15 years ago we beat Shakhtar Donetsk 2-1 to qualify for the knockout stages of the Champions League. The team that night was:
Boruc
Caldwell, Kennedy, McManus, Naylor
McGeady, Brown, Hartley, Jarosik
McDonald, Vennegoor of Hesselink
Kennedy and Naylor went off injured in the first half, replaced by Pressley and Donati. Needing the winner, Gordon Strachan hooked Vennegoor of Hesselink and put on Chris Killen (!). It is also worth noting the quality of that group. Top seed Milan were reigning champions, Shakhtar would win the following season’s Uefa Cup and Benfica were no slouches.
Some sides flatter to deceive, Gordon Strachan’s Celtic did not deceive and did not flatter. They delivered without looking anything other than industrial. Those European nights were fabulous, domestically, however, it was often a hard watch.
I’m not going to ask you if you would swap what you had then for what we have now, we are enjoying today’s Celtic too much, also recency bias would intervene. All that would change if we were in second place in Scotland. Winning is all when you are behind in the race you really want to win.
Ange Postecoglou will also know sentiment is never fixed. He will have to improve European results with his current expansive style, change styles or eventually endure a drop in sentiment. Automatic qualification for the Champions League provides shelter.
As long as we win the league and the league winners get to the group stage, we will be able to indulge on the big stage. That would not be the case if we were to face a qualification round. Then, winning would be everything, just as it was with Gordon. If we take a harsh look in the mirror, results in what was an easier Champions League group have been disappointing and the manner in which we were exposed on the counter suggests no learning since Bodo/Glimt earlier this year. The slide from topping our Europa group in 2019 against Lazio, Rennes and Cluj is all tactical.
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Just as a matter of interest,does anyone else think Abada would do a job playing through the middle as a striker HH
Why would the physical and mental demands of Angeball affect players ability to put the ball in the net ?
They miss chances in the first five minutes, and all through every game, and subs brought on miss chance at the end of games.
It is the players themselves.
Cambusbhoy
I really don’t think we are too far away. Just need more experience against higher level teams and individual players. Finishing has to be better – whether that’s with the players we have improving or by bringing in a better finisher.
Take care.
They are gone
FAN
I think that as well, Abada for me is great at making runs into the box at the right time.
Would be a great second striker if we ever played that way…
Paul’s leader is saying much the same as I said in posts yesterday – do the players and mngmt learn anything from these games? Do they learn enough to make them better or to make them change? My point yesterday was that it is not a choice between parking the bus or all out attack. There are plenty tactical variations that can be used to tighten things up or go fo it when needed. Playing two wingers and two centre forwards is not the way to protect a lead when you are 45 mins away from a precious CL win
To be fair to the players, and one thing which cannot be overlooked, is that in a season like this one, we only play competitive games against superior opposition in these six CL games. In every single domestic cup and league match we are by far the better team (not to say that that guarantees results but you know what I mean). Most of the other CL clubs have serious domestic rivals that test them to their limits several times in the season. This may allow them the chance to be more flexible with their tactics. A bit more defensive here, a bit more expansive there. We can be expansive in every domestic game because our players are better than all of the other teams.
I hate the simplification that somehow it is a choice between defend for your lives or Kamikaze all out attack. Mngmt should be about how to win using different strategies as and when required.
Moderator – well done. Fingers crossed.
Very disappointing campaign with a lot of points left behind.
Last season we finished third in the Europa with a game to spare. This season, we’re bottom in the CL with a game to spare.
I think we had one of the easier groups. If we’re back next season and draw a group like Plzen have this season then it’ll be a another fruitless campaign. Probably with a couple of big defeats thrown in.
Domestically though we’re flying. And that’s what it is all about. So I think Ange will come in for little criticism while we’re winning leagues and reaching Hampden.
