One of today’s newspapers did its very best to run with a one’s as bad as the other’ suggestion, saying : “Yes, both sides have justifiable grievances. Celtic were rightly outraged at the state their stadium was left in. Likewise, the Rangers board were understandably disgusted at those mock executions of blow-up dolls draped in red, white and blue scarves.”
This is wholly misrepresenting the situation. Celtic were rightly outraged at the blow-up dolls, criticised the actions at the time while endorsing the behaviour of the fabled “vast majority”. Celtic don’t have a problem with self-analysis; they’ve done it often enough in recent seasons in the face of Uefa fines.
The blow-up doll incident, and the faux defence of it, which Celtic didn’t offer, has nothing whatsoever to do with who pays for tens of thousands of pounds worth of vandalism carried out by visiting fans at Celtic Park. You can make your own suggestions as to why it was raised in connection with the subject.
The article goes on to offer up evidence of the bigger story, which it somehow manages to miss.
“Rangers (sic.) believe they have every right to take the hump because Celtic have chosen to ignore years of protocol – an unwritten rule which has stood the test of time, whereby each club pays for damage done to its own stadium by opposing fans on derby day.”
Maybe, maybe not, but here’s the thing, whatever unwritten rules Celtic and Rangers observed died in 2012.
You want unwritten rules to persist? Pay your taxes, register your players correctly, make full and honest submissions to HMRC inquiries instead of shredding correspondence. Play by the rules everyone else has to play by.
Cheat, lie, hide and shred and you have no defence in written rules, never mind unwritten objects of your imagination. This reality should now be writ large for all to understand.
After the 1909 Scottish Cup final between Celtic and Rangers ended suspiciously in a draw, one astute observer noted that the clubs were acting in concert, like an Old Firm, in order to generate gate receipts from a replay.
With the permission of Oldco’s administrators, Newco were able to change their name to “Rangers”, but that act of an administrator cut no ice at Celtic Park, or most other Scottish grounds.
There is no Old Firm, it died in 2012. Celtic don’t use the phrase, they don’t observe unwritten rules they had in place with Rangers, they don’t want their stadium trashed, they don’t want to install “prison grade” facilities for visiting fans (this is what’s now required in Scotland in 2017, good grief!), they would happily never host the club again.
If you think all that happened in 2012 was a “relegation” (which you’d earlier reported was impossible), this might be news to you. It was more than this; it was the end of the old ways – and good riddance to them.
Celtic will stand of fall on our own merits. We will observe the laws and rules of the land, the tax authorities, the Association, Uefa and Fifa (even if it means criticising our own fans). If you’re looking for unwritten favours after vandalising our property: tough.
And for those who continually see O.F. conspiracies, none of them have ever been able to tell me a business case for Celtic to put life into that concept. It’s not good for business, no matter what the wildest conspiracy theorist might tell you. Anyone who tells you it is needs to take a look at himself.
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Braw
I will, muchas gracious.
HH
Sleep well Timland, up early.
KTF
Awe Naw
Bite the bullet and assure Paul of your future good conduct :-)
HH
There are a number of apparently contradictory factors involved in assessing Celtic’s attitude to TRFC and separating them might provide a clearer idea of the strength of each argument.
Before even going there anyone prepared to look at the factors should also be prepared to recognise that change is constant and what may have been true a few years ago no longer applies.
Three factors being covered are the business case for wanting to keep the Old Firm model alive, DDs view of TRFC and perceptions of Res12.
On the business case any decision to invest must recognise the risk of that investment not materialising and the greatest risk outside Celtic’s control is TRFC, so the last thing you want is a team strong enough to put any investment at risk emerging from Ibrox.
Let’s say it cost Celtic the reported £10m not to have a Rangers in the top tier.
That goes in the debit column.
But let’s say the risk of not qualifying because of that presence over say 3 years is a loss of £30m a year. Over 3 years we gain £30m but risk losing up to £90m. Ok it might only be 1 in 3 or 2 in three we dont qualify because of TRFC but we get a helluva more income from the CL than from TRFC and the lesser TRFC are, the greater the potential reward and the less the risk to any investment.
Then there is a demand and cost to match TRFC success but the weaker they are the less needs to be spent on wages to address the risk.
Thus the best scenario for providing a strong enough income stream to provide the kind of players we will turn up to watch, not just because they will win, but because of the kind of football being played, is more or less the one which is now unfolding.
Ok you can then ice the cake using echoes of the past, particularly if it’s a regular drubbing of the old foe they see themselves as, but I would take the risk to CL income as being a stronger decision factor rather than the cake icing as being the more important with regard to their value to Celtic.
