Yesterday’s win at Fir Park was huge for Celtic’s season but we should caution against talk of a corner being turned. The team possessed the resilience (and Irish magician) to come from behind and beat the team who were second in the league, but we have been here before.
The Motherwell goal will cause Neil Lennon particular concern. After losing a goal to an early corner kick against Rennes on Thursday, it seems impossible to believe that the team switched off at another corner kick, but only Beram Kayal was alert to the threat of Motherwell taking a short corner, and he was already covering a threat.
Organisational discipline is as important as having better players to the outcome of many football games.
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11 corners to Motherwell. No goals conceded. The goal that was conceded was “open play” and would have been avoided had Matthews joined the rest of the defence in moving out, regardless of the fact we had only a single player defending the short corner.
2 corners to Celtic, one goal scored.
Looks like the zonal marking system worked a lot better than the man-marking system.
Also noticed a few goals conceded at corners in the EPL when man-marking was employed.
BlantyreKev says:
7 November, 2011 at 13:18
‘It also allows you to cover the posts. When man marking you must leave 2 players free to mark the posts.’
Only if someone is marking the person taking the corner.
Otherwise it’s one, not two.
And unless the oppostion have left no one at the back it shouldn’t be a problem.
Lurgan53,
I take it back. Ive just went and watched Murderwell’s goal again.
For me there are 2 issues:
1. we get caught schoolboy-error of a 2-on-1 out at the corner itself.
2. Adam Matthews is slow coming out.
Had we had another player out – kayal started to go then retreated to front post (on keeper’s shout perhaps?) – the short corner and subsequent cross would have been prevented.
Additionally had Matthews been out in the same line as rest of his team-mates, then 3, yes 3 well players would have been off-side.
As it was Higdon who had hardly moved once the initial kick was taken, had simple task of heading home.
Also noted that despite my initial post re zonal/non zonal, we had 9 men (excluding the keeper) in the box to defend the corner. 4 of them were marking “space. But the others were marking a player.
Mastjorvic, Rogne and Sammi, our 3 tallest players, were all standing in a line in the 6 yrd box marking no-one.
Kayal and Matthews on the posts. (although Matthews had a well player beside him).
Another point perhaps worth noting was that Higdon was standing immediately in front of Forster with no-one marking him, immediatley prior to the corner taking place. Humphries was also standing completely unmarked around 15 yds out in the box.
Forrest did not appear to be marking anyone – although i would hazard a a guess, based on his positioning, that he was there to close down/mark a late run from a well player standing outside the box.
Anyway, as I say on this one, for me it was down to the 2 mistakes i mentioned initially and nothing to do really with zonal/man-marking.
HAIL! HAIL!
Token
The reporting of Adam and his sectarian breach has been scandalous by the media of this ‘One Nation’. I can well imagine the headlines if it were a Celtic player.
I wonder how much money rangers will have taken off them today in court…
BlantyreKev says:
7 November, 2011 at 13:18
Read your post after submitting mine. I see we are in agreement.
Stands to reason better players, better teams will do better zonal marking, which illustrates the McManus, Caldwell et all past endeavours.
We still lack quality in the back four, regardless of tactics.
bournesouprecipe says:
7 November, 2011 at 13:30
I think it’s more to do with the cohesiveness of the team than individual talent.
2010 Never Again
I see the man with a thousand faces and many log ins is with us all once again.
He who was never to return ever again. Never ever, not ever once. Is once again with us.
He who has been bullied and harassed and whos (shady) character has been subject to constant ridicule and disdain.
He of the hun friendly persuasion.
He of the Steven Naismith fan club
He of the lets subtly stick it to Celtic disposition
Ladies and gentlemen I give you….(drum roll)…….the man with a plan….the man with multiple personalities….the man who would have you believe he is a Tim…..the total highland dancer and absolute phoney….the one and only……..battyboy <;-))
ASonOfDan – Indeed.
Apparently Grant Adam – brother of Charlie ‘Charlie Adam’ Adam, felt it necessary to make known his views on the Pope in front of two policemen outside the pretentious Corinthian nightclub. Those views were allegedly vituperative.
What I wonder is: why are the peepil so obsessed with the Pope? What has the pontiff ever done to them? Why get into an ecumenical discussion outside a nightclub?
