After Celtic’s reversal in Astana I pinned the decision to allow Kelvin Wilson to leave after the Elfsborg tie as critical. It left us playing an unaccustomed central defensive partnership against Shakhter while generating only £2.5m.
Before Saturday’s game with Dundee United Neil Lennon suggested the player and his agent had been “naughty”, which might explain things.
It is not unknown for players to cite that they are “not in the right frame of mind” to compete for the club which pays their wages while there is an alternative deal on the table. This tactic is a certified banker for the player, who does not need to fail a fitness test, he just needs to look a bit down in the dumps. It is a shocking state of affairs which can cost their employers dearly.
I’m absolutely delighted to see the emergence of some interest in Celtic’s financial position over the last week. The club have long term loan agreements, an overdraft facility, and, at any point in time, cash on deposit. We have preference shares which, as long as the club attains certain financial covenants, will attract a dividend. At any point in time we also money owe trade creditors, utility companies, other football clubs and HMRC, but as you know, for 126 years Celtic have always paid their bills.
Our NET debt position at on 30 June 2012 was £2.77m. Since then we have had an excellent financial and footballing year. In 2005 UK accounting rules changed, re-classifying some equity categories and debt. In their 2006 financial statement, then chairman, Brian Quinn wrote:
“Under FRS 25 the group’s Preference Shares and Convertible Preferred Ordinary Shares, previously defined as equity, were reclassified as a combination of debt and equity; and non-equity dividends were in essence re-classified as interest. As a result, net assets were £3.8m lower, net debt £4.7m higher and interest charges £771,000 higher than would have been reported prior to the implementation of FRS 25.”
This was “hidden” away on page one of the accounts. Further details were published at appropriate places throughout the accounts. A video presentation was also given to shareholders and the media to explain the situation further.
Perhaps the word “transparency” should be used instead of “hidden” by some.
For further reading on FRS 25 see page 5 of this report.
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SCULLYBHOY
I for one won’t.
http://whatbaleearns.co.uk/
Marti
Auldheid, if it were D, everyone would know all the gruesome details. There is no way Campbell would allow Rangers, Sevco and himself personally to take flak if he could play the whataboutery card, and no way the papers would be quiet about it.
The reason we know this is that, in the absence of any real negative Celtic stories, people just make their own up.
I’m Neil Lennon (tamrabam)
15:06 on
2 September, 2013
I’m moving more into D as well. If one bad apple corrupts the barrel and we are all in the same barrel??????
gebhoy
15:25 on
2 September, 2013
Think of it this way. It’s those shareholders’ reward for investing to save the club. We might have got the money from elsewhere but at least some of this money is going back to supporters who might put it back into the club and not just banks who wouldn’t.
BAWSMAN
I personally don’t think Celtic have been complicit in this,nor that we have skeletons of our own to hide.
I genuinely believe that we are refusing to take the SFA et al to task as the backlash would be severe.
I also doubt it is due to missing the bigot pound.
It’s gotta be circumspection or naively,both of which are better than the alternatives.
The alternatives are unpalatable. And that is why,IMO,the question should be asked.
You obviously agree,and I congratulate you for contacting CANAMALAR.
WISH THERE WERE MORE LIKE YOU!
gebhoy
Few in the ‘rank and file’ can touch you for obtuseness.
Right!
My head hurts with all this financial stuff and there is no real Celtic game for 2 weeks, I better log off and get on with some job applications instead of worrying about shares.
Play nice
The Honest Mistake loves being first @ 14:53
Very good point.
gebhoy @ 14:53
http://footballtaxhavens.wordpress.com/2012/12/19/celtic-fcs-9-million-hidden-debt-paying-6-in-perpetuity/
Time to cheer everyone up with a rather joyous moment,first posted-I think-by DJBEE
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BI8HClwCQAAWX93.jpg:large
Weeminger,
All well and good, but if paying out the preference shares because the criteria is set so low that in any cash positive year they will attract a dividend means a difference to club policy that affects the team i.e. spending then that’s where i have the problem.
Imagine a scenario where we have the chance to buy a player for £5 million, but spending that £5 million would mean no preference share dividend, would that or could that decision on whether to spend that money be compromised or subject to undue influence?
HH
gebhoy
gebhoy
15:25 on 2 September, 2013
Auldhied,
For the rank and file (like me) the thought of paying out dividends whether having to or not does not sit well
————————-
When we have share issues, the fans will buy shares but more than most shares will be bought by investors.