Glasstwothirdsfull
To be fair Paul was clear that this team in 7/8 was a downsized team. He also pointed out Shakthar went into o win Europa a year later. Benfica went from a pot 4 to pot 1 in 4 seasons from 7/8. This was a tough group back then and all other clubs were better funded than Celtic. This time both Real Madrid and RBL are. Shakthar despite everything are also well positioned financially.
For me it’s about fine margins. We bravely went about the task. We failed. Had we had the same run of games as Shakthar and them having ours then I have no doubt we would have qualified this year. RBL pre Rose we’re a shambles. Shakthar on the back of a home defeat to Madrid coming to CP would have been a much easier proposition than Tuesday. Thems the breaks as a former uk premier once said.
FYI I loved it qualifying for last 16 in GS season. Twice in 4 years despite the ‘rightsizing’ of the cost base at the time vs a totally corrupt and over spending Huns. We also won 3 leagues in 4 seasons despite the miserable whinging entitled clowns booing the team at Celtic park. The same assholes who got on his case for the final season and generated enough negativity around the place to force him out and lose the league to the cheating cardigan with no surname.
It wasn’t pretty football but it achieved more than any other Celtic team since 1970 in terms of beating the best in Europe with wins v Man U Benfica Shakthar Milan. We even ran Milan close for a last 16 spot !
My only criticism of Ange is he puts the CL on such a pedestal that the players and possibly himself don’t seem to believe they belong.
Sadly a tweak of the fixture schedule and a bit of belief and they would have known different.
Abada Jota the Japanese are all better than the dared to be. Belief wasn’t there. If we had revered the fixtures and had Shakthar run of games then we would be in 2nd place now in that group.
I think going back 15 years as a direct comparison misses quite a lot. The game was very different then, technically less able teams were able to compete, poorer resourced clubs did better. The change in tactics has consigned formations that still work in the lesser competitions to the bin. WGS’s Celtic wouldn’t have been able to counter attack the way SD did on Tuesday, any more than they would have been able to deal with a high quality high pressing team. We wouldn’t keep the ball long enough.
That season teams from the Scottish, Greek, French (not PSG) and Turkish leagues all qualified. These days its the big 4 leagues with Portuguese and the occasional French team going through. Hardly any of the teams in the top 3 pots come from the lower leagues, we’re at a disadvantage before the draw is even made.
Thats not to say that a more pragmatic approach wouldn’t bring better results, or that we couldn’t find a coach who could play uglier and more winning football, but I think we’d struggle much more now than back then to attract a coach and players who could do it.
That we managed it twice in two years says as much about state of the game back then compared to now as the skills of WGS and his players, and I say that as a big fan of what he did in his time with us.
Given our resources I think we have a chance with Ange, the flaws in his system are obvious for everyone but show me one that doesn’t have flaws. A system that gave a team a shoot outs chance of winning the Europa League was found out in 45 minutes in a CL group format. Its not the only pragmatic system but its one, and you only have to look at the results since to show what can happen if you get it badly wrong.
Even with the flaws becoming even more apparent, I think given the step up in the standard of the opposition we are improving. Unless we make some excellent signings in the next 2 windows, which isn’t out of the question, I think theres too much for the improvements to be so significant that we bridge the gap from fourth to second, especially when were playing teams from pots above us. But maybe with some luck in the draw and in the games we’ll do it, once.
Personally, Id much rather we were in the Europa League. Theres a lot about the CL I’d miss but I enjoy watching Celtic play against better matched teams.
We could bring back Wee Gordon to manage us for the European games, I am sure the Celtic fans would love that ?
“In Ange We Trust”
Ange has to cop the flack for Tuesday evening.
We has a must win match.
We were leading.
Yet were caught on the break for the equalizer,,
That is simply unacceptable.
Dreadful or rather non existent coaching.
Even the most basic managers would have kept his back 4 in shape with the midfield tighter,
The emphasis was on Shaktar as they had to score.
Their main strength is hitting on the break, like against us in Poland and in their other group matches.
Thats what we should have done to them as they would have had to change their gameplan.
We lost to Betis last season when we were 2 up yet didnt just sit in and play it shrewdly, and paid the price.
