SPFL chief executive, Neil Doncaster, is clear on the subject of offensive singing at football games: “It remains the SPFL’s position that if it can be established that clubs have done everything required in overall management of the event pre-match, during the game and post-match then they have no case to answer”.
This may be the case, but if clubs fail to communicate appropriate instructions to fans after one transgression, which is quickly followed by a second transgression, Doncaster’s defence is moot. The club has failed to do “everything required” pre-match and post-match, and is guilty under the rules, if applied.
Doncaster has employed a rhetorical technique. When faced with a difficult scenario, make a statement which is in itself true, but the parameters of which do not match the scenario.
The chief executive of the Scottish Professional Football League’s comments this morning appear like an attempt to protect a member club from the League’s own rules. He is paid to ensure rules are applied, not negated.
It is no business of his to defer responsibility to the police, or the Justice Ministry, which concocted this inept Offensive Behaviour Act in order to “equalise” criminality, where it didn’t exist, but will not lift a finger on this issue.
What do you know about Andy McAtee? He signed for Celtic from Mossend Hibs in 1910 and left in 1924, having played 438 games on the right wing, scoring 75 goals. He won six league titles and four Scottish Cups and was one of the earliest Celtic heroes. During the Great War he fought in the Alps, and in Haig’s bloody field in the Somme.
When he, and other members of our first genuinely great team, retired, Celtic found it impossible to replace them. We didn’t win another six titles until Inter manager, Helenio Herrera, watched our title win in May 1967.
The Celtic Graves Society mark his final resting place at Kilsyth Cemetery (G5 0TA) at 12:00 on Saturday 28 February. After a graveside blessing, there will be a Q&A with Jim Craig, Tom Boyd and Pat McCluskey, at The Curling Stone pub, High Craigends, Kilsyth. If you can make it along and support the great work of the Society, get there.
846 Comments- Pages:
- «
- 1
- 2
- 3
- 4
- 5
- 6
- 7
- 8
- 9
- ...
- 23
- »
RobertTressell
15:05 on 24 February, 2015
As a matter of tactics I would be encouraging a ceasefire on the Ra songs at away games.
We all know they are waiting to pounce on it.
Incidentally the most republican people I know were always the least likely to sing the songs at the games….. Reason being? Dunno just an observation……
….
Having grown up in Belfast during the troubles,my view is this -.
I was lucky enough not to lose anybody close but did have friends who lost family members.
It was a powder keg ready to explode and the North is a much fairer place now (wouldn’t be difficult). I remember the whole period now as a time of sadness.
Perhaps, a football match which should be a time of joy isn’t the best place to sing songs referencing that era.
AS DOWN THE GLEN ONE EASTER MORN
TO A CITY FAIR RODE I!
Chippybhoy
great post
HH
THERE ARMED LINES OF MARCHING MEN
IN SQUADRONS PASSED ME BY
scottishleaf
Magic! Keep up the winning routine for match day.
LB
Jungle Jim Hot Smoked
16:14 on
24 February, 2015
JFH said:
“One way to try to sort out sectarian singing would be to say that the next game after a club have been found guilty should be played behind closed doors.”
That works OK when the vast majority are culpable. I would not be too chuffed if Celtic Park were to be closed because a small number sang an Irish song that wasn`t even sectarian!
Which is exactly what would happen.Too many shouting their mouths of before engaging their brain.We will always be included in “Whataboutery”.Be careful what we wish for.
Turkeybhoy
It’s a risky road to go down. You will find that certain people will find everything about Celtic FC sectarian.
LB
f.a.b. virgil
13:10 on 24 February, 2015
Thanks for that, it confirmed my thoughts.
Eddie in KirkM,
I’m not justifying NBM – they can do that themselves – they employ 1 person (as far as i know) – the idea of NBM was to eliminate all religious prejudices from Scottish society – a lofty ideal, and probably not realistic – remember this was before the internet existed.
Cara’s family got terrible hate mail (yes, cretins can write) posted to their house.
Unfortunately NBM used a guy called McLean (I think) for PR – he was one of her neighbours and volunteered his service for free – but he also did or had done Celtic’s PR so the organisation was immediately seen to be a front for Celtic / catholics.
