As we discussed recently, there is zero point in you and me (or Celtic) claiming prejudice in refereeing, supporting evidence simply does not exist. Bias is different, although it remains difficult to sustain with the hoary old “honest mistakes” retort. The SFA defence for the Goldson incident is already in, although it does not cross the threshold set by the rules in my interpretation.
As we also touched on recently, we are all biased: you, me and even referees – all of us, without exception. That means we will interpret incidents differently. The Newco penalty on Monday being a perfect example. Sakala’s foot landed on Carl Starfelt, how can Starfelt be penalised, many of us asked? If it was the other way about, we would all have claimed the penalty, correctly.
Claims of bias are easy to defend at any given incident (see ‘honest mistakes’, above). It is in the aggregate you get a picture of what is going on. Since promotion to the Scottish Premiership in 2016, Newco’s penalty stats have differed from Celtic’s in a remarkable way.
In that period, Newco had to score 9.0 non-penalty goals for each penalty awarded. Celtic have had to score 11.8 non-penalty goals for each penalty awarded, 31% more than Newco.
Celtic conceded 5.1 non-penalty goals for each penalty awarded against them. Newco conceded 10.9 non-penalty goals for each penalty awarded against them, an incredible 212% higher figure. The sample size of 6.5 years football is sufficient to expect random clusters to even out.
The Goldson incident on Monday is neither here nor there, it affected the outcome of a game but will not change the outcome of the season. What should concern us is that a normal distribution of penalties decisions over 248 games (per team) does not exist.
As I said, there is no prejudice, but we are all biased. The most successful clubs often see neutrals want them to lose, which is normal. Celtic the most successful club in domestic football anywhere in the world in recent seasons, decent people will want us taken down a peg. Referees, on the other hand, need to have a frank look at the penalty stats. There is an anomaly with one glaring explanation.
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Good evening all from the Victoria Bar. I trust that ye are all hale and hearty and ready for a great day out at the Shipbank on Friday.
bournesouprecipe on 4th January 2023 4:38 pm
Nick Walsh rolls up at Parkhead on Saturday Kevin Clowncy on VAR
What larks csc
And the hits just keep on coming….
markiebhoy on 4th January 2023 4:40 pm
I’ve made this point before about the cheating and we could stop it in a heartbeat.
The club would only need to indicate to the SFA that they were considering not taking away tickets as they believed the paying public were being decieved. Take Kilmarnock as a prime example. They hover around the Profit / Loss mark all the time. I believe Celtic supporters put around 250,000 into their coffers each year in league games alone. How long could they survive without it? I personally would take great delight in finding out. We can go on being blatantly cheated or do something about it. But the SFA are relying on using the loyalty of the supporters against the club and the supporters themselves, clever eh?
————-
There was chat on here years ago about a boycott of Killie away after that time they refused to sell tickets to Celtic fans.
The comment from those that attended the away games was that they’d never not go and support the team.
You’re right, the only way Scottish football changes, is for the Celtic fans to do it, and the only power Celtic fans have is the money they give all clubs in Scotland.
Easy fix you’d think. Or at least worth a try.
celticbynumbers
@Alan_Morrison67
According to the Yorkshire Whistle there have been 7 incorrect penalty calls affecting the top 2 in SPFL this season:
1. 20th Aug – Colak given a pen for TRFC away to Hibs – simulation
2. 27th Aug – Watson (Ross Co) blocks Wright cross with hand – no pen to TRFC
I have been following Celtic for over 65 years,nothing has changed.We have been cheated by referees since time began.The current board will do nothing. The solution is in the hands of the supporters,boycott all away games and all games at Hampden hurt them all financially.
Hail Hail.
VAR and Scottish refs
As well as the bias conscious or otherwise when it bumps with a thud into incompetence, the result is what we are witnessing now.
Earlier poster noted how the Huns play for penalties, Gio I believe attempted to stamp this out but Beale is a knob and diving is fully back on the agenda.
Beaton wasn’t falling for the Huns falling about outside the box and he sort of wasn’t allowing for the full scale fouling as per Madden , which makes the pen award difficult to comprehend: he knows Sakala is a diver but didn’t get a VAR or go to the monitor…. dead heat between bias and incompetence
Conclusion of our review with the refs is that they cannot be trusted with var and ironically the tool designed to help them may lead to their removal from top flight fixtures
THE_HUDDLE on 4TH JANUARY 2023 4:51 PM
markiebhoy on 4th January 2023 4:40 pm
I’ve made this point before about the cheating and we could stop it in a heartbeat.
