Neil Doncaster has uttered the words “Prima Facie” more often than any other figure in public life since February when Celtic Quick News first asked if Rangers EBT payments were declared to the football authorities, almost always after the words “we don’t know if there is a”. While we are all assuming the SPL have now established Rangers have a case to answer for illegally registering footballers for over a decade, it’s important to hear the words.
Rangers refused to submit information to the SPL for three months and only did so under the duress of a deadline, but we don’t know what they have submitted. I have been concerned that Rangers would simply try to brass the entire episode out, submit the contracts the SFA and SPL already had, and deny having any record of side agreements.
Consider the clubs modus operandi in recent months and years. Sir David Murray provided cover in March, categorically denying side contracts existed, while the current men in charge have been too busy to spare much time researching the issue. A response of “We don’t have any information” would not have surprised me. Rangers submitting full information – including details on the side letters which exist but which the BBC do not have – would surprise me.
The SPL should have realised months ago they would get nothing from Rangers without a deadline but they are in awkward position if the answer from the club is not what is expected. It’s far from clear that they can take evidence from the BBC and may require information from the First Tier Tribunal verdict to substantiate what everyone knows. The verdict is unlikely to confirm any names.
Until Mr Doncaster says “Prima Facie evidence exists” we should not assume this episode is on track to be dealt with.
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Doncaster looks more like a Minty insider with each passing minute.. From Alex Salmond to Doncaster, Teflon Minty is making sure nothing sticks on him..
Shameful..
Sick of the corruption..
HH
This place should just be renamed Xavs Quick News!
God bless Big Doc!
Paul, thanks for the excellent article as always…..
Here I was thinking all this time that Prima Facie was Latin for a big jobbie……
At least this what it all smells like.
HH
duncaster used prima facie to impress but uttering it 10 weeks into an investigation just confirmned what ah suspected on first view of him.
An eejit.
I’ve been reading Brogan Rogan & Neil R’s essays again and feeling grateful,and relieved in a strange way,that they write on our behalf so eloquently.
If RFCia had such voices they could have avoided all their woes.
Too bad…..I blame their schools….
HH!
Sannabhoy
21 (plus interest and penalties) is it?
The Gorilla is too busy right now, got a new job over in Govan :-).
Bhoys
Does anyone have details of any charities that may be looking for kid’s football strips.
Clearing out my son’s old ones and there’s a mix of Hoops and many other team strips , all in various boys sizes, and all in excellent condition.
Grateful if anyone can post any details , otherwise I’ll drop them at local charity shop.
HH
j67 on 1 June, 2012 at 12:41 said:
I know how you both feel.
I also got a red letter from HMRC back in February.
As I knew I had posted my self assessment online in time I thought HMRC were in the wrong with their demands.So I phoned them up to put them straight.
I was kept on hold for 50mins, the anger in me building all the time.
When my call was eventually taken it turned out I’d missed some small print and my self assessment was 1month late.
So I was told I owed them money and I had 2 choices…
1…pay it in full there and then
or
2…pay it up starting with the 1st payment there and then
The sum I owed was £143…not thousands..not millions…just £143.
When I paid the money and hung up the phone the anger really kick in, I thought about phoning back to ask why ‘our hero’ was allowed to run up millions of debt, then realised I’d be on hold for almost an hour again so didn’t.
It still angers me why the huns could stick 2 fingers upto HMRC for soo long before they done anything about it.
HMRC obviously knew the history of that club by the time CW took over, they also knew the tax dodging history of CW.
So surely if even 1 month went by with no PAYE or NIC from the huns they should have acted.
You’re certainly right that someone from HMRC deserve’s a good bitch slappin for allowing the millions to build up.
I have now noticed the small print I missed is now large print and unmissable on this years self assessment….too late for me ;(
LET THE PEOPLE PAY THEIR TAXES!!
Miki67
Probably did, voice of reason is not made welcome
Monaghan1900
There’s not too many brain cells to share between them and ragin is about all that they are good for.
Came out of the last game of the season thinking thank God I am lucky to be a Celtic supporter with everything that it brings. A club and fellow support to be truly proud of!!
Oh how the other half live!!!!
