On the long walk along London Road after the game on Saturday I overhead, “Any manager playing one up front clearly doesn’t have confidence in his team”. I hear variations on this quite often. It’s not true. In fact, I watched the hot favourites for the England and Wales (see what I did there) Premier League beat their main rivals with this formation last night.
Playing one up front can be as much of an attacking formation as playing two, or even three strikers. Any formation, 4 -2-3-1, 4-4-2 or 3-5-2 is not in itself overtly attacking or defensive. Even the often ridiculed 4-6-0 can be expansive.
There are a few ways to score goals. Martin O’Neill’s Celtic mastered the set-piece. For a period, a considerable percentage of our goals came either this way, or from cross balls. There’s also the classic long ball to a ‘big one up front’ who can knock it down to a penalty box poacher. Both these plays exploit the advantages of direct play, which in itself can break packed defences.
The modern game increasingly relies on alternatives, specifically creating space and movement. Don’t crowd the box, drag defenders out to allow pacey support players to break beyond them. At the very elite level, one of the game’s greatest ever goal-scorers, Christiano Ronaldo, exploits this space magnificently from the wings. Our own top striker, Leigh Griffiths, played a similar role before being handed the No. 9 role at Celtic. I suspect his best position isn’t, in fact, as a No. 9.
We need many things at Celtic, most specifically a defensive mid (another formation story), but we don’t need to revert to a 4-4-2. We need players who understand the importance of space in the final third, and who can exploit it.
Ronny has recruited a flood of wide players since arriving 18 months ago with very little success. Which has had an acute cost.
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mike in toronto
And to you Mike, I’ll chap Paul up for your e-mail:))
Don’t think many of us have a problem with 4 2 3 1. What we do have is a problem with playing players within it in the wrong position
Stuart Armstrong wide left?
Scot Allan wide right?
Ronny has destroyed the confidence of players such as Armstrong and GMS and is totally accountable for it
I read of posters on here today up in arms about an online petition to sack Ronny Deila. I have been reading an online petition from many on here to sack Ronny Deila. I do not see the difference.
GUERNICA …
P9DDY – yeah these teams may very well beat us over 2 legs.
Lets be clear, they DID beat us over two legs. It’s not a matter for conjecture. It’s fact.
But show me teams who are consistently achieving in the CL on a transfer / wage budget like ours.
You keep mentioning Champions League. The team that put us out Molde, are achieving more than we did. We can’t say ‘Ronny didn’t make the CL therefore we can’t judge him’. What we can say is “Zero wins in the Europa League – is that even approaching good enough?”
Considering we can’t win there, and are consistently beaten by teams whose budgets are dwarfed by ours, I can’t see a case for the defence of Ronny. If the best you can come up with is “Other team don’t do well in the Champions league” then we need to readjust our judgement criteria. So, I say, lets just on the Europa League. Was it good enough?
There’s a simple question for you – in *any* scenario in European football over the course of Ronny’s reign have the results been good enough? In any competition? Have the results against teams with similar budgets been acceptable? Have the results against minnows been good enough? In all cases, I think you’d have to answer “No”. I’m interested in your thoughts though.
No manager will win consistently in the qualifiers with our budget because the likes of Malmo are getting better.
Look at Ajax, Red Bull etc
Lets look at them – all doing better than us. Alongside Molde, Malmo and those European giants NK Maribor at al…
We are *awful*. Utterly and undeniably *awful*.
/p
Quonno
We were all aware of that and lived with it.
I’m making the very human point that as a person that none of us know at all he is likely to have reacted as we have to being cheated.
Sometimes I think we forget we are talking about fellow human beings here when we judge them based on little evidence.
On a positive note the Foundation raised 110 k from their Christmas appeal. A fantastic effort from all involved.
Elephant in the room; we don’t have the calibre of players to implement RD’s chosen formation.
it’s easy to fantasize about playing like Barca, Bayern or Real Madrid, but who the #### are you trying to kid? (see what I did there, old classics fans? I’m here all week…)
They all have the players to carry out the tactics.
When we play it in Europe we’re found out and pumped. And playing it in the SPL is utterly, utterly pointless – every side we’re up against tries to defend for the vast percentage of the 90 and take us on the counter.
We need to be busying their defence up with two main strikers and a marauding midfield pressing them back. We always get the possession and territory but under this current formation it’s wasted with a lot of impotent running about looking busy.
And my problem with RD, right from the Maribor game, is that he appears unwilling or unable to recognize the reality in front of him and adjust his team to fit.
