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First shots fired on post-Covid Scottish football

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After the phony war, the first shots were fired on restructuring Scottish football post-Covid with the news that the SPFL have considered curtailing not starting Leagues One and Two until January.  With one or two under-performing exceptions (Falkirk, Partick), clubs in the bottom two leagues are community clubs in the truest sense.

They exist to serve their local towns, provide physical and intellectual resources local youth clubs can use and aspire towards, allow a large the local employer put their brand on a hoarding and give grandparents somewhere to take the new generation without having to travel.  They do not harbour ambitions of promotion to the Premiership, reaching that height would only skew cash flow and risk the entire venture.

These clubs are probably the most secure in British football right now.  They don’t care if their players go out of contract, the vast majority of them will in June anyway.  Wages are mostly below furlough levels, so they have been able to cut costs down to basic insurance and maintenance.

They could survive for a decade like this, if SPFL payments continue to trickle down, as I assume they will, they could even come out of the crisis cash positive.  Opening for business behind closed doors, without pay-at-the-gate customers, reintroduces the bulk of their costs without corresponding income.  It is not tenable.

The old Steinage, ‘Football is nothing without fans’ is being tested right now.  Having stood at the side of fields in Wishaw, Cumbernauld, Brechin and Milton, I know it is not true; football matters to someone, whenever and wherever it is played.  The more interesting questions, is can we have football clubs without fans or games?

It happened during the great 20th Century crisis.  Not all survived the war, some may perish this time.  The SPFL needed to overcome their recent divisions to move onto this conversation.  Furlough will end before it is safe for fans to return to the game, the bottom two leagues should be parked until at least January.

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  1. 21-5-79 🍀 on

    Amazed to think its 41 years ago today since my first Glasgow derby,

     

     

    I was 13yrs 7mths & 15days…😳

  2. PAUL67

     

    ” I know it is not true; football matters to someone, whenever and wherever it is played. The more interesting questions, is can we have football clubs without fans or games?”

     

     

    Or more to the point, do we now have football games without rules and regulations for one club? It now seems as though that IS the way Scottish football is now being run, so what’s the point? They could be about to start another tax evading scheme and there is nothing the SFA or any other club can do about it. Not one thing! por cierto.

  3. BROGAN ROGAN TREVINO AND HOGAN on

    Good Afternoon. (Long Post- sorry)

     

     

    “Implication” is a great word. When something is implied it is not stated for certain, but it is heavily hinted at.

     

     

    Another great word is “Consequence”

     

     

    A Consequence is something that is stronger and more tangible than anything that is implied.

     

     

    A Direct consequence is much firmer and more certain than anything that is implied, and of course there are consequences when you do something, and there are consequences when you fail to do something.

     

     

    So here is part of the SFA’s statement with one word substituted for the other.

     

     

    “following consideration of the consequences of such a referral”.

     

     

    They used the word implication, but in reality they meant consequences.

     

     

    Before considering the devastating consequence of not referring the matter to CAS, let’s recap on the history here without getting bogged down in the detail, because in all honesty the detail of what actually happened in 2011/2012 is now a squirrel of gigantic proportions.

     

     

    The facts are these.

     

     

    By 2013 there was sufficient evidence available to merit further investigation into the UEFA licence application concerned.

     

     

    The board of Celtic PLC had instigated their own enquiries as they had seen enough to request clarification from then SFA CEO Stewart Regan.

     

     

    Regan responded with replies which were misleading, inaccurate and, some would say dismissive. His letters terminated with the suggestion that Celtic should be satisfied with his responses and that should be an end of the matter.

     

     

    It wasn’t.

     

     

    By this time shareholders had gathered further evidence and questioned the responses provided by Regan. They also asked the board to bypass the SFA and take the matter to UEFA as they had no faith in the SFA which Celtic themselves had previously described as not being fit for purpose.

     

     

    The information available cast severe doubt not only on Mr Regan’s responses but on the efficiency of the SFA in analysing the information provided in support of the licence application, in determining the information required to approve such an application, the interpretation and application of the licensing rules, and the reasons stated by Regan for granting the application.