BRTH and NeilR have been consistently brilliant at keeping it real. (and P67 of course!!)
Lennybhoy… @ 13:15,
They were good lads, I remember we all watched the rumble in the jungle around that time, really felt for them losing their Dad so young.
Wonder if they carried on with the aul’ guitar and accordion, I remember we were all reading through The Lord of The Rings.
Not much of a Facebook guy to be fair, but glad to hear they got on ok – retirement – good grief.
Thanks for the memories…
I don’t know if this has been raised before, I’m sure it must have been, but could the stalling and time wasting by the SFA be because RFC had posted the the contracts with the side letters with the SFA, who filed them away because they were Rangers and they are now concerned that it has all came out.
No?
Dontbrattbakkinanger-Does he work at ra peepils supermarket?
For those who, like me, have been working hard all morning and have not heard…the Guardian is reporting that Paul Lambert is the new Aston Villa manager.
Shay Given is quoted as being delighted that “there is somebody Celtic minded in charge after the fiasco that was EBT-laden Eck McLeish”
….well, when I say “quoted”……
Sannabhoy……….happy birthday 2U
Been trying to get in touch..re:donation for the weans ticket(us)
Can you advise details for same.
I will be scooting up the road shortly (fromm Teesside) will sort out laters….
Paddy T
Norwich Chief Exec David McNally bigging up Celtic FC and the fans after last week’s game on SSN.He said any approach for Lenny,If that was who they wanted , would be through DD…….
OK. Let’s be clear. Prima Facie does not mean watertight or absolute proof, it means ON THE FACE OF IT/on first APPEARANCE.
Who said that the SPL could not take ‘evidence’ from the BBC or indeed anyone else as long as that evidence is sound?
BBC – Copies of side letters, e-mails and communications purporting to show contractual matters related to players paid through an offshore trust.
ON THE FACE OF IT this looks like something to INVESTIGATE.
The PRIMA FACIE CASE is already made. The SPL CEO should now be undertaking an INVESTIGATION to determine whether what has appeared ON THE FACE OF IT has more evidential material that takes this further. That INVESTIGATION, might then seek DIRECT ACCESS to all the records and paperwork of RFC(IA) in order to establish and SECURE evidence.
The SPL CEO is DELIBERATELY stalling an INVESTIGATION. If Harper MacLeod have not already told him the case exists then their bill should be returned as INCOMPETENT.
The SPL CEO should be challenged as to why he is DELIBERATELY stalling an INVESTIGATION.
HH
Avocado on 1 June, 2012 at 12:59 said:
I was there from Sept 79 (1st Year) through to spring 1982 (1/2 way through 3rd year)
You would have been recruited then by the incomparable Fr. J. Murphy?
Before I eff off to my cot, best wishes for the weekend to HAMILTON TIM and his liver in Newcastle-I spent some time there and it was G-R-E-A-T.
Surprised I can remember to be honest…………
And to JOBO for his wee trip to Arran-best of luck negotiating Ardrossan.
Rather you than me(though The Castlehill Vaults is a great pub)
And finally to Sannabhoy-happy 48th,and I was at that gig too.
Always loved QUEEN from early days,and THE TEARDROP EXPLODES were superb as the back-up.
Have a pleasant evening,folks.
I should add that Paul67’s unceasing efforts are worthy of the highest praise,too. I guess I’ve become complacent with waking up every day and being kept well informed on such a regular basis. This site has kept the spotlight well trained on that lot and made sure they cannot slink off under cover of darkness.
There are other incisive sites dealing with all things relevant to Celtic,but this is the ‘premier cru’.
And because I don’t want to be misconstrued I need to add that this is not sycophancy,but sincere appreciation.
If I still lived in Glasgow I could associate on a much more regular basis with the Celtic Community,but I don’t,so this site is a lifeline.
Anybody seen Cadizzy? (thumbsup)
The only time a Butcher’s Apron looked semi-decent ,was on Johnny Rotten and The Sex Pistols,when they were well and truly taking the p£$$ out of the establishment.
So, was I first with the Lambert news?
Also, I can report from the world of current affairs that De Gaulle’s deid.
