Industrial performances, Ignorance of causality


Going by the looks of the photographs coming out of Romania today Ronny Deila and his players will be going a culture shock; the Stadionul Marin Anastasovici isn’t the Camp Nou, our more familiar European haunt.

The industrial surroundings should set a tone for the players, though, and industrial performance is required tonight, where the attributes of effort, attention to detail and strength of character are required.

Astra surprised many of us at Celtic Park last month.  After their capitulation to Dinamo Zagreb they were supposed to be the whipping boys of the group, but they can play and extended Celtic more than any domestic challenger would be able to.

A victory would be an enormous boost to our season, and to the development of Ronny’s first Celtic squad.  Question is, are we ready yet?

Ignorance of causality

Sometime between when the link between tobacco and cancer was suggested, and when it was proven, cigarette manufacturers mocked the research by pointing to a study which linked dental hygiene with cancer.

A perfectly valid piece of research found that – in their sample – the group who brushed their teeth daily had less cancers.  In any research you would expect random links, which is why the medical industry requires many studies before concluding on a linkage or treatment.

Yesterday Community Safety Minister, Roseanna Cunningham, told the Scottish Parliament that recent years has seen decreases in religious hatred crimes at football, which she attributes to the Offensive Behaviour at Football Act., which she informed us we spend £3m per year enforcing.  That’s a lot of police overtime to pluck fans out of their beds at 4am.

I respectfully disagree.  Ms Cunningham is blind to causality.  Top flight football in Scotland these past few years is a completely different place than it was previously.    The change had nothing to do with her government’s “horribly drafted” [Sherriff Richard Davidson] legislation.

She knows this, of course, but the landscape has changed over the last year.  The Scottish Government received an independent report on the Act in December last year but refused to debate it in Parliament or at committee.  This is unsurprising as the issue could have been toxic at a sensitive time.

Jim Murphy yesterday pledged to scrap the Act “right away”, adding “Sectarianism is a deep rooted and hate filled long-term problem in Scotland. It was allowed to fester and grow over many decades. Shamefully it was celebrated by a minority and silently tolerated by far too many”.

No other political party supported the Act, so it will not survive a change of government, but going by the polls that day could be a long way off.  That £3m per year is lubricating a lot of wheels, but the real cost is the politically motivated criminalisation of the non-intolerant innocent in order to “equalise” them with the absolutely intolerant.

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  1. Good to hear he is doing well. Sounds like his day is well planned.


    Was going to try and make it to our club today for the game also but have to figure out the logistics of sneaking by the boss at work :)






  2. Neil canamalar Lennon hunskelper extrordinaire on

    Why has you handicap went up bob ?


    You look younger and fitter than last year, in fact you look like a new man

  3. As I said when THEMS stop sending me Christmas cards funny as it was, but a true story also, they died and they told me that, they are a Diamanté now that’s how I see them.

  4. Note to self


    Don’t comment on Jim Murphy,Don’t comment on Jim Murphy,Don’t comment on Jim Murphy,Don’t comment on Jim Murphy,Don’t comment on Jim Murphy,Don’t comment on Jim Murphy.


    Mon the Hoops just win tonight , friend bought me a ticket for a concert on the “Ferry” tonight,doors open 8pm we WILL be slightly late:)))).



    Have a great day all .



    Tony D braw story that will be used by me at some point on one of them :)))



    Let the people sing


  5. .



    AC-DC after Bon Scott Died after they Recored Highway to Hell and they Changed from Columbia to EMI did they Tour Again after recording Back to Black or Did the Tour for the Very First Time..



    Highway to Hell and Black to Black are both Albums by AC-DC..?



    Summa of AlternativeCommentDirectCommentCSC

  6. blantyretim is praying for the Knox family on



    aye , thats what i thought when i say his name in the article…

  7. Neil canamalar Lennon hunskelper extrordinaire on



    Are you saying Bon Scott was AC/DC or was he one member of the band ?

  8. Auldheid



    Could you look again at the additional wording you included in your last post?



