Someone kindly directed me to the audio file from BBC Radio Scotland’s Sportsound programme last night. Under recent scrutiny for his role, while general secretary and director of Rangers, in the alleged improper registrations of Rangers players with the SFA, he gave BBC reporter, Chick Young his thoughts on the matter.
While the BBC gave a robust defence of Mr Ogilvie stating that he was not in any way guilty of wrong-doing in relation to tax matters, which I am happy to accept, the entire debate never touched the question which has the potential to invalidate over a decade’s worth of football results.
Article 12.1 of the SFA’s Articles of Association states, “all payments, whether made by the club or otherwise, which are to be made to a player solely relating to his playing activities must be fully recorded”. The redacted EBT agreement published last month by The Sun suggested Rangers would pay the player £1200 appearance money.
The SFA should have no interest in whether tax is due on this money, which is a matter for HM Revenue and Customs, they should only be concerned as to whether Rangers submitted details to the SFA of any payments made in connection to football, including appearance money.
My Young, perhaps trying to help, explained that Mr Ogilvie, as company secretary until 2002, had administrative responsibilities, but took on a legislative role on becoming general secretary that year. This suggests Mr Ogilvie had primary responsibility to ensure Rangers complied with the necessary legislative requirements, including registering payments to players.
Should have mentioned earlier, Mr Young suggested Rangers EBTs “could actually prove, bizarrely, to be one of the great coups of all time”.
He’s not wrong there.
We will address comments by Sir David Murray, widely reported this morning, later.
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thomthethim
sorry bud I would be lying if I said the thought had not crossed my mind. ;-)
Hail Hail
Murray’s comments yesterday are risible. IIs he seriously expecting us to believe that no-one in his business was able to detect a problem with a man like Whyte – a Motherwell born businessman, with connections to the steel industry, who owned an executive box at Ibrox.
We aren’t talking about a mystery Asian billionaire here. Whyte existed right under Murray’s nose. A simple Google search uncovers articles in Private Eye which lay bare his business past. THe due diligence period lasted 6 months – 6 months!!! – and in all that time Murray was satisfied that this man, which an easily identifiable string of business failures behind him – was the real deal…
And even if Murray and his “advisors” failed to spot this, what about the Chairman of RFC and the Independent Board? f I were AJ I would be furious – the entire independent board warning Murray about doing a deal with Whyte, only to be dismissed out of hand.
It’s Orwellian. I half expect Murray to say “We are at war with Eurasia. We have always been at war with Eurasia…”
But the most embarassing, and depressing thing, is that none of the hand-picked press guys has asked even the most basic questions. Once again, the pronouncements are carried like tablets down from the mountain. In one day, a real journalist like Alex Thomson has put more relevant questions to the actors in this sorry saga than our press guys have managed in a year.
It’s appalling, and deeply concerning regarding the state of civic Scotland, that a man like this can get away with such obvious and self-serving spin.
Plumbers and Painters working for free, Oh! how the mighty have fallen. I am sure Duff&Phelps fully appreciate the fans raising the money to pay their fee.
RANGERS Supporters Liaison Officer Jim Hannah has revealed he has had a staggering response from fans to the Fighting Fund where supporters can donate to help the club now.
Hannah and club legend Sandy Jardine are in Belfast tonight to explain the initiative to the Northern Ireland supporters after launching the money-spinning project yesterday.
There are 120 registered clubs in Ulster and most of them will have representation at the meeting tonight.
Hannah said: “We have had a phenomenal response from people and we already had single donations of £20,000 and £5000 before launch.
“On the other side of the scale one elderly lady came in last week and offered £20 from her pension. There are just fantastic stories developing all the time but the most important thing is to raise money for the club.
“It’s amazing what fans are willing to do. We have had offers from plumbers and painters that if work is needed at the club they will come in and do it for free.”
At this rate, Sir David Murray will never become a real boy.
Jiminy Cricket must be disappointed in his irrepressible fabulism. (thumbsup)
Phil Mac doesn’t mention him by name in his recent article but it sounds like he’s spoken with Mr Thomson!
“I was called yesterday by an award winning television reporter who told me that he wanted to get to the bottom of “Rangersgate” and he hqs the considerable resources of his organisation at his disposal”.
