All it took was one man, Eddie Smith, who joined the referees strike a year ago as their body became embroiled in allegations of lying, bullying and sectarianism, to make it his business to report Celtic fans to Uefa and the SPL, and the support are besieged on two fronts.
After decades of the police turning a deaf ear to illegal and offensive chanting elsewhere this might appear opportunistic, but Smith’s motivations are irrelevant. We have endured ‘the songs debate’ here for years, the only thing universally agreed upon is that as long as a single Celtic fan sings political songs at a game, this day would come.
I sincerely doubt that Celtic fans sing anything illegal, which perhaps explains why the police encourage observers to ‘police’ the stands, but no one denies many people, including a number of Celtic fans, find such singing offensive. There is, therefore, scope to mount an attempt to discipline the club, and an easy route to inflict reputational damage on each and every Celtic supporter.
The Debating societies will be exercised on the freedom of some to sing racially-hostile God Save the Queen, or the militaristic, Flower of Scotland, and wait for the reaction to what is euphemistically known as ‘the marching season’. In this vein I would encourage the Celtic delegation who meet Uefa next month read aloud a transcript of La Marseillaise, which becomes a logical target if Uefa prosecute our club.
I predict Uefa and the SPL will reprimand Celtic with a cease and desist-type warning which will include specific instructions to remove and ban ‘offenders’. Efforts will be made to prosecute ‘offenders’, which I expect will fail, but not before a few individuals are brought before the court.
Neil Lennon, Jock Stein and since Fergus McCann, the club, have asked fans not to sing political songs. Many agreed but some will not waver, so it would be an act of vanity for lesser mortals to suggest restraint. The slow train-wreck will happen.
Don’t take the notion that attempts to prosecute are likely to fail as legal advice. In my experience, lawyers become a lot less certain once proceedings are underway.
On a separate note, I was pleased to read Iain Blair of the SPL differentiate pro-IRA chanting from sectarian chanting. Lazy jounos everywhere take note.
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NatKnow @ 23:56
“Illicit”. It’s basic spin isn’t it. It’s not quite illegal, but it’s they’re intention to make it so, What word is foggy enough to cover that. Simples, “illicit”.
These are the kind of fudgeing words they come out with in contemporary propaganda attacks.
I know you know this. Just wanted you to know I know it too. You did ask….:)
Kingoh
Thank you.
Here’s a bit of levity to help u have a good chuckle before bed..this is a legitimate job posting on S1 jobs..who is crazy enough to apply though haha??
http://www.s1jobs.com/job/glasgow/accountancy/financial%2B-%2Bmgmt%2Baccounting/425601661.html
hamiltontim
I hope your not being racist. Tonto was the Lone R—-s native american companion ,not his horse .That was hiho SIlver.
The Honest Cover-up says:
16 November, 2011 at 00:03
You’re not the brightest, are you?
bamboo
Lol I’m too young to remember!
In my Word Association game, the word, illicit, will always prompt the associated word “still”.
Are Uefa complaining about PL marketing Poteen? Are we infringing one of their market partner’s territories. I know Amstel sponsor CL fitba but do they not just do beer?
Celtic Poteen. You know it makes sense.
Fortunes –
Cheers mate – agree with all of that. The wording for this stuff is (in my view) made deliberately vague enough to allow the club/organisation etc. to retain the balance of power in what is effectively a contract. That is – they’re happy to sell you (say) a season ticket, but need to retain the right to deny you entry on whatever grounds suits them. Usual stuff you see at every pub in the land – “Management reserves the right etc…”
BTW – feel free to remind me of anything as many times as you want – some of this stuff eventually makes it into my brain…!
ernie lynch says:
16 November, 2011 at 00:15
Bright enough to attempt to answer a question put to me without resorting to a playground insult, mate;-) I’ll try again…
Brother Walfrid said it would be OK to sing “up the RA” IN 2011 after a peace process in Northern Ireland?
Have you been on “Most Haunted” or something.
If you had been in the crowd when Jock Stein waded in to tell supporters to stop the chants would you have continued then as well?
The Honest Cover-Up
A bit of a double -edged question in our history.
Can I ask “Did jock’s wading into the crowd at Stirling result in IRA chanting being no longer heard in a Celtic crowd?”
“Why do you think a revered figure like Jock was not completely obeyed?”
SFTB –
Guinness/Diageo tried to market “legal poteen” some years ago. A friend of mine who was a rep gave me a bottle. It was rubbish. Nothing like the stuff ma da used to bring back from Drogheda. Now you really knew you’d taken a drink with that stuff….once you awake and had recovered the sense of sight of course…
Hamiltontim
‘Rights’ are enshrined in law, but different rights have to be balanced against each other. That’s how a democracy works.
There is not, and should not, be any law introduced to criminalise singing or chanting in support of the IRA. I think we both agree on that, but unfortunately that’s about to happen.