    Just want to be sure that is is what you want me to add and it looks like there may be an error or two in there?

  9. The Honest Mistake loves being first on

    Seems to be a lot of media attention being paid to the effigy of Alex Salmond being blown up in Lewes, East Sussex yesterday.


    I haven’t seen any media reaction to the two guys dressed as the pope being bombarded with rockets while the the baying mob were shouting “burn him”.


    Perhaps Englandshire has to bring in some offensive behaviour at a fireworks Night legislation to even up the score.

  10. mullet and co 2 on



    How many people voted for the SNP because they put through a bill designed to lift some Tims?


    Probably about 10 folk.


    The well to do wasp element that the SNP capture come msp time were never going to vote Yes as their allegiances are ingrained. Wives of ex BB members were known to cry at the thought of the Union crumbling.


    The Yes momentum later came from folk who have had enough of poverty and being dictated to. The BNP right wing, football hooligan, racist and sectarian rangers supporter element would never vote yes.



    Despite the bill Glasgow voted yes.



    Less folk lifted than expected but the victim feels better.



    Meanwhile the voices of the white underclass can be heard clearing their thoughts ready for return sponsored by their media supporters.



    The SNP would have been better off on the ticket the people of Glasgow and Dundee invented rather than outdated and plainly wrong uninformed reports from a rangers supporting political analyst.



    The bill is a joke. All it has done is worry parents and guardians of boys lifted for expressing an opinion. The IRA are no longer and the freedom to express your allegiance to that organisation is open to debate but criminal?


    Some of these boys show a passion and an aptitude for politics. I hope these years provide them with a guile to do what is right for our communities. We need it.

  11. Captain Beefheart,12.31,


    Usual mince!


    38000 Christian Denominations,is where the root is to be found with sectarianism ,have you ever read a Bible?any Bible,,the vast majority of sects preceded the founding of the Labour Party,or any political Party for that matter,it used to be called heresy,we call it PC nowadays,or following the fashion of the day,how long for instance before the Popes proposals on Homosexuality,is accepted by Cardinals?inevitability not infallability.





  12. Not written by me but rather borrowed, as a wee timely reminder from ScotlsLawThoughts, I hope the formating holds up.



    THE DEATH OF RANGERS FC – Guest Post by JohnBhoy



    There are those who maintain the myth that the Rangers FC formed in 1872 is the same club pre and post liquidation 2012. Here is why Rangers FC no longer exists.






    When it became clear that liquidation was inevitable for Rangers the overwhelming response from the msm was that Rangers, including its history, would cease thereafter. Here is a small selection of quotations, succinctly capturing this widely held view in the media:



    – The Herald: “Air of unreality as 140 years of history is formally ended in less than nine minutes” (The Herald, 15 June 2012:



    – Roddie Forsyth: “Rangers in crisis: the final whistle sounds on Rangers’ 140 years of history” (The Telegraph, 12 June 2012:





    – Jim Traynor: “Rangers FC as we know them are dead. It’s all over. They are about to shut down for ever…They’ll slip into liquidation within the next couple of weeks with a new company emerging but 140 years of history, triumph and tears, will have ended… No matter how Charles Green attempts to dress it up, a newco equals a new club. When the CVA was thrown out Rangers as we know them died.” (Daily Record, 13 June 2012:



    Of course, journalists are not the most reliable barometer of definitive opinion, but why would they express such an unambiguous view in the first place? Even Charles Green held the same categorical viewpoint [speaking to the BBC]: “…the history, the tradition, everything that is great about this Club, is swept aside.” This leads us on to the crucial piece of evidence contradicting the idea that Rangers FC still exists.






    When a company is liquidated its business activities cease to exist. The business of Rangers FC Plc was football. When Rangers FC Plc was wound up, so were the football activities of Rangers FC Plc i.e. the football club and associated merchandising etc. The BBC recognised this fact when they observed that “The Rangers Football Club PLC is a public limited company registered in Scotland (company number: SC004276) and was incorporated on 27 May, 1899. When the current company is officially liquidated, all of its corporate business history will come to an end.” It is now clear why the main stream media, including Charles Green and the alleged journalist Jim Traynor, held the unequivocal belief that liquidation signalled the demise of Rangers FC.