(Full article for those who haven’t seen it – http://www.philmacgiollabhain.ie/game-on/)
Sounds like things are about to move up a gear or two.
Get your jelly and ice cream ready for the main event Bhoys and Ghirls! :oD
HH
/Bishop B
This is a hypothetical question:
What would your reaction be if der Hun1 was liquidized then congealed as der Hun2 with automatic entry into SPHell- they play at Ibrox, train at MP, have no debts, no liabilities and have brand new owners willing to restart the crazy cycle of obscene spending of yonder years?
This is the picture of a majority of Scots sports hacks…it takes a severely morally compromised imagination to want this scenario to take shape for “the good of the game”- but what if it did happen with a few minor penalties in place- how would you react?
Afternoon mi amigos!
Things are warming up for Scotlands shame, it looks like a most excellent weekend ahead in Glasgow is just gonnae get smiles better, or was that miles bitter?
V
wonkyradar – how would you react?
I’d be annoyed, but then I’d wake up and realise it was all a dream.
Because the Rangers are bust
They are crumbling to dust
And I’ve got jelly and ice cream. (thumbsup)
“On the other side of the scale one elderly lady came in last week and offered £20 from her pension. There are just fantastic stories developing all the time but the most important thing is to raise money for the club.”
Really? Whatever next?
Rangers players gifted Free School Meal tickets by young fans
Unemployed mechanic offers to service Rangers Stars’ Bentleys for free
Rangers Foundation foregoes Charity match revenue to support the club
Maybe I went a bit too far there.
alex thomson @alextomo
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· Close Open Details Former senior man at Rangers and SFA says demotion of Rangers to Divison 3 would be good for competition and Scottish football
Kennedy has told BBC Scotland ‘I don’t really want to buy the club … I’m happy to take it on. But I’ll be equally happy if someone else can take it on.’
Sounds like he’s motivated, eh?
alex thomson @alextomo Close
Former senior man at Rangers and SFA says demotion of Rangers to Divison 3 would be good for competition and Scottish football.
Has Duffield been talking out of turn to the pig headed liar?
Philvis:
I know it does stretch the use of “hypothetical” to the very limits of credulity!
“On the other side of the scale one elderly lady came in last week and offered £20 from her pension”.
However, she quickly withdrew this offer when she found out that the £20 would not be going to Mr Custard.
SCENARIO 1: Rangers lose the big tax case by making contractual EBT payments to players. They are in clear breach of player registration rules which require all payments to players to be on one contract which has been declared to the SFA.
SCENARIO 2: Rangers win the big tax case by successfully arguing that the EBT payments were non-contractual. They are still in clear breach of player registration rules which require all payments to players to be through their contract which has been declared to the SFA.
RANGERS WIN THE TAX CASE = ILLEGITIMATE PAYMENTS TO PLAYERS
RANGERS LOSE THE TAX CASE = ILLEGITIMATE PAYMENTS TO PLAYERS
Either way Rangers have to be stripped of all titles and cups won during the EBT regime. This should be completely inescapable.
SCENARIO 1: Rangers win the big tax case but are left with £20m of unpaid tax (wee tax case and overdue PAYE/NIC) and no income streams. HMRC hold at least 25% of the debt by value and can veto a CVA if they are not happy with its terms. Rangers need someone with a spare £20m to pour down the drain to buy a club with no income streams and no European football next season.
SCENARIO 2: Rangers lose the big tax case leaving a £70m tax liability and no income streams to pay it off. A CVA would only be possible if HMRC threw their hand to keep Rangers alive. Rangers need someone with a spare £70m to pour down the drain to buy a football club with no income streams and no European football next season.
RANGERS WIN THE TAX CASE = LIQUIDATION IS LIKELY
RANGERS LOSE THE TAX CASE = LIQUIDATION IS INEVITABLE
Either way, Rangers lose their history, their pathetic five stars, their league status, the opportunity for a new company to participate in European football for three years and a possible down-payment to HMRC for future VAT/PAYE to get the phoenix company off the ground.
Have I got any of this wrong or should I ask Chick young to explain it to me.
