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Legal term of the day: uttering

751

Since Corinthians FC gave up the good fight football has largely been a brutish game.  Even those supporters, who are unable to raise a limb with anything approaching athletic guile, often talk a brutish game.  Now, in Scotland, the accountancy geeks are having their day.

The mere mention of the word ‘taxation’ has ears pricking up while the entire corporate accountancy system is now as much of the daily lexicon of football fans as the Laws of the Game.  I reckon the law geeks will have their day soon.

I’d never heard of the crime ‘uttering’ until yesterday, now it’s all I hear from my Edinburgh sources.  Uttering can broadly be defined as using a document you know to be forged.  Don’t worry, it has nothing to do with Our Hero, just an observation for you.

On other matters, still no word from the SFA on the scope of their investigation into Rangers, or the position of their president relating to this matter.  When respected mainstream journalists are making unchallenged assertions about improper registration of players, the SFA cannot choose to ignore these events.  We know they are aware of the allegations, we know the allegations relate to the period when the SFA president was involved with Rangers.  We just don’t know if the SFA are doing anything about them.  A statement confirming that no one is immune from investigation would be a start.

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  1. The Battered Bunnet says:

     

    23 February, 2012 at 14:22

     

     

    TBB – This is potentially dreadful news! I had come to an arrangement with the ol’ Burns Howff for tickets for all Mark Daly gigs there over the next 3-4 years. Have I lost my money?

     

     

    P.S. What channel and what time?

  2. Malarkey says:

     

    23 February, 2012 at 14:19

     

     

     

    HMRC wouldn’t have access to the players’ contracts held by the FA/SFA.

     

     

    Nor would looking at the published accounts give them enough information to prove that players were being paid contractual payments through EBTs.

  3. Auld Neil Lennon heid on

    EKBhoy says:

     

     

    23 February, 2012 at 13:00

     

     

     

    A consequence of this will be a re-write of the regulations, as I suspect that they basically involve at present a measure of ‘trust’ between the parties.

     

    =====================

     

    This is spot on and was the basis for The In Whom Do We Trust article on CU.

     

     

    Whilst the damage Rangers have done to Scottish football is incalcuable in the short term, in the long term the repair work could turn our game around.

  4. Awe_Naw_No_Annoni_Oan_Anaw_Noo on

    Wonkyradar

     

     

    I have been working on the film script on the huns demise. Hollywood moguls have just laughed off my utterings final chapter and strongly suggested that a Giant Squid makes its way up the clyde and consumes Ibrox and its inhabitants. It has to be more believeable I have been told and this way we can include the grotesque Jim Traynor as well …oh well

     

     

    HH

  5. Auld Neil Lennon heid on

    notthebus says:

     

     

    23 February, 2012 at 14:22

     

     

    On the matter of removing titles ….

     

     

    I was listeningto Darryl King on Clyde last night trying to say why titles should not be taken away. He steered the argument towards what Rangers did was misuse the tax rules which was not criminal in its intent and different from an athlete for example taking drugs to win. In the latter case DK was for taking away the medals/titles.

     

     

    In his explanation he was either stupid or deliberately sneaky in trying to justify Rangers keeping theirs. He cannot be that stupid as not to make the connection between taking drugs to win and the term financial doping, so I think he knows fine well the principles at play and was being sneaky.

     

     

    But just in case he was ignorant of the principle it is that by using EBTs Rangers acquired the services of players whom they would not otherwise been able to afford. This gave them a competitive advantage that translated in 2003 and 2005 into the narrowest title victories by a goal and a point respectively. The EBT contributions in both years were moving to their highest point.

     

     

    What Rangers did was use money that was not theirs and which they seem hell bent on avoiding paying back, to gain competitive advantage. The principle behind a 10 point deduction for entering administration is that the club concerned, by spending what it was not its to spend because it could not afford that level of spend, had the services of players that won points that might not otherwise have been won, such services giving them competitive advantage.

     

     

    So applying the competitive advantage gained principle behnd the 10 points deduction Rangers should be deducted 10 points for both seasons and so be stripped of the 2003 and 2005 titles (if HMRC get the verdict of course).

