It would be remiss of me not to acknowledge Aberdeen fans’ banner on Saturday in response to their chairman, Stewart Milne’s suggestion that fans are damaging our game with talking about the consequences of clubs being found to be cheating.
I know some people learned the lessons of 2012 but others appear to have acquired amnesia. Back in 2012 only one SPL club was of the view that Rangers should not be allowed to phoenix and gain entry to top flight football. After a considerable campaign by fans, all others, apart from Rangers themselves, and Kilmarnock, decided it would be better if existing rules were allowed to stand on the matter.
Milne was off his head making his comments. The only way to possibly pull a stroke like this would be to keep quiet about it, even then I doubt it would be achievable. Making his feelings known was only going to engage Aberdeen supporters, who will have the ultimate view on what the club do.
The issue remains in the long grass until the Supreme Court have concluded their business, but what we said in October remains valid: if Celtic stand alone, the matter will not be looked at again, if other clubs are on-board, it will be examined appropriately. It is for fans of Aberdeen, United, Hibs, Hearts, Motherwell and make their feelings known.
The Herald’s piece this morning on Newco being “handed a place in the Premiership next summer as a result of some hastily-arranged league reconstruction” was remarkable. It was absurd but also worthy of respect. “NOBODY at Rangers (sic.)” wants this, but as other clubs need for Newco’s promotion is so great, apparently this is not really implausible.
Promote them, not because they are in need, because other clubs need them.
The starting position on league reconstruction is notable. For years only Celtic and Rangers blocked the SPL from being expanded. The majority of top flight clubs live in fear of (and experienced) relegation. They want a less competitive middle to the league. When the SPFL was formed a temporary moratorium of league reconstruction was agreed. This moratorium is due to expire shortly, a window for change is about to open up.
Tracking underneath all of these debates are the financial fundamentals. Newco is not financially viable. They are not viable in the Championship and although Premiership football would give them a few millions more, it would not change the fundamentals.
The circa £17m it takes to run a club at Ibrox before you employ football staff leaves little money for football given their anticipated top-flight income. It would take years and many tens of millions of dead investment to change this, as well as Mike Ashley raising the white flag.
These facts have not been grasped yet as the consequences of the hoped for investment of tens of millions not appearing are not being considered. Dave King might invest £30m-£50m, so with a fair wind everything might be OK. On the other hand, I think even £50m is tight, and I don’t see anything like that money heading to Ibrox.
The consequences of what happened in 2012, even on these pages, have yet to be realised. The old business model is finished, it’s not coming back.
Many thanks to everyone who contributed to the Foundation Christmas Appeal bucket collection on Saturday. You see people at their very best on these occasions. If you want to know how your money will be spent have a read here.
Very last shout from CQN Bookstore for Christmas delivery, if you’re after 16:00, it’ll be after the festives’ before you get your book or DVD.
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Auldheid
Many thanks for your response last night. I still hope you win. That way we all win. Beyond Celtic too.
HH jamesgang
NegAnon2 on 22nd December 2015 9:04 am
It’s only a breach if the appropriate documentation wasn’t received.
The police (with the correct docs) can request information on any person that is suspected of committing or planning a crime, and the data holder has to release it or they will be in breach of the DPA.
I think at one point it was suggested that a fast-track process was in place, which I stated was dubious and I stand by that. Even with that I suspect that the correct docs would have been forwarded at some point.
As I said DPA breaches are very serious and the compensation is really high. I recall one job I had where we’d give customers about £700 if an envelope arrived unsealed by the machine, nothing more no actual loss of data or privacy breach beyond that. It was worth that to stop it going any further. That was at a time when a serious complaint of another nature might warrant about £100. Banking Ombudsman level claims would get maybe £350 to stop them going that far.
I really doubt that Celtic have acted illegally. Given that one of the biggest accusations is that they’re getting too corporate it would be a huge oversight,
Sorry if that first comment was a bit combative, not my intention.
KevJ
We both realise you are a wind up merchant but when you use Keevins, McNee, Provan and Brian Dempsey as your idols….dearie me
As for the great Mark McGhee……..why was he out of a job for months/years then went back to a place he had dropped without a second thought, I know some Motherwell fans who won’t go back while he is there and you think he is the answer ? I wouldn’t like to even guess what the question is
NEGANON
I’ve frequently disagreed with PAUL67’s lead articles as his opinions about the way the club is run are frequently different from mine. But to suggest that he does the bidding of the board is ludicrous.
His opinions may align with theirs often enough but Paul is far from alone in that.
As for AULDHEID,his only ‘crime’ has been to ensure that Res 12 is as watertight as possible. And that’s from someone who played dirty with him once to prise some info from him. And felt dirty doing so.