Craiginho
wonkyradar
That is the most likely scenario. However, they will still be a new club with NO history at all. They never won 9 in a row nor even a title. In substance they may be the same but they will be brand new with no European points and no access to Europe for 3 years.
There is also a small matter of the fact that Ticketus own 100,000 of their season tickets for next 3 years and if part of the buy out or new co, will want this back.
Their income streams will be dramatically reduced. As a newco the Tax man can and will ask for a bond to be deposited to cover a year’s taxes. They will only be able to spend what they earn as normal credit from banks will be incredibly hard to come by.
If this comes to pass, the level of players they can afford will be much lower quality than they have now and they will be reduced to also rans.
Mort
TBB youre two recent posts (you ken the ones) are master class!
Well done sensei.
V
HH
The Battered Bunnet
They are not raising money for the club, just ensuring the adminsitration process carries along and even if they raise a signifcant amount…
There is a wee guy called Hector who will come along and take it.
BlantyreKev
My understanding is that it is an Employee Benefit Trust and that it is open to employees of Rangers. If you are employed as a player at Rangers and therefore qualify for awards from the trust then I would think those awards would be related to your duties as a player.
wonkyradar
In that hypothetical scenario I would be extremely surprised and would spend a considerable length of time shaking my head in befuddlement.
Len Brennan on 14 March, 2012 at 12:33 said:
Thanks for posting the link. It sounds as though the hacks in Scotland will be heading for the hills. lol moment when Phil mentions moonbeams hhhhhahaaaaaaaaaa
gsu
The Battered Bunnet – Duff & Phelps to work for free?
HMRC to be so impressed with the dignified manner in which the loyal scroungers evaded their taxes they drop the case against them?
Craig Whyte to walk away without asking for his pound back?
Leading hun celebrities, like Marti Pellow and Andy Cameron, to get their showbiz pals together to record a charity single for Hun Aid?
As we know, Celtic was set up for charitable purposes to feed the hungry.
Who would have thought that Rangers would become a charity case?
Are there no workhouses? (thumbsup)
wonkyradar on 14 March, 2012 at 12:35 said:
“This is a hypothetical question”
I don’t mean to sound rude because it is a hypothetical question after all, but as there is absolutely no chance of Rangers existing is any form beyond the end of this season, it seems pointless to waste time on it…
Hail Hail
Third part of Alex Thomson blog now online.
He hints at some TV time after further digging.
All is going well on this front it seems.
Mr. Custard…..I’m still laughing
pigalle
Paul 67
Former Rangers director admits to an outstanding tax liability early 2011 (the wee tax case which was not in dispute)
This must therefore invalidate Rangers UEFA Licence for 11/12
HH..
Today’s Glasgow Rankers Herald puts me off my lunch.. Darren King allows Murray to spout forth his rhetoric without any question and the editorial of the herald is no better talking of a club ” with a proud sporting history”…
Complete farce.. We have no media .. Murray just appears and they all kneel..
Shame on the Herald…
HH
Afternoon bhoys
For some of the more in the know crew.
If ra gers fail to meet the euro registration details for season 2012-2013.
Then do not get set up as a newco before then would it have to be 3 complete years as a member club making it 4 years in total out of euro participation ?
Jam67
How we laughed:
Celebrities and politicians line up to back Rangers for glory
May 14 2008 By Lachlan Mackinnon
GORDON Brown backed Rangers to do Scotland proud by lifting the UEFA Cup tonight.
The Prime Minister led a host of famous Scots who lent their support to the True Blues ahead of the showdown with Zenit St Petersburg in Manchester.
Brown said: “I want to send to Walter Smith and the whole Rangers team my best wishes. It has been an incredible achievement only losing two goals in the knockout phase of the tournament.
“With the wishes of the whole country, I hope and I believe that Rangers will be champions.”
Wet Wet Wet singer Marti Pellow said: “It is a wonderful day for Scottish football.
“I am so proud of Walter Smith, Ally McCoist and the rest of the lads.”
Singer Sandi Thom said: “Good luck tonight lads. I hope the sun stays out for you – I’ll be watching down the pub.”
Golf ace Colin Montgomerie said: “I will be in Ireland for the Irish Open but will cancel everything to make sure that I can watch and cheer Rangers on. I will be sitting in front of the telly totally focused, cheering Walter and the boys to victory.