     

     

    In 2007 Rangers moved from an EBT policy to a debt one and as all clubs use debt it is harder to argue those titles should be removed, especially as FFP was only a dot on the footbal horizon at that time.

     

     

    However there is an argument that rather than use debt to pay players, Rangers should have used their income to meet the tax bill, although in 2007 that too would be a dot, if that ,on the horizon.

     

     

    Having said that, such is the damage they have caused our game by not only using other peoples money but their ongoing attempts not to repay it and meet their corporate responsibilities, there is a case for simply removing those titles since 2009 as a punishment but not reassigning them.

     

     

    Both actions 10 points deduction for 2003 and 2005 and punishment for damage to our game would not be a reason to allow or justify an SPL parachute, simply natural justice and the consequences thereof asserting itself.

     

     

    Nor would a Div Three start place for a Newco scenario be a reason to leave the titles, especially 2003 and 2005, in place.

     

     

    In a Newco situation there are different principles at play affecting two different clubs – Oldco and Newco and the issues should be kept separate and dealt with as such, not one traded against the other as a bargaiining chip. Rangers are in no position to bargain.

  6. jock steins celtic on

    If the contracts Rangers submitted to the SFA showed their players earning ‘buttons’ would the SFA have been suspicious ? Maybe. Would they have acted upon those suspicions ? Maybe. Were doctored documents submitted to the SFA ? Maybe.

  7. Awe_Naw_No_Annoni_Oan_Anaw_Noo says:

     

    23 February, 2012 at 14:34

     

     

    I hope you factored in a cameo appearance for G.O.D.ZILLA

     

     

    pigalle

  8. notthebus says:

     

    23 February, 2012 at 14:22

     

    From FF

     

    On a side note and something that hit home today – our manager and legend delivered a no surrender speech to our squad yesterday that had him in tears as he tried to keep us somehow together

     

     

    —————–

     

    I am also crying – tears from laughing. I just can’t stop laughing at them. In desperation and fear of causing myself a serious injury I have had to squeeze myself into the wife’s burlesque corset in an effort to prevent my sides splitting :-)

  9. The problem for the SFA/SPL/Media/Police is that what they are having to investigate can be likened to money going missing from the family home. They know a wrong has occurred, they know a family member has committed the evil deed, but they are hoping upon hope that somehow someone “will put the money back and we shall say no more about it”.

     

     

    I think it’s time to call in the expert.

     

     

    Jeremy Kyle.

     

     

    A 2hr long special entitled “it wisnae me guv – honest” Get Minty, AJ, Whytey, into the studio. Wheel out the ould lie detector machine.

  10. Random thought:

     

     

    What if Rangers go into liquidation, but instead of a NewCo trying to re-enter the Scottish leagues, Banstead Athletic change their name to “Rangers Football Club”, and secure the use of Ibrox as their new stadium?

     

     

    Within a few years “Rangers” could be playing in the EPL, or at least The Championship.

     

     

    At which point they could be sold for a princely sum, assuming the English football bubble doesn’t burst before then.

     

     

    Crazy idea? (thumbsup)

  11. thebhoywithmcgraininhisside on

    Hi folks.

     

     

    Great night last night. That had to be the biggest game of pass the parcel ever.

     

     

    As to the ebt situation. Rangers’ position is that the ebt payments to players were loans from a 3rd party. They were non-contractual, did not relate in anyway to footballing performance, and so should not have attracted PAYE or NIC payments. They maintain that the scheme was constituted in the same manner as many similar schemes being operated by many different companies across many sectors of industry.

     

     

    A scheme operated under these conditions would not have to be declared to the SFA because the payments would not relate in anyway to football. Similarly payments made in this way would not fall foul of the 3rd party payment rule because they were not connected to football.

     

     

    HMRC’s position is that under the ebt scheme as operated by Rangers players received payments that were contractual in nature. Players were rewarded for footballing performance, in other words the “loans” were wages. It may be the case that HMRC have copies of letters to players and/ or their agents guaranteeing that any “loan” made under the scheme would not have to be paid back. These letters would help HMRC in making the case that the ebt payments were in effect disguised wages.

