On the long walk along London Road after the game on Saturday I overhead, “Any manager playing one up front clearly doesn’t have confidence in his team”. I hear variations on this quite often. It’s not true. In fact, I watched the hot favourites for the England and Wales (see what I did there) Premier League beat their main rivals with this formation last night.
Playing one up front can be as much of an attacking formation as playing two, or even three strikers. Any formation, 4 -2-3-1, 4-4-2 or 3-5-2 is not in itself overtly attacking or defensive. Even the often ridiculed 4-6-0 can be expansive.
There are a few ways to score goals. Martin O’Neill’s Celtic mastered the set-piece. For a period, a considerable percentage of our goals came either this way, or from cross balls. There’s also the classic long ball to a ‘big one up front’ who can knock it down to a penalty box poacher. Both these plays exploit the advantages of direct play, which in itself can break packed defences.
The modern game increasingly relies on alternatives, specifically creating space and movement. Don’t crowd the box, drag defenders out to allow pacey support players to break beyond them. At the very elite level, one of the game’s greatest ever goal-scorers, Christiano Ronaldo, exploits this space magnificently from the wings. Our own top striker, Leigh Griffiths, played a similar role before being handed the No. 9 role at Celtic. I suspect his best position isn’t, in fact, as a No. 9.
We need many things at Celtic, most specifically a defensive mid (another formation story), but we don’t need to revert to a 4-4-2. We need players who understand the importance of space in the final third, and who can exploit it.
Ronny has recruited a flood of wide players since arriving 18 months ago with very little success. Which has had an acute cost.
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Never read such crap as this article for years,we are not playing in EPL,LA LIGA,OR EVEN THE EREDIVISE,WE ARE PLAYING IN THE SPL,AGAINST TEAMS ,made up of journeymen,hasbeens,or never were,players
Motherwell had 3 over the hill ex celts,and not very good one in their team,and we were,bloody awful.one up front,against teams that would struggle in English non league football,2 UP FRONT IS NEGATIVE THE LIONS HAD 5,and a midfield or half backs that defended and attacked.watching this piss week after week,is disgusting,we are at best 4 points ahead of the crap sheep,we won by 17 points last season,the season before it was over 30,what this year goal difference if we are lucky,we do better away but still look dodgy ,St johnstone could have been 2 or 3 up before we scored at perth,even when 3 up we looked lethargic nervous.if we had lost a goal who knows what might have happend,it is a sad day when we depend for goals on a third rate striker like Griffiths,
Paul 67…
Disappointing, and dare I say it, a slightly winalot article. Also one that contains a logic error so large you could drive a bus through it.
We need many things at Celtic, most specifically a defensive mid (another formation story), but we don’t need to revert to a 4-4-2. We need players who understand the importance of space in the final third, and who can exploit it.
“We don’t need to” – Do you have an ability to see into the future? Or indeed to have distorted time and space to try every team combination to divine such an absolute statement? You may think that harsh, but given the tag line “not lazy journalism”, there’s a jarring contradiction. By all means have an opinion, but lets not try and pass this off as anything more than an op-ed. And one that’s toeing the party line so hard you’ll be needing a chiropodist.
I’d hoped for something more substantive, but given the focus on anything but Celtic in the last few days, I guess it’s where we’re at. Your article also does a massive disservice to Martin O’Neill’s team. A team that contained Henke. A team that also scored way more goals than anything the current team can muster. And that’s before we even get to the European record of that era.
It does the current team and manager no favours to try and downplay the issues we have. Or the challenges we face. Not least the challenges that Ronny will face in trying to overcome the current mess he’s made of the team and, from that the lack of faith felt in his abilities due to these performances by the majority of Celtic fans.
I am NOT suggesting that a ‘Ronny must go’ article should have been published. Far from it, but an honest appraisal of the morass we’re in might build faith that the board and manager are acutely aware of how poorly we’re doing and are minded to try and fix it.
We may well need a defensive mid. However, I can’t escape the feeling that the entire squad is poor. Certainly the defence is a shambles, the midfield is MIA and the forward line, including Griffiths disappears when the bar is raised quality wise. And by ‘quality wise’ I mean by the Euro behemoths like….er…. Malmo.
/p
mike in toronto
I’m not a lawyer, I think you might be but are you saying that the Fab/Nev case and the Celtic/SFA/Sevco are the same except we lack the “cojones”??
Jaiketsaff & Co Attorney at Law:))
I see Mrs Fred Pastry is back
Paul67
The problem is not whatever formation a manager/backroom team/analysts adopt, its the application of it.
Celtic neither have the players or the coaching team to apply the system properly.
For instance, the new labeled best player at the club, i.e. Nir Bitton is a player unable to play in that system.