Good afternoon CQN!
Any of the Horsey Bhoys on the blog at the moment? I saw yesterday from TTT, I think it was, that some CQNRs will be at Hamilton Park Races next Thursday. Since I will be paying one of my rare visitsfrom Germany to Alba btween Tuesday the 5th and Tuesday the 12th, I thought I might go to the races on the Thursday. I’ll be staying with my sister in Bothwell, so its a 10 minute walk. Although I went to school in Hamilton, I have never been to the racecourse. Any idea about when we can meet up and where?
Thanks in advance for any info that can be provided.
HH Gerry PrimaFacieCSC
Upside down man @ 13.51
exactly,great post.
For anyone who missed this this morning. Another insightful post from BRTH.
Brogan Rogan Trevino and Hogan supports Kano 1000 on 1 June, 2012 at 08:42 said:
Good Morning.
Can I ask that for just a moment you stop reading this blog altogether— and at the end of this very sentence just take a look at your surroundings and where you are exactly.
Now,if you have done that and had a good look around I have a question- and it is this.
When you woke up this morning, did you find that you were where you expected to be?
Yes?
No?
Were there any surprises? Did you find that you were in fact somewhere else completely– other than where you expected to be?
I suspect not.
The reason that I ask these questions is because I simply wish to review where some folk are this morning– and by the end of this missive I will leave you to judge whether or not various people find themselves somewhere completely and utterly unexpected– and whether or not others are not surprised at all at where they are.
Let’s start in the middle.
Some 4 weeks or so ago I took a phonecall from what turned out to be an angry man. Now the fella concerned is a friend with a passing interest in things a la Rangers FC and the SFA/SPL.
It was soon clear that he was more than a little annoyed– in fact the words he used were “i’m disgusted!”.
The reason for his ire was the seemingly planned, and at the time perceived as unstoppable, proposal to allow a Newco headed by Bill Miller to make fresh application to the SPL for entry into next year’s league in the event of his proposed CVA being rejected. In this way Rangers FC would survive with history intact but with debt dumped– should it come to that. The best of all worlds was the way that this plan was trumpeted.
Many of you will recall that Bill Miller was the surprise winner of the seemingly endless bidding war with all the favourites– The Blue Knights, Brian Kennedy, Bill Ng etc– seeming to fall at the 23rd fence and leaving Miller as the Foinavon of the day.
He was paraded in the winner’s enclosure by Duff & Phelps and the big push was on to bring Rangers out of Admin via one of his two solutions.
You will recall also that it was widely reported that Miller was seeking assurances from the SPL and possibly the SFA that Rangers would not meet with further sanctions, with the hidden threat being that he would walk away if he could not get such assurances and the result would be Armageddon for the whole of Scottish Football. After all Ally and Sandy were telling us that the SFA were harming their club by daring to inflict severe punishment– and the health or otherwise of that club was paramount— to them, to Duff and Phelps, and to the rest of Scottish football.
Whether all of this was totally true or not– it was this scenario that was widely pedalled in the wider press, encouraged by Duff & Phelps, and promoted by Super Ally with the result that the Ibrox faithful turned up in numbers for the last game of the season at Ibrox— and so giving the Gers some much needed additional income.
The Blues were saved! Hurrah for the blues! We could all move on and be positive yeah?
A solution for D&P, a solution for Rangers, a solution for the SFA & SPL– although maybe not so much of a solution for HMRC, the clubs that are owed money, the ordinary creditors and just about anyone else.
That is where they stood– just a few weeks ago.
Imagine then, that you have been sleeping for those weeks and having just woken up you want to see the outcome of that plan. Boy– have you woken up to a different vista? You have woken up in a completely different land.
Miller is gone completely– chased away by figures examined under a degree of due dilligence which brought a shock to the system, and by a fanbase who made it clear that the Yank had better go home.
The Blue Knights and Kennedy have been shown the door by D&P in favour of someone who had not been heard of before at all, and who is apparently offering more than they ever put on the table—- although they dispute that. Either way, it is clear that they were not coming to the table laden with gold for the creditors– or the club!