It never really recovered its credibility from the RFC side.
I agree re the word “hun” – in no way is it a religious slight on Protestants – however if certain “Protestants” believe it is, then don’t use it. Sevconians annoys them more. Surely we are better than them? It gives them wriggle room to complain.
I follow u on twitter and know the grief you get/got from the Sevco mob, so not looking to cause offence, just putting forward (clearly not well) NBM’s original values.
and how annoyed i was re EL and his pathetic comments about something he clearly
knows nothing about.
macanbheatha Oscar Abú – agree – current funding comes from Scot Govt, does mean original ideals might be affected, but it was always about all areas of sectarianism not just anti-catholic.
I believe now that NBM goes round primary schools to educate children re religious tolerance.
I’ve got nothing to do with NBM, in case anyone thought otherwise.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-lancashire-31610440
Former Blackburn Rovers and Scotland footballer Colin Hendry has been charged with a drink-drive offence.
Lancashire Police said Mr Hendry was stopped by police officers in a blue Ford Focus on Church Road, Lytham at 01:15 GMT on Saturday.
Mr Hendry, of Coopers Row, Lytham, was charged and bailed to appear before Blackpool Magistrates on 4 March.
His playing career took in Manchester City, Rangers, Bolton Wanderers, Coventry and Blackpool.
The Dundee-born central defender captained his country and played in both the 1996 European Championship and the World Cup two years later.
Hendry was also a member of the Blackburn side which won the Premier League title in 1994-95.
Since then he has managed Blackpool and Clyde.
LB
PeteTheBeat
16:41 on
24 February, 2015
You know I’ve been mulling something about in my head as I’ve dipped in and out of reading the debate today.
I bet it would be relatively easy to argue that BOTOB is not only a lament of lost friends but also a song of regret that the political route wasn’t sought. After all, it talks of the dark days and the deaths of all the fine young men.
Now let me be clear, you wouldn’t need to believe that to be true, but as an argument in a court of law it would be quite interesting.
I’m not really at home with the rebel songbook but are their any songs (a simple yes or no will do, no need to name them) from it that revel in the death and slaughter of the ‘enemy’ the way theirs do. If there are I’ve not really heard them. All of ours seem to be lamentations.
Nil By Mouth is the authority on sectarianism, is it?
How many errors are there in this one sentence from its website:
“An element of supporters following premier league clubs such as Glasgow based Rangers FC and Celtic FC, and Edinburgh’s Hibernian and Hearts use songs, chants and banners on match days to express abuse or support towards the Protestant or Catholic faiths.”
SpanishJohn
16:37 on
24 February, 2015
turkeybhoy
Re: nilbymouth
Their definition of what is sectarian can be found here http://nilbymouth.org/resources/history/
According to a few of the Dark side I’ve engaged with on Twitter this is apparent source of reference for what is sectarian and what isn’t.
Now you know. No legal or governmental reference just that.
I was not advocating NBMs assertions on what was sectarian or not.I was merely outlining the fact that there are no rules at the moment to punish clubs.Not all the idiot Doncasters fault.The clubs make the rules.NBM are wanting this changed.For me,this would not help our club one bit.
LiviBhoy
16:53 on
24 February, 2015
Turkeybhoy
It’s a risky road to go down. You will find that certain people will find everything about Celtic FC sectarian.
LB
I agree.As I have already stated.Very dangerous road.
chippybhoy
Your posts about the death of Mark Scott and the work of NBM are clearly heart felt and emotive.
A few of us walked through Brigton on that awful day shortly before Mark was murdered and my mate was on a bus that stopped beside him just after the event.
It remains a truly evil and vicious deed carried out purely because the young man was a Celtic supporter.
I have no doubt that NBM are well intentioned but I don’t believe they’ve done anything to address the root cause of the sectarian problem.
Sevcovites don’t sing FFin’ sectarian songs – FACT:
“in response to the latest lies from neil doncaster , the man in charge of scottish league football , can we have a definitive list of anti-catholic songs that [Sevco] fans sing ?
certainly in the past , a very long time ago we , as a , group , sang a ditty that stated ‘Rangers and catholics don’t go’ . this song hasn’t been heard at stadiums for a number of years ‘
now maybe i’m getting on but i can’t recall any other song that expresses ‘anti-catholic’ sentiments .”