     

     

    Under these circumstances the ebt payments should have been included in the player contracts as submitted to the SFA. If they have not been included it is arguable that these contracts were invalid and punishments for failing to correctly register players may be applicable.

     

     

    However, until there is a final decision as to the nature of the ebt payments, I cannot see how any SFA committee can comment or pass judgement on this issue. We should not let up on the issue but in my opinion it won’t become live until the FTT finds in HMRC’s favour and Rangers accept this conclusion.

     

     

    Hail Hail.

  12. Awe_Naw_No_Annoni_Oan_Anaw_Noo on

    Pigalle

     

     

    Negotiating with Mrs. Paul67 as we speak but she is a tough negotiator ;-)

     

     

    HH

  13. northbhoy ... \o/ on

    More to ponder on Paul67,

     

     

    Uttering a lot of

     

     

    Utter nutter…..who’s that slimey snake…..

     

     

    I remember from one of my previous jobs giving support to those who unfortunately were in fairly desperate state in the 80’s cause they’re only income was the giro and they had to live hand to mouth.

     

     

    That was the first time that I had heard of the charge of ‘uttering’ and it was often applied rigoursly and with impunity by the Benefits Agency to prosecute those who presented giros at the same time as reporting it as lost. In the interim between claiming the giro was lost/stolen/missing and presenting the re-issued giro they could occasionally double up their money. Illegal yes, they got done , if caught, and lost benefit or got fined, occasionally gaoled……….for ‘uttering’ ie presenting the original giro for payment.

     

     

    Seems similar to the snake’s behaviour !!

     

     

    Great goals last night. Wot a belter from a determined Charlie M.

     

    HH

  14. Moving laterally when the Rangers die

     

    Passing the Parcel when the Rangers die

     

    Removing the wife’s burlesque corset when the Rangers die

     

     

    That means i’ll then be able to eat lashing of jelly and Ice cream

  15. From R*ngers Media – Stan, the Blantyre-born billionaire:

     

     

    ‘A poster on another forum has asked Rangers fans to spread the word.

     

     

    “my name is stan from blantyre ,myself and john bomber brown and some well thought of rangers buissness men are holding a few meetings about starting a rescue fund .we have about 30 x rangers players on board and we will be looking for all rangers clubs around the country to hold speakers nights and fun raisers we will bring along x players for q and or after dinner with auction prizes and raffles.we want to raise as much as we can ,we raised 50,000 for the rangers benevolent fund last year with 1 function with the help of you bears and the x players we have on board plus some good loyal rangers men we can make a differance lets here your thoughts” ‘

  16. philvisreturns says:

     

    23 February, 2012 at 14:47

     

    Random thought:

     

     

    What if Rangers go into liquidation, but instead of a NewCo trying to re-enter the Scottish leagues, Banstead Athletic change their name to “Rangers Football Club”, and secure the use of Ibrox as their new stadium?

     

     

    Within a few years “Rangers” could be playing in the EPL, or at least The Championship.

     

     

    At which point they could be sold for a princely sum, assuming the English football bubble doesn’t burst before then.

     

    ———-

     

     

    Exactly what one of the more knowlegeable?? Huns?? in my work has been saying for a few weeks now???

  17. made some jelly last night for my daughter’s birthday today – couldn’t stop grinning!

     

     

    PS

     

     

    labour MP supended for allegedly headbutting a tory MP in the pub

     

    1 -0!

  18. Awe_Naw_No_Annoni_Oan_Anaw_Noo on

    Thebhoy…etc,

     

     

    However, until there is a final decision as to the nature of the ebt payments, I cannot see how any SFA committee can comment or pass judgement on this issue. We should not let up on the issue but in my opinion it won’t become live until the FTT finds in HMRC’s favour and Rangers accept this conclusion.

     

     

    Why would the current hun owner offer to pay it off at 2.5m a year ?

     

     

    HH

  19. TheOriginalSadiesBhoy on

    twists n turns says:

     

    23 February, 2012 at 14:47

     

     

    If any of those you named was hooked up to a lie detector machine it would go ‘off the radar’.

  20. The Battered Bunnet on

    Here’s one for UTLR

     

     

    What about for the Motherwell game on saturday, having a big, colourful parcel, tied with a bow, passed around the stands?