    Change of company name or ownership, or indeed a combination, does not in itself represent a cessation of a business’ activities. Manchester United changed owners when the Glazers took over but there was no claim that Manchester United FC stopped existing as a football entity. Similarly, when Craig Whyte bought Rangers FC from Sir David Murray, Rangers FC continued to exist. When Fergus McCann bought Celtic FC there was not only a change in ownership but also a change in corporate status, from The Celtic Football and Athletic Company 1888 to Celtic Football Club Plc. Owners come and go, as do corporate names, but provided liquidation has not taken place the business itself continues with an unbroken, seamless history.



    If company status altered the historical timeline of football genealogy then Manchester United Plc became a new club when it changed its company status from Manchester United FC Ltd to Manchester United Plc in 1991; similarly with Celtic under Fergus McCann; and with Rangers FC when Sir David Murray changed the company status in 2000 from The Rangers Football Club Ltd to The Rangers Football Club Plc, in which case there have been three Rangers clubs: one before the Plc, one immediately after, and a third after liquidation. The reason the allegation that change of company status alters a company’s historical timeline has zero credibility is because business continuity is not dependent on company status, unless liquidation has occurred.



    Furthermore, if a new company is formed – using assets bought from the old, liquidated company, for the purposes of operating the same type of business – it is not only a new company that has come into being but also the start of a new business venture, irrespective of the nature of that business. In the context of Rangers, the Rangers FC plying its trade in the SFL is a new football club and not the same club as that which played in the SPL. To deny otherwise is contrary to insolvency law. If it were otherwise then insolvency law would be a meaningless legal instrument.






    Legal matters can be determined by statute (Acts of Parliament) or case law. In terms of statute, there is no law that permits a liquidated company’s history to continue unbroken after liquidation: on the contrary, there is one to prevent such an event taking place – The Insolvency Act 1986. In terms of case law, there is no legal precedent to justify the claim that a liquidated company’s history can legitimately resurface under the guise of another company. Once a company is liquidated, its name, historical timeline and associated business activities immediately cease.



    In the case of a football club, there is no club in the UK that has been liquidated and resurfaced, after liquidation, with its history intact. In Scotland for example, Airdrieonians, formed in 1878 (under the earlier exotic name of Excelsior Football Club) went into liquidation in 2002. In the same year Airdrie FC was formed but because of insolvency law could not lay claim to the history of its previous incarnation, which to their credit they accepted with good grace. Other examples include Gretna and Clydebank.



    Rangers’ fans erroneously point to the case of Leeds United FC as evidence of a club that has a continuous historical timeline intact after liquidation. In 2007, Leeds United AFC Ltd, under the threat of liquidation, was sold to Leeds United FC Ltd, but with the important proviso that HMRC would agree to a CVA. HMRC did eventually agree to a CVA and Leeds was saved from compulsory liquidation. The club suffered a points deduction and after paying off the creditors and the proper and orderly transfer of assets from Leeds United AFC Ltd to Leeds United FC Ltd, the old club company was voluntarily wound up. If a CVA had not been agreed and Leeds United AFC Ltd had been forced into compulsory liquidation then Leeds United FC Ltd (i.e. the new company) would not have been able to claim the history of the old club. Rangers FC is a very different case indeed and Rangers fans cannot point to the example of Leeds FC as an exemplar of club survival after liquidation.