——
“According to some… TBB and No pope of Rome were the 2 main sectarian chants on Friday.
I disagree on the fact that I don;t think either are sectarian….”
——
“The problem is any song that is about Catholics has a wider impact as the Catholic faith is worldwide and not limited to Celtic Fans so we will always get pulled up for it.”
——
“Would go as far to say there never has been despite what the alliance of various,lefty,pc,anti Protestant,British hating groups and inviduals that have taken control of Scottish society would have us believe.”
——
” The [P]ope is head of a foreign state and that foreign state has way too much say in what happens in this country as they have the ear of the Scottish Government so we could say its ‘political’.”
——
“Speaking for myself it’s sung as a celebration of my culture and traditions.
Other people that have let our various haters set the agenda may buy into it being anti kafflik.
Those proud of that way of life and upbringing don’t view it that way at all.
No f****n hater of Rangers and the wider cultural society of many of our fans should ever set the agenda as to what is and what is not acceptable given they are only driven by sheer blind hatred.”
——
“its not………[NPOR is] about a Protestant ( us ) being free from the Papal head
not a attack in anyway but praise of our own freedom”
——
“It may well be anti catholic, but I don’t think it should be classed as sectarian.
The same as I don;t think FTP is either, its simply someone exercising their right of free speech and free opinion that they quite frankly don’t like the [P]ope, for whatever reason. It should be no more illegal that saying F*** the SFA etc…”
——
“[Sevco] have no anti catholic songs anymore.
[Sevco] fans in general could not give a sh*t about religion but they do despise Fenians.
I’m proud to say I’m one who does.”
Dena29
Happy Birthday to Josh and me…….I’m 65 today !
weeminger –
“I’m not really at home with the rebel songbook but are their any songs (a simple yes or no will do, no need to name them) from it that revel in the death and slaughter of the ‘enemy’ the way theirs do.”
‘Follow me up to Carlow’ made famous by Planxty in the 70’s –
“From Tassagart to Clonmore,
There flows a stream of Saxon gore
And great is Rory Og O’More
At sending loons to Hades
White is sick and Gray is fled,
And now for black Fitzwilliam’s head
We’ll send it over, dripping red
to Liza and her ladies”
It does refer to events back in 1580 though, and is not on the repertoire at CP AFAIK :-)
HOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOPY Birthday young Josh Bhoy
Ger 57
. Furthermore, the offending club would not be licensed for Europe on the 1st offence. This should be a deterrent for any team’s fans.
In Sevco’s case, a European licence is kind of irrelevant!
Maybe Mr Doncaster should provide some clarity around “everything required…” What exactly do the SPFL “require”member clubs to do to prevent offensive behaviour in grounds?
I think it might assist member clubs if he provided specific detail around what the SPFL require member clubs to do to prevent the chanting of offensive songs.
Specifically what does he require the senior management at Ibrox to do to prevent offensive behaviour on Friday?
I would like to see this documented.
I would also like to see evidence of what action Ibrox have taken to prevent offensive/ criminal chanting at matches their club participates in.
Finally what specific sanctions does Mr Doncaster have in mind should the management at Ibrox fail the “everything required” test?
The Bhoy Josh 17 and westies 65
Happy birthday bhoys
PeteTheBeat
That one’s banned as well. Faich McHugh o’Byrne was the Martin McGuinness of his day!
Turkeybhoy
I wasn’t having a go at you or NBM. Just stating that nilbymouth appears to be the go to reference for the deluded. Hopefully they’ll be successful in effecting change, although the SFA and SPFL will only do what suits them IMO and they’re not exactly known for being even remotely open to change.
As gordon_j alludes to it’s hardly a credible source. Maybe it’s all the stickies have got?
HH
SJ
ChippyBhoy
16:54 on 24 February, 2015
Are you going to say what reason you have for calling me bigoted?
Or am I just to assume that you don’t know what the word means?
