Today we have a guest writer, Archie Macpherson, Scotland’s most celebrated broadcaster. Archie started broadcasting for the BBC in the 1960s and was the authoritative voice of football commentaries, and comment, for decades thereafter. He was co-commentator for our first European Cup win and remains a regular newspaper columnist and TV contributor.
I had a brief conversation with Archie last month when he categorically stated that Jock Stein was best manager Scotland has ever produced was. Pleased, though I was, to hear this, in the light of accolades earned by Sir Alex Ferguson, I asked him if he could substantiate his claim.
These questions are enormously subjective but few have the breadth of perspective, not to mention the analytical capacity, to tackle this one properly. This is the article he offered to write for us on the subject:
Jock and Fergie, by Archie Macpherson
If there had been no Jock Stein there would have been no Sir Alex Ferguson. It may sound a contentious statement to make but even though it is tempting to play around with history according to your own beliefs and perceptions I would stand by that as a sound interpretation of the way the respective merits of these men can be set against each other.
It helps in this matter if you can lay aside the achievements of those men from the record books and instead consider their personalities and the context in which they plied their trade.
When Jock came to Celtic as manager in 9th March 1965, he fully understood from his past experience there as a player and coach that he would find a club desperate to achieve a commanding status in Scottish football. The frustration they felt only reflected that which their massive support similarly endured around that period. They were massive underachievers.
He also knew from his own background that his task would not simply be about selecting a team, then motivating them, but about radically overhauling the perception the public in general had about the club and which stemmed mainly from the constructs of the media.
It may be difficult for a current generation to fully comprehend this but Celtic then were simply perceived as bit players in a drama where the lead actor came from Govan and always took the curtain-calls. Stein changed all that. He took on the press-pack like he had been sent in from the city’s sanitation department to fumigate.
If you didn’t turn up on the dot for his press conferences then the door was slammed on your face no matter the size of your ego. His television interviews, unlike the passive posture of that likeable man his predecessor Jimmy McGrory, were often truculent and challenging. All of this concentrated the mind of those who wrote and spoke about Celtic. They would think twice about saying anything that might offend the big man. He was strengthening Celtic’s image and, as a by-product of that, securing the self-esteem within the playing staff which previously had been sadly lacking.
And where was Sir Alec at this time? He was watching, observing. I saw him sitting in the lounge of Malpensa Airport Milan in 1970, in the aftermath of the European Cup Final there, amidst thousands of Celtic supporters, which given his Rangers connections only indicated his deep interest in what Jock was doing.
Fergie to his credit was a learner. When he went to Old Trafford it was not to a club about which there was lack of public respect. It was initial lack of respect for himself which made him take up arms against his detractors. To go to a Fergie press-conference was to see a recreation of Jock at the height of his powers. And from being beside Jock in the dressing-room, and on the bench at Scotland games, he absorbed Jock’s handling of men which could range from wrath to wit. The so-called ‘hairdryer’ treatment Fergie handed out only simulated what Jock could do to make the walls of a dressing-room bulge when it got up his hump.
Where they differed enormously as men was that Jock did not harbour grudges in quite the same way as Fergie. Jock did have his difficulties with the BBC initially but never refused to deal with them. Fergie barred them for over a decade, then got an award from the same people. So I am suggesting that although you cannot compare the achievements made in entirely different footballing environments, Fergie served his apprenticeship in the Stein era by consequently adopting much of the big man’s methodology. Jock was the ice-breaker. Fergie was the follow up.
In that sense, as the one was indispensable to the success of the other, I rate Jock as the master of the two.
My thanks to Archie for his contribution.
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http://www.theguardian.com/football/when-saturday-comes-blog/2014/jan/10/moment-match-ball-comes-return-pitch-ibrox-rangers
Nice article…..no seriously……and some good stuff in the comments section.
TonyD.
I am an infrequent contributor to this site, but I felt compelled to post after reading some of your posts over the past couple of days.
Now this is not a personal attack (just my opinion), as I have no idea who you are, or indeed what your agenda is, but you always seem to try to “stir things up”, whether its intentional or not I don’t know. Some of your opinions and posts verge on the laughable, and when someone challenges your opinion you seem to revert to the old “you are trying the bully tactics” etc etc. and “if you don’t like my posts, scroll on by ” etc etc. Easier said than done, because for some reason I now find myself drawn to your posts to see what ridiculous nonsense you are uttering today.
Remember, nothing on here is personal, as like all other posts above this is merely my opinion (in this case on your posts). Many I am sure will have differing views on this.
As Bob LobLaw and Philbhoy have already mentioned above, I think you need to “chill out” and stop going on the defensive when somone challenges your comment.
Anyway, best wishes, we’re all tims here, and it’s a good time to be one!
I think it’s important to parallel Archie MacPherson covering Lisbon in the shadow of Kenneth Wolstenholme who was the BBC national commentator. It is his commentary which is the official version, his coverage that was refreshingly neutral, in comparison with the local ITV / STV’s Alex Cameron who was the only calm Scotsman in the stadium.