     

     

    Mr Regan, in passing, also stressed that the SFA’s entire modus operandi had been audited by UEFA – only for later evidence to emerge which suggested that this was simply just not the case.

     

     

    Instead of the matter being at an end, all Regan had done was provide more evidence which merited further questions.

     

     

    In response to those further questions, we know fine well that he drafted his answers and sent them to Ibrox for prior approval – only to be told that his draft response would be embarrassing for both RFC and the SFA.

     

     

    Consequences eh?

     

     

    So another letter goes back to Celtic, again “implying” that the matter was closed.

     

     

    What was Celtic to do at this stage?

     

     

    One of the difficulties here was that Celtic were privy to information which was not in the public domain as such and about which there were questions of provenance.

     

     

    Now lets be clear about what Provenance means.

     

     

    The provenance of a document is not just its authenticity or being able to prove who wrote it, but also how it got from A to B, what it says, who saw it, relied on it and so on.

     

     

    Equally, under no circumstances were the board of Celtic PLC going to make further enquiries on the back of documents which others could claim were fake, could deny, and could be used to cause trouble for Celtic — and they were professionally correct to take that stand.

     

     

    However some of the documentation and information could be stood up. It had been produced in courts of law by either the authors or the recipients and to that extent they were in the public domain and were accessible.

     

     

    At this stage, it should always be remembered that the SFA have full powers of inquiry and can mount investigations, ask questions and demand the recovery of files from any football club and indeed the tax authorities and others.

     

     

    All requests asking the SFA to do this and to look into the matter further were rejected.

     

     

    So, after a certain period of time, Celtic have some information, but not all, and they have some information which they can’t really use because its provenance is not 100% in their eyes.

     

     

    At this stage, shareholders, quite separate to the board of Celtic PLC instruct an international firm of solicitors and, using some of the information available, start to ask questions separately.

     

     

    Meanwhile, the board of Celtic PLC ask the SFA about one particular document – a letter – and ask the then Corporate Compliance Officer (Andrew McKinlay) if the document is held within the SFA files or not?

     

     

    Privately, shareholders are told that Mr McKinlay, (having been appraised of the nature of the concerns of Celtic PLC and the shareholders) is of the view that if the letter is missing from SFA files then there will have to be an inquiry. He also was of the opinion that if the letter was in the SFA files — there would have to be an inquiry!!

     

     

    Clearly, all was not ok within the state of Denmark so to speak.

     

     

    Meanwhile, the SFA reply to the shareholders lawyers and commence what can only be described as a litany of excuses for not answering questions and for taking no action whatsoever. Over the next few years they would say:

     

     

    They can’t answer questions, or examine evidence, unless the questions are asked directly by a member club and any evidence is produced by a member club. (There may be good grounds in law to challenge this but they are as yet untested).

     

     

    Later they said that they could not make any further enquiries, conduct a formal inquiry, or report to UEFA on the season concerned, because they were time barred from doing so.

     

     

    They also said that certain matters were confidential to clubs and could not be shared or commented upon.

     

     

    In the interim they sought to further explain themselves but did no more than tie themselves in knots when faced with further information.

     

     

    At one point shareholders were able to show that Stewart Regan had publicly answered one particular issue or question with at least four contradictory and different answers.

     

     

    Then the SFA suggested that shareholders write to UEFA with their concerns and stated clearly that if UEFA instigated an inquiry then the SFA would respond fully and that would get them over the time bar hurdle.

     

     

    They even provided the name and address of a UEFA man to write to!

     

     

    Well, being cynics, shareholders chose to write to someone else entirely who was far higher up the food chain.

     

     

    It would be fair to say that Celtic did not want to go directly to UEFA, as had originally been requested, and preferred to go through the SFA — presumably because they were members of that association and because they wanted to rehearse other issues with UEFA.

     

     

    In any event, UEFA responded and clarified a few things.

     

     

    They directly contradicted some of what Regan had said previously, provided some further and new information which was interesting but only partly relevant, but again stated that they couldn’t really correspond with anyone other than a member club and effectively invited Celtic to take the matter up with them directly.

