I watched a few cup games on TV over the weekend, including the Exeter City-Liverpool and Hearts-Aberdeen games. There was a huge juxtaposition between the two Liverpool goalkeepers on show, Adam Bogdan (28), who had a nightmare for Liverpool against Exeter, and loan-ee Danny Ward (22), who was Aberdeen’s top performer against Hearts.
Within a day Jurgen Klopp recalled Ward from Aberdeen, who I’m sure will now become first deputy at Anfield. Six months ago Ward was not part of first team plans at Liverpool, who wanted Bogdan to be deputy to Mignolet. Ward took his chance, played in Europe and became a fans’ favourite at Aberdeen.
Without this loan, I’m sure Ward’s profile at Liverpool would be well below its current level. This is a great example of why you put players out on loan. Players sitting in the stands, or playing youth or reserve football, will find it very difficult to progress.
The other aspect of Danny Ward’s Aberdeen experience is that he was hooked back home after a live TV game. With the sheer number of players out on loan, I often wonder how much scrutiny of their progress parent clubs are able to deploy. Especially if it’s Celtic sending a player to Norway. It’s hard to escape the conclusion that Ward’s performance being on TV at the critical moment when Liverpool were pondering their reserve keeper position had a bearing on his career development.
For some clubs, appropriate scrutiny of players out on loan will be practically impossible (Chelsea list 30 players on loan at the moment).
If we extrapolate the way large clubs harvest players, there’s a good possibility loan players will make up the bulk of transfer activity across football going forward. Teams like Aberdeen should be using their Danny Ward experience to demonstrate what a good place they are for English Premier League teams to send players. I know a couple of years back there was some apprehension that one Scottish club were making inroads into Newcastle United’s misfits, but some cunning campaigning put paid to that.
All clubs need to learn how to feed off the squads of others, while managing the development of their own talent, not yet ready for a place in the first team. Those who do this well will flourish. Club partnerships will be the next big story in football, they will change the balance of power. At the moment there is little discernible pattern to how and where clubs loan players. This will change as clubs try to replicate the experiences of Danny Ward and Jason Denayer. Partnering with others, both up and down the food-chain, looks like the biggest efficiency gain in the game today.
Delighted at the genuine anticipation ahead of our next Scottish Cup game, which will be against either East Kilbride or Lothian Thistle. It’s a great story for grassroots football, no matter if it’s played in the Lothians or Lanarkshire.
Anyone surprised that lot were hauled into court this week by someone else looking to be paid? What a way to run your business. We know how the story will end.
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I see the usual likes emanating from our resident fascist, this one is a cracker
“Russia is indulging in military expansionism.”
A bigger lie you wont encounter in today’s geopolitical climate, while NATO expand and threaten Russian borders liars like Macjay spout unadulterated black propaganda.
Here and I thought The bitch thatcher was the one who destroyed the UK’s immigration and border control, but our resident fascist seems to have labour as the culprit, no real surprise right enough.
lies and obfuscation then refuses to answer or support his claims with any proof.
Mackay,
Seriously, change of subject, you are the master of obfuscation, we may have stopped the boats but in return we put people in pseudo concentration camps on impoverished islands that are subjected to no media scrutiny, where journalists who try to report on them are threatened with jail, where people who have worked on them previously are subject to gagging orders and where the minister in charge jokes about the islands being inundated with higher seas and refers to female journalists as ‘feckin mad witches’, well I suppose it’s a good job we are governed by the right kind of people, red or blue.
Notably, nothing about Obama?
timaloy29 on 13th January 2016 9:59 am
Chairbhoy
Loan deals are a useful tool.
…………………………
Unfortunately most of the loanees turned out to be useless tools.
Apologies, Macjay
BLUEGRASS CELT on 13TH JANUARY 2016 9:56 AM
‘Too many No voters couldnae see past their contempt for SNP ‘
###
That’s just silly.
There wasn’t an economic case for independence, and there certainly isn’t now. Salmond’s own personal SPAD said so.
That’s why there was a no vote, and it’s why the nat leadership will not be holding another referendum anytime soon, though they’ll suggest otherwise to the mugs who’ve voted for them.
Philbhoy
Some not all
It’s also important to note that a lot of loan signings are simply squad fillers. Blackett for example hasn’t had much of a chance.
Wakaso was quite good when he played.
QUONNO @ 9:53 AM, :)
TIMALOY29 @ 9:59 AM,
“Loan deals are a useful tool. It gives us access to talented players at low risk. As you say, we don’t receive a big fee for development but we don’t attach the same risk.
I genuinely believe that Ronny has favored loan deals because he wants to save his budget for players he really rates.”
Yes agreed, they are useful and we’ve had a number of examples this morning how they can work out to our advantage, also as you say, if the player doesn’t work out we minimise the risk.