However, when you enter a football stadium, or a theatre or a nightclub or a shop or someone’s home, your right to free speech becomes secondary to the rules that your host chooses to (reasonably) lay down. if you don’t like those rules, you shouldn’t go in. To use a simple example, if a hun came to my house and started telling me that he believes in the justification of Internment, I am within my rights to require him to leave. He hasn’t broken the law, but the law supports my right to eject him. His right to free speech – in my home – clashes with, and is secondary to my right not to have someone in my home who I don’t want.
This doesn’t undermine free speech, it just means you should sing your political songs elsewhere.
The Honest Cover-up @ 00:11
“Surely the Celtic support can be mature enough, if not savvy enough to respect the wishes of the majority of the support and stop the chants and stop the providing ammunition to the media. ”
That’s their choice. It would be foolish of any group to ignore the feelings of the majority of the support. The next time you hear something you find offensive, you need to find like-minded people to back you up when you make your feelings known to them.
Do you know who it is that is singing/ chanting the things you find offensive – you only referred to the “Celtic Support” at the start of that sentence?
setting free the bears says:
16 November, 2011 at 00:23
1)No
2)Probably because tensions and the troubles in Northern Ireland continued for many years afterwards. The IRA were an active paramilitary group who were deemed by many in the support to have a legitimate cause. The political climate has changed massively in Northern Ireland since then. I suspect many of the fans who sang IRA songs then would no longer do so at a football match in 2011.
Well I know that people starting the chants don’t sit near me. I’ve only been to a couple of away games this season so can’t really comment on where they start there. I think it’s pretty clear to most in the stadium that the “ooh ah uo the RA” chants are coming from 111. I sit a tier above them. I don’t think confrontation is the way to resolve this.
I think the solution is for the Green Brigade to revert to “ooh ah up the Celts” and that they would be met with a massive ovation from the rest of the stadium. It’s a great song and by changing one word the whole support could be united.
Impressed by Michael Kelly in that clip. Told the truth.
Now lets be clear, IRA and PIRA are two different things and this is where Michael Kelly is right. The “romantic” association of the Boys of the Old Brigade and Republican songs which do not mention the IRA are Political and no different from fighting an historic battle in 1314 and if Celtic fans were to sing something which was Republican but didn’t use the words IRA would that be covered by the Bill and acted upon by the Police? A grey area.
For example, should they sing Aiden McAnespie which is a song which is human never mind republic or rebel, would the Police run in and make arrests or clipe to UEFA? It has strong political message but what would the likes of Eddie Smith do?
This is where these actions become sinister. If it is just the letters IRA they want rid of then I would imagine as I am no expert there are enough songs which express that viewpoint which could take the place of the two songs they appear to have an issue with. Hell we’ve even heard Paddy McCourt’s Fenian army is offending them so the real question becomes where is the line drawn? Is it the word or the notion that is illicit?
Are all of the following then entered into the cannon of offensiveness?
The Fields of Athenry
The Soldiers’ song
Aiden McAnespie
Paddy McCourt’s Fenian Army
Let the People Sing
The Irish Rover?
The Tricolour?
Republic of Ireland tops?
Boston Celtics shirts and jackets
Anything with a Shamrock on it?
If the police and a guy like Eddie Smith become the sole arbiter of what is acceptable, offensive or whatever, where will they stop?
Making the sign of the cross drives the scumbags of Scotland into a frenzy. If they report it to a cop, what does the cop do? Call Uefa? Call the SPL?Or try to arrest the culprits once they get their way and get to arrest the people they really appear to want to?
This is a complete joke as the borders and guidelines have not been identified. It is in effect a form of McCarthyism. A charge has been brought on the say so of one man who may or may not be qualified to make that call. Does he have a degree in the subject? A mandate from the Executive? Who appointed this man? He certainly wasn’t elected and nor were the MSPs elected to go with this mandate. Opposition to this nonsense is strong.
A 17 year old boy being lifted and then released because it might be a PR disaster is McCarthyism without the balls. A witch hunt minus a witch which is what it really was in the first place.
I am glad I don’t live in in the best small country in the world where holding certain views can be made illegal. Orwell would be amazed at the childishness of this type of behaviour.
Fortunes Favour Mibbes
The Ghood will prevail @ 00:27
That’s a failing argument that doesn’t apply.
Because you are gathering with 40,000 other people, you should keep your opinion to yourself?? Hardly an advert for democracy, is it?
domenico1888 says:
16 November, 2011 at 00:14
The requirement has changed to that of a chef to cook the books.
Browsing the blog over the last few days,
i repeatedly see people claiming on the behalf of the majority,
when rounding on the GB.
I must say, hats off to you all,
that is some amount of people to personally know !!!
The Good…
You were so intent on jumping down my throat that you failed to notice one thing. I didn’t say at any point that I DID sing the rebel tunes.
I no longer sing Republican songs at Celtic Park or at any away ground. It is a conscious decision that I took fairly recently for a number of reasons.
My point was that any Celtic supporter who chooses to sing these songs, that you seem to find so offensive, has the right to do so and I will support that right.
