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Bogus issues and a Good Old Celtic debate

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I’ve not spent a lot of time online this week (work sometimes creeps in) but can’t believe the amount of traction that notion that Sevco would somehow be able to acquire SFA membership of a dead club, with all associated benefits, but be in a position to dictate set terms on how past misdeeds of Rangers would be recorded.

This is a bogus debate which serves only to deflect from the more serious issues facing Sevco, namely, do they have circa £25m to pay their way this season?  If not, their pedantic views of disciplinary matters are moot, although they may be used as a principled excuse to fold a football club.

On more positive matters……….

Tony Hamilton asked me into the Celtic TV to discuss various issues surrounding the club.  We spoke about how recent events elsewhere have had a galvanising impact on supporters of Celtic and other clubs, where Celtic’s future should be.  I also gave a breakdown of what the death of Rangers would mean financially to Celtic, with or without Champions League group stage qualification, talked about how it would benefit the entire Scottish game if we found a new league to play in, and the great atmosphere we have at Celtic Park these days – which you can experience if you buy a season ticket, which you absolutely-without-a-doubt-should!

Do it now.  The video is below:

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  1. TheGreenManalishi(WithTheTwoProngedCrown) on

    An Fear Dearg

     

     

    The key here is the trading year. A 31/12 year end would encompass the 2nd half of season 1 and the first half of season 2 as long as all revenues and costs are properly allocated there is no issue and this allows for a like for like comparison between trading years. It seems to me the most appropriate year end for a UK football club would be 30/6 but to my knowledge their is no legal requirement on year end an organisation can choose whatever year end they like.

     

    The key thrust of this argument is that as at 30/6/11 Cetic’s debt was negligble according to the published a/c’s.

     

     

    HH

  2. Sevco might make it to the SPL eventually, but by having to stick to financial rules and paying taxes etc in those intervening years they will still be an impoverished club when they reach the SPL

  3. A son of dan 16.22

     

     

    It is not unreasonable to harbour doubts about this Celtic team when you consider that they got beat by a bunch of non entities like Killie in last years LC final ,and then again by a much inferior (on paper)Hearts side in the SC final.

     

     

    A67

  4. 48,512 sold so far for HJK game, which is encouraging so far from the match.

     

     

    we managed 52,000 against Braga in our last Champions League Qualifier.

     

     

    Don’t ask me how i arrived at these figures.

  5. Andrew67 on 26 July, 2012 at 16:36 said:

     

     

    Celtic’s financial position and the search for a better league structure is completely independent of Sevco, hopefully we will see a resurgence in strength from teams like Aberdeen or Dundee Utd.

     

     

    If and when Sevco return to the premier league I can’t see them being challengers for anything without a massive cash boost and it is painfully clear that ole Chas Green esq. is not holding the bucks to finance such a glorious comeback.

     

     

    In short what I was meaning is oldco/newco/sevco will never be the same…

  6. leftclicktic on

    Imagine being connected to DEADclub in any way over the last 15 years and are now just hoping against hope that the internet BAMPOTS dont uncover your dirty secrets OHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH how the must pine for the days when everything was kept inhouse and the people fed crap through the DR.

     

    MEMO to any CHEATING, LYING ,THIEVING.CORRUPT DEADclub associated folk ooooooot there THE BAMPOTS ARE COMING TO GET YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ENJOY TRYING TO SLEEP AT NIGHT.

  7. Steinreignedsupreme on

    gerryguk7 on 26 July, 2012 at 16:47:

     

     

    “48,512 sold so far for HJK game, which is encouraging so far from the match.

     

     

    “we managed 52,000 against Braga in our last Champions League Qualifier.”

     

     

    How did you arrive at those figures?

  8. traditionalist88 on

    When is it going to be made clear to the huns that even if they are playing again they WILL be doing so as a new club… I felt the BBC website updating the 3rd division table to include ‘The Rangers FC’ was a first step but would like full clarification from those in power at Ibrox and from the various mainstream media resources!

     

     

    HH

  9. Steinreignedsupreme on

    Brogan Rogan Trevino and Hogan supports Kano 1000 on 26 July, 2012 at 12:52:

     

     

    Just read your posting there. Brilliant. Very enlightening.

  10. Peter Lawell talks a good game,asking celtic supporters to buy a season ticket, thats fine but what do they get in return,firstly there will be no big signings .lets be truthful here,mr lawell you have to put something on the table,allt this talk about ,players such as maley, mcstay,they are history this club talks about the past thats fine,but for me its the future i look to,but i think things are going to get worse for scottish football,

  11. TheGreenManalishi(WithTheTwoProngedCrown) on

    I would’nt get hung up about SEVCO being back in the SPL debt free in three years time. As P67 posted the other day the operating costs for Ibrox are around £16m pa even with a 20% cost reduction programme (a monumental task) the costs alone will be £12/13m then add on payroll costs, players backroom staff, admin staff etc. what will this be ? Can you do this realistically on £12m pa ? (another monumental task) As I posted the other day if they sell 45k ST’s at full price this only generates £9.5m revenue. Need a lot of pie sales to make up that shortfall.

