3-4 wins at Tynecastle are the stuff of legends, games when champions show their credentials. The excitement, however, took second place to our inaugural appearance in domestic football with a Video Assistant Referee.
After taking an early lead, Celtic lost their way in the first half as Hearts pushed for an equaliser. A minute before the break Cammy Devlin knocked the ball forward an instant before Cameron Carter-Vickers made contact with the Hearts player’s foot. Referee Nick Walsh missed the contact, which was clear on first viewing of the replay, but the VAR seemed caught in the headlights and took several minutes to advise the ref to take a look at the video monitor.
It was all downhill from there. Within seconds, James Forrest drove inside the Hearts box but was stopped in his path when Michael Smith’s extended arm stopped the ball inside the box. This was the classic scenario VAR was supposed to address, a stonewaller by any measure, but fresh from his panic a few moments earlier, the VAR declined to intervene.
Anthony Ralston then scored an excellent headed goal but before the ball crossed the line, Nick Walsh blew for an apparent infringement. That early whistle meant VAR was unable to act. It is beyond doubt the referee made a mistake in blowing early, for my take, the goal should have stood.
Now we get to the bizarre episode. At both Hearts penalties, Hearts and Celtic players encroached into the box before the kick was taken. At the first, the goal stood, at the second, Joe Hart saved and Hearts scored an offside goal in the follow up.
The second penalty was retaken in line with the rules (a retake is the correct decision if players from both sides encroach). The fist penalty, which results in a Hearts goal, was allowed to stand by the same VAR. Either both should have been retaken, or as neither affected the outcome, both should have been allowed to stand.
Late in the game, Liel Abada scored what looked to be a good goal, but the assistant referee flagged for offside, confirmed by VAR. I am not convinced, and broadcaster Sky did viewers a disservice by declining to apply the cross-field lines they used for other decisions during the game.
It was an incompetent start with the new technology that did not reflect well on the SFA or referees.
I don’t want to put ideas in your head, so fee free to choose any one of the 5 million Slovaks, but which of them does Reo Hatate most remind you of?
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Scotland gets a new Tory Prime Minister.
Some on here given another reason to celebrate.
Which doesnt involve Celtic FC…..
I do believe that we need to call out cheating after a win BUT……..
I don’t believe there was clear cut VAR cheating (as opposed to Ref cheating) at Tynecastle.
I am one of those who thinks we did concede two clear penalties. Most agree the Jenz tackle was clumsy but as the ball was going away from goal- there is absolutely no need to award a YV in addition to the pen award.
At the first one, Devlin did connect the ball with his studs – this is allowed and big Giakoumakis has scored a few goals like that, Studs up is only an offence if there’s reckless force and intimidation to a player in his vicinity. CCV was a wee distance away and by the time he got there- Devlin had contacted the ball with his studs and was in no danger of contacting with CCV or any other Celtic player. It was CCV who initiated the contact (too late). Devlin cannot be punished for studs up unless he contacted another player or intimidated another player from challenging- neither applies here.
The decision to retake their pen was the right one. Ginnelly was not offside- but the Hearts player had encroached. So- I have no complaint about their VAR awards.
The 3 “VAR” decisions against us are actually only 2- the handball and the Abada offside. The Cinch highlights show that Abada was just offside- so offside. Lino and VAR got it right.
The JF handball, I disagree with and think it was a penalty, but it is not a “stonewaller”. Smith’s hands are in a reasonable shape close to his body when JF releases the ball. He takes his hand away from his body, making it momentarily “unnatural” but he does so in order to complete the act of putting his hand behind his back. Both Walsh and McLean felt it was fired at him too close and gave him the benefit of the doubt that he was trying to withdraw his hand behind his back. To my mind, the momentarily making his arm bigger puts him at risk but I do not think it was clearly a deliberate attempt to enlarge his body profile. I can understand why the refs felt differently.
