know .. there´s only one song that we know”
Hail Hail
rt rev david hay says:
12 January, 2012 at 16:03
3 shanks, and with a 6 iron not a wedge which is not good. Was semi decent in last 10mins but if ma big mate who is off 20 is even half decent tomorrow I fear a doin is in order.
brimmer
Brogan Rogan Trevino and Hogan supports Kano 1000 says:
12 January, 2012 at 01:15
Good morning,
But Celtic was his real love and so it was there our smiler spent the majority of his career. He stayed roughly the same length of time as Henrik and in that time made 191 appearances ( compared to Henrik’s 221 )– although I stress that he did not always get a game. During those games he scored an impressive 82 goals- many of which were extermely memorable as they were left foot thunderbolts.
Many will by now have guessed that the wee smiley man was Neilly Mochan.
*one of personal favourites as a bhoy and one of my mother’s tae as he would play anywhere for the leather belts.
I was at the game when he reverted back tae centre and scored a nap hand aginst the the buddies, a nemisis of ours at that time, in a second replay. The Celtic end was bouncing tae “when the saints go marching out”.
I met him one day outside CP on a dreich January day, he stopped to allow us tae take his photie. A year or so later he was over and I asked him tae autograph the photie for my brother-in-law, he asked his name and after signing it I asked if he could put 7-1 on it. He just smiled.
BTW he won 3 winners medals with us before he first appeared at CP.
Is Clean Competition too much to ask?
Really.
Well run clubs turning out well trained players to compete for the prizes on equal terms.
If and when they lose the big case I expect there to be a lot of rhetoric about Rangers being 140 years old, the period of default being so short in that context, that it was all David Murray’s fault, just one man in a Club that has gazillions of dignified peepil and that he should carry the can, not Rangers blah blah blah. I expect wee Chick to be the first standard bearer of this tosh.
The Lizard King says:
12 January, 2012 at 15:47
I agree this is worth fleshing out, and I agree with the figures you put up
Re newco
If the result of going bust is that any newco would have to apply at the bottom level then that is what should happen .NO EXCUSES ,NO DEBATES .
The LL and the peepil will push the Scottish football will collapse tale ,Garbage Scottish football will go on and will probably get bloody better to watch .Money is killing the game in all leagues the bubble has to burst and reality has to kick in .
If it were Celtic that were in the dock .I as a football fan would expect us to except the appropriate punishment and get on with it .I would just be going to CP to watch Celtic play Clyde and the rest till we worked our way up the leagues .While I am at it we should have any titles won whilst cheating rescinded and the SFA/SPL could do what they liked with them .
Any title won by anything other than fair means is not a title worth celebrating .
No one is asking for Ragers to be punished ,we are only asking that they get treated like any other Scottish club .
forget the finances .
forget the Scottish football will die .
forget Celtic need ragers .
forget all the other teams need ragers .
Play to the rules or what the hell is the point of any other club playing at all .
hail hail
The Battered Bunnet says:
12 January, 2012 at 16:20
SPOT ON .
hail hail
Just out of curiosity has anyone been quoted as talking about “The Old Firm’s Tax Case” ?
I remember hearing about Berwick Rangers beating the Old Firm in 1967 and the Old Firm’s sectarian problem. So its not all that preposterous a notion.
Mort
And I expected you would be the man with the figures at your fingure tips!!!
HH
TLK