Archie MacPherson CSC
Archie was a Rangers supporter though, not a crime.
A Hun though?
No chance. He just picked the wrong team.
I once read he met Jock Stein, he was told in no uncertain terms, watch us, we will win, and we will win scoring a lot of goals, excuse me if I paraphrase.
So Archie did, and he reported, and fought the BBC that we were reported on, 1960’s BBC, that must have taken a bit of stamina.
Fair play to you Archie.
And so what if his affection for Rangers clouds his judgement, a bit, occasionally.
If I were in his shoes, I doubt I could be as balanced as he has been.
Couldn’t have told you who played in goal but remember that Ronnie Simpson was in the team that came on the park but was subbed almost straight away.
The main stand was being upgraded and there was no roof over the stand and no crowd in the stand area that day.
I have a feeling that we played Clyde on the first day of following season and put nine past them after we hoisted the league flag … it was a long time ago so could be talking nonsense.
HH GMB
BSR
Alex Cameron was a a hun? Well jings, crivvens etc etc
Next you’ll be telling me that Arthur Montford was a Morton supporter
Re the lions,the game i seem to remember they played to gether in was against Clyde,the league was won,I think all players had the number 6 on the shorts to celebrate titles.
Jock made a big thing bout it,might be wrong as I was trying to go thro ACGR’s team last night(a few of mine were missing) lol. ready to be corrected Celts but will check my 125 history on going home(ta Santa)
Td67
A not so anti board mate of mine, from brazen and youll have seen him, a Celtic anorak btw….tells me they played v D Kiev 67 and also v Mwell feb 68 ( Yogi started but Chalmers or Lennox replaced him). I make that twice Tony… ;-)
Bmcw
For a guy who is a total waste of time, why get involved? Awe right you being the end all and be all and protector of the blog, you who must be obeyed and listened to, your just another punter like the rest of us who have opinions, don’t become one of my stalkers, I would have thought you would have been above that. ;))
My fav from the 6-2 game was Archie’s commentary after the third goal.
“This is an annihilation!”
His comments on the demise of Rangers I think reflect that he hankers after the years when Scottish clubs strode Europe as equals. He probably can not see a Scottish game without a strong Rangers or at least two strong teams competing for the league. Because he does not see the demise of Rangers in the same light as ourselves does not mean that he bears our club any ill will.
BOBBY MURDOCH’S CURLED-UP WINKLEPICKERS:
Regards the Kiev games played on the 20th Sept and Oct 4th – the lions played the first game and the only player missing in the return game was Chalmers; replaced by Hughes. The Clyde game was almost seven months later.
bamboo
14:12 on
I remember well his performance on Scotland Tonight during the administration of deedco. He was hurting very much that night.
I always wished that police horse that bashed into Alex Cameron in front of the cameras had actually sat on him. Did I miss and “h”!
Monaghan1900
13:28 on
10 January, 2014
FF plot thickens:
“need pm re lennoxtown
Want help proof reading a letter…re gghb etc.
Anyone clued up on that front please pm.”
[What?…….Reading?…..You’ll struggle there, Sammy]
——
“When done I suggest keeping it off board
Continually showing the enemy our hand allows them to take evasive action”
———————————————————————————————–
Mon 1900
That’s an episode of ‘Blackadder goes fourth, am I right ? :O)
Celtic v Motherwell Feb 1968
John Hughes was substituted for Steve Chalmers and thus made up the original Lisbon Lions side.
tonyd
Hilarious!!
Absolutely hilarious!!!
The johnatron
You see the thing you missed out is the name calling I don’t like, you have a diff. Opinion from me fine, you name call me, well it’s not on, it no longer becomes a debate, this is the thing most people don’t see when I debate, I NEVER start the name calling, NEVER
Granny Macs Bhoy
14:31 on
10 January, 2014
4th September, 1971 – Celtic 9 Clyde 1
Marakesh
Prove it.
EmeraldBee\o/ proud to be an internet bampot
13:40 on
10 January, 2014
For pure selfish amusement I dip into the ‘discussion board’ re. the RIFC Shares. here are today’s fun reading.
“The problem here is these funds are needed to pay running costs and not for future investment. In effect,investors would be asked to release funds just so things like the managers £820k per annum,etc. could still be paid. I don’t see many institutional Investors buying into this scenario and I don’t think the fans could raise the sums required. A sale of Murray Park may raise a reasonable amount.This would give temporary respite whilst effective cost cutting measures are put into effect. It is hard,though,to see a long term future for the PLC while it’s tied to its cash burning subsidiary.”
“30p is is too high if the value of the shares are going to be diluted buy a further share issue designed to increase equity at the club. A buisness has a value and share price is essentually that value divided by the number of shares. If there are more shares then the share price will decline.”