The club would only need to indicate to the SFA that they were considering not taking away tickets as they believed the paying public were being decieved. Take Kilmarnock as a prime example. They hover around the Profit / Loss mark all the time. I believe Celtic supporters put around 250,000 into their coffers each year in league games alone. How long could they survive without it? I personally would take great delight in finding out. We can go on being blatantly cheated or do something about it. But the SFA are relying on using the loyalty of the supporters against the club and the supporters themselves, clever eh?
————-
There was chat on here years ago about a boycott of Killie away after that time they refused to sell tickets to Celtic fans.
The comment from those that attended the away games was that they’d never not go and support the team.
You’re right, the only way Scottish football changes, is for the Celtic fans to do it, and the only power Celtic fans have is the money they give all clubs in Scotland.
Easy fix you’d think. Or at least worth a try.
…………………………………………………………………………………………………………..
It was supporters, mainly of Aberdeen and Dun Utd that stopped the huns going straight back into the top division, so just the threat of withdrawing money works, sadly the Celtic support won’t contemplate anything similar, I well remember the debates at the time re a supporter boycott, I actually found it quite sad that Celtic supporters were willing to pay to be cheated, but it takes all sorts.
Boycott would acheive zilch.
These clubs are happy enough to have thousands of empty seats everytime the glasgow clubs turn up.
This at the insistance of their own supporters,
Who knows, if you know the blue meanies or the green brigaders are not going to be in town maybe you would take your kids to the big games, and be more hopeful of a result.
What is the point, it would not hurt the SFA.
Saint Stivs
You can’t say that with any certainty as it has never been tried. Just keep on being mugged.
If you shopped in ASDA and they said at the till ” that’s 20 quid but I see you follow Celtic so it’s 30 quid,”
would you go back?
Could be 2 Korean strikers incoming, some cryptic SK sports media posts….
The idea of refs disclosing their allegiance is an interesting one.
More of an issue, in my opinion, is the *culture* within scottish football. The pro rangers then sevco bias which in institutional in nature.
Refs, commentators, broadvasters are all in scope.
One only has to see the reaction to the very few ref decisions in favour of Celtic and how they are handled (we won a questionable shy once) versus that which follows ridiculously pro hun decisions. Denial, gaslighting, ridicule, any manner of nonsense excuses.
MARKIEBHOY on 4TH JANUARY 2023 5:34 PM
Saint Stivs
You can’t say that with any certainty as it has never been tried. Just keep on being mugged.
————–
I dont get tickets for away games, so I am not paying anything to them.
are you boycotting already ? are you part of a group that does not go to away games ?
Saint Stivs on 4th January 2023 5:52 pm
I dont get tickets for away games, so I am not paying anything to them.
are you boycotting already ? are you part of a group that does not go to away games ?
—————
That was the whole point of the discussion.
Celtic fans pay money to other clubs
Celtic fans greatest power for change is to withhold money
Celtic fans wont stop doing that
Ekbhoy
It was me who raised the playing fir pens and your point about Gio/Beale is a great one.
The game we lost NY 2020 at home was a classic display of fouling/diving and fooling the ref. Jullienn was suckered.
I noticed a lack of cheating under Gio and less gym bunny players too
Maybe he was after more pace, less fight
Good guy I think
CONEYBHOY on 4TH JANUARY 2023 6:09 PM
Good guy I think
I agree . Less hunnish than many we’ve seen . There’s been more trash talk from Beale in the few weeks he’s been back than from GVB in his entire tenure .
Based on Celtic’s history, perhaps we shouldn’t use the word Boycott?😀
Genuine question – one bourne from the last 10 years experiences.
—————
When financial Armageddon was predicted cos there would be no huns entity in the top division, or indeed the top 3 tiers, how many clubs really suffered financially ?
How many were impacted enough that they went out of business ?
Whats that skippy ? None.
There is an argument the biggest financial impact was on celtic, the 10,000 less season ticket holder (old firm fans even).
Several of our bigger clubs have spent time in lower divisions without the visitis of the glasgow two, they survived.
Some even seen home attendnaces increase. Many reduced our allocations.
Match day revenues are needed for sure, but they would all like that it was their own supporters turning up.
We are circa 34% of total revenues generated for scottish football, its sponsorship and tv money we impact the most now,
Boycotting would do nothing.
Saint Stivs
I have been to 2 away games in over 50 years of watching Celtic – both at Dundee because I was invited to the games by board members. I see most of the other teams in Scotland as alligned to the Hun and would never give them any money. I’m delighted to hear you don’t attend away games. It’s only encouraging the nonsense. The club will do nothing so it’s down to the fans. I would like Paul 67 to put up a poll to see how many would support a Bhoycott. Then send the result to the SFA either way. Either way they would know what to do.