     

     

    Celtic didn’t do that – and the explanation for that at the time was that the board were involved in so many things and so many discussions with UEFA and the SFA that they wanted to pick their battles and their battleground so to speak.

     

     

    That happens in all walks of business and in this instance this was not a matter that Celtic PLC wanted to take forward at that time. Later, Shareholders would be told at a much later AGM that UEFA were not interested – despite what they had written in their letter.

     

     

    Of course, in the background the wheels of justice in the outside world continued to turn and first the Supreme Court and then the High Court ruled.

     

     

    It was in the course of those hearings, particularly the High Court Trial of Craig Whyte, that what Paul refers to as “New Evidence” comes to light — although much of the evidence was not in fact new ( as it had by this time been known for years) but it was spoken to directly by witnesses who could and did absolutely verify the provenance of what had been said before.

     

     

    As a consequence (that word again) Regan pronounced that the SFA had likely been duped, and Celtic and the SPL called for a full inquiry — which the SFA refused. Surprise Surprise.

     

     

    Instead, The SFA ordered that there be a limited inquiry with a view to bringing disciplinary charges — all question of time bar and that sort of thing having magically disappeared.

     

     

    In the background shareholders continued to ask, and indeed answer, questions.

     

     

    For example, the letter which Andrew McKinlay suggested would merit an inquiry had not turned up and shareholders were asked to furnish an alleged copy which the SFA would make enquiries on.

     

     

    Later, we were told that the supposed recipient of that letter had never received it and that the party to whom it was addressed had never seen it which would explain why it had never made its way to the SFA files.

     

     

    Alas, when shareholders were able to produce a replying letter acknowledging receipt of the letter concerned and which dealt with its contents in some detail — this particular myth was scotched big style amidst no little embarrassment.

     

     

    As an aside, even after the letter which sparked all this activity had been delivered to Hampden and acknowledged, it once again went missing from the SFA files and during the course of the above mentioned SFA investigation they had to write to shareholders and request a further copy.

     

     

    Strangely the first two letters requesting that further copy never reached the shareholders lawyers and their existence only came to light when the SFA head of security phoned up to ask why his letters were being ignored.

     

     

    I will leave you to consider the implications of this chain of events for the moment.

     

     

    Returning to the SFA internal inquiry, after some considerable time the SFA actually determine that their investigations and inquiries have produced enough evidence to merit bringing disciplinary charges against RFC in relation to the UEFA licence application.

     

     

    The SFA don’t refer the matter to UEFA – they proceed with charges under their own rules, and in terms of UEFA rules.

     

     

    By this time, the chap in charge of bringing these charges for the SFA is Mr McGlennan.

     

     

    Mr Regan and Mr McKinlay are still in the building however.

     

     

    Back at Celtic Park shareholders are told that persistence has indeed beaten resistance because after years of foraging and corresponding disciplinary charges are being brought and the evidence will be heard. Celtic are disappointed that their call for a full independent inquiry has been rejected but at least part of the matter is now going before an independent tribunal and we will wait and see what comes of that.

     

     

    But here comes a spanner in the works.

     

     

    RFC (or The Rangers Football Club Ltd) raise some preliminary points of law with the independent tribunal.

     

    These preliminary points may well relate to not only the legal status of the defendant, but also to the time parameters of the charges, and the jurisdiction of the tribunal itself.

     

     

    Auldheid is very vexed about what happened with regard to the time period to be considered and learns that the original charges posted on the SFA website seem to have been secretly amended with the material times to be examined being supposedly reduced. Further, before the charges are even dealt with a statement is issued by RFC saying that in relation to the key dates that have been dropped, the SFA have determined that there is no case to answer and that the issue is at an end.

     

     

    Although how they can do that if they now never had jurisdiction I don’t quite follow.

     

     

    Given that this statement declaring no case to answer was issued over two years before the most recent one from the SFA and is never contradicted by the SFA – I will leave you to draw your own conclusions.