“The new club v old club debate Is totally irrelevant to this forum. Those both perpetuating and defending the ‘new club’ argument on here are clearly simply football fans looking for a bit of one upmanship on both sides. From an investor perspective this is a new company. That is significant as it materially affects the commerciality of the business eg access to credit, supplier terms, even costs of IPO. Wallace has taken a big step in admitting a need for austerity. Problem is it will not be easy to get rid of some of the surplus to requirements high earners without pay-offs. This assumes they won’t be able to command the same level of wage at another club. Every time Mccoist claims that trimming the playing staff budget will jeopardise the route to the top league it justs detracts further from his credibility as a manager.”
Ya gotta agree with the last statement, don’t ya? Please please let Fat Salary stay!
****************************************************************
Emerald Bee
At the risk of interrupting the did they/didn’t they debate about the immortal Lions (point is, it doesn’t matter too much cos after that day in Lisbon 2 years before I was even born they did become immortal…)…
always find it instructive to read the thoughts of the other side in any battle….no matter how deranged they sometimes are.
I thought that this actually scored far higher than most in the ‘makes sense’ stakes though I’ll leave it to my Linguistic Guru ;-) Alisdair Maclean to highlight the several wee typos! I blame the schools!!!! (and if any of you knew which type of school I attended you would I hope appreciate the irony…)
KTF jamesgang
EcumenicalCSC!
Tony D breathes sigh of relief…..Bhoys in Brazen no too happy.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-25648019
voguepunter
14:36 on 10 January, 2014
Monaghan1900
13:28 on
10 January, 2014
FF plot thickens:
“need pm re lennoxtown
Want help proof reading a letter…re gghb etc.
I’m afraid there is a misprint in the extract above from FF. It should read
“Want help reading a letter….”
The 67 Lison Lions team did play again. They played a game aginst Cumbernauld Juniors to open their new ground. There is a picutre in the Noddy news archives of them alighting from the bus holding the big cup.
philbhoy – free the dam 5!
13:05 on 10 January, 2014
Sorry for the late reply ( bloody work )
Happy New Year to you as well , just got word today that my mum can go home from the hospital . She’s doing well mate , thanks for asking and thanks for the info about Nevin interview.
HH
tonyd
Am still laughin’ at that post!
Still hilarious!
voguepunter
14:36 on
10 January, 2014
My memory says Blackadder the Third but I’ll consult BlackadderWiki!!
Oh, and get your Predictions for the CQN Predictor in now.
FourGreenFields
Great news about your Mum!
You mind and pamper her now!
She will deserve it!
Take care.
TD67
You are on form today…but, stop taking it all so seriously, we all love you really:)
HH
cadizzy
Candid Cameron or was it Candid Camera when he got shunted by the Policeman’s horse?
*hope it’s on youtube CSC*
I noticed after Paul67 posted today’s article, that a few guys said they had read Archie’s book and that it was a great read, I wonder where they went, lol. As I said IF he is wrong then fine, but I think I will stick with him rather than the ones posting in here, no offence, just my choice,
To be honest I have no idea of the 11 players that took the field that day on Gay Meadow in Cumbernuald village.
neganon2
13:29 on 10 January, 2014
Correct about the standards applied……e.g. The Manchester Riot……the LL tried to blame anyone, and everyone, other than the bhun hoardes for nearly destroying the City Centre …. disgusting……
….the GB agreed to temper the politicos, then went against the agreement with Celtic……I am convinced they were infiltrated by radicle politicos……who, hopefully, are away to try to influence some other group somewhere else….
bearsden bob
14:25 on 10 January, 2014
Regarding the end of season (70/71) game against Clyde, billed as the Lions last appearance. This is one game I remember well as it was my last game as a Celtic ball boy. The score was 6-1 and it was Evan Williams who replaced Ronnie Simpson at the start of play.
another memory from the day is the players walking over planks to get to the pitch as the old enclosure was being pulled apart to be replaced with the new front stand.
And it was a good Celtic man John McColligan who scored the goal for Clyde. Stays in the Milton, regular in McConnell’s for many a year.
Monaghan1900
14:37 on
10 January, 2014
Cheers Monaghan, my old grandpa took me to the jungle for both games and I stood down the front like most of the weans…….. those were the days!!! He used to tell me he was sure that we would win the big cup again one day. He wasn’t right on that one but we had a right good go at it.
HH GMB
I was but a bhoy when we played Clyde that day. I stood in the Celtic end.
1) Faither came oot at the start then was replaced immediately by Evan Williams
2) Bertie sat on the ball….I think it was his last game before he went to Hibs…Big Jock bawled him out from the dugout for doing it.
I also think the first game of the following season was against Clyde again…(If not the first…one of the first….I stood on the same spot in the Celtic end and we won 9-1…got me thinking we had a better team now than the Lisbon Lions were……..idiot!
Td67..
Prove it….
Bournerecipe just did Tony.
Bourne
Cheers
Tony…Oasis time?
Hh
The rear end of the horse