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Celtic fans meeting with Neil Doncaster and Rod McKenzie

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Along with a few others, last week I met SPFL chief exec, Neil Doncaster and the League’s solicitor, Rod McKenzie.  The minutes below appeared on Celtic Underground yesterday evening.

The meeting was helpful in accruing background information for the proposed Judicial Review and was useful in defining the League’s position on a number of matters.

It’s a lengthy tome but please take the opportunity to digest.  I am going to leave this article linked prominently at the top of the page for a few days, although we will have a fresh Champions League article within the hour.

The following is a summary:

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In the meeting Neil Doncaster (ND) was more willing to engage than Rod McKenzie (RM), who we found to be obtrusive, pedantic and continually picking out where one word did not fit with his narrow, technical legal definitions.

He was most argumentative in those areas that would be up for debate and where it was felt they were not speaking from strong, justified position.  At times McKenzie’s meandering answers seemed to take the question asked, towards his preferred answer.

RM and ND insisted the legality of EBTs was irrelevant to the SPFL as prior to 2011 they had no specific rules on how clubs carried out their tax affairs.  This excused the Lord Nimmo Smith Commission (LNS) from regarding the five cases of guilt accepted during FTT, or the accepted liability for the Wee Tax Case. The lawfulness of tax affairs had not been considered by the football authorities as the SPFL believed Rangers simply misunderstood their tax position, not that they were illegal.

McKenzie said Rangers believed their tax should have been one figure; HMRC went to court to establish it should have been higher.  He further added that many clubs have gone into administration without paying the full amount of due tax, so Rangers were not an exception.  ND pointed out that Craig Whyte had been charged by the SFA for non-payment of taxes, yet no charge has ever been laid against RFC by the SFA for a much larger non payment of tax.

The SPLs only interest was in player registration.  LNS punished Rangers for this and for failure to pay tax on such a scale.

The SPL set up an investigation from 1 July 1998; this was not the initial advertised date of the LNS Commission.  McKenzie carried out the investigation but Rangers failed to provide documents asked for prior to November 2000, so he could only address the subsequent period to LNS.  The administrators of Rangers said the earlier documents were held by Murray Group and that they were unable to acquire them.  McKenzie prevaricated when asked what steps he took to acquire the documents.

RM asserted that the WTC was dealt with in the LNS Commission as 3 players; Ronald De Boer, Flo and Moore were all addressed in the Commission. De Boer, Flo and Moore had both DOS and EBTs. The earliest was from 2000 during the operation of the Discounted Options Scheme. No distinction was drawn between the “Big” and “Wee” tax cases as ND & RM continually asserted that LNS was not about tax. It was all about the player registration. Those 5 EBT cases where guilt was admitted, were similarly not treated differently by LNS.

Most of his (RM) information for the Commission was taken from the BBC documentary.  Rangers only provided him with 29 almost identical documents, with names and other information redacted. He was given documents from another source but would not state what this was. It was only during the enquiry that Duff and Phelps confirmed the redacted documents. All initial enquiries were passed by them to MIH and their lawyers who would not forward the documents requested.

RM pointed out that they were charged by LNS for non cooperation with the enquiry (Issue 4 addressed by LNS)).  For this they were merely admonished. (For information the relevant part of the adjudication is below).

“Failure to respond timeously to legitimate requests for the provision of information is a serious breach of the rules.  If the football authorities are to perform their functions effectively, such requests by them must be met.  In the present case, at the time that the initial request was made, and throughout the subsequent period, Oldco was in administration and the administrators were acting as its agents.  The administrators had the responsibility of discharging Oldco’s obligations, including those to the football authorities.  They did not do so, and thus caused Oldco to be in breach of the Rules.  We have decided, however, without wishing to detract from the gravity of the breach, that no separate financial penalty should be imposed on Oldco in this regard.  Instead, we shall impose an admonition.”

They were asked if the SPFL would work against or block a Judicial Review.  After a bit of conversation both said they wouldn’t be obstructive.  When they were asked if they would be willing to have a preliminary meeting with counsel, at the same moment that Neil Doncaster said yes, McKenzie answered, “Depends on who it is”.   On the subject of a Judicial Review, McKenzie was doubtful that it would get standing.  Neil Doncaster said that would ultimately be a matter for the clubs to decide if the SPFL would contest the right of fans to have a review,

McKenzie suggested a Judicial Review could only look at two items:

1. The conclusion by the Lord Nimmo Smith Commission that Rangers did not play ineligible players.

2. The level of penalty arrived at by the Lord Nimmo Smith Commission was insufficient.

Point 1 goes to Sandy Bryson’s evidence. When it was stated that Sandy Bryson interpreted registration rules in a way that came as a surprise to most in Scottish Football, McKenzie commented – “It was an interpretation that came as a surprise to me too.”