     

     

    HH

  12. 52,000 for Braga game is from the BBc website.

     

     

    The other figures are arrived at by adding all the unsold seats shown on the diagram on the celticfc website, and deucting from our attendance.

     

     

    It is more shame at undeterred geekiness, rather than need to protect the identity of sources of confidential commercial information, that motivated my discomfort at revealing my methodology for calculating the estimated attendance.

  13. !!Bada Bing!! on

    Steinreignedsupreme-We knew the dates of qualifiers months ago.Personally I find it hard to get attatched to loan players,Keane,Bellamy et al.We are reactive instead of being proactive IMO,a wee bit of investment whilst selling Ki for example,is where we are as a Club.Build it gradually and don’t sign any more squad fillers.We have known for a while ne needed a CB ,Fujot was not replaced after he was injured,and a different type of striker to compliment what we have.Not bank busting investments,just pragmatic progression.HH

  14. Bazzabhoy

     

    Big Sammi is also my hero…….A finer player I have never seen – I preferred him when he played for Stoneyburn Juniors. I usually have a pint with him and yer uncle Terry in the Buchan arms when I am home.

     

    Teuchter ár lá

  15. tomtheleedstim on

    From KDS.

     

    I’ve just a well informed little bird tell me that Sevco have folded in the last half hour and accepted all the terms attached to transfer of the old huns SFA membership

     

     

    Edit: Source is my little cousin who works for the SFA and who I’m obviously not going to name

  16. as regards the Olympics, are you not fed up with the constant inclusion of David Beckham in just about everything. I am really upset that he did not get the chance to win an Olympic football winners medal to go with the World Cup medal and European Championship medal

  17. !!Bada Bing!! on

    JJ- I’m a pretty positive bhoy,moan over but there might be a similar minded poster along soon HH :}

  18. •-:¦:-•** -:¦:- sparkleghirl :¦:-.•**• -:¦:-• on

    tomtheleedstim on 26 July, 2012 at 16:58 said:

     

     

    When you said ‘folded’ I first thought you mean ‘gone bust’ rather than ‘baked down’.

     

     

    But that will do for now. The rest will come later.

  19. traditionalist88 on 26 July, 2012 at 16:52 said:

     

    When is it going to be made clear to the huns that even if they are playing again they WILL be doing so as a new club… I felt the BBC website updating the 3rd division table to include ‘The Rangers FC’ was a first step but would like full clarification from those in power at Ibrox and from the various mainstream media resources!

     

    ————————————————————————–

     

    we wish – Jabba, Keevins etc will do their best to avoid saying that

  20. traditionalist88 on

    tomtheleedstim

     

     

    ‘Sevco have folded in the last half hour’

     

     

    Almost another jelly and ice cream moment… well still is I suppose;)

     

     

    HH

  21. traditionalist88 on

    Ron Bacardi

     

     

    Legally, though, they can’t mislead the public as they are in a trusted position(I know) and have a duty of care to report accurately… Wikipedia have a new page for the new club(founded 2012), shouldn’t be so difficult for the Scottish MSM really, should it?! :)

     

     

    HH

  22. tomtheleedstim on

    Cut and paste ladies and gents. Not my info.

     

    I know what you mean though. I went from 0-100 in 2 secs and then back to about 75 when I understood the gist.

  23. traditionalist88 on

    On that note I notice Wiki have edited the tense from ‘Rangers FC was a football club’ back to ‘Rangers FC is a football club’ …

     

     

    I assume this is because BDO haven’t done the business yet?

     

     

    HH

  24. Taking inspiration from Paul’s headline above maybe they should be known as Bogus Rangers

  25. Not too impressed by PL’s letter to the fans. All about what you can do for your club, nothing about what the club will do in return. Actually found it quite condescending.

  26. I can’t see anyway that Sevco if given a license can get through the season, the numbers just don’t add up….

     

     

    Administration beckons…

  27. tomtheleedstim on

    Starry Plough – I tend to agree with that. Might have a look at those odds again.

  28. Ron Bacardi on 26 July, 2012 at 16:59 said:

     

     

    Agreed. It has now reached the boak inducing stage. He was pictured alongside Ali, with some reference made to two sporting greats, I kid you not.

     

     

    Ali was World Heavyweight Champion, having a few years previously been an Olympic Heavyweight Champion.

     

     

    He gave his world crown up and went to prison for his beliefs.

