After a series of incidents when the country’s lowlifes threw objects at footballers (at least one was a Celtic fan) the media have presented you with a simple solution: strict liability. Strict liability punishes the club whenever its supporters misbehave. On occasion, the home club is punished, even when away fans misbehave, and on fewer occasions, the home club is punished when a completely unconnected ‘fan’ transgresses, as happened to Rangers during a European tie decades ago, when an apparent Celtic fan affixed himself to a post like a Leigh Griffiths scarf.
Coins and bottles being thrown is a depressing reality. As a consequence, anyone with half a brain will want action taken, but I have a problem with strict liability – it is action, for actions sake. It does not work.
Uefa impose strict liability on clubs in European competition. Celtic have routinely been fined hundreds of thousands of euros, without any inhibition on offending rates. No one seriously believes that would change with fines in domestic football.
Is anyone suggesting the outcome of a league title should be determined by points deducted because an idiot threw a coin? And if so, who would be the arbitrator of such a decision? How would you stop a Celtic fan again going to Ibrox to cause problems? You would incentivise this behaviour, which is lunacy of the highest order.
Scottish football resists strict liability because, like most simple solutions to complex problems, it does not work anywhere it is practiced.
We know lots about this behaviour. Many women and girls attend Scottish football, but throwing dangerous objects is a male-only practice. It is a manifestation of male violence, a consequence of many complex issues.
For an instant, the thrower of a coin is the alpha male, albeit a very pathetic one, but he gets a ‘hit’. If his act generates significant media coverage, the instant can become a week. If his club is fined, or the reputation of his fellow fans is tarnished, he does not care. He is a free rider.
Football-attending nutcases who are caught are all repentant in the dock, but object throwers are seldom caught, which is why we have a problem. It is a criminal act without personal consequences. All measures which do not connect the offender with the consequences will fail. The logical outcome to all of this will be greater video surveillance – this is what the police will suggest.
The real question is, what is society’s appetite for addressing indiscriminate male violence? If we want to outsource the problem to football clubs, I suggest its’ not very great.
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The Huns think that Rodgers is nailed on to buy El Buffalo for Leicester, maybe 20/25 million and this together with the 5 million ‘Profit’ they have already made this season will give them a 30 million kitty to chase us down next year. It beggars belief.
warm baws went cool
Dons or Sevco
ANYBODY know FADDY tell him i am sorry for thinking he was BOYD.
Colour me surprised that we draw Dons or Sevco
Hopefully the Dons do the business at Ibrox but no fear of either if we turn up.
No flu or stomach bugs this time.
We were bound to get them(s), Operation Stop the 3/3 in full swing
Sevco will be so excited about the prospect of a semi-final against us , they will lose concentration against the Dons and lose the replay :-))
JJ
Fieldofdrams
We haven`t got THEM yet.
JJ
I think it’s the best draw we could get. If they beat Sheep & avoid us they would get to Final and we have to play them anyway.
This way we get a chance to put them out earlier depriving them of some additional finances & if by any mischance the unthinkable happens at least we will be spared the sight of them lifting the Cup.
Remember when they did beat us in the penalty shoot out, it was almost worth it, the way Hibs beat them.
BSR 7.41
I played against Colin McGlashin as a juvenile and in schoolboy football.
He attended Bell Baxter high school in Cupar .
I think he came from the village of Newburgh.
He played on a Sunday for Dundee Celtic boys club.
They were the best side in Scotland in there age group.
He was the best player I ever played against.
A real Gerd Muller type centre forward.
He had a hole in his heart which curtailed his senior career.
As wee anecdote .
At the famous 4-2 ( 10 men won the league ) match .
We were late getting into the stadium .
There were crushing cues at the turnstiles trying to get into the Celtic end ,Janefield street corner.
I ended getting squashed ( 15 years old ,and Tiny ) up against the big wall with the barbed wire on top.
It was genuinely scary,and almost a disaster.
I eventually got into the turnstile ,and squashed behind me was Colin McGlashan.