They don’t buy the shares like we would to put on the wall, it’s to make money.
If you didn’t offer dividends, you wouldn’t sell the shares. Ie get no investment into the club.
Think about dragons den. The dragons give these companies x amount of thousands of pounds for a stake so that they can make money out the business, either by selling shares or through divedends when the business turns a profit.
Without dividends, you would struggle to attract investors.
Celtic have had a few now, where investors and not fans have ploughed millions into the club.
Take DD, he has put many millions into the club. He will take a tiny tiny fraction out in dividends.
Can you imagine where we would be without the capital injection the like of DD have out into the club.
It’s not just Celtic, it’s just business.
Hail Hail.
I’m the only guy in Tesco Rutherglen still wearing shorts,
September 2nd CSC
Daily Reprobate going berserk over Stokesy free kick.
Stokesy said he had to move the ball back to get the ten yards!!
Hahaha.
Far too smart for those pathetic zombies.
Barry Bannon to Crystal Palace
RE: 1/9/13 – Part 1
NegAnon2 @ 15:49
I hope you are right but forgive me for thinking on this one that you’re not.
Doctor Whatfor @ 15:51
Infiltrate then dominate.
Auldheid @ 15:57
I did make it clear it is not my view but it is a view that I’ve heard expressed many times by different supporters in different places.
See Kevtic @ 16:26 and iPaddy McCourt Supports Wee Oscar @ 16:28 for examples. It makes sense to me. I get their point but I don’t see why it has to be a Rangers. Proven cheats of the highest order. Them and the SFA have made a mockery of Scottish football.
I also wrote that these supporters have expressed without competition the support would dwindle. I can see their point on that.
If less supporters put money in. Logically that has a knock-on effect on those who invest in the game. I get that too but I feel integrity is more valuable and important.
Steinreignedsupreme @ 15:57
Rangers are dead! Long live Rangers!
iPaddy McCourt Supports Wee Oscar @ 16:28
The fact that they never has make a mockery of the sport. Therefore it is now just entertainment. The sport will sacrificed as it was less important than the survival and fast-tracking of a Rangers.
67Heaven … I am Neil Lennon, supporting WEE OSCAR..!!.. Ibrox belongs to the creditors @ 16:30
I am not an anti-boarder. Facts are important. Somebody a day ago. Maybe two days ago, late at night posted a lot of quotes from Celtic regarding wanting ‘Rangers’ back ASAP.
I’d need to look back but I don’t have the time just now. If somebody else doesn’t re-post it soon, I will.
Too many posters on CQN feel the need to put posters into boxes. People with extreme or blinkered views can be fit into boxes but most people can’t be pigeon-holed.
damn , that’s us screwed, ah well we haven’t done that badly since 1888 – a pity it has to end now
MORRISET THE 23RD
Simplistic post from someone trying to stir. Not you,btw. The originator.
Using that argument,every company is in debt to its shareholders.
Tallybhoy –
you never updated us on the big news of the day, whats happening on SSN Italia ?
gebhoy
15:25 on
2 September, 2013
Auldhied,
For the rank and file (like me) the thought of paying out dividends whether having to or not does not sit well.
Especially when the team needs more investment, especially when we contribute more and more each year to make the club a success. Add to that the problems between the club and the support, the offensive behavior bill, all the shit the normal fan goes through, it really would be gutting to see even £10K being taken out.
HH
gebhoy
+++++++++++++++++++
I want hand outs from no one, rich or poor and if somebody paid me money on the basis I would pay it back with a dividend then that is the contract.
What you are asking is for the investor to pay his money to a player to keep you happy. Is that what you are saying? Really?
I bet you are way above that.
What you contribute the vast majority of it goes on giving you something to watch and support. Football carries with it the emotional invstment unlike other forms of entertainmnet and that is why we can pay to watch a movie enjoy or not enjoy it and leave it without another thought. What we do not do is think we contributed to those who made the movie possible.
We pay, we saw, we left.
The big difference of course is we will not pay to watch a bad movie twice, but we will pay to watch a bad team always and that is down to each of us. No one else so why get annoyed at others for our choices?
Bourne
I saw a fellow in a pair of 70s running shorts come out of Dello’s at lunchtime. He nipped straight into Greggs next door…
TBB,
Why are you having a go at me, if you don’t like what i post scroll on by, its not hard, “obtuseness” is it, sorry for not being as “intelligent” as the CQN mafia on here, you really are full of yourselves..