     

     

    Now to Mr Beckham – oh that’s right he never scaled any of those heights. Could you ever see that man even if he was in Ali’s position standing by his principles and going to jail. This idea is even more ludicrous than him being in that position in the first place. The most over-rated footballer this planet has ever seen.

     

     

    Rant over.

     

     

    Árd Macha

     

     

    .

  29. traditionalist88 on 26 July, 2012 at 17:07 said:

     

    On that note I notice Wiki have edited the tense from ‘Rangers FC was a football club’ back to ‘Rangers FC is a football club’ …

     

    ——————————————————————

     

    Wiki do not edit, it’s the likes of us the users, so I take it some hun has edited it back to the present tense, don’t worry a Tim will correct it

  30. traditionalist88 on

    Ron Bacardi

     

     

    The Rangers articles, though, were protected from editing, and the current version was past tense whilst it was locked for editing and a debate raged on the discussion page about the tense and whether there should be a separate listing for ‘newco Rangers’, founded in 2012, whilst the huns claim to be the same club.

     

     

    The newco Rangers page remains(also protected) but the tense of the old RFC has changed from ‘was a football club’ back to ‘IS a football club’… this change happened while in protected form, so one of the site admins has changed it, and my point was that I would take this to mean they(oldco) technically still exist until BDO step in and wind them up…

     

     

    HH

  31. Ron Bacardi on 26 July, 2012 at 16:59 said:

     

    as regards the Olympics, are you not fed up with the constant inclusion of David Beckham in just about everything. I am really upset that he did not get the chance to win an Olympic football winners medal to go with the World Cup medal and European Championship medal

     

    ——————————————————

     

    Totally agree – I am heartily sick of every mention of the Olympics being prefaced with a reference to DB, why he’s not included, what will he do at the opening etc etc… totally nauseating. Sure, he was a fine player, and I guess a decent ambassador for his sport (compared to some of his peers), but he does not have a god given right to participate in any way. it is to Pearce’s credit that he picked his squad on merit and not sentiment. If Beckham appears lighting the flame on Friday, my TV is in severe jeopardy…

  32. Neil canamalar Lennon hunskelper extrordinaire on

    traditionalist1888,

     

    the wiki tense is correct, they do exist and are currently in administration and under investigation for corruption :o)

  33. Brogan Rogan Trevino and Hogan supports Kano 1000 on

    Good afternoon ( again )

     

     

    Can I just point out that every single piece of information in my earlier post is readily available and in the public domain.

     

     

    Some of the sources are linked below, and it only takes asking a few questions in your own head when you read some of the information that is readily put out by the very people concerned.

     

     

    It was King who claimed that he had been paid £15M or more by Rangers up to 2001. Just what was that for? Who authorised it? Where did the money come from? How is it accounted for in the accounts of Rangers PLC? Did he eventually pay tax on it or was it paid net? Did he invest the money in Rangers in a personal capacity and did the money come from his own personal account or from the account of a company that he controlled?

     

     

    If it came from somewhere outside the UK, was the money “cleared” in the normal fashion by the appropriate authorities?

     

     

    It was he who said he had been deceived by Murray and that Murray had deliberately mislead him as to the club’s finances. Why has no one asked him waht he means by that? What does he mean by that?

     

     

    It is pure arithmetic to calculate the then supposed value of 100% of Rangers PLC value when King apparently paid £20M for a minority share and a seat on the board. Remember that if Murray sold 85% of the shareholding to Whyte, then clearly King’s £20M bought him less than 15% as there were and are other shareholders!

     

     

    Why will Green not reveal who the investors are? What kind of person, presuming he is of sound mind, goes before a licensing and regulatory body and says ” I’m afraid I am not going to tell you whose money is involved in this project! I am only the front man and my investors and masters must remain a secret and undisclosed”?

     

     

    Can such a stance seriously expect to succeed when faced with a fit and proper person test– especially agaisnst the background of Whyte who,remember, the SFA themselves have banned from Scottish Football.

     

     

    Also stop and think on this. Why did neither Whyte nor Ticketus object to the sale of the assets to Green for the sum received by Duff & Phelps?

     

     

    Why isn’t there a clamour from Ticketus and Whyte? Why is there no legal action?

     

     

    Note what the revenue said in relation to the refusal of the CVA! Agreeing the CVA would not allow them to pursue those who were responsible for the financial failure of the company?

     

     

    Who was responsible? Who controlled or authorised the spending when they were making losses? Who authorised, knew about and implemented the the EBT scheme for the players signed latterly?

     

     

    If those players were paid through the EBT under contract, then that is a good reason for paying them no matter how the money eventually got to them. However if the money was just a gift or a loan and not part of any contractual obligation– why should such payments stand when the company is not making money and creditors are left swinging?