Yet how do you build a squad over the medium term with these players, as the last few years have shown you don’t. Let’s face it FF is the exception and you can argue we only managed that down to the complacency of Pardew.
Let’s take Jason Denayer as an example (again:)… A loan signing that was a great success with us, he is not of sufficient quality to win a regular place with Man City, yet not only did we fail to sign him, we failed to get the loan agreement extended, what was the point?
If you are correct and Ronny is keeping his budget to secure players he really wants then fair dos… In a situation like that a couple loanees could be useful.
If by the end of this transfer window we have got our quality holding midfielder and strengthened the squad overall, in an attempt to secure the treble and prepare for UCL qualification I’ll be fine with the loanees.
But as I said earlier if we don’t strengthen with permanent players, I’ll view loanees as a holding gambit.
PHILBHOY @ 10:18 AM,
Yeah far too many:) Wasting resources.
Hail Hail
KevJ…
Good luck at the hospital!
Prayers being said for good news!
Zbyszek@ 10.52
I was of course referring to Che’s work as a doctor to the poor.
Not as a communist.
Like you say, in the east Che might be associated with communism.
In the west he is now a cultural icon….and not because he was a communist.
However, if you look at the kind of people that killed him….Bolivian and CIA operation
Id say Che was not a bad man….He tried to defend the poor….not be a general.
For that he has my respect….but not because he was a communist.
There are very few communists left….im not one of them.
By the way….Totally get where you are coming from.
HH
Morning Timland from a warming hun free mountain valley.
Macjay
A tad ironic you spouting about immigration, dearie me.
Our recent loan players
BRAAFHEID Edson
EL KADDOUR! Badr
KAMARA Diomansy
MIKU
WARNER Tony
N’GUEMO Landry
BELLAMY Craig
FORSTER Fraser ( two loan spells)
MARSHALL Scott
PERRIER-DOUMBE Jean-Joel (two loan spells)
GERSHON Rami
GRAY Michael
KEANE Robbie
BROZEK Pawel
CAMARA Henri
GUIDETTI John
DENAYER Jason
BERGET Jo Inge
TONEV Aleksander
WAKASO Murbarak
OBERSCHMIDT Max
KAMENAR Lubos
NORING Viktor
Forsters fee will pay for the others. The majority of whom were a complete waste of money.
Our free signings dwarf the above group
Our poor signings bigger than both these groups combined.
HH
Some right guid yarns of late……………..
CQN……As Good Today As It’s Always Been.
CHAIRBHOY on 13TH JANUARY 2016 10:34 AM
“Yet how do you build a squad over the medium term with these players, as the last few years have shown you don’t. Let’s face it FF is the exception and you can argue we only managed that down to the complacency of Pardew.”
The vast majority of our squad are on permanent deals. When we played Malmo in the CL qualifier (our point of failure this season) , we started with 10 players who had played at least the season before.
“Let’s take Jason Denayer as an example (again:)… A loan signing that was a great success with us, he is not of sufficient quality to win a regular place with Man City, yet not only did we fail to sign him, we failed to get the loan agreement extended, what was the point?”
Denayer was lined up to sign for us another season if we qualified for the CL. We didn’t.
“If by the end of this transfer window we have got our quality holding midfielder and strengthened the squad overall, in an attempt to secure the treble and prepare for UCL qualification I’ll be fine with the loanees.”
The only reason we would get loanees in is because we are short on numbers in a particular position. I think the squad is capable of winning the treble as it is.
Like you, I’d prefer to sign our long term targets now rather than the summer. However, it may not be possible mid-season.
Best current example of clubs working together is Juventus and Sassuolo.
Both teams are thriving as a result.
Juve have first option to buy Italy’s current hottest prospect, Sassuolo’s Domenico Berardi (despite him being an Interista).
and according to a recent article, Juve promising a similar deal, have paved the way for Sassuolo to sign a highly in demand South American player ahead of other European clubs bigger than Sassuolo.
Sassuolo this season have beaten both Juve and Inter.
As Awe Naw has proved,a very poor success rate from loan signings..brings it all back to Park and the overall scouting of players.
Chairbhoy on 13th January 2016 10:34 am
Let’s take that Denayer example again. We needed a CB.
If you can’t find one of suitable quality available to buy at the time, then surely it’s a reasonable plan to get one in on loan until you can? It’s either that or you saddle yourself with one that doesn’t fit the bill and you’ve spent part of the money you would have used to get the right one.
I’d prefer loanees not to be guaranteed 1st team players but I can also see that they can be the best option with limited use.
AWE_NAW_NO_ANNONI_OAN_ANAW_NOO on 13TH JANUARY 2016 10:50 AM
I think it’s a bit simplistic to split signings between good and bad. Especially when they are players who are dropped in for 6 months to a year before being off again.