As for the suggestion that there will be no further sanctions– well the sanctions of the Independent Judicial Panel of first instance — transfer embargo, maximum fines and all— were upheld on judicial appeal– despite a vociferous, angry, and public series of protests from the club, its officials and its fans.
D&P however sought Judicial review of this process at the Court of Session in Edinburgh and succeeded at least in having the transfer ban declared null & void– only for the matter to be referred back to the appeal panel to impose what sanctions are available in law. These include the very real prospect of suspension or disqualification from the league. Further, the very process of going to court has brought about the direct attention of FIFA who have insisted and will insist on the proper regulation and punishment of a club who dares to try and deflect and detract from its supreme jurisdiction.
Warning- If you want to be a FIFA registered club you play by FIFA rules. If you don’t like it– go find another body to play under.
As a result, Rangers seem certain to face further sanction. Such sanctions seem to emanate from on high with the SFA having no choice to be party to following these through.
Further, those clubs in Scotland who appeared to be in favour of the Miller SPL fastrack plan for a Newco, have at least in part lost their appetite for supporting a rogue club managed by a Newco. The idea of a Newco with no penalties now seems like a far off country.
The clubs have decided that they will deal with any Newco application with the power to impose penalties on a case by case basis. Gone are the ideas of no penalties or penalties that could only be imposed should all this happen again in the future. Gone is the idea that even if there were to be any penalties they would be fixed and stated in advance– so that our preferred bidder– a creature of myth and legend— could know exactly where they stand as they go about trying to raise funds and investors.
All that anyone can say now is that Rangers will face some kind of sanction should further rule breaches be discovered, and those breaches will be dealt with on a case by case basis.
That creates more than a degree of uncertainty for investors does it not?
And how would Rangers fare on a case by case basis?
Well the Court of Session stint was not good.
The BBC documentary clearly showing the EBT situation for all those players and staff…. is not good.
The fact that no decision has been made on penalties prior to the SPL lawyers eventually receiving 5 boxes of documentation relating to dual contracts etc– is not good.
The fact that no decision has been made on penalties prior to the decision on the big tax case– is not good.
The fact that the CVA offer appears very VERY weak, seems to have little chance of success, and doesn’t do much for football clubs that are owed money— is not good.
The fact that Craig Wyte has said that he will simply not pay any fines imposed on him– is not good.
The fact that there is widespread speculation on further irregularities somewhere down the line… is not good.
The fact that the HMRC debt appears to have increased since the appointment of Duff & Phelps….. is .. eh… NOT GOOD!
In short— If D&P, Rangers PLC, Rangers FC, Ally McCoist or anyone else involved with Rangers thought they were heading for relative safety a few weeks ago aboard the good ship Miller, then they find today that the sea beneath them and the landscape in front of them has shifted considerably.
And all of this is at their own doing.
The SFA and the SPL are also in a very different place. Where weeks ago they were openly talking about what is good for the game as a whole and the financial disaster that may befall Scottish Football if they were to punish Rangers properly, the very possibility that FIFA might take an interest and come in and burn the blazers if the errant club is not dealt with properly deems that envisaged financial disaster as an irrelevance.
Yesterday the SFA stated that the actions of Rangers FC were regrettable, but more importantly intimated that :
“With our Annual General Meeting taking place on Wednesday, June 6, it will be appropriate to remind member clubs that by very dint of their membership of the Scottish FA, they accept and abide by the Articles of Association.”
In other words, on June 6th— long before any appellate judicial panel has reconvened to discuss Lord Glennie and his findings—– any club wishing to be a member next season will be asked to accept the earlier ruling by the Independent Judicial Panel or……….. seek another umbrella.
My guess is that if the appeal tribunal do ever convene as a result of Lord Glennie’s decision the quest for another umbrella will be deemed to be a lengthy one. The SFA cannot influence the decision of an independent judicial panel—but they can in general meeting determine what membership means and amounts to…. And if you are not prepared to sign up to the rules then there is the door!
Now I wonder—just who will attend that meeting for Rangers?
Further, the appeal panel has been told that in law it MUST follow certain specific sanctions. Given that the only result that would suit Rangers would be no further sanctions at all other than the fine, it would appear that Rangers ( through D&P ) have done nothing other than ensure that there will be further- probably stiffer- sanctions than they faced before.