Which leaves us with the Ralston goal only. Walsh blow early, out of habit, because he saw Giakpoumakis grab a hold of a Hearts players jersey. He did not see the Hearts player grabbing Giakoumakis shirt before he let go. The hearts player was travelling away from the action and the jersey pull was not influential in taking him out of play. The 2nd manhandling by Giakoumakis is not a foul- the 2nd Hearts defender is off balance and goes down under minimal contact (they were doing this all day) and to my mind comes nowhere near a foul. The goal scored by Kane at the weekend involved much stronger manhandling of Trippier but was awarded as legitimate outmuscling. But it was not VAR that cost us here; it was Walsh blowing early because he saw a jersey tug. Having blown for this before a goal was scored, I am not sure that it qualifies for a VAR review, because, even if Walsh felt he got the Giakoumakis tug wrong, he could not, then, award a goal, because the defence knew a whistle had blown.
So- in my opinion- we do not have an obvious failure of VAR; we just have the usual cheating by the ref- during play. My biggest bugbear is yet again, the ease with which fouls are awarded to our opposition for going down at the first sign of contact. Giakoumakis was completely frustrated by this by the end.
Let’s go to war over our anomalous possession v fouls awarded against stats but do not pick a fight on matters they can easily defend.
31003
Yes I’m aware of that but the implication from Saturday is that a precedent has been set (I know), in Scotland, a whistle for a foul a split second before a goal removes VAR from the equation. So Refs in Scotland should basically be trained in how things work – Walsh should not have blown and waited for VAR to judge the goal.
If that is the case then the Refs up here need to be made very aware of.
But what is the definition of a play coming to conclusion?
SFTB
On thing you’re not considering with regards to the allegations of cheating, and that is….had these incidents happened when it was Hearts v Sevco…..the exact OPPOSITE would have been awarded
Sevco player would not have been called offside, or been denied the handball penalty. Their defender would not have been penalized and a penalty awarded re the CCV offense, and the whistle would not have been blown before scoring, A la the Ralston goal
LIONROARS67
Under VAR, assistant referees are encouraged to let close offside calls run to a conclusion before raising the flag. A conclusion means the move breaks down or a goal is scored. This is to ensure that a potential goal is not wrongly flagged and play sropped. If a goal is scored, it can then be checked by VAR. That is what happened with Abada’s disallowed goal.
Referees will continue to blow for free-kicks for hand-ball or foul play as they see it. The only time such incidents will go to VAR is if a goal is scored and the referee missed a potential infringement.
The difference is that offside var checks are exact due to the computer-produced parallel lines. Hand-ball or foul play is subjective, so a referee must blow his whistle the second he spots the infringement, or not if he decides it wasn’t an infringement, in which case VAR can overrule him and disallow the goal.
A referee can also spot an incident but be unsure if it is an infringement or not so let it go, which is what should happen before oe after VAR if he’s not sure. VAR can then look at it if a goal is scored.
I believe the Hearts player took a dive when he felt Giakoumakis tug at his shoulder which gave the referee the opportunity to blow his whistle.
So only potential offsides are allowed to continue to conclusion pending VAR goal check. Free-kicks for hand-ball or foul play are called instantly if the referee believes it is a foul. Whether he is right or wrong in blowing for a foul is another matter altogether. I’m just explaining the rules.
Good evening all from Paddy Neesons. Have the huns accounts been published yet or have the SFA and UEFA been drinking more than me?🤔
MCPHAIL BHOY on 24TH OCTOBER 2022 4:39 PM
Thanks – Your knowledge is greater but I’m still paranoid
67ECW
Rishi Sunak Is 1.7metres
i think i can handle the hun ref blowing for the foul just before ralstons header (though why he then went to var is inexplicable)
that will be explained away by the ref not being used to the idea of letting the play go on and then let var check if there were any fouls which is how its meant to be done
but that will be an argument that can only last for 1 or 2 games
the non award of the hand ball penalty is a totally different story though
that was just plain cheating
Thanks for that clear explanation Tom
To conclude – the ole tradition of blowing ( or flagging – see George Cadette at Ibrox) when the ball is in the air takes VAR out of the equation.
That must come as a comfort to the Lanarkshire cabal
Who would win in a fight between one zombie referee and a.n.other zombie referee?
