Assuming Sir David Murray was telling the truth to Sky News in March (bear with me), there is a £10m gap between the sum recorded in Rangers accounts as paid to EBTs and the recipients revealed by the BBC last night.
It may be that the BBC didn’t receive information on some Rangers employees but we should also consider what other non-employees received payment from an Employee Benefit Trust, like Graeme Souness, who was employed by another club at the time.
What other clubs’ employees received a piece of that £10m? Was it only Blackburn Rovers? Did they know about it? Did an employee of another SPL club receive payment from Rangers Employee Benefit Trust?
What about journalists? The cosy relationship between football clubs and sports journalists has been one of the most incongruous features of this debacle.
What about officials? Yes, officials?
We know cash went out of the company, we know how much is unaccounted for, we just don’t know where it went. The already-established multi-association nature of these revelations (it involved a club registered by the Football Association in England) puts the matter beyond the immediate scope of the Scottish authorities, which is some comfort.
Many of the facts have been revealed but this will be a story that is still giving a decade from now. Before Rangers disappear into the ether, the authorities (football and other) must use all leverage possible to discover where that £10m went.
I didn’t see a penny. Did you?
I am still trying to digest the enormity of what was revealed last night. This could take a while.
You can buy a hard copy of the new issue of CQN Magazine via Magcloud here.
The graphic below is just for a flick through, to read the magazine go here to it’s dedicated site.
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Good bit of fun on CelticFanZone
Which name on the rangers EBT list made you smile the most?
To start the ball rolling…
Egil Ostenstad £370,000
No goals and only played 11 games.
I’m off to see the boss tomorrow and ask her if I can one of those EBT loans (without paying it back of course). Sounds like a right good deal to me! Oh and maybe she could sort one out for my brother and my mate down the local oh and maybe my aunt who lives in Cyprus. You know it makes sense. My, Del boy would have loved it! Tax evasion with no questions asked. Lovely jubbly.
Pablo
Ok wee challenge for CQN ers
Having followed the sorry tale of RFCiA for the last year or so, can any poster think of a potential twist that would amaze them should it materialise?
I’m stuck… Nothing would surprise me now…
South of Tunis…..
Yeah, thanks very much for ruining Silver Blaze for everyone!!
Tsk!
St tives what factory in Mimtec did you work at , I worked up at Hutton sq and a few times in Baird rd ,I Murray you could hardly get a decent wage rise ,con men the lot of his directors ,and he was the biggest one of them all, John mcclelland was the head man in IBM over in France Murray got a lot of work of him ,
Wow 3 hun accusations in quick succession – I feel privileged.
Awe_Naw my point is not about the payment of tax and how HMRC offered EBT amnesties it’s about the correct registeration of players. RFC(IA) won’t lose titles because of failing to pay tax. It’ll be down to not registering players correctly.
The BBC have implied that Celtic may have improperly registered Juninho (which they didn’t) and instead of letting that implication fester, we should nip it in the bud and show we’ve nothing to hide.
Miki, surely you being in possesion of a goat for me to get would make you a better candidate for hundom?
Tombola
Cults
that they have done something … anything honestly
Hail HAil
if mcleish is down for 1.7M im not convinced souness only had 30k regardless of time scale.
AND
my main point…………………….
walter smith and ally mccoist must be major recipients on a bigger scale than mcleish.
so come on tax man, get into thos e 2 bams
Half Time Tombola
If we were to respond to every piece of masonic drivel that BBC Scotland was to mutter we´d need a new department or dont you read BBC Scotland every day ?
Hail Hail
Can I Have Raspberry On That on 24 May, 2012 at 13:25 said:
How far back can HMRC go?
____
If I remember rightly. If your trying to claim back for overpaid tax then ther eis a 3 year limitation. If the taxman wants to claim more tax from you there is no time limitation.
But to be honest Murray laid on a freebie in the moat house hotel in Glasgow also there were some great prizes with free raffle tkts.
The ‘Juninho question’ is still festering. Some Celtic fans are even suggesting the club’s 2004/05 record should be sacrificed in relation to the Juninho EBT payment, in order to cement the need for RFC to be punished appropiately for its improper registration of players over a decade. However the fact is that the Juninho situation is not comparable with the Rangers one, and there is no basis for Celtic to do this as it has not committed any material breach of SPL or SFA rules.
