Today we have a guest writer, Archie Macpherson, Scotland’s most celebrated broadcaster. Archie started broadcasting for the BBC in the 1960s and was the authoritative voice of football commentaries, and comment, for decades thereafter. He was co-commentator for our first European Cup win and remains a regular newspaper columnist and TV contributor.
I had a brief conversation with Archie last month when he categorically stated that Jock Stein was best manager Scotland has ever produced was. Pleased, though I was, to hear this, in the light of accolades earned by Sir Alex Ferguson, I asked him if he could substantiate his claim.
These questions are enormously subjective but few have the breadth of perspective, not to mention the analytical capacity, to tackle this one properly. This is the article he offered to write for us on the subject:
Jock and Fergie, by Archie Macpherson
If there had been no Jock Stein there would have been no Sir Alex Ferguson. It may sound a contentious statement to make but even though it is tempting to play around with history according to your own beliefs and perceptions I would stand by that as a sound interpretation of the way the respective merits of these men can be set against each other.
It helps in this matter if you can lay aside the achievements of those men from the record books and instead consider their personalities and the context in which they plied their trade.
When Jock came to Celtic as manager in 9th March 1965, he fully understood from his past experience there as a player and coach that he would find a club desperate to achieve a commanding status in Scottish football. The frustration they felt only reflected that which their massive support similarly endured around that period. They were massive underachievers.
He also knew from his own background that his task would not simply be about selecting a team, then motivating them, but about radically overhauling the perception the public in general had about the club and which stemmed mainly from the constructs of the media.
It may be difficult for a current generation to fully comprehend this but Celtic then were simply perceived as bit players in a drama where the lead actor came from Govan and always took the curtain-calls. Stein changed all that. He took on the press-pack like he had been sent in from the city’s sanitation department to fumigate.
If you didn’t turn up on the dot for his press conferences then the door was slammed on your face no matter the size of your ego. His television interviews, unlike the passive posture of that likeable man his predecessor Jimmy McGrory, were often truculent and challenging. All of this concentrated the mind of those who wrote and spoke about Celtic. They would think twice about saying anything that might offend the big man. He was strengthening Celtic’s image and, as a by-product of that, securing the self-esteem within the playing staff which previously had been sadly lacking.
And where was Sir Alec at this time? He was watching, observing. I saw him sitting in the lounge of Malpensa Airport Milan in 1970, in the aftermath of the European Cup Final there, amidst thousands of Celtic supporters, which given his Rangers connections only indicated his deep interest in what Jock was doing.
Fergie to his credit was a learner. When he went to Old Trafford it was not to a club about which there was lack of public respect. It was initial lack of respect for himself which made him take up arms against his detractors. To go to a Fergie press-conference was to see a recreation of Jock at the height of his powers. And from being beside Jock in the dressing-room, and on the bench at Scotland games, he absorbed Jock’s handling of men which could range from wrath to wit. The so-called ‘hairdryer’ treatment Fergie handed out only simulated what Jock could do to make the walls of a dressing-room bulge when it got up his hump.
Where they differed enormously as men was that Jock did not harbour grudges in quite the same way as Fergie. Jock did have his difficulties with the BBC initially but never refused to deal with them. Fergie barred them for over a decade, then got an award from the same people. So I am suggesting that although you cannot compare the achievements made in entirely different footballing environments, Fergie served his apprenticeship in the Stein era by consequently adopting much of the big man’s methodology. Jock was the ice-breaker. Fergie was the follow up.
In that sense, as the one was indispensable to the success of the other, I rate Jock as the master of the two.
My thanks to Archie for his contribution.
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Am I alone in struggling to find it in me to really support ulster tonight at the rugby.
I know it is a disgrace they way the English and French have treated the Celtic nations but it is difficult to fully engage with their efforts.
Interesting result from a friendly earlier where Heerenveen came from 2:1 down to beat Lierse 3:2.
Finbogasson scored the two late goals to win but both Lierse goals were scored by Tony Watt.
£5m to £6m for Alfie or just nurture Tony towards a triumphant return in the summer and save the money. Is this what we call a no-brainer?
Doc
There’s 8 questions, I’ll give a Half time score.
Doc
I think its source is the SPFL and SFA looking at changing the rules to make it clearer what happens if a club enters administration and if it fails to exit it with a CVA.
This is of itself laudable as it makea it harder to conjure up 5 way agreements out of thin air in the absence of clarity.
However whilst wishing the protect or preserve a clubs continuity for football reasons the football authorities have to take care they do not scare off lenders.
Otherwise liquidation is seen as a fairly attractive escape route and no detterent to a club who do not uphold or value the concept of sporting integrity.
The rule should be simple. Use liquidation to shed debt and yer deid.
However if a club undertakes to allocate an agreed % of income relative to its earning capacity to repay ALL creditors, then and only then has it a morally recognised claim to be seen as continous in football terms.
That plus removal by at least one tier of whatever division of a league a club occupies, the points deduction approach can be circumvented in terms of dropping a tier, so remove it as a deterrent and make demotion a certainty and history retention dependent on paying yer bills.
That should satisy both sporting and lender needs.