The Pope visited Britain recently and never said one bad thing about Rangers FC. In fact, he urged us to pray for and help the poor. (thumbsup)
Have to admit that whilst my own preference is old fashioned, man-for man-marking, with 2 on the posts (also like the additional one in front, one behind on really tall/good header of the ball opponents if they go front post), both concepts have their pros and cons.
Dont have the time (or to be honest the inclination at this moment) to go in depth on that just now but the answer probably does lie as Kev says somewhere in the middle……and the ability of both sets of players!
HAIL! HAIL!
Token
Interesting post from RTC [edit]
Paulie Walnuts says:
07/11/2011 at 1:17 pm
Re JJB, gossip is currently in circulation that a substantial sum due to be paid by them to Rangers has been arrested in their hands by a creditor of Rangers.
I played Amateur league, and one of the best centre halves I ever saw or played with was only about 5ft 6 inches tall. But, and this is the crux, his timing was magnificent. He was also built like the proverbial brick s*** house and was the team enforcer. I was only a kid, but he talked me through games and was inspirational to the team. I don’t see anyone at the moment like that at Celtic.
Kingoh,
ha ha……I’d have a good go at stopping you too ya lanky big freak of nature
;-)
HAIL! HAIL!
Token
philvisreturns
Exactly, just what I said in work to a couple of the underprivileged. I would never consider shouting obscenities about auld Lizzie just because I got asked to leave a pub.
I hop rangers do nothing, as it would confirm to everyone what their true position is on sectarianism.
Irrespective of whether its zonal marking or man marking its all dependent on the player(s) doing their jobs correctly, clearly thats not happening, the Rennes goal proved that again…….
If its not working, it shows no sign of working, then its time to fixit,
is it beyond the pre match team talk to identify who picks up who at corners?
guys found the problem with our zonal marking bet we are putting players in a colour they do not like and on a Saturday they all want to stand in the green zone with no one in the blue zone. Mark the blue zone and we will be sorted. simples
‘Training methods to develop zonal marking include the coloured zones and the 5-metre rope. The coloured zone is set up by having certain colours set out in sections of the pitch, each player will be put in the coloured section and will not be allowed to leave it. The 5-metre rope is a piece of equipment where the four defenders are attached by a rope which means they are used to staying and working together.’
hamiltontim says:
7 November, 2011 at 13:19
—
Nail on the head mate
The number of fouls per booking is a more revealing ratio
of course then there are all the fouls that go unpunished…
It would seem they are pointing to those charts a little too quickly and maybe all part of the big plan.
HH
M
Interesting blog
http://defensiveminded.wordpress.com/2011/08/07/barcelonas-zonal-marking-at-corners/
Barca zonal mark but leave the posts uncovered.
I listened to Guilleme Balague talking about Barca in general. Utterly fascinating. He says they are taught from young that there are 8 zones on the pitch and depending on your position only some of them will apply to your own play. He says you have to imagine the pitch divided into 8 squares/zones. You must never leave a team mate in one of the squares on his own and you generally should never find yourself in a zone that is not one of your own. I’d love to be able to find the reference, amazing reading, as significant as Cruyff and the Dutch’s total football.
RFC back in court today with Capita Trustees wanting paid…
Oh, and then there’s that little other matter…
The FTT(T) started back today.
The glass has gone up to half full for me. I didn’t see the game on Thursday, but I was encouraged by the thought of Sammi playing wide left, and us actually having a linking player in the middle (Paddy). Then yesterday we played pretty much the same formation. However yesterday, we continued to punt high balls up to Sammi. Until Paddy came on there was no plan b. It worked for a while, but once Motherwell figured it out (to cover Sammi or the wide run of Stokes,) then we had almost no threat. We were very route 1. So we have gone from playing Samaras up front and punting him high balls, to playing him wide and punting high balls. That’s not progress.
OK, it was a tough game and we got no protection. Then to revert to the 4-2-4 /4-4-2 system of the last few years was a little bit of desperation. Yes, Paddy got us out of jail, but you can’t rely on that. What it also showed was that even playing a team of hammer throwers, even with no protection from the referee, showing a bit of ability and playing the ball on the deck can win games. Credit to NL for making a change, but we still got out of jail I felt. Glass half full, just.
Big Big Big result…
When was the last time we won 2 must win games on the trot?