It’s also important to note that some of these guys were there to be backups to first team players and never really played enough to have a definitive opinion on
My take:
Good players who improved the side:
Bellamy, Keane, Denayer, Guidetti, Forster
Players who we signed as a backup player and hardly played:
Oberschmidt, Kamenar, Noring, Brozek, Blackett, D Kamara, Gershon, Berget, Wakaso
Players who were alright and plugged a hole in the squad:
Warner, Doumbe, El-Kaddouri, Gray
Bad players:
Braafheid, Tonev
Decent players who it didn’t work out with:
Miku,
Good player bad attitude:
Henri Camara
I will be surprised if we sign anybody.
RD has already said, that he thinks the current squad is good enough:)
Its all BS for the papers.
Just fairy stories.
RD said we would strengthen…and no loan signings.
Lets see
Cant say i have much confidence of PL unearthing a few decent players.
We have been here before.
HH
AWE_NAW @ 10:50 AM,
“Our recent loan players…
Good post, that list brings it home, we are wasting time, money and other important resources on these guys.
As you say the list permanent players who haven’t worked out is much longer.
TIMALOY29 @ 11:02 AM,
Yes, once again I wouldn’t disagree with your post, yet if the Board don’t back the Manager this transfer window it will ring alarm bells for me.
In the summer if players such as Bitton and Rogic continue to improve we could actually be loosing first team players. Our track record suggests we’ll have some injuries, then there is the European Championship.
IMO we are being too cautious.
What Awe_Naw’s post points out is – We will have to get better at identifying players and stop trying to identify risk averse strategies.
If the Celtic FC management want to live a risk free life, why don’t they stay in bed.
When it comes to running a business and prevailing as a sports team aiming and achieving success is much more important than managing risk.
Well, that’s my take at least!
Hail Hail
Chair Boy & Blantyre Tim
————————————-
On the subjects of loanees and going backwards.
*
In days past loanees were almost always used for an emergency situation to cover for injuries and suspensions, and in the days before transfer windows, some loans were very short-term.
Now with the windows and the prospect of getting a loan for six, or, twelve months, surely it is now an important part of squad-building in the modern game.
There is no shame or stigma to having two, or three, loanees on board, and sometimes, like in the case of Fraser Forster, it will be instrumental in persuading a player to settle in Scotland on a permanent deal.
I wish the likes of Bangura, Balde, Pukki, Derk, Scepovic and latterly Cifti, had been loan deals – it would have been so much easier to get rid of them.
Celtic and the rest of Scottish football are not “going backwards” by choice, rather we are being forced by market conditions to buy and finance only what we can afford – and we can afford much less now than we could as recently as 2000.
Since 2000 the money flowing into the English game has multiplied almost one hundred times – they now pull in the top players and managers from all over the world, at the expense, with a few exceptions, of every other league in the world.
Celtic’s choice of player has been eroded to such an extent, with clubs like Burnley, Hull and Bournemouth, now able to offer fees and wages that it simply could not contemplate.
So simply put, if you can’t buy the best, second best, or even third best ingredients, then your recipe will be inferior and you are forced to shop around for bargain buys, stuff that nobody knows about, but could be good, or borrow some good stuff from those at the top who have bought too much.
Every penny that Celtic generate and bring in, goes out again – if you don’t believe that, then I am sorry to say you are either deluding yourself, or, mischief-making.
We only appear to be going backwards because financially we are being left behind – the same illusion that you get when the train on the next platform pulls out.
Unless we can move into a modern financial football set-up, with bigger TV and sponsorship returns, what else can we do other than ‘cut our cloth to suit’
Of course when money is tight and ypu are trying to make ends meet, you will make mistakes and errors of judgement – however you do not do it on purpose. Unfortnately all our dealings cannot end up like Ki, Hooper, Wilson, Wanyama, Denayer, VVD, Commons, Griffiths, Gordon, Lustig and Izzy, to name ELEVEN – but we keep trying – there are only two other alternatives – crippling debt, or, give up the ghost- btw there are some people on here who actually want us to do a Belfast Celtic and ‘throw in the towel’ – why? because the ‘Rangers’ and their edtablishment friends are corrupt – how pathetic these so-called supporters are.
Fred~Aka…………..
So you are happy that we condone a corrupt game !
What’s the point if the playing field is not level, that is the basis of all sport is it not.
CHAIRBHOY on 13TH JANUARY 2016 11:18 AM
“Good post, that list brings it home, we are wasting time, money and other important resources on these guys.”
The majority of those guys were signed as cover.
“In the summer if players such as Bitton and Rogic continue to improve we could actually be loosing first team players. Our track record suggests we’ll have some injuries, then there is the European Championship.”