“I would like to wish Walter, Ally and all the boys every bit of luck for tonight.”
Pop Idol winner Michelle McManus said: “It is great for Scottish football. Good luck to Rangers.”
First Minister Alex Salmond revealed he would be cheering the Gers on from the stands of the City of Manchester Stadium.
He said: “Rangers’ success in reaching the final of the UEFA Cup has been fabulous for the club and has enhanced Scotland’s reputation in the footballing world.
“Our clubs have performed admirably on the European stage this season, with Celtic reaching the last 16 of the Champions League, Aberdeen the knock-out phase of the UEFA Cup and Rangers going all the way to the showpiece event in Manchester.
“When you add all that to Scotland’s famous victories over France, it’s clear that the national game is healthy again.
“Rangers’ supporters have conducted themselves commendably throughout their European campaign, providing a further boost for the reputation of Scots fans, and I’m sure they will enjoy the historic occasion of the friendly final.
“The City of Manchester Council have been extremely helpful by erecting giant screens in three areas to accommodate the tens of thousands of Rangers supporters.
“It would be a tremendous achievement for a Scottish team to win the UEFA Cup, and I hope Rangers can bring it back to Glasgow and Scotland.”
Bra tycoon Michelle Mone said: “I think it is incredible for Scottish football that Rangers have made it this far.
“It would be wonderful if a Scottish team won this trophy. I was meant to be going away tonight but I’ve cancelled it so I can watch the game at home.”
Former snooker champion Graeme Dott said: “I will be going to Manchester and hopefully we can do Scotland proud. We are one game away from becoming legends.
“There are five of us going down and we can’t wait, even though none of us have tickets. We’re a hard team to beat and we will do it in extra-time or on penalties.”
Scotland rugby star Kenny Logan said: “I think we are going to win – nothing will stop Rangers now. When you get to a final like this, you are remembered for losing just as well as winning and I hope that Rangers are going to be remembered for winning.”
Leading QC Donald Findlay, a former Rangers vice-chairman, said: “To get to the final is a great personal achievement for Walter Smith and I am delighted for him.”
Rangers-daft comic Andy Cameron said: “Walter has got this team firing on all cylinders and I know we can go all the way now. The final is really one to savour and hopefully win.”
The Moderator of the General Assembly of the Church of Scotland, the Right Reverend Sheilagh Kesting, said: “Reaching the UEFA Cup final is a significant achievement in itself. Victory would be a welcome bonus not only for the club but for every part of Scottish football.”
Labour’s Holyrood leader Wendy Alexander said: “This is a great achievement for a Scottish club and a real opportunity to put Scotland on the international map. I’d like to wish Walter Smith and his players all the best and I hope all of the Rangers fans travelling to Manchester enjoy the atmosphere and do Scotland proud.”
Scottish Tory leader Annabel Goldie said: “It is tremendous for Scottish football that we are represented in the UEFA Cup final for the second time in five years.
“The domestic game gets a huge boost from nights like these and I wish Rangers the best of luck and hopefully Walter Smith and his team will bring the cup to Scotland.”
Nicol Stephen, leader of the Scottish Liberal Democrats, added: “Walter Smith and his team have done a tremendous job taking Rangers to the UEFA Cup Final.
“The vast majority of fans are getting right behind Rangers, regardless of what team they normally support.
“As an Aberdeen fan, in the 25th anniversary year of Aberdeen’s European triumph, I want to wish the team all the best.”
The SNP Deputy First Minister Nicola Sturgeon, MSP for Govan, home of Rangers’ stadium, said: “It will be fantastic if Rangers can win a European trophy, not only for the club but for Scottish football.”
Scottish Secretary Des Browne sent a message of support to Smith. He said: “I just wanted to wish you and the whole squad good luck for tonight’s game.
“I am sure that in the beginning of this competition some people could only dare hope that you could make the final.
“However, you have proved the doubters wrong and the whole of Scotland will be behind you, cheering you on to victory.
“You have managed to bring the success of Rangers to a global audience and that has been as a direct result of world-class leadership and management, working alongside a terrific team spirit with collective endeavour.”