    Listed below are the assets of Rangers FC Plc bought by Charles Green:



    Assets Price


    Goodwill £1


    SPL Share £1


    SFA Membership £1


    Leasehold Interests £1


    Player Contracts & Registrations £2,749,990


    Stock £1


    Plant & Machinery £1,250,000



    Nowhere is Rangers FC listed as an asset. Nowhere is the history of Rangers FC listed as an asset. Yet, a thesis has been postulated that a company’s history can be sold as a separate item in a company asset sale. This is manifestly absurd. In the case of Rangers, the bizarre logic of that position is a) Craig Whyte had the option not to purchase the history of Rangers when the club was sold to him, or parts of the history that he did not like, thus wiping out any potential tax liability or creditor debt; b) after Craig Whyte, someone could have purchased the stadium while another party could have submitted a successful bid to own its history; c) if a club’s history was a saleable asset then it would also mean that a club, even as a going concern, could sell off its history to another club in an effort to raise money. All of this, of course, is unheard of, and for good reason: a club’s historical events are tied irrevocably to that club and a club separated from its history loses its identity and meaning. Crucially, when insolvency law kicked in and consigned Rangers FC Plc and its football activities to the past, the club and its history thereafter ceased to continue, except as an historical footnote.



    There has been an attempt to conflate a company’s goodwill with ownership of its historical timeline. HMRC define goodwill as “the value of the attraction to the customers which the name and reputation possesses”. The value of purchasing Ibrox stadium and playing in the same colours as the old club, given the record of achievement of the old Rangers FC, was obvious to Charles Green, but equating goodwill to ownership of Rangers FC and its historical timeline is an incredulous sleight of hand that flies against both the common sense definition of goodwill and the concrete clarity of insolvency law.



    To then argue that insolvency does not breach that timeline is to employ Alice in Wonderland logic. The effect of which would be to ensure that no football club could ever be compulsorily dissolved. By extension, companies about to be liquidated could adopt the same law-defying approach: sell off the core of the business under the asset “goodwill” and resurface under a new company name but with the same core business activities as before, claiming an unbroken historical timeline. Of course, this is nonsense because it is unlawful.



    Lord Nimmo Smith has been used in evidence in support of the notion that old Rangers FC survived liquidation. He said that a football club can exist separate from its holding company. Now we have the bizarre position where not only can a football club be separated from its history and its history be sold on (even if the club is subsequently liquidated along with its holding company), but a club can also exist without an owner. If the Manchester United Board decided voluntarily to liquidate Manchester Utd Plc then Manchester Utd FC would no longer exist, except in the minds of its supporters. To argue that Manchester’s history could be auctioned either pre or post liquidation defies interpretation in the real world of insolvency.



    Lord Nimmo Smith was also wrong when he said that Rangers FC still exists. He was reflecting the view of the SFA who, we know, know Sweet FA, not least their own arcane humpty-dumpty rules. Dr Gregory Ioannidis, a leading authority on Sports Law, agrees that “the history of a club cannot pass from one company [into liquidation] to another”. The import of LNS’ claim was that the new Rangers FC could be punished for the sins of the old Rangers FC, if they were one and the same club. If he had maintained that claim and punished the Rangers currently plying their trade in the SFL then a court challenge would have immediately nullified that punishment on several grounds: 1) such a punishment would harm newco and newco had nothing to do with oldco 2) the Rangers in the SFL is a new club (insolvency law saw to that) and, like newco, had nothing to do with the sins of old Rangers. In the end, LNS strayed clear of punishing newco in any shape or form and, instead, levied a futile fine on oldco. HMRC, like Dr Gregory Ioannidis, and consistent with insolvency law, also recognise that newco has no connection whatsoever with oldco. Unlike insolvency law, LNS’ philosophical musings are not legally binding; nor do they set a legal precedent.






    When Charles Green bought the assets of Rangers FC Plc he also purchased the old club’s SFA membership and SPL share. Prior to liquidation, Rangers had full membership status within Scottish professional football. After liquidation, the club playing in SFL Division 3 was allocated associate membership status. The reason for that was very simple: the Rangers playing in the SFL was a different club than the one which previously played in the SPL.



    Importantly, the new Rangers applied to join the SPL but their application was rejected, despite a mysterious 5-way agreement. If Rangers was the same club pre and post liquidation then an application would have been completely unnecessary, particularly since they claimed to purchase the old club’s SFA membership and SPL share. Of course, Rangers was legally dissolved after liquidation – hence the need for a fresh application from the new club. Similarly, the new Rangers then applied to join the SFL and this time their application was successful. Remember, if an existing SPL club changes ownership or its holding company changes from a Ltd to a Plc, it has no bearing on the club’s membership status and therefore there is no requirement to re-apply for SFA or SPL membership – it is liquidation that forces that event.