There might be other reasons for thinking the old foe icing is more important than the CL cake but I’m not persuaded by that argument.
On DD it depends on what is used to support the view he wants the icing.
The business case itself to a hard headed business man should be enough, but based on the various narratives it is quite conceivable that the view that Ernie Lynch puts forward was true then but is no longer .
Two reasons to think that.
1. The crass behaviour by certain Ibrox Board members at the semi final which reached social media.
2. That the full extent of the past skullduggery and strength of feeling behind it (manifested in Res12) was only realised by DD around March last year.
It is quite possible that on a personal level he realised then that his club was having the pish ripped out of it in and before 2011 and whilst not the only reason for the sea change over the summer, it means if both narratives are true, DD’s view has changed. On both an emotional and financial basis there is good reason to think so.
So the argument for a desire for return of the OF model on those two grounds is less than persuasive to me.
However then you get the contradictory messages coming from the club’s silence from 2012 on matters Sevco/TRFC, whatever.
Scottish football, not just Celtic, mishandled this from the off. The very idea of Rangers being allowed back into the SPL top tier should never have got near a vote. There was no SPL club in a position to operate a team to vote out, just some administrators holding a share that should have been removed if they could not guarantee continuity as the same business by meeting all debts.
But even if Celtic had taken that view (and I have no idea who decided keeping RFC alive was the way to go) Celtic only had one vote if that policy itself went to a vote, so Celtic could not stop the other clubs embarking on the route they did, even had Celtic wanted to.
What they could do was to do their best to get other SPL clubs onside to reject a top tier entry and given other supporters felt like us then that is what happened. Celtic pushed the sporting integrity line to prevent top tier entry for TRFC (possibly after putting out feelers) using Platini’s Christmas message and CQN to get that message over.
Imagine if from the outset the game had said RFC are gonners. We will encourage their supporters to form a new clu and allow them to start again in SFL (where they ended up anyway).
What are the chances of that view holding sway and who was responsible for directing the SFA/SPL down the top tier track? That was an insult to supporters intelligence from the off.
Given the financial advantage now manifesting itself (which would have been even greater had RD been up to CL standard) why exactly would Celtic want Scottish football to return to a model that had ill served Celtic since 2000, costing us to take on mounting debt from 2000 to 2004 when MON arrived to counter ebt fuelled Advocatt?
So I suggest there has to be some measure of recognising Celtic’s powerlessness in 2012 in certain aspects of the 5 Way.
Perhaps it was the silence policy in action even then and thus an opportunity to remove the toxicity from Scottish football and society was lost?
No personally I’d drop the “perhaps”, it was a time for statesmanlike leadership but none appeared from government, football or civil.
However what has emerged from the 5 Way is a festering wound because the toxicity is still there, but on the basis that change is constant that does not mean it always will be.
The subject of today’s blog is a manifestation of that toxicity and 2017 will present Celtic with other opportunities to tackle it and remove the contradiction that causes division and quite a bit of heartache for the supporters who do not or cannot (no judgements here) divorce football from their sense of morality/ethics.
Hopefully that heartache goes wider than just Celtic supporters to all who care about football as a sport rather than a more acceptable way of conducting tribal warfare.
So glad I have been busy,and just caught up with the blog,or else I would have been barred.
Some alleged fans,just cannot enjoy watching our team.It is anathema to them.Me,I love watching this team and cant wait for Sunday.I will also add,that I cant wait for March,when I hope we hump the Monkeys by another 5.If that upsets some of our “Posters on a mission”as I have said before,kiss my suntanned ass.
Auldheid at 10.00pm.
That’s far too rational and sensible to be believed by those that have an alternative view. They’ll just quote the words of DD, even if he was just being diplomatic and avoiding traps. Bit too subtle for some.
Awe naw
Come back mucker
HH
Auldheid
I am confused by aspects of your 10 pm post.
I think that if Celtic wanted a bigger say and a greater chance to influence other clubs on Rangers fate in 2012, then they should have done precisely what you said they should not i.e.- Keep the new club in the SPL/SPFL.
The minute they let Sevco Rangers slip into the grasp of Jim Ballantyne et al to go on their “journey” with a bunch of semi-pro teams desperate for their revenue and “glamour”, the dynamic of decision making was changed.
The SPL/SPFL was filled by clubs who had been very directly wronged by the cheating of old Rangers. They had every right to be resentful and vengeful and they were all actively talking of title and trophy stripping “if Rangers were found guilty by the courts and/or LNS”. At that stage, Charlie Green would have happily accepted the threat of title stripping in exchange for still being able to compete at the top table.