I got sight of the pitch just as Alex McDonald scored for oldco.
10 to 15 years later .
I was in a pub in Glasgow and I met Colin McGlashan .
He was on a night out with PTFC players.
I mentioned the Celtic ,thinking that he was a Tim.
Apparently,he was just a the match for the experience.
He wasn’t very friendly ,and had no interest in discussing Celtic or our schoolboy fitba days.
Fifers Eh!
Fantastic draw.
Great timing too.
Our top players all back from injury and tie taking place after 5 consecutive weeks of one game per week.
Hail hail
My Jags fans are as usual expecting to lose to Hearts . Love it if they get through. I think we won’t this year. No reason other than seeing too many under Neil
If Moreloss gets carded v Sheep next week, he misses next round, Clancy to be briefed in the morning.
I’ve got
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eab_beh07HU
about things at the moment.
Excellent draw for us, treble treble looking good.
For the huns to win the cup at this stage, they will have to beat the sheep, then US, then no disrepect to the Jags but probably the jambos.
If they can do that, then they will probably deserve it, but cannot see that happening.
CorkCeltNo no problem. Found it ab overpowering experience being in the cell in the hosting where he died.
Must check out the RTE show.
Árd Macha
SFA announce potential Celtic V Sevco tie will be played at Murrayfield. If Hearts qualify their tie will be played at Pittodrie.
No surprises there then :-)
Anybody in the Milngavie area hearing any cheers wafting over the fields at Auchenhowie yet?
A lesson from Brendan Rgoers appointment.
Now if I were on the Board I’d be asking questions about the risk involved in not just employing a manager but also the team that he wants to support him.
There are stories that BR tried to entice away more than his own men.
Neil Lennon has paid great tribute to John Kennedy and the help he has provided.
Stability is very important for a club who want to be successful every season.
What Id be looking into is establishing a team that stays and works with any manager appointed and any manager appointed would take the job on that basis.
Of course it is an easier sell to an incomer if the in house team has a good pedigree for coaching and player development.
If BR has taught us one thing it is the dangers of a personality cult where all hopes are pinned on one guy.
So I’m not into bringing in guys who only see Celtic as a stepping stone at manager level to the EPL. which is a reason for appointing NL longer term. That and looking forward to a game in Europe again.
However if we allow personality to hold sway then back room stability is essential. We might even promote from there if it were not perceived as lacking ambition.
Bloom where you are planted I say.
Billy Bhoy, What is the point of your 10.05 post. Maybe there is a clever joke in there but I can’t see it.
Just for clarity Celtic Official site saying the obvious. Semi Finals are in Hampden.
Evening Troops….
The sfa will do NOTHIN about the incidents we’ve all witnessed increasingly over these past few weeks, (by the way, has the singing of sectarians songs and violence both on the terracing and outside the grounds increased in the last few years for some reason??). They would need to start with the stabbings, street battles, incitement to gather for the purposes of an illegal gathering and march, (the preaching (from high office) to encourage others to break the law by refusing to pay a tv license. They would then need to look at behaviour on the park and comments made by managers, before tackling the louts in the sewers.
No, what they will do is Hammer a Cowdenbeath or a Brechin or an East Fife for one of their fans jumping onto the running track to celebrate their Teams goal. The sfa’s team has silveware to win this season, and Nothin will stand in their way.
HH
Corkcelt
It was just a wee joke referring to last season’s semis when the SFA managed to infuriate every club and every set of fans with the farcical handling of the fixtures.
You might recall they defended their arrangements, stated they were not going to be changed – then bowed to pressure and changed them.
Jam Tarts going for Levein big time after tonight. Heard chanting abusive songs about him leaving Firhill.
AULDHEID on 4TH MARCH 2019 10:20 PM
Couldn’t agree more . The Brendan Rodgers experience will have had some value for us if we take it as a salutary lesson and a learning opportunity.
Players who see us as a stepping stone and get itchy feet after a season or so , that’s one thing.
Managers who do the same are a destabilising influence.