    Furthermore, because Rangers post-liquidation is a new club, it is unable to compete in European competition for three years. It is a stipulation of EUFA that a license to play in Europe can only be given to a club that has been a member of a national association for three consecutive years. The old Rangers did have a EUFA license but the new Rangers do not. When Rangers FC expired, so did their EUFA license.



    The fact that the SFA has allowed The Rangers FC to pretend that their history is continuous, contrary to insolvency law, has no bearing on the facts of the case and will forever remain a stain on the SFA’s reputation.






    [The credit for this further piece of evidence on why Rangers FC is a new club belongs to Gordon Johnston:



    The third round of the Scottish Cup 2012/13 consisted of 16 ties between Scotland’s smaller clubs, after which, in the fourth round, the 16 top clubs from the previous season – 2011/12 – then joined the fray. The 16 top clubs included the 10 clubs in the SPL from season 2011/12 and the top four from last season’s SFL First Division: Ross County, Dundee, Falkirk and Hamilton Academicals. Looking at the SFL First Division from 2011/12 it is clear that Livingstone finished 5th and therefore should not be considered to be among the “16 top clubs”:



    Position Team Points



    1 Ross County 79


    2 Dundee 55


    3 Falkirk 52


    4 Hamilton Academicals 49


    5 Livingstone 48



    Yet, Livingston got a bye into round four when they should have been playing in round three! Why? The regulations for last year’s third round were quite clear and ought to have excluded Livingston:



    “The clubs which, in the previous season, were members of The Scottish Premier League and those clubs finishing in The Scottish Football League First Division league positions one to four, shall be exempt from playing in Round Three of the Competition.” (


    The reason that Livingston got a bye was because one of the clubs in the SPL – Rangers FC – no longer existed. If they existed, irrespective of their current league or position in 2012/13, they would have been entitled to enter the competition in round four courtesy of the previous season’s placings. The SFA considered The Rangers FC to be a new club. Hence the creation of a spare slot, duly allocated to the team finishing 5th in the SFL First Division, i.e. Livingston.






    The club formerly known as Rangers FC is as dead as a dodo. The new club masquerading as the old Rangers FC is just that: a new club masquerading as the old club. Unfortunately, when conclusive proof of the demise of Rangers FC is brought to the attention of Rangers fans, there is an apoplectic response: one is either deluded or a Rangers Hater, or both. Fortunately, insolvency law usurps personal insult. The Celtic Story, a glorious club built on charitable foundations, winner of the Big Cup and welcomed throughout the global football fraternity, is quite another story altogether, but that is for another blog!


    Posted by JohnBhoy

  13. Bada Bing



    2nd last post in last thread


    I posted someone had texted suggesting game might be in doubt


    due to waether(Also FOG)



    Cant see anywhere on the WEB.

  14. lawwellsacountant on

    I,m sure it was Cunningham that said during the debate on the bill , that it was to get at one teams fans who had not been caught by the then laws,assume she meant us,and some on here call labour corrupt,don,t get me wrong I gave up on labour when they abandoned clause 4 ,but i will never vote SNP.


    another related thing I was at the dentist yesterday and picked up s free glasgow paper while I was waiting.The front page article was about a hun who was sent down for posting death threats to Neil Lennon and had pictures of bullets on his facebook page,he was photographed acting as a steward at ibrox on the hate fest called armed forces day with the murdering army personnel,this apparently broke his parole conditions,but I have failed to find any articles in the main stream press covering this,just shows what a crap so called country we live in

  15. Great article Paul, well said.


    Jim Murphy may well get something done at last but don’t forget, he is a politician, and politicians are great at “saying” but somewhat slow in “doing”. Always have been and probably always will. How many times have we heard them we are going to look at this or no stone will be left unturned, bla bla bla. As Nike say, just do it.


    we all know how disgraceful the situation is in Scotland, and instead of keep on saying it over and over and over again, it’s time someone actually did something about it no matter how many noses are put out of joint.