When the team are defending, he (and one other) are supposed to be the main cover for our full backs and centre backs and he fails in his duties, more often than not.
It’s the managers job to identify the problem and find ways of solving it, in 20 months, and numerous examples of failure hes failed to plug an obvious hole.
This formation requires at least 2 such players in the first eleven and Deila has none in the entire squad.
You can have as many coaches and what not but when there’s such an obvious gap that can be exploited, ultimately even teams of far lesser ability will end up prevailing.
See if Ronny tells the fans we are playing 442 will that suffice?
Cos positionally there would be little difference between a Ciftci / Griffiths pairing and the Commons / Griffiths pairing he often uses.
Indeed, even when Johansen or Rogic play they are often as far up the park as Griff.
The whole formation thing is a nonsense and just a stick to beat Ronny with
Bob O Baldy – I disagree.
Last night Man City and Arsenal played that formation. Of the midfield only Flamini and Fernandinho are holding players.
In the SPL we do not need 2 holding.
We do need better players tho.
If we had even VVD, McGeady and Hooper for example we would be doing better.
Its players not formation that is the issue
ONEOFTHE70PERCENT
Think you’re being really harsh on Griffiths far from a third rate striker .
guernica-Ciftci and Cole are as quick as a tortoise with asthma.
And re Bitton, he plays in the same role, same formation for Israel.
Perhaps the most telling post since Saturday was from the punter who claimed that so dire was the performance that in the run in to half time, more attention was being devoted to mobile phones than watching the game.
GUERNICA…
The whole formation thing is a nonsense and just a stick to beat Ronny with
Are you happy with the teams performance and results? Referring to something as a stick to beat Ronny with hints at the current criticisms are unfair or unwarranted. Do you really feel they are?
20 months in and thanks haven’t improved. At first it was players ‘needing to bed in’, now? Who knows? The team are porous and blunt. Whether it’s the formation of something else, it’s all under the gaze of Ronny. And he’s failing. Badly.
There’s a clear definition between being a Celtic fan and being a Ronny/Peter Lawwell/whoever fan. Personally, Celtic want what and who is best for Celtic. I fail to see how not asking hard questions of the manager when he’s struggling helps Celtic. I do see how it helps Ronny however.
/p
Im sure when Kris Commons starts with the first eleven team, the team look slow,and them few times he has startedm,wee dont seem to control the game,ie lose or draw a few games.i like Kris but i think he should be considered for the subsitutes bench.also i hope if he is still here Ronny,thats starts using the likes of Liam Henderson Scott Allan ,Gary Mackay Stevens ,Aiden Nesbitt,Janko ,and young Christie who will come aboard on January,plus young Tierney,and McGregor,and the young Millar from the development squad,will thy get there chance i dont know,cant be any worse than some who are in the first team squad at present.
1of70%
There are football leagues all over the world that teams participate in that said teams have different budgets, look at the Scottish Championship you could probably add all the other teams budgets and they wouldn’t reach the budget of the newest team on the block
As far as I can recall they don’t win every game……
Guernica
Should he not be changing the formation to suit the players we do have then ?
Bada Bing – yeah both are poor players no doubt. That’s my point, I do not believe any of MON, WGS or NL would achieve better results with these players over an extended period of time.
We have downsized. As a result we are not going to consistently qualify for the CL.
So why get rid of a coach who wants to work with youth and projects?
None of MON, WGS or NL did.
It’s a complete change of strategy or we need a manager with an approach in line with the board.
Guernica
In the Man City/Arsenal sides, you also have
1) Forwards who intelligently track back and support their midfield and defence in a meaningful way
2) Players who understand when it’s time to ditch the ‘this is ma bit’ philosophy and actively take part in proceedings even when they’re not specifically asked to
3) Better players, both with their feet and with their brains.
There is much less need for defensive midfielders when every player in the aide including the goalkeeper understands the need to defend.
Again, this is the fault of both the players and the coaches for not instilling this or not having it to begin with.
ONEOFTHE70PERCENT on 22ND DECEMBER 2015 5:20 PM
“Motherwell had 3 over the hill ex celts,and not very good one in their team”
Given the choice of the Dundee Utd trio or the 3 ex-Celts at Motherwell I would have taken Skippy, Big Mick and Pearson back every day of the week. GMS (the grinning man-child), Ciftci (the plank) and Armstrong (Ronnys love-child??) were a complete waste of money. At least with the Motherwell bhoys we know they would run through walls, and have done in the past, for Celtic.
Hail Hail
guernica-agree,I’ve been saying for a few months Lennoxtown seems a better role for RD,see if he can get more out of it than we are currently getting. HH
Bob O’ Baldy
I thought Giroud was excellent in this last night…
Our players need to start breaking sweat for the team..