     

     

    Who negotiated the transfers and agreed the terms? Who registered their contracts with the official footballing body? Was there deception and if so on what basis and by whom? Which Individuals?

     

     

    And what of the Footballing Audit of all documents, contracts and financial and other compliance? Who carried this out? When did it happen? Who prepared the annual returns for the SFA and who signed them off?

     

     

    Do we really have Whyte and King saying they were deceived by Murray?

     

     

    Do you recall Billy Dodds saying the same thing? ” Sir David told me the money due to me on leaving Rangers would be paid through the EBT and had had the tax already paid on it”? or words to that effect! Is there anyone else who has said, or who will say, ” I was told ” this or that by David Murray or anyone else?

     

     

    Maybe Doods is naive? Maybe he is stupid? Whatever he is, that is his “on the record” comment about what and how he was paid through the EBT scheme, and who seemingly authorised the payment.

     

     

    Who authorised the payments to Souness that we know of? How are they recorded and justified? What were they for and how did Souness apply to the EBT trustees for a payment? Where is the documentation?

     

     

    Let’s go further.

     

     

    This is the UK tax authority that you are dealing with here:

     

     

    What did the beneficiaries of the EBT payments do with the money once they had “borrowed” it? Did they buy property with it? Did they buy businesses with it?

     

    Did they ever– in any way shape or form– pay any of the money back to Rangers PLC, or anyone connected with Rangers PLC?

     

     

    Did any of the employees or Rangers PLC receive any other “benefits in kind” that were not declared but which would and should have attracted tax?

     

     

    For example– who paid for players holidays and travel? Who paid for their families to travel?

     

     

    Also another unanswered question for me:

     

     

    Alastair Johnstone said that there was no need to sell to Whyte as he had an alternative plan– or two!

     

     

    The first was that he seriously believed that he could go to HBOS and suggest that the remainder of Rangers debt-at the time some £30M or so- could be transferred to MIH- after all MIH owed the bank hundreds of Millions of pounds! so another £30M wouldn’t matter!

     

     

    Given that AJ is not a complete dolt– how did he come to the conclusion that this was even feasable? Was he told by the bank it would be considered?

     

     

    Was he told by Murray it could be done? Was he relying on past experience as he knew that this is precisely what had happened before when Rangers ran aground? The bank supported a share issue underwritten by MIH who in turn were underwritten by the bank! I wonder which bank officials authorised that transaction?

     

     

    Will the Liquidator reach the conclusion that there were those with HBOS who could be viewed as Shadow Directors of Rangers PLC? and if so would the Liquidator chase the bank for recompense for the creditors- as after all, when the bank were swallowed up by Lloyds, the Lloyds guys kicked all the HBOS guys out, pulled Murray’s facilities (MIH & Rangers) and played hardball to ensure they received every single penny of their own money back– with all the other creditors left standing with their heads in their hands.

     

     

    For those who do not deal with corporate banking on a regular basis let me just say that bank officials these days are constantly crapping themselves about the possibility of being seen as shadow directors. They are scared stiff of such an allegation or acting in any way that gives rise to such an allegation.

     

     

    No there is now enough in the very public domain for dumplings like me to see what doesn’t make sense and ask some questions. Some of the answers appear to be available too, as not everyone who used to be in the same team is singing from the same hymn sheet anymore.

     

     

    The liquidator will have access to yet more information and the big tax case decision will blow the lid off even more.

     

     

    Yet there sits Green– the mystery man– maybe he is not so much Charlie Green as Harry Lime– the mysterious man from the shadows, who will not say who he acts for.

     

     

    And the football authorities seriously entertain him?

     

     

    Murray- to Whyte– To Greene.

     

     

    Is he the third man?

     

     

    As for the big picture of the washing machine and the bag of money that was sent to me?

     

     

    My response is contained in the link immediately below:

     

     

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oz8RjPAD2Jk

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

    ———————————————————————————————————–

     

     

    http://local.stv.tv/glasgow/106990-ex-rangers-director-king-claims-newco-club-will-not-make-profit/

     

     

    http://scotslawthoughts.wordpress.com/2012/07/06/dave-king-and-rangers-ebts-and-sars-guest-post-by-jim/

     

     

    http://www.scotsman.com/the-scotsman/sport/football/rangers-crisis-dave-king-fires-volley-at-sir-david-murray-1-2159317

     

     

    http://local.stv.tv/glasgow/105837-rangers-liquidation-now-inevitable-after-cva-bid-rejected-by-hmrc/

     

     

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dave_King_(businessman)

  34. traditionalist88 on 26 July, 2012 at 17:15 said:

     

    The Rangers articles…… were protected from editing…

     

    —————————————————————————–

     

    makes you wonder who has arranged that