Latch ford
Forster
Baines
Andrews
Gould
Warner
Muggleton
Easy when you are halfway down the second bottle.
We’ll done Paul & thanks Archie, god bless yer big broon camel coat!
I’d love to have a pint with AMcP and chat about any sport, jeez the man is still head an shoulders above the dross sports reporters we have.
I don’t blame Shug Keevins, well not much, his agenda is his job will depend on paper sales, he ain’t a millionaire, HE needs a Sevco in SPFL to sell more paper pap.
He and others don’t get my blood boiling these days as they have no influence anymore, they are moonhowlers!
Ian Redford, rest in peace ‘brother’.
If you know a bloke, blokess’,who have Black Dog Days, or seem really low at times, instead of saying, “hi,awright?”, try, “hi, so tell my my man, how are you feeling today?”, you might get the opportunity to help one of our fellow human beings, mibyz.
Doc
21:26 on
If wine time and it does things to your memory. BWC can we a drinkers list and a sober list of winners at the end?
BCW, Ta.
Auldheid, thanks, skim read that, next question coming, will scroll back at end.
setting free the bears supports res. 12 & oscar knox
21:26 on 10 January, 2014
Interesting result from a friendly earlier where Heerenveen came from 2:1 down to beat Lierse 3:2.
Finbogasson scored the two late goals to win but both Lierse goals were scored by Tony Watt.
£5m to £6m for Alfie or just nurture Tony towards a triumphant return in the summer and save the money. Is this what we call a no-brainer?
How about a swap deal for the boy Watt and boeriggter?
The Willo Flood Windae scores 1-0!
Some goal from Willo
cindirrat thomo
21:27 on 10 January, 2014
Are you Erchie?
What a goal from wee Willo. Not his fault we should have bought Fletcher.
HH jamesgang
Zingerrrrrrrrrrrrrr from Flood!!
Paul67,
I second the request for Hugh McIlvanney, THE Scottish journalist bar none. The articles he wrote about us, and especially about Jock Stein, when we were great were simply different class.
Raspberry, naw!
‘Founding member’ of WOOFT!CSC.
Can I have 9.28
I can handle that some players are injury prone – though I’d be sure not to sign them! – but I can’t handle someone pulling on the Hoops and not putting in a shift.
HH jamesgang
anymore answers for q2 : viewfaethe windae/robert88/pf
Barry Robson won the SPL for us!! Legend in my eyes!!!
And I double 2nd Hugh Mcilvanney.
Heard him on 5 Live last year on anniversary of Mr Stein’s passing.
Eloquence personified.
HH jamesgang
ANSWER Q 2
Fraser Forster, Tony Warner, Roy Baines, Peter Latchford, Ian Andrews, Carl Muggleton and Jonathan Gould.
jamesgang
21:33 on 10 January, 2014
Can I have 9.28
I can handle that some players are injury prone – though I’d be sure not to sign them! – but I can’t handle someone pulling on the Hoops and not putting in a shift.
HH jamesgang
That’s my point
Q 3 (2 points each correct answer)
Where did we sign them from: Alan Rough, Stan Varga, Anton Rogan, Tommy Boyd
And Big Bad Bobo Balde.
Hibs, Sunderland, Distillery, Chelsea
ceaser67
21:34 on 10 January, 2014
Barry Robson won the SPL for us!! Legend in my eyes!!!
Ceaser67 are you his maw?
Would be great to see something from Hugh McIlvanney. You can buy his collected works for buttons via ebay or amazon, McIlvanney on Horseracing is a compendium of fantastic writing (the football one’s not bad either).
cadizzy
14:55 on
10 January, 2014
Wikipedia (never wrong) gives the 66/67 squad as the Lions plus John Fallon, Joe McBride, John Hughes, Willie O’Neill, Charlie Gallagher and Jim Brogan.
17 players for a season! That doesn’t allow you to fill your bench now unless it’s a Scottish Cup game.
OK. This is wikpedia I’m talking about so there may well have been dozens more in the squad.
Cadizzy, try this site for more details of 66/67 season
-http://www.fitbastats.com/celtic/player_records_season.php
Some Vid-y-o footage of Tony Watt’s goals today courtesy of
Video Celts
Hibs, Sunderland distillery Chelsea Toulouse
Q 3 (2 points each correct answer)
Where did we sign them from: Alan Rough, Stan Varga, Anton Rogan, Tommy Boyd
And Big Bad Bobo Balde.
Rough ….. Orlando
Varga…Sunderland
Rogan Distillery
Boyd …Chelsea
Bobo…Toulouse
didn’t see Balde, he was Toulouse
Hibs
Sunderland
no idea
Chelsea
Toulouse
Hull agree fee to sign Jellyfish from Everton
Hibs, Sunderland, Distillery, Chelsea, Vitoria Guimaraes
Keevins is a shock jock. Pure and simple.
No one in their right minds would think differently.
Except sun and daily record readers.
He does a great job at it from what I hear.
He knows which buttons to press. That is his strength.
viewfaethewindae
Did I miss your answer to q2 ?
Rough Orlando, Varga Sunderland, Anton can’t remember, Boyd Chelsea, Bobo Toulouse (and did we not get him for nothing)?