But as far as online petitions are concerned I am only willing to sign the Petition To Replace Ronny Deila Without The Need To Resort To Petitions Petition.
MIKE IN TORONTO on 22ND DECEMBER 2015 6:17 PM
starry …. my approach to most things…. forget my training with the jesuits ….. or my training as a lawyer …. if I have a tough situation, and wonder how to handle it, I think back to the movie The Godfather …. and the answer can usually be found somewhere in there!. :)
– See more at: http://www.celticquicknews.co.uk/in-defence-of-the-4-2-3-1/comment-page-4/#comment-2742094
========
That is all very well but do you know how hard it’s to find a horse never mind it’s head in Glasgow at Christmas? :)
My god Auldheid you really are stretching the bounds of reason aren’t you. Firstly you are basically trying to invent an angry DD despite every bit of evidence to the contrary. The only people DD criticises are Celtic supporters.
Then you bizarrely suggest we could reduce our spend to dampen European expectations before then claiming that settled teams are better (it seems conveniently forgetting about Celtic never having a settled team cos we just sell everyone on).
Now what is the reason for all this desperate conjecture to try and paint the board in a good light?
Perhaps the chairman calling the Celtic support criminal racists was actually a sign of endearment?
Or maybe Scotlands racism should be embraced by us Celtic supporters cos,eerrrrr, cos. Well I dunno but no doubt you will try and find an angle, however implausible.
So tell us Auldheid. Why the desperation to prop up a failed board?
Got a bit too close?
auldheid …. here’s the address …..SPFL offices, Hampden Park, Glasgow, G42 9DE.
Oh sorry, I just read back …. my mistake … you said you were looking for a horse’s HEAD….
:)
never know when people will be on the blog over the holidays, so let me wish you a merry christmas
Hope all the players were watching Broonies’ fighting words during the interviews televised this evening. He spoke like a true Celtic captain, not afraid to say his piece, including have a go at poor refereeing decisions that cause us to lose out on the treble last year.
I wish everyone that takes the field these days would have the same dedication and commitment to the cause as SB. Perhaps only young Tierney shows the same desire to win at present. I hope young KT will be the Scott Brown of the future.
THE GREEN MAN on 22ND DECEMBER 2015 6:08 PM
Auldheid
In relation to the glowing tribute to the huns by DD.
Surely somebody…maybe PL for example, should have advised him of the true nature of the sevconians.
Or would that be too simple?
Or alternatively….maybe he should read some books about Celtic:)
– See more at: http://www.celticquicknews.co.uk/in-defence-of-the-4-2-3-1/comment-page-4/#comment-2742104
See my response to Quonno.
Are you saying that on being told he had been cheated (because he bankrolled MoN when he brought him in) his reaction was “why those bounder at Ibrox. What are they like robbing me of some me of my wealth”?
I very much doubt it, so why is it impossible for some to accept a very credible suggestions he was angry?
4 2 3 1 is fine if you pick the players to play it properly. We don’t play to the players we have strengths. We play a wide open farcical approach.
Numerous wingers that Ronny brought or that were wheeled in front of him?
Tonev, Berget, Wakaso, GMS. Ronny had those brought in while he has been in charge. He has had Forrest and McGregor from the youth set up and played numerous other players there out of position – Stokes, Armstrong, Commons, Griffiths. I’m sure Izzy played there for one game there may have been others. If that lot I would estimate Ronny having a hand in signing 2 players in Berget and perhaps GMS. Armstrong may well be a left side of a 3 to Ronny but never to any right minded football person.
Poor scouting, poor manager and a disconnect between scouting and coaching to boot.
Aberdeen assistant manager speaking on RS. Thought McInnes didn’t like assistant managers speaking to the media?
No doubt this will be picked up on…..
Christmas review :
Utterly crap from Celtic.
Lamentable signings. Lamentable Euro preparations and results. C3PO’s left hook packs more power than our garbage attack.
Getting rid of Ronny probably won’t help.
Positives are Tierney, Biton and Griff.
Lack of ambition is killing us slowly.
A merry Christmas to Paul and to all on here.
There is nothing wrong, absolutely nothing wrong with 4-2-3-1.
Tired of hearing people promote proponent of 2 up top, 4-4-2.
Watched Arsenal last night beat a class Man City team using the 4-2-3-1. The bottom line is having players that do the positions justice.
Theo Walcott, a right foot wide man, playing wide left.
Giroud, exactly what you want in a No.9 striker / target man
Joel Campbell, a left footed wide man, playing wide right.