The precise opposite of the Miller plan!
In short, wherever Rangers- D&P- Preferred bidder No 2,3 or 4 thought they were a few weeks ago, today they are in an entirely different place.
However that is nothing– absolutely nothing in comparison to others.
I have banged on before about Roddy Forsyth stating that Rangers would nip in and out of Administration only to resume normal service.
David Murray scoffed at the tax case, citing reliance on professional opinion to exonerate Rangers and MIH, with a view to persuading all who would listen that Rangers are in the clear no matter what HMRC say, and that there was– and never would be– any real danger to the club!
No one believes that– absolutely no one. Nobody expects the FTT to come out and say that Rangers got everything correct and that Hector is talking nonsense and that no tax is due.
Further still, the explanation given to the MSM by Billy Dodds for his EBT payment is, to be quite frank, the strangest explanation for being paid a sum of money from an EBT imaginable especially given the mechanism for working such a scheme.
” Hello, Mr Trustee, can I get a loan of my own money please on which the tax has already been paid?”
” And what makes you think we have any money of yours Billy Boy?”
” Mr Murray personally told me that you had it when I was going to Dundee Utd. I am due it contractually and he said that Rangers have paid all the tax on it for me so I get it Net of tax so can I have it please?”
” Absolutely, just sign this loan application and tell us where you want it sent.”
Such a tale is the stuff of nonesense. Somewhere there is now open and admitted fabrication by someone and either that someone never believed that any of this would ever come out in the open. But there it is.
The whole situation is barely recognisable from where we were a few weeks ago. Rangers are in a far more dangerous place, with little money and at every single turn they face a situation where some body or institution seeks to investigate further or dole out punishments and sanctions with no guarantee whatsoever that we are at the end of the penalty cycle.
There are no accounts, they have missed deadlines, they have discounted and rewritten the value of player contracts and have generally pissed off just about everyone in football.
Rangers Football Club are in an awful place.
Duff & Phelps on the other hand have an outstanding charge of at least £5.5 M in connection with the “Professional Services” which they have rendered to a company which they initially expected to exit Administration by the end of March 2012– if you recall their first press conference.
Craig Whyte sits with an as yet unchallenged first charge over Ibrox and Murray Park,—– and in that sense he has woken up exactly where he thought he would be each and every morning for the past year.
When and by how much Rangers PLC and Rangers FC are punished by the SFA, the SPL, HMRC, Companies House, The stock exchange and anyone else is somewhat inevitable and irrelevant. Whether Rangers cease to play football, play in the third division, or play in any division with under 18′s is also irrelevant.
There is no prospect of the creditors ultimately being paid even before the Big Tax case
( which of course is not a problem according to Murray ) and there is every prospect of the judgement in that case leading to massive further investigation and enquiry.
No– the only thing that is relavant this morning, and the only view from whatever bedroom window you look out of is……. IBROX.
No matter what happens when, how or where, Craig Whyte and Duff and Phelps will rely on the belief that someone at sometime will want Ibrox and will be willing to pay for it even if it can only be used to play football at some potentially distant point in the future.
That is now all we are talking about. Nothing else.
What do the Grant Thornton audited accounts value the the stadium at again?
Aye — Moonbeams, another planet and fantasyland— that is where they have always been right enough—- but that might take some explaining further down the road.
COP land road?
Paddy Turner ,
HH and Thanks. Dead easy contact details , contactus@thekanofoundation.com or visit the ole web thing for payment/donation details http://www.thekanofoundation.com/page15.html
Do you realise that it’s 2 years to the day that you planted the seed for The Kano Foundation ?
You posted on 1/6/2010 and offered to pay for a kids book for any parent that wanted to take their child to the games and maybe couldn’t afford it.
That along with mini-Sanna’s renewal as well as the kid bucketeers at CP a few days before were the catalyst for where we are now. Thanks ;-)
BadaBing
Good old David McNally, formerly of this parish before moving to Fulham then Norwich. Quite the plan Celtic have – get ex-employees into senior positions in EPL clubs who will then vote us in there. Cunning.