Here’s what SDM had to say on the subject of TBB in March 2008:
Murray sends sectarianism warning
Rangers chairman David Murray says the consequences for the club of fans continuing to sing sectarian songs will be grave.
The Ibrox club were fined by Uefa last season for “discriminatory chanting” and have been warned that any repeat will be more seriously punished.
“The supporters need to show a certain level of integrity and behaviour in the grounds,” Murray told Rangers TV.
“But, if they don’t, be prepared for the consequences.”
Uefa has asked Rangers to announce the banning of such songs before every home game, one of a number of steps Murray has taken to attempt to eradicate the problem.
“We are creating initiatives for match days, we’ve been meeting supporters’ groups, we’ve been meeting editors of newspapers, we have been pleading with the fans to show respect,” Murray added.
“There is only so much the club can do. We can only reiterate it before every match.
“But, if we have a small group of fans who want to continue to behave in such a manner, they’re doing no service to this club whatsoever and I am sorry to say it, but in the modern world we live in, that behaviour is totally unacceptable.
“You can only receive so many warnings and we will receive a stiffer penalty (if this goes on) of which every decent ordinary Rangers fan will suffer, so I just ask those people who wish to continue to sing such songs to please stop.
“You are jeopardising the future of our club.”
============================================================
There is a lesson there for the current TRIFC board, and it might also be instructional for the SPFL.
Back to lurking for me, before Alfie Noakes appears!!
Hoopy Birthday young Josh&young Westies HH
I find it very strange that Tonev can get a 7 match ban for racial abuse solely on the belief of Logan’s word yet Sevco fans get away with racial and sectarian abuse live on TV
Many happy returns young star Josh and Westie.
ernie lynch
17:18 on
24 February, 2015
Would you say that insulting somebody based on their perceived societal class was discriminatory?
If that is the case would that fall into the definition of a bigoted insult?
Can one use a bigoted insult without actually being a bigot?
In that case, if the offended party or third party does not know the first party, are they at fault for perceiving the first party to be a bigot?
Such a minefield. I’m off to get the bus.
UTLR
http://youtu.be/3rK_280ebIY
Themaestro72
Do you honestly think tonev would have received the same punishment if he was playing for Sevco?HH
I’m sure Doncaster will be asking Sevco if they’ve:
released a club statement condemning racist and sectarian chants
put anything in a match programme condemning racist and sectarian chants
had announcements over their tannoy system condemning racist and sectarian chants
made any attempt to identify the people responsible these racist and sectarian chants
John Beaton for Sundays MIB.
Any previous ?
gordon_j backing neil lennon
My favourite bit of the NBM piece is ‘As society becomes increasingly secular, the term is often also used to describe a type of social identity, that is about things other than a particular set of religious beliefs.’
How’s that for a catch-all? So, any expression of ‘social identity’ is sectarian. Chinese New Year? Morris Dancing? Patron Saints days?
I suppose it just shows how difficult it is to define.
HH
SJ
Evening fellow Tims, reply from SSB today:
Dear Mr
24/02/14
Ref: Clyde 1 Superscoreboard
Thank-you for your email regarding Clyde 1 Superscoreboard. We take on board all feedback and like to hear from our listeners.
Your email is about comments made by one of our pundits Hugh Keevins regarding singing and sectarianism at football matches in Scotland.
I can tell you that at no time did Hugh say the Irish national anthem is sectarian and nor did he mean that.
He was merely asking the relevance of singing a country’s national anthem at a European football match.
He has clarified his comments in his weekly column for Clyde1.com and you can find that column here.
http://www.clyde1.com/vip/keevins/moved-on-but-not-forward/
Kind regards
Lorraine Herbison
Head of News and Sport, Scotland
Bauer City Network | Northern England & Scotland
T: 0141 565 2345
M: 07711 161 759
Hail Hail
Ernie,
You don’t seem too keen to answer my questions – meet me on Sunday and we can sort it.
HT – I’m not advocating NMB, but at least they are trying to do something – education in primary schools is a start. It will take a long long time before anti-catholic leanings in this country are a thing of the past – Monaghan 1900 posts from FF show that.
Aff oot tae the bhoy’s footie training in this awful weather.
HH troops