On more than one occasion an attempt was made to discuss LNS and the legality position but McKenzie adopted a defensive, argumentative position, saying that LNS did not and could not review the issue of non payment of tax, dismissing comments around the potential view of Nimmo Smith around the ultimate alternative opinion of the Supreme Court.

McKenzie’s view was that LNS only looked into player registration and not tax.  LNS decided that side contracts did not provide competitive advantage but were a breach of rules and therefore they imposed a £250,000 fine. (Nb they confirmed that the£250,000 LNS fine was ultimately deducted from money due to Newco. As well as this, costs were also deducted.)

It was suggested in the meeting that one of the reasons RFC did not provide contracts was because they felt it COULD have had a bearing on whether these “loans” were classed as remuneration.  Therefore using side letters helped to hide the payments from HMRC and allowing them to keep using the scheme, and potentially providing an advantage but McKenzie was adamant that the verdict of the Supreme Court or FTT had no bearing on LNS as the Commission was not looking at tax issues.

They were also asked about the new club issue.  RM said they were same club because ultimately they (the SPFL) wrote the rules.  They were dismissive about even debating the issues “We’d never agree” and treated it as a debating point rather than a fundamental belief of many fans. When asked for a description that could be written down and would stand up in court, they talked about it being “a feel” an “emotional attachment”. When pointed out this “feeling” would not stand up in court, RM responded – “Anyway this is not really relevant to the discussion”

ND repeated previous public assertions that he came from a “different football culture” where newcos were “normal” and “accepted”.  RM gave a number of examples in Scottish football where tax liability was ditched e.g. Hearts, Dundee, Gretna. It was pointed out to RM that none of the other Scottish cases he cited, pointed to deliberate concealment of tax liability over a sustained period of time.

ND cited the cases of Leeds, Bristol City etc. in England. It was put to him that despite the evidence that non payment of tax was on the increase both here and in England there was no explanation offered as to why this specific issue wasn’t in the SPL Rules prior to 2011(and before the time of Neil Doncaster).

When asked when they were first made aware of the looming RFC admin RM responded,” the day before they filed for administration”. (February 2012). Both Neil Doncaster and Rod McKenzie denied specifically knowing any earlier than this beyond rumours in Scottish Football.

They were specifically asked about the SPL board meeting of 31st October2011 and a reconvened board meeting in Mid/late November that year where the SPL/Fans TV deal being discussed. When it was suggested to Neil Doncaster that the exploration of an SPL TV deal was dropped due to “changed circumstances in Scottish football” he denied that this was because of meetings or contact with Rangers FC officials about their intention to enter administration.  They continually denied any advance knowledge even when it was put to them that there are documents in the public domain which suggest the contrary.

At one point ND asked, “Where are you going with this?”

It was suggested to them that some in Scottish Football would want to lend a helping hand to RFC to prevent them from defaulting early in the Season (and ahead of the transfer window). An example was provided of Dunfermline who were one match away from being unable to meet their fixture obligations – (v Falkirk in 2013) and defaulting on their fixtures. Their case was treated very differently

Neil Doncaster disputed this as a potential scenario, as an earlier Administration of RFC (less 3 months of PAYE/NI) would have meant HMRC not being the preferred creditor, able to block the CVA. It was commented on by those in the meeting, that he had an impressive grasp of these potential HMRC CVA blocking percentages from that period in late 2011 (prior to admin in 2012).

When the prospect of SPFL board minutes being opened up to a transparent investigative enquiry were discussed, they expressed unhappiness at this given the nature of some of the sensitive (including commercial) discussions which take place. Where they to be asked for specific information they may provide it (potentially redacted) but there would be no willingness to provide general access to SPFL documents from that period. This again suggested the need to ask specific legal questions rather than provide full transparency. Those at the meeting were given the impression that the full transparency fans have asked for was in question even from the SPFL. There would potentially be no obligation of anyone to co-operate with an enquiry.