     

     

    Eventually the judicial panel rule that they don’t have jurisdiction and recommend that the case go to CAS for determination.

     

     

    When this matter is raised with Celtic PLC, The board once again take the matter up with the SFA and come back with the comment that the matter will go to CAS — “Why wouldn’t it?”

     

     

    However, by this time there are other matters to consider in this sorry tale.

     

     

    After years of failing to investigate, report to UEFA and take any action whatever, the SFA have finally determined that they can and should bring charges, alleging breaches of football rules, based on the evidence they have in-gathered..

     

     

    Only for an independent tribunal, chaired by a legally qualified chairman, to determine that the SFA, in this instance, cannot prosecute and appoint a panel to hear and determine whether or not there has been a breach of the SFA’s own rules.

     

     

    Let that sink in for a moment — for whatever reason — an independent judicial panel have determined that the SFA CANNOT enforce its own rules by way of a legal hearing.

     

     

    Now why would that be

     

     

    Just what are the “implications” of that ruling and what might the “consequences” be?

     

     

    Could it be that the rules and regulations of the SFA (and UEFA for that matter) are absolutely unenforceable in Scotland unless the SFA stands aside, acts only as prosecutor and refers each and every case where there is an alleged rule breach to CAS?

     

     

    If that is the case the implication is that every football club and every player in Scotland can breach every rule in the book and the SFA can do nothing about it unless they go to CAS.

     

     

    Surely that can’t be right?

     

     

    Or is the position, as has been suggested, that the referral to CAS is only applicable in this case because of the famous 5 way agreement — which of course is supposedly an agreement between the SFA, the SPL, the SFL and those with an interest (of whatever kind) in just one football club?

     

     

    If so, then the clear implication is that by design or sheer incompetence, the SFA has by way of that agreement contractually signed away its rights to enforce its own rules and conduct its own hearings in respect of just one club within its association!

     

     

    That would be an astonishing set of circumstances yet there is a fair degree of evidence to suggest that this is precisely where we are.

     

     

    Basically, the club charged via the SFA process does not come under the jurisdiction of the SFA in certain circumstances, and in its statement the SFA is making clear that they cannot proceed with any referral to CAS for fear of the implications and the potential consequences of the hearing and the eventual ruling.

     

     

    What a farce?

     

     

    But wait because the questions do not stop there.

     

     

    By this time, Mr Regan, Mr McKinlay and Mr McGlennan, who you will recall brought the charges, have all left the building leaving a trail of idiotic devastation behind them and an almighty legal mess for others to clean up as best they can.

     

     

    I have to ask why they brought the charges in the first place if the 5 way agreement contractually debarred an SFA independent panel from considering those same charges and enforcing SFA rules?

     

     

    They must have known of the terms of the 5 way agreement but did they not understand what they had signed up to? Did they not realise that in effect the 5 way agreement totally neutered the SFA in respect of one club?

     

     

    Yet that is what the panel has ruled and it is my guess that this what the SFA are afraid CAS will rule.

     

     

    So, after years and years of obfuscation, irregular replies, contradictory responses, and eventual charges alleging rule breaches — there is to be no hearing, no ruling, no conclusion. Not because the evidence isn’t strong enough or because the charges have been refuted in fact or explained away, but because the SFA is afraid to proceed and disclose that it contracted out of its own rules in one instance?

     

     

    Oh well. That’s that then.

     

     

    Or is it?

     

     

    I believe that shareholders in the game can and should challenge this.

     

     

    I think Celtic should for the sake of their business, but won’t because time has moved on, the club has secured nine in a row and so the fans won’t care a jot at this time/

     

     

    That however is short termism.

     

     

    Everybody knows now what happened in season 2011/2012. The evidence came out in court. The SFA were misled by one club and there are direct and implied consequences for every other club.

     

     

    Now imagine if the deception of the SFA continued after the period involved in the UEFA licensing process

     

     

    Someone who is behind with their taxes may well be behind in relation to other payments — such as those promised in a side letter to a trust in Jersey. Could it be that right up until 2012 payments were being made to those trusts out of sight of the SFA and in breach of SFA rules?