Angeball can work in Europe with the speed and pressing, but if it means not being tactical in the other parts of the game then its inevitable what will happen.
I’d have Boruc, McGeady and Brown of that side in the team now.
Maybe Jarosik – no doubting he had the ability but he seemed only interested in European nights.
Not much between Giako and JVOH as wekll.
DENIABHOY on 27TH OCTOBER 2022 1:26 PM
Thats a very good point about the competitiveness of Scottish football. Club Brugge are being held up as being a great example of a team from a smaller league who can compete, even excel in the Champions League. They were on 10 points after 4 games against Spanish, German and Portuguese opposition. USG are top of their Europa League group, Anderlecht and Gent can still qualify from their Conference groups.
Brugge are third and USG fourth in the Belgian Pro League, Anderlecht 12th, the standard of the teams they play every week is clearly better. I dont know but I’d imagine they regularly play teams with bigger aims than conceding 80% of possession until the last ten minutes and then throwing the big guys forward
Good afternoon, friends
Just popped on to wish Drambowiecelt my very best wishes on your upcoming battle. One which you will win.
Hail Hail.
Not to say they dont also play teams like that, but not every week like we do.
Even the other horse in the two horse race plays dinosaur football
Best wishes and best of luck Drambowiecelt
“SAINT STIVS on 27TH OCTOBER 2022 1:16 PM
Why would the physical and mental demands of Angeball affect players ability to put the ball in the net ?
They miss chances in the first five minutes, and all through every game, and subs brought on miss chance at the end of games.
It is the players themselves.”
Good points re five minutes and subs.
The players themselves musttake some responsibility but I am not sure what they can do about it. Fine margins and all that. I feel the crowd has an effect,too. We are so desperate for success in a country which would rather Sevco harvested all Leagues,trophies and money that our anxiety might reach the players in some fashion.
Things to do so just left for me,too, to offer my very best wishes to a very fine sounding gentleman. Drambowiecelt.
Cheerio for now.
P67 — I fear that CQN is now the sewer carrying sewage from the boardroom to the fans.
AP and his growth agenda must have woken our execs from their slumber.
Some very pointed remarks — to the point of being a bit snidey — against AP and his coaching set up / squad development.
Not good — very selective given the dross / drivel / self serving nonsense that the board has inflicted on us from the summer of 2018.
I wonder — would you judge PL in the same manner?
Eighteen years in the job and he leaves with T/O stagnant.
Not a legacy that anyone would want — but nothing from you.
Not good.
MCPHAIL BHOY on 27TH OCTOBER
Let’s not forget that there have been monumental changes in personnel, manager and coaches too, with only McGregor remaining? It seems that the so called ‘Angeball’ is very similar to that style of play most top European teams adpt. The difference? Eye watering amounts of money available to secure and pay for the world’s top planet…
_____
Having better players will almost certainly make us a better team. One sad aspect is that the average Ukrainian player is far better than the average Scottish one. Shakhtar started with nine Ukrainians on Wednesday. The fact that Scottish players are way down the league, in terms of ability, makes life doubly difficult for us. Us old yins, when we were young, were far better player than the young yins nowadays 😉(and that’s a fact). Far better fans, I’d say also, but I’m biased there 😁
The 2007 team had experience of playing in the CL / experience full stop..
They were playing a style of football that they had played before elsewhere.
In 2007 we were a spending club — now at best we are a trading club and if dark clouds however we are a selling club.
Big difference that you might like to comment on.
They had a crowd behind them that still believed in the team at home.
They had a crowd behind them that sang football songs.
In 2007 a majority of the crowd had memories of Club 18/30 holidays.
Now too many have a taste in women that only extends to a couple of criteria — can they push a wheelchair and do they look good in black?
We are not the club we were in 2007 — PL stole the MON vibe and shredded it on the orders of DD / the Irish Raj.
A car backfires on London Road and the usual suspects shout for LA to be subbed.