HH
gebhoy
DD is the safety net to Celtic that Rangers never had.
Desmond stole the Daglish money
Brave Tom Williams.
BOBBY MURDOCH’S CURLED-UP WINKLEPICKERS forza Oscar and Mackenzie
15:43 on 2 September, 2013
‘Using that argument,every company is in debt to its shareholders.’
#####
Not really. Not if the company has only ordinary shares.
Paul,
We are a PLC, the Long term loan agreements must be included in the published annual accounts ? we must know not only the value available under the loan agreements but also the amount utilized at the end of each reporting period ?
I get these reports but have never been able ( smart enough) to unravel them !
bsr
“I’m the only guy in Tesco Rutherglen still wearing shorts, ”
Why has everyone else in Rutherglen Tescos taken their shorts off and why are you not joining in?
timaloy29
15:47 on
2 September, 2013
I assume you mean the hairdresser from the Channel 4 sitcom. What a bounder.
Do what I do, take the payment as shares, Dividend Re-Investment Plan (DRIP) Each year my wee part of Celtic increases at no cost to the club, simple, eh?
Paul67 –
The same questions seem to be asked over and over (cue for a song!) on CQN regarding how Celtic are financed, debt levels, shareholder divis etc. Would it be worth putting up an FAQ that covers the most commonly-asked questions? Obviously the numbers change from year to year, but the principles will be the same.
GEBHOY
With respect,most people on here have discussed your opinions openly and with genuine interest.
Not everyone has agreed,but that’s no reason to get upset,mate.
Sometimes the bassas even disagree with me,and I’m always right!
Calm,hit them with a belter of a post.
Apparently that works,never having made one myself I’m not sure.
BOBBY MURDOCH’S CURLED-UP WINKLEPICKERS forza Oscar and Mackenzie
15:33 on
2 September, 2013
—————————————————————–
I have tried writing and e-mailing the SFA/SPL over the past 18 monnths and have not even had the decency of a fob off response to say they have received my letters/mails.
The SFA in particular annoy me as it accepts taxpayers money from the government, they should be accountable.
I have not heard of anyone who has illicited a response from Hampden. It is a scandal.
gebhoy
For goodness sake settle down my man. For someone who has admitted to knowing nothing about the Preference Shares or who might own them, you sure have an awful lot to say about the matter!
I can tell you that I received my Dividend Cheque in the post today, from Celtic plc.
I, like thousands of other ordinary supporters, purchased these shares as part of Fergus’ original share issue in 1994.
For your information, I own 500 6% Cumulative Preference Shares of 60p each, and today, Celtic plc paid me a dividend of 3.24p per share, ie. £16.20.
I have received this same amount every year since 1995, sometimes I cash the cheque, sometimes I don’t, but then, that’s my concern, not yours.
Gettingyourknickersinatwist CSC
Ireland for The Bhoys…..?
Hmmmmm…………………………….
There are umptreen well worded posts that describe the origins, obligations and value of Celtic’s pref shares
but…
Dividends are bad
but…
Dividends are bad
but…
Dividends are bad
but…
Dividends are bad
repeat to fade
Morrissey the 23rd
15:43 on
2 September, 2013
Auldheid @ 15:57
I did make it clear it is not my view but it is a view that I’ve heard expressed many times by different supporters in different places.
See Kevtic @ 16:26 and iPaddy McCourt Supports Wee Oscar @ 16:28 for examples. It makes sense to me. I get their point but I don’t see why it has to be a Rangers. Proven cheats of the highest order. Them and the SFA have made a mockery of Scottish football.
I also wrote that these supporters have expressed without competition the support would dwindle. I can see their point on that.
If less supporters put money in. Logically that has a knock-on effect on those who invest in the game. I get that too but I feel integrity is more valuable and important.
+++++++++++++++++
Not sure what point that was in response to but with regard to the last part your preaching to the converted.
Did at least one blog on TSFM with a resolution that Alex Thomson reported on
http://blogs.channel4.com/alex-thomsons-view/scottish-football-sport-business/3882
Sadly not enough clubs’ trusts were interested and that is why we get what we get.
bankiebhoy
“Ireland for The Bhoys…..?”
What, all of it? Including the occupied 6?