     

     

    It could pretty much go all the way round the stadium.

  21. Awe Naw

     

     

    That bampot (I often wish we could swear on this site) King on radio clyde last night had me thinking like a hun. I just wanted someone to grab him as he left the studio and batter his face for a few minutes. Seriously, honest and sensible debate is impossible when r-swipes like him are behind a microphone. I can’t believe he riles me so much. As I say, it’s bad when you have hun like thoughts taking over.

     

     

    I am generally a very intelligent, rational, balanced, knowledgable -and extraordinarily handsome- person:-) Last night I was losing the power of rational thought, all sense of balance had gone and I was an angry ugly hunlike animal. I had to turn off. To be fair, Delahunt did smack him down a couple of times, but it wasn’t a physical slap, and that’s what I needed to hear to stay tuned.

     

     

    I ain’t listening tonight if that hun swine is on talking through his bigotted sectarian blue specs.

  22. Many precedents for the stripping of titles with Juve & marseille the most famous. But also in other sports such as melbourne storm of the aussie rugby league. All done for the purposes of upholding the integrity of the game- the question is: do the SFA do integrity?

  23. The Singing Detective on

    So news of Frank Carson’s sad demise puts paid to the persistent rumours that he posted as Kojo……

     

     

    Whoever would have guessed that Frank had a secret identical twin living in W….?

     

     

    Lil’ Virginia laughed and laughed,till the Ice Cream and Jelly came down her pretty nose….

  24. Coneybhoy says:

     

    23 February, 2012 at 14:55

     

     

    ‘labour MP supended for allegedly headbutting a tory MP in the pub

     

    1 -0!’

     

     

     

    Major Joyce, who has a BA (Hons) in religious studies is accused of head butting openly gay Tory MP Stuart Andrew.

     

     

    It’s hard not to laugh.

  25. wonkyradar says:

     

    23 February, 2012 at 15:02

     

     

    Funny you should say that. I have literally within the last 5 minutes just been reading an article about the Aussie Rugby League (NRL) competition, and the rumour among the fans is that melbourne have produced another very strong squad for this season…. almost suspiciously strong. This after being stripped of a number of titles for exceeding the salary cap.

     

     

    Rugby league leads the way in many areas of sport though. The game has virtually no cash (think SPL without Celtic and the Huns) yet the SuperLeague still has full time professional refs, while Celtic plc, with its multi million pound players, are being refereed by a baptist minister on his day off!!!

     

     

    Incredible.

  26. Monaghan1900 says:

     

    23 February, 2012 at 14:54

     

    A poster on another forum has asked Rangers fans to spread the word.

     

     

    “my name is stan from blantyre ,myself and john bomber brown and some well thought of rangers buissness men are holding

     

     

    Can anyone tell me what “buissness men ” are?

     

    Is this just below Grand Master?

  27. Auld Neil Lennon heid on

    philvisreturns says:

     

     

    23 February, 2012 at 14:47

     

     

    Random thought:

     

    ——————————-

     

    Whatever league Banstead or equivalent club plays in, the other teams in that league would have to agree to travel to Scotland to play. They would need to be induced to do so but if it was workable then whom would Celtic take over to follow the same route?

     

     

    We could play our development squad under the club taken over’s name initially and strengthen as the “wee” team moved up the leagues.

     

     

    I cannot see either the SFA or FA not finding reason to stop it happening.

  28. The Singing Detective says:

     

    23 February, 2012 at 15:05

     

    So news of Frank Carson’s sad demise puts paid to the persistent rumours that he posted as Kojo……

     

     

    Kojo has not posted since Frank died!!

  29. tigertim says:

     

    23 February, 2012 at 15:09

     

     

    ‘Kojo has not posted since Frank died!!’

     

     

    Not under the name of Kojo, but he has posted.

  30. tigertim says:

     

    23 February, 2012 at 15:07

     

     

    Can anyone tell me what “buissness men ” are?

     

    Is this just below Grand Master?

     

     

    They must be the kind of big (perhaps French) businessmen who can make what is referred to as a “differance”.

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