AULDHEID on 4TH MARCH 2019 10:20 PM
We showed great loyalty to John Kennedy after his injury.
I like to think he returned that loyalty .
Perhaps at financial cost to himself.
OK Billy, no harm in that, Old Grumpy Boots here didn’t twig what you were on about.
I’d love for us to beat Aberdeen on our way to 3×3.
Beating the minis to clinch it would be fun in sun.
HH jg
How focused will Aberdeen be at CP next Saturday?
Their chances of winning the league are remote if not nigh on impossible.
Their best chance of a trophy this season is the cup.
With a replay at Ibrox on Tuesday night, they should be concentrating on the cup tie.
Will McInnes rest some of his first team?
Will he see it as a chance to see how fringe players will handle a big game?
Or will he think our recent turmoil represents the best chance of an upset?
Whether he does or not I expect us to underline our superior squad with 3 more points.
TINYTIM on 4TH MARCH 2019 9:34 PM
Brilliant wee anecdote.
AULDHEID on 4TH MARCH 2019 10:20 PM
Always thought John Kennedy as a coach in and around the first team was a strange one in terms of experience of playing the game but you make a good point. That’s why I have always thought well of him as a man aboot the place.
Good club guy that provides some continuity and if the rumours are true that BR tried to pinch him as well then even more kudos to the fella.As MACJAY1FOR NEIL LENNON says as well, at some financial cost?
HH!
Just watched BBC Scotland news article by Reevel Alderson which I had recorded earlier
BBC desperately trying to get equivalence .
I rewound to get the exact quotes which accompany the videos
Pitodrie
“A seat ripped out and hurled toward home fans, and in the Aberdeen section a red flare ….violence at football.
A bottle is thrown toward Scott Sinclair, a green flare is later thrown on to the pitch….violence at football.”
“3 years ago a pitch invasion and fighting after Scottish Cup final , more than 100 fans were subsequently arrested.
Violence at football”
( The footage used here was the Hibs fans spilling on to pitch….they must have been fighting themselves !!)
According to Reevel we know it was an Aberdeen fan with the flare…… but Reevel is probably too scared to actually say “Rangers fan throws seat”
BBC still on message.
The Onlooker
I would imagine that BR has already sounded out the players he wants from us . boyata I would say will probably join up with berkovic again , but wouldn’t,t surprise me if he has had a wee quiet word with a few others . We have known for a while boyata would be off , berkovic would be returning to his club , the chance of the same scenario will probably arise with weah , Burke ,and toljan . If that passes ,then Lenny will need backed to the hilt to replace the boys we are going to lose . If we have a scouting system in place ,by now they should be well advanced in looking for quality replacements , by the end of the transfer window ,we will be aware how serious our suits are to keeping the celts top of the tree ,and if the quest for 10 is as important to them as it is to us .
TONTINE TIM @ 5:18 PM,
CHAIRBHOY on 4TH MARCH 2019 10:17 AM
“There is much to admire about Scottish football and the values it holds but winning the league is what is expected of the Celtic manager now. It is the bare minimum requirement. Anything else would be failure.”
It’s a poison chalice to a certain extent… you wouldn’t want to be the ghuy who drops the ball on the way to 10iar…
*and that to me is why he jacked it in, it seems that he was for the joe the toff in the summer and although we would have been urinated off would have eventually accepted it, as WGS once said the Celtic job has a 3 year shelf life so he left a year early.
However, seemingly DD who sanctioned his and his staffs hiring and authorised him getting a shed load of money which IMHO he wasted in the transfer market, well not all of it, jumped all over him and forced him to stay but not before he demanded PL find a Plan B, something that buck seemingly never had on the field.
BTW can anyone tell me what Kolo Toure actually did apart from a wee jig in the dressing room, he only played 11 games and was in the team at the Nou Camp along with that other fraudgers failure Dorus Day.
His foray intae the market after Edouard, a player we were delighted to sign as a foil for the big Moose, was curtailed as it seems he was trying tae flog the latter.