However, once in with desperate Championship and League One and Two clubs, we had chairmen and treasurers desperate to get their impoverished hands on the filthy lucre available from traveling Ibrox hordes. Turnbull Hutton, apart, who stuck to the propriety of their constitution was faced by a voting audience of men desperate to offer them anything to get them into their club (DIv 2/ Div 1 and the Championship) because they would get Rangers money in return.
With a deadline looming for the Brechin game and with two clubs simultaneously existing, Charlie Bighands saw his chance and said, “give us a license or you lose all this filthy lucre! our bears can bring”
That was the first time that Charlie started to rant about the injustice of title stripping and punishments. Up to then, he would have given in on all of this to present himself as the saviour who had got the new version of Rangers to play still in the Scottish Premiership. He would have told the bears to just forget what the Premiership record book says, whether it said Gers had no past history or a severely reduced title haul with several asterisked titles and trophies removed, we all know in our hearts that it is the same Rangers- pay it no mind.”
Instead we let them slip into the protective hands of Jim Balantyne et al, “closet” Rangers men willing to give them anything they wanted.
The premiership were a closed shop, able to implement their own rules and with little need to be beholden to the clubs in other divisions. Those clubs could have decided on Rangers fate but we washed our hands of that responsibility and, like Pontius Pilate, trusted to the judgement of the Ballantyne mob.
I say we would have had more control keeping them within the Premiership on a probationer license, waiting to see how they reacted to formal judgement of the other, largely Premiership, clubs who had been robbed of so much.
Celtic, and all other SPL/SPFL clubs abdicated their duty, I’d say.
Shocked to read about young Josh Thompsons horrific injury. Be strong Josh you are in the thots and prayers of the Celtic family!! H H
SFTB 10.30
Great post.
TT
Gooood Evening CQN
Paul67, I’m in the not accepting that clique
Celtic have had 2 very clear open goals to speak out and let us fans know their position
They could have welcomed Sevco into the league back in 2012
And could then have welcomed them on their first visit to our stadium last year.
Can you tell us why Celtic gave them 8000 tickets ?
Remember under Ronny, when our boards strategy was emptying the stadium ( a huge huge part of this alleged £10m loss in having a defunct club in the SPFL) Aberdeen asked for extra tickets over and above the SPFL limit of 5% of stadium capacity for visiting fans, our Club said No
I now want our club to make a very clear stand
Give this new club the 5% max capacity limit of tickets for next game ( I will again leave my seat empty for this) – and sell. The extra tickets back to those Celtic fans who loose out for this clubs visit
Look after Celtic first – and not those who come to abuse our ground and our fans
Simple way to make aclear statement we do not recognise them
Hail Hail
AULDHEID on 16TH JANUARY 2017 10:00 PM
The subject of today’s blog is a manifestation of that toxicity and 2017 will present Celtic with other opportunities to tackle it and remove the contradiction that causes division and quite a bit of heartache for the supporters who do not or cannot (no judgements here) divorce football from their sense of morality/ethics.
=====================================================================
And THEIR sense of morality / ethics they impose on their fellow Celtic supporters and on Celtic F.C.
The epitome of ” holier than thou ” arrogance and selfishness.
Thanks, Auldheid , for a clear outline of the issues.
Best country song ever by the best country singer ever!!!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VqSZSEHVqZA
And for those who continually see O.F. conspiracies, none of them have ever been able to tell me a business case for Celtic to put life into that concept. It’s not good for business, no matter what the wildest conspiracy theorist might tell you. Anyone who tells you it is needs to take a look at himself.
In my naivete, I always thought that the legendary millions THEIR absence was costing the game was a goof business case.
We have given them the ammunition to pump there gums , about closing the gap . Tavernia . Sp. McKay . Warbo , Halliday et al . Had we converted our vast amount of chances each time we played them ,and played them off the park , then they would be back under the blankets in the darkened room . That goes for the laptop loyal as well .
JUDE2005 IS NEIL LENNON \O/ on 16TH JANUARY 2017 10:51 PM
Best country song ever by the best country singer ever!!!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VqSZSEHVqZA
==========================================================
No and yes.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=68cbjlLFl4U
CROFTCELT on 16TH JANUARY 2017 10:23 PM
Auldheid at 10.00pm.
That’s far too rational and sensible to be believed by those that have an alternative view. They’ll just quote the words of DD, even if he was just being diplomatic and avoiding traps. Bit too subtle for some.
How much better had he diplomatically said nothing.
JIMTIM on 16TH JANUARY 2017 10:59 PM
We have given them the ammunition to pump there gums , about closing the gap . Tavernia . Sp. McKay . Warbo , Halliday et al . Had we converted our vast amount of chances each time we played them ,and played them off the park , then they would be back under the blankets in the darkened room . That goes for the laptop loyal as well
Let us get this straight.
