Former chairman of Oldco Rangers, now director of Newco, Alastair Johnston, took aim in the media at Celtic supporters yesterday, saying “I always wondered about the mentality of certain Celtic supporters, not by any means most of them, who basically said our club died in February, 2012.”
Why do they do this to themselves? If it is an attempt to convince people that liquidation did not happen, it will fail. All that will be achieved is the re-telling of the facts. Rangers entered administration on 14 February 2012. It failed to come out of administration and a liquidator was appointed to dispose of the remaining assets.
Secvo Scotland Ltd bought a “bundle of assets”, including the stadium. The administrators, Duff and Phelps, changed Rangers name to RFC 2012 Ltd and gave permission to Sevco Scotland to use the word “Rangers” in their name. Without this permission, Newco would have gone through a similar naming process as Clydebank – Airdrie United – Airdrieonians, who were only permitted to use the word “Airdrieonians” 11 years after the liquidation of oldco Airdrieonians.
If I’m honest, if we were in those circumstances, I would tell myself every day that the Celtic I grew up with was the same as Newco Celtic. I would have no incentive to do otherwise, so Johnston and anyone else who cares, can think what they want about Newco.
He is welcome to his thoughts, if it helps him through the trauma of what he did as chairman of Oldco during the EBT years, and the club’s failure to prepare over many years for HMRC’s legal challenge. Johnston’s board made no provision to retain enough money to trade through HMRC’s challenge, despite that legal challenge being underway years before it got to the crunch.
What he tells himself does not change the facts. Oldco is in liquidation. All player contracts ceased. Assets were sold off, a deal to use the name had to be agreed. Sevco Scotland became an associate member of the SFA while Oldco was still a member. Oldco voted on whether to admit Sevco Scotland to the SPL. Sevco changes its name and were granted entry to the SFL Third Division.
Johnston played a role in the demise of Rangers. He was chairman and had a responsibility to direct the club away from dangers. He failed and now presents an alternative reality, which is easier on the mind.
He also said, “it will be 120 years or so before you can tie with us.” For each of those 120 years, Celtic fans and others will say, “But Rangers died in 2012”. Just as Rangers fans are content to believe their club continues, belligerent denial is not going to change how others regard liquidation. It’s over, Mr Johnston, you let your club die.
There was other guff about “thriving” not “surviving”. They think they are going to win the league and that their circa £11m annual deficit is an indication of thriving. Again, I disagree.
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SFTB 5.59pm
Option 1
Celtic to do what champions do, none of our challengers in the recent past have maintained their form throughout the full term of a football season… it’s a long old season with still more or less half of it to go
SFTB: it’s 1 for me.
Trigger goes for option six😱
:))))))))))))))))
What’s the options,,, Doh!
D. :)
I have no idea what option 1 or 2 is but I have the gist of the discussion.
I believe Celtic will win the League, I’m not overly bothered by how many points we need from the head to heads, we will do what we need to do and we will win the League. So put me down for whatever option that represents.
SETTING FREE THE BEARS FOR RES. 12 & OSCAR KNOXon 3RD JANUARY 2020 5:59 PM
MCNUT (from 2 earlier posts
Its easier than that 😂
SETTING FREE THE BEARS FOR RES. 12 & OSCAR KNOX on 3RD JANUARY 2020 5:59 PM
I could write- “It seems to me that you have been pushing a despondent line, since you came on CQN recently, that the league was basically lost on the 29th and only winning all games, including future games against them, will change that certainty.”
You could write anything.
Seems to me that making mischief and scoring points is what you are mainly about.
I am being realistic, not being despondent.
There is of course only ONE certainty – winning all our games will win us the title.
I don’t believe ‘Rangers’ are a winning machine. I don’t believe that we cannot win the title.
I do think that in my book, ‘Rangers’ are favourites due to their pattern of dominance against us and their pre-split fixtures.
Why is my date of joining the site a matter to be brought up?
Does longevity make one more right?
Your mini-poll is misreprentation of what I posted and the context in which it was posted – there seems to be a bee in your bonnet.
Naka and the ‘egg’
https://twitter.com/yurixlax/status/1212747981620801537?s=21
It is not what TRFC think of themselves that is important, it is what it symbolises in sporting integrity terms to those who are fair minded.
If Scottish football sees them as the same club (although UEFA do not for their licensing purposes and so to do the SFA since it is UEFA Licensing rules they are bound by) and whenever they win a title, it becomes title 55 (or whatever), it is that not since 2000 or even earlier, but lets take the year when ebt usage started, Rangers FC have ever won anything abiding by the same rules as their competitors! They have also used unpaid debt to provide a quality of squad that was good enough to win titles in that period after Celtic decided paying debt then avoiding it was the right thing to do.