As for young McGinn, mibbees his grampa put him wise tae the situation and asked him tae cool his heels, also mibbees again DD suggested that PL tell putrid and dumpster tae stick their craft and eastern star up their erses.
And Piccini, let’s get a grip here, who in their right mind after spending time in Florence, Seville and Lisbon would now swap the Mestalla for Glasgow, there are plenty of ex-pats on here, how many would go back tae the incestual wee bigoted and racist country.
IMHO again should Lenny be here next season John McGinn will surely follow him and not to the King Power Stadium
Well, not unusually, you cover a lot of ground there…
Your points are well made and as the whirlwind of hearsay and invective envelops us all whose to say what went on.
My feelings have been much the same all the way through the Brendan Rodgers Era, it has been subsumed in the P/L Epoch.
Why the C-F, who knows? BR obviously thought Celtic PLC were going to break the bank to provide him the firepower to make Celtic a European player again.
Celtic PLC obviously had different ideas… they hadn’t got where they were today by recklessly spending money on known talent.
So you could well be right, DD might well have told his football management coaches to screw the nut, he may well of told his Board to find plan B… What we know is for whatever reasons the EGOS got in the way and both sides dug their heels in and weren’t prepared give way no matter how much damage it did to Celtic Football Club.
When you have folk in the Boardroom and you have folk in the dug out that are much more important than “Celtic” you have a problem.
On your specific points…
I think Kolo was brought in for the short term to shore up a very inexperienced defence… after his initial positive contributions they used his obvious charisma to mentor the squad as a coach.
I think the plan was to play Moussa with Edouard for a season, to mentor EO and provide a tour~de~force up front… I’m totally convinced if BR was supported in his plans during the summer, we would have been playing UCL football and still be in the Europa.
As far as McGinn and Puccini goes I take your point. Yet there should have been alternatives to Puccini and McGinn’s transfer should have been shooting fish in a barrel. The fact is there are people whose job it is at Celtic to close deals… that’s a necessity in any operation. If your not doing that your failing business management 101.
Interestingly WGS said it would take him three Seasons to establish himself… he won the league in his first three seasons and blew it in the fourth:)
Maybe BR didn’t fancy the poisoned chalice he was asked to do more and more, with less and less… it was always going to end in tears…
As for a shed load of money like Lenny and Ronny before him, I dont think for pne moment Brendan was in charge of bringing players in. Celtic brought more money in on player sales than the forked out under Lenny, Ronny and Brendan…
We are a selling Club… Sad but true…
Hail Hail
All most of us can do about understanding what actually goes on behind the scenes at Celtic Park is to speculate .
Most speculation tends to lean towards one`s personal attitudes to the corporate structure in place .
Some of us feel the necessity to ” blame the Board ” for whatever negative event befalls Celtic.
Whether on or off field.
What do we know about the departure of Brendan ?
We know that it was Brendan`s decision .
The rest is speculation.
My speculation , which I like to feel …..:-)……is soundly based , is that Brendan was motivated by Hugh Briss.
And nobody else .
MACJAY1 FOR NEIL LENNON on 4TH MARCH 2019 10:58 PM
AULDHEID on 4TH MARCH 2019 10:20 PM
We showed great loyalty to John Kennedy after his injury.
I like to think he returned that loyalty .
Perhaps at financial cost to himself.
=============================
True loyalty swings both ways
AULDHEID on 5TH MARCH 2019 12:27 AM
Intriguing.
Are you suggesting that there was a lack of loyalty ?
On the part of Brendan ?
Or….. Perhaps Celtic ?
A Rangers player I respected .
Amongst a plethora I did not .
https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/47442762
Unacceptable Behaviour by Fans – an alternative view & just one man’s opinion
No strict liability for SPFL clubs is a copout for those clubs.
A collective shrugging of shoulders by businesses that open their doors & admit the public, at a price, and who especially encourage families to come in & enjoy the experience at their place of business.