We have not handled the implosion of our friends in Govan well.
MODERATOR1888
Hey good sir. Sincere apologies for engaging last night with the sick person. He said some pretty crappy things about me and I should have known better. Sorry to cause you early morning work.
Afternoon
Lots of blame around today and I am struggling to see suggested solutions – and I know I have not got much faith in my own suggestions turning out to be the right ones. I am not a big optimist, but I thought we’d do better than we have.
I did in fact think the team selected on Tuesday was too light in midfield- a 4-2-4 formation seemed wrong especially as the ‘2’ are also very attacking players by inclination. I have been surprised Mooy has not been used as the nearest we have to a midfield anchor rather than O’Riley in recent games and was certainly surprised that the Aussie never started on Tuesday but given that we are all about attack then I think we are always going to be vulnerable to the quick break – ’twas ever thus in the 50 plus years I have been going to games in the European competitions. As a team we do though seem as guilty as we ever have been in not taking big chances very early -and late on- in UEFA tournament matches. Although the ball came awkwardly to Matt O’Riley with 5 to play the other night I bet he would have scored if the opposition had been called ‘Aberdeen’.
Top sport is often about the self-belief as much as the skill players possess and, to my surprise, we have seemed less confident as the tournament has progressed – we have not played badly a la two years ago (except in the last quarter in Leipzig after the one absolute gift presented to our opponent), but watching Kyogo’s effort fairly early in the second half when he hit it very tamely typified not just that player’s reduced self-belief but that of most of his team mates. Only big Giakoumakis looked confident near goal, scoring expertly and having one other effort brilliantly saved. He could however maybe do less ‘barging’ as, like last Saturday, even though I think he was unlucky to be penalised when he hit the post, he seems to be a player referees are noticing – across the world refs will give fouls against the attacker if given the opportunity because it is easier to penalise a forward than a defender (even if it shouldn’t be.)
I like Ange and unlike Rogers I don’t think he is arrogant enough to not know that his system does not require some tweaks – and not just adding a couple of players. He needs to get his players to work on their skills but more I think he has to do something that will make them believe that they are worthy of playing on the big stage. Over to you Ange.
Jimbo
The lift we give other teams when they work out that when it comes to the CL we couldn’t hit a coo’s erse with a banjo if we were left holding it by the tail.
When we put pressure on both RBL and SD they started to wobble.
Very much like B/G 7 months ago.
Just a case we miss our chances and we lose the any impetus we have managed to generate.
TURKEYBHOY on 27TH OCTOBER 2022 12:49 PM
######
Spot on , Our efforts on goal are mainly aimed at where the keeper is standing . Kyogo on Tuesday an example , he tried to batter it through him but he isn’t the only guilty party . Don’t get me wrong I think we are playing some great stuff , but someone to convert the chances we are making by the barrow load would be a great help . HH
Kyogo, like most top strikers, is going through a barren spell. I believe he’ll be back soon, sharper than ever
B2B @ 11.55’ish
AM chat — quite a few areas of agreement.
It will never last …
One area where we seem to disagree is the state of fitness of AM vs the Big 3
They got to the top because they were talented / driven / resilient — not because the three of them were physically superior to the world of tennis in the last 20 years.
Consequently in that light — AM was in the ballpark regarding his base physicality.
They might have trained better / more intensity / better support but their regimes and outputs were available to AM. He is no weakling even if he is only 98% the athlete that his uncle was so he has / had the basics to work with.
Klubber Lang aka RN — RT only had his serve so that is a fair point but RN is a piano shifter and not a piano player in the world of RF / ND / AM.
Not his biggest fan — he picks his victims / tournaments very well.
As you note — he has a couple of good shots in his locker.
J67 @ 2.41
Our MF still needs a huge amount of work to bring us up to speed for results — not just some great moves / great attacking play — in the CL.
We had a VW sized hole in our MF plus our wide players are not front rank when it comes to the defending side of their role.