BOB O’ BALDY
Spot on.
But more so we don’t have the players.
The system collapsed when the VVD and Denayer partnership was dissolved, take away
Scott Brown add Stefan Johansen’s form desertion and it’s totalled, at the minute.
Full backs that don’t have the qualities of Alves or Lahm completes the misery.
Don’t ask how we ever managed get to Ciftci and Cole ( plus Craig Gordon at corners )
P8DDY – I think we have a combination of it becoming far more difficult to buy players ( we were linked with a Serb DM who would have been a first team player for us, 19, off to Liverpool for 5 mil as a project ), having a reduced transfer kitty, no Sevco means less interest from ‘casual’ fans etc
As a result, we have a team which is made of gambles and projects.
The results we are seeing are a direct consequence.
A change of manager IMO would make marginal difference.
Unless we spend significantly more or get lucky re a couple of Wanyama / VVD signings then guaranteed CL qualification is not going to happen.
Bob O – in the same vein we are not playing against the quality of Man City.
No offence but I just find it incredible people seem to think a globally successful system, used by several of out players on Int’l duty cannot be deployed in our league.
starry …. I recognize that a libel action is a bit different from what we are talking about here ….but, generally, there are certain principles that apply to all disputes … setting out what you want, and why you are entitled to it is pretty much a given …. once in a while, you hold onto the/a key piece of evidence, and throw it in when it can do the most damage (the Perry Mason moment… but those are risky and very, very rare).
It is possible that Celtic is very upset by what has happened, and ‘keeping its powder dry’ as has been suggested, but to date, there is nothing in what Celtic has done that would leave me to believe that is the strategy.
How would I assess Celtic’s stewardship over the past decade? Probably a 4/10 …. has cut losses, but little or no forward effective planning, quality of product is plummeting, and has alienated a large percentage of its customer base in so doing…. never a good thing going forward.
How would I assess Celtic’s handling of the whole Sevco situation? Probably a 1/10. Could be a 9/10 if they pull a rabbit out of the magic hat …. dont know yet, but I seriously have my doubts that will happen, or was ever even the plan.
guernica…
So why get rid of a coach who wants to work with youth and projects? None of MON, WGS or NL did.
We must have lived through different MON, WGS or NL regimes. John Kennedy, Aiden McGeady, Sean Maloney, David Marshal, James Forrest, Tony Watt, Stephen McManus, Craig Beattie, Paul Caddis, Darren O’Dea, Cillian Sheridan, Paul McGowan, Feruz Islam, Charlie Mulgrew, Darnell Fisher to name a few.
Above are a selection of players developed and played by the above mentioned managers. All racked up games and made money for Celtic (or are playing for us).
How many players has Ronny given the opportunity to? Our youth teams have been wiping the floor with opposition for years, and all the above managers have brought youth in, tried youth out and, ultimately, generated good business for Celtic where the players didn’t work.
Ronny hasn’t given opportunities in the same number as MON, GS or NL. Actions speak louder than words. Ronny prefers his cannon fodder bought in from other clubs it appears.
/p
mike in toronto
I’m mainly interested in the Sevco situation, how would you as Celtic’s lawyer( I’m sure we must have one on the case or at least in an advisory role) suggested they handle the case.
Serious question as from afar and trying to keep up with all the nuances of the case over the last few years is almost like a full time case.
To me it seems like some chickens are finally coming home to roost, let’s fecking hope so as the alternative doesn’t bear thinking about.
P8DDY – that list cannot be serious?
Ronny has already selected KT in high pressure games (repeatedly and not thro necessity) whilst ensuring our academy players are in and around the first team from 15.
If you believe MON, WGS and NL had the same interest in youth, fair enough but we will never agree
Who would win in a fight between Chris Sutton and Andy Walker?
Bob O’ Baldy on 22nd December 2015 5:45 pm
For the most part I would agree with your views but it drives me absolutely nuts when I see our forwards anywhere near the box, for set pieces in particular. IMO they should be far enough forward to accept a pass/throw-out from the midfielders or goalie to counter-attack at pace.
Don’t even start me on goalies booting the ball up the park. This should only happen as a last resort when severely pressured, but even then the defenders should be available for the out ball.
Hail Hail
GUERNICA…
P8DDY – I think we have a combination of it becoming far more difficult to buy players ( we were linked with a Serb DM who would have been a first team player for us, 19, off to Liverpool for 5 mil as a project ), having a reduced transfer kitty, no Sevco means less interest from ‘casual’ fans etc
I’m not sure it’s became more difficult. Maybe a year ago, I trawled through soccer base to look at transfers and fees and they’d been pretty flat. Granted – The EPL/Championship is a no goer. And it would be wrong of me to say that you’re anything other than 100% right when it comes to the MON days – We could never get Sutton for 6m for example… However, Henrik was a triumph for 650k. And if the landscape has moved, we’re paying a lot of people a lot of money to identify new regions and new ideas. Those staff are influenced by the manager. I don’t think we’ve had anything like good value over Ronnys reign.