At these “family friendly” places, thugs, idiots & morons let off smoke flares, throw coins, throw bottles, damage seats, throw seats at other fans, do their drugs in the toilets, chant disgusting stuff about terminally ill men & aggressively challenge anyone who attempts to talk them out of doing what they’re doing. These places are no longer fit places for families to attend but we’re told that there is no solution other than Big Brother saturation CCTV coverage in some dystopian future world. That’ll make the OBAF seem like a pleasant dream.
When we make excuses for doing nothing by saying that the innocent shoudn’t pay for the crimes of these criminals then we are missing the point completely. The innocent are already paying for their crimes – they either attend & have to run the risk of missiles or smoke or violence or else they just stop going altogether. It seems that that particular excuse for not imposing strict liability should be changed to “it would hurt those that attend but tend to look the other way when these crimes are being committed because it’s all just banter anyway, & besides ye cannae clipe on fellow fans”.
Apart from the Hibs idiot yesterday, these offences are invariably committed by away fans & usually, but not exclusively, by fans our fans & Newco fans. We all know that away fans show up at other grounds as a critical mass, safe in the knowledge that plod’s strategy when confronted with this is traditionally just to get them into the ground as quickly as possible in the belief that they are better contained in the ground than left outside. No searches or simply cursory or random searches all fail to find the guys that have smoke bombs, bottles or drugs in these circumstances – every week.
Allegedly, the solution is considered too harsh & unthinkable, which really means that those saying this are not at all convinced of the true gravity of of the situation OR grasp the danger but shy away from meaningful action for other reasons. Just as racist behaviour, if left unchecked or unchallenged will grow like a virus, so too the casual acceptance/justification of/for a level of violence & obscene chanting becomes a desensitizing agent on people. Songs sung that dehumanize people are part of that.
Alternatively, we are advised the solution of strict liability is unworkable & could easily be circumvented by fans of another club sneaking in to chuck a bottle while sitting amongst fans of that club.
Really? Is this meant to be a joke?
These grounds are licensed by local authorities acting as agents of central government. A government that spent millions commissioning the Taylor report, then implemented in full those findings. Stadia can easily be rendered useless for football if their licences are suspended or withdrawn indefinitely.
Clubs are responsible for the safety of everyione inside their grounds – legally & specifically under this legislation. This is an absolute responsibility for which club’s who fail in it & offered the defence that it wasn’t their problem would be treated with scorn. There is a growing sense that clubs have realized that their licences will NEVER be suspended, because the politically correct Police Supt & the careerist Council manager on the Safety Team will do everything to prevent using that nuclear option. When you have a sanction that those to whom it will apply know you will not use, then it is no sanction at all.
In the past, Clubs complained at having to bear the immense cost of the policing at their matches: police they believed who only judged required resources for football matches on the basis of how many of their staff could get easy overtime money through it. So, clubs asked for and were given full responsibility for security & safety inside their grounds. The maxim of “be careful what you wish for” was never more apposite. Now it’s all too much for them & they give an ineffectual shrug when faced with difficult decisions about safeguarding people inside their places of business.
Uefa have no problems enforcing strict liability as Celtic know to their cost. The effect of this is that there is much less idiocy at Uefa competition games than at SPFL games, even from serial idiots. Further, Uefa will impose penalties not just on clubs hosting matches but also on visiting clubs where there is clear evidence that their fans have not behaved properly or been adequately supervised. Perhaps, Celtic don’t like it & perhaps most competing clubs don’t – but they get on with it because they want to be in the competition & earn the cash.
All of the mealy mouthing from football folk in Scotland is a testament to some of what is wrong with the game. Stakeholders in the game are presenting actions & conclusions about a solution to a problem in their game. Action & solutions that actually have the benefit of absolving them of any real responsibility but somehow still manage to leave them with all the control of the game. Mmmm let me think about that.
What are the councils who approve & review clubs’ Safety Certificates at regular Safety Team meetings doing about this?
What sensible solutions are the Police coming up with at these meetings?
(Mind you after the debacle of the police advised fan acces & egress changes at the first O** F*** game at Celtic Park last season, maybe they should offer silence as their best solution.)