Collectively we have to put up or shut up.
Attendance Avoidance –
One group of fans opts out of Celtic boycott plan
24th January 1994
Share
THE appearance of consensus among three bodies representing up to
30,000 Celtic supporters disintegrated yesterday when the
long-established Celtic Supporters Association refused to back a boycott
of games.
After a two-hour meeting in a Glasgow hotel, the younger radical Celts
For Change grouping called on all Celtic fans to ”withdraw their
financial support” for the club from the next home game, against
Kilmarnock on February 26.
Although spokesmen for Celts For Change declined to use the term
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”boycott”, they said they were hoping to organise alternative
entertainment for Celtic fans at the same time as the league match.
The third body, the Affiliation of Registered Celtic Supporters Clubs,
which is conducting a ballot on the boycott issue, was left expressing
its disappointment that no agreement could be reached.
Chairman Peter Rafferty said: ”Any boycott is only surmised until we
get a result from our members.”
He added that the attendance at yesterday’s game against Dundee United
suggested that the boycott had started anyway.
Representatives of the supporters association were the first to leave
the meeting and refused to share a platform with the other bodies.
President Jim Brodie accused Celts For Change of coming to the meeting
with a fixed position.
He said: ”There was no common ground between the three groups. Celts
For Change are driving a wedge between supporters.”
He said the association agreed that changes were required at Celtic
Park, but was bound by its constitution and rules. ”We are not about to
damage Celtic Football Club,” he said.
He was suspicious of the motives in the call for a boycott, which he
believed was designed to force the club into bankruptcy so that its
bankers, the Bank of Scotland, would insist on changes on the board.
Moving to pre-empt any criticism that the association was in the
pocket of the directors, Mr Brodie said: ”We are not employees of the
Celtic board. We are a financially independent organisation started 50
years ago. We were the first to pass a vote of no confidence in the
board, and that stands today.”
Both the association and the affiliation claim to represent 12,000
fans. Mr Matt McGlone of Celts For Change — which says its membership
approaches 4000 but claims to represent a wider body of opinion —
conceded yesterday that Celtic supporters groups were split.
He said: ”We didn’t come here with any preconceived ideas but as a
committee we had taken a decision. We now realise we cannot negotiate
with these bodies.”
Celtic director Michael Kelly said last night: ”All of the directors
share the frustration of the fans, but action against the club can only
make it more difficult to achieve the success on the field that we all
desire and are working for.
”The supporters would be well advised to heed the opinion of the
experienced official supporters association who have been with the club
through the good times and the bad.”
* Sacked Celtic chief executive Terry Cassidy’s claim against the
board for #143,000 will be heard at Glasgow Sheriff Court today.
MARKIEBHOY on 4TH JANUARY 2023 6:18 PM
Saint Stivs
I have been to 2 away games in over 50 years of watching Celtic
———————
or Celtic PLC could stop accepting tickets, just say no thanks, and let the SFA know why. We think your referees are biased, and that VAR is not implemted the same, or using the same processes as other more succesful leagues.
Clubs would once again then try selling directly to the away fans.
At the very least Celtic PLC should say we dont sell tickets for Hampden games, we wont take allocations, you SFA or League will need to do it for yourself.
I read not that long ago about a semi at Hampden we did boycott back in the 70s, Hibs maybe, about pricing not referees.
There will be 30,000+ Celtic fans at Hampden for the league cup semi final.
They will probably witness another anti-celtic var decision being made.
Who says fix fitba empty hampden, that is the solution there.
Saint Stivs
Your counter arguement is perfectly sound and you have backed it up with facts. But what do we do? I’ve had enough of it and we are in the winning position. It’s actually boring now being cheated. If Fergus was still in charge he would’t be taking this.
!!BADA BING!! @ 3:33 PM,
There is a brass neck defiance among Scottish football officials as they know that if they do the “right” thing the SFA referee operations department will have their back.
That’s why Ange won’t speak out anymore I’m sure he was forewarned but Ange spoke out a couple of times with his views on VAR in the early days.
Back in November at Parkhead, after a terrible first half display by the referee in the Ross County game, where the official allowed their strong arm tactics to go with inpunity, the game stood at nil, nil and Ange collared the referee at half time
Five minutes after halftime the ball ricocheted off Matt O’Riley’s elbow outside the box, despite the fact there was nothing Matt could do about the close range bounce and the fact it was outside the box the referee went to VAR and a penalty was awarded
That day Ange learned what happens when you collar a Scottish Official and he has never spoken out since
Hail Hail
Saint Stivs
You must be psychic! You answered the question before I asked it – Another possible path to protest and maybe more effective
I think there has been a massive overreaction to the game on Monday.