BOURNESOUPRECIPE on 24TH OCTOBER 2022 6:13 PM
For me there are better and more productive ways of reengaging with the support than this. Just because the fans want it isn’t necessarily a great place to start if you’re running Celtic.
It’s not reason enough to do something that experience suggests will end up affecting our success on the pitch. It’s in plain sight these days, what do you think taking them on publicly will change that didn’t in 2010?
Call it out, lose the debate publicly, which is a given when you’re dealing with Scottish media and you’ve gone backwards from where you started. You’ve not influenced anything or anyone.
It’s a big call, you need to be very confident that Celtic football club would gain from it. Given everything that’s against us, and how much the people you’re trying to change have to lose from it I don’t think we would.
If Jota absolutely thumped the ball so hard it burst on impact, but still flew into McGregors postage stamp corner…..do you think the ref would allow the goal to stand……or not?
I notice PhilMac gave Paul67 a dressing down in a recent blog over his pre match comments re VAR.
Quelle Surprise. VAR cannot work in a league like ours. The link between the Referee Associations and Freemasonry in Scotland is so close as to make VAR untenable. Nobody expects mistake free decision making in football. And even fewer expect impartial refereeing in Scotland. And asking referees which club they support will not suffice. Or even asking if they are freemasons. No, the question they need to be asked is;
‘Which Masonic Lodge in Scotland are you a Member of”
That awkward moment when Andy Walker tells you what Nick Walsh’s decision must have been.
I can see the conversation
Walsh…”Canny far anythin aboot that Stephen. It was a peach of a goal”
McLean…”Jist baud oan there Nick….ra ba’ burst when he whacked it…..let me VAR it….it’ll be naw goal ah kin assure ye”
LETS ALL DO THE HUDDLE
The referee did not go to VAR for Ralston’s disallowed goal. He was explaining to VAR that he blew for a foul and not for offside. It did look like it had gone to VAR but it didn’t.
Ralston goal – see Giakomakis is now the scapegoat. Wrong. The referee was determined to spot an infringement.
Smith’s handball – a stonewall penalty anywhere in world football.
The first penalty – very moot. Still not convinced. VAR operator required an eternity to torture the evidence.
Second penalty – a penalty.
Offside against Abada?? Notice that for the Hearts’ open play goal Sky provided graphs, pie-charts and commentators’ affidavits to prove legitimacy. Where was any of this for Abada?
bournesouprecipe
Is that in his platform boots?
the non award of the hand ball penalty is a totally different story though
that was just plain cheating
Yes James Forrest deftly flicked a through pass to a teammate, but he did not fire the ball directly at Smith, Michael Smith knew the pass had beaten him he moved his body to the left trying to block the pass thereby also extending his arm, he was hoping the ball would hit the body, he withdraws the arm immediately as experienced players do trying to cover a mistake, it was a penalty of the stonewall variety, body moving arm to the ball, as you say plain cheating
Top defenders all over Europe now keep arms behind their backs whilst defending attackers, they know how easy it is to give away penalties………..in a Celtic shirt SFA refs have a different interpretation
Evening all.
BRRB @ 6.57pm
Not a chance. :)
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BOURNESOUPRECIPE on 24TH OCTOBER 2022 6:59 PM
Rishi Sunak Is 1.7metres
Sounds like he could be vulnerable from deliveries from the left. :)
I’m starting to feel sorry for Tom McL having to point out the bare facts- all day!!
A great weekend in terms of football and results IMHO
Can’t wait for tomorrow, expecting another great perf and hopeful for a win
Giakoumakis up front based on the physical centre halfs they had last time
There’s enough on here defending the cheating on Saturday…..
Reporting Scotland on just now in background.
Kheredine Idessaine’s report on tomorrow’s game.
Shakhtar angle up first.
Celtic angle second.
Ban them Celtic.
On UK politics; Sunak is a danger to a Labour win due to competency but the Red Wall that went Tory for unsavoury reasons might reverse for similar reasons
The referee did not go to VAR for Ralston’s disallowed goal. He was explaining to VAR that he blew for a foul and not for offside. It did look like it had gone to VAR but it didn’t.