What real power to Stadium Managers/Clubs’ Heads of Security wield in these forums?
Are they beholding primarily to the profit and not safety of patrons?
Do CEOs & owners prevail upon Stadium Safety officers so that the least costly options are always preferred solutions?
Are these Safety Team meetings anything other than a cosy get together for them all once a month?
Then, we’re told it is a societal problem & football is not to blame.
Well excuse me for being obtuse, but within clubs’ stadia, entry to which they control strictly on condition of payment of an entry fee & a promise of appropriate behaviour by the paying patron, it is their problem & theirs alone. This level of criminality at large attendance outdoor events is unique to football grounds in Scotland. In addition, these same companies who complain that it’s a societal problem & who take your money are legally obliged & compelled to safeguard the wellbeing of all inside the stadium – staff, police, players, coaches, paying guests etc. Ostensibly, their licence to stage events & take your money depends on their ability to do so. The clubs get the money & the clubs have the licence – not society.
Imagine if a nightclub or pub (think Bairds Bar) continued to be the centre of violence (allegedly) every night or too frequently when it was open for business. How sympathetic would the Magistrate & Police be when the licensee in his defence stated that he was actually not to blame at all – but rather it was really all the fault of society? When they stopped laughing they’d take his licence away in a flash & recommend that he lie down in a dark room. The concept is identical, but somehow we allow ourselves to be persuaded that it isn’t.
Clubs are responsible – end of story. If away fans are the problem, then have no away fans at all. For a while at least. Now neither we nor Newco fans would like that. Neither would the owners of the other clubs who regard a visit from these two clubs as their best business days of the season. Once again, those who know what the answer is reveal themselves to be compromised when a real decision has to be made. Oh and if there were no Hearts fans allowed into Celtic Park & one sneaked in & chucked a bottle, how long do you think his true colours would remain a secret & how long before he was being identified by outraged Celtic fans around him?
Add to that the fact that we already have “strict liability” for away fans in operation in football in Scotland. You don’t believe me? Think about it – Three times within the last 2 weeks we read, see or hear of seats/toilets being damaged by fans of the two Glasgow clubs with lots of tutting by the usual people. We will then be told that the bill for repairing or replacing those seats or toilets will be met by the away fans’ clubs. The significance of this exisiting & being repeatedly mentioned is lost on most people. This is nothing more than a protocol of “strict liability” that the footballing authorities & clubs have signed up to because it suits them all. It’s the Morcambe & Wise or Monty Python version of strict liability though: instead of identifying the criminals involved, or instead of banning the away fans from those clubs who cause this damage every time they are at that ground, the clubs hush it all up & say nothing. It only becomes topical when Steve Clarke tells everyone that the “sectarianism is a thing of the past” emperor in Scotland is actually naked. It’s a nod and a wink between the clubs & authorities, including the Police to square it all up internally.
The reality is that Away Day fans are being given a very clear message. In effect the message is “You are allowed to smash up seats at away grounds & we won’t do anything to stop you.” When you tell people who destroy seats that they will get away with it, it’s fairly logical for them to assume that the other things they do will treated identically. This for them, throwing the seats must be permissable too, otherwise why would stewards & police allow the damage in the first place. Ask the clubs why they think that & what exactly is the clubs’ logic behind it. You’ll be met a shuffling of feet & a mumbling of unconvincing platitudes.
So let’s hear no more of “Strict Liability” won’t work. It certainly won’t work if there is no will for it to work. It works with the scourge of damaged seats that you & I and our clubs ultimately pay for, another message that those who damage the seats recieve loud & clear. “You cost the rest of the fans money but we won’t do anything to stop you.”
Gormless legislation criminalized thousands of people, but that was more preferable to those in power than actually discussing an effective solution to a real problem.
The solution is very simple but there is no will to implement it for spurious reasons of liberty, entitlement & the good of the game.
Until we have all reached the end of our tolerance for this criminality it will continue to blight our game as will the roundabout of blame & responsibility amongst those who should be taking the lead in ensuring that the only talking point inside football grounds is football itself.
HH