A discussion also took place about the SFL. Both ND and RM asserted that the SFL’s record keeping was poor and would not provide much for an inquiry. When the issue of potential title stripping was discussed, it was revealed that the decision to recognise Newco’s claim to RFC’s titles, was taken by the SFL board including David Longmuir and Jim Ballantyne, when they decided to invite Newco into the SFL 3rd Division.

When it was suggested to ND that Jim Ballantyne’s documented shareholding in Rangers RFC could have created a conflict of interest in this decision, ND agreed that this potentially could be looked at by an inquiry but that there would be no obligation by anyone including Jim Ballantyne to co-operate with the inquiry. He did not question our understanding that Ballantyne did have a shareholding in Rangers as documented by a Channel 4 investigation.

https://www.channel4.com/news/by/alex-thomson/blogs/potential-conflicts-interest-heart-scottish-football

Given their assertion that the SFL’s record keeping was poor, their view was that it was unlikely that a record or a minute of the decision to recognise Newco’s claim to Rangers historical titles, would be available however this issue could potentially be re-examined in the future by an enquiry. The SPFL bore no responsibility for this state of affairs of the organisation they merged with. Their view on the potential lack of co-operation by figures still active in Scottish football was noted.

At the time of the meeting, there has been no response so far by the SFA to the SPFL call for an inquiry.  Both ND and RM were of the view that the SFA needed time to consult the various stakeholders but it transpired that the SFA hasn’t been written to yet by the SPFL but that they have been sent a copy of the press release instead.  ND agreed that a letter would be formally sent if no response received. They did not suggest a time frame for this.

Some of those still active in Scottish football, who were directly involved in the administration of Rangers FC during the EBT years, were discussed, with a view to ascertaining the view on how suitable it was for them to be still intrinsically involved in the running of the game, including on SFA committees.

They both seemed surprised that a Rangers official was on the Club Licensing Committee of the SFA in the year that Rangers were cleared to play in Europe despite their admitted tax liability in the Wee Tax Case. They were also unaware of the official’s current role at the SFA or even the workings of the SFA Committee he now serves on. RM was of the opinion that some officials were less important in the administration than others and made the point that it is the only the SFA who can rule on who is Fit and Proper. RM was also of the view that it is only Directors of a club/company (???)  who can be charged with disrepute. They accepted that there were a number of directors of Newco this could potentially apply to.

Both were also of the belief that David Murray would not be welcomed back into Scottish Football.

The meeting concluded. It was initially requested for the purposes of accurate record keeping, not broadcast  that a recording be made of the meeting. The SPFL representatives did not agree to this but stated that everything was “on the record” unless directed otherwise. No such direction was given.

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  1. Ernie/Parkheadcumsalsford,

     

     

    According to this data the last significant trades were in May 2017, 42m in value? April was quite high too at 11m, which is about twice the monthly average?

     

     

    I don’t know what the trades were, who bought or sold. End of season? Who knows?

     

     

    Since then only 1m in trades over three months shown, if the graphic is correct.

     

     

    I don’t know what that represents. It would be interesting to know. I’ll look at the last couple of seasons.

     

     

    http://www.londonstockexchange.com/exchange/prices-and-markets/stocks/exchange-insight/trade-data.html?page=0&pageOffBook=0&fourWayKey=GB0004339189GBGBXAIMI&formName=frmRow&upToRow=50

     

     

    HH

  2. Albion rovers thrown out of cup and fined £2000 for fielding an incorrectly registered player

  3. ERNIE LYNCH on 24TH AUGUST 2017 11:50 AM

     

    TURKEYBHOY on 24TH AUGUST 2017 11:41 AM

     

     

     

    You are right Ernie.would be nice to get 3rd place though.Most of the places would be nice for the fans,apart from Russia,which could be the easiest draw..

  4. traditionalist88 on

    clogher celt on 24th August 2017 12:14 pm

     

     

    Just to clarify, this is in response to the threat level in the UK and is precautionary, not specific threat to CP,

     

     

    HH

  5. Traditionalist,

     

     

    I don’t know what road closures have been in force around Ibrox. The article is not specific about what it will mean at CP.

     

     

    There was talk of disruption at Ibrox on the previous article. I think Sevco/Jabba have already released a a statement.