We won’t be selling Biton. He just signed a new contract. Rogic is also expected to sign a new contract shortly. If he doesn’t sign on he will be sold. Hardly a massive loss.
Not every signing is made with the view that they are going to be a new Celtic hero over the next 5 years.
You might be short of a 3rd choice keeper, a 4th choice CB and a 2nd choice LB. You have nobody in mind who’s worth signing permanently. So you pick up some loans to ensure that if the worst happens, you have somebody to come in.
The majority of the signings cover that above category.
Can you say for sure the likes of Wakaso or Gershon weren’t good enough? They were signed as squad players and did alright in the handful of games they played.
We know that Berget was better than most gave him credit for.
TIMALOY29 on 13TH JANUARY 2016 11:14 AM
I was really pointing out loan , free and poor signings .. three different categories
I will put up the free signings later .. even more revealing
HH
Just read back on previous Blog. I would strongly advise against any CQNers getting involved with the MAB’s. Rumour has it they are involved in pushing drugs. Statins, Amlodipine and the like. :-)
Ronny was quoted as saying about 2 weeks ago that with any potential loan moves there has to be an option to buy. If hes undermined it does not bode well. I suppose a year long loan is possible too.
A 6 month move would be pointless for the Man City youngster, is he any more likely to get into our team than Man Citys given the system we play?
HH
“When it comes to running a business and prevailing as a sports team aiming and achieving success is much more important than managing risk.”
When it comes to running a business and prevailing as a sports team, aiming and achieving success is a function of how successful you are at managing risk.
Heard that RITG chant on Sunday and knew immediately the usual suspects blaming the Green Brigade for the flares were wide of the mark. Thats a chant that’ll never be in their repertoire, put it that way.
HH
ANTIPODEAN RED on 13TH JANUARY 2016 10:15 AM
Wow
You change the subject and complain that I say ” nothing about Obama.”
Zero drownings since the Liberal party came to power.
Zero funds for people smugglers.
On the other hand…………the Mediterranean.
But that`s O.K. isn`t it.
long story but this is
DENA29 on Paradise Forever computer
having some computer issues so I have missed a few birthdays and posts
I’m not avoiding anyone nor have I flounced (yet) only joking
so Hoopy Birthday to all belated and in the very near future xx
and dont ask why I am not logged on in own blog name I’m not ridiculing myself on the blog , technophobe am I
UTLR
HH
Bluegrass Bhoy.you would need to win over the Orange Order on Independence. They are a queer.lot.I don’t think 99%of them know is they are Scottish or Colonists.or are they proddys trying to keep us Tims in our place.as I have said Queries the lot of them.
THE EXILED TIM on 13TH JANUARY 2016 10:46 AM
Morning Timland from a warming hun free mountain valley.
Macjay
A tad ironic you spouting about immigration, dearie me.
=================================================================
I made no reference whatsoever to immigration.
Buenas noches,senor.
Nice knowing I’m know a fanatical Man City partnership supporter.
McJay
You never got back to me about that Tricolour with Tony Abbot’s face on it.
You still looking for one:)
HH
Macjay,
Once again, deflection and obfuscation, it’s your MO, plenty of others here can see right through you. Obama inherited a complete foreign policy mess from a hateful and greedy group of individuals whose intention was to ‘right’ the Middle East, they made a real good job of that. Good that there have been no drownings but there have been deaths, riots and disgraceful conditions in the Liberal concentration camps. On Narau and Christmas Island and there’s no getting away from that, even if the Government try to hide it.
Out of all the players.who came to celtic on loan.I always thought Lassad would have done a decent job for us.but like a few never had much of chance.especially under Lennon. who is on a shortly peg at Bolton. Couldn’t understand him taking over there.
TIMBHOY3
Maybe NL prefers Bolton, to being sent bombs and assaulted at Tynecastle….not to mention the death threats.
NL is well out of it….even if he is sacked at Bolton.
Picnic compared to this rancid cesspit of bigotry.
Good luck to NL.
He will do ok.
HH
There are good signings and bad signings, whether permanent or loan. However Jason Denayer was an example of a “good” loan signing, that created a problem for us.
Central defence is a key area of the team, that dictates position and tempo of the entire team. Losing Denayer, compounded by the simultaneous departure of his defensive partner, affected the entire team in a profoundly negative fashion.
Centre half and central midfield are positions that should be filled by permanent players. These positions are too important to the shape and tempo of the team, to be entrusted to loanees. The entire team suffers if their loans cannot be converted into permanent signings.
Strikers (ref:Keane, Ballamy), and full backs (Gray) are the kind of positions that the loss of a player does not adversely affect the whole team, and these are the areas which should be targeted for loan signings.