Rangers has by its own admission paid monies to players in addition to what was declared to the SFA. Let us be clear: that is already a serious breach of the SFA rules; it does not matter whether a ‘dual contract’ exists, or whether HMRC considers the sums so paid to be taxable. Murray has already publicly confessed Rangers’ guilt in this matter, making Doncaster’s uncertainty about a ‘prima facie’ case still more risible; only the extent of Rangers’ guilt remains to be determined.
I think most people (outside of FF and Rangers Media) have concluded Celtic are not culpable. However, for anyone who still harbours any doubts, or who wants a watertight case to set out to others who raise this issue, there is a straightforward legal argument, which I have not seen set out previously (though it may well already have been put forward by others) that demonstrates Celtic’s innocence in this matter, with the only assumption being that the Juninho payment was made on the normal commercial basis that would apply to an employee in his situation.
Juninho had a fixed-term contract with Celtic, which Celtic terminated early. It’s normal that in such circumstances the employer must pay up the balance of the contract in order to terminate. In practice a negotiation normally takes place whereby it is agreed that the employer will pay some lesser sum, reflecting the dual advantage to the employee of receiving sums earlier than is stipulated under the contract, and being able to seek paid employment elsewhere before the end of the term of the contract.
Such negotiations usually reduce the amount an employer will pay; but under normal circumstances they will never increase it, for the obvious reason that the employer will always choose to keep the employee on the books till the contract expires, thus paying ‘less later’ rather than ‘more now’. It’s therefore more or less certain that Celtic did not pay Juninho more than he would have earned during that year.
This leads us directly to the reassuring conclusion that the entirety of the payment to Juninho, however it was made, represented the satisfaction by Celtic of a contractual commitment already made and declared to the SFA. All that changed is the manner and timing of the payment; the payment did not constitute a new or additional contract between club and player and as a result there was nothing to declare to the SFA.
There does remain one small issue: the SFA rules do state specificially that “No payments for his playing services may be made to a player via a third party”. However, this is actually rather a silly rule as it stands, as it means that any club that rewards its players by contributing to a pension scheme for them is in breach of it, which would in turn put most Scottish football clubs in the dock. There was in addition no sporting, financial or other advantage gained by paying Juninho in this way, as Celtic in due course voluntarily declared and accounted for the payment to HMRC, as well as the SPL and SFA.
It is conceivable that Celtic might be censured by the SFA for this nominal breach of the rule, but there is no reasonable basis for thinking that any more severe punishment might be forthcoming, especially given that the matter was fully disclosed some years ago.
We all have lots of other issues to discuss at the moment, so unless some unexpected and new information comes to light, the ‘Juninho question’ can sensibly be set aside.
Raven, had dealings with Livingston plant, always an Aston parked outside MIM directors. It put me off a career in HR given some of the practices and how staff were treated.
Aw Naw@13:48
Ha….Primal scream
Brth
The timeline for EBTs 2000 to date falling from a peak in 2007, does not coincide with Smiths time at Rangers as manager 1991 to 98 and 2007 to 2011.
My reading of the Ebt contribution schedule that Rangers decided in 2007 it was dodgy and switched to debt as a means of finance.
Cannot post the tables right now but Smith missed ebts in his first stay and by the time he came back Rangers were dropping their use by 50% in 2007.
The story on Smith is the one you raised about going into debt instead of making provision to pay the core ebt tax in 2008. They spent £29m on transfers in 2007/08 and Smith imo is as guilty as SDM for where Rangers are now.
Has anyone yet coined the phrase:
“…such a parcel of Brogues”?
If not, I’m claiming it as an original work.
I see the current rangers captain is on the list. I wonder if the SFA/SPL would like to comment on that…
greenmaestro on 24 May, 2012 at 13:59 said:
Dear HMRC
The cardigan and the FPLG have been at it. Investigate please.
Yours
The Celtic Family
Dontbrattbakkinanger on 24 May, 2012 at 12:23 said:
“The ability to combine the career of porn star and tax expert is casting new light on the skillset parameters of excellent CQNers such as Cadizzy, Blantyre Kev, Jobo Baldie and ole DIck Byrne.”