—
fair enough – but he took long enough to explain that to them. that wasnt really my point though which is why i put it in brackets!
what he should have done was let play go on, and then let him and var decide if there was a foul before the header went in
I agree that the denial of a penalty to Celtic was daylight robbery.
TOM MCLAUGHLIN on 24TH OCTOBER 2022 6:55 PM
LIONROARS67
Referees will continue to blow for free-kicks for hand-ball or foul play as they see it. The only time such incidents will go to VAR is if a goal is scored and the referee missed a potential infringement.
A goal was scored Tom, it was referred to VAR
What am I missing
BADA
I did clearly explain at the end od my post that I was merely explaining the rules.
If you see that as “defending the cheating on Saturday” then that’s your problem, not mine.
31003
“On thing you’re not considering with regards to the allegations of cheating, and that is….had these incidents happened when it was Hearts v Sevco…..the exact OPPOSITE would have been awarded”
———————————-
I am considering it. It just hasn’t happened yet. We have had one week of VAR fixtures and no such things happened in the Secco-Livi game as far as I could see on highlights. When they start to happen- we can have a presentation on how we are treated differently than them but I wouldn’t want to be going in with an argument that says they will, in some future game, get decisions that we won’t.
At this point in the game, we are long overdue presenting our anomalous fouls and YC stats as tangible evidence of being reffed differently than going with an imaginary scenario (I know it is not imaginary that we have been treated differently in the past; it’s just that we haven’t proven decisively that we have ben cheated under VAR. A judgement call hand ball is not the strongest evidence, even though I fall on the side of the argument that says it was a penalty.
Just for the record, the Jenz pen was a stonewaller and I am seriously surprised that he didn’t walk, Walsh missed out with that one, he will be getting a spanking for that me thinks.
Those defending the first pen really need to take another look at the incident, when two players are going for the ball, one with studs up, the other with studs down, no matter who touches the ball first, in any league in the world other than sectarianland, the player with the studs up is punished, end of.
Just caught a bit on ange at the pre match conference annoyed by a question as it was mischievous and he wasn’t qualified to answer it any links to the press conference yet? Never caught the question or who asked it.
Team for tomorrow;
Joe, Tank, CCV, St Moritz, Greg, Reo, Matt, Aaron, Haksa, Gio, Liel.
That may have changed since my previous selection, as I may have been hors de combat.
On the Hearts’ first PEN
Devlin beats Carter Vickers to a touch on the ball by a fraction of a second, both players stretching for the ball both have eyes on the ball, and no intent to play the opponent first before the ball by either player, Devlin does have his foot up, straight leg with studs showing, he makes contact with the ball with his big toe a fraction of a second before CV, due to the speed of Devlin and the very close proximity of CV, Devlins studs could have caused CV a serious injury, it is by no means a definite penalty, and certainly, if roles reversed would never have been given
CELTIC40ME @ 7.07
Fair do’s mate, I dislike VAR without a Scottish context, so I’m biased.
Bigger question, I was stood on Celtic Way @ years ago, and heard from an impeccable source ‘that Celtic would lose the public debate’ therefore they didn’t engage. The legal eagle then, was would you believe voila Michael Nicholson.
The monumental has already happened in our life time, VAR is a new obstacle that inevitably prompts revision in what we face, whether it’s in the cloud ashen Celtic end Frank McGarvey type of Hampden, or just the smokescreen dust in the Crawford Allen corridors of power.
Losing the public debate in an increasingly independent Scotland is no longer an issue.
SFTB
I am aware it hasn’t happened yet…..but you know and I know that had it been Sevco and not us in those situations, the outcome of each would have been judged differently…..why?……because it ALWAYS has
Can we dust down the ole dossier we had on the refs 😆?
HH
CRC
TET
I don’t think CCV was close enough to ever get to that ball before Devlin’s studs made contact with the ball ahead of the line CCV was coming in on.
And how often do you see a foul warded in favour of a defender who is hoofing the ball clear when an attacker tries to block and ends up making contact with his boot on the defender’s raised studs? – those are regularly awarded to the clearing player