The last thing Celtic want is THEM dead and buried.
MACJAYS
Gr8t song mrs Judes party piece.
A banner was held in section 111 at the start of the Ross County match in April, the first match after the Scottish Cup SF defeat. Cant remember the exact words, something like ‘Empty Dreams, Empty Stands, Empty Jerseys, Desmond and Lawwell’s Legacy’. Who knows what kind of effect it had? I can’t imagine DD enjoying having his name drawn into the blame game. That allied to the previous weeks defeat must have been a big wake up call. Or maybe it was always the plan to step things up when the Newco made the top League.
THETIMREAPER on 16TH JANUARY 2017 11:09 PM
A banner was held in section 111 at the start of the Ross County match in April, the first match after the Scottish Cup SF defeat. Cant remember the exact words, something like ‘Empty Dreams, Empty Stands, Empty Jerseys, Desmond and Lawwell’s Legacy’. Who knows what kind of effect it had? I can’t imagine DD enjoying having his name drawn into the blame game. That allied to the previous weeks defeat must have been a big wake up call. Or maybe it was always the plan to step things up when the Newco made the top League.
There is also the belief that DD first hand witnessed THEM, not just THEIR woggery, but THEIR gentlemen at THEIR vilest at the end of the SC semi.
Good Evening.
Here’s my take on that Daily Record piece which Paul mentions. [NB May include piss-taking…]
https://theclumpany.wordpress.com/2017/01/16/the-unwritten-rules/
AULDHEID @ 10:00 PM,
Good, well thought out post.
Many well made points. Especially on Celtic’s financial model.
On Celtic’s silence I’d say a few things.
The rules and protocols of Football dictate that It is Associations and Leagues that make the rules and take decisions not individual Football Clubs.
Sure this failed dramatically in Scotland and it was a sad indictment but as you say, it was down to the Clubs as a collective to right this wrong – the fact that it was Supporter pressure and not Club Leaders who barred NewCo from starting in the top tier is another sad indictment of our Scottish Football institutions.
Now you could argue that Celtic being the biggest Club and the Club who were most hurt by the Rangers dishonesty, had a right or even an obligation to break away and speak out.
It’s not the way I see it, the Scottish Football Establishment and the SMSM would loved to have made this an Old Firm story, they would love to have pulled us in, made it a Spat. They would have shown us as vindictive and petty.
For me the Celtic Board played a blinder in not making this an OF omnishambles.
The other but related point I’d make, concerns today’s article – oft said by my Father was…
“Actions speak louder than words.”
What the Celtic Board done, was show by it’s actions of holding back 35K from NewCo that…
– The OF protocols do not apply
– We will not tolerate our property being vandalised
– We are more than capable of standing up to you and your cabal.
Even with few words and totally justified actions, we see now, just as we saw when PL made his Rory Bremner remark, Celtic being dragged into a unseemly, ones as bad as the other spat.
No we must Pursue our individual goals as a Club and continue to dominate Scottish Football and make NewCo an irrelevance to us.
Hail Hail
Criticism of how the board have dealt with the demise of rangers is entirely valid, the board could have been more vocal in combating the survival myth etc, that they haven’t is a mistake. They could and should be more open with supporters and shareholders regarding how they see Scottish football going forward.
All that being said describing fellow Celtic supporters as “hard of thinking”.”sheep”,”board apologists” etc when they do not agree with your “old firm” view is not on.
Just because I don’t believe Celtic deliberately lost the league to ensure the survival of the “old firm” does not make me “hard of thinking”.
JUDE2005 IS NEIL LENNON \O/ on 16TH JANUARY 2017 11:07 PM
MACJAYS
Gr8t song mrs Judes party piece.
=================================================
It was my big number in the band I played in .
Country Club. Mansionhouse Rd.
” Have a ball ” csc
Anyone who tells you that the main business case and financial M.O. of Celtic PLC since 2012 has not been anything other than “I wonder what the huns are daein?”.
Needs to take a look at himself.
Quonno. 11.05
I am on about us playing them off the park , and only winning by the odd goal , when it should have been another . 5 or 6 -1 in each game we have played them .
MACJAYS
Australia????
The business case is the bigot buck. Instead of rejoicing in them being obliterated in 2012..naw ..we want them back to gloat like killing Christians in the Collisieum. Its nothing but gloating sectarianism. We havent moved on and I thought we had.
JUDE2005 IS NEIL LENNON \O/ on 16TH JANUARY 2017 11:30 PM
Langside.
Lateish `70s.
coming on here is like playing rangers. You never know when youre gonna get a red!