And Ozil, playing in the central attacking role behind Giroud.
Difference is, when does Forrest cut in like Walcott, and score that type of goal as last night.
Ozil, world footballs best assist rate of any attacking player
Joel Campbell, works like a trodjen.
Look at our Ozil’s : Rogic ( good in one of every 3 or 4 games)
Armstrong (better suited to No.10 role) played out position wide left
Forrest ( little boy lost). Doesn’t influence games enough
Commons ( decent in flashes). Rarely fit enough
Gary McKay Steven, simply not good enough this season
Scott Allan….no played often enough, and again gets similar treated to Armstrong, out of position wide left.
Above is one problem. Next problem is the defensive 2, holding midfielders.
Recently Ronnie has played Callum McGregor in this role. Ronny Ronny, are you mad.
Bitton : has a lot to improve upon. Defensively and in terms of plugging gaps, and reading situations. Needs to improve considerably.
Johansen : been useless this year.
Brown and Mulgrew, our best 2 defensive midfielders : out injured long term
In defence, Boyata : decent enough in 2 games, then every 3rd match has an absolute howler
Goalkeeper, Craig Gordon… Has been weak and lacking confidence all season.
Taking all of above in to consideration, then it wouldn’t matter the formation. The players are way off form, and not producing the goods.
GTTF
Only assistants with the initials JC.
Auldheid
Seeing that I don’t know DD personally, I can only judge him by his words.
And what he had to say about Rangers/Sevco…was an insult to Celtic supporters.
So, subsequently, If he was angry when he found out about the cheating, why didn’t he say something?
If DD feels he has been shafted….He should do something about it…no?
BTW…I’m not having a go at you…Far from it.
HH
Good evening friends
Being a glass three quarters full type of guy it would be remiss of me not to thank Celtic for their failure to win on Saturday. Their poor efforts, coupled with similar performances from Man Utd and Inverness, has led to 29 competitors* in Last Man Standing buying their way back in to the competition. Preserving their history and putting another £150 the way of Wee Shay.
Thanks for all of your continued support. Back to the emails…..
Jobo
* – so far…..
Auldheid
That is all very well but do you know how hard it’s to find a horse never mind it’s head in Glasgow at Christmas?
I think the horse’s head in the Godfather was a thoroughbred racehorse.
In the Glasgow of my childhood ,you might have got one from the rag man ,the coalman or the milkman -:))
auldheid …
What is the evidence that DD was angry?
A respected poster (Barcabhoy, I believe) says that DD was angry. I dont know Barcarbhoy, but obviously some on here do, and trust him to be an honourable sort, and believe him. that is good enough for me.
What is the evidence that he wasn’t?
1. DD has never said so to anyone else that I know of.
2. If Celtic are keeping everything close to the vest, why then disclose something like that to someone who would disclose same on CQN? Which, again, is not to question Barcabhoy’s post, but to suggest that DD has reasons to say what he did, even if it weren’t 100$ true.
3. If he genuninely thinks Sevco are lying/toxic, why would he tie Celtic’s cart to theirs subsequently? (See his comments of last fall)
As I have said before, at present, I can understand why you view things the way you do, but I also can understand Neganon’s position.
the future will tell which of you is (more) right … I suspect the truth it will likely end up being somewhere in the middle.
But for now, that bloody cat of Schrodinger’s is really pissing me off! I might give the thing a kick myself when I see it!
Auldheid. Green man may not be having a go at you………
But I am………..
Awe ffs a gie up here…..long post lost….retyped lost again…..Merry Christmas Bhoys & a Happy harmonious New Year to you all…..
mibbe try again next year if i can be arsed
H.H.
An Tearmann on 22nd December 2015 4:31
I’m not questioning Lawwell’s timness
I’m not questioning his ability, im not questioning his integrity I’m questionning his judgement,
I 100% believe he thinks he’s doing the best for Celtic.
I think his strategy is self defeating and reductive. We are shrinking year on year.
Good article Paul. I’m personally tired of all this negativity and sense of entitlement (now which deceased organization does that remind you of?)
We lost on the weekend – incidentally only our second SPFL loss of the season. It was a bad day at the office and yes we are going through a bad patch, of that there is no doubt. However no domestic honour is ever won or lost at this stage of the season. We remain a point in front with a game in hand, so statistically we are on course for our fifth consecutive title and are in the two cups, so the Treble is attainable. Remember we last won this in 2000 and in our history have only won a few. Under 13 years of Jock Stein’s tenure we won two of those Trebles but lost five consecutive League Cup finals. Yet we remember Lisbon, 9-in-a-row, but not Milan, or worse the sudden demise post Dalglish.