    In the grand scheme of things, Scotland with their anti Catholic, anti Irish attitude are a national embarrassment and until some brave bugger actually does something about it then alas, nothing will change.




  16. The Honest Mistake loves being first



    13:23 on 6 November, 2014



    Seems to be a lot of media attention being paid to the effigy of Alex Salmond being blown up in Lewes, East Sussex yesterday.


    I haven’t seen any media reaction to the two guys dressed as the pope being bombarded with rockets while the the baying mob were shouting “burn him”.


    Perhaps Englandshire has to bring in some offensive behaviour at a fireworks Night legislation to even up the score.





    I thought Alex Salmond handled it well when asked about it – treated it with the kind of light humour it needs. The other effigy is meant to be Pope Paul V who was head of church in 1605 when the Gunpowder Plot was acted out.

  17. Coneybhoy,



    Noooo. We had enough puns before the last game ;)




    Aw man is it not kickoff time yet? Work is soooooo slow today.

  18. johann murdoch on

    TBB-or “Bob”-did you remember to pay the facepainter who was at the last family shindig at the golf club?

  19. Tonight will be very tense indeed. Astra (how does one pronounce Giurgiu? Is it GEE-OOR-GEE-OO? Sod it just Astra) did stretch us at home, but with very simple passing moves. If that happens again we will all be shouting at the tele and falling out with each other on here. I personally will be shouting at Izaguirre, as I like to be fashionable…

  20. The Battered Bunnet on

    You’re not going to believe this but…



    Turns out Bob was officially playing off 23. The fecher hadn’t shot a round above 76 in a competition for 10 years, but had never put in a medal card below 90.

  21. .



    Can I Ask CQN a Honest Question for My Own Sanity and a Rough Guide to Celtic Supporters Circa 2014..



    Kitalba 13:28.. Nearly 3 Years on from Jelly and Ice Cream..



    Who actually read even a Third of that Post..?



    This is a Serious Question.. As I have Ever asked..



    Forrest Gump springs to Mind..




  22. The Battered Bunnet on

    “Jim Murphy yesterday pledged to scrap the Act”



    Hmmm. Where does a ‘pledge’ sit on the spectrum of Promise-Vow?

  23. Davidopolous,



    I thought most of Astras good stuff came from our own errors.



    As usual, Celtic is the team I fear the most going into these kinda games.



    Tonight I will be shouting mainly at the sprogs….just cos :)

  24. Summa:



    I read all of it before copy and pasting, otherwise how would you know what is in it?



    Of course it is the prerogative of all to just scroll on past but I personally think it has a fair bit of relevance even today on the birthday of Scotland’s most successful, living, football club.

  25. Neil canamalar Lennon hunskelper extrordinaire on



    Cheers for that repost of a great article, I think JohnBhoy missed a trick after this section,



    “Legal matters can be determined by statute (Acts of Parliament) or case law. In terms of statute, there is no law that permits a liquidated company’s history to continue unbroken after liquidation: on the contrary, there is one to prevent such an event taking place – The Insolvency Act 1986. In terms of case law, there is no legal precedent to justify the claim that a liquidated company’s history can legitimately resurface under the guise of another company. Once a company is liquidated, its name, historical timeline and associated business activities immediately cease”



    The SFA and everyone else trying to facilitate the same club lie are actually breaking the Insolvency law quoted in that paragraph, this is allowing fraudulent claims which is also against the law, no ?

  26. The Battered Bunnet



    13:44 on 6 November, 2014



    “Jim Murphy yesterday pledged to scrap the Act”



    Hmmm. Where does a ‘pledge’ sit on the spectrum of Promise-Vow?




    No idea – but it’s at least an aknowledgement that it is a piece of nonsesne that needs to be repealed. Which is more than the current Scottish Government are admitting.