BOBBY MURDOCH’S CURLED-UP WINKLEPICKERS on 1 June, 2012 at 13:53 said:
agreed . I loved TTE as well although they didn’t go down to well with your trad Queen fan.
Heart were support the next night and they were much better received – maybe to do with the painted on jeans and low-cut blouses (and that was just the guys!)
Ok . Time to get my party on the road.,
Back onlline courtesy of Dicky-boy shortly .
Sanna
You fill in the blanks for Alex Thomson:
Tell me, what is the story about?
It is a matter of some regret that the press conference yesterday was held so late in the day that I could not be there.
Clearly it was some spectacle. Not since the dying days of the regime in and the primetime performances of have we heard such arrant nonsense coming from a mouthpiece. In fact, several mouthpieces.
Let me personally assure the of some facts. Facts which are from my own direct experience…..
No, the story is actually about Syria. Tells you something though…
Ole Cadizzy- Brutal Youth? Kojak Variety? All that Useless Beauty?
– worth displacin’ ZZ Top from the ole radiogram?
Chairbhoy on 1 June, 2012 at 13:47:
They dabbled with the Guitar for a few years…Accordion, nope they shelved that.
Until we meet again…
Keep the Faith!
Hail Hail!
Stupid software stripped out all the blanks.
Try again;
It is a matter of some regret that the -blank- press conference yesterday was held so late in the day that I could not be there.
Clearly it was some spectacle. Not since the dying days of the -blank- regime in -blank- and the primetime performances of -blank- have we heard such arrant nonsense coming from a -blank- mouthpiece. In fact, several -blank- mouthpieces.
Let me personally assure the -blank- of some facts. Facts which are from my own direct experience…..
Lennybhoy…Supporting Neil Lennon and CFC until I die – I didn’t have the privilege of being taught by Mr Docherty but know plenty of people who did. Apparently he was one of those teachers who made an indelible impression, for the better, on the psyche of his pupils.
He was already retired when I knew him. He carried with him an air of authority and erudition that you rarely see in people these days, or in any day I’d guess.
Even though I was an adult I always felt like I was a schoolboy being summoned by the headmaster when he’d strike up a conversation with me after Mass. :)
(thumbsup)
Paul67 et al
Neil Doncaster is at present carrying out a last gasp defence of the remnants of Rangers FC. He is committed to proving that there is indeed life after death. He hopes to maintain this illusion long enough to enable the SPL to sign a new contract with Sky Sports. He hopes that, once achieved, this whole process will be accepted as a fait accompli. He serves no other purpose. He more or less admitted as much on Newsnight Scotland last night. He is, in other words, a flunky of the highest order!
Sorry about this Bhoys
but haven’t had a chance to check back over the blog
Thanks to everybody who replied
A wee repost from yesterday
I’ll be back on later
HH
———
Sorry for going off topic bhoys
but need a wee bit of Tourist Info
for dear old Glasgae Toon
My eldest,23, has decided to take himself and his girlfriend to your fine city for the long weekend
As I dont know the town too well I told him I would ask on here as you ghuys and ghals will have the inside track
Any info on eateries, esp Indian,
pubs, clubs and general craic would be greatly appreciated
He has had a w’end in Edinburgh
but I did mention Glasgow might
be more craic
Im going to be offline most of the day but knowing this place a big Thank You in advance is definitely called for
Afternoon. You know, I just can’t take much more of this debacle, this sham, this…. open way the football authorities in this country are, in front of our very eyes attempting,nay,coercing in the total destruction of our game in Scotland. Whether rangers(IA) are in the SPL or the 3rd division, everyone has shown their cards, their true colours, so how can we play in a league and trust our so called association when they are openly disregarding their duties to all the members of the leagues whilst treating us all like we don’t even exist.
We know most of them now by their actions, what they’re really like when the mask slips. How really,really pro rangers(IA) they all are. So whats the point in playing in any league against them, when the chips are down can anyone be really sure they’re getting a fair crack of the whip? And if you don’t think you are, do you go to the very people who have unashamedly tried to overide everyones concerns to keep them in the game by hook or by CROOK ???? I really don’t know what to think of this any more…..