Keep on hammering the board,mate. Their faults are there for all to see. You have my respect and support for that. But not the above.
Davidopoulos
I’ve written on the topic a few times. It’s not an immediate issue, but it’s something that needs consideration well ahead of Dermot’s shareholding coming onto the market or otherwise being willed.
Latest thoughts here following a big chunk of Man City being purchased by a Chinese Investment Fund: http://www.celticquicknews.co.uk/one-for-the-zonal-detesters-playing-ashley/comment-page-11/#comment-2729598
The meeja reporting on sevco’s latest ignominious defeat on Saturday is beyond pathetic.
Good morning my friends in Celtic,
My flabber has been gasted reading back.
I always thought that Auldheid was an ordinary fan who took on a very unordinary task in chasing down Res 12 on behalf of ordinary fans. I didn’t realise that he was dining at the same table as our custodians. For a variety of reasons which has been explained many times, this task is taking much more time than was initially anticipated.
This does not diminish his and the other parties in their efforts.
Do not shoot the messenger.
Canamalar: I also appreciate your effort on this resolution. Last night we got a very detailed post explaining how our club handled signings, both from a playing and commercial side. While some of us took this onboard ,although remaining slightly septical we asked for those who totally refute this to give us some detail on why, rather than just reittering the old ” Peter Lawell is to blame for everything ” drum.
However BigBhoy never explained the very strange signing of a clearly unfit Carlton Cole thought. Who actually proposed, watched, wanted and sanctioned him.
Hail, Hail to all tims.
Neganon
I’d respectfully ‘plus 1’ Bobbio’s post of 9.24.
HH jamesgang
The Battered Bunnet
Agree that it is not an immediate issue (i.e. DD shareholding) but I think the sooner we consider the future the better. I appreciate your contributions on the topic.
Neganon
Celtic dying?
Well I suppose it would depend on your definition of Celtic.
While the Foundation continue their charitable efforts, while the Kano Foundation carry on taking children to Parkhead free of charge and while Celtic supporters continue to question and scrutinise the actions of those entrusted to uphold the name of Celtic, we’ll never perish.
CANAMALAR- I posted alternate views to Big Bhoy (ooh err missus),re our transfer policy. Lawwell and Park are the root cause of it. Any manager worth his salt wouldn’t look at the Celtic job,working under these 2.Saying the manager has the final say on ins and outs,is naive to say the least. Keep fighting the good fight on Res 12,you are not alone. HH
Bobby. The most ethical club in the world? Nuff said.
HT I think the Celtic supporters are remarkable. But the ethos which holds all this good work together is being destroyed. Once that goes the rest diminishes.,
On Saturday I wrote a post about the danger we face in Celtic supporters being alienated by the club. Regardless of whether you agree with their reasons for feeling alienated, it must be recognised that the feeling is there. I suggested that perhaps structural change was required at the club so that fans were represented and that the governance of the club reflected our broad church. I mused that fan ownership could be a possible avenue for achieving that, and that I had to go away and do some research, which I’ve started.
I must stress at this juncture that my motives are for improving the club, not tearing it apart.
Celtic, as we all know, is currently incorporated as a PLC that is run for the benefit of the interests of the shareholders. Those shares are, in the main, owned by supporters with the best interests at heart. However, there are those that own more shares than others, therefore there are those who carry more sway than others. That’s just the nature of a PLC. People stump up their money and own the shares they have paid for. Nothing wrong with that. But is that the best set up for a football club so dependent on fans, and so intrinsically linked to altruistic beginnings?
My research thus far into fan ownership, or more appropriately termed “member ownership” has taken me on a tour of case studies, club statutes and articles of association of clubs like Schalke 04, Eintracht Frankfurt, Bayern Munich, Barcelona, Malmo, FC United of Manchester and Clyde FC. To varying degrees, each of these clubs is run on a fairly democratic basis. There is no single owner, or dominating party. The club is made up of members who pay an annual subscription for the right, amongst other things, to attend general meetings and cast a vote on matters of club governance. One member, one vote.
With regard to German clubs, the DFB maintains a “50+1” rule where the club (i.e. the members) must maintain a majority of voting rights, and thus prevents clubs being run by private enterprises (Bayer Leverkusen and Wolfsburg are exceptions). There are now only a handful of clubs in Germany that are purely member owned. Two of these are Eintracht Frankfurt and Schalke 04. Both clubs have statutes which allow members to decide the path their club takes through democratic voting. In the case of both clubs the members are not entitled to any share of profits that the club. In the case of Eintracht Frankfurt, the statutes state that there is an obligation on members to act in a manner that preserves the reputation and honour of the club and to act in a way that is conducive to the objectives of the association. Likewise, elected board members are obliged to act for the benefit of the club and to carry out the directions of the membership (as voted for at meetings). Sounds like a structure we are all familiar with and could have no gripes with, doesn’t it. It’s just a simple democracy.