That said – I was surprised to find that our managers record isn’t nightmarishly worse states wise in terms of Euro achievements over his first 20 games – although the stature of teams has diminished….
A change of manager IMO would make marginal difference. Unless we spend significantly more or get lucky re a couple of Wanyama / VVD signings then guaranteed CL qualification is not going to happen.
I completely disagree. Teams with far smaller budgets are beating us. Malmo for example. A far smaller budget. Our UEFA league challengers all had smaller budgets than us, significantly so, and yet we finished the group without a win. That’s not Champions League standard, that’s UEFA cup. Smaller teams with inferior budgets comprehensively beat us. Bottom of the group, no wins.
Whatever way we look at it, it’s not good. Not by a long chalk, and the notion that our budget precludes us from competing doesn’t stack up.
/p
Auldheid
In relation to the glowing tribute to the huns by DD.
Surely somebody…maybe PL for example, should have advised him of the true nature of the sevconians.
Or would that be too simple?
Or alternatively….maybe he should read some books about Celtic:)
HH
starry …. would be happy to discuss that with you…. but, it would be a LONG discussion …. and, frankly, given that there is much that has not been disclosed, my opinion would be just that … my opinion., but I am happy to share it with you ….
as I am at the office, that will have to wait for another day …. or even offline f you prefer. you would be welcome to get my email from P67, if you wish.
but, suffice it to say that, in my business, (i) you dont get if you dont ask …. scratch that, you dont get if you dont scream blue bloody murder…in legal terms and in PR terms …. and (ii) if you suspect that someone is stealing your chickens, you dont let the fox investigate/guard the henhouse …
Mike in Toronto
Mike, that is too straight forward for some.
Some would allow them to steal the chickens, and then come back later for the henhouse as well.
Talking sense will get you nowhere:)
HH
mike in toronto
Roger that, I’m of the mind that too much remains hidden for me to make any judgement on Celtic so I don’t, perhaps I’m naive but if I am I prefer to live that way:)
Leaving the cynicism and sarcasm of London behind was the best move I ever made for my mental health.
Good talking to you.
What a great name for a Scottish Law Firm though Jaiketsaff & Associates:))
Time will be the great revealer
P9DDY – yeah these teams may very well beat us over 2 legs.
But show me teams who are consistently achieving in the CL on a transfer / wage budget like ours.
No manager will win consistently in the qualifiers with our budget because the likes of Malmo are getting better.
Look at Ajax, Red Bull etc
starry …. my approach to most things…. forget my training with the jesuits ….. or my training as a lawyer …. if I have a tough situation, and wonder how to handle it, I think back to the movie The Godfather …. and the answer can usually be found somewhere in there!. :)
starry … re: your post at 6:15 …. you probably sleep better as a result, and than I do. Perhaps, I should be listening to you, and not the other way round.
Pleasure chatting. I enjoy your posts, so, as I said, would enjoy continuing this discussion with you another time.
Happy holidays my friend.
GUERNICA…
P8DDY – that list cannot be serious?
It’s not only serious, it’s fact. And they made the club a serious amount of money.
Ronny has already selected KT in high pressure games (repeatedly and not thro necessity) whilst ensuring our academy players are in and around the first team from 15.
Are you suggesting the above players were player through necessity not choice? McGeady at £13m? Maloney and Mulgrew signed twice? You say “in and around” the first team, which doesn’t seem to be reflected in the squad stats.
In season 2004/5 The clubs pomp, MON had 9 youth players in the squad. Ronny’s current squad has less Celtic youth (after 20 months of his pro youth development) in it. And is absolutely on target for those players playing less games. Kieran Tierney has played 5 games. For such a bright talent, his appearances are eclipsed by the footballing “prodigy” of Ross Wallace 10 years ago.
If you believe MON, WGS and NL had the same interest in youth, fair enough but we will never agree
The facts show different. It’s not about opinion, it’s about fact. Ronny talks a good game about youth, but it’s not backed up in squad numbers or appearances. It’s a myth. An absolute myth. And I’ve based this on the MON era, pre ‘downsizing’. I’d imagine that given the paucity in skill at the club at the moment we’d be trying to bring through *more* youth, not less.
That’s not opinion, it’s based on squad numbers and appearances.
The reason I’m mentioning this is because I think it’s important to be objective. Not to be seduced by talk or emotion.
/p