The handball should have been given; no doubt.
On another day Johnston gets 2 yellows; Morelos wins 3-4 extra free kicks vs CCV
Beaton had his best game overall in this fixture.
As Ekbhoy (who i think is a coach) says, he ignored a lot of diving
I was happy as a pig in shite when we equalised, still am
I agree with St Stivs; no-one will boycott; especially those who have fixed it to go with their mates. Great day out, why spoil it?
I watched the whole game again today.
Here is what I do find incredible,
Even being a biased official, what emboldens you to look at the two incidents and call them both in favour of rangers.
What allows you to play the cheating celtic game, knowing the outcomes ?
No censure, no explanations, no gevernance required.
Cheats all the way to the top of the organisation.
Got their backs, and their lodge numbers.
THE EXILED TIM on 4TH JANUARY 2023 3:56 PM
Dr John being silenced said it all for me.
Gotta keep the OF bandwagon going come what may, we can scweem and scweem all we want, it will be to no avail.
Our greatest ever manager said more than 60 years ago…..well we all know what he said.
==============
Dr John personifies Celtic eunuchry.
Until the club do something and stop denying what we see in front of our eyes,no action will be taken.lets keep pretending private channels are pursuing an answer(before its booted into long grass
Whereas we had the refs trying to lie at time of refs strike now we are getting obvious evidence weekly
in front of us.
Hny k to all at the cave
HH
I wouldn’t give a funkeys muck if the UDA, the OO, and the UVF were running the SFA, if we had fair and honest refereeing on the park, that would do for me.
I really would like Ange to be more outspoken on what goes on.
Been here 18 months, I can see why Scottish referees dont get appointed to world cups.
Better in every other country i managed in.
Along those lines.
Just say it out.
absolutely no use going on the radio and complaining about individual decisions – football teams the world over are on the brunt of mistakes and bias. The ONLY stat that matters is patterns and distributions – this is the only way to position the argument.
Agree with earlier comment about VAR – it shines a light on the bias issue and removes “honest mistake, refs dont get to see slo mo” excuse. So far, VAR shows assistant refs looking for ways to hurt celtic and benefit rangers – even tho its only just been introduced , its blatant. Of course, it will balance out through meaningless penalties toward end of season.
On the game, we lost connection due to o’reilly form (hes been off it for few weeks) and kyogo inability to hold onto an “out” ball. We need a striker to hold the ball up – Gia would have been a better option initially – bring on the pace of kyogo when the game opens up.
Finally, we need height or a jumper in the defense – Morelos should have scored 2 headers and Goldson had a look unchallenged. Maybe the new signings help in that area.
Happy with the result but i can tell Ange is furious with our performance – showcase opportunity missed.
Happy new year!
Cheers AT, it’s bloody cold here just now, fine and warm in the day time but nice and cosy in the cave tho.
It is what it is and it’s money, our board only care about the money, I personally believe that the OF is NOT how we make more money, but that’s only my opinion.
CONEYBHOY @ 6:34 PM,
Yes, Beaton played a very good game, I think they got the first yellow well into the game and were penalised for their fouls and their divinng antics ignored
However he got two decisions wrong that could’ve changed the result of the match
Hail Hail
It is not clear rangers should have been awarded a penalty, the rangers player stood on Starfelt – no VAR scrutiny
It is clear Goldson handled the ball in the box – minimum VAR scrutiny
therein lies the bias.
Chairboy
I think Beaton saw the pen himself and gave it. I agreed (in the modern game). Showed authority
He didn’t see the hamdball penalty, nether did I(need eye test)
He passed it to Collim and he bottled it. We pretty much agree on here that Collum is a creeping Jesus, lickspittle so it’s on him IMO
Posted months ago, get foreign referees to VAR games,from different leagues……
PETETHEBEAT @ 2.37
PETE, sorry for delay in answering, been playing nurse.
At the time of the foreign refs there was a ‘shortage’ of refs because some of them called off at the last minute (been got at somehow?). Anyway I think that was the explanation for the same guy doing our game followed by D U/ Thems on the Sunday (though of vourse that game was cancelled).
Would we be allowed to moan about foreign refs ?
I do remember a few moans during our European adventure.
Be careful what you wish for .
HH
GP
That French ref vs Madrid; definitely