One of the interesting concepts I came across with some German clubs is that of having a “Supervisory Board”. The purpose of a Supervisory Board is to advise the board of directors, and in most instances, ensure that the board of directors comply with the club constitution/statutes. I’ll ignore Bayern Munich’s Supervisory Board which is made up corporate big wigs (directors of Audi, Allianz and Adidas etc), but at other clubs you have ordinary fans, businessmen, civil servants, politicians and academics all making up the SB. Does that not seem like an interesting idea for our club? Would that be a more appropriate (or attainable) level for fan representation or for the involvement of political figures (such as Ian Livingstone and Brian Wilson), and…heaven forbid…some ex players?
This post is already very long, so I’ll follow up with another at a later date on Malmo, as Auldheid pointed out there are situational similarities with Celtic and an economic analysis is required.
I’ll finish by saying that many may point out that the PLC structure is here to stay, as a change from that would require a mass, coordinated act of philanthropy based on ideals that everyone would buy into. But I don’t see the harm in examining the ideas behind member ownership.
Same posters same pish.
Good Morning Bhoys When Ronny joined Celtic I liked what he said play with lots of energy chase opponents down get the players fitter.However, there is no real sign of these things 18 months on we seem at times to be more pedestrian than ever. There have been games where it appeared the team were just not up for the game.So what do we do about it ? well one way is to sack Ronny and consign 18 months of work to the dustbin and start again with a new manager.I think Ronny should be given to the end of this season to see if he can turn it around and get the players playing the attractive style of football he spoke about if we continue to be pedestrian and continue to appear disinterested as a team we then should look for a replacement until then we should get right behind the manager and the team. H.H.
Neganon
I disagree. That ethos is only diminished if you allow it to be so. I’ve made this point to you before, I believe you put too much stock in the importance of the board’s ability to define us as Celtic supporters. For me personally, they rarely have and rarely will.
Jungle Jim HS 8.46am
Re Your view that Richard Wilson is more fair minded to Ronny Deila than many on CQN;
You often post on here insisting that the negative views that some have on how Celtic is being run are influenced by an anti-Celtic msm agenda.
Do you think it is possible that tricky Dicky – well known for broadcasting pro-Sevco and dave king propaganda – is trying to sway the opinions of these Celtic fans whom you think are so easily persuaded are influenced by the media?
Maybe the anti-Celtic msm have tippled that Ronny is not going to be a success at Celtic and are desperate for him to remain in place on that basis and are trying to brainwash the Celtic fans into accepting the status quo?
Just a thought maybe worth considering given your views on how fans opinions are shaped by the msm to the club’s detriment.
Praise from CowieBhoy, wow! And Thanks, we are rudderless at present, and the fault lies with Mr Bankier, behaving himself.
TBB, Mr Bankier upfront?!?!? Great idea, it would take the pressure of James Forrest, he would feel loved in comparison.
SFTB’s, sorry just can’t agree with that, not even McGhee could make Star Wars watchable, ever, FACT.
JFH
Sadly I agree ref the fitness and pace for many of our players and many of our games, esp late on in the match.
Over trained? Dunno?
Mind the last 10 mins push for victory that so characterised the Centenary season? We can’t have that all the time. But by **** err gum, we should always strive for it!
HH jamesgang
DAVIDOPOULOUS. Fella you dont need to go outside Scotland to see fan ownership working you only need to look at Stirling Albion who under there fans have returned from the brink and appear to be on the way up again.H.H.
Aff oot. Christmas shopping to start.
BahHumbugCSC
HH jamesgang
Maidin mhaith.
Árd Macha
Joe Filippis Haircut
Yep, good point. I’ve also read their articles of association, however due to the fact that I don’t want to post something that would take up the entire page I cut some stuff out of my message. I can do a follow up on the Scottish clubs.
What I would say about the Scottish clubs that have taken the community ownership route is that they seized their opportunity when they were in a real crisis (i.e. close to going bust).
The parallel I was trying to draw with German clubs is the organisational structure for bigger clubs. Unfortunately, it’s too big a topic to summarise in a single opening gambit :)
bbc –
‘Media reports had linked the pair with a move to the side battling Celtic’s city rivals, Rangers, for the Scottish Championship title and promotion.’
city rivals !!!!!!! jeez I know we’re downsizing but if they’re our rivals ……
LENNON’S PASSION on 22ND DECEMBER 2015 10:02 AM
Same posters same pish.
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No disrespect my friend in Celtic, but is that your best shot ?