There is an SFA Rule (that is the basis of the stalled JPDT charges on the 2011 UEFA licence) that in the 2017 version states :
5. Obligations and Duties of Members
5.1 All members shall:-
(a) observe the principles of loyalty, integrity and sportsmanship in accordance with the rules of
fair play
(b) be subject to and shall comply with:-
(i) these Articles;
(ii) the Judicial Panel Protocol;
(iii) the Challenge Cup Competition Rules;
(iv) the Registration Procedures;
(v) International Match Calendar;
(vi) Club Licensing Procedures; and
(vii) any statutes, regulations, directives, codes, decisions promulgated by the Board, the
Professional Game Board, the Non-Professional Game Board, the Judicial Panel, a
Committee or sub-committee, FIFA, UEFA or the Court of Arbitration for Sport;
An equivalent Article in 2011 said
Article 5.1 Obligations and Duties of Members
“5.1 All members shall observe the principles of loyalty, integrity and sportsmanship in accordance with the rules of fair play”
This is such a natural requirement to make sport a sport and set integrity expectations that it would be surprising if previous SFA rules did not make a similar provision, but even if the requirement to act with integrity was only introduced in 2011 the unpaid debt charge still applies.
Okay? Now read this article by Brian Ponsonby of the BBC from 2012 which sets out Rangers FC’s financial history.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-14880473
Note the reference to the transfer of £50m RFC debt in 2004 to MIH after a share issue failed the necessary buy in. Now how much of MIH’s debt including that £50M was written off by Lloyds whilst also pursuing the £18M debt still on the books of RFC in 2012?
So whether the tax payer funded that write off or the bank bore the brunt it was £50m of unpaid debt.
That takes us to the ebt usage where the sum owed to HMRC and so the taxpayer even allowing for recent reduction was at least £50m and that does not include the £14M in PAYE and VAT not paid by CW or the £2.8m neither he nor his predecessor paid. Lets round that to £115m of other peoples money ostensibly stolen to provide titles and cups from 2000.
Now here is another funny thing, in 2011 there was a rush largely driven from CQN to strip titles on the basis of a breach of player registration rules. I remember myself and TBB saying that was premature as the real breach was winning titles by unlawful means (still to be decided by Tax Tribunals) which turned out to be a breach Article 5, for how can anyone now say integrity and sportsmanship wasn’t disregarded?
The LNS Commission itself was a sham, enabled by non disclosure of the unlawful nature of the DOS ebts and the basis on which the liability for the £2.8m owed was conceded – a dishonest reply to HMRC enquiries , in particular one in 2005. This non disclosure enabled LNS to say whilst there was no question of dishonesty individual or corporate and in doing so swerve Article 5 that would have officially recognised that all of those titles using ebts were not honestly won.
That non disclosure was notified to the SPL Board in 2014, which included Eric Riley of Celtic, but they eventually passed that buck to the SFA ,who in 2017 then said they did not want to revisit LNS.
When Johnston says he does not understand the mentality of Celtic supporters not recognising RFC as the same club, you have to wonder at the mentality of someone (and a club) who want to hold on to those titles that were never honorably or honestly won under the sporting principles codified in Article 5 of SFA rules.
There is the real problem.
Its as if the Celtic trophy room had been burgled by RFC , Celtic were notified as such in 2014 but said ach lets just ask for a review via the SPFL without stating the significance of the non disclosure, and hope it all goes away. It will not, it will hang around like the dead fish in Gordon Dury’s car boot and stink the game until it is removed.
Until the injustice of the decade 2000 to 2011 is addressed, along with the attempts to pervert its course by selective use of the rules, possibly as a result of the 5 Way Agreement of 2012 that is protecting the SFA and RFC from investigation, the rancor of allowing RFC to keep their ill gotten gains, possibly legitimised under the 5 Way Agreement, will not go away.
If Johnson wants TRFC to be recognised as same club as RFC and keep its history, then he and his club will have to admit to dishonesty on a massive scale was part of it and surrender the dishonestly won titles , but perhaps that is not in his or their mentality.
I see that some sort of vote going on. Are you all missing me that much?
McNut. We beat them at the Bigot Dome they beat us at Celtic Park, we beat them in the League Cup Final. I would hardly define that as a pattern of dominance against us.
I would also hazard an opinion that can neither be proved or disproved but I believe had we scored that penalty we would probably have won the game but we definitely would not have lost it.
The best concession, I will give you is there is not too much between the teams.
However, I believe there is a lot more potential for improvement in us than in them.
No way would I be complacent about their challenge, we do have a serious battle on our hands but I believe we have the better players, I expect us to do a lot better than them in the January window and I believe the Bookies have factored all that into the equation when they still made us favourites to win the Title.
https://youtu.be/913jZFL1bdE
Shalom my friends – GB don’t descend to their scumpopulist level. You are allowed into CP by the Wilfrid legacy !
Never mind all that, are the ‘bored’ ethically vegan?
We must be told.
Monthevegcsc
Cue for some quorny jokes….