     

     

    You might possibly think that — I couldn’t possibly comment.

     

     

    However all of that is history and many fans will be vexed with the question could the Celtic board have done more; Were the Celtic board privy to the 5 way agreement, had they seen it, are they involved etc?

     

     

    The CEO said very clearly at last years AGM that he had not seen the 5 way – and that to be honest is my greatest worry.

     

     

    If that is correct, and I am not going to suggest that it is incorrect, then the implications and consequences are horrific.

     

     

    It would mean that a club like Celtic can enter SFA competitions each year on the basis of the football rules as presented to them only to find that the SFA has agreed to change those rules in secret and behind closed doors without telling Celtic or any other club.

     

     

    It would mean that officials within the SFA have free reign to enter into agreements and binding contracts which sign away their ability to enforce rules, or to change the rules, without ever consulting Celtic or other clubs.

     

     

    It would mean that agreements like the 5 way agreement can be entered into and signed by SFA officials who are either crooked, or, so grossly incompetent as to not know what they are doing in terms of jurisdiction and so on.

     

     

    It would mean that Celtic PLC have a business worth potentially hundreds of millions of pounds which is forced to play within an association structure which has been shown to be way out of control, acts on a frolic of its own, covers up its own incompetence and over which the best business brains at Celtic PLC have little influence and no control whatsoever

     

     

    It would mean that Celtic PLC cannot, and never could, give any shareholder, season ticket holder, sponsor advertiser, player, agent or anyone else any type of reasonable reassurance that the events narrated above and elsewhere were a one off or could not be repeated in the future.

     

     

    Others believe that Celtic are complicit in this mess and I have to admit that Peter Lawwell has on occasion done himself no good by boasting that awkward issues have been kicked into the long grass etc — that is disappointing from someone who has shown very good qualities as a CEO over a long period.

     

     

    However, I have been at meetings when I have been told that when it comes to meetings at the SFA, other clubs simply don’t care about the issue, that Celtic has only one vote, and that the club have tried and have spoken to other club officials and officers but can’t get them interested in any sort of inquiry of any kind.

     

     

    I genuinely believe that to be the case as Scottish Football is not run like any other business and it is not subject to the law of the real world.

     

     

    When giving evidence at one hearing I believe that Rod McKenzie stated the opinion that “the law had not caught up with Scottish Football”

     

     

    What I believe he meant by that was that the law of the outside world does not apply at all times to Scottish Football.

     

     

    When clubs gather under the auspices of the SFA or the SPFL it is like a conclave of Cardinals in the Sistine Chapel. While the world is outside, it is only their rules and their votes on the inside that matter.

     

     

    If they chose to amend the rules, ignore the rules, waive the rules, or whatever by way of a vote or an agreement there is nothing you, me or any dissenting club can do about it.

     

     

    If the implications and consequences for the SFA are construed as harmful in any situation then lets abandon the rules even if that lets injustice prevail and wrongdoing go unpunished.

     

     

    Noises will be made saying this couldn’t happen again and there has been reform and all that tosh but in actual fact that is nonsense.

     

     

    The SFA are skint, they can’t afford to monitor the veracity of what club officials present to them and they can’t do, or won’t do, anything about past perpetrators presenting current documentation which require greater scrutiny than in the past if only to ensure there is no repetition of past mistakes.

     

     

    Can the board of Celtic PLC, or any other club for that matter, guarantee that there will never be another agreement such as the 5 way agreement? I don’t think they can.

     

     

    Can the SFA, UEFA, Celtic or anyone else guarantee that the SFA will not be misled in future and be found to be inept at dealing with licensing processes and any other such deception — I don’t think they can.

     

     

    On a commercial basis, can anyone at ADIDAS be confident that the SFA will do all in its power to ensure that UEFA rules will be properly applied and that their strips will rightly and properly be seen in licensed competition with the licensing rules being properly overseen by the people at Hampden — I don’t think they can.