ALEX SALMOND ‘Rangers’ success has been fabulous for the club and has enhanced Scotland’s reputation in the footballing world’
MARTI PELLOW ‘It is a wonderful day for Scottish football.
I am so proud of Walter Smith, Ally McCoist and the rest of the lads’
COLIN MONTGOMERIE ‘I will be in Ireland for the Irish Open but will cancel everything to make sure I can watch and cheer Rangers on’
KENNY LOGAN ‘I think we are going to win – nothing will stop Rangers now’
ANDY CAMERON ‘Walter has got this team firing on all cylinders and I know we can go all the way now’
GRAEME DOTT ‘I will be going to Manchester and hopefully we can do Scotland proud. We are one game away from becoming legends’
SANDI THOM ‘Good luck tonight lads. I hope the sun stays out for you – I’ll be watching down the pub’
(thumbsup)
Darren = Darrell.. Who cares.. Still rotten journalism…
Carluke Shamrock
Saw the latest show advertised on the Celtic discombob. clicks in and its on spreaker,fair enough but battery runs out on mobile half way through show,change battery then realise there’s no time function on spreaker to go back to where my listening had ended so I went into the CS site to listen as they do have the time function but as far as I can see the latest show is not up yet.
Wha hapnin’?
Dawwwwel & now chico helping our cause no end with their stupidity, keep talking boys the “Internet bampots” are listening taking notes and are returning shortly to choke you with your own words.
Reminded of a text i was sent a while back from a friend “One only receives what is given.The game of life is a game of boomerangs,Our thoughts,deeds & words,return to us sooner or later,with astounding accuracy”.(Florence Schovel Shin) or today make your words and actions sweet as tomorrow you may have to eat them. I hope the MSM are hungry:))).
How can we help shine the light on Ogilvie and keep the pressure on,(I Emailed UEFA but no response )?????.
HAIL HAIL
I see that Minty claims that there was little in print or online re The MBB.
Utter tosh —-
The MBB managed to ” lose ” @ 750 k in 1996 — it was well reported.
1999’s Vital Holdings scam was much reported..[it was a beauty !]
The Central Bank of Ireland printed notices in the Irish Press warning the public to avoid one of the MBB’s investment opportunities.
The Corporate Resolve Scam was well reported.
The First Capital scam was well reported.
The UK’s Takeover Panel published it’s view that The MBB was a shyster -that was well reported..
I could go on .
Guff , Minty, Guff
Theres a sad end to the lovely line from earlier when an elderly walked into ibrokes and held over £20 of her pension money, the lady in question has just been informed she now owns kyle lafferty, kirk broadfoot, a rowing boat and a bike.
The fact that elaborate fantasies and phantasmagorical fictions from the Scottish hacks are being passed off as realistic scenarios is seriously depressing…I mean how low do these people stoop? Do they actually believe the scheidt they peddle? Now that der Hun is up against the wall we see the full extent of their myth making capacity…how far were they prepared to go during the Moonbeam years of hun domination?
The Daily Record and Sun read like fairytales for children.
What would Scottish football be like if the Hun Implosion took down the SFA and the succulent hacks with them?
jungle jam67 on 14 March, 2012 at 12:54 said:
Afternoon bhoys
For some of the more in the know crew.
If ra gers fail to meet the euro registration details for season 2012-2013.
Then do not get set up as a newco before then would it have to be 3 complete years as a member club making it 4 years in total out of euro participation ?
Jam67
+++++
As I understand it, there has to be three years continuous registration prior to license application date (March 31st) which, if someone can confirm that, would mean that if a NewCo were formed at the end of the current season, then their three years continuous registration would fall on (end of) May 2015, thus missing the boat for Euro football 2015/16.
Basically, 4 years out of Europe, depending on when the new club is formed and registered.
Che 12.57
Genius, pure genius.
Excuse my ignorance but when referring to the media, what does MSM stand for ?
Paul67 ……. Not sure I understand your comment
” Mr Young suggested Rangers EBTs “could actually prove, bizarrely, to be one of the great coups of all time”……… coup ?
what a job your doing on all this, sir….!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Incidently, was listening to BBC news there…….they referred to him as david murray, not SIR david murray ……… mmmmmmm…….