HH
Morning all, wit a night, must have been 70 mph winds. HH
Mark McGhee .
Clearly a man who likes to keep his ” bigness ” under a bushell .—
Relegated at Brighton .
Sacked by Wolves
Mutually consented at Milwall.
Sacked by Brighton ( again )
Left Motherwell for Aberdeen ( but it could easily have been Mad Vlad’s Hertz.)
Sacked by Aberdeen ..
Sacked by Bristol Rovers .
Currently at Motherwell.
Clearly just the man for the job of managing Celtic .
Lovely sunny 18 degree day -way down south . Much work to do / Christmas is coming and then I’ll be off oot for some festive period R and R in Marrakesh
SoT
Don’t be stating facts, our Mark McGhee fan thinks shock jock Shug is a journalist !
LP
If unhappy with the blog hit the X button or post something to get the Celtic chat going
DAVIDOPOULOS
I greatly respect your efforts on this and your motivation for doing so. But the main consideration is purely financial.
How much would DD-and other large shareholders-require to sell up?
How much would be required for working capital? Because the Co-op loan guarantee would likely be withdrawn.
How much finance,in fact,would we have to display as a workable business plan in order that we didn’t find ourselves in the same boat as the fod? Because without the support of a financial lifebelt it would be very difficult to rebuild the team.
Now,that’s my entirely negative view of the possibilities. More positively,the Celtic support will always support a well-intentioned and well-led initiative.
So.
If the answers are around and the methods are achievable,you will find support. You will have mine,for sure.
67heaven,
Re you calling another poster hate filled.
Just because a Celtic supporter brings the failings of the club to task for their failures does not mean they are hate filled. If so 90% plus of the support is hate filled.
Unfortunately for you the vast majority of us do not live in a green utopia believing that everybody is out to get us. Try and think for yourself and expand your literary exploits beyond the Celtic View.
The Celtic fans who don’t accept the significant failings of the club have the best interests of the club at heart. They have the bar set at much higher level for whatever reason. Those like you who are happy as long as there is a team in green and white actually do the club a disservice in the long run as you sustain the mediocrity and the ongoing decline.
However I don’t expect you to get it as your posts suggest you are buried in a green bunker on look out for all Celtics critics of a green , blue or grey persuasion. An additional free piece of advice….never defend the indefensible.
Ard Macha
Good morning to you as well
Just logged on to CQN this morning. What a pleasure to see Weefra back posting.
Has made my day that. Welcome home F!
South Of Tunis on 22nd December 2015 10:21 am
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Hail Hail fella.
Ye need tae tune-in….Big McGhee’s Motherwell team made, Ronny’s Celtic team look like, one of yon teams that the huns have been playing for the last 4 years….on Saturday.
Big McGhee was sacked at the clubs that you mention but….so would, Jose, Swalex, Arsne, Ronny have all been sacked from those clubs had they been givenht etools that Big McGhee had to work with….imho.
Probably….nae kidding here….the guy who would have turned round all those clubs that sacked Big McGhee would have been…..Big Warburton….imho
HH
James Gang
“Mind the last 10 mins push for victory that so characterised the Centenary season?”
I mind it this year too
Celtic 1 Qarabag 0 – 82nd min winner
Celtic 2 Raith 0 87th min clincher
Hearts 1 Celtic 2- 82nd min score
ICT 1 Celtic 3- 85th min clincher
Fenerbache 1 Celtic 1- 75th min equaliser- does that count?
Winning Captains
Postie arrived with my prizes from Friday’s quiz.
Thank you very much. Looking forward to reading the book and watching King of Kings DVD.
The drams are a nice touch too. :)
BOBBY MURDOCH’S CURLED-UP WINKLEPICKERS
At the moment, I am working on the basis that member ownership is a pipe dream. However, there are some key fundamentals that sit under the concept of member ownership which I find rather interesting and extremely appealing.
The financials are not something have had time to investigate in depth. Most member owned clubs exist as a result of their historical origin, or having been on the brink of extinction. I do not know any example of a high profile, multi-million football clubs converting to such a structure, so right now I have no answer for you. But that doesn’t mean I should stop thinking about the question.
The structure of the club should be examined, even if it only confirms that the status quo is the only situation that is likely to prevail.
GREENPINATA on 22ND DECEMBER 2015 10:18 AM
Short and sweet but the truth. Everyone Tim has a moan about their team. Not every day all day same rubbish wrote a 1000s ways.
Latchford
“Those like you who are happy as long as there is a team in green and white actually do the club a disservice in the long run as you sustain the mediocrity and the ongoing decline.”
And our forefathers who sustained attendance at this club during the post WW2 drought, ensured there was a club bigger than Queens Park or East Fife for glory hunters to attend when we had successful periods.