     

     

    Forget the detail of what happened in the past, the decision of the SFA this week, the timing of which was no accident, has raised questions about the entire future and basis of Scottish Football and its Administration.

     

     

    If that decision is allowed to stand without comment or challenge then Football in Scotland has been holed below the waterline and the consequences may be fatal.

     

     

    The precedent has been set. The rules will be broken and flaunted again and the SFA will bot deal with it swiftly or adequately.

     

     

    And Celtic, their board, their sponsors, shareholders and fans are absolutely powerless to do anything about it.

     

     

    For them, the implications and consequences are both plain to see and absolutely dire.

     

     

     

    BRTH

  4. BRTH awesome piece, this boil needs to be lanced. we need shoulders to the wheel, crowd funding etc. I or one would be prepared to dig deep to help out financially. Chapeau doffed to you and Auldheid and others involved in Res 12, you ghuys should be on the board. Hail Hail Hebcelt

  5. I’m pig sick of this farago. It needs to be challenged legally. Count me in.

     

    HH

  6. BROGAN ROGAN TREVINO AND HOGAN on

    Hebcelt.

     

     

    Thanks for the kind words …. but the Celtic board?

     

     

    Nah — thanks but no thanks.

     

     

    First chance I get I am for a house in Italy and a season ticket at Perugia, Livorno or Fiorentina in between Celtic games!!

     

     

    I can get myself into enough trouble as it is without any Celtic board.

  7. !!Bada Bing!! on

    21-5-79 🍀 on 21ST MAY 2020 12:46 PM

     

    Amazed to think its 41 years ago today since my first Glasgow derby,

     

     

    Still the best game ii have ever been at….

  8. !!Bada Bing!! on

    To tell the Celtic supporters, that we haven’t seen the most important document in a generation, and Riley was on holiday and never seen it either, is taking the absolute pi$#……

     

    Crowdfunding, I’m in.

  9. BRTH amazing article, Thanks’ to you and the rest, Crowd funding i’m in !!!!!

  10. BRTH,

     

    Incredible post,many thanks.So much to take in from it.The one thing I would say,is that the machinations of the SFA,are not a new thing.I remember sitting listening to my Father and his mates,go on about this institution.They have always been corrupt,in the fact they favored one team.We all know why.Masons to a man.Sadly we still have these Dinosaurs in place in a dwindling section of society.It is dwindling.They got positions before through a Brother,or a handshake,not through ability,or education.The high tech world we now live in,has overtaken them.Read the Hun blogs,they know it.They are left with their Bowling clubs,Golf clubs,of which the SFA,are just a trumped up version.Their days are numbered.

     

    The future is ours.

  11. CELTIC BY NUMBERS

     

     

    Fascinating read and thank you for posting!

     

     

    Just wonderful!

  12. Chances of a court action being raised? almost nil.

     

     

    Chances of any such court action being successful? less than nil.

     

     

    Suck it up, put it behind you and buy your season book.

     

     

    You had your opportunity to do something when Celtic refused to call out the huns as a new club. That opportunity is now long gone.

  13. BHOYLO83,

     

    Not too sure on the Adidas launch.Sure I read that there is no production of strips taking place at the moment.

     

    We should in hindsight probably have gone with a premier company,like Castore.

  14. BRTH don’t sell yourself short. Not many fans realise the amount of time and effort you ghuys have put in. PL has done some great work but has blotted his copy book on this one. Has he told you ghuys – in confidence anything that would change minds? Or has he been economical with the truth? Hope to see you later in the year H H Hebcelt

  15. BROGAN ROGAN TREVINO AND HOGAN on

    Turkeybhoy/ Bada Bing

     

     

    Before we jump headlong into the Mason’s conspiracy theory (which may be true for all I know) let me pose a really really simple alternative which I know, at least in part, to be true.

     

     

    The SFA, which numbers something like 120 clubs because when the SPFL came into being that seemed like a block vote and so certain parties went about recruiting lots of wee, but no less valid, teams like Cove Rangers etc to the fold, meet to consider “Strict Liability”.

     

     

    For some, including Celtic, Strict liability is a BIG no no.