We have endured real miserable times in the not so distant past, particularly between 1990-95, and since then we have been relatively dominant, all be it we endured standing on the sidelines watching the EBT induced former institution from Ibrox gain three consecutive titles before our past four title successes.
Have our standards fallen? Yes. Primary cause? Finances. Domestically have our standards fallen? Yes, but everything’s relative. The game domestically is keeping its financial house in order, while player squads are trimmer, younger and arguably less talented. We’re still at the top of the pile, while Aberdeen, Hearts and St Johnstone in particular are to be commended for making a fist of it this season. Yet here we are calling for Ronny’s head. Why? Because we’re not blowing everyone away domestically and we’re not winning every single domestic trophy at our disposal. Europe is another matter entirely.
As disappointed as I was about Saturday’s result, I’m confident enough to say that at the end of the season when we’re celebrating yet another title success and possibly a Treble (remember, last achieved under Larsson/O-Neill), then Saturday will be considered a statistic that happened mid season and had no bearing on the season.
HH.
Auldheid
You have my sympathies :-)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YZVqFmVNobA
Phineus CSC
Ha ha defending playing one up front against pub teams
Advocating support of 4 6 0
Thank god there was no CQN in 67 , we wouldn’t have crossed the halfway line in Lisbon
Grow up.
just saw the highlights of the 10-2 real madrid game … maybe not one for the purists, but that was hell of a fun to watch…. some great skill and goals, and Vallencano seemed to be making chances even down 6 goals and a man!
If we beat Hearts is the crisis over
Stairheedrammy –
Crisis, what crisis?
supertrampCSC
One up front – Ciftci or Cole, OMG. RD chooses to play 2 imobile concrete slabs as attackers in front of a crab like dysfunctional mid yet one of our squads most gifted footballers and proven goal scorer can’t even get a seat on the bench, wrong attitude allegedly. I have asked this before would Lubo get a game in Ronnie’s team of athletic non footballers? I doubt it, Ronnie, allegedly, wouldn’t know a proper footballer If he fell over one.
Ciftci number one transfer target FFS.
Oglach
He spotted Commons’ and Griffiths value right away though…….. ;-)
Are finances a large part of our inability to perform inEurope? No not when you consider the finances of the teams we failed to beat in the last two years. Finances guarantee us domestic success until a manager succeeds in failing spectacularly.
Is a 4 2 3 1 a good or bad formation?
Who can tell? I can’t with Commons played as a right winger and Armstrong on the other side. We constantly shift that 3 with no stability. Griffiths is the 1 because we can’t scout a centre forward. The 2 are not holding midfielders and neither can track back or make a telling tackle. It fails because the manager hadn’t had the right players but he picks the wrong ones when he has everyone fit.
Is Ronny Deila a good manager? Domestically he matches well with Neil Lennons record. He should achieve a similar points total to any previous champion but domestic matters are not the concern yet.
Mike in Toronto..
To clarify.
Barcabhoy never mentioned DD I did.
My information came from a credible source who said it shouldn’t come out.
I should have listened too him on saying nothing because it was good advice.
However I find that on a human level, assuming it probable DD saw or was told what is driving Res12, that what I was told is very credible.
I appreciate that this challenges some of the judgements formed about DD.
I think that a good thing as we don’t know enough to judge but that doesn’t stop us.
However I think it healthy that as long as we accept new information might come to light that might inform that judgement more we would be open minded enough to look at it.
All I have said is at a human level I find it quite credible that on hearing about the skullduggery DD was angry. In fact if he wasn’t then I’d wonder if he was human.
That does not mean I have any other opinion on the guy although I did hear once an unsoliciteded story of his kindness.
The reaction to me saying something I find credible says as much about those reacting as it does me saying what I think is credible.
Big Cup Winners
Lol
I have my Harpie gun.
Why does everyone compare WGS and Lenny’s domestic record with RD’s. Not the same ball game, a totally different paradigm altogether. Both NL and GS had Der Hun and all the associated baggage to contend with, albeit a mortally wounded Hun in NL’s later tenure. Ronnie’s main competitor is an average Aberdeen side.
stoptherevionistbullshitCSC
The Green Man 7.08
But all I did was point out that the words in the interview of Oct 2012 pre dated CF leaks and the absurd LNS Decision.
You can discount that if you choose just as much as you choose to use those words in the interview to support your judgement.
Our judgments are all in our heads like a cereble pick n mix.