Tuesday our MF was a late starter from the J League plus a 21 year old AM with no experience at playing Pivot / DM and a CF playing the WW role of 1967 vintage– second striker dropping into MF on occasion to help out.
That MF set up needed a whirlwind start and two goals advantage to see us through to a win.
We had no whirlwind start and we only managed one goal.
No wonder they were walking through us with ease when they got some belief / confidence about them.
Then you have the defensive capabilities of the wide players we had in the team.
Compare and contrast with Napoli last night.
Lots still to do.
CELTIC40ME @ ages ago
Somebody has to cop ‘the flack’ for Tuesday night, may as well be Ange, armchair critics know more about ‘tactics’ than all the Celtic managers put together. Imagine you knew better than Ange Postecoglu, what a time to be alive!
True, the game has changed dramatically in 15 years, UEFA have sifted the wealth and put it neatly placed in packages, yes the CL is a handicap sprint, and we kick off well behind the pack. The coefficient was mainly created by Celtic during a nine in a row period.
Adding another defender or a more ‘pragmatic’ Celtic might only have altered Shakhtar’s formation and maybe not in a good way for this Celtic side. They were doing cartwheels at the end on the running track, because they’d gotten the point they came to get. Brendan Rodgers spoke about ‘defensive’ and is on record as saying ‘ we tried that and look what happened against Barca’. Pragmatic Strachan, Strachan GTF lost five to Artemedia ( mind them? )
It’s what happens next at Celtic, at the moment the squad has been made better than it’s ever been in just four windows, so on to playing less better teams and lesser fine margins next season.
The basis i.e.the support remain the catalyst for a Champion’s League side.
Drambowiecelt,
I hope this helps.
I was diagnosed with prostate cancer about 13 years ago. Almost all that time, I have been mentored by having my PSA tested every 3 months. I had a bit of a scare in April, as it suddenly went a fair bit higher. Prostate exam and scan (and further blood tests) quickly followed. The Consultant phoned me (a right Glashgow character, by the bye) to say he didn’t think further action was necessary, although he had consulted another colleague, before getting back to me. The next PSA test saw the count go down appreciably to below what it usually is. The Consultant’s reaction: that is terrific. Mind you, it has gone back to around 4. Why it has yoyoed, I have no idea.
As I said, I hope this helps.
ZIGGYDOC 1
you’re probably correct
Happy Lubo day
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=J9ESn7gPvKk
DRAMBOWIECELT
I was diagnosed with prostate cancer 3 and a half years ago. My PSA was 190. By then the cancer had spread to my back bones and I was classified with stage 4, ie not curable nor operable. Since then I have had various chemotherapy and radio therapy sessions to manage it. I have bloods taken every 2 months before seeing my consultant. My PSA score is 11 at the moment.
I have had tremendous support on here as well.
BSR @ 3.22
WGS chat and you bring up AMB — dunces cap for you / sit in the corner.
A better point to make was the Benfica away shambles.
Team had no belief and fell apart.
BR and the Barca humping — squad did not buy into his tactics / style of play.
SB has to take his share of the blame — we were lost souls by the end.
BR vs PSG — MD gave their defence the game of their life.
Doing it all on his own and nothing went for him that night.
“I think they’re fantastic.
“They’ve made massive progress from the minute Ange walked into that building to where they are now, he’s transformed them.
“They’re a top, top team.
“I think they’ve been really, really unlucky in the Champions League games so that shows you the calibre of where Celtic are as a club.”
David Martindale Livi manager.
MADMITCH on 27TH OCTOBER 2022 3:08 PM
‘ He is no weakling even if he is only 98% the athlete that his uncle was so he has / had the basics to work with.
Klubber Lang aka RN — RT only had his serve so that is a fair point but RN is a piano shifter and not a piano player in the world of RF / ND / AM.
Not his biggest fan — he picks his victims / tournaments very well.
As you note — he has a couple of good shots in his locker.’
================================
I used to work with someone who was an attention seeker like you too.
Like yourself he just continually vomited out total keech on a daily basis.