Dick Byrne especially….didn’t you know that Love Truncheon Blues was a film and not a song?
Why did Sebo not have an EBT?
Auldheid,
While the use of EBTs reduced 2008-2011 as you say, you do need to remember that:
1) HMRC delivered their assessments to Rangers on the use of EBTs during Fenruary and March 2008
2) In August 2008 the arrogant fools signed Davis and Mendes on EBT contracts.
Not quite as clear cut as you are suggesting.
TBB
2010 Never Again
A quick quiz on quick news
Who’s going to be the first rat to break ranks?
Is Mark Daly leaving simply the best ’till last?
How far will the “bung” trail go and who will it lead to?
Who is the mastermind who has brought the huns to their knees?
Name the major players in operation UFH?
When will Steven Craven re-enter the fray?
When will the dossiers be released?
Isn’t it strange that after the damning revelations of last night’s documentary, so many people seem to be talking about Celtic and Juninho today. Argh!!
Deflection and whataboutery again!
Paul Baxendale………
…………the original “Teddy Bare”..
Snake Plissken on 24 May, 2012 at 14:02 said:
Why did Sebo not have an EBT?
share on F’book or Twitter
After that miss?
Snake Plissken on 24 May, 2012 at 14:02 said:
Why did Sebo not have an EBT?
share on F’book or Twitter
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
2010 Never Again
’cause he paid them
…….cos he missed his chance…………
Headtheball on 24 May, 2012 at 14:05 said:
Isn’t it strange that after the damning revelations of last night’s documentary, so many people seem to be talking about Celtic and Juninho today. Argh!!
Deflection and whataboutery again!
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
As subtle as a brick <:-))
Post on RTC stating that Jack Irvine was an EBT beneficiary to the sum of 451,245 pounds sterling
9.5m to go
Chick young trying to play down the head if the SFA´s EBT doesn´t look good.
Hail Hail
Brogan…
Exactly, the lack of full disclosure is intriguing. According to David Murray, everyone at Rangers believed that the EBT scheme was perfectly legitimate, they all acted in good faith and the information was all there in the accounts for anyone to see. Rangers weren’t hiding anything.
Ok then, would someone at Rangers, or someone who was at Rangers in the offending period, tell us who received money from the EBT, why, when and how much? Remember, it’s a perfectly legitimate scheme and you’re not hiding anything. Come along now.
NeilR,
I agree with every aspect of your interpretation, and posted as much on the last thread. I think someone at Celtic saying exactly what you just said would put the matter to bed, however, that’s all. As it stands there’s a bald statement on the BBcw ebsite which, to the uneducated observor, doesn’t look too clever. A concise clarification from Celtic seems to me to be a good idea. That said, I take the point others have made that it could end up with more focus turned on Celtic than would be merited at this stage. Perhaps even Paul67 could clarify the questions raised in my post on the previous thread.
Can I get an EBT?
They seem to hand them out with gay(Prince Albert) abandon!
HH
Imatim @ 14:05
Not sure of the answers to all those….but I do know Shug Gallus has made preparations for an all-out MIB strike should the need arise.
The BBC have held back on the EBT scheme for BBC employees story.
Think about it.
How could they have presented that story last night and implicated themselves and their own employees while attempting to take the moral high ground.
Rob Shorthouse and Darryl Broadfoot CSC
Jack Irvine got half a million squid to post here under the moniker Bouncyboy???
He wasn’t even very good at it!
Afraid to post anything today. So much potential litigation.
Souness though. Wow. The man who ‘revolutionised’ rangers may turn out to be the man that also destroyed them. allegedly. but he’ll have to fight with at least a half a dozen, naw, dozens of other people for that title.
What a crazy situation.
How do I know I am not dreaming this?
This feels like the day after teh 6-2 game multiplied by a Gazillion.
What a high I am on.
PaulBaxendaleWalker CSC
NeilR on 24 May, 2012 at 14:00 said:
Excellent post, thanks
2010 Never Again
The place is hoaching with them…..and all trying to be ever so subtle. Whatever you’re paying them Jack….it’s way too much <:-))