  6. traditionalist88 on

    clogher celt on 24th August 2017 12:21 pm

     

     

    Yes, it mentions that all large venues across the country and anywhere in the open where there are a lot of people gathered will be taking extra measures,

     

     

    HH

  7. MARADOMINIC on 24TH AUGUST 2017 12:09 PM

     

    Albion rovers thrown out of cup and fined £2000 for fielding an incorrectly registered player

     

     

     

    Just shows you what they think.Could not give a toss about rules.One for them,one for the rest.

     

    Free Mason scum.Wee Rovers should take them on in court.Thats a big amount of money for them.disgraceful.

  8. TURKEYBHOY

     

     

    I left in 1966 as well!

     

     

    Might know you.

     

     

    I was friendly with the Glavin’s, Ronnie’s big brother Frank and I were good mates.

     

     

    Who else did you know?

  9. BOBBY MURDOCH'S CURLED-UP WINKLEPICKERS on

    PAUL67

     

     

    The clubs who play senior football in Scotland decided at the start that the game needed to be regulated to ensure fairness.

     

     

    To that end,the SFA was formed,effectively a committee of those trusted to look after the game. League teams followed suit with the Scottish League.

     

     

    Effectively,these people were custodians of the game,charged with protecting and furthering it.

     

     

    What we have now-and for some time-is custodians who are answerable to no-one,and are only interested in protecting and furthering themselves.

     

     

    We need a total clear out and a rewrite of the statutes to ensure transparency at all times.

  10. 50 shades of green on

    Last time we were at the Victorian lavvy I noticed an increase in the security levels, ffs they even at security guards on the goalposts at the Celtic end:-).

     

     

    A.B.B.For me tonight in the Ntchampions league draw.

     

     

    Glamour draw would be Real Madrid PSG and anyone out of pot 3.

     

     

    I would take any of the Russian teams except Chelsea of course.

     

     

    And any of the teams from the greatest league in the world (boak) except Chelsea of course……

     

     

    O aye I dont want that old boot from Turin either.

  11. “…continually picking out where one word did not fit with his narrow, technical legal definitions”.

     

     

    This from a man who couldn’t tell a court what relegation meant, despite being called as an expert witness.

  12. I’m on Holiday in Barcelona on CL Match Day 3.

     

     

    Guess what I’d like to happen in the draw and fixtures today?! :-)

  13. Police Scotland going to keep us all safe from a terrorist attack, feck me! It’s only a couple of weeks ago they found a guy deed in ez hoos, and they had been looking for him for a month, and they had searched the hoos, bunch a septic tankers.

  14. cathedral view on

    Why does the ND & RM interpretation of the LNS enquiry differ from LNS himself who stated that his findings were based on Rangers(IL) operating a lawful remuneration scheme open to all.

     

     

    cv

  15. TD67,

     

     

    Police Scotland will be delighted at any opportunity to make things awkward around CP, especially on CL nights.

     

     

    No surprises that Sevco released a statement first.

  16. Excitedly awaiting the draw this evening.

     

     

    Ideal group – Real Madrid, Sevilla, Anderlecht.

     

     

    A mix of glamour and possibility of points.

     

     

    HH Banana Celt

  17. PHILBHOY on 24TH AUGUST 2017 12:55 PM

     

    TONYD

     

     

     

    I believe the deceased was discovered in his loft.

     

    ………………………

     

    Maybe the Polis should have tried looking HIGH and low ?

     

    HH

  18. The Green Man says SACK THE Board on

    TD67

     

     

    They cant find people in their own houses, or people in a fatal road crash, but they can find the time to go on TV and complain about banners.

     

    Kwality Polis.

     

    Keystone Cops

     

    Take your pick:)

     

     

    HH

  19. weebobbycollins on

    Finally, I hope the bhoys do really well in Europe. It will be a great GIRUY to alan stubbs and graeme souness… Now, I’m just going out with the dogs, I may be some time….

  20. traditionalist88 on

    BananaCelt on 24th August 2017 1:04 pm

     

     

    Would be great but doubt two Spanish sides can be in the same group

     

     

    HH

  21. traditionalist88 on

    Remove all the criticism of the group stage being predictable and a procession for the top sides by having an open draw – no seedings or restrictions on who plays who.

     

     

    HH

  22. Hoping for no Barcelona as I’m sure everyone is. Unless we get a “easy” group I’d probably prefer a strong Pot 1 and 2 and a really weak (if that’s possible) Pot 3.