Oldco’s Creditors will be eagerly chasing the postman on Monday morning, if they are still the same Klub…
Theres ‘patterns of dominance’ and then there’s
8 x Scottish Premiership trophies
🏆🏆🏆🏆🏆🏆🏆🏆
5 x Scottish Cups
🏆🏆🏆🏆🏆
5 x Scottish League Cups
🏆🏆🏆🏆🏆
3 x Domestic Trebles
🏆 🏆 🏆
Auldheid 7.36
Informative post as usual
Note the reference to the transfer of £50m RFC debt in 2004 to MIH after a share issue failed the necessary buy in. Now how much of MIH’s debt including that £50M was written off by Lloyds whilst also pursuing the £18M debt still on the books of RFC in 2012?
That share issue was the cause of wide consternation among the underwriting community.They knew it was poor fare as fans of theirs had no more to give minty.
From memory it seemed to put the city on alert to mintys debt financing.
Keep on at it Auldheid
:-)
GFTB on 3RD JANUARY 2020 6:48 PM
I think you’re right. Aberdeen went on a good run a couple of seasons back. Last season, at this stage, the press tipped Sevco to overhaul us. It didn’t happen.
The slightly perplexing thing is: we beat them fairly comprehensively at Ibrox in September. Why didn’t we use the same tactics in the last two games?
Aor
Give me time😱
Crapjoker.csc
Oh aor=aow
I have always like many others held my opinions of the board to myself thinking it was the best thing for the team .However I am becoming very very disturbed and annoyed by our boards lack of guts in coming out and backing our manager,our players and most of all our fans.What is it that they are scared of coming out that maybe implicates them?A
Bhoys3
5 way agreement?
There’s no mushroom for quorny jokes
Fritzsong 8.27pm
Am not dismissing “Stevies Sevs” but this “new challenge” is also gathering pace whereas am pretty sure it’s similar to last season, again not taking anything for granted but pretty sure this Celtic team are actually better than the Celtic team this time last year … am sure we will find out in the coming months … I think our poor performance while winning the first trophy of the season and even though not being as bad as some make out we lost our first home league game of the season … in my opinion I think we are having a cracking season so far (terrific Europa run topping our section for first time ever) and look forward to what lies ahead … and quite important again in my opinion Cluj (one dead rubber) are the only team that’s beat us in European competition… this season (so far) … considering our recent Euro results surely a success … top of the league, league cup in the bag, Copenhagen in February to look forward too…. again far more good times than bad so far this season for me :-)
Things we said today Beatles
https://youtu.be/NItAlTsPuQg
HH
5 way agreement – this from Bears Den 2018
Apologies for this and any cultural refs but as Sun Tsu says”know what your enemy is thinking”….
A post from a taig blogger appeared on my newsfeed earlier about the infamous agreement and for amusement I decided to have a look .
I skim read the blog as it was badly written and full of nonsense .Had only 2points to agree on .that it was a corrupt document and that is holding the game in this country back .
It is now time for this agreement to be published for all to see .
Our support feel we were harshly treated in the agreement and the rest of the country genuinely think that we were sneaked into the league set up on the back of it .Despite the fact numerous clubs over the world have carried on intact after similar and same financial issues .No other club has been dealt the level of punishment that ours has Rules were altered to remove us from the league and demote us 2 levels below a club which in my opinion was guilty of the worst possible offence .match fixing and bribery for years ,Juventus
Bognorbhoy
.
As lettuce get on wi the fit a chat lol
HH
Oldclub newclub
5 way agreement is the 2 rangers’ agreement overseen by the then 2 league bodies and oor campells office at Hampton.
HH
Number 1 for me,we might have to beat them,but it’s no a necessity as things stand
4. The R*ngers Football club PLC (in administration)
For accuracy at time of agreement.
George Harrison my sweet lord
https://youtu.be/8qJTJNfzvr8
HH
Number 1 for me, I’d prefer that we beat them as well :-)
Maxwell’s silver hammer Beatles
https://youtu.be/mJag19WoAe0
HH
Paul Brady
Homes of Donegal
https://youtu.be/kk8foQOQVk0
HH
So far it’s 6 votes for
option 1- we can win the league even if we only share the points, in the remaining 2 games against them
& 6 votes for
option 2- we will need to win both or get 4 points out of 6 in hte remaining 2 games against them
& 0 votes for
option 3 – we are all doomed cos they’re a winning machine; the option MCNUT feels the majority of our support have fallen for.
As I said, hardly definitive but, at least I put it to the test of other people’s expressed opinions, rather than just guess what they are, were or will be.
SETTING FREE THE BEARS FOR RES. 12 & OSCAR KNOX on 3RD JANUARY 2020 11:00 PM
Unnecessarily personal.
Triumphalist even.
Tells a slightly different story from the one we’ve all been fed. As I said on Monday the stats don’t lie.
http://celticbynumberscom.ipage.com/shape-and-recoveries-key-to-celtic-loss/