THCU
Answers very similar to those I would have given myself,
There is probably less need to “represent” at football matches nowadays.
There is less comfort to be gained by the Republican community in the North of Ireland from our songs of support.
But that need may return and future comfort may need to be offered.
That is why I favour the language of putting our songbook aside rather than the language I have heard, from some posters, of castigating the present day singers for doing exactly what we did when younger.
It’s a bit like a reformed-smoker father shouting at his son for experimenting with fags. It can sound a wee bit hypocritical.
ahhermm..away Boycott anyone?
The more you think about it, the stranger it is that someone who took part in the referee’s ‘strike’, which the dogs in the street know was in protest at Celtic questioning their authority, is in charge of policing the stadium, and is in a position to report the club to UEFA and the SPL.
Someone should be asking some very searching question about all of this.
Why is there so much surprise shown at Michael Kelly’s defense of the club?
He is an educated, articulate product of a larger community which is passionate, knowledgeable and aware of the (unfounded) fears we raise in the darker corners of Scottish society.
‘GG
setting free the bears says:
16 November, 2011 at 00:37
True. Many of them are kids. My point is that the leadership of the Green Brigade have a massive opportunity to turn this around and unite the support. Ditch the RA chants, back the team, win the league.
The Honest Cover-up @ 00:35
Confrontation is not needed, although I don’t think you need be so concerned. You’re not dealing with mindless hate-all huns. You can always write to express your concerns. But more to the point, are you making assumptions that certain chants are coming from 111 based on what you’ve heard elsewhere? If you’ve only been to a few away games (nowt wrong with that) then how do you know what’s been sung in 111 by the GB?
Ernie
Yes, but they won’t.
Fortunes Favour Mibbes says:
16 November, 2011 at 00:45
I know what’s sung by the Green Brigade at Parkhead because I have eyes and ears. I’m not sure what you are getting at. Are you saying they don’t sing “ooh ah up the RA”?
Snake Plissken says:
16 November, 2011 at 00:35
Impressed by Michael Kelly in that clip. Told the truth
spot on m8
kelly put that mckay in his place
this is an attack on our freedom of speech
bamboo says:
16 November, 2011 at 00:15
hamiltontim
I hope your not being racist. Tonto was the Lone R—-s native american companion ,not his horse .That was hiho SIlver
And ” tonto” is Spanish for “stupid”
:-(
THCU
“Ditch the RA chants”
Too strong a verb for me. It has pejorative tones.
To be honest neither you nor I will persuade anyone on here. CQN is the Old Fogeys debating wing, even if Bonty Bhoy thinks we are all dangerous radicals.
I do not want the Green Brigade silenced. I just want a few numbers quietly dropped fro the jukebox. But the argument will not be won on CQN or other webstes.
Goodnight!
macjay1
Now that bit I did know :)
Hamiltontim
You’re right, you didn’t say you sang those songs, so I apologise.
I don’t actually find the songs all that offensive, God knows I’ve sang them enough in my youth. But I am sensitive as to why other people might find them offensive, people who aren’t perhaps as acquainted with the nuances of irish history as you and I might be. Personally (I’m 39 next week) I just find them embarassing, in this day and age, because I know how decent neutral people will misconsrue us as a support, and I know how much succour it gives our enemies.
My points today have ostensibly been about removing these songs for the good of Celtic, and to the disadvantage of the hun. The club obviously agrees with me, and I think most Celtic fans do too. And I was just trying to explain how a club – any club – has the right in law to lay down specific rules. I’m sorry if it seemed that I was trying to jump down your throat, it’s just that your post was the nearest I saw after logging in this evening, and I had enjoyed debating with you earlier on.
Anyway, I need a good kip after all this debating.
Goodnight and God Bless you all
ernie lynch @ 00:41
My minds turning over with possibilities. I reckon the ones closer to the truth about what’s going on will be the GB. But being a relatively young group (not the age of the members, but the group itself), they need to keep their eyes open. There are clearly folk involved at CP who don’t like their political expression.
The Honest Cover-up @ 00:47
“Fortunes Favour Mibbes says:
16 November, 2011 at 00:45
I know what’s sung by the Green Brigade at Parkhead because I have eyes and ears. I’m not sure what you are getting at. Are you saying they don’t sing “ooh ah up the RA”? ”
—-
No, I’m asking if you go to Parkhead regularly?
Paul McBride squares up with Smart Guy?
Hmmmmmmm…..
The Ghood will prevail says:
16 November, 2011 at 00:58
You enjoyed debating with HamiltonTim…..well that’s a first on cqn! ;-)
Michael Kelly was excellent on TV tonight, just watched the youtube clip.
Scotzine has what seems a bitter piece on why Jeannette Finlay wasn’t on. I believe she is right, there isn’t an ear for the argument, although Michael Kelly did very well. Irrespective we need to decide how we are going to fight this legislation, tv/media will need to be engaged at some point.
hh
bjmac