  23. With regard to using ebts unlawfully:

     

     

    Are McKenzie/Doncaster saying that had it been dicovered in 2011 that RFC had been paying players cash under the table in brown envelopes for 10 years, that the SFA/SPL/SPFL would be powerless to act because there is no rule to sanction such a practice?

     

     

    I was always under the impression that registration rules were part of a deterrent to such practices in the sense that if a club did pay players extra under the counter and it was discovered, that club would face sporting sanctions for playing a player getting secret payments.

     

     

    I thought the reasoning for registration rules provided to LNS (from memory) was weak on this aspect and the main point of the rules in terms of declaring all payments was not given enough emphasis.

     

     

    The idea that a club cannot be sanctioned because the rules did not specifically mention using tax schemes in an unlawful manner to pay a player secretly more than was registered, is typical of the Pharisee thinking that manifests itself any time an accusation of wrong is made.

     

     

    In short if there is not a rule specifically saying it’s wrong then it’s not wrong.

     

     

    Risible but that is the mindset at play.

  24. For the record the following points were made last night in response to

     

     

    dessybhoy on 23rd August 2017 7:52 pm

     

     

    Just read that account of the meeting with Doncaster and McKenzie, these two are covering their arses big time, are squirming at times when a question is led that might throw their stories out and you can sense that all is not right and proper with this, they know it, the people at the meeting know it, many fans know it clubs are likely to know but WHO is going to do something about this and hold people to account and get rid of those who should not be in football?

     

    ===========================

     

    Four points to make on the Doncaster/McKenzie minutes.

     

     

    1. The owner operator rule was introduced in 2005 and not to confer immortality to the abstract “club” that was somehow owned and operated. That is a construction that Doncaster applied, possibly because of his experience in England, but it was introduced in 2005 to allow Romanov (or other “owners” )to be sanctioned and cover clubs that were not constituted like the majority as in Brechin City who could have entered the SPL under proposals for a second Premier Division at the time.

     

     

    Brechin City is an unincorporated body. It has no legal personality to own shares or anything else.

     

     

    The new regulations therefore would have allowed the shares to be registered by a club committee member. Under the original articles the holder of the SPL share could only be the club itself.

     

     

    So before 2005 there was only Rangers as is the case after 2005 since nothing changed but the rules.

     

     

    2. Rangers were never charged by the Judicial Panel or LNS of dishonesty using SFA Article 5.1 a and SPL Article 3.1 later adopted into SFA Articles in 2013 requiring a club to act in utmost good faith. Art 5.1a required a club to act with loyalty, integrity and sportsmanship in accordance with the rules of fair play.

     

     

    The JP only looked at Rangers behaviour under CW since 6th May and LNS at whether side letters should have been registered or not, not why they weren’t nor did they look at paying players by dishonest means, one of the reasons the registration rules required all payments to be registered.

     

     

    3. The claim made that the Judicial Panel charged CW with non payment of taxes is only partially true. For some strange reason, perhaps allied to 2, he was never charged with non payment of the wee tax liability and yet neither were Rangers who accepted the liability before Takeover. How that liability was accepted and a UEFA licence issued is part of what Res12 is trying to establish (and yes its still very much a live issue) but again it is symptomatic of a failure to charge Rangers of breaching good faith since 1999 when the first of the ebts that caused the liability were used.

     

     

    4. The claim that MIH failed to provide Duff and Phelps with documentation the SPL lawyer Rod McKenzie sought is questionable given that DE&P in March 2012 put a claim before court to recover the £2.8 M that they considered CW had held back using the detail about the wtc contained in HMRC documents.

     

     

    The problem the SPL/SPFL/SFA have is that nothing that comes from Ibrox from 2012 back to 1999 can be trusted yet they are acting as if its all been one big honest mistake whilst evidence to the contrary exists.

     

     

    Serious questions need to be asked of the individuals involved like Andrew Dickson, that ND says he was surprised to hear was on the 2011 Licensing Committee. There are others and if an enquiry gets underway watch for the blame game spilling the beans.

  25. Don’t understand most of the stuff with regards to meetings with Doncaster and mckenzie .

     

    But why do you meet with these people without having a legal representative in your corner .

     

    Seems like they can just tell you any old guff . Don’t let them off the hook .

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