AULDHEID on 16TH JANUARY 2017 10:00 PM
‘But let’s say the risk of not qualifying because of that presence over say 3 years is a loss of £30m a year. Over 3 years we gain £30m but risk losing up to £90m.’
###
So what we then do is assess the possibility of having an Old Firm model with a permanently impaired huns who would never realistically be able to challenge Celtic.
Given that there is only enough income available to Scottish football to sustain perhaps 1.3 big clubs, and given that Celtic are starting from a position of strength, and the huns from a position of not having a pot to piss in, that should be achievable for the foreseeable future.
So Celtic would enjoy the benefits of having an Old Firm set up, without any of the downside.
Would that not be in the shareholders’ best interests?
And is that not what the board should have as its main goal, rather than trying to keep faith with a few malcontent corner boys and loafers?
ernie lynch on 16th January 2017 11:37 pm
Ernie. That is exactly what is going on!
A very simple argument that even the diehard board sycophants will find problems denouncing. The question
What could have Celtic Plc done ?
As a creditor of rangers, Celtic Plc could have objected to any new company using rangers and football in the name and that would have been the end of it, that’s what.
Sometimes we don’t need to use convoluted logic or he said/she said, to justify our suspicions the simplest of action/inaction betrays a lot more than words ever will.
Though there are plenty on here that live on a diet of cognitive dissonance.
Reading back today. Mien Gott!
Did you go to the game? did you go to the game? Home or away?
Where’s your ST?
Did you buy the TV package?
Did you go to any of the CL games?
Did you go to the game? did you go to the game?
or just watch it for free on TV?
Oh aye?
What was the priests sermon aboot on sunday?
HorrorsofafarawayplaceCSC
celtic fc plc is a disgrace and corrupt, to allow the filth away with years of cheating and make no mistake the plc know what was done but dont care it makes me ashamed of celtic plc
Hibs have probably secured the Championship.
It might make financial sense for them to wait until the Summer and pick up Kris then.
http://www.footballinsider247.com/18000-week-midfielder-unlikely-leave-celtic-january-report/
Macjay
My old friend.
Can you clarify something for me?
What is my self interest?
self interest in the board wanting the OF or my self interest in not wanting that?
Looks like we are back to hunting the ‘Philosopher’s Stone’ in an attempt to interpret the Board’s actions/inactions, competence/negligence post 2012 (or probably years previously).
Maybe even the most accommodating Plc’er now accepts with Gliby and his muckers at Ibrox, the unchanged Scottish football administration, the media and just about everyone else will do everything in their power to deliver CL football at Ibrox by any means. It appears the Plc have missed the boat and have let the support down.
PL/DD gave us poor RD for two seasons and a playing staff in disarray. Winning the SPFL has been like shooting fish in a barrel and they nearly ‘blue’ that.
Sevco are now second in the SPFL, they were supposed to struggle (bottom half?) or was it run out of money?
They are unscrupulous and will stop at nothing.
A lead article suggested previously that we can expect a ‘generation of domination’, which may appease many in the support, for the time being. I only hope that prediction becomes a reality.
Heaven forbid ‘Title 55 on PL’s watch.’
HH & Nite, Glasgow bound tomorrow.
Auldheid 10pm
Celtic are not quite as powerless to make a stand against Rangers cheating and debt dumping as you make out.
How much power did Turnbull Hutton have in comparison to Peter Lawwell or Ian Bankier?
Or how about the chairman of Stranraer who bravely voted against the newco being admitted to the Scottish football league. Even though it was against his own club’s financial interests and even though it was a sure fire way to attract the ire of the klan.
Two small clubs, that do not dominate sfa committees, professional game boards, or command the financial clout of carrying a huge proportion of Scottish football’s paying customers as fans of their club.
Yet despite this, these guys said their peace and took a public and principled stand against the special treatment being extended to the newco.
And then after the sfa malfeasance that enabled the Huns to compete in Europe in 2011/12 was brought to light what did Celtic do? Stayed shtum as the heavily conflicted Campbell ogilvie was elected unopposed as sfa president in 2013.
At a time when our chief executive was a key figure on the sfa professional game board.
Celtic’s directors are not innocents abroad who have been blind to rangers ststematic cheating nor are they powerless stooges being dragged along by the wishes of st Johnstone, Kilmarnock , Ross county etc and all the other spfl clubs.
The Celtic directors have been given incontrovertible proof of rangers cheating that has cost our club millions. And yet they keep quiet in the face of the same club myth, retention of illegally won trophies, and also the small matter of many millions of pounds of CL and other prize monies we were cheated out of.
It’s all very strange.