     

     

    So, the meeting is attended by club officials from all over.

     

     

    Some couldn’t care less about strict liability as it will never affect them and so they have attended the meeting without even having read the proposal, considered what it means, or even discussed the matter with their own board.

     

     

    They are there for the day out, and absolutely splendid lunch, some International tickets if they are available, and to canvass the remotest possibility of at some point accompanying the Scotland team to Tallinn, or Morovia, or darkest Nepal or somewhere.

     

     

    They couldn’t care less about strict liability.

     

     

    In many respects, same here.

  16. EL all your opinion which of course you’re entitled to but I’ll go with the RES lhads if they decide to go ahead I’ll back them H H Hebcelt

  17. ERNIE LYNCH,

     

    Sadly,I think you are right.We had the chance,but I am sure the thought of no more Huns spooked our Board.

     

    I am not entirely convinced they were wrong in this.Finances would have been the overwhelming reasoning behind their decision.Not just Hun games,TV money,sponsorship,etc.Its no coincidence that our finances are at an all time high since 2012.You won’t find many fans who have not enjoyed our dominance over them since then.As Kevin Bridges said”Scottish football was a two horse race.One of the horses fell.”.I think you will find,the vast majority who go to the games,are glad they got back up,but continue limping towards a winning post,that just seems to get further away.

  18. Turkeybhoy

     

     

    It’s just that I see the new Aberdeen kit has been unveiled, modelled by Niall McGinn and I noticed earlier that a few Adidas kits – Arsenal, Real, Bayern and Juventus had been leaked…

     

     

    So fingers crossed we get a sneaky peak at least

     

     

    B-)

  19. Turkeybhoy you may be right but the board lied to the fans and the Res 12 ghuys why not tell us the truth and see what the reaction is ? Fans might accept it H H Hebcelt

  20. glendalystonsils on

    BRTH

     

     

    A thought provoking article . Nevertheless , I’m not so sure about the possible blamelessness of our board . The attitude of quite a few on here and elsewhere has been ‘ach well they’ve got away with this one but the scare they got will ensure it doesn’t happen again’. If the system in place to promote and protect the huns is as active as it ever was , then what more urgent time to crank it up than ‘stop the ten?’

     

    That is why this should not be allowed to lie . The whole governance of Scottish football needs to be revolutionised.

  21. BROGAN ROGAN TREVINO AND HOGAN on

    Parkheadcumsalford

     

     

    Court action!

     

     

    First of all, with any court action you have to consider what you want to ask the court to do?

     

     

    Next, consider what are the consequences if you lose — quickly followed by what are the consequences if you win?

     

     

    On this latter point see Oscar Wilde — he won in court and promptly went to Reading Jail, lost his fortune, his reputation and his life. Exiled to Paris and died upon release.

     

     

    Winning can be a bitch!!

     

     

    Then you have to look at the cost, win or lose, and finally assess your chances of winning.

     

     

    In between times, stop and consider the position of the other side and whether their case is stronger.

     

     

    NEVER overestimate your own case or look for the law the way you want it to be, look for it as it is not as you would like it to be.

     

     

    So, what is the contractual relationship or delictual relationship between any fan and the SFA.

     

     

    Answer none – unless you are on SFA premises or have bought a ticket to an SFA event.

     

     

    However, what is the contractual or delictual relationship between the SFA and a shareholder in an SFA member club?

     

     

    Now you might have an argument but it is untested.

     

     

    Does the SFA have any obligations to ordinary shareholders of a member club?

     

     

    The answer can be yes or no.

     

     

    No, if the club acts through its board properly and legally and the shareholder is just a disgruntled punter who is in the vast minority and who has suffered no wrong.

     

     

    Maybe, if it can be established that the SFA has failed in its duty to the member club and can be found to be legally accountable to that club and its shareholders.

     

     

    There, the individual shareholder may have a right of action and could legally hold the association to account.

     

     

    But I stress maybe.

     

     

    There is no YES in this scenario because it has never been established or tested positively.