Paddy again
The problem with CQN is that it doesn’t understand the problem, if you get my drift. The Pope can’t get to sleep at night worrying about how to get his hands on Our Wee Ulster. He’s been at it for years. Meanwhile his agents, planted at Ipox, made the good directors of that dignified club (copyright W.Smith) forget to pay tax like the rest of the benighted citizens of these islands. Stands to reason, dunnit?
philvis
vituperative
haha
class !!
the things one learns via CQN, never ceases to amaze me
examples….
obfuscate
sycophant
meritocratic
:)
ernie lynch
I also get the feeling we’d see posts castigating Danny Majstorovic for ‘losing his man’, if we played an unfashionable man marking game.
How come the ‘know it all’ or ‘only man that matters’, hasn’t got it right from one week, to the next – What happens on the training ground
where we never seem to improve on defending set pieces, and corners? – rotten system, no coaching, or just Bosman type defender.
Over the piece St Johnstone, Killie, Hearts, Rangers, Hibs ( this season alone ) – good enough? – how many combinations of zone marking back fours
– must be nearly 20.
Any surprise we’re struggling even against well organised SPL ‘fodder’?
BlantyreKev says:
7 November, 2011 at 13:46
thatll be why rangers go man for man, the inability to count
“coisty whits efter four”
and he doesn’t even know how wrong he is
Blantyre Kev, would love to read that if you find it.
When you watch the european teams at Celtic Park they move as one as if they are tied together. They close down the opostion as one moving from side to side never any space or players in the wrong place. I watched the Barca the developemnt game and there young boys did the same.
Then you watch us, we have indivduals closing down the ball who are easily bypassed as their team mates are either standing still or in the wrong area of the pitch.
Modren well organised SPL fodder is rubbish.
TopCorner – It’s a perfectly cromulent word. :) (thumbsup)
TTT
On zonal marking “Get a jersey, I’ve never heard of fresh air scoring a goal”
Tommy Gemmell Lisbon Lion
“Organisational indiscipline” Was I the only one who thought that was a reference to Motherwell’s behaviour? I’m certainly concerned that we’ll faced more such organised indiscipline in future matches.
Sliced corned beef is the greatest thing since sliced bread.
ernie lynch says:
7 November, 2011 at 13:17
Thats how I’d do it too. Man on each post and go man for man after. Let them pick the snotters out of that.
As BSR says – I think we need better players to do the zonal thing.
Anyways – if I was the atticking team I’d put the ball into a particular zone and let 4/5 attackers go after it. If I understand the zonal thing properly that’d be 4 / 5 attackers up against 1 defender. Sorted!!
This tactic thing is wee buns.
Bournesouprecipe -how many fingers have you got left after openin’ the ole tin of Fray Bentos?
hierarchy of risk control….E.R.I.C.P.D.
No1 on the list…..ELIMINATE the risk !!
i.e…..
don’t give away any corners in the first place
(and certainly not cheap ones !)
http://www.tutopia.co.uk/nebosh/ericpd.htm
In my opinion, zonal marking is a crazy way of defending corners and yes it is very much apart of the Celtic game these days.
Watch how we line up for a corner. One player on each post, three along the 6 yard line and two on the penalty spot.
The main problem with zonal marking is it allows the attackers to move without hindrance, at speed to the spot they wish to intercept the ball.
For instance, two or three moving, as the ball is hit, to the front post, blocking the defenders.
When you are running unopposed AT SPEED, from the 18 yard line to the 6 yard line, you have built up enough momentum to literally BURY the defender as you jump for the ball.
He has to try and out muscle/jump you from a STANDING position.
Leave out the goals scored against us for a minute, and think of all the headers won by opposition this season alone, from corners. We rarely win the initial header.
Look back at the Rennes game last week. They won 4 more headers from corners, unopposed, AFTER they had already scored.
If you don’t agree with my opinion, well and good, that’s what this blog is for. But please refrain from jumping down my virtual throat. It’s got to the stage on this blog where one is afraid to open one’s virtual mouth for fear of getting a virtual kicking.
Slán tamaill.
DBBIA
What do we want?
An end to obesity,
When do we want it?,
after dinner”
BOURNESOUP
Fray Bentos corn beef tin = General Galtieri’s revenge