     

     

    The only court action a shareholder could raise here would be to seek a judicial review of the recent SFA decision based upon the statement released which ignores the legal rights and wrongs and more or less says we are not pursuing this due to convenience on our part.

     

     

    What are the consequences of a court action which established that the SFA is accountable to every shareholder in every club?

     

     

    Would anyone want that?

     

     

    I could cite examples where that just might be a total nightmare where the lunatics really do take over the asylum.

     

     

    I am all for a good fight (I won’t tell you how many years I have spent fighting bankers as I would bore you to death) but this is far from clear cut and if the board won’t fight it why should shareholders and season ticket holders.

     

     

    As an academic and jurisprudential exercise it would be fun to do, and the discussions about the consequences would be fun to have.

     

     

    In the real world — you would be asking an awful lot and risking even more.

  22. BRTH – Great effort with your post. Way too long for me to read in detail – probably because I have no interest in the subject matter. While just my personal opinion, I believe Celtic fans should focus on what’s good today and let the past stay just there. I don’t know what good can possibly come out of this for anyone connected to Celtic. Proof that there was corruption in Scottish Football leadership? Sure, but we know that anyway. Proof that Oldco cheated their way into European competition? Sure, but I couldn’t care less about Oldco, less about Newco.

     

     

    Celtic have prospered hugely under PL’s leadership. I hope he stays for many years to come. Good luck to you with the crusade, I hope it doesn’t get in the way of your, or your supporters, enjoyment of everything that’s good about present day Celtic.

  23. BRTH

     

     

    Then the only recourse would be to hold the PLC’s feet to the fire, and that’s not going to happen with 10 in a row on the horizon, even thereafter, 55 would come into play, and then, possibly, the most successful club in the World. Tell you what, just forget it! :)) por cierto

  24. celtic you are sick and corrupt you know what the scum did and wont pursue in whos interest are you looking after sick, sick.

  25. BRTH,

     

     

    Thanks for the reply.

     

    Delictual=i’ll have to look that one up. Don’t think I have ever come across it. Obviously, legally, a very important word.

  26. BROGAN ROGAN TREVINO AND HOGAN on

    GLENDALYSTONSILS on 21ST MAY 2020 2:28 PM

     

     

    I don’t think you will find that I have said that the PLC board are blameless.

     

     

    They had other fish to fry at UEFA and didn’t pursue an opportunity.

     

     

    They will see that as the correct course of action — I will politely disagree.

     

     

    They chose to pursue this through the SFA — That hasn’t worked out too well.

     

     

    Some comments were poor, frankly dismissive and completely contrary to the impression we were being given.

     

     

    Others have theories, views, opinions and the like.

     

     

    All I have done is take exactly what the board have said at face value, accepted it and applied that to the actual situation.

     

     

    Q. Would it be better for Celtic PLC for board members to say “You know what, we might have made mistakes here but they were judgement calls at the time and we thought they were right and turned out to be wrong” or if someone said “Yes we did see the 5 way agreement but could never have forseen it would have been used or even abused in this way” etc etc

     

     

    or

     

     

    Q. is it better that the board of Celtic PLC used all their might and influence to pursue this to the Nth degree with relentless energy and gusto but find that they are absolutely powerless to prevent the current state of affairs and can provide no guarantee that the situation will never arise again no matter who sits on the board at any given time?

     

     

    What does Dermot D think about the fact that the rules he has invested in can be chopped, changed, sidelined, forgotten or buried?

     

     

    Is that the kind of market conditions he and others of his ilk are comfortable trading and investing in?

     

     

    If Celtic have followed this all the way through and can do nothing about it, and can’t prevent it from happening again — who in their right mind would invest in such a company?

  27. glendalystonsils on

    BRTH

     

     

    My automatic reaction would be to say , come clean Peter and ( perhaps) all would be forgiven . If you are hiding anything then (perhaps) coming clean might unify the support and let us move on . Whatever has happened , we need to know WHY it happened .

     

     

    Trouble is we might not like the answers we get. Personally , and I know many will disagree , I would not want to lose PL as CEO , but that could be an outcome.

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